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Andranikpasha

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Andranikpasha warned to avoid future violations of revert parole. White Cat is admonished for stirring the pot and trying to cause more flame-warring. Moreschi 14:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

"a radical turkish site on Armenian "allegations" is not acceptible. see the admin comments." That is in violation of the revert parole. Also the edit summary is inadequate as the removed site is a US Department of Defense funded non-profit organization. -- Cat 15:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

At first, I reverted once after the revert parole. And what's more important, Cat, a supporter of sites like "tallarmeniantale", is adding another redical site on Armenian genocide denial marked by admin Picaroon as "...atmg.org is definitely not a reliable source. It is unsuitable for verification purposes, and should not be readded." Other users also opposed but anyways Cat is continuing to readd the Turkish site on Armenian "terrorism" and "allegation" (of Armenian Genocide) etc. I was placed under revert parole after Cat sent suggestions to admin Moreschi ("User:Andranikpasha, a user you had once banned indef is causing problems at List of attacks by the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia. I thought you'd want to look at the Arbitration enforcement page."), while we have a conflict with Moreschi on Moreschi's possible pro-Turkism. Will User:Cat also be placed under revert parole?? Andranikpasha (talk) 15:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a clear violation of parole by Andranikpasha, his previous rv on the same article was on December 28: , and then he made another rv on December 31: Grandmaster (talk) 16:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Really? I was placed under parole on December 29! Andranikpasha (talk) 16:14, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Andranikpasha was your revert strictly to bait me into reverting again so that you can complain and get me placed under a revert parole? -- Cat 16:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

White Cat has a history of trying to add entirely inappropriate sources to that ASALA page. Nobody has edited it since December 30, so his latest complaint seems like stirring. He seems to have a bee in his bonnet about the Armenians so I'd favour a restriction on his editing on this topic area. --Folantin (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

But that's not all. Andranikpasha rvd Shusha pogrom (1920) on 31 December 2007 (removed the tags and the figure of 500 dead with the reference to de Waal from the intro, restoring his preferred version of intro under the false pretext of adding the source to the text) , and then reverted the article again on 3 January: . So this is 2 rvs in less than 1 week, i.e. a clear violation of the parole. If you check the history of the article, you'll see that Andranikpasha was removing the reference to de Waal and the tags from the intro since 7 December. Grandmaster (talk) 16:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Please stop, Grandmaster! Look again I didnt delete the source by modern journalist de Waal but moved his number of 500 (see the talk, you never discussed!!) and even added some more text by the same author and other authors. At least read the edit summary: "expanded, journalist de Waal added"! Is it a revert?? About after-Dec. 7 edits: I asked you many times to start discussions for Shusha pogrom at talk but you never did, just reverting. Seems to be a simple pogrom denial! Andranikpasha (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You restored your version of the intro and deleted de Waal and his figures from the intro, together with the tags, it is a repetition of your previous rvs on this article. You persistently removed that figure from the intro for the reasons unknown to me. Same with the tags, you removed them many times without any consensus on talk. Clear violation of rv parole. Grandmaster (talk) 16:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again: this intro is not only "mine": I discussed it many times at the talk, you never answered. And both "commonly disputted" tag deletion and de Waal moving were happened first time (and after I explained it at talk), what a repetition? I wrote about the intro at the talk, pls read it at first to not ask why?

And who's edit's are more dubious at Shusha pogrom (1920)? at first Grandmaster said:"This article needs to be nominated for deletion for obvious POV issues and lack of any reliable sources" (Aug 31, 2007), then "The battle was initiated by the Armenian side. As result of the battle, the attacking Armenian side lost and the Armenian part of the city was destroyed in the counterattack of the Azerbaijani army.", now he's using a source which he call's reliable and this source says "terrible pogroms" took place in Shusha (just with a lesser number of those Armenians who was killed): sorry, this is an encyclopedia, not a good place for the propagand of denial... Andranikpasha (talk) 16:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Andranikpasha's not getting blocked today, you can't apply revert parole retrospectively. Moreschi 17:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Cat seems to continue to wikistalking me. he added the same problem also to ANI . The text contains even some false info included that I was placed under revert parole by... Thatcher. I prefer to have an admin comment on Cat's behaviour and suggested revert parole for him. Andranikpasha (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

In case of Shusha pogrom (1920) the parole does not apply retrospectively. Andranikpasha was placed on parole on 29 December, and after that he reverted the article twice, i.e. on 31 December: , and on 3 January: . Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in my opinion it is a clear violation of his parole. Grandmaster (talk) 18:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, considering the link to cu that you posted at WP:ANI: , we know that Andranikpasha was permanently banned in Russian wikipedia for edit warring, POV editing and sockpuppetry, see this cu at Russian wiki: , and his involvement in mass user page vandalism in English and other wikis, as well as in commons, source, meta and other projects, will there be any further actions based on the findings by cu? Grandmaster (talk) 18:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, here you are correct. I've warned Andranikpasha to avoid future violations of his parole, which will be rewarded with blocks. Here I think we AGF and say like as not he simply forgot. Moreschi 14:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, pls read more carefully before to answer! About so called "revert" (do you mean the undiscussed one by Parishan?) I answered earlier! And pls differ "cu" from the "requests for cu". As well as we need to differ "Shusha pogrom" from "Battle in Shusha", and "Armenian allegations and terrorism" from "Armenian genocide". WP:SOAP. Thats all! Andranikpasha (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

This is issue is being properly handled over at ANI. . VartanM (talk) 06:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see it being handled there. It is about a different issue. I think the history of disruptive activity of Andranikpasha across various Wikimedia projects, including vandalism in English wiki, should be reviewed by the admins. Grandmaster (talk) 07:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop to harrase me, Grandmaster! Andranikpasha never vandalised Misplaced Pages, do not represent possible wishes (I dont want to describe them) as a reality! Andranikpasha (talk) 12:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Accusing another member of vandalism goes strongly against WP:AGF, and the WP:NPA. I hope neutral admins review that. VartanM (talk) 08:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope so too, especially contributions of this IP range: According to cu on meta, "there is a strong technical correlation between the Andranikpasha ID on many wikis and 217.118.95.* (or 217.118.95.0/24)". Talk page of this IP is quite interesting too: I think the admins need to investigate this issue thoroughly. Grandmaster (talk) 14:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, do you think the "Strong technical correlation between the Andranikpasha ID on many wikis and 217.118.95.* (or 217.118.95.0/24)" means "history of disruptive activity of Andranikpasha across various Wikimedia projects, including vandalism in English wiki"? One more pseudo-propagand and falsification of the text? Andranikpasha (talk) 14:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you check contributions of that IP range before saying that. Grandmaster (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Where's the logics, sorry? You said its me, and now you suggest me to check what that IP done! Thanks no need! Im not a checkuser (the checkuser didnt made any decision yet!), nor have a time for this IP. I just prefer a little more civility by you while calling my activities a "vandalism"! Andranikpasha (talk) 14:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry I missed this thread before it closed, (I would have welcomed a nudge to come participate) but I and other CUs have been investigating this for some time. Let me reiterate, there is a strong technical correlation between Andranikpasha and the IP range 217.118.95.* (or 217.118.95.0/24) on this wiki and on many many (I ran checks on a LOT of wikis as part of this investigation using my shiny new Steward buttons) other wikis. On many other wikis the sole contributions made by users and IPs in this range (that is, by this user, see "strong technical correlation") are to attack other users (a persistent pattern is after an admin takes action on one wiki regarding this user, this user attacks or vandalises that admin's pages on many other wikis) or to disruptively interfere in the smooth functioning of the wiki. While en:wp does not and should not take what other wikis decide to do as the sole guide to what to do, it would not be prudent to completely disregard this user's history and behaviour patterns elsewhere. I would suggest the reason this user has been relatively well behaved here is because this user is being closely watched. Several other wikis have banned this user, or blocked the IP range. My conclusion is that this user is a persistent and disruptive vandal and trouble maker and I recommend at the very least that a very close watch be kept in accordance with the parole. Myself I would have just blocked the user completely here and been done with it. I welcome any questions or concerns. ++Lar: t/c 15:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute! What means strong technical correlation? Is it proved we're factual one person (included the IP ranges)? And according to what a person can be banned in a Wiki if there's a "strong technical correlation" between him and other (mind, already blocked and paroled) users in other language (I found out only Russian and French) Wiki's. Sorry, looks like a stalinist principle! Be sure the users who made this retrospective "case" and wrote you to participate here are already watching me well:) Andranikpasha (talk) 16:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Originally Andranikpasha was banned in English wiki as well, but admins here took a more liberal approach than their colleagues in other wikis and replaced the ban with a revert parole. That most probably is the reason why Andranikpasha behaved more adequately here, but once his parole was removed because of a technical issue, he instantly resumed edit warring across multiple articles, for which he was placed on parole again. I think the admins should take into consideration the entire history of the activity of Andranikpasha in wikimedia projects when making a decision on this user. Grandmaster (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, though current behaviour is given priority. Now, this discussion really can close. Moreschi 18:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That was me, but I unblocked while adding an established editor as mentor (VartanM, which in hindsight was probably a mistake — for appearences if for no other reason), and with the pledge that the restrictions will remain in effect. Somehow, these restrictions were lifted by Ryan Postlethwaite due to technical(?) reasons, and yet, he failed to inform me of that... El_C 18:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Moreschi: not yet. Andranikpasha: Checkuser can never prove or disprove anything. What it provides is a way to estimate probabilities. "Strong technical correlation" means that I find it highly likely that you and the IP range's edits on many wikis are one and the same, and higly improbable that you are different. I'm a strong believer in giving people a second chance, if they come clean. You can pussyfoot around if you want, but you'll get farther with a lot of people if you are more straightforward. I'll ask you here what I asked on my talk: Do you admit that you are the same user as the IP range, and as the other users named, across the many wikis that the case names off? Do you admit that you have in the past been disruptive, and have vandalised pages of admins at many wikis in retaliation for something they did to address your disruptiveness at one wiki? Let's for the sake of argument say I am only referring to things that I believe you did more than 3 months ago. Your honest answer to that question will in part determine what I do next. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

El C, do you have a diff for the pledge that Andranikpasha would stay on restrictions?

Here is the set of events that resulted in the restrictions being lift:

• As a result of VartanM being put on parole at 16:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC), and clarification being sought, Kirill clarified the remedy here at 05:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC), after which VartanM struck himself and Ryan removed him
• Soon after Andranikpasha, Baku87 and E104421 were also removed based on the same lack of incivility.
• A week later Aynabend was also removed.

John Vandenberg (talk) 19:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Why would I need a diff for paraphrasing myself? But sure, easy enough: El_C 23:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The point is, given Kirills clarification to the case, Andranikpasha should not have been under a supervised editing restriction. Regardless of a prior agreement before unblocking with another admin (even though I originally placed him under supervision), this doesn't give anyone the right to overule what the committee has decided. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, that was a condition of him being unblocked, so making the unblocking admin (yours truly) privy to this, was prudent. El_C 23:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I should have contacted you, but given I didn't know that this was a condition, and given that he would still have been under my supervision order I don't really think it's fair to suggest that I was really out of order. When I removed his name, I did so because I made the orginal decision and realised it was wrong. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If Andranikpasha was indeed banned from other language Wiki’s, he was then punished for what he did. According to which policies is it acceptable to watch over his other contributions in other Wikis to punish him here?

If indeed using evidences from other Wikipedi’s are valid, then in this case there are evidences of members canvassing to have Andranikpasha banned from English Misplaced Pages. Grandmaster's first post on meta was on 09:16, 21 December 2007 , only few hours after Jayvdb made his checkuser request on Andranikpasha . With his limited knowledge of Russian, (he doesn’t even claims to know it in his userpage), Jayvdb managed to make such a history of Andranikpasha's contribution on Russian Misplaced Pages. It would have taken some basic mastering of the Russian language to know according to the contributions and have verification on that Ashot account. We know very well that on English Misplaced Pages Andranikpasha was first banned because of Grandmaster's attempt to have him banned; we also know that Grandmaster who masters Russian is also a regular contributor on Russian Misplaced Pages. I don’t think there is any coincidence or it is too much far fetched to say that Jayvdb proxies for Grandmaster by posting those evidences gathered by Grandmaster to request a checkuser. What use these really have if not to bring it over to English Misplaced Pages to further discredit Andranikpasha?

Jayvdb has a long history of coming to Grandmaster’s defense in an interval of few minutes, like here where he voted 14 minutes after Grandmaster supporting his position and even claiming fringe opinion about a subject he didn’t seem to know anything about. Here we can check the history of Shushi Pogrom and see Jayvdb's persistent one sided interventions. Or Paytakaran where he introduced Grandmaster change by merging both versions etc. Apparently he now wants to become a clerk, I believe he should be restricted to enforce any policies concerning this case as a party to this case.

Those harassments have to suffice, Grandmaster was able to have Andranikpasha restricted, more than this would obviously be a bad faithed attempt to have him silenced. It is nothing more than a double standard, WhiteCat's actions on Commons are claimed to be irrelevant here, so lets be consistent and judge Andranikpasha according to his contributions here. Administrators canvassing and talking behind our backs has TO STOP!!! VartanM (talk) 20:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You forgot to mention one minor detail, Vartan. We are talking about Andranikpasha's contributions to English wikipedia in the first place. That IP range was engaged in repeated user page vandalism here, in the English wikipedia, which seems to be a continuation of Andranikpasha's conflicts with admins at other wikis. His disruptive activity across the multitude of other wikimedia projects is just a useful background to demonstrate the editing pattern of this user, which is the same everywhere. I don't think this thread should be diverted towards discussion of other editors and admins, the point here is that CU supports that Andranikpasha was engaged in disruptive activity on many wikis, English one included. He is not an innocent victim of the conspiracy of certain users and admins. In that case the conspiracy must exist in every project he was banned from. We need to wait for Andranikpasha's response to the questions asked to him. Hopefully it will clarify certain matters. Grandmaster (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

So you don't deny that Jayvdb proxied the evidence for you. How old is that IP vandalism, and do you have direct evidence connecting it to Andranikpasha. VartanM (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, even this IP range stopped his activities at English Wiki much before I opened my account (Andranikpasha). And in the list at MetaCU we can find only one user who was banned (that is Russian one). And even without this all you wrote never justifies the sad reality VartanM marked! Andranikpasha (talk) 21:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I've asked you a direct question and I'd appreciate a direct answer. If you choose not to answer I will take it as tacit agreement that you and the IP users are one and the same. ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you show me the policy under which this investigation is being conducted. And can you tell me what does a six month old IP vandalism has to do with Andranikpasha's current status here at en.wiki. This whole thing looks like a witch-hunt to me. VartanM (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, Grandmasters involvement in this is totally irrelevant, but in the interest of clearing the air I will answer this as I can provide a more detailed history. He did initially email me with the Russian CU page and explained that the "Hayk" user page had been vandalised on RU and EN by the IP range 217.118.95.* around the same timeframe, and asked whether I would look into this. Due to the attacks here, I accepted on the condition that he AGF until the results were final, and warned him that it would probably take a long time because the attacks were a long time ago. (As far as I know Grandmaster has done that, otherwise he would have received a short block in the same way I blocked Fedayee!) Beyond that initial involvement, Grandmaster has had nothing further to do with this, and was not involved in collating the evidence presented in the meta CU page.

I am a bit miffed that you think I am incapable of collating this evidence myself. While I am the master of only one language, I am intelligent enough to be able to grok most languages with varying degrees of effort. You will find a long list of interwiki links on User:Jayvdb and s:User:Jayvdb; most have a few contribs, and I also administrate the Multilingual Wikisource. Languages are not my strength, which is why I dont advertise my language skills with userboxes, but they are a hobby that I enjoy. As an example, it required a few hours to figure out enough Hungarian in order to source this, even though the article on the Hungarian subdomain didnt have any sources at that time, and still does not. Throughout the evidence on m:Requests for CheckUser information#Andranikpasha you will see it is based primarily on interwiki links showing a pattern of the same IPs and usernames editing the same articles on different sub-domains. Ironically, often those interwiki links were put there by the anons/users under inspection in the meta CU request. Lar and other English admins can confirm that I was seeking uninvolved parties who could help to translate some Armenian, French & Russian information; Grandmaster did not provide any assistance and I did not ask for it. Also, some of the evidence is deleted content on the English Wikisource, which Grandmaster does not have access to - I found it by following those anons/users across all the projects and sub-domains.

Like lar, I am willing to let bygones be bygones because I have seen good contributions by Andranikpasha, but only if Andranikpasha responds to the direct question posed by lar in an open and honest manner. John Vandenberg (talk) 16:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You’ll have to excuse my skepticism, so Grandmaster's registration soon after you requested the CU was a coincidence? And how have you insinuated that I meant you were unintelligent to make the link yourself? What I said was that it would have to take some level of Russian language mastering to be able to go and find Andranikpasha on Russian Misplaced Pages. And it is hard to confirm what you report, contrary it is the opposite. The attacks here, as you say, do not match with your affirmation. Andranikpasha was banned on English Misplaced Pages, but not a single userpage got vandalized. This should have to be enough to settle the issue, he was then unbanned and there were no attacks afterwards. So the evidence you provided does not fit in the context you are presenting it.

Furthermore, some interesting observations from those IP addresses, is that those are not vandalism , the IP address has reverted what was obviously inaccurate information which Lucrèce was POV pushing. Lucrèce was banned from French Misplaced Pages. What was removed by the IP, was also removed by other users. Neither this removal on Dutch Misplaced Pages, was a vandalism, here on English Misplaced Pages the usage of such terms as statment is not only discouraged but it there is a consensus not use them at all. On Armenian Misplaced Pages he created the page, nothing more.

Checking those IP’s and reading those contributions, there is no doubt, that most of the contributions in those other language Misplaced Pages's were average for a newbie.

As for the banning from Russian Misplaced Pages, and? Atabek was found having used socks and edit warring here. Anything in that collection which could be of any value would be the vandalism of a members talkpage. Did those continue? Did he vandalized any pages here?

This borders harassment, and I discourage Andranikpasha to answer anything at all. User:Hetoum I was harassed by Grandmaster over and over again for the mistakes he made during his first days of contributions (which was also vandalizing user pages), the way Grandmaster gathered administrators and made things blow over proportions, bringing it back every chance he got discouraged Hetoum to continue contributing here all together.

And your involvement here, right now could be interpreted as acting as a cosponser of this harassment. For exemple check your involvement in Shusha pogrom (1920) article, where Andranikpasha was most active, systematically taking Grandmasters side and even making fun of Andranikpashas mastering of Russian. You are flaming it, your actions brought nothing positive. For months Andranikpasha has been OK and that's all that matters. Lar's question is a double edged sword. If Andranikpasha say yes, it will be used against him, saying he’s an admitted sockpuppeteer and vandalazier, if he answers no, it will be used to say that he denied something which was obvious. VartanM (talk) 23:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not my intent that the question be used as a double edged sword. We have had vandals reform before and go on to be admins, no less. I think you should assume a bit more good faith, the persecution complex thing doesn't go over well with some, including me. ++Lar: t/c 23:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I know that it's not your intent and I am assuming good faith with you. But it’s the fourth time Grandmaster attempted such an indirect gathering of evidence to have his foes banned because of content dispute. Call this persecution complex, I’ve seen what he did to Hetoum, seen his attempt to have Meowy banned and more. I am simply putting an end to all of this. As I told you before, if you want your personal questions answered, you can email him. If Andranikpasha starts doing what is reported on meta, then perhaps you could bring it back. I hope this settles it. VartanM (talk) 05:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

A question to the admins. Is it OK that VartanM continues making assumptions of bad faith and baseless accusations of other users? Some claimed here that WP:AGF is not an official policy, is it really so? Yes, User:Hetoum I vandalized my user page 18 times, inserting obscene images and messages, and yes, I brought that to the attention of the admins. How come that it was me who harassed Hetoum and not the other way around? And yes, I presented that info to the arbcom, since it was dealing with the disruptive editing on Armenia – Azerbaijan and Hetoum was also involved in a lot of disruption. What does it have to do with this thread? I think wikilawyering by VartanM has to stop, this thread has no relation to him and Andranikpasha should come out and answer the questions that admins posed to him. Andranikpasha has a history of disruption across various wikimedia projects, and why should everyone pretend that it never happened? In English Misplaced Pages Andranikpasha was placed on parole twice, so it does not look like there has been a total reformation. I proposed to the arbcom to change the reporting rules on WP:AE to prevent the reports turning into endless and pointless discussions, I hope it will be taken into consideration. Grandmaster (talk) 06:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:AGF This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary As you can see I presented evidence to what I claimed. VartanM (talk) 07:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, you know Vartan isn’t referring to Hetoum’s vandalism, but you bringing it up over a year later, again and again harassing Hetoum, wikistalking him when he already paid for what he did and how he behaved. I agree with Vartan that under the circumstances, Antranikpasha should not answer those questions. Any administrators who would again tell me to assume good faith, would do better reading these evidences on Grandmaster’s abusive reporting, stalking and following of members. So Lar, the persecution complex may not work for you, but under the circumstances it is understandable. - Fedayee (talk) 08:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Fedayee, VartanM accused me of harassing Hetoum, who vandalized my user page many times. Yes, I did present the info about this vandalism to the arbcom, as such info is required for the arbitrators to evaluate the overall history of this user's contributions. All the info that I presented was factually accurate and not disputed by anyone, so I don't see how this is a harassment and why VartanM keeps making baseless accusations, irrelevant to the topic of this discussion. So far he presented no evidence of me harassing anyone, but keeps claiming that he does not need to AGF with regard to me. Grandmaster (talk) 09:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, I prefer if you assume a little more good faith. Had the so much dubious incident-pushing to the article on Armenain Jews a purpose to be deleted by someone from Armenian side (it can be me) for another "evidence" of "sourced"-info deletion. And for a result its you who are continuning editwarrings started by Parishan and deleting the whole sourced (this time detailed and sourced by many reliable sources on Antisemitism in Azerbaijan - see for example FSUMonitor site) chapter. Count how many times you putted my name here and how many times I putted yours(just once or maybe never?)! Should you put your name here now with a text like "Another deletion of a whole sourced chapter by Grandmaster" if you were in my place?? Andranikpasha (talk) 19:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, I reverted myself and instead I'm going to ask third party editors to take a look at that article and the section of Antisemitism, created by Andranikpasha. It is bigger than any other section in the article, and while all human rights reports agree that antisemitism has never been a real problem in Azerbaijan, Andranikpasha tries to present isolated incidents as a general trend. I don't mind covering this issue in that article, but I believe it should be done in an objective manner. Now you can create a separate report on that, if you wish, but let’s not distract from the topic of this particular thread. Grandmaster (talk) 20:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

A self-revert after my protest is not justified. You're not the only editor of that article and before controdictional actions you should discuss them and have a consensus with all the active users. Its not acceptible to do what you like without asking if other active authors are agree... Yes, before collecting "evidences" a little more tolerancy is needed. Anyways, an independent review will be good... if you think so. Andranikpasha (talk) 20:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I just saw this: I do think that those sections on Antisemitism in both articles are blown out of proportion, but you just did the same thing you were accusing others of doing. I hope you do the same as I did and wait for independent review after that. Grandmaster (talk) 20:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Surely we need common standards. EhudLesar was the first who added an incident from the paper to Armenian article, and also Parishan and you were the first who deleted the section from the Azerbaijani one. Im sure if no any hopes for additional "evidence" and a little more tolerancy such an editions will not take place. Andranikpasha (talk) 20:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, I was not involved in the prior ban of Andranikpasha in any way; I didnt know of it until it was done. The vandalism here that I refer to here on enwiki is (Ashot). If you could translate those, there may be clues that help us with this inquiry.

Grandmaster's action on meta is definitely not a coincidence. I notified Grandmaster that the meta CU was underway once I had compiled enough evidence for me to feel comfortable that it warranted further inspection. Why are you surprised that I should notify Grandmaster, and he would register on meta as a result? Why is it of any consequence that Grandmaster found the Russian Andranikpasha user page instead of me finding it on on the first page of results for a simple search of Andranikpasha site:wikipedia.org. The crux of this investigation is that we have a very strong correlation between the Russian Andranikpasha, the IP range, and the English Andranikpasha, and the IP range has been attacking French admin Sand as recently as November 24, 2007. "DOWN WITH ADMIN SAND!" Note the French contributions by this IP range revolve around asserting that the name "Shushi" should be used . This correlates closely with Andranikpasha's attempt to use Shushi as opposed to the name Shusha on the English article for the exact same topic Shusha pogrom (1920). I rejected this much like the French did in a similar NPOV discussion that determined that the Azeri "Şuşa" was preferrable.(fr:Wikipédia:Liste des articles non neutres/Massacres de Shushi) The diff you provide above shows my frustration with Andranikpasha's insistence that his approach at transliteration was correct, despite nobody else agreeing with him then or since. To construe this to mean that I was siding with Grandmaster is both misrepresenting what happened, and part of a disturbing pattern of Armenians calling for my head on a platter any time that I make a decision that they are not happy with. I renamed the article, after being involved in discussing the matter for an inordinate amount of time, with nobody agreeing with Andranikpasha that the prior name was correct.

These attacks are a serious matter, crossing many sub-domains, and my meta CU request was raised to shed light on the ongoing pattern so that admins on all wikis can put a stop to it continuing. VartanM, if the attacks that are raised in this CU are by the same Andranikpasha, his improved behaviour here on enWP can be attributed to your mentoring; please dont spoil that by shooting the messenger instead of heeding the message. Urge Andranikpasha to answer honestly and be part of the solution whichever way he responds. If he acknowledges that he was involved in these attacks, I would welcome you resuming your mentorship of the user, perhaps with another uninvolved admin keeping an eye on things. John Vandenberg (talk) 07:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Above you claim such a contact which you deny here during the Christmas period. It is also very difficult to assume good faith, when you don’t say the truth on what went on in the French Misplaced Pages. The French did nothing of the such, no user of good standing who is neutral would call it Şuşa for an event which happened before the invention of that alphabet (that wording in French Misplaced Pages is obviously wrong). Andranikpasha was actually true and anyone on French Misplaced Pages who would push the term Shusha for that period would be POV pushing and if that person doesn’t know anything and does it regardless without requiring sources like Sand did, then that person didn't have editorial judgement. In French works, the term Chouchi (the “Frenchisized” word and for the period) was generally the most used term for the place for the period. See these , , , , , , , , , , , , .

These are only a few of the results, which includes encyclopaedias. Here you can have the rest from Google books . Chouchi is by far the term mostly used in French for the period. The word with the i in the ending is actually the original name, as Panahs Shoushi was named after the nearby village, that name was existing at least since the 11th century , centuries before the town was build near and almost touching the village of that name.

Andranik’s approach on French Misplaced Pages WAS correct, as even in modern times French literature uses the term with the i ending. The historic documents and publications support Andranikpasha, and under the circumstance that he was right, his frustration could be understandable.

Your renaming of the article was one sided, much like your intrusions about a subject which you perhaps know nothing about yet you take a position because you do not assume your target could be right. And this :’’ and part of a disturbing pattern of Armenians calling for my head on a platter any time that I make a decision that they are not happy with.’’ is not assuming good faith, weren’t you the one who tried to do that with Andranikpasha? Besides, this isn’t about us being not happy with you but your intrusion and taking the side of Grandmaster systematically and things which you know nothing about.

Grandmaster requested mediation on Paytakaran then the mediator started making propositions, which did not satisfy him, then shortly he is away, Grandmaster starts edit warring, he is reverted, you come and intervene by merging with the original version… Grandmaster’s inaccurate version. Since then you have been acting like a partner to him, voting like the example above minutes interval with him, running his investigations, coming and participating and the witch hunting on the Shushi pogrom article, which was at first the reason why Grandmaster wanted Andranikpasha’s head, much like Grandmaster tried having Meowy’s head because of his involvement on Kish article.

Golbez, who was pushed away, was doing a pretty good job. Had he been acting on the Armenian side the way you have systematically acted on Grandmaster’s behalf, I would have not given much of his future here. - Fedayee (talk) 00:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Macedonia edit wars

Can somebody please have a good look at Ireland101 (talk · contribs) and Tsourkpk (talk · contribs) and apply Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Discretionary sanctions as seen fit? These guys have been fighting a bit too much for my taste recently. I'd do something myself, but I'm probably a bit too non-uninvolved by the Arbcom's current standards. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

A little more to go on? Which article(s) should we look at? Thatcher 14:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Basically every article Ireland101 has been editing lately has been in an edit-warring situation with either Tsourkpk, Megistias (talk · contribs), Kékrōps (talk · contribs) or other Greek users. See Vergina Sun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Bryges (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Rosetta Stone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Macedonian dynasty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Macedonians (ethnic group) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Hellenization (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and so on. It's all over the place. Difficult to say who's picking these fights, whether it's Ireland editing tendentiously everywhere, or the others stalking him (as he evidently feels), or both. Also see the current complaint thread at WP:ANI#Ireland101 and Tsourkpk. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out Future Perfect. In almost all of those situation those editors/meat puppets were reverting my edits with no explanation.Ireland101 (talk) 17:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

What would you think about a 1 revert per week per page limit for Ireland101 and Tsourkpk? Thatcher 15:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I've put Ireland101 on revert parole and logged it, holding off for now on other actions (which I believe are needed). Kékrōps (talk · contribs) is also coming up reverting in quite a few of those page histories listed above. Thoughts? Moreschi 17:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why I was put on revert parole considering that I always include edit summaries and have no history of edit warring. I have only reverted vandalism and thought that was the purpose of the Counter-Vandalism Unit. Ireland101 (talk) 17:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not what the CVU is for. Evidently your definition of vandalism is a little off. Moreschi 17:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• In response to Moreshi's request for "thoughts", reverting is not an endorsed editing method anyway, so 1RR is probably the least restrictive sanction we can think of, certainly less so than page or topic bans, and I would think it could be liberally applied, although with either an expiration date or a promise to review (after 3-6 months perhaps). Thatcher 17:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I think I'd agree with revert restrictions here. I'd like to see them applied on both sides though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni33

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

not a debate page, both warned

Giovanni33 was placed on revert parole (once per week, per article) here for a year, as was I. On the Jung Chang article he reverted 08:33, 31 December 2007 after a break of 1 week and 10 minutes (the previous revert was made 08:23, 24 December 2007. Such a tiny time difference indicates he is gaming the system. Furthermore I think reverting during the holiday season on Christmas and New Year's Eve is an example of him trying to get a revert advantage by hoping a user such as myself would be too busy to notice what he was doing. If he was acting in good-faith I believe he would have waited until after New Year's and made sure everyone was around - he didn't even leave a message on the talk page asking if people were there or not.

As can be seen on the talk page Giovanni33 frequently reverts, does the minimum to ensure he doesn't get banned by leaving a comment "explaining" his revert and then disappears for a week before he starts this again - his lack of discussion of the matters prior to reversion can be seen by his recent edit history.

He is disrupting the article by refusing to co-operate with other users. He continues to push his POV, despite the urges of myself and User:Fullstop for him to self-revert and gain consensus for his desired changes first. I gave him more than 24 hours to at least respond to our comments before reporting him here, but he has made no response. John Smith's (talk) 14:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

JohnSmiths makes several false claims here. First, though, if I am guilty of gaming the system by reverting shortly after a week, then so is JohnSmiths, as he has done exactly this, as well. Its hypocritical of him to come here to file a complaint about me, describing a behavior, he is currently engaged in. Also, he if he correct about me editing against consensus, then he would not need to revert himself---he would leave it to someone else to revert me. But, instead he is the only one who reverts me. Again, if my edit represents something against consensus, then surely, someone--anyone--would revert me, not JohnSmiths. Lastly, his comments here and on the talk page consistently demonstrate a violation of policy: the failure to assume good faith. Hence, his statement that I must be waiting for holidays, Christmas, New Years, in order to make my edit, "hoping that he would be too busy to notice what I'm doing, etc" Classic bad faith. Of course, it didn't occur to him that just maybe that is when I have some free time, in order to edit? Of course not. Lastly, he says I'm not cooperating. Also untrue as proven by my discussions on the talk page. And consensus is not establised by just two users--himself and Fullstop, esp. when they don't address the problem I've raised about bias.Giovanni33 (talk) 19:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni, you are misrepresenting the facts. I reverted having tried to discuss the issue with you on the talk page first - you decided not to interact. I also reverted several hours after a week. You reverted 10 minutes after a week. So, quite clearly, you are comparing apples with oranges.

As for someone else reverting, some users never like to revert unless it's vandalism. Whether people revert or not does not reflect consensus.

To accuse me of bad faith because I believe you acted in bad faith is a rather poor attempt to deflect criticism. Unless you wish to claim that the only free time you have over the next couple of weeks is on Christmas and New Year's Eve, there was no need to push the issue right now. As I said quite clearly you could have continued this matter after the holiday period. To not even attempt to see whether people were free on the talk page is not acting in good faith given how busy a lot of Wikipedians are at this time of year.

Finally, I don't see leaving a comment, reverting and repeating once a week as you have done as being a sign of co-operation. I have said this time and time again - if you cannot spare the time to post, say so and highlight when you are free to talk. Yet for some reason you keep refusing to do this. Why do we have to run around you? John Smith's (talk) 19:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

• You will both stop the foolishness, or you will both be blocked. Revert parole is absolutely not an entitlement, it is a limit. Breaking the spirit while keeping to the letter of a restriction is not acceptable, the intent of the restriction is to get you to stop revert warring not just make the wars slower. Guy (Help!) 10:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Guy, what am I supposed to do? He won't listen to reason - Fullstop has been on at him too. I've complained to admins here and elsewhere, but no action has been taken. If I don't revert he will keep the article as he likes it and then leave it there. In the past I have also not done anything for days, trying to engage him in conversation. Then when I see no response I make a change and hey-presto he appears like magic, reverts, leaves a single comment and disappears for another week.

Are you implying that if he reverts again and I come here first, he will be banned? Some sort of statement would help - otherwise he won't change his behaviour. John Smith's (talk) 11:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The pair of you are pretty much indistinguishable, from a behaviour point of view. What I see there is two competing versions, neither acceptable to the other. The solution is either to achieve consensus for one or other on the discussion page, or to work out a compromise form. Guy (Help!) 12:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Guy, that doesn't answer my question. If Giovanni reverts again can I leave the page alone safe in the knowledge that he will be blocked if reported here? You made a warning by saying "stop.... or you will be blocked", so that implies action will be taken. Can you make it clearer so that a future admin will definitely do something and Giovanni knows where the line is, so he can't complain he didn't know he was doing anything wrong. Otherwise it's another vague warning that he won't take seriously.

The only reason I have reverted is that each time I come here no action is taken against him. If admins such as yourself did block Giovanni for reverting and not properly engaging in discussion then I wouldn't. The effect of the response so far from the admin community is that it's ok for Giovanni to revert because he's sticking to the letter of the rules, but wrong when I respond because it goes against the spirit. That would essentially give him the right to edit any article I work on as he likes and ignore what others want. I have discussed various issues with him for almost a whole year now. He isn't some casual editor who it is easy to work something else out - he is never happy until he gets his own way. I worked out a compromise version with User:Fullstop and Giovanni - Giovanni then wanted to change that to another version which he insisted on by himself. I'm not saying that is what you think, but it's what the previous comments from admins amounts to.

If you honestly believe I'm no different from Giovanni, read what Fullstop had to say here. He is a completely neutral editor in this whole affair, only becoming involved after I asked a style question on a page he frequents. John Smith's (talk) 13:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, the solution os for both of you to stop edit warring ans start discussing. If he refuses to discuss, and if there is consensus on the talk page for your preferred version, and he reverts anyway, then it's an unambiguous case. Joining in the slow-burning (and distinctly lame) edit war only makes it impossible to distinguish between you. Guy (Help!) 16:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Guy, for seeing through JohnSmiths dishonesty here; the obvious fact is that we were both reverting each other, just after one week (with no other editors reverting)--and this is not what should be done. JohnSmiths should really give admins here more credit; painting a very one sided picture here, in an attempt to bully his way via intimitation, instead of reason, to get his version, will not work. As for myself, I'll seek, through a Rfc, others editors to look over the dispute and see if there can be some consensus that is reached. I hope JohnSmith will stop his weekly revert, and if he continues when its clearly against consensus, I hope that your warning to both of us here suffices as an adequate warning to his ongoing behaviors that violate the spirit of the revert parole, not to mention his throwing rocks while himself living a house of glass.heheGiovanni33 (talk) 06:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

So does this mean that you will stop your weekly revert, Giovanni? Also you might want to state whether you need to agree to something for it to be consensus. I'm sorry it had to come to this, but I don't think you would have made any commitment to seek outside help if I hadn't reverted you and reported you here. The repeated comments from Fullstop and myself weren't succeeding in encouraging you to seek outside help so something else had to be tried. John Smith's (talk) 07:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Both warned. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Pocopocopocopoco

User:Pocopocopocopoco is mass reverting and reinserting the closed Wikiproject Karabakh tag, without leaving any comment , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . That's 17 reverts or (re)insertions within 30 minutes. Atabek (talk) 22:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Is he the subject of any arbitration ruling? I can't see that he is. This is for enforcing arbitration decisions only, not dealing with disputes. Contact him via his talk page and if necessary go the administrators' board.

When you do ask for an arbitration ruling to be enforced, please list each new case at the bottom. John Smith's (talk) 22:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The contributor is already involved in edit wars in several articles on the topic of Armenia-Azerbaijan. The relevant ArbCom stated a remedy on applicability to all disruptive editors, under which User:Aynabend and User:Andranikpasha have already been placed under parole for disruptive editing. That's why I reported the mass reverting to WP:AE as it deals specifically with Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 22:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Bah. I've rolled back all his edits, which made no sense as that WikiProject isn't going to be allowed to exist for at least another month. Thinking about other stuff as well, maybe. Moreschi 22:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No, leaving this for now. I've left a warning against making future mass reverts. He's not an ultra-regular participant in the Armenia-Azeri conflicts and edits regularly in other areas, nor is he subject to any of the AA2 restrictions: moreoever, his recent block for edit-warring was related to another topic altogether. Moreschi 22:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Well shouldn't User:Parishan be placed under AA2 restrictions then? Since he mass reverted and is an ultra-regular participant in the Armenia-Azeri conflicts and all his blocks are related to the conflict.-- Ευπάτωρ 23:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I reverted them before the warning was issued. I've only been blocked three times and my most recent block was not related to the conflict, and was carried out almost 10 months ago. Parishan (talk) 23:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)