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Revision as of 07:18, 31 December 2007

${\displaystyle \star }$  Some principles governing this talk page  ${\displaystyle \star }$ Please observe Misplaced Pages:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette here. This talk page is my territory, and I assume janitorial responsibility for it. I may, without notice, refactor comments to put like with like, correct indents, or retitle sections to reflect their contents more clearly. While I reserve the right to delete comments, I am normally opposed to doing so and use archives instead. If I inadvertently change the meaning, please contact me! When all else fails, check the edit history. -- Fyslee (collaborate)

${\displaystyle \star }$  Regarding posting (or reposting) of my personal info at Misplaced Pages  ${\displaystyle \star }$ ${\displaystyle \star }$  DON'T DO IT!!  ${\displaystyle \star }$ Lately I have become more sensitive to the posting of personal information about myself here at Misplaced Pages. I am the target of cyberstalking and hate mail from some pretty unbalanced people and regularly receive threats (including occasional death threats). While I don't normally have any reason to hide my true identity, any past revealings by myself should not be construed by others as license to do it here at Misplaced Pages, where only my "Fyslee" tag should be used. While such revealings here have often been done innocently, I still reserve the right to delete such personal information posted here at Misplaced Pages by others. My own and my family's security is at stake here, and I would appreciate support in this matter. Thanks. -- Fyslee (collaborate)

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

Editing controversial articles

Feel free to comment. -- Fyslee / talk 07:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

CAM

Wow! I really have to hand it to you, just being able to tolerate that editing enviroment. --Ronz (talk) 23:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Obvious POV pushing is much easier to deal with than the subtle forms, and is much easier when it is obviously wrong. -- Fyslee / talk 00:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I suppose so. What happens, do they just get blocked after awhile and then new ones show up? --Ronz (talk) 00:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is often the case. We do need editors who are believers in alternative medicine and fringe subjects, but without the religious zeal. We need them because they know these subjects well and can tell the story from that POV. As long as they use V & RS and don't soapbox, they can include a good explanation in the articles. The problem is that it is this religous zeal and refusal to edit NPOV that gets them in trouble. Editors like Dematt, who understands NPOV quite well, are few and far between because too many fringe editors have a tendency to see Misplaced Pages as a vehicle for advocacy. Plenty of other editors of all persuasions have that tendency when they are newbies (I dare say it's rather normal....;-), but many learn quickly and stop violating policies and attempting to misuse it to insert unsourced OR and fight personal agendas that are not shared by V & RS. Not all make it that far and are blocked quickly, while some are downright insidious and sneaky in their disruptiveness and have long careers here that waste enormous amounts of time and keep us from actual editing. The polite ones are the most dangerous, because they use fake politeness to play on being civil while engaging in subtle POV pushing, talk page disruption, and refusal to abide by a consensus that goes against them. They manifest this by politely and endlessly continuing to debate a subject and repeating the same old arguments that have been shot down repeatedly by many editors and admins, and they hope to tire everyone out and in an unguarded moment sneak their edits into the articles in some modified form. Even solid editors and admins like Tim Vickers and MastCell fall for that and compromise, instead of pressing the idiots up against the wall and then blocking them when they crack and reveal their true agenda. The present "peer-reviewed" nonsense is a perfect example of such an editor who refuses to abide by a good consensus against him and his little group of yay-sayers who will also get blocked soon. No need to AGF with any of them, just keep cool and don't get provoked. Tendentious and disruptive editors of this type are the death of Misplaced Pages. -- Fyslee / talk 05:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

You're a little tough on Tim and MastCell. There is an NPOV for these bogus articles, but only from a historical sense. But you have got to love this quote: In other words, the reinforcement delivered (improvement of symptoms) is probably not random, because homeopathy users are more likely to take their remedies when they are feeling the worst, a condition which almost inevitably moves back towards the mean, leading to the impression that homeopathy improved the patient's symptoms. That's why there are zealous believers in this crap. They resort to a treatment for a bad condition, which inevitably improves, and the patient attributes it to the CAM bogosity. But, once you try to repeat that result with a true scientific study, there is failure. The religious zeal of these people is remarkably like what we see with Creationists. Ignore science because it does not fit your world view. This does take energy to fight. OrangeMarlin 07:44, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

You're no doubt right. I'm just not as patient as they are....;-) -- Fyslee / talk 08:25, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Question

Would you explain what CAM is, a link, if available, would be nice? I was asked on my talk page about this and I haven't a clue what it is. Thanks, --CrohnieGal 13:52, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll answer, since maybe Fyslee is skiing a fjord somewhere. CAM is Complementary and alternative medicine. It's the whole group of non-scientific practices that claim to be medicine, such as homeopathy, herbalism, accupuncture, etc.. There is a quote, and I might not have it quite right, but there is no such thing as alternative medicine. There is medicine that has been rigorously tested for safety and efficacy, and there are potentially useful therapies out there that have yet to be tested or have been and failed to prove any usefulness. OrangeMarlin 16:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Well after reading through all of this I came across this too I see that you all have been marked as 'special'. I don't know how you or anyone handles such hostilities like this. This article seems like a rewrite of articles already in use but with a twist. I'm surprise it hasn't been speedy deleted by now. Good luck on the attempt of balance you are trying. --CrohnieGal 14:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I will save some time by simply including a section from the CAM talk page:

Clarification please

N.B.: (These questions are just for John. Give him a good chance to answer the questions before entering this discussion. Please respect this.)

Hi John. I'd like to "pick your brain," so to speak, and get a better understanding of what you mean in this edit summary:

• "This is the CAM article. Not the alternative medicine article. The topics are completely different. See NCCAM and actually study the website." (My emphasis.)

To start this off, let me state where I'm "coming from" on this particular matter. Since all CAM methods are alternative medicine methods and techniques (and nothing else), how can CAM and alternative medicine be "completely different" topics? Of course it's a given to those who really know this subject (as we both do extremely well), that CAM includes only a few alternative medicine methods, not all of them, but still nothing other than them.

Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAM) is an umbrella term for the two manners in which alternative medicine methods are most commonly used:

1. Alternative medicine methods used "Complementary" to mainstream methods:

(a) in combination with them;

(b) in cooperation with them;

(c) by agreement with an (normally) MD, or the MD themselves using them;

(d) often legally because an MD is allowed to practice experimental medicine, although the MD can still be prosecuted for fraud, malpractice, and practicing substandard medicine.

(e) This is the "Collaboration model."

2. Alternative medicine methods used as "Alternatives" to mainstream methods:

(a) instead of them;

(b) often in opposition to them;

(c) often opposed by MDs;

(d) often illegally because of violations of "unlicensed practice of medicine" laws, consumer protection laws, and marketing laws.

(e) This is the "Competition model."

Now what do you think of all this? I have noticed that you have repeatedly claimed that there was a difference and I have been quite puzzled about why you do this.

Please answer these two questions:

A. How can they be "completely different" topics?

(We are talking about precisely the same methods, and the only difference is the setting (a through e).)

B. What is your strategy?

(There must be a reason for your repeated insistence on trying to separate the inseparable, which you claim are "completely different" topics.)

-- Fyslee / talk 06:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I, of course, have already specified above in great detail everything that you are asking for. Yet, I see yet again an absolute total failue to point out one thing that is specifically wrong with this article. -- John Gohde (talk) 12:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't ask two questions if I saw such answers, or was satisfied with them. I have seen alot of repetition of the claim that they are different, but seen no evidence for the claim, and repetition doesn't make the claim true. Please answer both of the questions. You are welcome to copy and paste from above the things you believe apply as previous answers or information. Maybe I missed something. -- Fyslee / talk 15:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am still awaiting answers. -- Fyslee / talk 05:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I entered this discussion long before this entire section of personal attacks was written. My arguments are given above. It is a simple matter of reading the written word above. It is currently section #13.1 which is located between the solid, thick, horizontal bars. -- John Gohde (talk) 14:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not addressing anything else in this article. I am addressing a statement you have made and I want answers to two questions. It's as simple as that. BTW, there is nothing that can even remotely be construed as a personal attack in this section. Please answer the questions. -- Fyslee / talk 23:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The quotes OrangeMarlin is referring to above are covered here:

According to notable skeptics and physicians like Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, James Randi, Marcia Angell, Phil B. Fontanarosa, George D. Lundberg, and Stephen Barrett, the concept of "alternative" is often being misused in a misleading form of marketing, implying something that is far from the case:

• "Alternative has two possible meanings. Correctly employed, it refers to methods that have equal value for a particular purpose. (An example would be two antibiotics capable of killing a particular organism.) When applied to unproven methods, however, the term can be misleading because methods that are unsafe or ineffective are not reasonable alternatives to proven treatment. To emphasize this fact, we place the word "alternative" in quotation marks throughout this book whenever it is applied to methods that are not based on established scientific knowledge." - Stephen Barrett, MD

• "There is no alternative medicine. There is only scientifically proven, evidence-based medicine supported by solid data or unproven medicine, for which scientific evidence is lacking. Whether a therapeutic practice is 'Eastern' or 'Western,' is unconventional or mainstream, or involves mind-body techniques or molecular genetics is largely irrelevant except for historical purposes and cultural interest. As believers in science and evidence, we must focus on fundamental issues-namely, the patient, the target disease or condition, the proposed or practiced treatment, and the need for convincing data on safety and therapeutic efficacy." - Fontanarosa P.B., and Lundberg G.D. "Alternative medicine meets science" JAMA. 1998; 280: 1618-1619.

• "There cannot be two kinds of medicine - conventional and alternative. There is only medicine that has been adequately tested and medicine that has not, medicine that works and medicine that may or may not work. Once a treatment has been tested rigorously, it no longer matters whether it was considered alternative at the outset. If it is found to be reasonably safe and effective, it will be accepted." - Angell M, Kassirer JP, "Alternative medicine--the risks of untested and unregulated remedies." N Engl J Med 1998;339:839.

What is considered alternative changes over time. If and when an approach, initially regarded as "unproven", is proven to be safe and effective, it will be adopted into conventional health care and over time may cease to be considered "alternative".

Thank you, I have this saved on my user page to reread so I understand it all. --CrohnieGal 20:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

References

1. Alternative medicine meets science. Fontanarosa P.B., and Lundberg G.D. JAMA. 1998; 280: 1618-1619.
2. Alternative medicine--the risks of untested and unregulated remedies. Angell M, Kassirer JP. N Engl J Med 1998;339:839.
3. NCCAM -- CAM Basics: What is Cam? Paraphrase

-- Fyslee / talk 19:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Orthomolecular psychiatry

In case you weren't watching the page, orthomolecular psychiatry is getting a lot of attention from a relative noob. I don't have the expertise to fix mistakes, cull POV sources and all the other stuff that needs to be done. Interested? WLU (talk) 20:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly a newbie. I won't get near that editor. It's not worth the grief. Although one of my best friends here in Denmark is a nephew of one of the founders of orthomolecular psychiatry (Dr. Reiter), the subject doesn't interest me that much. On another subject, you may want to take a look at my latest edit at Jim Butler's talk page. -- Fyslee / talk 20:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

So much for the lazy way out... I'll try to deal with it as best I can.

Regards acupuncture, I'm pretty much staying out of any disputes on that score after the Chronic fatigue syndrome fiasco. Is it just me or is the alternative health crowd and their opponents starting to get more aggressive and disputes more acrimonious? What a mess, makes me want to restrict myself to nuclear physics edits. If only I knew anything about it. WLU (talk) 20:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Quackery

An article that you have been involved in editing, Quackery, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Quackery. Thank you. —Whig (talk) 19:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

List of PS

Yes I was warned. So how do you deal with this. As you remember we had a discussion going on on the talk page about AK. How does this get posted against consensus. Anthon01 (talk) 13:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

What consensus and on which article? -- Fyslee / talk 15:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

On the List of Psuedoscience article we were discussing the "AK" edit. There was no agreement on the extra text. Now that extra text has been added. Anthon01 (talk) 15:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that it, an extremely well-sourced addition, was removed by editors who wished to protect AK and chiropractic from mention on the page. While the text there shouldn't get too long (the actual article is the place to do that), the sources that were added were necessary to justify inclusion on the list. A neutral description that didn't document it as being considered pseudoscientific would not meet inclusion criteria. The documentation requirement is now fulfilled. The latest addition you made is more appropriate for the article and adds nothing related to documenting why it is included on the page. In fact that quote, while accurate, really says nothing special, because it can be said about anything, including voodoo. It appears to be added to try to give AK more support than deserved by an appeal to popularity. It is used by exceptionally few other (than chiropractors) professionals, and some of them have been successfully prosecuted for the tragedies their patients have suffered because of using substandard medicine (AK). -- Fyslee / talk 15:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

But you side stepped my question about consensus? Anthon01 (talk) 15:32, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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Your e-mail

Your e-mail about a user supposedly violating his probation was not specific enough for me to take any action. If you feel action is necessary, please post to WP:ANI a brief and clear summary of the objectionable edits (with diffs), links to the rule or policy that you think they are in violation of, and the action that you think should be taken. Sandstein (talk) 09:50, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Blood Electrification

You said "IF blood electrification really worked it would have been patented and put in use a long time ago by the pharmaceutical industry, but since it doesn't, they can't." How is it patentable? Curious to know your thoughts. Anthon01 (talk) 18:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

How on earth did I miss this on my own talk page? Weird! The answer would probably be that the equipment would be professionally made and patented, its use would be licensed only to physicians and/or technicians, and the necessary procedures would become the subjects of seminars and congresses, all a very profitable venture for thousands of people and employing many more. Believe me, it wouldn't go unnoticed and whoever actually proved it worked would become very famous. No conspiracy theory would succeed for at least three reasons:

• 1. that's not how the medical system works in any way, shape, or form, since cures and discoveries are coveted and encouraged, regardless of their consequences for previous beliefs or procedures;
• 2. it would be impossible to keep secret;
• 3. medical personnel and their families get sick and would want to use it if it were truly a good thing.

-- Fyslee / talk 07:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:WINE newsletter

The Wine Project Newsletter! Issue VIII - December 22nd, 2007

Happy holidays!

I hope the holidays are fun and enjoyable. I would like to take this time to thank you for all the help you have given me over the time I have been here. I wish you and your a very happy & healthy holiday. 2008 is around the corner and my hopes is that it brings a great year of happiness to you. Happy, Healthy Holiday! Happy editing, I'm sure I see you around.. --CrohnieGal 17:32, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy Holidays to you and your family. Anthon01 (talk) 08:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much to all of you great people. Let's all have a very happy holiday season. Take care. -- Fyslee / talk 17:55, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

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