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Lachin is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian
Lachin is part of Nagorno-Karabakh neither de facto nor de jure, no more than Iraq is part of the United States. --Golbez12:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Map
Does anybody have any good and clear map for the Lachin town. I thought it would be good idea to have a map showing where Lachin is located at. ROOB32304:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Status of Lachin. de facto part of the NKR de jure part of Azerbaijan
I have had some concerns expressed over this] edit. Note that we have split the Nagorno-Karabakh article so when we talk about land that is de facto part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic we should include the NKR & Armenia's position at the negiotiations. This position has been that Azerbaijan can get back 5 out of the 7 former Rayons but Nagorno-Karabakh keeps the Lachin (Kashatagh) and the Kelbajar (Karvajar) rayons. Note also that the NKR includes census data from the Kashtagh province which includes the town of Lachin (Berdzor). Hence we need to express that Lachin is de facto part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 23:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Lachin is not even de facto part of the NKR, as they have not claimed it. At most, it is occupied territory, just like Iraq is of the United States, and no one has seriously said that Iraq is part of the United States. The negotiations may thus far require that NK/Armenia keep Lachin, but at present they have made no official claim or annexation of the land. The borders of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, as laid out by the breakaway government, specifically include only the 5 districts plus Shahumian. Lachin is considered by all parties to be presently part of Azerbaijan. That they want that status changed in the future does not change its present status. --Golbez (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to add the Armenian language name to the article, but I see that Golbez removed it back in February. What do Golbez and others think about this? And how did this anon "contribution" went unnoticed?VartanM (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome to fix the anon; I cannot be everywhere at every moment. As for the Armenian name, note that it basically said it was in the "rayon of Kashatagh", which is false. The name of the rayon is Lachin; if you want to say "also known by the local population as Kashatagh" that's fine, but the rayons are an official division of Azerbaijan that cannot be changed by another population. The city is a different matter; cities can and do easily be renamed. But the divisions of Azerbaijan are handled on the national level, and the land has not been annexed by Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh. If it was, you could say "in the NK division of Kashatagh" but that's not the case. The only second-level political entity that Lachin exists in is the (Armenian-occupied/controlled) Azeri rayon of Lachin. You can mention the local name for it if you like, but the primary political divisions of Azerbaijan are dictated by Baku and no one else.
Long story short - it would be odd to have an occupied/foreign controlled area change its designation in the national scheme of Azerbaijan, with Azerbaijan having no input whatsoever. Which is why I think we say on the Stepanakert that it is officially Khankendi in the Azeri subdivisions. It's not "the Azeri sahar of Stepanakert", that would again be false. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Have a look at the map at the official site of the Nagorno-Karabakh republic. I can't read Armenian but it is clear that they are not distinguishing (hence claiming) all the territory under their control as well as certain parts that are currently under control of Azerbaijan. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 23:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
That's a map showing the official Line of Control; note it includes far more than Lachin and Kalbajar. Perhaps this is how they would like the NKR to eventually be, but this is not how the NKR is now. The NKR has not officially claimed nor annexed land beyond its original districts that I know of; you'll need more than a map to source anything else. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
What does it matter if "NKR" includes Lachin in its borders or not? Such a state does not exist de-jure, has no recognition whatsoever, and you cannot find it on any world map. The only legal owner of the region is Azerbaijan, and we should use only the Azerbaijani divisions. Note that international community considers Lachin and other rayons controlled by separatists the occupied territories. Grandmaster (talk) 08:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Not helpful, GM. It's not like we haven't heard that argument over and over again, but I think the people actually in Lachin would disagree that they do not exist. Let's talk about the actual subject of discussion rather than falling back on your old tired routine? --Golbez (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The current Lachin is a town in Azerbaijan is unacceptable. We are not writing fantasypedia. I have nothing against addition of the information that its de-jure part of Azerbaijan, but it can not be in the lead as it is now. The lead should reflect current status of the town and not be misleading. VartanM (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
But... it is in Azerbaijan. It's in land occupied/controlled by Armenia/NKR, but it is claimed nor annexed by neither; it is part of Azerbaijan, universally acknowledged, just as Basra was always part of Iraq and Paris was part of France in the early 1940s. If you want it changed, you will have to show me a source specifically saying the political (not physical) ownership of Lachin has changed. Anything less is original research. --Golbez (talk) 22:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Golbez, de-jure non-existence does not mean that someone or something does not exist in real life, it means that he/it does not exist as a legal person/entity. And NKR does not exist in legal terms, it has no recognition, no membership in any organizations, and legitimacy of its government is rejected by the international community. I think it is a valid argument which we should bear in mind when discussing "NKR". Grandmaster (talk) 09:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Azerbaijani name goes first, as Azerbaijani is the official language in Azerbaijan and Lachin is part of it. That's the way it is done in any other articles about regions and towns. Grandmaster (talk) 06:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
It is Azerbaijani spelling of the region that matters. Since it is also a name of the region with Azerbaijani origin, not Armenian (like Berdzor), it matters even more. Lachin and Laçın are different and the latter should come first according to common sense. In the opposite Armenian spelling should not be there, since the Armenian side hardly ever uses this name to call/mean this region. --Aynabend (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm gonna have to agree with that; Lachin is not quite the same as Stepanakert, and it's not claimed or annexed by anyone but Azerbaijan so that name should go first. That there is a substantial Armenian population there is the reason why we then also include Armenian. --Golbez (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
