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Revision as of 15:44, 5 July 2005

Anti-Polonism

This article is an admitted neologism, as well as an apparent attempt to incorporate Nazi attrocities against Poles, the Prussian (later, German), Austro-Hungarian and Russian (later, Soviet) occupation of Poland, ethnocentric denigration of Poles, and perhaps a few other gripes, together into a single article. What's here can mostly be incorporated into Polish September Campaign, Holocaust, History of Poland, and Ethnic slurs. Even after the cleanup by Jayjg, it remains absurdly POV. The rest of it needs to go, as it's little more than uncited WP:NOR and a magnet for POV-pushers. Tomer July 4, 2005 21:50 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Anglophobia, Anti-Arabism, Anti-Semitist, Anti-French sentiment in the United States etc., could be also incorporated into Holocaust, History of XXX, and Ethnic slurs, etc.--Witkacy 4 July 2005 21:53 (UTC)
• Keep or Rename. The factual information in the article is sourced (see references, external links - how can you call 12 written and 8 online references NOR??), so the phenomenon exists and is of encyclopedic value. True, the title is a neologism, but it was not invented on Wiki - while it is rarely used (517 hits on Google), half of them (first page) are non-Wiki. Name change might be useful, but as you can see on Talk:Anti-Polonism, the name change was often discussed, but no consensus was reached. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 4 July 2005 22:00 (UTC)
  • Regarding the references, it appears many of them are not about the concept as described in the article, but rather are historical works describing various events which this article is classifying as "anti-Polonism". That's quite another thing; on Misplaced Pages it's called original research. Jayjg 4 July 2005 22:24 (UTC)
    • Some, perhaps. All, surely not. Although if you can prove that none of those do indeed refer to what is defined as Anti-Polonism in the article, I will change my vote to delete. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 4 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)
• Rename. I see no good reason to have a rarely used neologism as the title of this article. In Talk:Anti-Polonism various other naming possibilities were discussed. What would be wrong with a more intelligible title like Prejudice against Poles or something to that effect? I personally do not like the term Anti-Polonism, since in Poland it has often been pushed by at least some right wing Polish nationalists, for their own reasons too complex to discuss here (in a nutshell, to set up an equivalency with the phenomenon of Antisemitism). Balcer 4 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
  • So we should also rename Anti-Americanism, Anti-Arabism, Anti-Catholicism, Anti-Semitism, Anti-French, Anti-German etc, articles.--Witkacy 4 July 2005 22:18 (UTC)
  • Anti-Polonism is an obvious neologism; even the article itself admits it. I don't think you can make the same claim for the other examples you have given. Anti-Semitism gets millions of Google hits, anti-Americanism hundreds of thousands, anti-Catholicism tens of thousands, even anti-Arabism gets over three thousands hits. As for anti-French and anti-German, they're not neologisms at all, but descriptors. Jayjg 4 July 2005 22:24 (UTC)
    • Its used in English history books---Witkacy 4 July 2005 22:33 (UTC)
    • And where should we draw the line in Google test? 100 hits? 500 hits? 1000 hits? 3000? 100,000? I am not a great fan of Anti-Polonism, but as Witkacy points out, it 'fits the series'. As for the title being neologism, I agree it is true, but that is no reason to delete it, as 1) it is used in at least few hundred non-Wiki sites, 2) would encourage the deletion of most articles in the Category:Neologisms. Anyway, this discussion is already moving towards Misplaced Pages:Requested moves, I think. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 4 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)
      • Tomers "problem" was not with the name, but with the article at all.--Witkacy 4 July 2005 22:46 (UTC)
      • No no no. Category:Neologisms doesn't consist of neologisms made up within WP, it lists a number of popular words of contemporary origin (e.g. weblog). There is no clear line to draw with a Google test, since it's just a very rough guideline. But when there's orders of magnitude in between, the result is fairly clear... --Moritz 4 July 2005 22:57 (UTC)
• Keep Space Cadet 4 July 2005 22:34 (UTC)
• Keep V1 4 July 2005 22:40 (UTC)
• Rename per Balcer, who makes a good point about the use of the term by some right-wing groups, and refactor so it does not put Nazi genocide together with "Polish jokes"--Pharos 4 July 2005 22:47 (UTC)
  • So i guess Lukas, Richard C is a Polish nationalist, since he use this term in his books... :)--Witkacy 4 July 2005 22:54 (UTC)
  • And the Canadian Foundation of Polish-Jewish Heritage a right-wing organisation  :)--Witkacy 4 July 2005 22:59 (UTC)
  • ...and the Center for Dialogue and Prayer in Auschwitz etc....--Witkacy 4 July 2005 23:02 (UTC)
    • It doesn't work that way. Even if you can find non-right-wing sources that use the term, it might still be associated with the right-wing. (I have no idea whether it is, in this case.) Furthermore, such associations change over time, it might be a perfectly neutral word one year only to become very partisan the next. --Moritz 4 July 2005 23:04 (UTC)
    • I never implied that the term anti-polonism was only used by right-wing nationalists. Nevertheless, in Poland some right-wing nationalists (and sometimes antisemites) do use it frequently in their writings. To pick a random example, see this link.
    • And Anti-Semitism is used by Jewish right-wing nationalists, and? And the term Nazi is used by German Neo-Nazis, and? BTW the term anti-polonism is used by (among others) the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Poland - Nobody cares about Anti-Arabism, Anti-Americanism or Anti-Slavism articles etc - is this voting the next demonstration of Anti-Polish sentiment amongst Wiki-Users? ... :)--Witkacy 4 July 2005 23:34 (UTC)
• Keep: I can see where Tomer is coming from, and I'm tempted to vote delete if it solved anything. But chances are, the issue would just pop up again until people stop being emotional about it. Renaming still might be a good idea. --Moritz 4 July 2005 23:04 (UTC)
• Merge per Tomer. Firstly, the word is a neologism. Secondly, most of the examples given in the article are wars! Rightly or wrongly, that is not the normal definition of "anti-whatever" prejudice. As an American, I would never suggest that the War of 1812 or World War I were examples of "anti-American" prejudice, even though both wars featured opponents who intended to kill Americans. That's just not how you normally define it. This article would have a much stronger case IMO if it concentrated on prejudice against Polish emigrants who travelled elsewhere. But it doesn't seem to have that, dealing almost entirely with wartime attacks against Poland. The Nazi activities of course went well beyond the normal boundaries of warfare, and so I do suggest merging them for that reason. Dcarrano July 5, 2005 00:09 (UTC)

I wouldn’t call the wars anti-American prejudice either, since they were wars, not planned extermination of people (civil men, women and children) of particular ethnic groups. The Nazi kind of occupation was not normal (as you noticed) nor it was similar to the same in other countries. Also, it’s not about the Nazis only. The article refers mostly to war times, because there were mostly wars in Poland. Still, there is a difference between occupation and persecution, though both may happen simultaneously. If you can develop the issue of prejudice against Polish emigrants, please, do. --SylwiaS 5 July 2005 01:24 (UTC)

• Keep Small number of google hits doesn’t indicate that the problem does not exist only that few people are interested in it or notice it at all. I wouldn’t worry about the right-wing usages of the word. We should not reject a word only because a right-wing party chose to use it. I’ve just read some old talks and I think it’s high time to focus on the article’s body, which definitely needs extension, instead of it’s title. --SylwiaS 5 July 2005 00:18 (UTC)
• Keep Misplaced Pages is already a treasure-trove of not-widely-used phrases, and it is not paper. --Jpbrenna 5 July 2005 01:39 (UTC)
• Keep, and rename to avoid neologism. HollyAm 5 July 2005 01:42 (UTC)
• Keep. It's similar to Anti-Americanism, Anti-Arabism etc. --Akumiszcza 5 July 2005 04:45 (UTC)
• Keep. BTW, I wonder if Anti-Semitism or Anglophobia are also listed for deletion so frequently... Halibutt July 5, 2005 05:41 (UTC)
• Keep and Rename to something that's not a neologism. I would propose Anti-Polish, which would be in line with Anti-German etc. Karol July 5, 2005 06:35 (UTC)
• Keep. Misplaced Pages is not a paper --Azalero 5 July 2005 07:39 (UTC)
• Keep or rename Radomil talk 5 July 2005 08:55 (UTC)
• Keep or Rename. --wojsyl (talk) 5 July 2005 08:57 (UTC)
• Rename and/or Redirect as per Tomer. IZAK 5 July 2005 09:00 (UTC)
• Keep. It may be neologogism (in English) but it does try to describe phenomenon which I fuond many times in the web, usenet and whenever: absurd conclusion, that if I am Pole, than I surely am... (insert some accusation here). Szopen
• Comment: The implicit assumption shown by many that putting this up for VfD and showing anything but a total devotion to a Keep vote is itself an example of so-called "Anti-Polonism" is, frankly, extremely offensive. --Moritz 5 July 2005 13:01 (UTC)
• Keep. There are many mentions of "pl:antypolonizm" in newspapers, there are even books. The reason for little usage of this word in English is that only few of them are translated and antipolonism itself is not widely discussed in media: but Misplaced Pages already contains articles about more exotic words and subjects and nobody complains. A.J. 5 July 2005 13:31 (UTC)
• Rename — Historically Poland was in the same boat as Belgium — being caught in the middle between more powerful nations. So this was as much to do with the strategic situation as anything having to do with some type of prejudice. — RJH 5 July 2005 15:24 (UTC)
• Keep and Expand. Anti-Polish policies (Russification/Germanisation) of the Imperial Russia and Germany before 1918, as well as anti-Catholic/anti-Polish sentiments in the United States in XX century should be added. Negative stereotyping in portraying Polish characters in the movies and TV in the US after 1945 is another area for article's expansion. --Ttyre 5 July 2005 15:44 (UTC)