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Revision as of 23:12, 2 January 2008

Re: Evidence presented by The Fat Man Who Never Came Back

I move to dismiss. This is not an evidence to the case. This is an eulogy. I am yet to see a so good a man not to do something not very good. Anyway, what we need is evidence how good was SandGeorgia with respect to Zeraeph. Also I find it disturbing that SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs) did not find time to even briefly comment on their position/involvement. (reasons explained by SG) `'Míkka>t 02:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Mikka. One of the causes of this situation has been the attitude that one user can do no wrong, and the other no right. What we need now are diffs showing the interaction, and also some quiet consideration about how and whether Zeraeph can continue to edit in peace. SlimVirgin 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

With respect, this is rationalisation on a grand scale. There are multiple diffs in multiple rooms. Ceoil (talk) 03:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

There are, yes. But they need to be on the evidence page too. :-) SlimVirgin 03:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

As an outside observer, I see plenty of evidence on the main request page. It just all needs to be moved over to the Evidence page. Cla68 (talk) 03:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Evidence that will be of most use to the Arbitrators is evidence showing the interactions between SandyGeorgia and Zeraeph, or interactions between each of them and other editors in discussions related to this dispute. Praise of SandyGeorgia's actions in unrelated matters, while nice, is not really relevant here. Thatcher 03:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I find it disturbing that a unblocking admin in a harrasment case would say "What we need now are diffs". Ceoil (talk) 03:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"one user can do no wrong, and the other no right" Huh? Ceoil (talk) 03:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure the lot of you will manage to compose a denunciation--complete with diffs--to complement and balance out my "eulogy." I'll be anxious to read it. In any case, the reasoning for composing my evidence was thus: I have observed that the "finding of facts" in these ArbCom cases make reference to they way the case participants have behaved in the past--whether they have engaged in a certain type of behavior even before the events in question. If my evidence helps lend credence to the notion that Sandy has a strong history of helping--not harassing or bullying--problematic editors, then I believe ArbCom will see this as very relevant.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"Well, I'm sure the lot of you". You the lot of who? Us? Who are we, or us? Editors? "compose a denunciation--complete with diffs" You don't compose harassment, you point it out with actual diffs, and ask the community for help. I stopped reading after that. Ceoil (talk) 03:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"these ArbCom cases"...substance? Ceoil (talk) 03:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Ceoil, you're misunderstanding me; I wasn't addressing you at all (though I did place my comments at the bottom of the section, below yours)--I was responding to those who felt my praise of Sandy Georgia was irrelevant to the case and (somewhat facetiously) encouraging them to add diff-heavy evidence of their own that shows what a mean ogre/bully SG is. I guess that's a side of her I have yet to see.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

FM, sorry about this. That comment wasn't visible on my screen -- all I saw was the sig next to the header, which is what I was removing. Must have been some kind of edit conflict. SlimVirgin 04:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

FM, I also apologise. There are so many attacking from so many fronts, I'm on the defensive. Ceoil (talk) 04:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No worries, and while we're all apologizing, I am sorry for implying that some of you are out to demonize SandyGeorgia. I'll strike my sarcastic comments. I don't, for the record, believe SandyGeorgia "can do no wrong," and I find that characterization unfair. I do, however, want the community to be aware that thee deeds of which Zaraeph are accusing her are absolutely inconsistent with the qualities I've observed during every casual and close interaction with her. I would hope my evidence would, to a modest degree, speak to a possible finding of fact that SandyGeorgia's has a strong reputation and has interacted with even disruptive editors in a consistently positive, courteous and helpful manner. It does seem appropriate to contrast this perception (which, I know is shared by many other editors) with the sorts of complaints that are being leveled against her in this case. I know several of you disagree, but editors' past history--especially the recent past--can be significant when weighing possible solutions. --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 04:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Well put fat man, but we are now in the realm where "the causes of this situation has been one user can do no wrong, and the other no right". And then diffs are demanded, again. The first contradicts the second. Scary or what. Ceoil (talk) 04:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fat man, I, personally, have no interest in "denouncing" anybody here, I just want a solution, so that we can both edit comfortably and productively in future. I do not see any way that can be achieved without challenging the ongoing denigration and misrepresentation of myself, that probably should not be happening at all.

I remember the situation with ATC, and even commented on it in support of SandyGeorgia's interest and suggestions . However, we all react to different people in very different ways, and ATC and I are vastly different people. For instance ATC seems very young, unfortunately I am not. To use your own words ATC ignored comments and warnings from well-meaning users, didn't use edit summaries, uploaded copyrighted material and was generally such a nuisance that she was eventually and repeatedly blocked, after which time she employed abusive sockpuppets to continue making poor quality edits.. I have never done any of those things, and never would, I do not think it is a fair comparison at all. ATC, seems to welcome direction from SandyGeorgia , in matters upon which I do not need or require direction, I have already said that I feel SandyGeorgia has a driving need to control that focuses on me, and that makes a considerable contribution to the problems between us. Totally different people, and totally different interpersonal dynamics, one works, one does not, seems like normal life to me, and absolutely irrelevant to this arbitration, unless I so far forget myself as to try and resolve this issue by trying to present SandyGeorgia as bad and wrong in every way, which she certainly is not.

Just one last point, I am not comfortable with such statements as "who suspected ATC may suffer from some of the neurological ailments described in the articles she chose to edit" and "difficult editors--particularly those with neurological/psychological conditions" especially in an environment where I am condemned for impugning another editors mental health simply for asking if they are unwell , either it is acceptable for us all to diagnose each other, or it is not. --Zeraeph (talk) 06:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Diagnose you? I was under the impression that you self-identified (onwiki) as suffering from sort of condition. My point was simply that SG has demonstrated a strong sympathy for editors with autism and Asperger's--if that has not been your experience, then I'm sure you'll produce diffs to the contrary. And yes, I would have to be extraordinarily stupid not to realize that you and ATC are different people, in terms of maturity and editorial objectives. I'm not a party to whatever sort of unpleasantness ensued between you and SG, nor do I wsh to be; I will, however, reiterate that any editor's past behavior and tendencies are germane when asking ArbCom to determine whether that user should be sanctioned/limited/cautioned/exonerated etc. If an editor has truly been as terrible to you as you perceive, is her terrorizing you a unique case or part of a pattern? These are the sort of questions that I believe arbitrators will ask. If my evidence does not help answer these questions, so be it.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 09:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fat man, I "self-identify" as having Asperger Syndrome, not "suffering from" "neurological ailments" and/or "neurological/psychological conditions", and it wasn't me being diagnosed there, it was ATC. Whatever "strong sympathy" SandyGeorgia may feel for editors with Autism and Aspergers, I do not know, but I can honestly say that I have never personally seen her demonstrate any. However, she does not have to, she only need treat others (including me) as she expects to be treated herself. --Zeraeph (talk) 10:14, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• "also some quiet consideration about how and whether Zeraeph can continue to edit in peace." Slim, in what capacity are you acting here? you do not seem to be impartial in my reading of this page. I would like to hear clearly from you if you are participating here as Zeraeph's advocate or as an impartial admin who got caught up in this situation, as you have stated in your evidence. given your statements on this page I have real concerns about the fairness of this process. Also, I need to add that I do not see that Zaraeph has peacefully edited here. In her time on Misplaced Pages she has been at the center of one conflict after another. Surely not every interaction that ended badly is the fault of the other party? Jeffpw (talk) 23:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Off-wiki attacks

Misplaced Pages:Attack sites has been rejected by the community. Zeraeph's posts on Misplaced Pages Review are considered evidence. If we are not allowed to link to them, these posts should be copied over verbatim to a sub-page of this case, and verified for accuracy. —Viriditas | Talk 12:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct that BADSITES was rejected by the community. You are allowed to link to the alleged off-wiki attacks in circumstances such as this. Cla68 (talk) 12:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The links were added by another editor during the initial request and removed by an administrator. I notice that that they have not been added back in as diffs in the relevant section on the evidence page. I predict that if I add them back in they will be removed again. Therefore, I propose that a new sub-page be created for the purpose of adding the text itself. —Viriditas | Talk 13:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It would probably be best to note that the thread exists but email the link to the Arbitration committee. I don't personally have a problem with the link as evidence, however others might and it would be best to avoid creating an unnecessary sideshow. Thatcher 14:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I feel that using the links as evidence in an arb case is okay. A sideshow should definitely be avoided. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Rlevse, with the clarification that any editor who persists in removing any links legitimately added as evidence in an arbitration case is the one causing the "sideshow", and is guilty of disruption. Mike R (talk) 20:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I would request that links not be added in evidence, but that the material be forwarded to the ArbCom. I've been told that the thread includes attacks on me (though I've not read it myself), and speculation about SandyGeorgia's mental health which, if posted here, will be cached by Google. SlimVirgin 20:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Links not posted leave people like me who, it is said have been attacked on those sites by the person in question, further in the dark. I have no idea what or where these sites are. This lack of openness here further perpetuates the feeling of "in group" and "out group" so strong on Misplaced Pages and increases the "paranoia" of those of us permanently "out group" people who are either ignored or ridiculed by most Admin. Mattisse 21:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly not "in group", if that's what this insinuates. It happens that the website in question has a pretty good search function. And in general, Wayback Machine links would be far more reliable (where they can be found). Durova 22:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Mattisse, I will email you a link. Thatcher 21:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Thatcher. As a non-arbitrator who really cares, I have not been successful in running a search to locate it, so I appreciate any solid information (rather than vague or distorted descriptions) about what is happening here. Mattisse 22:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher's solution is sensible. A basic description on-wiki should be enough for any non-arbitrator who really cares to see the original to run a search and locate it. Since other websites may alter material, such links are not necessarily reliable as evidence. Durova 20:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Viriditas, who was it that removed the links? Perhaps that admin isn't aware that BADSITES was rejected as a policy and just needs to be informed. Cla68 (talk) 21:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

—Viriditas | Talk 22:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll leave a note on Crum375's talk page. I'm sure he just wasn't aware that his action was unnecessary. Cla68 (talk) 23:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that there is a guideline Misplaced Pages:Linking to external harassment. `'Míkka>t 21:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Linking to off-site evidence for an arbcom case isn't against any policy. Cla68 (talk) 23:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Zeraeph, please e-mail it to the ArbCom, in case no one else has, but it's best not to post it onwiki. SlimVirgin 22:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

How would I do that? --Zeraeph (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Send it to arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org — Rlevse • Talk • 22:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Deleting for now...do you mean to mail them the link that I posted here? Sorry, I am a bit slow tonight. --Zeraeph (talk) 22:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)t slow tonight.