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Russia Unassessed

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Ordered by Lenin

Was the Red Terror ordered by Lenin, or by the other members of the Bolshevik leadership? Was Lenin incapacitated at the time? I am interested in the degree to which Lenin was personally responsible. Kent Wang 08:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

From what I gathered, the (original declaration of the Red Terror):

"We will turn our hearts into steel, which we will temper in the fire of suffering and the blood of fighters for freedom. We will make our hearts cruel, hard, and immovable, so that no mercy will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea. Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinovief and Volodarski, let there be floods of the blood of the bourgeois - more blood, as much as possible." 154.5.39.80 06:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This article should be divided to several articles

I think Red Terror in Russia, Estonia and Hungary should be made as separate articles, because all of them are different events, although there is significant similarity. It says in the beginning: "The Red Terror was a campaign of mass arrests, deportations, and executions targeted against counterrevolutionaries in Russia during the Russian Civil War." This is more or less correct, but this is Russia in 1918, not Estonia in 1940s. Any thoughts? Biophys 22:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Currently the article is a mess. The Estonial part is unreferenced. The hungarian part does not say whether the term "vörös terror" was used at these times. It is unclear whether these pieces deserve separate articles. Russian Red Terror was an official term. Other countries may well be political epithets, possibly directly borrowed from Bolshevik phraseology or possibly introduced postfactum, in modern times. Am an not an expert here, these are just my suspicions based on an experience of observation how easily people use the same word in other contexts for political purposes. The first and foremost thing is to have a well-written and referenced texts about the corresponding histories, not to define more usages of a political buzzword. See my dialog: User_talk:Gubbubu#Red_Terror. `'mikka 23:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I partly agree. The Estonian part definitely looks like POV fork. Everything should be sourced. I will try to improve this article later.Biophys 04:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think Red Terror (Hungary) should be a separate article, just as Red Terror (Spain). The Estonian part, if no references found, probably should be removed. I will check sources.Biophys 05:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

You did not address my major concern, which is expanded further: the Red Terror (Spain) article gives no hints who and when used the term "red terror" in application to the events in question. Once again, it must be clearly established whether it is a well-known term applied to the events in question, whether the term was used by supporters or the opponents of the terror or it was the later coinage by historians. You cannot introduce terms arbitrarily. `'mikka 20:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. As an explanation of my concern, as you may know people like to slap political epithets retroactively and overgeneralized. Examples of abused terms are "holocaust", "ethnic cleansing", "genocide". (It required a serios effor to rid wikipedia of "silicone holocaust", "Native American Holocaust", etc.) I have no doubts that the term "revolutionary terror" was quite popular in Spain or Hungary. The question is whether it is a standard way to term it as "Red Terror", and if yes, there should be very serious scholarly sources to make it an article title to address the corresponding period in the history of the country. `'mikka 20:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you are exactly right. That was originally official term only for Russia. But then it was applied by journalists and writers to anything. Yes, I found publications claiming Red Terror in Estonia and during French Revolution. So, this should be probably reflected in the articles.Biophys 23:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems that some scholarly sources consider Red Terror as an important turning event in the world history, the first of numerous Communist terrors which consumed many countries later, from Eastern Europe to Asia nad Africa. This certainly should be mentioned here.Biophys 16:26, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Problems with first paragraph

Currently, the first paragraph of this article claims that the assasination of Moisei_Uritsky was simultaneous with Fanya Kaplan's attempted assasination of Lenin, and, in my reading of it at least, implies that both incidents were perpetrated by Fanya Kaplan.

However, the Moisei_Uritsky page claims he was assasinated on August 17th by Leonid Kanegeiser. According to this article and the Lenin article the attempt on Lenin's life was two weeks later on August 30th.

I don't really feel qualified to make any changes to this article, but the first para does seem to lack consistency with other pages on here. Tasiel 12:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I will try to correct this as time allows.Biophys 14:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hungarian Red Terror

(moved from talk pages)

Please provide the historical quotations that confirm that the events were called "Red Terror", i.e., that it is not a neologism of modern researchers. `'mikka 15:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• Serch in the google for "vörösterror" or "vörös terror": , but the expression is used from the very early period of the Horthy era. The fact is that even Lukács used it in 1920 in his qouted essay The social hinterland of white terror:

("Mi a vörös terror? A hatalomra jutott proletárosztály el­szánt, erőszakra is kész akaratának intézményes formája avégből, hogy a szocializmushoz vezető út akadályait (ellenforradalom, szabotázs, korrupció, lánckereskedés stb.) eltaka­rítsa a maga útjából. A proletárdiktatúra igazi célja az építés / what means

"what is red terror? The validation of the will of the proletariat grabbed the power to the effect clearing off the road to socialism - fully with barriers: counter-revolution, sabotage, corruption" .

But you can find a lot of quotations, e.g. ; ; ; , ; I think this is more than enough. Naturally, under the time of Rákosi- and Kádár-dictature, it was a quite "prohibited topic"; so in the sources written between 1945 and 1990, you won't find this expression I guess. But I think you can find the expression in "The black book of communism", too (I'm not sure; cause I haven't read yet). And I don't understand what do you mean when saying "it is not the neologism of modern researchers". I think a modern lexikon must follow the science of history and we must not be fixated at historans of ancient ages. ♥♥♥: Gubb  ✍    2007. May 4 16:41 (CEST) 16:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Please keep in mind this is not a personal question made out of curiosity or doubt. In addition to description of the events, you must clearly describe and refer the usage of the expression in the article. A separate article is also a good idea. `'mikka 17:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

You write: Naturally, under the time of Rákosi- and Kádár-dictature, it was a quite "prohibited topic". I fail to see why "naturally prohibited" Red Terror (i.e., elimination of enemies of worker class) was A Good Thing from the point of view of communists. `'mikka 23:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, to communists there are two kinds of terror: double-plus-good "revolutional terror" and double-minus-not-good "white terror". But despite of this, Red Terror was a prohibited topic. You weren't able to say "June 26: Szamuely killed 9 men in Ujpest", you had to say that instead "There were local conflicts at ... and ..., but the red power solved them effectively". And so on (it is familiar for me: communist pov pushers editing, "correcting facts" and "poving" here in English Misplaced Pages with the exactly same terminology). And of course you weren't able to Szamuely hanged mercantiles because they didn't want to pay him certain sum of money (yes: this is simple extortion or robbing, as you like - of course "it couldn't happened during a Soviet power, no way"). I think you know what I mean: euphemism, half-justice, and recolourintg facts. And in Kadar-era - "the most joyful bunk", if you know what I mean - what based on the consolidation and living together with "enemies" of communism (Kádár said "who is not against us, is with us" referring to Rakosi's famous Bible-paraphrase "The one who is not with us is against us"). So it was comfortless to the system reminding people there were once - and twice and three times - a red terror: it was quite enough hard for Kadar to make his image "the benignant grandfather who reformed communism, stopped the Rákosi-terror and gives the folk bread what costs 3.60 Ft. (so cheap, you know)". Communism is good, communism is peace, communism is heaven, communism equals progressivism - so the Rákosi terror had to be a bad, but one-time deflection - and if people spoke about that communism was terror between 1918 and 1919, communism wasd terror between 1947 and 1956 (what's more sad communism was terror between 1956 and 1970)? You see this is a big cognitive dissonance and the simplest kadarist solving of that is choking. So I think you won't find a school history book written between 1960 and 1989 what would use the expression "red terror" or would speak about Lenin boys more then in one sentence. One of the reasons of this is that what I said. Gubbubu 07:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What you write is interesting. You seem to say that while in Russia ideologists were not ashamed of the term "Red Terror", in Hungary it was different. Like I wrote, this is NOT my personal curiosity. The goal is to improve the article. therefore I would like to see (in the article) the following info (supplied with reputable references)

• Was the term 'Vörösterror' used during the period of terror? (I know that the term 'Vörös' was in use to imply 'revolutionary', like, 'Vörös katonák')
• If the term was abandoned afterwards, why? (quoted opinions)
• If the term is used now, since when? Is there any opposition to its use today?
• Please give Hungarian versions of various specific historical terms like "Lenin Boys" or "requiration patrols" (I guess you meant "requisition patrols")

Once again, please don't waste your time in the talk pages. We don't have a disagreeent. Just work with the article. Thank you, `'Miikka 15:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not a historical linguist, and I don't think a term in itself is so interesting in this article. But I can say that:

1. I don't know whether "vörösterror" was used, but "terror", "revolutional terror" surely was (in the hungarian article you can read some quote). It is hard to say, because we don't have many documents from that time. The era around 1918 and 1920 was so chaotic, bloody and "acute" (world war, revolution, romanian occupation), so I think men rather done history then labouring out historical terminology (but George Lukács in an article I mentioned to you used the expression "red terror"). You see, that is not sure at all there are exact answers to your questions, mainliy if you want indisputable references, they are too exact and probably requiring original research.
2. Like above;
3. Like above. I don't know about serious opposition of the term, I think even communist historians (if there are any nowadays) don't deny the fact, quarrels between hungarian historians rather happen in more particular, but politically serious things (number of victims: how many was, was white terror "more terroristic" than red terror or red terror was "more terroristic", was red terrorism a progressive, humanist, moral movement because bad white terrorists inhibited poor communists, what was before what: the chicken or the egg, etc.)
4. Hungarian analogons of the expression can be given easily, I will do it. Yes, I meant that. Thx for correcting. Gubbubu 08:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Just a minor point about the hungarian part. It states that red terror happened during the Hungarian Soviet RepueenFblic. I believe that the term here would be Hungarian Soviet Republic, but since I don't know a word of hungarian, I'd rather leave the edit to someone who knows anything about the topic. Thanks in advance! 141.76.40.139 07:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

In my view, the article is still seriously biased. In Hungary during the Soviet Republic there was no red terror to speak of (after the Great War, when many people became simply barbaric and many men had weapons, 500 and odd executions, may be unjust, but such number is very low. The gendarmie killed many more people from the collapse of the army of the Monarchy to 21 March 1919). Kun had to explain himself to Lenin for the lack of repressions. Even the murderous trainy officers (cadets) of the coup d'etat of July were pardonned (mainly for foreign policy reasons). If you read the extremely biased book of Váry (afterall, what do you expect in 1922? - as if you expected Goebbels to write an objective report on Hitler. It was an untouchable subject until 1945 - about 1918-19 nobody could write objectively, either throwing mud, or nothing. Also, did you read the reference to Kodolányi? 1944... Do you expect an objective account from that year?), it is clear, that the executions took place where there were anti-government revolts. It could be argued that the revolts had basis, but not that the executions did not. The Hungarian Soviet Republic was surprisingly soft in the period, compared to either other revolutions or counter-revolutions.

As to the other subject: it was called red terror in Hungarian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lacz (talk • contribs) 16:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

So, if to summarize your discussion, Hungarian Red Terror belongs here. That was a consensus opinion, and I agree here too. Then, such sudden and unjustified deletion of text is not appropriate and contradicts official WP:NPOV policy.02:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Problematic edits

My recent citation of Richard Pipes on the Communist terror has been reverted twice by user Strothra. That was done without any explanation and justification. I would appreciate if he explained his reverts. Well, I am not going to begin an RR war. Instead, I will work seriously to improve this article, which is not in a good shape at the moment.Biophys 03:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

While Pipes is a historian, your addition to the article contributed nothing encyclopedic. It added only vague opinion and interpretation, not research. Further, it was completely off-topic as it placed under the "Purpose of the Soviet Red Terror." Please keep in mind that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox. Also note that much of Pipes' research is now quite dated and there are many newer and insightful studies that make far greater usage of documentation not examined in his works. --Strothra 03:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

It is completely appropriate to include opinions of notable historians, such as Richard Pipes in WP. Such opinions are cited in many WP articles. If you think Pipes is wrong, you are welcome to add alternative opinions supported by reliable sources here, per WP:NPOV. It is appropriate to cite opinions about Red Terror in article about Red Terror. This has nothing to do with soapbox. I cite a scholarly book, not a newspaper article.Biophys —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 03:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Citation of Richard Pipes has been deleted again on the following grounds: "the article about red terror, not about Pipes view". First of all, this is not simply someone's published opinion, this is one of conclusions made by a prominent researcher who dedicated his life to study of Communist systems. Obviously, it is appropriate to cite expert opinions about Communist Terror in article about Communist Terror. Once again, if you think that citing Pipes is POV, you are welcome to add alternative opinions supported by reliable sources, per WP:NPOV. But I am very forthcoming and can cite myself several opinions/conclusions by experts, instead of one. That is not a problem, since there are numerous scholarly sources on this subject.Biophys 13:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Although it is an opinion it is notable opinion based on facts and helps to understand the concept better. If you have any other opinions contradicting this one, please feel free to add them to the article. Thus I have restored it for now. Suva Чего? 13:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

there are tons of books written about red terror. We need a coherent text describing events not sequence of citations of opinions and speculations. Whoever Pipes was, wikipedia needs facts, not lengthy citations of witty but biased historical comparisons from an obvious political enemy. The main point was already made in the first paragraph: Pipes says that violence is inherent in Bolshevik theory and politics. OK. No one argues with this. The whole revolution thing was about violence and carnage of political enemies. `'Míkka 14:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Mikka is correct. The article must be encyclopedic. The only way to do that is to address the historical nature of the event - the who, what, when, where, how, why. Counterfactuals and lengthy quotes that are vague and tell us nothing do not add to the article. Just because Pipes said something does not make it encyclopedic. --Strothra 14:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Then I must remind you that we all must follow WP:NPOV policy which say the following:

"All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors.

One can not suppress alternative positions here by deleting opinions supported by reliable sources. What I am using in not just a reliable source; this is a scholarly book written by a notable historian Richard Pipes. By the same token, opinions of other notable experts can be represented here as well.Biophys 14:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV has nothing to do with this. Pipes' views are certainly not alternative views to the mainstream. The point of this matter is content. You are not incorporating Pipes' research, but rather his opinion. This article is not about opinions of the Red Terror, it's about the Red Terror itself. What happened, who did it, why it happened, how it was taken out, where it occurred, etc. That information is what is encyclopedic. The conclusions you are including are being done in order to make your own point, thus tuning Wiki into your own personal soapbox and violating WP:NPOV.--Strothra 15:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Then you should read this again: "representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)" (WP:NPOV) It does not tell "facts". It tells "views". I agree that Pipes conclusions are "mainstream". But deletion of mainstream opinion is even worse, since mainstream views must be represented with a higher weight in WP per WP:NPOV. But I did not promote my opinion here. Obviously, this is conclusion by Pipes, not by me. To make this absolutely clear, I even cited him directly rather than providing my summary of his view(s). Well, then I must also cite directly other authors, to avoid your unfounded accusations that I am promoting my views.Biophys 15:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I am not going to do any RR warring here. Let's be more productive. I will work to expand this article and fairly represent the facts as well as various scholarly opinions on this subject, in agreement with WP:NPOV.Biophys 15:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:DICK, experienced editors know the policies. I made my point already, you simply refuse to understand it correctly. --Strothra 03:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I took a look. WP:DICK says: "This is an essay. It expresses the opinions and ideas of some Meta-Wiki users but may not have wide support. This is not policy...". What I am telling about is official WP policy. It says:

"All Misplaced Pages articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors.

So, let's follow this policy exactly. WP:NPOV says: "This is non-negotiable". So be it.Biophys 16:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine, I made a compromise version. Main idea of the cited statement by Pipes is that Red Terror and Marxism are related. He may be right or wrong, but that is what he is telling.Biophys 16:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Please, no POV forks here!

Template:Fool-scale discussion

A new reference about Pipes just has been included. If this author has something to tell about Red Terror (which could be different from the cited opinion by Pipes), it belongs here. But if author tells something about Pipes, it belongs to article about Pipes.Biophys 18:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

It provides context. ref only because it is "likely to be challenged". ref can be removed of course, if this is not the case.Anonimu 18:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I mean the following. It is perfectly fine to represent here "pro-Communist" and "anti-Communist" views on Red Terror, in standard "pro" and "contra" style. In fact, some Communist views on Red Terror are already presented in the beginning of this article. But we are not going to include a long discussion about Richard Pipes political views, professional qualification, etc. in this article as completely irrelevant and described in another article. You wrote that he was "an anti-communist". I will write how many books did he published on Russian history and how many awards did he received. Do not you see where this leads? Such things indeed do not belong here.Biophys 19:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW, "pro-Communist" and "anti-Communist" views on Red Terror are identical. Lenin tells that Red terror is absolutely neccessary, and Richard Pipes confirmes: yes, Lenin was right, it was indeed neccessary for communists to stay in power. What differs is their moral values.Biophys 19:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Since Communist views are clearly identified as such, it is normal for the anti-communist view to be also. The claim the bolshevics had no popular support is certainly an unorthodox view.Anonimu 19:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, no, not exactly, since in today's world (16 years after Communism died a well-deserved death), an anti-Communist POV is standard and neutral, while a Communist one is an anachronistic aberration in league with absolute monarchism or flat-earthism. Biruitorul 06:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh wel,, like i'd believe you...Anonimu 12:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

O'K, it will be easier to fix than to discuss. It is well known that bolshevics had no significant popular support. They only got a quarter of the vote at the height of their popularity in the elections. They were also unpopular among industrial workers. Massive strikes by Russian workers were "mercilessly" (as Lenin said) suppressed during Red terror - is it missing here? Well, this should be included.Biophys 20:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

How come they got in power then? There were not supported by a foreign state's army and they weren't part of the old ruling class to have access to vast resources.Anonimu 21:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

It was, as Trotsky said, a revolution "by telegraph" - in many areas, the Soviets didn't hold power but said they did, issuing decrees by telegraph, and opposition melted away. Biruitorul 06:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This means those guys were frekin stupid. Thanks God commies come to power to spread education amongst the masses.Anonimu 12:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

A decisive and military-organized Party does not need much popular support to came to power (2% of population is enough), if they operate in a Failed state ("weak link"). All they needed is a few thousands of fanatics who can organize Red Terror. That is what Lenin realized and implemented. Of course, that was not easy. After the October Revolution, no one in the West believed that bolsheviks can survive for long.Biophys 21:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

And yet they could conquer the world largest country (or second, i'm not sure if the britannic empire was larger). The Red Army was probably made of Dragos.Anonimu 22:04, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. Cheka shoot those Red Army Dragos (just people like you or me) "like dogs" when they deserted in hundreds of thousands.Biophys 23:23, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

But these Cheka agents also had to be quite numerous and well trained to do it, cause desserters take the guns with them and can oppose fierce resistance.Anonimu 00:09, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Right. Hence the Pitchfork Uprising, Tambov Rebellion, Makhno, and others. You probably have no idea that Russian Civil War was not between Reds and Whites, but mostly between Reds and "Greens", that is civilians (based on the numbers of victims). But Cheka was represented by Internal Troops with guns and chemical weapons, plus Red Army (thouse who fought for whatever reason, such as not to be shot themselves).Biophys 00:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, the Reds were some real muthafuckers... they fought the whites, greens, anarchists, ethnic nationalist, czechs, brits, yankees, japs, frenchies, romanians etc and they won. they almost eliminated poles, but shit happens and they had to settle with an armistice. nevertheless, that's a great lesson on how to defend your ideals.Anonimu 00:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Anonimu, I hope you're just posturing with that comment, because if it's really your opinion (e.g. that failing to completely exterminate the Poles falls under the category of "shit happens"), that would make you not simply a political radical but an open advocate of mass murder. This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever heard said by anyone on the Wiki or anywhere else for that matter, and I think I may be so bold as to say that you owe us at least an explanation. K. Lásztocska 18:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

So, that is your level of discussion. You believe that killing innocent civilians is "defending ideals". I have nothing to answer here. Let God be your judge.Biophys 03:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think God judges oppinions. After all, he gave us free will.Anonimu 12:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Oy vey, while I agree that Biophys is attempting to use the article as a soapbox and not adding encyclopedic info to it, I do think that Anonimu is simplifying those events far beyond reason. Please read a book, suggested titles and authors: Orlando Figes, A People's Tragedy; Sheila Fitzpatrick, The Russian Revolution; Paul Milyukov, The Russian Revolution; Alexander Rabinowitch, The Bolsheviks Come to Power; Rex Wade, The Bolshevik Revolution and the Russian Civil War; Evan Mawdsley, The Russian Civil War; Anton Denikin, The Russian Turmoil; Iurii Got'e, Time of Troubles. --Strothra 06:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I edited my above comments to reflect recent changes in the article made by Biophys that are substantial improvements. --Strothra 06:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

What simplifying? I just noted that the guy cited is a well known anti-communist.Anonimu 12:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is someone who vigorously defended the murder of 200 unarmed civilians, so him calling victims of the Red Terror collateral damage in the process of "defending ideals" is hardly surprising. Biruitorul 06:56, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

When border guards point guns at you and tell not to pass the border, you fuckin stop. If you don't, you're virtually commiting suicide.Anonimu 12:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The utter moral depravity of that statement is chilling, and I am shocked to read it on Misplaced Pages. However, for the record, democracies don't act that way. If one unarmed Mexican were killed crossing into the US, much less 200, the uproar would be tremendous and the US would likely pay reparations. But the Soviet Union wasn't a normal country; it was the epicenter of a demented ideology, determined to spread it round the world, no matter the cost (and the cost was, and continues to be, astronomical). Biruitorul 02:04, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, we all know you're very far from being objective. Contrary to what some may say, rules are not made to be broken.Anonimu 10:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

No human being, myself and yourself included, ever can be 100% objective, so that comment is fairly meaningless. K. Lásztocska 11:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in Soviet Union many things were suicide. For example owning a farm. Suva Чего? 13:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I invite you to pass the US-Mexico border without any document and continue to walk no mather what the border guards say.Anonimu 14:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me? If I depart from the U.S. and the U.S. (not Mexican) border guard shoots, the guys quite obviously should run into immense problems. Colchicum 15:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wanna bet? who volunteers?Anonimu 16:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yes, God has given us free will and doesn't judge us here, but certainly will do that there. Be patient. Colchicum 16:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

As about fools and "fool-scale discussion", I would like to borrow this citation from page of TDC:

Never argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. -Patrick Henry. Biophys 19:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

How right he is. I'm glad you acknowledge it. ;)Anonimu 19:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, please stop feeding the troll and restrict discussion solely to article edits and content. --Strothra 02:32, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is clearly a work of bourgeois propaganda designed to besmirch Lenin's name. I am not denying that the Red Terror happened, or that a handful of people died at the hands of communists. But the language of the article is designed to make the reader side with the dead capitalists rather than the brave workers who were trying to emancipate themselves from wage slavery. Yet this article makes it seemed as if those killed were innocent. When in reality the "victims" of the red terror were criminals under the former aristrocratic rule. And lastly your final argument that killing that many is so horrible and inhuman, such talk is simply foolish. What are a handful dead compared to millions of living? You could say these "victims" died for a greater good. Of course thinking so logically would make me "immoral" according to your invisible man in the sky, your beloved god. (75.74.193.101 21:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC))

Can I please add a "ur mom" joke here now? :) Suva Чего? 21:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I wasn't logged on when I posted that, sorry about that. But my point stands, the language in the article is designed to steer the reader to believe that the Bolsheviks basically went around killing anyone that looked at them the wrong way. Furthermore you cannot tie in ethics to politics. Ethics would be all well and good if humans were not the naturally violent beings that we are, the sad thing is that our species only responds to violence and bloodshed. The only way to free Russia from the aristrocrats and the capitalists was to round them up and shot them, do you expect the Bolsheviks to simply as their sworn enemies to leave the country? Or better yet, just don't bother them for awhile? (Demigod Ron 21:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC))

So what you basically are saying that the bolsheviks didn't go around killing anyone that looked at them the wrong way but they first rounded up everyone who looked at them wrong way and then shot them? Suva Чего? 21:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Jokes aside, the whole joke is that Bolsheviks first killed off aristocrates and capitalists, then started killing who looked at them the wrong way, and then proceeded to killing just in case, and finished frantically killing each other. `'Míkka 21:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

On another note (jokes aside) after just reading the article, I find the article to be NPOV compliant. The text Demigod Ron presented is point of view and such point of view is already in article and finely sourced. I do admit the overall tone forms to be negative, but hell, how can you write article about mass murders of MILLIONS of people in positive tone. Suva Чего? 22:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

"Mass murder" is a subjective phrase. The Red Terror served two purposes, 1. to purge the old oppressive classes from Russia, and 2. to retaliate against the murder of Uritsky and the attempted murder of Lenin. Therefore the red terror was as justified as the American invasion of Afghanistan following the 9/11 attacks. (Demigod Ron 18:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC))

To replace one oppressive force with other oppressive force while killing thousands innocent people. Criminals also think that when they steal something and police captures them, then they are innocent and police are the bastards so this must be revenged. Truth is, some people decided to replace other people from the top and they used violence and terror as method and Marxist bubble as excuse. Suva Чего? 18:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You're saying that aristrocrats and capitalists are innocent? So oppressing the masses is not a crime is it? What about murder? When Urisky was murdered how were the Bolsheviks sepposed to responds? Do you not believe in retribution? Should crimes simply go unpunished? If the Bolsheviks stood by after Urisky's death, they would have been eliminated one by one and the aristrocacy would have taken hold of Russia again and plunged it back to feudalism. (Demigod Ron 02:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC))

DO you think that Bolsheviks were not oppressors? The Urisky was just another excuse. Lenins assassination attempt was also excuse, even historic and incorrect at that: The first attempt was later the bolsheviks had started red terror. The facts are:

1) Lenin wanted power.

2) Aristocrats were in the way.

3) They were eliminated and replaced by bolsheviks.

4) New oppressors took position, but everyone who said that instead saying "they are liberators" were killed. So new liberators of working class were born! Suva Чего? 06:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The difference between excuse and reason is completely subjective. Let us take the example of world war 1, the assassination of Ferdinand could be said to have been the reason that the war began, or an excuse for the capitalist powers to finally duke it out to divide the world amongst themselves. Naturally anyone saying that Ferdinand's death was a reason would bring up stirring images of patriotism. Now let us consider Urisky's death. You, who belives that the red terror had secret motives besides the stated purging of the previous ruling classes (an act that is almost mandated after any revolution be it aristrocratic, bourgeois or proletariat) would say that the death of Urisky was an excuse to quietly dispose of a handful of people. I on the other hand, would say that Urisky's death triggered the tensions between the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy and the Bolsheviks (who with the help of the Russian people had already defeated these groups.) Furtheremore the red terror largely occured during the Russian civil war. And you cannot possibly have the same standards during peacetime as you have during a time when a nation is being besieged by groups that are supported by the most powerful nations in the world.

Your facts are something that Pipes (or any other man who is preaching against true greats like Lenin and Marx in order to not be lost to the pages of history) would dream up.

1) Lenin had already been elected chairman, what more power could he possibly have beyond that?

2) The aristrocrats were fighting the Red Army during this time. Most of the "victims" were most likely cassualties of war, or people that would overthrow the new state.

3) It was not just the Bolsheviks that took part in this play, you forget that local soviets too rounded up aristrocrats and bourgeois. Thus the people of Russia are to blame for the red terror.

4) While I as a Trotskyist agree that Stalin is the embodiment of evil. Russia was much better off while Lenin was in office. If the Bolsheviks of this period were the new oppressors, then they were doing a horrible job of oppressing by giving electricity to the entire nation, giving the farmers new equipment and granting women all the rights of men.

Since you cannot possibly argue against this dialetic truth, surely you will now quote your precious Black book of Communism. (Demigod Ron 01:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

Religion is fun thing. Be it Christian, Marxist or Satanist. I am neither of them, and I don't have holy book to cite (except K&R maybe). Suva Чего? 07:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well if you want to talk about mass murder, it begins and ends with religions! Be it Crusades or Jihads there have been plenty of people killed in the names of the imaginary friends of certain leaders. With the exeption of the buddhists of course, their hands are largely clean. Perhaps vegetarianism is the key to world peace? ....Oh and Marxism is not a religion, we don't bow to anyone or sacrifice virgins. And even if it did help the revolutionary, we wouldn't do it... (Demigod Ron 18:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

Well, actually you did. Many russian people, surely including virgins. All for the cause of revolution. Suva Чего? 19:18, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Now you're just splitting hairs. The proper term would be: "counterrevolutionaries who were premenently prevented from corrupting the revolutionary effort." Not "mass murder" or "sacrificed in the name of the revolution." Another cannot sacrifise you in the name of the revolution, you must make that decision on your own and choose to die for the greater good of the proletariat rather than selfishly hold on to your life. (In reality all of us are but peices of humanity, parts of a greater whole. One life is irrelevant if it can help thousands.) Secondly the Russian virgins were not sacrificed, not were the Bolsheviks even targeting virgins. If an aristrocrat happened to be a virgin then she would be prevented from corrupting the revolution like any other aristrocrat, irrelevant of whether or not she is a virgin. The Bolsheviks did not walk down the street and knock on every door then asked if there were any virgins inside that they could throw into a volcano. I'm sure that everyone has noticed that this discussion has been so far removed from it's original focus that it's become pointless. (Demigod Ron 02:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

You may also notice the template in front of this conversation which has been there for quite some time. Don't waste your time on this thread unless you want to continue the pointless debate with me. Noone will gain anything from this. Suva Чего? 06:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Debate with you? So you're the vanguard of the bourgeois version of the truth for this specific event. Interesting, was an election held or did you just step in and take that assignment? (Demigod Ron 03:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

I got this position by evilly oppressing the working class of wikipedia with my capitalism. Suva Чего? 07:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful, then I am here to liberate them from your tyranny and build the dicatorship of the proletariat. You cannot have change without conflict, and you cannot have conflict without opposing forces. So I thank you Suva, the world needs people who are wrong so it can see the truth.(Demigod Ron 21:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC))

Red terror in other contries

Someone recently included materials about Red Terror in China. I checked this out, and yes, a reliable secondary source (Black Book of Communism) says (page 523): "The Red Terror in Beijing caused approximately 1,700 deaths..." and so on. It is specifiaclly applied to terror campaign in the late 1960th. See also page 482: "Alain Roux's term "Red Terror" app;ies, especially to the year 1951. Another scholarly book by Christopher Andrew and Mitrokhin ("The world was going our way", page 389) said that Taraki in Afganistant practicised Red Terror (it cays exactly "Red Terror", I can cite if needed). Hence, such materials can be present in this article.Biophys 02:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I really do not see any reason to repeatedly delete materials about Red Terror in other countries as Mikallai does. Such campaigns can be briefly mentioned here, which does not preclude any separate and more detailed articles. Let's try to find some consensus.Biophys 20:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't "delete" materiaal. the material is one mouse click away. This article is about Soviet red terror. Please see wikipedia:Summary style about places where summaries are appropriate. Other "red terors" are from "see also" category. `'Míkka 01:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Historical significance of Red Terror

We did not write here about notability of this phenomenon. Julius Martov have written in this regard: "The beast has licked hot human blood. The man-killing machine is brought into motion... But blood breeds blood... We witness the growth of the bitterness of the civil war, the growing bestiality of men engaged in it." (cited from "Black book", page 736). That was an event of great significance, because it has shown an example to many future terror campaigns that folowed in Russia, China, and other countres (one can provide supporting sources of course).Biophys 13:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Dzerdzinsky said about Red Terror : "Our enemies are now suppressed and are in the kingdom of the shadows." (book by George Seldes, You Can't Print That! The Truth Behind the News 1918 to 1928., Kessinger Publishing, LLC, 2004, ISBN 1-41793-909-5). Seldes himself said that "The terror is in the mind and marrow of the present generation and nothing but generations of freedom and liberty will ever root it out.".Biophys 04:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Bourgeois POV

Clearly this article sees the red terror from the eyes of the Russian bourgeoisie. It focuses solely on the suffering of a small group while completely ignoring the larger forces at play during the red terror. Namely the as the terror was happening, Russia was being besieged by a dozen different armies! Armies financed by the most powerful countries of the time. Furthermore, most of the people silenced by the red terror were actively supporting the foreign forces attacking Russia. Is that not called treason? And yet, certain users completely ignore this, instead focusing on yet another atrocity of "communism". In short, while many of you may think that my edits reflect a Leninist POV, it is far closer to the truth that what the article currently is, simply a string of quotes from largely irrelevant anti-communists. Lenin himself stated several times what the purpose of the red terror is and the motivations of the bolsheviks. I have of course tried to include his words in the article, but for some reason class warfare is not a form of violence that many of you approve of, perhaps imperialism is more of your taste eh?

I know that most of you will continue to revert my edits in order to further whatever agendas you may be trying to further. But tons of dirt has already been piled on Lenin's name and deeds by people like Pipes and Conquest. But no matter how hard you all may try to discredit and demonize him, the truth stands on its own. And there will always be people to defend the truth against bourgeois idealists. I'm sure you're all very nice people, but your willingness to warp history for your own ends speaks poorly of your characters.(Demigod Ron 03:58, 11 November 2007 (UTC))

Hello, Demigod Ron. We are not doing any pro-Lenin or anti-Lenin propaganda here. That would be against WP rules. We are simply telling about Lenin's words and deeds, so a reader can decide for himself what was good and what was not. That is encyclopedic approach. This is your edit: . Here you deleted sourced views of Vladimir Lenin himself.

1. He defined this dictatorship as "power that is limited by nothing, by no laws, that is restrained by absolutely no rules, that rests directly on coercion" (reference). But you represented this as words of ...Conquest. No, that was said by Lenin - I can provide more sources with this citation of Lenin; these are his famous words.

2. You also deleted the following passage from Lenin. 'Comrades!... You must make example of these people. (1) Hang (I mean hang publicly, so that people see it) at least 100 kulaks, rich bastards, and known bloodsuckers. (2) Publish their names. (3) Seize all their grain. (4) Single out the hostages per my instructions in yesterday's telegram.

So, do not you see: you are trying to whitewash Lenin by deleting words of Lenin himself. That is contrary to official WP:NPOV policy - deletion of referenced views (in that case views of Lenin). Biophys 04:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

It's both POV and bourgeois to use the term "bourgeois" particularly in this venue. Shouldn't you be out in the street awakening the proletariat rather than sitting at your desk like the rest of the bourgeoisie? In fact, owning a computer is pretty bourgeois - perhaps you should throw yours out. In terms of Wiki policy, edits such as this where you use VI Lenin's writings to extrapolate conclusions are a violation of WP:NOR. Lenin's writings can be presented as historical artifact, but not interpreted in Wiki. However, interpretations of Lenin's writings by notable scholars may be included. --Strothra 05:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The above essay by Demigod Ron sounds like a textbook example of WP:TRUTH. And assertions such as "speaks poorly of your characters" when referring to fellow WP editors sound like clear-cut infringements of WP:NPA to this petty bourgeois. Turgidson 13:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how it's bourgeois to use the term bourgeois. Furthermore, in what pamphlet did Lenin define the dictatorship of the proletariat as "power that is limited by nothing, by no laws, that is restrained by absolutely no rules, that rests directly on coercion"'? Every marxist has the same definition of the dictatorship of the proletariat, just as every Christian has the same definition of Christ. I apologize for deleting Lenin's order to silence the kulaks, their deaths are something to be proud of not to hide. They were after all class enemies of the proletariat. It was an honest mistake on my part. Your argument that Lenin's writings do not belong on this article, but the writings of some two-bit historian do is completely illogical. If you want to know why something was done, do you ask the leader who initiated the campaign or do you ask someone several thousand miles away what he thinks of the leader? This is essentially what you are suggesting. Conquest was less than ten years old during the red terror and living in England, and yet his words are more valuable than Lenin's?

Now, back to me being "bourgeois". This is accusation is likely do to a misunderstanding of what is to be bourgeois. Being bourgeois means that you own the means of production, which I do not. If I did, I would probably be on your side of the battlefield ganging up on some marxist trying to make this article express a bourgeois POV. Owning a computer does not make you bourgeois, owning a factory does.

The suggestion that I go out on the street and enlighten the rest of the proletariat is a good idea, but tragically it's a fool's errand. In America there are 10 or so important socialist parties, a few are marxist and two or three are trotskyist. Despite their best efforts to open the eyes of the American proletariat have failed. Do you know why? America is built on an ideology that naturally lends itself to capitalism, Americans have always believed that unrestrained competition is the golden path and that wealth is a virtue. This is the only country that essentially worships billionaires is it not? Any student of dialectics can see that the forces at work in this country. The bourgeoisie, the international bourgeoisie knows that America is a bunker they can rely on but must protect. Whoever controls this bunker essentially controls the world, which is why the American media has produced so much garbage and why the American masses are encouraged to go on insane (and distracting) crusades fueled by different false consciousnesses (the contemporary one being gay liberation). Now that I've said this, you will all probably think "well Ron, why don't you just give up?" To which I say, did Lenin give up when he was exiled to Siberia? No... Did Trotsky give up when he was exiled from the nation he fought for, even though he had been handpicked to guide the Russian proletariat? No, he didn't... And while there are no more Lenins or Trotskys left, we must learn from their example and not surrender a single inch to our enemies unless we fight them tooth and nail for it.(Demigod Ron 21:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC))

Oy, this is not a forum for your political rants. Discussion should be limited to article edits only in the context of Wiki policy. --Strothra 21:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm merely answering the questions addressed at me. But because the assault was so vicious that my defense just as thorough. (Demigod Ron 22:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC))

Right, ok...Anyway, you still can't add your own assessments, interpretations, value judgments, etc. drawn from primary sources such as VI Lenin's works. You can, however, discuss the scholarly debate over those works per WP:NOR. It just has to be balanced per WP:NPOV. --Strothra 22:14, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that Lenin's definition of the dictatorship of the proletariat is POV. But Conquest making up a definition and claiming that Lenin said that is not POV. (Demigod Ron 23:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC))

No, I never said that it was POV. What would be POV is for you to include quotations from VI Lenin and then to expand upon them without your expansions being cited by reliable sources. --Strothra 01:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

So you agree with me that we should use the Marxist definition of the dictatorship of the proletariat rather than Conquest's obcervations and what he thinks it is. (Demigod Ron 17:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC))

No. We are not going to decide whose definition was right. That would be OR. According to WP guidelines, we are going to describe what reliable secondary sources are telling about Red Terror. Such sources are books by Robert Conquest, Richard Pipes and others.Biophys 18:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Biophys. Also, however, the Marxist definitions of dictatorship can be included as contrast to scholarly works. --Strothra 17:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You are right, but are you sure that dictatorship of proletariat belongs to this article? According to Marxist "theory", dictatorship of proletariat is "a temporary state between the capitalist society and the classless and stateless communist society". So, Red Terror was the "dictatorship of proletariat" after all? Sounds strange to me, since many thousands of Russian workers were executed as a result of their own dictatorship... Biophys 22:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right on that point, yes. --Strothra (talk) 05:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, and All That Jazz. As Niccolò Machiavelli once said, "The end justifies the means". Or, as Demigod Ron said above, "I apologize for deleting Lenin's order to silence the kulaks, their deaths are something to be proud of not to hide." This reminds me of that old French saying, à chacun son goût. Turgidson 23:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The dictatorship of the proletariat is the stage between capitalism and communism. Thus the dicatorship is socialism, that is a society that is controlled by the workers. Which means that including Conquest's definition of the dictatorship is largely irrelevant, since every Marxist knows that the dictatorship of the proletariat is socialism just as the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie is capitalism. But I understand that this article has been carefuly worded to incite anti-Marxist sentiment in the general uninformed and unenlightened public. You all seem to forget that the Red Scare is over. (Demigod Ron (talk) 02:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC))

There are two possibilities. Either you want to make a point that Red Terror was dictatorship of proletariat, or dictatorship of proletariat does not belong to this article.Biophys (talk) 13:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

The red terror was nothing more than the post-revolutionary defence set up against the reactionary classes by the proletariat to prevent a counter-revolution. The dictatorship of the proletariat would come dirrectly after the terror, when the proletariat has access to all the state machinery and can govern without worry of a counter-revolution. Obviously, the terror came a bit late in Russia since as the former ruling classes were being removed, a counter-revolution was already happening. Of course this means that the dicatorship of the proletariat has no place in an article about the Red Terror, just like Russian feudalism has no place. The dictatorship of the proletariat was the bright future that Russia never reached, while feudalism is it's past. (Demigod Ron (talk) 20:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC))

Nandigram

The mentions of Nandigram violence should be removed from the article. This is a spin-off produced by an edit-war at Communist Party of India (Marxist), and applying the term 'Red terror' to Nandigram is an obvious attempt to push pov. The Nandigram violence, be it a very tragic episode, is essentially an violent conflict between different political parties in a local setting of a multi-party system. There is a communist-led state government, but this is a state government that operates within a capitalist framework. The fact that the term 'Red terror' has been used in newsmedia does not per se warrant a comparison to the Soviet Great Purge of the 1930s. --Soman (talk) 09:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Check the nandigram violance article. Numerous media sources have used the term "Red Terror" to describe it. It's definitely a notable comparison.Ghanadar galpa (talk) 12:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my point. This article is on the historical phenomenon 'Red terror', not incidents labelled as 'Red terror'. --Soman (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

There are already mentions of red terror in China and other places. Clearly several Communist genocides, including the one in India, have been inspired by this one.Ghanadar galpa (talk) 12:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

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