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Homeopathic criticism of meta-analyses

Homeopathic criticism of meta-analyses is that (a) these face difficulty in controlling for the combination of publication bias and (b) that studies of homeopathy are generally flawed in design. Since JamesStewart7 has written "All the homeopaths I have heard are just pointing to "flawed design" without ever specifiying with this means." - I will again specify:

(1) Only when investigators chose to limit their analysis to large-scale studies in which primarily one homeopathic medicine was prescribed to every patient without the usual need for individualization of treatment common to quality homeopathic care did the statistical significance from homeopathic treatment vanish. While it is true that a single homeopathic medicine can sometimes be effective in the treatment of specific conditions, as observed in the Oscillococcinum trials in the treatment of influenza and influenza-like syndrome or Kali bichromicum in the treatment of people with COPD, this result is an exception to the rule.

(2) In this article's "Research on medical effectiveness" section there is the statement "'Systematic reviews conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial" followed by links to specific studies such as "Homeopathy for chronic asthma" . In that very article, there is the very significant statement: "Standardised treatments in these trials are unlikely to represent common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised."

Unless JamesStewart7 and others understand that "common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised" means that there usually is no one specific homeopathic remedy that is used to treat a specific condition, then they will continue to miss the point. This key feature of homeopathy cannot be ignored in such trials, and those same flawed trials obviously cannot be used as an argument against homeopathic efficacy!

• There is the well-known principle (among homeopaths) that unless the homeopathic remedy (and the "potency" level) is specifically chosen on the basis of the totality of the patient's psychological and physical symptom presentation, then it will simply have no effect.
• With that said, there are "polycrests" (remedies that affect more specific simple symptoms, without the need to get into psychological considerations). A simple example that I utilize many times daily is in regard to patients in my clinic with low back pain. If Rhus tox. was used for all of them, then only a certain percentage would improve. If Bryonia alba was used for all of them, then only a certain percentage would improve. But if you administer Rhus tox. to those whose symptomatology is worse when sitting and on first getting up (and better with walking), then almost all will improve. If you administer Bryonia alba to those whose symptomatology is better on resting and no movement, then almost all will improve. These are my clinical observations.
• The skill and experience of the one administering the remedies is an extremely important factor. I would consider my skills have been much better in the last seven years than in the previous twenty years of practice. Arion 3x3 (talk) 16:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you understand that Misplaced Pages is not here to satisfy the function you have in mind for it?--Filll (talk) 17:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I was asking for scientific flaws of the Lancet analysis. I am still yet to see any. Honestly, I don't care about any non-scientific complaints because all non-scientific complaints tend to boil down to "homeopathy is not testable and no one should try testing it, unless of course the results support homeopathy's effectiveness, in which case the results are excellent". Excluding the majority of trials in a meta-analysis is acceptable in scientific terms provided the trials you keep are of higher scientifc quality than those you exclude. "There is the well-known principle (among homeopaths)", by well known do you mean a principle for which no evidence exists but a lot of people this is true? "The skill and experience of the one administering the remedies is an extremely important factor." - do you have any evidence that the experience of the homoepathy has a significant effect on results or that the homoepaths in the trials were not experienced.

The main complaint I see is "treatment tends to be individualised" which is supposedly not refelcted in the trials. I have read several trials that have shown negative results where the treatment was individualised. In both groups they sent people to homeopaths, let homeopaths do their thing, let the homeopaths presribe whatever they want and then for the placebo group swapped this substance at the lab for another with identical colour and taste. Both groups showed a placebo effect/regression to the mean but there was no signficant difference between them. These trials, however, are more likely to show positive results for the simple fact that they are way harder to control. You have to come up with a suitable placebo for everything the homeopaths prescribe. The evidence also standards against the idea that the homeopaths individualise anything. Many of these studies have found that most homeopaths prescribe the same thing for the same problem, with maybe three different remedies being presribed. For all that talk about individualisation, homeopaths don't seem to individualise much.

"The skill and experience of the one administering the remedies is an extremely important factor. I would consider my skills have been much better in the last seven years than in the previous twenty years of practice" A little off topic but maybe you shold read about cognitive dissonance. It's a much more scientific and parsimonious explanation for this "improved skill" which you have observed. Btw cognitive biases like cognitive dissonance are the very reason that a therapists "clinical observations" receive zero consideration when more reliable evidence is available. Therfore, I will be standing by my assertion that homeopaths never actually improve their skill at healing till someone proves me wrongJamesStewart7 (talk) 03:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

An encyclopedia article on homeopathy or any other subject should not be turned into a battleground of special interests seeking to have their own biased version prevail. As I have said before, this article must not be either a pro or anti homeopathy article, but a neutrally presented exposition of the subject, with opposing and supporting data presented in their own respective sections. It is also not the role of any editor here to PASS JUDGMENT on which research data passes their personal litmus test to qualify for inclusion in this article. Arion 3x3 (talk) 17:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you do not understand the principles and policy of WP. WP:NPOV states that articles will be written with views in the proportion of their prominence. And therefore, as it was originally written at 60% pro-homeopathy, was more than fair.

But pro-homeopathy warriors were obviously unhappy with 60% and wanted 80% or 99% or something, and have been throwing up walls of nonsense text, and bringing up the same topics 50 or 100 times over and over after they were already dismissed. This must stop and I think we have to do something different here. The fact that Beneviste has been removed from the article now tells me we have to do something quite different. Perhaps pro-homeopathy editors should be blocked with much greater frequency. Perhaps the article should be locked for long periods. Perhaps pro-homeopathy editors should be dealt with far more harshly and with less equanimity, since they are clearly not interested in writing an encyclopedia according to the policies of Misplaced Pages and seem unable or unwilling to learn. I suspect this article and its pages are infected with hordes of sock puppets, meat puppets, and assorted trolls and has been for months. Perhaps because homeopaths view this as a way to promote their professions and make money. This makes me sick, but this must stop.--Filll (talk) 17:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Could you stop this silliness of adding up "pro" and "contra" lines? Misplaced Pages policy and editorial common sense say the whole article should be written from a neutral point of view with "great detail" for the subject of the article and "appropriate reference" for the majority view. --Art Carlson (talk) 20:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

You mean NPOV material like objective, scientific evidence? Evidence which states that homeopathy is no better than a placebo in numerous meta-analyses? I concur. The article should include much of this material. It should also phrase claims that homeopathy works in the "Homeopaths state ..." format. Maybe I should also point out that wikipedia is not a democracy, hence scientific evidence should rightly trump majority view. See Misplaced Pages:ConsensusJamesStewart7 (talk) 03:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The majority view is that homeopathy is the purest crap, the biggest load of hooey on the planet and a vile cruel ugly dangerous hoax perpetuated by cranks, charlatans, crooks, and quacks. That is the majority view. By the rules of WP:NPOV, about 99% of the article should include material that supports this viewpoint. However, we were happy with 40% or so and allowed it to go through to GA. Now I see that POV warriors were not happy with their 60% and have attacked it and continue to attack it. Ok, so be it. The situation is clear and steps will have to be taken.--Filll (talk) 20:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyone claiming that homeopathy isn't open to scientific investigation (as has been stated in the above discussion) is woefully misinformed about the scientific method, or merely showing their bias. This article should put forward a definition of homeopathy, it's history and principles, etc, but it should also include the scientific and philosophical criticisms of the practice. Unfortunately for people pushing a homeopathic POV, the fact is that the scientific criticism is so damning it rather overshadows everything else on the page. However, in order to be a neutral article it needs to be there. We can't tone down the criticisms just to make it 50/50 or not hurt people's feelings. Merry Christmas all! 86.146.119.116 (talk) 21:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's OR, Filll. There is no reliable source calling homeopathy "pure crap", "load of hooey", or "vile cruel ugly". More important, you are wrong in claiming that NPOV anywhere says that the lines of an article specifically devoted to a minority view should be divvied up into pro and con. The policy on undue weight says "on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint". --Art Carlson (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Since we're citing wikipedia policy, I thought I'd pick out this quote from the same page.

"Giving "equal validity"

I find the optimism about science vs. pseudoscience to be baseless. History has shown that pseudoscience can beat out facts, as those who rely on pseudoscience use lies, slander, innuendo and numerical majorities of followers to force their views on anyone they can. If this project gives equal validity to those who literally claim that the Earth is flat, or those who claim that the Holocaust never occurred, the result is that it will (inadvertently) legitimize and help promote that which only can be termed evil."

Please be clear on one thing: the Misplaced Pages neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views.

According to the evidence, homeopathy is the flat earth of medicine. The article has rightly treated it as such. Misplaced Pages policy does not state that if more people are pro-homeopathy the article should be more pro homeopathy. It suggests an article about homeopathy should talk about homeopathy. The article does that. Scientific evidence dictates how pro/con-homeopathy the article should be. JamesStewart7 (talk) 04:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reason you didn't finish the quote?

It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth.

I support NPOV policy 100%. It's Fill's introduction of bean counting that violates it. --Art Carlson (talk) 08:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Because I don't believe the rest of the quote changes the fundamental meaning. The pseudoscientific theory in this case is homeopathy. The concepts of homeopathy have been described and so have the scientific arguments against it. If you want to put another counter from homeopathy in WP:NPOV policy would suggest that we should then point out that homeopaths are basically arguing that homeopathy should not be testable and all untestable treatments are regarded as ineffective anyway (can't prove a negative, etc etc). JamesStewart7 (talk) 01:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Art, you seem to be going out of your way to avoid understanding. I have more than 6 times as many edits as you do, so I think I know a bit more about Misplaced Pages and its policies than you do. So do not presume to lecture me about it and think you can fool me.

Let's use our heads here, shall we?

1. Isn't homeopathy part of medicine? At least alternative and complementary medicine? I would say that it is.
2. Given that homeopathy is part of medicine, what is the majority view in medicine? I would say that it is very clearly that of allopathic medicine. Homeopathic medicine is a teeny tiny minority view and approach by any measure; money, prestige, size, etc.
3. What does WP:NPOV state? It states that the article should be written with the views in proportion to their prominence. Clearly, allopathic medicine is the majority view in this case, and the article should be written with this in mind.

Now that is pretty simple logic. If you dispute any of those, please provide peer-reviewed WP:RS sources backing up your position and claims. If you can convince me or any of the other more neutral editors that somehow homeopathy is more prominent than it appears to be, or that the allopathic view is different, then we might change our minds. Otherwise, we won't. Fair?

The crude estimates of "pro" and "con" that we went through before were because of whining of homeopaths that complained that how unfair it was to have an article that was only 60% pro-homeopathy. That is more than fair. And the whining and complaining appeared to be just pure BS. Nonsense. Ridiculous. It was not 50-50. It was more than half pro-homeopathy. And it is now headed well into the toilet, being further and further unbalanced, and more and more positive for homeopathy, and all dissent and evidence to the contrary deleted.

And the current march towards squelching all dissent and all science and all input from reason and rationality and statistics to promote the wonders of this fantastic cure known as homeopathy has to stop. This is not a commercial advertising venue. If you want to advertise homeopathy, buy a website. We will not be doing it here on Misplaced Pages.--Filll (talk) 22:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

We agree on points 1 and 2. (Although I think you underestimate the number of supporters of homeopathy, especially if you look at countries like Germany and India.) Point 3 continues to misquote policy. Are you "going out of your way" to avoid addressing the difference between "articles that compare views" and "pages specifically devoted to minority views"? If I recall correctly, you are right that it was homeopathy apologists that introduced the silly idea of counting lines of pro and contra. Lately it has been only you pushing the idea. I don't know that we really disagree with each other on any particular edit. But I am afraid if we don't clear this up now, you will later try to justify a bad edit by counting lines. If we can agree to apply NPOV policy as it stands, then we can quit this discussion and go back to improving the article. --Art Carlson (talk) 08:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Filll, while you are of course correct in your points, there is one area where I would take exception. You stated: Given that homeopathy is part of medicine, what is the majority view in medicine? I would say that it is very clearly that of allopathic medicine. Homeopathic medicine is a teeny tiny minority view and approach by any measure; money, prestige, size, etc. and that is a true statement, but it is not the point. The article is about homeopathy, pure and simple, not about "homeopathy and how it is seen within mainstream allopathic medicine" - no, that topic is a subsection of the topic "homeopathy", and as such, the article needs to reflect that better. Would you disagree? Well, of course you would :) but is the point I make amiss? docboat (talk) 02:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Well let's consider the alternate universe where what you propose are the principles and policies under which Misplaced Pages operates. In that universe, an article on Holocaust denial, or even on the Holocaust itself, might not mention all the existing historical and scholarly evidence that the Holocaust occurred. An article on the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory or even on the 9/11 Terrorist Attack might only discuss how this attack was an inside job, and never mention the evidence against this. An article on the Moon Landing Hoax or even the Moon Landing might only have material from conspiracy theorists, and contain no information whatsoever from regular news media or scientists. An article on Cold Fusion might include no discussion of the failures of any other laboratories to reproduce the results of Pons and Fleishman. And on and on... The problem is, although eventually we might have good evidence for homeopathic efficacy, we do not have it now. And so, to bury any of the contrary evidence that homeopathy does not work or has no reason to work and has never been unequivocally shown to work in scientific tests does our readers a disservice. It turns this article from a rational objective document, to an instrument for the promotion of homepathy and to deceive our readers. This is not the proper and appropriate policy of any encyclopedia, and in particular, Misplaced Pages with its special policies. And to deny these, in the face of dozens if not hundreds of patient explanations and re-explanations, is to court negative consequences.--Filll (talk) 02:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Now that is not what I said, and you know it! What I said was that a subsection of the topic should be devoted to the "how homeopathy is seen by the allopathic world" or some such approach. Not, under any circumstances to hide information, but to properly represent the topic. As for your example using Holocaust denial - not having looked at it (yet) but I strongly suggest that the start of the topic is given over to what the deniers claim, which is then followed by what the facts show. I will take a look and see if I should muddy the waters there. docboat (talk) 03:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's also remember that there is no such thing as "allopathic medicine"--that's a term for "real, scientific medicine" used by homeopaths, chiropractors, crystal-healers, and other charlatans, designed to equate the entirety of actual medicine with "just another opinion." Anyone who uses the term is crusading for an incorrect magical viewpoint and cannot be trusted to make good-faith or NPOV edits. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 03:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the term is used by conventional medicine. Anthon01 (talk) 06:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Randy, real scientific medicine exists in your imagination. It is well known that much of our current medical world is based on experiential practices, and we reckon - that is to say, we doctors of the world - understand that only about 30% of what we do is actually evidence-based. Surprising I know - it certainly surprised me when I was taught that - but it seems to be so. Now you glibly suggest that chiropracters are charlatans, and that reflects a profound ignorance and prejudice, but that is OK - don't go to them. We know, from evidence based medicine, that if you use conventional medicine to treat whiplash injury (warmth and rest) you have 6 weeks of pain, but if you use chiropractic methods (ice and mobilisation) you get 3 weeks of pain. Where, I ask you, is the charlatan in that scenario? So your biased opinions would disqualify you from being able to make NPOV edits? I ask, only because you made the original claim, and I assume you accept the consequences of your own logic being used. docboat (talk) 03:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

People keep tossing quotes like this around "we doctors of the world - understand that only about 30% of what we do is actually evidence-based." and it's always a different number each time. Please show me a reliable source that states this so I can avoid all these treatments that are not based in evidence like the plague. Also please note, well controlled observational studies are still evidence. They also happen to be the best evidence you can provide for something like a surgery without violating ethical standards. It would not, however, be acceptable to place a drug into common use based on the results of observational studies as it is trivial to perform a double blind, randomized controlled trial. It would also not be acceptable to promote a surgery that is not supported by the results of at least observational studies. It would also not be acceptbale to use the results of an observational trial without making an adjustment for the overt bias. I believe this is actually the current practice in modern medicine. There is a very strong push to evidence based medicine. Quotes like "only 30% of conventional medicine is evidence based" will never be allowed in any article of alternative medicine because they are not accurate and they are not relevant. The only reason anyone would want this quote included is to lower the bar for what is considered acceptable. The rule is always use the best evidence available and double-blind RCT have been conducted on homeopathy thus that evidence should be used. PS you can't support the efficacy of chiropracty or any other medicine with made up numbers. JamesStewart7 (talk)

I'm interested in finding out if dubious and unproven "I'M A DOCTOR" claims (by someone whose entire editing career consists of bashing doctors) are in violation of any Misplaced Pages policies. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 04:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

In concordance with WP:AGF lets just assume he is a doctor until we see reliable evidence to the contrary. However, lets also consider that it is inappropriate to cite yourself, Misplaced Pages:No original research#Citing oneself. Really, it doesn't matter if he's a doctor or not because the opinion of any medical "expert" is worthless if their opinion is not supported by evidence. JamesStewart7 (talk) 04:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Quite so James. Evidence is key. docboat (talk) 10:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thinking about evidence, this link is interesting. It suggests the need for an open mind and points to some conclusions on minor efficacy. I had not come across it before. Comments? docboat (talk) 04:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

--Radames1 (talk) 06:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism sections

Anyone who wants a "criticism section" is not understanding the policies of Misplaced Pages. All this willfull fighting and arguing about the clear principles and policies of Misplaced Pages really is disappointing. Learn about Misplaced Pages before you start spilling nonsense on these talk pages. A criticism section violates WP:LEAD, WP:NPOV and several other WP policies. Template:Criticism-section indicates that criticism sections are frowned upon, according to the principles of Misplaced Pages. This even is reflected in statements of Jimbo. So if you want that to change the principles under which Misplaced Pages operates, you should go to one of the policy pages and endeavor to change the policy there. This is not the place to do it if that is your goal. You are on the wrong page if that is the case.--Filll (talk) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

There should definitely be a section on scientific views on homeopathy, and these are going to be critical. They should no be removed just because they are critical, but should go in the article in appropriate places. The problem with homeopathic responses to these criticisms is that they usually do not address the points or clam (incorrectly) that homeopathy cannot be investigated by science. If we have good refs to good counter-criticisms, then please post them here for us to look at, and let's get back to improving the article (which was pretty good right now) 86.146.119.116 (talk) 11:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

After reading through many homeopathic websites I have noticed that homeopaths go to great lengths to avoid stating that homeopathy cannot be investigated by science. Take this quote for example "Many previous studies have demonstrated that homeopathy has an effect over and above placebo....It has been established beyond doubt and accepted by many researchers, that the placebo-controlled randomised controlled trial is not a fitting research tool with which to test homeopathy." --a spokeswoman from the Society of Homeopaths" This sentence actually suggests that there is some fitting research tool for homeopathy. She just doesn't say what it is. This makes the claims of homeopaths difficult to reference and difficult to counter. It is also not fitting to state the criticism as stated in the quote above. It is a grossly misleading statment as the women never states how homeopathy can be investigated despite the implication. Someone needs to either find a homeopathy quote where a homeopathic organisation states simply that homeopathy is not open to scientific investigation or find where a homeopathic organisation states what is a suitable research tool.JamesStewart7 (talk) 01:32, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I want to add my opinion. I think that in an article about homeopathy, basic principles of homeopathy should be included and explained analytically. Not doing so is a violation of neutral point of view. (NPOV) Homeopathic doctors or supporter 's views of meta - analyses and criticisms should be included - if the sources are notable and serious. Otherwise the article will not be fair and objective.

I did not know this study about water memory. I have to look at it. But if it is published in a notable source and the article refers to the memory of water, it should be included. If there is criticism for this study it should be included it to.

I thought that critics of homeopathy want to include its views in order to expose them using scientific arguments. If homeopath' s arguments and counter criticism have no scientific basis, homeopathy will debunk itself. I suppose that will be an easy task for critics of Homeopathy. More later.--Radames1 (talk) 05:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

As I noted above, someone like Radames1 shows up, and he might be new, or might not be, but it is like starting over at zero. He believes the article is unfair to homeopaths and that there is all kinds of magical support for it, and has not read or refuses to read the pages of material that have been dredged up on this page to demonstrate that homeopathy is complete horse manure.--Filll (talk) 16:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way Radames1, if you look a little deeper, that paper and a few others came out about water memory. This was then checked carefully by others and even the authors of that paper. No one could confirm it in more careful experiments. And everyone involved had their career destroyed, more or less because they had involved themselves with what is essentially a fraud.--Filll (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

In reply to this often made ridicule, I have a source that responds thus:

—Whig (talk) 04:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

All very well and good. Except two problems (1) water memory has never been shown to exist. NEVER. There is no evidence. Sorry. (2) Its existence would violate about 200 years of physics and chemistry, that would have to be discarded or severely modified.

In fact, if you showed water memory existed, you would win the Nobel Prize. Hands down. No question. And then, we have the deeper question. What about sugar memory?--Filll (talk) 04:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

They are inappropriate analogies in either case. For you see, ice doesn't have a memory of being water at one stage, does it not? Also, there is no "memory of iron" it is iron oxide, which is a different entity than iron, otherwise you would be needing to discuss the "memory of hydrogen" - because water is only what you get when you burn hydrogen. And why isn't there a discussion on how hydrogen remembers a time when it was floating thru space? Shot info (talk) 06:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The quote from Drs. Bellavite and Signorini is a good reminder that thermodynamics applies to water, though most people don't need this reminder. Their analogy is not very good with regards to homeopathic principles, however, and fails to convince me at all. If this requires explanation, I'll gladly spell it out. Also, for what it's worth, I fail to see how this long quotation in any way responds to Filll's initial point. Antelan 06:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Thermodynamics applies to water, and as such water has a thermodynamic history as does all matter since nothing is in perfect equilibrium with everything. Calling it water memory is just a metaphor, this is Bellavite and Signorini's point here. This is observable in Bénard cells as well which demonstrate hysteresis. Whether and how such a thermodynamic history (to use this model) has a biophysical effect is a separate question which is further addressed in their book and by a number of physicists. Thermodynamics poses an interesting problem in that dilution and shaking cannot cause a solute to vanish no matter how far it is carried out. I would in any case ask whether selected quotations from this book ought to be considered as a source for the article as well. The purpose of our conversation is not to convince you at all, nor for any of us to be convinced of the correctness of the arguments of those we may presently disagree with, but to document the debate for our readers so they can make up their own minds. —Whig (talk) 09:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Pure garbage. There is no such thing as "thermodynamic history" that can magically separate the entropy of mixing from dilution. While it is fine to present legitimate arguments, when unreliable sources try to talk about science as Whig is doing above and basically state falsities, there is no obligation for us to publish such drivel in the article space. ScienceApologist (talk) 09:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a history, as a mathematical necessity. The question is: does it quickly become irrelevant as entropy takes over, or does something structural remain. Mathematically, this is well possible, but that doesn't imply that it really happens. Has science advanced far enough to draw conclusions? Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

No, there is no such thing as "thermodynamic history" that somehow magically allows homeopathy to work. And yes, science has advanced far enough to draw conclusions. See statistical mechanics for how such questions are answered. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The probability theory is there, yes, I've aided in its development myself. But that's just a tool, and only one of the tools that are needed, too. You cannot draw conclusions from a tool. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you are having a problem reading/writing English or if you just don't understand the point that the idea of a "thermodynamic history" as outlined by Whig and the homeopathic fanatics is flatly contradicted by theory. Saying you "cannot draw conclusions from a tool" is a strawman argument that is, ironically, incorrect. Measuring tools are used to draw conclusions from all the time. I suggest you stick to articles more in your fields of expertise as your current advocacy of pseudoscientific nonsense really doesn't help matters here. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that you try and acquaint yourself with the difference between 'from' and 'with' and stop behaving like a moron. Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

How droll! Completely avoided the point, insulted my dialect, and gave me a personal attack. I can see you're going to be a joy to have around. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It is quite obvious that you are not interested in improving the article so nothing is lost if you simply stay away. We're done talking. Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you're a peach! ScienceApologist (talk) 20:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC) This user is on my ignore list since 20071227. Guido den Broeder (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Cool! Can I go on Guido den Broeder's ignore list too - it sounds like the place where cool people hang out. I'm impressed by how mature everyone is being, and that no one is trying to pull it down to name calling. 90.197.168.195 (talk)

Guido den Broeder you really have two choices. Collaborate with everyone who contributes to this article, including those who disagree with you, however, distasteful you may find them or do not contribute at all. No one takes well to the whole user is on my ignore list thing either including admins "but added is repeated disruption of talk page dialogue with "This user is on my ignore list..." Users blocked. so please do not do it. Now although ScienceApologist phrased his concerns in a rather abrasive way (btw ScienceApologist did you have to do it like that?) he did make a legitimate scientific complaint ie thermodynamic history is completely made up and cannot be used in support of anything. Now regardless of what you think of ScienceApologist, you are required to supply the wikipedia community with reliable supporting evidence of thermodynamic history before it can be considered for inclusion in the article. Whig you also need to supply evidence to support your ideas. All scientific claims need to be supported by evidence. There is really little point in posting any claim here that is not supported by evidence as it will not be included by the article except perhaps in as opinion only in another section. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not required to do anything of the kind, nor does anyone else, for that would be a violation of WP:OR. Guido den Broeder (talk) 08:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you admit that "thermodynamic history" should not be included as it violates WP policies. Perhaps you can move on to being constructive now? 90.197.168.195 (talk) 11:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that Carlson's suggestion is the most balanced: "The policy on undue weight says "on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint". @Filll: what you say or what I could say about the memory of water do not count. Only what notable sources state count about the memory of water. So Rey study published in the reputable Physica A should be included.If you have any notable sources which criticize it please let us know ( Try to be more friendly next time - thanks )--Radames1 (talk) 06:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Rey article concerns itself with emission spectra. I just read the brief article in its entirety. It's far too many degrees removed from Homeopathy to be relevant. For what it's worth, I've just removed less outlandish claims from a Wiki cancer article about conventional medical research that hinted at some effect of ginger on cancer. Misplaced Pages is not the place for synthesis. Antelan 07:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It is relevant because "water memory" is a key concept in homeopathy. The emissions spectra reflect the 'hydrogen bond' structure of water.

My point was that I'm not sure how this would feature into the article. It seems the only way to use this would involve WP:SYN. Antelan 11:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If the Rey article gets in then the nature article debunking the Beneviste article should be in there too "J. Maddox; J. Randi, W. W. Stewart (28 July 1988). ""High-dilution" experiments a delusion". Nature 334: 287-290" along with a note of cautioning that the Rey results cannot really be trusted as the study was not blinded.JamesStewart7 (talk) 12:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The Rey article shouldn't get in, and I still think the Nature article should be featured. Antelan 20:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

This is pure nonsense. I am shocked the Beneviste affair was edited out of the article. I will continue to preach the value of science and reason, no matter what. And those of you who oppose science and reason will have to deal with the consenquences. There is no place for you here on Misplaced Pages.--Filll (talk) 15:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey Filll settle down, have a glass or two of Laphraoig or (believe me!) Old Pultney - excellent whisky. Science told us in the 1950's that if you have a heart problem, exercise should stop. Now we know that that piece of scientific advice killed people. Things change. But a curious mind, an open mind, a mind fixed - yes on evidence and reason - on exploring the unexplored, these attitudes lead to expanded knowledge. What we "know" now, is tomorrows nonsense. So have a wonderful day, and a bountiful NEw Year, and may you be blessed in all you do. Peace! docboat (talk) 02:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Firstly please do not use the term "open mind" ever again. I have never heard the term open mind being used in a context where someone was not telling me or someone else to accept a dubious piece of information eg homeopathy works without question. Secondly Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_crystal_ball. None of you have a crystal ball either so I do not want to hear anyone suggest that water memory will one day be found. The homeopathy article must be written based on todays evidence. Today's evidence states that Beneviste was wrong and water memory does not exist. Although Filll, I have to agree with docboat when he says calm down a bit. The article in its current state is still very damning of the concept of water memory.JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The Beneviste affair, written from a NPOV, should be in the article as it is a significant event in the history of science and homeopathy. Anthon01 (talk) 03:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody cue me in what this is about? The article currently contains information on Benveniste that hasn't been substantially changed in months! Filll, just what are you shocked about? All I can imagine is that you searched for "Beneviste" and found nothing because that's not his name. --Art Carlson (talk) 19:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No place for people who oppose science and reason on Misplaced Pages? But Misplaced Pages isn't about facts, it's about who can make up the most rules to benefit their side and who has the most time during the day to sit on a talk page screaming about their magical beliefs. When you start a project dedicated to proving that autistic teenage anime fans know more about any given topic than professors in the field, of course you're going to attract mostly crazy people who believe mostly crazy things. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 20:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Please lighten up, Filll, the Benveniste stuff went months ago after a disagreement I think instigated by one of your science buddies so it has nothing to do with so-called 'pro-homeopaths' as you have implied. It's months back; I suggested it should go back and I think Adam said no. So that was that; check the records and it is all there. There was disagrreement and it just never got put back in. It's no bigdeal; just put it back. Nobody is trying to chuck science or crit out of the article, please be a bit more reasonable. The atmosphere here has got very unpleasant of late. merry Xmas! Peter morrell 16:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Constructive ideas

Instead of squabbling and bickering, and excessive use of uncivil words, might I suggest that editors return to the main point? and begin to offer new positive suggestions on how the article might be improved? if we have some new versions of sentences we can begin to comment and vote on them. Surely this would be time better spent than on arguments and venting hot air? thank you Peter morrell 09:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The article can be improved by writing thoroughly about facts (aka science, aka homeopathy being a fraud) and completely disregarding incorrect views (homeopathy being true or plausible) as well as the charlatans and zealots who insist on wasting any time or space on lies. If you do not wish to see the article improve but instead want to try to argue with irrational people, then the article will inevitably not be improved. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 12:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it, we are currently waiting on homeopathy proponents to suggest another change. I think some people here (those who believe that homeopathy is ineffective) are relatively satisfied with the POV of the current article although there is some mention that the Nature controversy about water memory should be included. I mention this because I think that these people are unlikely to propose any substantial. Some other peopele, however, have been relatively vocal about POV concerns with the article eg Arion 3x3, Art Carlson, Guido den broeder. Could some of these people please comment and their feelings about this phrasing, proposed by Naturezak.

The authors of some meta-analyses report positive results from the use of homeopathy, but critics maintain that many of these studies are methodologically flawed. A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet, of clinical trials comparing homeopathic remedies to conventional treatment, indicates that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.

Both Peter Morell and I felt that a change similar to this would be appropriate ("authors of some meta-analyses" is a bit weasel wordy but we can fix that) but this phrasing needs comments from others. Could any of the aforementioned people (or anyone else who wishes to) please point to specific passages of the article that they think are POV so that we may discuss them (please quote). Note, this is what we have heard so far: Some people are unhappy with the Lancet meta-analysis finding that homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. We don't need to hear this again, however, we do need to hear about any specific problems with the scientific methodology of the Lancet meta-anlaysis. The discussion about the non-scientific complaints did not really go anywhere. However, it may be useful to see any RS where a homeopath states that homeopathy should not be tested by science in general. The Rey study was an interesting proposition but that discussion has devolved into ad hominen attacks. I think it is important for homeopaths to understand that many here are going to take an "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" stance and argue against any claims of water memory that have not been replicated in double blind trials. However, I do Anthon01 for providing an actual source for his water memory claim. JamesStewart7 (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me clarify that I am neither an advocate for, nor an advocate against homeopathy. As far as I know, there simply is not enough evidence to support any conclusions with regard to the validity of the theory or with regard to the merits of the treatment. At the moment, some sections are argumentative and try to convince the reader that the whole idea is nonsense. There is no scientific basis for such a claim, just as the opposite cannot be claimed. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok I don't really want to get into a practice of classifying people into supporters or opponents but apparently I did not structure my wording well enough to avoid that implication. I was just trying to elicit an opinion from all the people I mentioned in the hope that they may offer a differing viewpoint and I couldn't think of a better way to word it. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

JS7: I appreciate you thanks, but would like to clarify that although I did bring it up on this talk page, it is not my "water memory claim." It is a significant part of the homeopathy discussion and I believe merits inclusion in the article considering the highly regarded RS. It is a topic I find interesting, am open-minded about and yet unconvinced. Anthon01 (talk) 07:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The abstract of the article in The Lancet says: "Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions." I think that this may well be an accurate meta-result. Note, especially, that the outcome does not imply that homeopathy has no merit, nor that there is no evidence for any effects. The abstract continues with: "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." While true, this is a suggestive statement, because the finding is also consistent with the notion that homeopathy has a small, but genuine effect. There is no way to tell which of the two is the case. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone done a study of possible biases in the Lancet article? Friarslantern (talk) 23:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

They councluded that they found weak evidence for any effect. They did not say that they found reliable evidence for a small effect. Small effects should still demonstrate statistically significant differences on large trials. If the effect is so small that the trial has to become ridiculously large for the effect to become significant then it is pretty safe to say the effect has no practical implications and could just as easily be due to error. I fail to see any evidence for even a small effect in the Lancet results and the authors seem to agree "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." There are even tools to determine what is the minimum effect size that will be found significant if it exists: statistical power so if you want to establish that there could have been a small effect at least find a RS that did a power analysis on the Lancet data. Or if you want to do one for you own knowledge only, do one yourself (I assure you, you'll find the minimum effect size is quite small) JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Placebo effect = no effect, so since the study showed an improvement consistent with the placebo effect, then the placebo effect is the probable cause. Also notice that the effect was small - in the majority of cases it didn't help. Homeopathy is therefore shown to be ineffective in this study, and does not give the improvements claimed by homeopaths. Your trying to spin this study into some kind of support for homeopathy, when it is at least indifferent (saying homeopathy is as good as a sugar pill), shows that despite your claims you are not as unbiased as you may think you are. The mainstream scientific view of homeopathy is that homeopathy has no effect, and no mechanism by which an effect can be caused. There have been many good studies, and it now rests with homeopaths to prove their statements true. Homeopathy is a multi-billion pound industry, so there is plenty of money to spend on producing good, doubled-blinded, individualised, etc, studies. The fact that Borion (sp?) et al do not do this speaks volumes for their confidence in the efficacy of their treatments. I'm sure the authors of the study are pleased that you feel it is accurate, but your interpretation of their results leaves a lot to be desired. The current state of homeopathy is that there is a lot of good evidence suggesting that it has no effect (beyond placebo), no plausible notion of how it could have an effect, and only very poor evidence that it has any effect. Why are you trying to imply that there is some kind of evenly matched science on each side, or that there still remains a lot of doubt in the scientific community? This is simply not the case. The article as it is now is mostly good, with a discussion of homeopathy as homeopaths see it, and then a scholarly discussion of the scientific view. It could do with improvements, but is generally good as it is. If anything, the scientific view should be made more prominent 90.197.168.195 (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Logic does not work that way. The outcome is consistent with many things. Without further evidence, picking one of them as the truth is pov. Now, please discuss the topic, not the users. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The authors concluded that the current evidence is insufficient to conclude the existance of any effect. Note the default position in any scientific inquiry is the null hypothesis (all inferential statistics operate by rejecting the null hypothesis if there is an effect). The article even states this "When used, the null hypothesis is presumed true until statistical evidence in the form of a hypothesis test indicates otherwise". So, scientifically speaking, homeopathy is assumed to be ineffective until there is sufficient evidence to conclude otherwise. The researchers concluded that there was not sufficient evidence so the null hypothesis was accepted. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the null hypothesis is that there is no difference within an experiment. That is not quite the same. One can do a larger experiment. Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

One can always do a bigger experiment. Just how big would the experiment have to be before you'd accept that there is no homeopathc effect? Your understanding of the scientific method is floored I'm afraid. The comments below still apply too. Also, putting comments halfway through a long thread is very confusing. Please reply at the bottom or make it clear that you are replying out of turn 86.146.119.116 (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

In principle, a scientist never 'accepts' that something does or doesn't exist based on statistics alone. That said, expanding the meta-experiment as published in the Lancet would, if the measurement of 0,88 remained the same, only provide evidence that supports the notion of an effect. The value would have to increase, i.e. the measured effect in new studies would have to be weaker than in the published review, to make it otherwise. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah good old cherry picking again. Most of what I wrote was a discussion of the issue. Where is the hole in the "logic" of what I wrote? I am interested to why you think that there is some kind of parity between the evidence for an against homeopathy? I think we could work together if you answer these two questions clearly and concisely. If I am wrong about the second please explain what your view is. Thanks 90.197.168.195 (talk) 16:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I broadly agree with what James says; however, where it says in the above passage "...positive results from the use of homeopathy," we could then discuss WHAT refs to add there. A few days back someone posted some examples of these so-called 'positive studies.' Well, if there is some level of agreement (as opposed to ad hominem attacks) then we can add 1 or 2 of those items at that specific point in that passage, as references, choosing them carefully as the BEST. Does this sound a reasonable idea? Then as also suggested, folks can pin-point any specific sentences they wish to change, hopefully accompanied with a suggestion of versions for voting on or some mechanism for making a decision. thanks Peter morrell 15:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It sounds reasonable but I think we are still at the "assessing the level of agreement" stage. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Stating that, according to the Lancet article, there is insufficient evidence to claim homeopathy to be effective would be OK with me. Any suggestion that we (therefore) know for certain that it is ineffective, would not. Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You realise that, in scientific terms, whenever there is insufficient evidence for something it it is assumed that that thing is not real ie if there is insufficient evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy, it is assumed that homeopathy is ineffective. The current article doesn't actually imply we know anything "for certain". It does not use the words "prove", "disprove" or "impossible". "The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible and directly opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge". Note the term implausible as opposed to impossible. So I can only assume you are objecting to statements like this (btw this whole process would go so much easier if people could quote passages they object to - then I wouldn't have to make these assumptions) "A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicine demonstrated that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo". Note the usage of the term "unlikely". The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects." Note the term "compatible". These statements are perfectly acceptable as the null hypothesis is always assumed in the absence of evidence. So can we please stop the strawman arguments and actually refer to what the current article says. The article uses scientific terminology throughout (suggested, compatible, statistically significant effect, no evidence) so it is completely unfounded to suggest that anyone is suggesting that anything can be known "for certain". It should be noted, however, that the pragmatic position that nothing can be known for certain does not forbid reasonable conclusions like this "homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo". JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, at the moment we seem to have two suggestions. First, is the addition of 2 or 3 refs listed above of allegedly good studies (?), which have been interpreted by some as showing some effect of homeopathic intervention. Those refs, when their selection is agreed, could simply be added as cites to the wording-unchanged sentence already identified about 'positive studies.' Second, we have to put in some mention of water memory and the work of Benveniste. If there are more ideas of changes to be added, then please mention them. thanks Peter morrell 12:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Benveniste is already mentioned in the article. Anthon01 (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

We should refer to meta-analyses only as someone needs to seperate the reliable studies from the poorly conducted ones. It would be OR for any editor to perform this process themselves. Meta-analyses are almost always preferrable over original studies when they are available Misplaced Pages:Primary_sources#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources. Seeing as every meta-analysis (at least every meta-analysis I am aware of) on homeopathy is already included in the article I highly doubt that there is any study on the efficacy of homeopathic interventions to add. No one is going to agree on an original study to add because everyone is aware that people can just cherry-pick whatever studies reach conclusions they agree with, with complete disregard for the scienitific quality of the study. So I guess the only way consensus could possibly be reached is if the wikipedia community agreed on a selection criteria beforehand. Of course people like me are going to push for this selection criteria "large, double-blind, randomised controlled trials only" and it just so happens these were basically the selection criteria used in the Lancet analysis so I highly doubt any consensus will be reached here either. The only trials that have shown homeopathy is effective are small and/or of lower quality so undoubtably anyone who disagrees with the conclusion that homeopathy effects are placebo effects will want such trials included. Others will maintain that the results of such trial are completely unreliable and should not be included. Of course, it is never ending debates (and believe me, it will be never ending) like these that are the reason meta-analyses are preferred in the first place. The simple fact of the matter is, deciding what constintutes an "allegedly good study" is OR. The only reason wikipedians should allow original studies is that there is not always a recent enough meta-analysis. Shang et al., however, is a 2005 analysis. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea of water memory is essential to the theory, and should therefore be mentioned, with sources for research and arguments, but again without claiming proof or refutation. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There is no proof of long term water memory, and it is a thoroughly discredited idea. See the water memory page. Your claim to be unbiased is as strong as the homeopathic effect. You are right that it should be mentioned, but to leave out the criticism is a disgraceful suggestion 86.146.119.116 (talk) 14:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that water memory is essential to homeopathy and should be mentioned. We have an entire water memory page that is somewhat orphaned because water memory does not receive a mention in the main homeopathy article. However, I also agree that water memory is a thoroughly discredited idea. I think the main homeopathy article should offer a brief (perhpas only one or two sentence) discussion of water memory and link to the main water memory page. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

How have you determined that it is completely discredited? Anthon01 (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence that water has a memory in the femtoseconds, but that timescale is not relevant to homeopathy. Antelan 03:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

So provide the sources for this evidence. Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Constructive ideas - break

There are serious issues ahead which are unresolved because of a coflict both in theoretical assumptions and in observations between so-called scientists converging on this topic and those of practising homeopaths. People who use homeopathy will never accept crude statistical globalising of data using meta-analyses, not principally because they regard it is statistical sleight-of-hand (which they do), which predictably deletes the positive results from many studies (which it does), but primarily because homeopathy as an empirical medical practice, as opposed to a so-called mathematical problem on paper, individualises treatment for every case and acts according to its own principles of sickness cause and cure for each case without any regard for the pooling of data that is possible in allopathic studies. There simply is a gulf between the two methodologically and in terms of how it is practiced on the ground. You don't even have accepted disease labels in homeopathy, so how can you rig up a double blinded study? you treat each case as a separate entity with its own unique twists and turns of treatment as the discourse between patient and practitioner evolves. Nor can that be predicted in advance as a comparative study demands. No homeopath can give one remedy for a whole crowd of folks allegedly with the same 'disease' and expect anything other than a zero outcome no better than placebo. They must give different remedies to each and a differing pattern of sequential remedies according to the properties of each case. The two situations are entirely different. Therefore, double blinding and standardised procedures are not possible. Even patients with closely similar 'conditions' are not going to receive from a good homeopath the same remedies in the same doses or in the same sequence because of the unique differences in each case and in each family history. This is one issue that anyone who has seeen good homeopathy in practice is going to despair about how this can be satisfactorily converted into a sound statistical analysis acceptable to all sides on a totally neutral basis. How can it be done? The secondary issue about potentisation and water memory is a big side-issue, a damp squib; until you have proof that homeopathy works according to the principles it follows, then there is little point in even venting hot air about a possible mechanism. At the moment the issue is stalled at the first hurdle due to these methodological issues over good trials that satisfy all criteria. Lancet and other meta-analyses certainly do NOT meet these criteria and until good large studies that address these complex issues are tackled and resolved then no homeopath in the world will respect the alleged outcomes of such studies. I hope this clarifies some issues. thanks Peter morrell 09:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence to suggest that homeopaths actually individualize the treatments ie some form of evidence (not just what homeopaths say) that suggests that homeopaths actually offer different treatments depending on different variables? Do you have any evidence which indicates that homeopaths actually agree on what is the best "individualized" treatment for a particular patient? I completely and totally dispute this idea that homeopaths actually individualize anything. I think they collect a whole bunch of patient data and proceed to ignore it and base their decision on a stereotype or heuristic. Heuristics btw are pretty falliable, see for example, the availability heuristic . How could they possibly take every single variable into consideration and weight them all accordingly? Humans simply aren't capable of that level of statistical analysis necessary to do this. To say that homeopaths actually individualize treatments in the way they say they do goes against pretty much all the evidence on psychology. If you want to include a sentence such as "Homeopaths state that they individualize their treatments for the patient" (it has to be state because they don't really) then fine, but then in order to balance it we should review the evidence about "individualized treatments" specifically, the journal articles which suggest they give the same treatment for the same condition (I have read some, I'm sure I can find them if necessary). Then we can point out that even we can still construct a double blind, randomized placebo controlled trial while allowing for individulaisation by just swapping out the treatments at the lab. We can go in, let the homeopath talk to the patient, let them prescribe whatever they want and if they are in the placebo group we can swap out the treatment and just not tell the homeopath prescribing it. Otherwise we give them whatever they prescribed. After that we can point out that many of these individualised trials, like the aforementioned one, still demonstrate that homeopathy is ineffective. Then we can point out all the psychological evidence that suggests that homeopaths do not individualize their treatments in a rational, logical way. Turns out there is even a review in this area , "http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/acm.1998.4.371", which points out that "The evidence, however, is not convincing because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies". So hey, I guess it turns out that Shang et al. were right to exclude such studies as they are not very well conducted. Also the better conducted trials of individualised homeopathy also seem to be more likely to conclude that it is ineffective. "The pooled rate ratio of the methodologically best studies, however, was clearly smaller and not statistically significant" If you want to add that meta-analysis into the homeopathy article with those two quotes, then fine by me. Also Linde goes over various issues with these studies eg can't really be replicated which are the reason they are not preferred. This should also receive mention. JamesStewart7 (talk) 10:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting that you finally reveal the obfuscating fact of your disbelief. If you want your long-winded views to attract an atom of respect then I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say. That is evidence derived from observation in the real world (AKA science) and does not derive from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors. As I previously stated, the issues concerning trials are real issues. I would add that there is not a homeopath in this world who does not want to see proper trials set up to the satisfaction of everyone. They have nothing to lose from proving that homeopathy works in a neutral setting. And nor is it true as stated above that homeopathy is a billion dollar industry that avoids paying for trials. It is actually strapped for cash and most homeopaths make a very modest living! Compare the fortunes of Boiron (a French homeopathy pharmacy) and GlaxoSmithKlein, for example, or any other major drug company (who fund allopathic trials) and you will see that homeopathy as a 'financial outfit' on world terms has a fraction of the wealth of such drug companies who could fund good trials into homeopathy, or indeed any other alt. med system, but who very seem hesitant to do so. The views I have expressed are accurate and if you check the archives of this talk page you will see this type of argument has been circular for a VERY long time. Take it or leave it; there is not much more I can say to you. cheers Peter morrell 11:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

From your reply you would get the impression that the entire content of my comment was about some sort of financial incentive for practicing homeopathy. I made no mention of this. The issue at hand here is whether this reference should be included "Linde, K., Melchart, D. (1998) Randomized Controlled Trials of Individualized Homeopathy: A State-of-the-Art Review. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 4(4), 371-388" This should be the ideal article really. Your concern was that trials on homeopathy are not individualized. Here is an meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy trials. Is this supposed to be evidence "derive(d) from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors" If you have an objection to the article I would expect you to detail your objection to the scientific methodology used instead reverting to such ad hominem attacks (I guess the article is worthless becaues they are "theoretical objectors" right?), not to mention the ad hominem attack against me. I am aware that this type of argument has been circular for a long time and it basically boils down to two things. Homeopaths want to admit anecdotal evidence as support for homeopathy "I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say" Scientists and skeptics will never let let that happen. The long list of cognitive biases prevents anecdotal evidence from being anything other than worthless. There is very strong scientific evidence for the existance for some of them. Homeopaths also say that homeopathy is open to scientific investigation but often say randomized controlled trials are not a suitable research tool without saying why. In the case that they do give a reason, the reason is always (that I have seen anyway) individualization. When an analysis of individualized trials (which should meet all their criteria) is presented which finds the best studies find non-significant effects apparently that review isn't good enough because the researchers are biased or something. It is pretty hard to satisfy anyone who keeps moving the goal posts. So tell me, how could someone prove that homeopathy is ineffective, if homeopathy, in fact, does not work? How would they design the study so that it both achieves a reasonable level scientific rigor and satisfies the criteria set by homeopaths. If it is simply a matter of individualization, it has already been done. If no one can answer this question then we are forced to assume that homeopathy is not open to scientific investigation. Then the next step will be to look for a RS that states that this. JamesStewart7 (talk) 12:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a good deal that could be said to refute Peter Morrell. James Stewart has said some of it. The fact is that there are issues that Peter thinks are important which are not mentioned in the article, and there are many homeopaths that feel as he does. The article should make an effort to handle these issues. The POV that most negative studies are inadequate because the treatments were not individualized is prominent among homeopaths and should therefore be represented, naturally together with the scientific counter arguments. I endorse, for starters, two suggestions made by James:

• Include information from a reliable source on the real-world practice of homeopathy. I believe that James is right and I have read that homeopathy is seldom as "individualized" as much as is claimed, and that therefore the existing studies address the bulk of the practice of homeopathy. Of course we need a RS before we can add anything like this (or its opposite) to the article.
• The meta-analysis of individualzed trials by Linde and Melchart (1998) should be added to the article. The journal and authors are reputable. It is a secondary source, sufficiently recent to be up-to-date but also old enough to have drawn critical commentary. Highly relevant because claims like Peter's pop up continually. Ideal.

--Art Carlson (talk) 13:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If you keep modifying the article to address ad-hoc explanations from homeopaths for why homeopathy does not work, then the article will eventually be infinitely long and consist of nothing but bickering with a succession of new baseless rationalizations from homeopaths. They are not bound by facts or honesty and can come up with any number of "objections" from whole cloth. Just ignore them. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 14:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a legitimate question, which variants of homeopathy are tested by various experimental designs. Although it may be a minority, individualized homeopathy has a significant following. Just what are you objecting to? Do you think we should not mention various forms of homeopathy? Or should we not mention the meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy? If so, I haven't really understood your reasons for wanting to leave out one or the other of these points. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

You should mention whatever is appropriate for a factually correct and properly cited article on homeopathy. Explaining what homoeopathy actually is should be part of that. Taking the assertions of homoepaths at face value regarding what homeopathy is, or responding to every one of their made-up ideas about what's wrong with science, should not be. Only people who are willing to write true and relevant things should be working on any Misplaced Pages articles; people who believe in homeopathy are by definition not living the realm of the true or relevant, and their ideas and words have no place here. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Randy look at the general philosophy section. It is full of made up ideas. It would also be silly to cut such a section from the article. I think it is important to say what homeopaths believe before you start ripping into it. So how about we state that homeopaths believe that they individualize their treatments in the general philosophy or treatments section with all the other untestable or thoroughly refuted ideas and then place the Linde individualized homeopathy meta-analysis into the medical analysis section. I agree with your suggestion that we can't litter the article with ad-hoc explanations as to why homeopathy does not work but I don't think the concept of individualization is either ad hoc, or an explanation as to why homeopathy does not work. Individualization is a conecept similar to "treating the whole patient" (holistic health), which appears often throughout alternative medicine so I don't really doubt that many homeopaths consider it essential to their practice. Holistic health/Individualization is not about excusing why the treatment don't work, it is about taking a shot at conventional medicine as the somewhat POV article demonstrates "Traditional medical philosophy approached patient care as simply attempting to correct physical symptoms, using standardized methods such as the prescription of drugs or the undertaking of surgery, while the patient is only passively involved" (I'll be tagging the article as POV in just a moment). So maybe there is a POV reason to not include the individualization claim but "providing an excuse that the treatments do not work" is not it. Also despite what Peter morell suggests, individualized treatment is totally testable and there are scientific studies that demonstrate individualized homeopathy is just as ineffective as ordinary homeopathy so it's not like it's a claim that scientists cannot counter. JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I can suscribe to most of that, but ... The criteria for including things in Misplaced Pages is not truth but verifiability. The beliefs of editors have no place in the article and are otherwise irrelevant. Only the quality of their editing matters. So. Do you care to comment on my proposals, or should we drop this discussion? --Art Carlson (talk) 21:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability is a perfectly fine criterion. Here, it would mean finding the major publications or websites that support homeopathy and citing them to show "what homeopaths believe," then finding the responses from scientists that show why each belief is incorrect. It does not mean responding to things brought up by one anonymous person on the article's talk page; there is no way to verify that such objections are anything but one homeopath's series of back-and-forth responses to other Misplaced Pages editors, made up on the spot. Thus, such things are neither verifiable nor notable. My point is the same: the homeopathy fans on this talk page can and MUST be entirely ignored. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed on the verifiability point. I'm sure someone can find a reference that states homeopaths believe in individualization or holistic health or similar. A quick search turned up this "http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj6002198.pdf". It is published in the American Journal of Pharmaceutical education and it states that "Hahnemann formulated the principle that medications and doses must be highly individualized for each patient following an exhaustive and lengthy examination of each patient by a homeopathic physician Because each treatment is highly individualized based on the physical, mental, and emotional status of each patient, patients who would be given identical treatment with conventional medicine are often given different treatments under homeopathy". I haven't read the whole article carefully but their may be criticisms in there too as the article is clearly not trying to legitamize homeopathy "Homeopathy and legitimate medicine are two radically different branches of medicine." Looks like there are verifiable sources that state that individulization is part of homeopathy. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Anti-fan talk should be equally ignored, something that is often forgotten. It's not up to us to decide if scientists do in fact show something to be correct or incorrect. We can and need only mention that they, rather than we, come to certain conclusions. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

If the scientists say something is equivelant to a placebo (like they did in the Lancet article) then by your own arguments, we should state that the evidence suggets that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I know its' a difficult concept to grasp, but no, the article should not state that. The article should state that the authors say something (not this, by the way). Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Why shouldn't it state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo" with supporting refs. I've just reviewed your comments here Guido, and I've found your twisting of the scientific method offensive, and bending of wikipedia rule and policy to suit your bias and POV equally offensive. You are a troll and are adding nothing constructive to this talk page, and I'm asking you to please leave until after this current situation has been resolved. Your statements are not supported by science and your claims to be unbiased are laughable. I have been assuming good faith, but you have taken this too far now so please leave. I suggest you read some good books on the scientific method and how it progresses (written from the mainstream perspective), and come back in a month or two. I'd advise other people to stop feeding the troll 81.153.131.222 (talk) 12:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks are not welcome on Misplaced Pages. A warning has been placed on your talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hilarious! Some might say you aren't welcome for your twisting of the truth and wikipedia policy. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 18:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Why shouldn't the article state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo"? To begin with because it isn't strictly true. There are a lot of studies reporting better performance for homeopathy than for placebo. Even in the 21 trials of homeopathy that the Lancet meta-analysis described as "large trials of higher quality", "weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies" was found. We can report that the Lancet study concludes "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.", but this wording is considerably less decided than your paraphrase. --Art Carlson (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

(Rant) I did say if it's supported by the refs. It was an example. There are not any good studies showing that homeopathic concoctions have the medicinal effects claimed. That i the crux of the matter. Homeopathy doesn't work, has been repeatedly shown not to work, and there is no remotely plausible mechanism by which it could work. The article should describe homeopathy as homeopaths practice it, but it should spare no criticism to avoid hurting these misguided charlatans feeling. Homeopathy is discredited and homeopaths are (either intentionall or because they are self-deluded) dishonest. These facts are true and verifiable. Homeopaths clinging to non-specific, statistically insignificant, weak results and their promoting of pointless customer satisfaction surveys shows the extent of their delusions. This article is currently in a pretty good state, being more than fair to homeopathy while presenting scientifically valid criticisms. If anything this article is too postive towards homeopathy and its fundamentally unethical practitioners. Doctors should not lie to their patients, and unfortunately that's all homeopaths do. I realise this is a rant, and is not directed at you Art - you arr generally a force for good here, but I'm getting sick of the misleading statements made by homeopathic supporters. They have had a lot of practice at twisting the truth I guess 81.153.131.222 (talk) 13:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as this "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects" is exactly what the article states I'm not really seeing what the problem is here. "This finding" is roughly equivelant to "the study" anyway. If neither Guido den Broeder or 81.153.131.222 are suggesting we change this statement, I suggest we drop this discussion right here. My response to Guido was based on the inference that he/she was suggesting that was suggesting we change the article from the current form, which was based on the assumption that everyone here is trying to focus their comments on constructive ways in which the article may be changed. I think this is a fair inference as Guido states "The article should state that the authors..." whereas the current article uses "The study concluded". I have to voice my strong opposition against this wording. "The authors" makes it sound like it is just their opinion. It is not. No significant effects were found in the study. Not significant means that any variations between the treatment group and the placebo group may be accounted for by chance. This is the conclusion that every scientist makes when they find non-significant results. This is the only conclusion that can be made. You do not conclude the existance of a small effect on the basis of a non-significant result. You can only conclude there is a small effect when you actually find a small effect. If the authors were to say there may be a small effect they would just be speculating. So if they said this then it would be "the authors state...." because their statement would be some statement in the discussion that is not directly supported by their results. The results are non signficant, which means the null hypothesis is accepted and as the comparison group was a placebo control group the results are compatible with the notion that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. This is just a fact. It is indisputeable. Even if one day the study is found to be totally flawed and we find that that homeopathy is a miracle cure, it would still be completely correct to say, "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects". This is just how inferential statistics works. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree 81.153.131.222 (talk) 10:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Studies do not make conclusions, only authors (and readers) do. Others may draw different conclusions from the same study. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to define a new philosophy of science, go and do it somewhere else. The conclusions of the study are the studies conclusions. If someone else has written a paper refuting it then we could cite that. Stop trying to push POV and reduce science to opinion. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Authors do make interpretations based on the study (the bulk of the discussion) and other authors may make differing conclusions. However, whether or not the hypothesis was supported is often not a matter of interpretation (except in rare cases where the hypothesis is not clearly defined which should never happen but it does. The Lancet study is not one of these cases). In the Lancet study it is simply a matter of looking through the results and checking for significance. As the results of the study are a fact and not an interpretation we are going to use "the study found..." Science is not just a matter of opinion. The same arguments have been done to death on pages like this one Creation evolution controversy. They weren't accepted there. They won't be accepted here. Facts don't change because people can't accept reality. JamesStewart7 (talk) 03:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

As I've said before, their conclusion seems correct to me. It is nonetheless their conclusion. Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

In the same sense that science fans (like you and me) must be ignored/reverted when they try to make changes to the article not based on reliable sources. If Peter or you says something like "I have often heard homeopaths/scientists use such-and-such an argument", then that might be something that belongs in the article, so the rest of us can try to find reliable sources supporting or negating it. That's the sort of thing that talk pages are for. This is all pretty trivial, and I don't believe you really want to say anything else, but you keep choosing wording that is unnecessarily provocative (Peter MUST be ignored). If you'd back off on the rhetoric we could put our energies into improving the article. --Art Carlson (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I've read the discussion in this section and wonder whether this discussion is based on a reading of the abstract only or the article? Has anyone actually read the article(s) being used in this discussion? Anthon01 (talk) 15:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

New Times article

Readers maybe interested in this new article published today in the UK showing the UK government's plans to regulate Alt med. It also contains some interesting current data about alt med in the UK. Peter morrell 08:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and another! Peter morrell 14:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm having some trouble figuring out what is meant by "proper qualification" and "best practice" in the case of homeopathy. Who decides this and on what basis? As we have seen in our discussions here, it has proven difficult/impossible to prove that any form of homeopathy has any effect at all, so how is anybody supposed to decide with any objectivity at all what constitutes "improper practice"? Call me cynical, but it sounds like homeopaths are trying to use sexual assaults by some of their number to create a framework that makes it easier to sell their beliefs as being scientific. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Bias - Please ignore this

I'm new to homeopathy and haven't done all my research yet. But the main article is clearly bias and should be re-written objectively. Another thing to think about is that there's lots of money in the phramaceutical industry, so whether homeopathic methods work or not they are going to try to supress it. Half of the negative comments on here are probably from people affiated with the pharm industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.145.185 (talk) 18:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Care to back up any of this rubbish with any references or proof? This is the kind of comment that isn't helpful. Can people stick to suggesting improvements. I agree it's biased, mostly in favour of homeopathy right now. Damn now I'm sinking to the level of these trolls .... Sorry everyone. Can we delete this unhelpful comment and it's parent please? That would go some way to improving things 90.197.168.195 (talk) 19:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting. Could you please tell us which statements are biased and how you (clearly) recognize that they are (despite being new to the subject)? Also, unless you some have concrete evidence that a particular editor has a conflict of interest, please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. (@90.197.168.195: I know it can be hard, but please do not bite the newcomers.) --Art Carlson (talk) 19:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If you plan to stick around for awhile, why not register an account? Antelan 19:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello again, sorry about that above I got a bit overheated. Ah well, I might have a glass of water pills to calm down! (That was just a joke, no offence intended) 90.197.168.195 (talk) 19:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

please, this article is a classic drug company hit piece. it provides ONLY negative infomatiaon regarding thei subject and anyattempt at proving the effectivneess of homeopathy is crushed and suppressed. wikipedpias and the main-stream meedia treatment of parapsychology and alterntive scientific research is practilically Stalinist in the amoutn of thought control and bias that pervades its coverage. Smith Jones (talk) 03:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Smith Jones (talk) 03:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I forget, does Godwin's Law have a Stalin clause? Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

no it doesn't, and my comparison is valid. stalin Used mass propaganda such as the parpasycology related articles on wikipedia to brainswash Russans citiznens into beleiving whatever he told them. he controlled all the media and crushed any attempt at dissident views with overwhelming force.this is the same behavior that is being used against me and the people working to improve articles cuh as Uri Geller and Kevin trudeau. i myself was recently just run out of the Sylvia Browne criticisms talk pag eby a barage of insults, threats, and edit warring designed to subjugate my opinion and prevent me form disagreeing with the mainstream establishment. that in and of itself is the very epitome of totalitariainsm. Smith Jones (talk) 04:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Giving predominant weight to the mainstream is Misplaced Pages policy. Antelan 05:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

which does NOT justify the tactics used by Big Pharma to contorl and abuse dissidents. Smith Jones (talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)Italic text Smith Jones (talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You're implicitly accusing all of us who have shaped the article in its present form of working for Big Pharma. That's just plain rude, and it violates a half-dozen or so Misplaced Pages policies. If you continue in this vein things are apt not to end well. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

i am no arccuisng you of anything i am simply poiting out that a majroity of the soruces on ther ientenrt are baised in favor of drug companies and the feds. it has not hing to do with anything anyone here has done and everyhhthing to do with the way they indriectly influecne wikipedia into promoting the vigorously biased ans alndsated assaults on reason or freedom of speech. Smith Jones (talk) 17:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a place to right great wrongs. Antelan 17:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

RCT trials the take into account individualization

Are there RCTs that take into account individualize treatments. If anyone can provide citations, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure that homeopathy has been proven to be only placebo. NCCAM states

"Research studies on homeopathy have been contradictory in their findings. Some analyses have concluded that there is no strong evidence supporting homeopathy as effective for any clinical condition. However, others have found positive effects from homeopathy. The positive effects are not readily explained in scientific terms.

Previous studies modeled after drug trials that support the "homeopathy is placebo" claim don't disprove homeopathy, but disprove the application of a specific remedy, taken over a specific amount of time, for a specific condition. This is one way the homeopathic remedies are used, but it is not the only way. More to come. Anthon01 (talk) 18:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC) NCCAM also states

Treatment in homeopathy is individualized (tailored to each person). Homeopathic practitioners select remedies according to a total picture of the patient, including not only symptoms but lifestyle, emotional and mental states, and other factors.

As with any other health practitioner, the first attempt at diagnosis and treatment often "misses the mark." Changes in dosages and medicines are often needed to 'individualize' treatment. According to homeopathy the issue of individualization is central to success. Anthon01 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Can someone provide links to RCTs that took into effect, the 'individualization' of treatment. Anthon01 (talk) 17:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You can read the Lancet meta-analysis, which cites several that you can read. Antelan 17:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Already discussed above. --Art Carlson (talk) 18:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What was discussed above, the details of the articles or abstracts? Are the above discussions based on abstracts or a reading of the articles? Anthon01 (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh and thanks for the link Art. I had already read that discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 19:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You originally asked for citations to "RCTs that take into account individualize treatments". What better citation could you have than to a recent and reputable meta-analysis? Is it a question of links to the full text of the meta-analysis, or to the studies analyzed therein?. --Art Carlson (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes I was looking for any RCT's that include the 'individualization' of homeopathic remedies. The meta-analysis is the conclusion presented by a research team. Have you read the meta-analysis or are you basing your judgement strictly on the abstract? I did read the discussion in the section above and wonder whether everyone has read the abstract or the article and abstract. I have the meta-analysis (LMA) and am looking for any studies reference in the LMA and others that may not have been. Anthon01 (talk) 00:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read the study yet, but I just now got access to a copy and will respond after I have looked through it. On the other hand, Misplaced Pages should not depend too much on what you or I think of the article. It remains a reliable source. Do you have an opinion about whether we should reference it? Do you know of any other secondary sources of comparable quality on scientific studies of individualized homeopathy? --Art Carlson (talk) 08:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes I would agree that it is a RS. However, the abstract is only a small part of what is written in the source. I think it should be referenced. I am looking for quality sources that use study designs that adequately test treatment methodologies used in classical (individualized) homeopathy. A number of editors seem certain that homeopathy has been completely discredited but the available data I have seen does not support that. Anthon01 (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Anthon01 why exactly is the meta-analysis insufficient? Going to the original studies risks WP:SYN issues. I think it is impractical to include all 32 trials and objectively describe them (length issues) so I don't see that as an option either. If we're picking a particular few, there is always the risk that wikipedians exhibit their own publication bias. According to the meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy, when the best studies are considered, homeopathy is equivelant to a placebo. This is not the case when the poor trials are included but Linde notes that these trials are of poor quality and well poor quality experiments give you unreliable results? Btw I have read the full source. In my opinion (which I understand is worthless due to OR issues but I'm going to give it anyway), Linde did quite a good job on the study. A break down of all the studies are given an the comments are quite extensive. JamesStewart7 (talk) 08:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It might be interesting to describe a very small number (1-3) of specific studies to give the reader an idea of how individualized homeopathy has been scientifically tested. To avoid cherry picking and general fisticuffs, the only criterion we could use is to choose the studies that the meta-analysis describes as being the best. There are 6 studies "likely to have good methodological quality", of these 3 are "rigorous" and 2 are "extremely rigorous". Of the 6 studies, 2 nearly show a significant (95% CI) positive result. The two "extremely rigorous" studies, which would be the most natural candidates for inclusion, are clearly negative. Are these the sorts of studies you would like to describe in the article, Anthon01? --Art Carlson (talk) 09:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I would agree, Art, but you must ensure that in such studies true individualisation WAS carried out, or the study/article in question is not of much use to show anything of worth. thanks Peter morrell 09:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

What is "true individualization"? Do you have a specific criticism of the method of individualization used in any of the studies classed by this meta-analysis as "likely to have good methodological quality"? --Art Carlson (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I have not read them so I don't know. I don't know even if I have access to them. True individualisation means a) not grouping the patients by using a disease label and b) allowing the treatment of each patient to be free of formal constraint, that is so the therapist can apply whatever remedies in whatever potency and whatever frequency they wish, when they wish and change it as required according to patient responses. In a usual (good) homeopathic treatment this is what happens. The case is taken, a suitable remedy is chosen and given; the response or lack of is noted; case -re-taken after a phone chat or note, new remedy given, response noted, wait and see...etc. This is clearly not a predictable standard format for every patient. Some will respond positively to first remedy, others don't. Much digging (into other aspects of their health or family history) is needed for some cases while in others it is not required. So what I meant was that unless all this is allowed in the trial then the study is NOT studying true homeopathic work, but some other maybe diluted approach. Does this clarify? And of course the methodological quality is important as has been suggested but if it does not allow this approach then the study (whatever else it might be doing) is not studying homeopathy for the individual patient. And therefore its conclusions reveal nothing about homeopathy as such. thanks Peter morrell 11:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm speaking from memory here but in order to be included in the meta-analysis the study must have given the practitioners complete freedom in what remedies they may prescribe for each condition and be able to conduct their own sessions with the patient. So since the homeopaths could basically do what they like then, if homeopaths do pracice "true individualization", this was the case for every study in the meta-analysis. JamesStewart7 (talk) 13:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is it important to (a) not group the patients by using a disease label? I can take potential subjects, run them through a conventional diagnosis, take only those that M.D.s diagnose as having disease X, and then send these to the homeopaths. Is there any reason to think that homeopaths can cure (on average) all my potential subjects, but not those diagnosed with X? If so, then I only need to take the group not diagnosed with X, and I will find an even stronger effect. You can work around (b) in a similar way. One of the "rigorous" studies was limited to 11 remedies, but "patients were included only if the similium was among those". The rules chosen in the various studies were different, but several of the best studies allowed a lot of freedom. For example the homeopathic invervention in Walach et al. (1997) was described as "completely free individualized homeopathic treatment", and in de Lange et al. (1994) as "constitutional and acute individual similium as necessary (changes possible, dosage and potency variable)". I don't see any reason that these methods should not be called "individualized homeopathy". I understand that many studies have been criticized for not being individualized. It would be very interesting if you have a notable, reliable source criticizing these studies. --Art Carlson (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I just finished reading the meta-analysis. I think it is quality work that addresses a common objection to scientific studies of homeopathy and should be included in the article in some detail. It is, however, nearly ten years old, and the authors wrote at that time "Since we completed the literature search for our meta-analysis in autumn 1995, a number of new randomized trials of individualized homeopathy have been published and several are actually in the process of publication or on-going." And "In recent years there has been a considerable increase in the number and methodological quality of randomized clinical trials of individualized homeopathic prescribing." It would be very helpful to have a more recent analysis, even if it is not as thorough as this one. A final comment directed to Peter: The authors write "there is no consensus about what good quality homeopathy means". That is, we cannot (at least not in Misplaced Pages) talk about "true homeopathic work", but only about homeopathy as it is practised, with some attempt to account for its major divisions. --Art Carlson (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Art, it is OK to group patients in any way you wish, that is not the issue, what I meant was that homeopathy treats people, not 'conditions;' therefore, you treat the symptom totality and not just some vaguely labelled 'condition,' that is the meaning and it is the thrust of all the great textbooks of homeopathic method and all the great homeopaths since Hahnemann's day. In my study oif the subject, I would suggest there are very few people who call themslves homeopaths who not follow this approach. I mean approaching a fraction of 5% if not a fraction of 1%. However, I agree more recent studies would be preferred. Maybe you can email me the link to download the article? another factor: how were the outcomes determined, subjectively or objectively? limiting the study to the use of only 11 remedies cannot be considered good homeopathy; there must be no limit on the choice of remeies. thanks Peter morrell 14:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

As near as I can tell, some studies used subjective outcomes and some objective. The entries in the table under "outcome extracted" are

• global assessment (2 entries)
• global assessment patients (6)
• global assessment physician (4)
• duration of diarrhea (2)
• preference (1)
• response/responder (3)

Some of these also added the descriptor "crossover trial". --Art Carlson (talk) 15:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Be aware that there is likely to be a difference between what homeopathy can do and what homeopaths acomplish in practice. Limiting the choice of remedies may be a good thing, to control the effect of treatment errors, even if it is a methodological concession. Guido den Broeder (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm still looking for more recent work. I did find the "Habilitationsschrift" of Linde, presented on 3 Dec 2002, in which he cites his own study, the one being discussed here, and a meta-analysis by Ernst, also from 1998, which concluded that it was not possible to conclude anything because of methodological weaknesses and inconsistencies. Another paper from 2005 (Harald Walach , Wayne B. Jonas , John Ives , Roel Van Wijk , Otto Weingärtner , Dr.Phil.Nat. . 2005. Research on Homeopathy: State of the Art. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 11:5, 813-829.) also only cites these two (Linde and Ernst) as "COMPREHENSIVE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS AND META-ANALYSES ON THE GENERAL QUESTION OF WHETHER HOMEOPATHY IS PLACEBO OR NOT". An editorial by Walach from 2003 (Harald Walach . 2003. Reinventing the Wheel Will Not Make It Rounder: Controlled Trials of Homeopathy Reconsidered. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 9:1, 7-13.) also suggests that Linde is the high water mark. My impression is that there was a surge of effort in the 90's that has since receeded (wether due to disappointment or fashion). I think this analysis will be the best we can do. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Lost section

Yeah, obviously we're all paid by BigPharma - despite the fact that big pharma would love it if homeopathy worked. Small overheads, no side effects, no need to prove anything in a trial.... There's no agenda pushing from pro-homeopaths either, they're just trying to get the truth out. The point is the science, which is not someone's opinion, does not support homeopathy. Borion et al can pay for independent studies if they don't like the existing ones, and universities have independently funded trials of homeopathy which have shown no evidence of the claimed effects. Just who is pushing a POV, agenda, and doing a "hit piece" here? You people really make me laugh sometimes with your paranoia! Thanks! Or maybe they got to me already - what's the homeopathic sugar pill for paranoia? --88.172.132.94 (talk) 18:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What? You guys are all paid by Big Pharma and I've been editing for free? Somebody tell me what I need to do to get my piece of the action! --Art Carlson (talk) 20:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

BigPharma has no use for un-patentable medicines. And homeopathic remedies whether they work or not would directly compete with BigPharmas profits. Anthon01 (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If homeopathy actually worked, Big Pharma (oooh...look at the scary capital letters) would have no trouble at all milking it for cash. They'd love homeopathic remedies. The material costs are nearly zero, and the 'quality' assurance is a snap. (Just run a sample through the HPLC/MS and make sure that it doesn't contain any non-water/filler ingredients.) Side effects are negligible. If homeopathic remedies actually worked, there would be a dozen different ways to patent them. Here's a few:

• Combine the homeopathic remedy with a real drug of some sort. Patent the combo. (This is done all the time with real drugs.) Repeat every time the patent comes up for expiry.
• Use a different starting material that still produces the desired symptoms. Patent the new drug.
• Use a different extraction process in the preparation.
• Use a modified, recombinant protein as a starting material.

If there were any indication at all that homeopathic remedies performed at all, Big Pharma wouldn't fight them; instead Big Pharma would use all of their Evil Powers to extract money from them. (I would be entirely unsurprised to find out that Big Pharma companies already owned many of the distributors of homeopathic remedies.) Big Pharma would love to see homeopathy work, because they'd be able to hike prices on homeopathic products and sell them to a larger market. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming any of those things would work better than what already exist, eh? And I just repeated the term that was used before. Maybe you should back off on the coffee?:-) And BTW, they are BIG. Anthon01 (talk) 19:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

god Forbid if you or any of you're loved onces every suffer from a disease, but if that ever happens to you you will realize how vicous and predatory and depraved these pharmaceutical companies can be. they supress homeopathic therapy becausethey dont want there to be any chance of eradicating any of the major diseases that plague the modern world -- cancer, AIDs, malaria and others. their researchers know that if homeoapthy becomes widely accepted people will be able to treat themselves in their woen homes or even open up competing clinics to care for themselves instead of relying the toxins dispendsed by their research facilities. that is why research on homeoapthy is carefully controlled and make sure that anyone who dares to speak otu agianst the current paradigm is viciously discredited and their reputations and trampled upon. if yuo look at the backgrounds of all the major firms that claim that "disporvE" homeopathic research you will find that the big pharma has its roots sunk deep into each thand every one onf them.Smith Jones (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Tell me again why we have to "assume good faith" from illiterate conspiracy theorists? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I think he must be a literal straw-man! He's not actually supporting homeopathy, he wants to make them look bad... or he needs to calm down a bit! Maybe he's being paid to edit here on behalf on BigFarma. Or maybe it's a double-bluff and that's what they want us to think, and he's a BigSugar hitman! Or it's all rubbish and this section should be deleted. I'd also ask any editors to ask this guy to calm down, but I see he's been asked before --88.172.132.94 (talk) 22:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Smith Jones - please back up your claims that the pharmaceutical industry is engaged in a conspiracy to suppress homeopathy to keep people sick and make more money by providing reliable, secondary sources that state this. Please do not use Misplaced Pages as a soapbox for your opinions, and try to keep your conversation on the topic of improving the article. --Phirazo 05:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

the pharmaceutical companies are nto engage in a "conspiracy" and nowhere have i had argued that this was the case . only my oopponents have stated sch things. my argument ist aht the pharmaceutical companies promtoe and support studies that probve their claims to be true as a ordinary part of running thierbusisinesses. they do not do this out of malice bu tout o fa need to increase their profit margins. perhaps they are not deliberalye suppressing homeopathy but they do not want it to be seen as truebecuase if people stop buying druigs and start mkaing their own they will make substantially fewer money. there is no way for me to prove this, anymore than there is a way to prove that it is not true, but I can site credible sources that disucss such big-pharma business practices:

• General article on Kevin trudeau, discusses his theory
• news site that covers alternative medicine and skepticaism related to
• FoxNews has a series involving homeoapthy, alternative medicine, and big pharma's coverup
• discusses the charade made by drug companies to supress any interest in homeoapthic science
• further muckraking by a presitigous news site affiliated with CNN about amthe coverup— Preceding unsigned comment added by Smith_Jones (talk • contribs)

That info may merit its own article. This is not it. Antelan 01:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

if you think thats a good ide athat then i'll get right on creatinga new article. I think it should go as Pphramaceutical Industry Coverups or perhaps be added to the drug company or big pharma article. Smith Jones (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Kevin Trudeau? Really? The guy from the infomercials? That is about as unreliable a source as you can get. News Target is certainly not neutral, and I can find little information on its reliablity. How is it "affiliated with CNN"? The New Internationalist source is bashing homeopathy pretty hard. The Fox News source is a transcript from The O'Reilly Factor, and isn't very useful for article writing. This entire idea that "the pharmaceutical industry is suppressing homeopathy to make more money" is a conspiracy theory, and if the best source you have is Kevin Trudeau, than it does not belong in the article. --Phirazo 04:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

we al need to grow up!

PERHAPS you thinkt aht you're insults and slanders will stop me from working hardto improve wikipedia. if that is your mindset, fine, but i must warn you that you are wrong. i am not a straw-man and my support fro homeopathic medicine is as sincere and honest as is your oposition to homeopathic mediine. there are some whose mindsets prevent them from beliving that any-one who disagress with them is serious, but that is again the typeo of attitude that is poison to any free editable encyclopeia. i was under the impression that this was a forum in which the body of human knowledge can be placed together and amde easily accessible to the commonf veiwr, but increasingaly have been notocing signs that a few people (not necesarily the people here, but a few editors in gerneral) consider wikipedia to be their own private fortress in which no dissenting opinion no mnater how well-sourced or how comon it might be outside their little bubble is permitted. looking back i must admits that i have been overreacting alittle bit on this talkpage and that i have failed to obersve good faith on the part of my fellow editors and that i should apologize for that. however, i am not the onyl one who has been behaving contrary to the stated goals of wikipedia and i alsmo must observe that in your zeal to make sure that the drug companies get their way in all areas of published research that you have ignored your obligation toassume good faith on my part as much as I have. i Still want to work past this and if we are able to cease the constant bckering and hostility and focus on improiving this article then i think that i can be a much better article thatn the biased slop it currently is. Smith Jones (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia which is edited based on it's policies - some of which contradict your interpretation of what Misplaced Pages is - hence your problems. I encourage you to review WP:NOT to help you with your understanding. Shot info (talk) 00:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow you actually managed to apologise for not assuming good faith and accuse everyone of pandering to drug companies in the same post! JamesStewart7 (talk) 10:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

i have revewied those informaitons more times that ic an possibly counts, and i see nothing in them that specifically rejects theidea of homeopathic medicine. Smith Jones (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Automatic archiving

There is a bot that will automatically archive old threads: MiszaBot I. Since this page sees quite a bit of discussion, I think it would be beneficial to use this bot. The howto is here, but to summarize, the main variables that can be set are how old the thread has to be to be archived, and how big the archives can be. I think archiving threads at the age of one week, and an having archive size of 200 KB would be a good place to start. I'll set it up if there is a consensus to use it. --Phirazo 21:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, if there isn't any objections, I'll manually combine some of the old archives. A few are at 30K, which is too small this subject. {{Archive list long}} only goes up to 36, and I'd like to stay under that for as long as possible. --Phirazo 21:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I have enabled Miszabot to archive this page. --Phirazo 19:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Please go ahead. It's getting problematic to load this talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 21:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It is running now, and I have set it to archive threads older than two weeks. --Phirazo 18:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

typo to clear up

{{editprotected}} Under GeneralPhilosophy, Law of similarity, could an admin please change "symptoms similar to of those disease being treated " to "symptoms similar to those of the disease being treated"? I'm trawling through WP looking for "to of" to correct! Not controversial, not urgent, except that having found it I'd like to get it fixed. Thanks PamD (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Talk page problems

Why are comments on this page disappearing or moving around seemingly at random? Can somebody please fix this or put a stop to it. It's hard enough to follow this debate as it is. Thanks! --147.171.255.159 (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I have everything sorted out. Threads older than two weeks have been archived here, and all the newer information is back. If I missed something, let me know. --Phirazo 18:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag, again

The article has been full protected to stop an edit war over one lousy tag. Does this article really need it? I think the article is about as neutral as it is going to get, and perma-tagging this article is pointless. The point of tags is " alert other editors that work is needed, and auto-categorize pages so that patrolling editors can aid their talent to the problem." See Misplaced Pages:Dispute templates. If you feel the tag is needed, please point out the specific parts that are POV so they can be fixed. --Phirazo 22:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I have not been actively involved in recent discussion or editing of this article, but on quick observation it still states in the third paragraph of the LEAD, "ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible", this is not NPOV. —Whig (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is that not NPOV? WP:Fringe states that it is appropriate to report levels of acceptance and there are scientific reviews to source that statement. If we can say the earth is spherical, then we should be able to also say that homeopathy is scientifically implausible. I'm sure I can find a whole bunch of people who think the earth is flat. It is not sufficient to say you do not like the POV of a sentence as WP:NPOV clearly states we do not need to give equal validity to fringe theories. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience also found that "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." So please explain, with reference to wikipedia policy why anything in the article is not NPOV. JamesStewart7 (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You may attribute the statement to a reliable source, but otherwise you are stating your POV. —Whig (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

"The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible" is sourced to The Lancet, a highly influential and peer-reviewed medical journal. Sources don't get much more reliable than that. --Phirazo 00:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. So say, "According to the respected Lancet, ..." —Whig (talk) 00:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

respected is POV. just say according to the journal Lancet

Yes, that's fine. —Whig (talk) 00:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

protection

this aprotection is a ownderful opportunity. if we could exntend it for 2-3 months and focu sall of our energy onthe talk page to resolve our disuptes. i support Whigs' positon here. pretsenting view s critical of homeoapthy is fine iwth me., but they must be relegatedto the talk page or sourced from a RELIABLE, WIKIPEDIA-CTERIFIED SOURCE or else they are opinion statemnets. and not worthy of wiipieda. it has nothing to wo do with WP:Fringe (homeoapthy, a scientific pracice with billions of supporters worldwide, is hardly a fringe supject]. Smith Jones (talk) 23:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

If you're not going to learn how science works, can you please learn how to speak and type English? Your comments are bordering on incomprehensible. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 01:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

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