Misplaced Pages

Says who? Why don't you read both Movses Khorenatsi and Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) for a change, especially the latter, as the primary source, who makes clear that Utik, Artsakh were Albanian, and that even Syunik was independent of Armenia. --adil 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Karabakh was historically a Armenian region, Moses depends on his works some may be folk tale mixes etc, lots of things to point out on the verifiability of the content. Artaxiad 00:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Moses is still the "Father of Armenian history" as he is described, and his source is not the only one, look at any authoritative source, all of them will say the same. Karabakh is a historic region of Azerbaijan, and before that, of its predecessor state, Caucasian Albania. --adil 00:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

So? that does not change anything, and it is NOT a historic region of Azerbaijan keep trying, just because supposibly its predecessor state is Caucasian Albania does not change anything, it was Armenia's, as Eupator pointed out they never reached far west foolish of me into thinking that. Artaxiad 00:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

You make all those wild, off the mark claims with Eupator, but never present a single fact to prove your groundless claims. All sources show that Karabakh was a historic region of Azerbaijan and before that, of its predecessor state Caucasian Albania, and that the only time when Armenian might have had any control was under the ethnically Persian or Parthian -- in any case of Iranic origin -- Tigranes the Great. Before him Armenia was ruled by Persians, after him Armenia was ruled by Parthians and many others. So how does Karabakh become "historically Armenian"? --adil 00:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

So how does Karabakh become "historically Armenian"?. Probably because Armenians maintained broad forms of autonomy even under foreign rule.

lol

I'm sorry, but can you please point to me on a map where Azerbaijan was roughly located from the period of ∞ BC - 1918? (not the one below the river Araks, mind you)--MarshallBagramyan 00:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Karabakh is a wide region, which was popualted by Caucasian Albanians. This is true both for upper and lower Karabakh. Armenian presence in the lower part of Karabakh has been very minor, it was populated by Udis, and later by Turkic people. The capital of Albania Barda is also located there. So claims that Karabakh was historically an Armenian region is POV and contradicts known facts. It is better to not make any mention of historical claims in the intro. Grandmaster 10:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Right....:rolls eyes: --MarshallBagramyan 20:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster give me one good historian who actually says this, Karabakh was part of Armenia for hundreds of years its widely known Azerbaijan has nothing to do with it except for the fact the war that was started. Artaxiad 23:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I already explained Karabakh has a lot more to do with Albania than Armenia, the capital of Albania was located in Karabakh. No need to insert controversial claims into this article, considering that you failed to include them into NK article. Grandmaster 06:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

oh dear. All I wanted to do was make maps, you know. Make maps... --Golbez 08:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Karabakh has been part of Caucasian Albania

Some editors here now started to raise issues and claim that Karabakh could have been a "historic" Armenian region. I wonder how would that be possible when even the Father of Armenian history, a 5th century Movses Khorenatsi clearly showed (Book I, Ch. 4) borders of Caucasian Albania and Armenia? Not to mention native historian, Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Daxuranci), who did the same (see Book I, Ch 4; Book II, Ch 21), and it is clear how much of history of Caucasian Albania was interlinked with Karabakh (Utik + Artsakh). Here are two encylopedia's speaking, both extremely favorable to Armenians and Armenia, and in fact, in the case of the first, edited by an Armenian:

"In the first century A.D. the region now occupied by Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations developed in the third through fifth centuries, and Christianity began to spread. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.) Artsakh was part of the Albanian kindgdom in the ninth and tenth centuries. In the mid-11th century it was invaded by the Seljuk Turks…. In the 1230's, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh."

(Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd edition, 1973, "NKAO, Historial Survey")

" part of Caucasian Albania called Artsakh."

(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition. Copyright (c) 1993, Columbia University Press.)

The famous Russian historian of 19th century and beginning of 20th, V.L.Velichko, wrote: "Especially interesting is also the question of Caucasian Albania, or, in Armenian, Aghvank. This country, which incorporated contemporary Elizavetpol' Guberniia, as well as part of Tiflis and Daghestan, was populated by nations of non-Armenian ancestry.... Until the beginning of XIX century a separate Aghvan or Gandzasar Catolicosat existed, which competed with the Echmiadzin .... Currently, the Christians who were before of Aghvan Catholicosat, are considered Armenians, and after mixing with them , adopted their character." (p. 66). Velichko later continues: "An exception were the inhabitants of Karabakh (Albania or Aghvania), incorrectly (in relation to history) called Armenians, who professed the Armenian-Gregorian faith, but were descendants of Mountaneer and Turkic tribes, and who had gone through the process of Armenianization only three to four centuries earlier." (p.154)

V.L. Velichko, "Caucasus: Russian affairs and interethnic questions." St.Petersburg, 1904, pp. 66, 154. IN RUSSIAN: Vasilii L'vovich Velichko "Kavkaz. Russkoe delo i mezhduplemennie voprosi."

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).

Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia: A Legal Appraisal - Page 1, by Tim Potier - 2001 "Nagorno- Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania."

Even a very POV book by A. J. (Agop Jack) Hacikyan, Nourhan Ouzounian, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, writes: : "Vache was the prince of Artsakh and Utik and is often referred to as the "King of Albanians" by Armenian chroniclers." (p. 363) I think this is more than enough to prove that POV contentions of some editors are meritless. Karabakh, or rather, Artsakh (and Utik) were historic provinces of Caucasian Albania, whilst Karabakh (the name since 1230s) is a historic region of Azerbaijan. --adil 06:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

also, on the "Armenian" meliks and in general, about the "historic" Armenian "gavar" of Karabakh (Utik and Artsakh), you all seem to forget one of the most famous Armenian patriotic writers, a very nationalistic, pro-Armenian author, who relied only on Armenian chroniclers for his research, Raffi and his "Melikdoms of Khamsa" :

Меликства Хамсы — это пять небольших гаваров, которые, соседствуя друг с другом, образуют целую область, ныне называемую Карабах, а в нашей истории известную под именем Арцах, или Малый Сюник. В более отдаленные времена она являлась частью страны Агванк.

...

Эти края, которые, как я упомянул выше, когда-то являлись частью Агванского царства, впоследствии стали пристанищем армянских меликов.

...

II

1. Происхождение Мелик-Бегларянов, владетелей Голистана*.

Мелик-Бегларяны — коренные утийцы, из села Ниж. Какие обстоятельства принудили их оставить родину, перебраться в Карабах и поселиться в гаваре Гюлистан, — об этом история умалчивает. Известно только, что первый переселенец, которого тюрки называли «Кара-юзбаши» («Черный сотник»), а армяне — «Черный Абов», был человеком не простым:** на своей родине он имел состояние и правил народом.

...

3. Происхождение Хасан-Джалалянов, владетелей Хачена.

Из пяти господствовавших в Карабахе меликских домов лишь правители Хачена были местными жителями, а остальные, как мы видели и увидим далее, были переселенцами из других мест(4). Происхождение меликов Хачена следует считать очень древним, они потомки князей Хасан-Джалалянов. --adil 10:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

"Karabakh has been historically Armenian" POV

This quote has no reference and is an unsubstantiated POV, which lays at the source of the actual Karabakh conflict. As it's an unsubstantiated and POV quote, I will be making an edit to remove it. Atabek 17:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Historically means for a long time - pls. artaxiad provide your reference--Dacy69 21:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Historically does not mean long time it means past events, I still have yet to see references from you. Artaxiad 21:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

That's entertaining. Since you are inserting your claim, please bring your reference. Then we will talk.--Dacy69 22:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Than your not supposed to revert you simply add the fact tag. Artaxiad 00:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, the above references, including from Armenian sources, show clearly that there is no basis whatsoever for the POV claim of "historically Armenian region". --adil 03:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, Karabakh is not majority Armenian population -- even after ethnic cleansing, at least half of the IDPs from there, 300,000-400,000 people, live in Barda and other cities, towns and villages of Karabakh. Meanwhile its true that Armenian forces occupy most of Karabakh, and that should be reflected. --adil 03:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted to an early version since its better how it was until people started messing around with the article. Artaxiad 02:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it back since it's better when there is more sources, references and links from authoritative and academic sources. The article provides more valuable info to the reader this way, why did you remove GSE reference, etc? adil 03:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

What are these "citation needed" inserted for? There is a link to the NK article, which covers all those subjects -- why do you need to insert that, just for the sake of spoiling the article? adil 03:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Follow Misplaced Pages Guidelines and add them. Artaxiad 03:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Map2

We desperately need a map of the region, not just Upper Karabakh but the whole thing, so I can see just how much is controlled/occupied/owned by what side. --Golbez 21:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Armenia does not claim the whole Karabakh, so I removed a claim that the region is disputed between two countries. The region is very large and extends down to the junction of Kura and Araks rivers. Armenia claims NK and some adjacent highland territories of Azerbaijan. The map of Karabakh would indeed be very helpful. Grandmaster 04:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed the word Azerbaijani from the part where it says Karabakh is an Azerbaijani word. The source says that Karabakh has Turkish and Persian roots. VartanM 07:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, bag is a loan word from Persian in Azerbaijani language. That's how kara and bag became combined into one word. Grandmaster 07:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, word Karabakh in Azerbaijani means black garden, hence it's been agreed upon earlier that it's Azerbaijani term. Armenians designate the region with it's Caucasian Albanian name of Artsakh. Atabek 13:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, the reason I removed the "Azerbaijani word" was because the source says its Persian and Turkish. If you can provide a source that both words are Azerbaijani from an Azerbaijani dictionary it can stay. VartanM 20:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, both lowland and highland of Karabakh are officially parts of Azerbaijan. So no need for original research and/or generalizations. Yerevan is not a town in South Caucasus, it's a capital of Armenia. Thanks. Atabek 13:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

False comparison. A better comparison would be saying whether Stepanakert is a town in Azerbaijan or Nagorno-Karabakh. To me, it seems more neutral to state it's in the South Caucuses, since there's a legitimate dispute over ownership. ---- Golbez (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, Karabakh both highland and lowland are under Armenian control, there is no need to turn this into a political article. If I wanted to push POV, as you're accusing me of doing, I would write something about it being historic Armenian region and how great it is that Armenia liberated from Azerbaijan. But all I did was apply the most neutral term to a geographic article. -- VartanM (talk) 17:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Lowland Karabakh is not under the Armenian control, only a part of it (Agdam) is. The rest of the lowland Karabakh (Terter, Barda, Agdjabedi, etc) is under Azerbaijani control and has Azerbaijani population. So saying that the region is not part of Azerbaijan is wrong, and highland Karabakh is also internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. -- Grandmaster (talk) 18:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

So, whats the problem with Golbez's version? -- VartanM (talk) 18:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, Karabakh both lowland and highland is not only under control but under occupation of Armenian forces. That's what 4 UN Security Council resolutions say. It's officially part of Azerbaijan and was never recognized as part of any other state or independent by anyone. Hence, it's region in Azerbaijan. -- Atabek (talk) 20:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, what does that have to do with a geographic article? -- VartanM (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The thing is that Karabakh is a region in Azerbaijan, and most of it is not claimed by Armenia. NK is like 1/3 of the whole Karabakh or maybe even less than that. The highland part is also internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, so saying that the region is not in Azerbaijan is wrong and inaccurate. Grandmaster (talk) 06:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

No one's saying it's not in Azerbaijan. But it is disputed territory, and therefore it's better to state its broader, non-political location first, then explain the politics. --Golbez (talk) 06:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Only a small part of it is claimed by the neighboring state, so it is not disputed. Plus, that small part is also recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster (talk) 06:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter how it's recognized, the fact is that it is disputed. Mention the non-political context first, then mention the political, any time the political is in any legitimate doubt. --Golbez (talk) 11:52, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster its not only claimed but also liberated/occupied/controlled/taken over/ by NKR and has been self governed since 1991. But that has nothing to do with this article. Again this is a geographic location, not a political one. Please lets leave politics out, at least from this article. I don't know who wrote this article but I like the fact that the war is mentioned at the very end, and not at the beginning, like the rest of NK related articles. Although my first edit overlooked the fact that Azerbaijan was removed from the article, I find Golbez's version very neutral VartanM (talk) 06:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)