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Iran Start‑class Low‑importance

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Azerbaijan Unassessed

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Armenia Start‑class

Karabakh Khanate is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Sources

Where's your proof that the source is written by a Armenian. Except for there name, which means nothing. Artaxiad 02:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

for proof, either pick up a copy of EB or read the full article on the website, it is signed with Suny's name, and is well-known. --adil 03:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I restored some of info deleted by Piruz. The article is pretty much sourced, it is based on the chronicles of Bakikhanov, Mirza Jamal Javanshir and Mirza Adigezal bey, who provided very detailed account of the khanate's history. --Grandmaster 10:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I restored the category, it is justified as the khanate was ruled by ethnic Azerbaijani people. --Grandmaster 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC) Nowhere in the article is this suggested. Rather persian connection, like Erevan.Hetoum I 06:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

What is Persian there? The khanate was established by ethnic Azerbaijanis, same as Erivan khanate, where Armenians were a tiny minority. Stop removing categories without consensus. Grandmaster 10:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the khanate was established and ruled by Azerbaijani Turks along with Shirvan, Talysh, Quba, Ganja, Shaki, Nakhichevan khanates. Ehud 05:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

POV and tag

VartanM, you recent edit claiming there can be no Azerbaijani khanate if Azerbaijan did not exist in 19th century is the same as claiming that no Armenian history existed prior to the establishment of independent Armenia in 1918. On an unrelated note, the unreferenced tag on the top is baseless given several references listed at the bottom of the page. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 06:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The Azeri language template was removed simply because that language didn't existed when when this khanete ceased to exist. You are welcome to add the Persian version. The category is misleading and runs against the rules on misleading terms. Turkmens, Karazars and several other Turkic people were the ruling elites. I am removing it under the rule on misleading terms. And your comparison doesn't make the slightest sense. Armenia and Armenians have existed as terms at least since the fifth century BC and it was recognized as distinct identity. The comparison here is not Azerbaijani and Armenians, but Turkic and Armenians. If you want to start a category on Turkic Khanates do so, but Azerbaijani Khanate is clearly misleading. VartanM (talk) 19:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

KHanate origins

The reference to Bertsch says that Karabakh khanate was "Azeri" and expands on the title by saying "Azeri in the sense of Muslims who spoke a version of the Turkic language we call Azeri today". Another reference is added available from Svante Cornell's book. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, NK project tag is inappropriate completely both for this page and in general. First because NK is not recognized by anyone, second because even the map is not the territory of NKAO but inflated to include Shaumian district, and third because Karabakh khanate was Azerbaijani (Turkic/Muslim khanate). Thanks. Atabek (talk) 08:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Atabek don't remove project tags, thanks. And Svnate Cornell is not a reliable source. VartanM (talk) 08:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Khanate was not "Independent"

• As it has been discussed here,there is doubt in naming the Khanates as Independent. I have scanned a new document to show that the Javanshir clan was not independent and was considered to be a Beylerbeygi of Qajar government.The letter's date is 13 May 1811 ( Jumada al-awwal 1227 AH).
  

It is written in the page 2 , sentence 3 ,Mehdi gholi Javanshir is called as Beylerbeygi of the Karabakh vilayaat(province).--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Alborz, we are not discussing here the letters of Mehdi Gholi to Fathali Shah or Treaty of Ibrahim khan with Russian czar. Iran itself did not exist as cohesive entity from the time of fall of Safavids till the rise of Agha Mohammed Qajar, so that's the period when khanates became independent principalities. According to variety of references already provided to you, Karabakh khanate was independent of Persia as Karabakh khan did not obey even Qajars. How can Karabakh khanate be dependency of Persia, if Qajar was invading it with army? Atabek (talk) 12:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• An effective and powerful central government is not essential necessity for existence of a national identity. There are also other sources that say so. Anyway, in that chaotic period, the relation between Karim Khan and the Javanshirs was good. Panah Khan was a friend of Krim khan and helped him against Fath Ali khan of Urmiye.The title of " khan of Karabagh" was given from Karim Khan to Panah Khan (Two chronicles on the history of Karabagh:Mirza Jamal Javanshr's Tarikh-e Qarabaq and Mirza Adigozal Beg's Qarabag-Nameh/introduction and annotated by George A.Bournoutian.ISBN:1-56859-179-9. Page 180). Indeed he(Panah Khan)was a quest in Shiraz when he passed away , his body was sent to Aghdam with great honor.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 15:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not as knowledgeable as Dr. Alborz on this troubled era, but thankfully Alborz is knowledgeable, and has just put a primary source. Also there are google books. We should definitely put the images in the main entry and I just did. Those are important primary sources. Most of these Khanates were under the orbit of Iran and not Russia. There are Europeans maps from the era we should find and look at. I don't have the maps now, but if I recall, during this period, in the european maps, they are considered to be part of Persia, even if there was semi control on some Khanates. For example Khorasan Khans came into conflict with Qajar central rulers, but still were considered part of Iran. Even lets take two more familiar and more extreme cases. Say the brief period of Pishevari, where Azerbaijan was not under central control, it was still widely recognized as part of Iran. I think recognition is important in this sense. For example Karabagh now is not under Azerbaijani repbulic central government, but on the maps it is part of the republic of Azerbaijan and world wide recognized as so. So I think maps from European countries can help with this regard. Can someone translate also where Bakikhanov calls it an independent state? Just direct words Please. Note we can mention what a primary source says but its interpretation must be done through scholars according to Misplaced Pages. ُSo Golestan Aram, as well as the two chronicles of Qarabagh and even the letter Alborz just brought are great sources, but the interpretation must be done through historians. I have added two sources. . I will quote the exact words. Portier: "Panah Ali-Khan founded the Karabakh Khanate in the mid 18th century. To defend it, in the 1750s, he build Panakhabad fortress (subsequently renamed Shusha, after a nearby village) which became the capital of the Khanate. It was not until 1805 that the Russian empire gained control over the Karabakh Khanate, from Persian", Croissant: "Russian annexed the Nagorno-Karabakh region from Iran in 1805 as a result of the first Russo-Iranian war". If these Khanates were 100% independent, there would not be a need for these scholars to mention annexation from Iran. The Qajar system was not really centralized in some of its era and it is called Khan-Khani in Persian (I assume Azeri too) (Perhaps feudal kingdoms is a close concept). --alidoostzadeh (talk) 16:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Richard Tapper has a good deal to say on the issue: I added some sources. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 19:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Two facts worth mentioning is that Panah Khan submitted to Karim Khan Zand and Ebrahim Khalil Khan submitted to Fath' Ali Khan Qajar. Ebrahim Khalil Khan's daughter was even married to Fath' Ali Khan Qajar. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 19:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Ali doostzadeh, if I remember correctly, earlier at Talk:Safavid dynasty you insisted that Richard Tapper is not an acceptable historical reference, since he was an anthropologist :). But anyways, I am glad you're interested in this topic and use Tapper, as I think his historical research is valuable. I added two references to Karabakh being independent khanate. But all of these discussions and references are essentially needless, because there is a simple fact of Treaty of Kurekchay from 1805, you maybe even able to find a scanned copy of it from the archives of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia by searching in Google, and if Karabakh khan was not independent of Qajar Persia, he would not be signing a treaty with Russian czar or vice versa. Atabek (talk) 11:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Atabek, please stay on the topic. Note I do not bring up the fact that you didn't know Nasimi wrote in Persian (even after Encyclopedia of Islam was brought, you somehow contested it). After you contested it, then I brought actual Persian poems from Nasimi, from books published in the republic of Azerbaijan. My contention with that part of Tapper on Safavids remains. Unlike what I did in Nasimi, in the end, we did not find any primary evidence directly from Ismail himself about "I am the Shah of Azerbaijan" (that is from a historical Safavid source) and the Shahsevan did not exist then. So somehow, until I see a primary source with this regard, I will contest it (although in Misplaced Pages Tapper is more than a perfect/neutral source and probably better than Leila Alieva source and also Iranian/Armenian sources). I was interested somehow in a primary source with this matter. So those issues are bygones and this is the new year. But anyhow this is Misplaced Pages, so if Tapper mentioned it, then he is more of expert on the issue than me. And his expertise is much more than the two new sources you brought on this issue. But shahsevan did exist during the time of Qajar, unlike the time of Ismail at 1501. Also as you notice, the citation of Tapper about this issue (the Khanates) is much more extensive than a footnote from one book you brought and just a sentence from another book.

Note the fact that Panah Khan submitted to the Zand Ruler, and Ebrahim Khalil Khan submitted to the Qajar king, and was appointed governor, makes a big difference. One can not claim independence from 1746-1822! when the rulers submit to the King. For example, in Afghanistan, various warlord factions signed treaties with different countries. But they did not claim independence from Afghanistan. The Kurdish entity in northern Iraq is signing oil/trade contracts with foreign governments without the approval of the central government of Baghdad. But one has to agree, Kurdistan of Iraq is part of Baghdad. Thus I have seen words like "Iranian/Persian control","nominal control", "semi-autonomous" and etc with regrds to some of these Khanates. That is why primary sources can only be considered through the eye of scholars in Misplaced Pages. The interpretations might totally differ. Also note what I just said about recognition. I also brought other sources that Russian gained control. Anyhow the sources I have brought are more relevant to the topic at hand. They are books rather than articles. Alborz also brought a primary source. I would appreciate a more detailed citation from your new sources, since the authors you mentioned are editors and not the authors of the particular articles. For example, it would be good to mention the actual authors, the name of the article and then mention the editors, the name of the book which the article is in and etc. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 11:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Ali doostzadeh, interesting comment on Nasimi. If I recall that one correctly, you were insisting that Nasimi's poetry in Persian is as important as the Turkish one - until Britannica reference :). Anyways, you cannot contest a source, be it Richard Tapper or Leila Alieva, a Berkeley scholar at a time, unless you provide qualification above those to judge on a particular subject. Pending those qualifications, all we can do is present any and all references, just as it was done in Safavid dynasty article, and let the reader judge, which ones are more relevant. I believe Misplaced Pages is 💕, and hence reader should be given opportunity to access all available sources, not just those that Ali Doostzadeh or Atabek decide as more relevant. And I added the quote from Gary Bertsch book about independent khanate as well, that's the other reference. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 13:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No you are recalling wrong.. . Sorry for the poor Azeri, all I can say to your claim is: "Sharab-i yeni Bayram Mesihilar Mahv Olsun". (joke). I never claimed Persian or Turkish of Nasimi was more important. Anyhow, have a good new year, and I guess this is after all Misplaced Pages. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 13:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest the introduction should just have that it was Khanate and be minimal. There could be some disagreements about the sources, and then the reader can judge. Many sources have semi-autonomous, and etc which contradict the word independent. So we can not give prominence to one view over another. Note Swiechowski, a well known scholar, mentions that vast tracts of Iranian territory including Karabagh khanate was seceded to Russia. The introduction contradicts itself in many aspects, including Swietchowski who says that in 1805 Russians became overlords, so independence could not have been up to 1822, if the Russians controlled it in 1805. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 12:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Your suggestion is not acceptable. Because even though the Khanate was part of Gulistan treaty, it was nevertheless controlled by Russia in 1805 and there was even the Treaty of Kurekchay signed directly and formally between Karabakh khan and Russian Tsar. And there are references showing the khanate was Azeri and it was independent. And I brought two references for you on independence, not just the one where Leila Alieva is only a co-author. And would you please, explain how references you brought are more relevant? Ibrahim Khalil khan withstood the Qajar siege of Shusha for weeks, and fled second Qajar invasion, and the fact that next Qajar king was appointing him as governor, when Ibrahim khan was already a ruling independent khan of Karabakh fighting the preceding Qajar king, is really a nice joke :). I am sure even Armenian sources would argue in such case that Karabakh khanate was de-facto independent and de-jure part of Persia :) Thanks. Atabek (talk) 13:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Well ultimately we are going to have quote all the sources. The references I brought were more relevant, because they were full books on the issue, and the title of books show their relevance. For example take a look. An article on a book on "Refugees" is not as relevant to the topic as Tappers extensive overview. Just check the extensiveness. Neither is unfortunately a footnote in an article. Just a mere footnote! And we can perhaps compare and contrast their academic backgrounds (Professors vs just a Dr or Postdoc). But here is another source. "By a verbal truce Ebrahim acknowledged Qajar supremacy and was permitted to continue his tenure as khan of Qarabagh", "Ebrahim, in order to maintain peaceful relations with Tehran and retain his position as the khan of Qarabagh, gave his daughter Agha Begom, known as Agha-baji, as one of the wives of the new shah ", . Also found three references in google books which use "semi-independence", which I will add later. One reference also mentions "Iranian" administered So while Ibrahim Khan did not acknowledge Aqa Muhammad Khan, he did acknowledge Fath' Ali Shah Qajar. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 13:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If we agree that the Russians took over in 1805, then 1822 should be removed from intro. Also given that a variety of sources state that Ibrahim Khalil Khan (accepted Qajar lordship(Tapper, Iranica) in 1795, then there is a period of 10 years 1795-1805 that the Khanates can not be independent That is before it was lost to Russians, the Khan of Karabagh considered himself as part of Persian lordship. So eventually, after Nadir Shah, they are part of Iran just based on these two sources. Also assuming based on the sources that Panah Khan submitted to Karim Khan Zand (died in 1779), then he and his son had accepted the Zandi lordship from 1762 to 1779. As per the Armenian/Azeri angles, I am sure both of them would like to say they were never part of Iranian empire (USSR histography at work), but anyhow, will let the sources speak for themselves. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 13:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Ali doostzadeh, every single sentence in the introduction to this article is sourced. So I don't see a reason why you're suggesting to remove something in favor of another source, are you more qualified than those sources? If Iranica source (note the title for neutrality purposes, although I don't mind using it) claims that Ibrahim khan "submitted" to Qajar lordship, go ahead and add it in the body where you added Tapper reference. But again the fact is that Russians did carry out negotiations with Karabakh khan directly and many in his family received Russian aristocratic titles, while Karabakh khan also did fight with Qajar king. This is regardless of Agha-begom or Agha-baji, or other wives of Qajar shah. And Ali, how is this edit of yours at all relevant to the subject "became Fath' Ali Shah's twelfth wife; highly respected at the court, for some reason remained a virgin". Thanks for the humor though :) Atabek (talk) 13:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Also note one of the sources you mentioned:"Shusha became the capital of an independent Azeri Khanate in 1752". It does not say 1752-1822. It does not give a duration. The most we can ascertain from this that it was independent in 1752. Okay, maybe I can agree with that. Tapper and Iranica state that from 1795-1805, Ebrahim Khan submitted to the Qajar king. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 13:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The other source (Vayrynen and Alieva), "subsequently became an independent Khanate in 1747-1822". This source could have received it wrong information from Misplaced Pages or some other source of wrong information. How could they be independent up to 1822 when the Russian Empire gained control in 1805? This is a major mistake I believe. Also nothing against Leila Alieva personally (note I was the person that created this article ), but her academic credentials (lack of Ph.D.) makes her a weak source.

. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 13:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

So I hope these concerns are addressed. Thanks.

--alidoostzadeh (talk) 13:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The 2000 source may have received wrong information from Misplaced Pages?? Did Wiki even exist in 2000? The khanate, that is Javanshir family lordship over Karabakh, was dissolved in 1822. The khanate carried out foreign policy independent of Persia prior to 1805, hence by the realities of those times it was independent. Also Leyla Alieva is a PhD - and . And I believe the fact that you created Igrar Aliev article is absolutely irrelevant in this context. Atabek (talk) 13:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

So the first source does not given a duration. Just 1752. This should be corrected or moved to another section. As per Leyla Alieva, the wrong information came from somewhere (I mentioned Misplaced Pages as a possibility but I mean a general internet website). I still do not see a very high credential or the minimum assistant Professorship. Also the wording contradicts Swietchowski and tons of other sources. If the Russian annexed Karabakh in 1813 or 1805, then that is that. There could be no independence in 1813-1822 (this is the main point), something which your second source claims. Even if the Javanshir family was there, that is not the main point. The main point is that then there is no independent Khanate up to 1822, since after the Gulistan treaty, the area was effectively part of Russia. So this is a contradiction and the source is wrong. The source says: "subsequently became an independent Khanate in 1747-1822". But as we saw, (forget about the Persia part), this is totally untrue about the Russian part. You should clarify how up to 1822 could the Karabagh Khanate be independent from Russia when all the sources claim it part of Russia, at least from 1805 and definitely by the time of the Gulistan treaty. Note Iranica for example: "On 2 June 1806 the Russians, instigated by Ebra@h^m's grandson and fearful of their own vulnerability, attacked the camp and killed Ebra@h^m, one of his wives, a daughter, and his youngest son (Atkin, 1979, pp. 79-98). The Persian army withdrew, and Qara@ba@g@ remained in Russian hands. To attract the much-needed support from the local Muslims, General Gudovich, the new commander of the Caucasus, appointed Mahd^qol^ Khan, the remaining son of Ebra@h^m, as khan of Qara@ba@g@. Mahd^qol^ served the Russians until 1822; then, fearing Russia's wrath for the overtures he had made to the Persian government, he fled to Persia. Russia then incorporated the khanate into her empire. In 1836 Mahd^qol^ returned to Qara@ba@g@ to claim his family property and lived the rest of his life as a Russian pensioner (Atkin, 1979, pp. 99-100)." and of course Swietchowski, and many other boks that mention the Gulistan treaty. So this source is wrong. Swietchowski: ""The brief and successful Russian campaign of 1812 was concluded with the Treaty of Gulistan, which was signed on October 12 of the following year. The treaty provided for the incorporation into the Russian Empire of vast tracts of Iranian territory, including Daghestan, Georgia with the Sheragel province, Imeretia, Guria, Mingrelia, and Abkhazia, as well as the khanates of Karabagh, Ganja, Sheki, Shirvan, Derbent, Kuba, Baku, and Talysh"""

The Khanate was dissolved in 1822, fine, but it was not independent at least from 1805 (since Russian control), something your source claims. I will wait for clarification and hopefully this point is addressed. But if it is one against 10 sources that say Karabagh Khanate was incorporated into the Russian empire since 1805, then that source is wrong and should be removed. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 14:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Note you say in the above: "Because even though the Khanate was part of Gulistan treaty, it was nevertheless controlled by Russia in 1805 and there was even the Treaty of Kurekchay signed directly and formally between Karabakh khan and Russian Tsar. ". So it does not seem possible that there was independence after the Russian annexation. The source is wrong. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 14:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course, Karabakh khanate was not independent from 1805 till 1822, since it was subdued to Russian Empire. What's important though that it was independent before that as Karabakh khans did not yield to Qajar shahs, fought them, and even withstood the siege of their armies. Also prior to Agha Mahammad Qajar (who "set out to reunify Persia" as Qajar article says) and after the fall of Safavids, there was practically no unified state entity so that Karabakh would be dependent on it anyway. So 1822 is only the date when Khanate ceased to exist. In any case, again, I don't think you have an authority or qualifications to dispute a book reference from various scholars and judge who is more relevant. And I don't think your discussion of the level of scholarship at which Dr. Leila Alieva, PhD is going to yield any fruit. As I said, all references must be incorporated and reader, just like you do, judges what's more relevant. Atabek (talk) 14:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Salam. Okay the above is admitting that the reference is wrong, at least not from 1805-1822 there was no independent Khanate. But I think we need to provide as I said the authors name in the book the editors name. I would appreciate that we do this, since then we are giving the readers accurate information. Usually the editors of the books and title of the books are cited after the author and the article are cited. I am not sure if the current wikipedia template allows that and it might be easier just to put it in manually. As per Karabagh dependence or independence or semi-independence, I think we are going in circles and I have given my arguments based on Swietchowski, Tapper and Iranica, European Maps of the time, submission of Panah Khan to Zand and Ibrahim Khan to Fath' Ali Shah and etc.. So I'll try to fit that in the intro or the body of the text of somewhere. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 18:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• Start-Class Iran articles
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