Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 23:33, 25 December 2007

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Pronunciation of Nzinga Mbande

From your comments back in February it seems like you may know about how this name should be pronounced. I have tried to put it into IPA as requested, but the English orthography version is not clear to me. Is it "zhin-ga" with an 'n' AND a 'g', or "zhinga" with a 'ng' as in 'sing'? In IPA ?

Thanks in advance for your help --Slp1 13:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Plea for some help

I've been working on a number of pages in Misplaced Pages, mostly relating to pre-1900 Central Africa, which has been my speciality for over 30 years, and on which I can claim considerable expertise from reading all the relevant primary materials in all the relevant languages. I've authored two books on the Kingdom of Kongo and probably 30 articles and I teach African history at Boston University.

I want to make the Misplaced Pages treatment of this area as good as it can possibly be, since I realize that it so widely used as a resource by students across the world. I used to write entries for print encyclopedias and handbooks which began proliferating in the 1990s becasue I believed it was important to get African history out to students in particular who had access to limited resources. Misplaced Pages promises to do what none of these resources could do, and so I have abandoned the print media. So much for the emotional introduction!

My current concern is with the kinglist of the kingdom, and I am really not able to fix what I see is a problem. I created a kinglist for Kongo, which appears at the bottom of the main article, and also on a second site called "List of Manikongos" (or approximately that) that is cross referenced in the other links section of the main article on the Kingdom of Kongo. This other list, which was created before my interventions in the development of this section, is, I believe not as accurate as the one I have generated, but it is set up as an "African royal family" and has the nice feature at the bottom of each entry that has "predecessor" and "successor" sections, that allow someone purusing the thread of successive kings to go from one reign to the next.

I would like to substitute my kinglist for this one, so that I can gradually fill in content in the kings under the correct names and with correct dates, etc. However, I cannot do that with the present list because it is incorrect, uses French forms of the kings' names and does not always have the right names in the right order.

How can I fix this or what do I have to do and can anyone help me with the mechanics of doing this? I have tried to be respectful of the work of others who edit this site, and am reluctant to just try overthrowing the older king list, but at the same time I feel frustrated in trying to make the site work and be strictly accurate.

It is problematic I think to have several competing versions of the king list, unless there is a real controversy about the topic among those who have studied the documents, and even then it needs to be gathered under one roof or clearly labeled. There may be issues that could be controversial in this, but the controversial issues are not the ones that make the other king lists inaccurate.

Beepsie 14:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Article Speedy Deletion Warning

Welcome to Misplaced Pages! We welcome your help to create new content, but your recent additions (such as Pedro I of Kongo) are considered nonsense. Please refrain from creating nonsense articles. If you want to test things out, edit the sandbox instead. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Boricuaeddie 18:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

War of 1622

Hi, beepsie. you may not remember me, but we talked a while back. I was wondering if i could get your help on something. I'm currently doing a massive edit of the Kingdom of Kongo article. Check it out if you get some free time to see what's been done lately (found the kongo coat of arms, added table). Right now i'm trying to put references in for the page and i'm having trouble verifying some of the info during the war of 1622. You made an edit on May 15 of this year that Pedro II of Kongo defeated the Portuguese and their Imbangala allies in or near Mbanda Kasi. I'm a newbie to Central African history so generally I take your word for it in matters such as this. However, when scouring the net and my own impressive library of african history books, I couldn't find any info regarding a Kongo victory during this conflict. Online I found one reference saying Pedro II did declare Angola an enemy and marched out to meet the force. The source also says the portuguese got wind of this and vacated Kongo territory before any battle took place. Can you please fill me in or where you learned that Pedro fought and won a battle against the Portuguese and also your info on where this battle took place. I know the edit took place a while back, but i'd really appreciate your help. I wan't to make the Kongo page as excellent as possible so my references must be air tight. Thnx in advance.Scott Free 20:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Kimpa Vita

Thnx for bringing that to my attention. I just fixed it. don't know why some people got to be so stupid. thnx 4 finally getting back with me. did u ever come across the source for that battle i asked about in 1622. I've been working every weekend on the kongo page (i haven't put any edits up just yet tho) and have amassed a huge amount of info. You're welcome to it, just hit me with ur email and i'll send u my PDF files (I have JSTOR articles i get from my university). When you get a second, check out the Kongo Civil War page I put up. It probably still needs some tweaking but I think its a good start. Holla back.Scott Free 15:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Mbanda Kasi

Hi :) Just read your comments on the Kongo talk page. I just want to say you are a Prince among Princes, my friend and thank you for your contributions. I can't wait to pick up the book. I tried to order it like a month a go from my local Borders but they said it wouldn't be available to like september. Thnx for filling us in on the battle. Feel free to put that section back into the article if you haven't already. I'm not even close to finishing the makeover (30% done). At this rate and with your help tho, the Kongo page may just surpass the Mali Empire page. Take care and god bless.Scott Free 15:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Kandas

Just finished looking at the kanda page. Looks good to me. Thnx for ur contrib. I also appreciate the heads up on the changes. But please, don't fill obligated to tell me. You've proven you more than know what ur talking about. Plus I have the page on watch along with all articles i'm messing with. I'm not sure if ur new to wiki, but in case u are, u can click the watch tab above any article so u can observe any changes to it. Also, make sure to sign your comments. Just click the "Scott Free 16:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)" link below where it says "Sign your username". That makes it easier to get back to u. Once again, thnx for your contribution. You've made the page far better than I did. I just wanted to provide a jump off point. There's so much Kongo history to work on! Take care and keep up the good work :) Scott Free 16:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Other Kandas

Hi its me again. It looks like u've already hit up the other kanda articles (Kimpanzu, Kinlaza, Agua Rosada) which is great as i'm swamped with work right now. While i'm online I did have one question for u. There is a page for the House of Nsundi and I plan on moving the page (or title) to the name of the kanda. I am confused however on whether that should be Kinkanga or Kinkanga a Mvika. Which one is more accurate? Please hit me back ASAP.Scott Free 16:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Kanda names

A lot of issues here. We'd like to standardize terminology and all that, it's a fascination we have these days. But folks back then were not as concerned about it--look at all the various ways that things were spelled in the 17th century, not just in English, where there are a dozen ways that Shakespeare signed his own name, but in most other languages. Kongo writers compounded this because they usually wrote in Portuguese. Anyway, our best guess for the third of the contesting families, geracoes, makanda, etc. is Kinkanga a Mvika. This name is used for the house in Bernardo da Gallo's account of Kongo history written in 1710. It is also the Kikongo name of Pedro II, founder of the house/kanda, so it makes sense as a lineage name. But in modern traditions, for example the one in Nkutama a Mvila za Makanda (published first in 1934--BTW, this amazing book is available as a free download on line, although I have not taken the time to figure out how to link these resources to the articles, which is a plague on me). In this account, repeated now as a proverb, it is just called Kinkanga. So it's take your choice.

The names of lineages are in various forms today, some take the two element name of the founder (that would be a given name, plus father's given name), others only the given name element. Still others, however, might take a title (Mfutila, Kapitau) as their name. This latter was true in the 16th century, for in a letter to the Kongolese factor in Sao Tome, Rodrigo de Santa Maria, Pedro I (now overthrown and living protected in a church) wrote to note that Diogo I was chasing down and persecuting everyone of "our family (geracao) of Quibala." Quibala (Kibala) is not a given name, but derives from the Kikongo word mbala, meaning royal court. Beepsie 14:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)Beepsie

Hi. I ran across the kibala kanda as well a while back. What i've been trying to figure out for the longest is what was the kanda of the early kings. Were they all of the Kibala kanda? If so, what was the kanda of Diogo I. I'm assuming it was not Kibala from Pedro's protestations. I've managed to track down and cite the kandas of most pre-civil war (before 1665) awenekongo (List of rulers of Kongo. Could really use your help on the early kings. I was at first under the impression it was a kanda called Nimi. Then I found that there was a Mwene Lukeni represented at the royal court representing the founder (Lukeni lua Nimi). I'm gonna be safe and just remove the Nimi kanda and put back "Early Kings" until we can get this hammered out. Holla back. And thnx for all ur work! Scott Free 14:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

HI Scott, sorry to take so long to get to this. I'm guessing that you've read my article on elite women in early Kongo. I think the problem is that the kandas, as in dynasties descended from a common ancestor really didn't come up in Kongo until after Mbwila with the emergence of the Kimpanzu and Kinlaza. Before that the lineage and descent groups were very flexible and thus resistent to long term naming. The problem you identify, that is the two kandas in contestation in 1550 when Diogo had the inquest into the plot against him by Pedro Nkanga a Mvemba is indeed a problem. Mwene Lukeni is presumably the leader of a descent group, while "nossa geracao de quibala" also seems to relate to a descent group with a name. But I don't think these names were very long lasting, and as you point out were formed by rivals from the same general descent group, often in the same generation. This is not the way the Kimpanzu and Kinlaza worked, for the groups had hardened, and this is what makes the post Mbwila civil war different from the pre civil war Kongo. So I think it's a good idea not to try to organize the kings into lineages before the Kimpanzu-Kinlaza split.

A second question concerns the House of Coilo and the House of Sundi reported by Mateus Cardoso in 1624. These are clearly ancestral units to the Kimpanzu and the Kinkanga a Mvika of Bernardo da Gallo's account, or the three stones tradition which was current in the 20th century. The fact that the three are remembered in tradition tells us that they clearly had legs and when they became fixed in tradition even Kinkanga a mvika, which da Gallo said "fa totalmente a terra" (went totally to the ground) was included. I think these were really intermediate kinship organizations, though notice this, their orientation is geography (Kwili vs Nsundi) rather than kinship, even though their basis was not geography.

Here's what I think. These questions are on the leading edge of thinking about Kongo and right now there is not scholarly opinion on them. So I would say, keep the organization into Houses (for the early sevneteenth century) and Kandas for the late seventeenth through twentieth centuries, and leave the early kings without membership.65.96.237.238 (talk) 14:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Beepsie: Allegations of sockpuppetry can be devastating and hurtful on WP, so it might be an idea to clarify both here and on the user page of 65.96.237.238 that you were using that IP for some editing (either intentionally or accidentally and only if you were, of course...) Alice 22:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Well done!

I hope you won't think it an impertinence if I compliment you for the calm and conciliatory way you are approaching reversions on our Kingdom of Kongo article.

I wish you success in obtaining a compromise position and the answers you seek! Alice 22:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Deflated

I am feeling rather dejected that my revisions on the Kingdom of Kongo article, including my new footnotes and expansions of the 18th century portions are being constantly reverted. I do not see that this work needs to be deleted.Beepsie (talk) 13:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Try not to feel dejected; if your edits were properly sourced then you may wish to start the WP:DISPUTE procedure. Perhaps there are some admins with a special interest in African topics that my be able to assist? Alice 23:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC)