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CIPFG

CIPFG (Coalition to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong in China) is an organisation investigating the crimes against human rights for believers of the Falun Gong and other religions. I think this organisation definitely belongs to this wikipedia article and I am hereby suggesting to put at least the link of their website. http://www.cipfg.org/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by SimonHiemstra (talk • contribs) 14:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

For the moment I added here: CIPFG, however that page should be extended and perhaps we should make a page for the Human Rights Torch Relay as well. Thank you for reminding us and don't forget, you are welcome to contribute! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 15:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

References 4 and 5

This is a very specific comment relating how references are used in this article. Organ harvesting is not mentioned in references 4 or 5, but is in the list of abuses in the preceding sentence. If the charge is controversial, this needs to be made clear. In that case, organ harvesting should probably be in a new sentence with a specific cross-reference to the article on Falun Gong and organ harvesting. If it is verifiably true, one or more third party-references are needed because references are provided for the other abuses. Of course if it verifiably false, it needs to be dropped. 66.31.71.233 16:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Falun Gong Dharmic?

Is Falun Gong a Dharmic religion? It does have belief in Dharma... 124.185.197.226 06:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd be interested to hear what a FLG practitioner has to say about this! Jsw663 (talk) 15:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so ... Although I'm not quite sure what Dharmic means in this context, plus I'm not quite sure that we should call it a religion either, since it does not have many of the usual characteristic of religions, like membership, worshiping, etc ... What there is in Falun Dafa are the exercises, 5 of them, simple ones, and study of some scriptures, which I find to be very interesting and quite good. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 17:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's a religion: Li claims divinity and the ability to teleport and levitate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bokane (talk • contribs) 23:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Archived

I just made an archive of the old period. It was long overdue. There didn't seem to be any outstanding discussions. Right now there is a lovely stasis on the pages. That's the smell of cooperation and goodwill. Congratulations, everyone!--Asdfg12345 11:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Relevance of tags?

   * Its factual accuracy is disputed.Tagged since July 2007.
   * It needs sources or references that appear in third-party publications. Tagged since August 2007.
   * It may need a complete rewrite to meet Misplaced Pages's quality standards.Tagged since August 2007.
   * It contains too many quotations for an encyclopedic entry. Tagged since July 2007.

are these still relevant?--Asdfg12345 12:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Where it asks for 3rd party references, I think it should be removed. Try doing a count, there seems to be more 3rd party sources than FG sources. Benjwong 05:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

MfD

FYI: proposed this bunch of obsolete working drafts for deletion. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Talk:Falun Gong/Working Anti-FG Ohconfucius 04:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Spyware?

recently i downloaded a chinese movie, its in rar form and i downloaded it from a chinese website based in china, guess wat my mcafee found, trojan and there is a new folder in my document called freeway and the nine com talk about how evil ccp is, i think fa lun gong is involved in trojan and stuff like that ,i also heard ppl complained that falun gong send spams to ppl ,so should we include it to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinoli (talk • contribs)

Surely not all spywares have to do with Falun Gong, but Falun Gong people do bundle propaganda with downloads, and they do have software that enables them to send their propaganda spams from your computer. So beware. ps. I saw some comments below saying it can't possibly be a Falun Gong website since it's in China. Well dahhhh. Of course it wouldn't be a straight forward Falun Gong website, it's probably a Falun Gong website camouflaged as a regular download site. ps2. If you are a Falun Gong spam sender, I don't give a damn about politics, but your spams sure piss me off. Stop sending those spams, it's been almost 10 years and most people already know about the Falun Gong Issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.188.172 (talk • contribs)

If you have a source, we could look at it. Ohconfucius 02:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah it's good to back up things like this. I would be shocked by anyone who called themselves a practitioner and would spread spyware. If you downloaded it from a website based in China it could not be a Falun Gong website anyway. If this happened I would not be surprised if it were a CCP website or something associated. Falun Gong just wants to clarify the truth about the persecution, not spy on people's stuff. I think some Falun Gong practitioners do send unsolicited emails to people inside China. Good on them! Chinese people need to learn the truth about the evil persecution, and need to know that Dafa is good. This is absolutely not for any personal gain or selfish motivation. --Asdfg12345 09:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A Falun Gong practitioner wouldn't spread pirated media files for a start :). 194.88.250.22 22:40, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

i checked the source but its removed but i found another one in the game "age of empire 3" my friend downloaded from internet, he gave it to me, wat should i do take a screenshot or upload the file to the wiki — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinoli (talk • contribs)

Dude if you are getting trojans and stuff in your downloads it has nothing to do with Falun Gong. Falun Gong is a Chinese meditation practice with 5 exercises, based on the principles truthfulness-compassion-forbearance, have you read the article? Practitioners do exercises and read books which discuss those concepts. Falun Gong's involvement with technology/media has arisen because they are persecuted in China, and these mechanisms are being used to promote public awareness and to ultimately end the killing and torturing in China. You can check out this website: www.falundafa.org which explains what Falun Dafa is. There is a wikipedia page about the persecution. Just run a virus scanner on all the stuff you get from torrents, and be careful about which websites you visit. You should just switch to linux anyway and avoid these complications!--Asdfg12345 00:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

dude calm down, gettin trojan is common but gettin trojan with a brand new folder created in my document talkin about falungong and the 9 com is not normal, and its not deletable!

im a chinese my self and i dont hate falungong ,but wat they did make me hate them many chinese using bittorrent to share file with each but falungong ppl puttin trojans and falungong papaganda to those file damaged them and hurtin the entire bt online community! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.138.241 (talk) 02:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the Epoch Times, it's within morals to use such measures to spread their information inside China, which censors such info. Falun Gong practitioners has previously hacking into a Chinese satellite to spread their doctrines.--PCPP 07:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I'm a bit confused, can you just give a link to the file so we can examine what is going on. I don't even know why any practitioner would do that in the first place. Like I say, it's just about telling people about the evil persecution, not about spying on your stuff, or "spreading doctrines". It's hard to work out exactly what's going on here. Even if there were a 9ping file with a trojan in it, there's no guarantee it's from any Falun Gong practitioner, I'd say it's not, and if you got it from a Chinese website it couldn't possibly be. --Asdfg12345 08:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets summarize: It can't have been a Falun Gong website, since you said it was a website in China, and in China any Falun Gong website would get removed within seconds. You also made it obvious that you where downloading pirated software illegaly and that the way the alleged Falun Gong information was spread was by form of a Virus/Malware embeded therein. Since everyone knows that Falun Gong claims to uphold to strict moral prniciples i would call it unlikely at best that any Falun Gong practitioner with half a brain would do such a thing, cause it's so obvious that it will necessarily be self-incriminating.

But just for the sake of argument let's asume it really was done by a neceseraly very stupid Falun Gong practitioner who is obviously not upholding any of Falun Gong's moral principles... So what? If in a group of a couple of million people you give an example of a single case in which someone did something bad/stupid, does that mean the whole group is like that? Does that mean that the next time you see someone doing the Falun Gong exercises you look down upon him and go everywhere to tell people about how bad Falun Gong would be? Does that kinda logic make sense? Does it work if you devalue people categoraly?

--Hoerth 11:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

i generally agreed with u, one person is bad doesn't mean the entire group is bad. but there is examples of what falun gong did, such the hack into the chinese tv satellites in 2002, blamed practitioners who got robbed n attacked on chinese serect agents, callin chinese who opposite them communist, is this Strict moral principles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinoli (talk • contribs) 21:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Question:

1. hack into the chinese tv satellites in 2002,
2. blamed practitioners who got robbed n attacked on chinese serect agents
3. callin chinese who opposite them communist,

is this Strict moral principles?

Reply:

1. when your opponent is a one-party dictatorship, and there is no freedom of expression, this is a legitimate form of protest. Lying, however, would be against those principles
2. probably not, as it may be true but will be difficult to prove. But it's OK to refer to them as suspicions.
3. There is nothing derogatory about that label - so calling them Communist would not be wrong. 'Communist" is what the ruling party calls itself, although I don't see anything Communist in what is happening in China today. If anyone openly called them fascist, they would still be correct according to the dictionary definition. ;-) Ohconfucius 10:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• As for the assault which allegedly took place inside the Chinese embassy somewhere, which is legally deemed do be Chinese soil and under Chinese security watch, it's foreseeable, preventable, and thus pretty inexcusable on the part of consular officials (assuming, that is, they were not complicit in the assault). Ohconfucius 13:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

the place where my friend download his game and the that trojan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinoli (talk • contribs) 21:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Used to be a list but now nothing http://search3.btchina.net/btsearch.php?query=%D1%C7%D6%DE%CD%F5%B3%AF&type=0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinoli (talk • contribs) 21:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

• But how about the evidence? Ohconfucius 10:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

the file is the evidence but its remove that why there is no file on that page but i have the file in rar form in my computer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinoli (talk • contribs) 12:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• What I meant is which journal(s) mentions the Falun Gong trojans in download files? Ohconfucius 02:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

OK so you downloaded a file with a Trojan in it. And you Think that this can somehow do something with Falun Gong, whose guiding principle are Truthfulness - Compassion - Forbearance. Do you have any evidence for the connection, or you have only a few things that heard? If you have only things that you heard you should consider that these things can be influenced by the biggest propaganda machine of the planet, called Xinhua news agency, which is ran by the Communist Party of China. Also to understand better what I mean you can read this Story from Ancient China: The Dangers of Believing Without Rationalisation :) Best Regards, --HappyInGeneral 16:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

This is too funny. Not because of the spyware. But because there is no real intellectual property in PRC. Pirated goods are practically mainstream goods. You have as much right to take the rar file and put your own subtitle, your own name, your own everything into the file before passing it along to the next person. Since CPC don't care to stop piracy. It will eventually be a hole exploited by every person in the country. Benjwong 17:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

because it contains falungong anti communist files n the trojan within the file that make me "think" falungong have something to do with it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinoli (talk • contribs) 02:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

And you Think that this can somehow do something with Falun Gong, whose guiding principle are Truthfulness - Compassion - Forbearance.

Not only a No true Scotsman fallacy, the sycophancy and blatant lack of neutrality makes me puke. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Falun Gong and live organ harvesting

There is a pretty good amount of evidence on the organ harvesting issue. There were 2 officials from Canada who did an in depth investigation into the issue. Neither one of them practices Falun Dafa. After their investigation, they compiled a report on the issue. The whole report can be found here: http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaJP (talk • contribs)

• This above discussion is in the wrong place, perhaps? it has its own page here Ohconfucius (talk) 02:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Inside China's 'crematorium' is a revealing report about this issue. --Majontomorrow (talk) 02:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

undamental== Chinese Government / Fascism == OK there's been quite a lot of talk above about the Chinese Government being fascist, but I really cannot agree, especially as someone studying politics. We have to know the differences between communism and fascism first, and I don't think that's quite apparent. The PRC is not like Japan or Nazi Germany because it does not seek to conquer other countries (Taiwan being under dispute here but if you look back into history, Taiwan is really a part of China) (the disputed islands are much more neutral in status on the whole). The PRC also does not seek to impose its direct rule on any other country. Its economy is too capitalistic to be called state-controlled. The only aspect of the PRC that can be called remotely 'fascist' is its authoritarianism, and even this is heavily exaggerated by the media. Last but not least, the PRC does not humiliate (passive, non-independence-seeking) minorities via symbols like the Jewish Star of David, nor are they sent to camps to be killed (re-education now being the preferred method).

What I've listed above is just the basics. Let's not try to mislabel the CPC or CCP as 'fascist' without clearing up the terms first. Remember, for an encyclopedia your own political views should not show, especially as Wiki also pursues objectivity. Whilst everybody has a right to their opinion, it is not appropriate to express this in the article unless, for example, the Falun Gong entry specifically states that Li Hongzhi/FG practitioners hold this view. Do not confuse opinions with facts. Thanks. Jsw663 (talk) 15:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• I apologise for once again airing my opinion here, much as I dislike it. I believe that communism (including Chinese communism) is a contradiction. Ideologically, perfect fascism (national socialism) is probably achievable, whereas perfect communism can only be theorised. Essentially, the Communist Party is an elite with a firm grip on power with a dictator's paranoia to match. Its authoritarian traits really quite comparable in many ways a fascist Ohconfucius (talk) 05:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Jsw, there are hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of people in labour camps. Many of them are Falun Gong. They are there because of their beliefs. They are prisoners of conscience. They are frequently tortured and killed. You must realise this...--Asdfg12345 11:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• You failed to mention forceful coercion (which often makes re-education an euphemism) and the high levels of censorship employed by the CCP in the implementation of policies. Your language is also inaccurate as you are indirectly suggesting that Japan is currently seeking to conquer other countries, if Nazi Germany had not been mentioned. Arkansaw (talk) 11:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

To Arkansaw, I meant Imperial Japan (WW2 Japan). Whether they are not expansionist now is a matter of opinion, so thanks for clearing that up. I am also trying to clear up emotive language as much as possible esp considering the FG page. Jsw663 (talk) 15:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

To Asdfg, we have been over this a thousand times at least. Misplaced Pages is supposed to report everything from a bystander's view. E.g. regardless of what you think about Gitmo or the Iraq War, on Misplaced Pages it has to be reported as is, without any opinion or judgment as to whether it's right or wrong. This also applies for the Chinese government, and relabelling them by your own criteria and political opinion is not Wikipedian for a Wiki entry. Notice I'm only saying this is for the main entry page. Moreover, on the main entry page you are allowed to say, for example, that Li Hongzhi and FG practitioners believe that the Chinese Government is fascist, but you cannot pass off opinion as fact. In sum, I'm not saying I personally disagree with you, but am saying that such labels cannot be passed off as facts on a supposedly objective encyclopedia. Can you see my point here, Asdfg? Jsw663 (talk) 15:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I see your point and agree with it. Though, it is not a response to what I said. I am just saying that the CCP puts people in labour camps and tortures them to death for their beliefs. You must acknowledge that.--Asdfg12345 01:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

A brief note from Olaf the idler: I agree with Jsw663 to some extent. I'd rather limit the use of the word "fascism" to a well-known period in the history of Italy. At present, China is a neocommunist dictatorship that frequently employs state terrorism to crush the perceived adversaries of the CCP. It shares some essential qualities with Mussolini's Italy, such as aestheticization of political persecutions and the military, suppression of dissidents (portrayed as necessities for "the greater good", "social stability", or whatever), centralized political power, pop nationalism, and so on, but it's definitely not corporatist like Italy was in the 1920s and 30s. I do understand why people call the CCP with such labels, though. Personally, I'd prefer something down-to-earth, such as "a bunch of rotten criminals"... OK, seriously speaking, I think "neocommunist totalitarianism" is the most usable term I can come up with. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• If we were in Mainland China, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Our posts would be deleted and we would all be rounded up. "I'd prefer something down-to-earth, such as "a bunch of rotten criminals"" ;-) I think they coined the term Socialism with Chinese characteristics just as to avoid these nasty sticky labels -of course, that's only a label which applies in the economic sphere. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Stereotypes again, Ohconfucius? You don't even live in mainland China. Don't let your political inclinations get the better of you when writing about the Chinese government on Misplaced Pages - remember Wiki is supposed to be about objectivity. Also, what makes you say that Chinese socialism only applies to the economic sphere!? Furthermore, after you said you don't want the discussion about the Chinese government to spill over onto this FG discussion page (on my talk page) you do just that yourself - hypocritical much!? Jsw663 (talk) 15:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

To Olaf, Asdfg - no matter how repugnant you find the Chinese government an encyclopedia cannot carry these personal judgments onto a factually-descriptive encyclopedia. As I have said before, you are fully entitled to your own opinion, but as long as we are on Wiki we need to uphold Wiki principles and place these Wiki principles in absolute priority as long as we are on Misplaced Pages, wouldn't you agree??? Jsw663 (talk) 15:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

To Jsw663, I don't know where you are from,but you are definitely ignorant of situation in China, dont you know Misplaced Pages is banned there?most chinese editors have to use third party software, mainly those developed by falun gong practitioners,just to enjoy free writing!and you say that is stereotype??? it seems from your words that you know better than other editors, could you tell me what will happen if you search falun gong or 6.4 with google china? I am a chinese from mainland, I am proud of my country, my culture and my history, but I would say so much of them were destroyed by nobody other than communism party.I feel sorry for my strong emotion, but I am really disappointed still someone in the democratic society will fight for such a notorious party.I am just here by coincidence, and I would like to trust you as an objective editor.however, please remember the objective attitude by no means would go beyond the fact and try to cover the evil. if you would say some editors are biased towards that political system,please make sure whether they are talking about the truth or really exaggerating.if you happened to know what happened in the justice of Nanjing Pengyu,then maybe you will understand how the social value is greatly distorted. fascism only means conquering another country?what would you say the independent war between u.s. and u.k., fascism? to my understanding, fascism is more characterized by ideology control with violence threaten,which is exactly demonstrated by that political system. I feel quite shamed by the fact that quite a lot of people including chinese regard criticizing the party the same as criticizing chinese as a nation.Forthesakeof (talk) 23:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Uhh pardon me Ohconfucius/Forthesakeof, when or where did I say that there was no censorship in China, or that China was the shining beacon of individualistic human freedom? And please tell me how I am fighting for the CPC/CCP by saying we should adhere to Wiki rules of NPOV and objectivity, and that we shouldn't be misnaming the CPC/CCP according to personally-determined characteristics as 'fascist' or 'evil'. As an editor says in the section below this one, we need to let the readers decide for themselves. If they think the Chinese government is evil, then let them think that; if they think it is good, then let them think that too. A temporary majority Wikipedian view does not in any way justify pre-judging for others what the Chinese government is about. This is why I constantly and consistently talk about strict adherence to Wiki rules and remove all personal opinion on government.

Regardless of where you say you are from, Forthesakeof, Misplaced Pages adheres to Wikipedian rules, not rules that you think that are right. Moreover, you seem to fail to understand the difference of fascism seeing the need to conquer others, and seeing the need to conquer others as fascism. Whilst the first is true, the latter (second) is not unique to fascism itself. It astounds me to note you have a very clear idea of what constitutes the Chinese people's will yet you cannot tell the difference between a characteristic and an ideology, and that they are not mutually inclusive. Jsw663 (talk) 15:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Jsw,so many times quite a few people keep using Misplaced Pages rules to justify their editions,irrespective the common sense. in fact I totally agree with rules such as unbiased view,however,as I mentioned, unbiased view would by no means cover the fact. I did not see your point with repeating conquer,if you can look at fascism on Misplaced Pages itself which says"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state", I do think you have the capability to grasp the implication and the relating image with CCP. I acknowledged that ccp is not usually referred to fascism by mainstream media,and I dont know whether some scholars are doing so,therefore I am not trying to edit this article, I would just remind you they do share similarities in case you are not familiar, you have your choice, anyway. appreciate your great calm to ignore my somewhat aggressive words. you are right it doesn't matter where your are originated,but please don't use stereotype casually if you are not familiar as well. regarding chinese characteristic and the ideology, there is one example can illustrate how they are inclusive,you can try as well, if you talk with chinese about any issue like falun gong,or 6.4,how many would kindly remind you "they are pursuing political power backed by cold war mindset western politicians, dont get urself trapped",a typical propaganda by ccp to relate anti-ccp force with so called "western anti china force". Jsw, i hope you wont have the feeling that i am criticizing you, or actually you are full aware of the situation but just different opinions, that is totally fine. you have the rights for voice, which I just remind you is currently deprived of public by the control of ccp.Forthesakeof (talk) 17:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)p.s.:dont think i will come there often, no need to reply. best wishes

I'm not saying you don't have a general idea of what fascism is, Forthesakeof. However, it is clear that you cannot distinguish between fascism and communism.

I also thought Falun Gong claimed itself not to be political yet it uses events like 6.4 to justify its... teachings. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

There is also a propaganda technique called "be so afraid of your opponents that you should believe anything that is anti-your opponent". It is called fear-mongering. It is surprisingly effective for the indecisive and those who give in to their fears.

By the fact that throughout my Wiki editing I have always wanted to discuss points before editing the main entry, unlike editors such as Happy In General who edits the main entry before discussing it on here, if at all, it should show you that I am not radicalized, not off-my-head, and want to be a true Misplaced Pages guardian. Those who think they are upholding democratic principles by justifying an alternative dictatorship (i.e. Li Hongzhi determines your life) are no less flawed themselves than those they criticize. Jsw663 (talk) 14:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• Especially in view of you calling me an hypocrite, please find my reply to you here. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've replied on your talk page too, Ohconfucius. Notice I'm still praising your overall efforts. I just have an issue with you insisting the Chinese government is fascist, much like those who call the US under Bush a dictatorship, not because I have an issue on these views on a personal level, but because they are personal (moral) judgments that cannot feature on a Wiki entry. Jsw663 (talk) 14:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• Fundamental difference is that Bush can be removed. In fact, he is now a lame duck, but he has done so much damage to the world economy and international relations that Republicans look sure to lose the White House. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Just like the Chinese leadership changes every now and then (is it also every two terms - except the terms are five years instead of four in China?). As you know the CCP/CPC isn't under a one-person dictatorship, just like the US isn't a true multi-party democracy (two parties is hardly representative of 300 million+ people's diverse views). Jsw663 (talk) 17:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

JSW, don't we already know your bias, do you really need to repeat it? --HappyInGeneral (talk) 17:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the arbitration committee found that I was a neutral and constructive editor. I have a huge bias in favor of Misplaced Pages rules on Misplaced Pages. What happened to your must-follow-Misplaced Pages-rules phase, HiG? Did it vanish after the arbitration? After you vanquished the other side, you imposed a FG propaganda leaflet to replace any consensus on the original entry, then tried to get it included in Misplaced Pages 1.0. I wonder why... Jsw663 (talk) 14:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Point to add for HiG: Labeling the Chinese government as fascist is like labeling the Falun Gong as a cult. That is what both sides accuse each other as. If we were to listen to one side in favor of another, that would be bias. So, I wonder who's being biased here once again??? Jsw663 (talk) 18:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

external links

Hi, I recently added links to Critical sites and Other sites section, why are they removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Majontomorrow (talk • contribs) 19:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This would be good to read through: WP:EL.--Asdfg12345 22:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I note with interest that WP:EL does say, in section 5, that entries must "Avoid undue weight on particular points of view", and that "the number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to other equal points of view". Just how much weight is 'undue weight' for FG-critical sites? And can FG critics' view be considered 'minority views'??? Jsw663 (talk) 15:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This article looks like a extension of falun gong/dafa website to me, there are way too many links dedicated to the pro-falun gong/dafa point of view. Thanks for creating this section, A. --Majontomorrow (talk) 18:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

There are now 4 links linking to Falun Gong websites, and 7 to critical websites. Can we share thoughts about whether that is an appropriate allotment for each? There were 4 of each before some anti-flg stuff was added.--Asdfg12345 03:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

So many links in References & Further reading sections are linked to either falun gong’s own websites or pro-falun gong articles. There should be more links in the critical section to provide a balance. I also believe that some links to Chinese government sites should be included, let people decide for themselves. --Majontomorrow (talk) 06:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

That isn't true at all. Let's look at what is there:

   * Ian Adams, Riley Adams and Rocco Galati, Power of the Wheel: The Falun Gong Revolution (Toronto: Stoddart Publishing, 2000) hard cover ISBN 0-7737-3270-5
   * Maria Hsia Chang, Falun Gong: The End of Days (New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press, 2004) ISBN 0-300-10227-5
   * Barend ter Haar, Falun Gong - Evaluation and Further References (incl. extensive bibliography)
   * Li Hongzhi, Falun Gong (Law Wheel qigong) (Yih Chyun, 1993)
   * Li Hongzhi, Essentials for Further Advancement (Yih Chyun, 2000?)
   * Danny Schechter, Falun Gong's Challenge to China (Akashic Books, 2000) hardback ISBN 1-888451-13-0, paperback ISBN 1-888451-27-0
   * Margaret Thaler Singer, Cults in Our Midst: The Continuing Fight Against Their Hidden Menace Revised edition. (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2003). ISBN 0-7879-6741-6
   * Mo Wen, Poisonous Deceit: How The Chinese Government Literally Gets Away With Murder By Lying Deceiving And Fabricating Its "evidence" Against Falun Gong: An Hbcu Story (Toronto: Deep Six, 2002) Paperback. ISBN 0-9731181-0-5

the first two are against Falun Gong, the third is neutral, there are two Dafa books, and a pro falun gong. the Singer is anti-falun gong. i just removed the wen.

Note that wikipedia is not a link dictionary. What links there are should be as good as possible. Having an amateur radio interview with Samuel Luo is not an authoritative source. I will remove that. Now there are even numbers of each critical and falun gong. and i removed the "other" entirely since only the Ottawa Citizen seemed very useful, but probably belongs more on the persecution page anyway. I think there are some goods one we could put here, such as Barend ter Haar's website on Falun Gong. The link to that is floating around somewhere.

It is unjustifiable to have more anti-falun gong links than falun gong ones. Right now there is absolutely no bias in the links.--Asdfg12345 08:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

by the way I just want to note something, partly in response to Jsw. You are going to have a tough time finding genuine academic credentials to back up any serious anti-Falun Gong stance. No China scholar I have read has taken an anti-Falun Gong line. The only true anti-Falun Gong stuff I've found are the anti cult movement and the CCP. Neither of these groups, nor their publications, are reliable sources. you can read about the history, and some critical commentary on the anti cult movement on the third party page. The charge that Falun Gong is a cult is indeed a minority view, and is definitely not endorsed by any experts. It's been thoroughly debunked. the only other anti-falun gong stuff floating around seems to come from positive scientists who attack any spiritual beliefs--see the Randi site linked there, for example. These commentaries often take a sarcastic tone, do not try to engage with the issues on their own terms, willfully distort the teachings, and mostly are a display of the writer's personal ideological paradigm. I don't say any of this should be excluded, but I am just making providing some background. The CCP site should not be linked here at all. Misplaced Pages doesn't promote violent political propaganda. It's a mistake to think that that would be letting the reader decide. The CCP's propaganda against Falun Gong is not considered as coming from a reliable source, and it is not repeated on wikipedia as though it were. We can provide commentary on the CCP's propaganda, but we do not become a vehicle for it. There's a very big difference. Most of the references, by the way, on this page and all the others, come from academic journals. You may not like it that they often condemn the CCP's actions against Falun Gong, and that they often don't say bad things about Falun Gong. This is a dead ringer. It will always be the minority that supports killing and torturing a group of peaceful meditators. --Asdfg12345 09:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Your claim is not true the first two books are not against Falun Gong. Maria Hsia Chang calls the crack down of the group a human rights violation how is that against falun gong? Out of seven links in Further reading section there is only one critical of falun gong. Very few people in the West support the crack down of falu gong, but many have questioned the practices and teachings of falu gong, this view has to be included in the article. The links I added all meet Wekipedia standards, you have no justification for removing them. You are preventing me from contributing to the article; you are rude. --Majontomorrow (talk) 18:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I apologise, I am really not trying to be rude. Chang's book says some appalling and awful things about Falun Gong. She attacks the teachings in that book; so does the Riley. Both of those are anti-Falun Gong. They are also against the persecution; but that goes without saying. I very much dislike getting involved in edit wars. I think that would only aggravate you further. I am sorry to have annoyed you. I have just tried to explain the situation as I see it. If you are aware of quality literature on Falun Gong that could be added to the Further Reading, that is fine. There isn't much written on Falun Gong generally, anyway. Indeed, if there is a lack of opinion on Falun Gong being so bad, that's because, as I said, it is a minority opinion. And it really is a minority opinion. I am not saying to exclude this, I am saying to treat it appropriately. At this stage I can see it is getting a bit tense, so I will back off. I really haven't meant to upset you or anything. I will request a mediation about this now.--Asdfg12345 22:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Asdfg, surely if a book attacks the crackdown of FG practitioners (anti-Chinese government) AND FG teachings (anti-FG), it should be deemed as 'balanced' or more 'neutral' rather than anti-FG? If so, you cannot count this source as being under the anti-FG section. Jsw663 (talk) 14:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

seeking other opinions about External links section

I'm just skimming through WP:DR, and instead of going for mediation first, it suggests that editors discuss the problem, and get an outside opinion. There aren't that many people involved in these pages now, but from experience I know getting a consensus on who editing the pages is the 'neutral' party is near impossible. Anyway, I am going to put a request for comment thing here, to try sort this out. First though, I will point out the areas of policy I am concerned with here:

• Nutshell: "Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article."
• Avoid undue weight on particular points of view: "On articles with multiple points of view, the number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to other equal points of view, nor give undue weight to minority views. Add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. If one point of view dominates informed opinion, that should be represented first."
• Links to be avoided: "Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research." -- note that the relevant part of the Reliable Sources page says "Websites and publications of political parties, religious groups, anti-religious groups, or any other partisan group, may exhibit bias and should be treated with caution."

I would like to explain my views here. Majon, thank you for pointing out that I have been rude. I will really try to cultivate a more considered tone, and I really do not want to be rude. Okay, Majon:

• The changes I made were to ensure that there were equal numbers of pro-Falun Gong and anti-Falun Gong links.
• You are wanting to include more critical links than Falun Gong links. Further, these are minority opinions, and some of them do not constitute reliable sources according to the policy cited above.
• You say that there should be more anti-Falun Gong links because a Falun Gong opinion is represented strongly in the "Further Reading" section.
• I say that that is not the case, that two of those authors express anti-Falun Gong views (and acknowledge that they are also anti-persecution). I also point out that the distribution of links etc. should basically accord with the majority opinions about this whole affair. And basically all academic sources (please see refs on persecution page, for example, there are numerous), say that the persecution is wrong and Falun Gong is innocent--just trying to present the most bare-bones account. There are other issues, like some authors disagree with and make negative remarks about Falun Gong's teachings. I am just talking broadly.
• I dispute having more links depicting anti-Falun Gong views, some of which are not reliable sources, and all of which are demonstrably minority opinions. All this violates wikipedia's policy on External Links, some parts of which I have highlighted above

I think I have pretty much addressed these issues above. Now open to comment. Also please note that I hate doing all this just for a few links, and it would have been much better if it could have been sorted out without resorting to all this. That is a bit disappointing.

• Comment: Asdfg, surely if a book attacks the crackdown of FG practitioners (anti-Chinese government) AND FG teachings (anti-FG), it should be deemed as "third party" rather than anti-FG? If so, you cannot count this source as being under the anti-FG section. Jsw663 (talk) 14:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A, you were rude in deleting my material but I applaud your new method here. By the way, are you a member of falun gong/dafa? --Majontomorrow (talk) 21:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• As I said earlier, I am sorry for deleting your material.
• These pages are always tense. I think there should be some policy of discussion before making big changes, or changes that people disagree with. Can anyone advise as to how we could institute something like that? Basically it's a courtesey anyway.
• sources that are against Falun Gong are against Falun Gong. Falun Gong and the persecution of Falun Gong are two different topics. We are talking about Falun Gong here. It is with reference to Falun Gong that the sources are being benchmarked, not with reference to the persecution of Falun Gong. If it were on the persecution page, then Chang might go in the 'for' section, and Jsw's latest treatise in the 'anti' section. These are distinctly different fields, and we are interested in their stance on Falun Gong, not on the persecution.
• Further, the position of calling Falun Gong a cult is not supported by reliable sources. This is what is called a minority view: "...an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views..." Basically this is a bit of a bind for people who hate Falun Gong's style of meditation and beliefs. These views are not supported by the mainstream, not by China scholars, the big newspapers, and other relevant experts. They are held by the minority, those on the fringe, and those without academic tenure. Generally speaking I think this is one shortcoming of wikipedia, actually, in many ways, since wikipedia merely reinforces mainstream views, and this will be inherently limiting in many ways. Though, in this case I think the mainstream has got it right. This means that these links, as minority views, should not be given undue weight.
• On another point, these would be more appropriate to go on the Third Party page anyway, since that's where Falun Gong is accused of being a cult. --Asdfg12345 22:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Asdfg, are you a member of falnu gong/dafa?--Majontomorrow (talk) 01:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Falun Dafa has no membership, nor am I required to answer any questions about my personal beliefs. But I don't want to be rude or anything--perhaps in time we will develop a friendly rapport wherein it would be appropriate for us to engage in a personal discussion about our respective spiritual, religious, metaphysical, atheistic, agnostic, or otherwise, beliefs about human life and the universe. I don't think it is relevant or appropriate here, and as editors we should just discuss these pages and the best way to edit them in terms of wikipedia policies. Let's take a leaf from Jsw's book, eh? --Asdfg12345 04:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• I do not believe that counting pro- and anti-FG links is necessarily the right solution to balance. On the whole, there is only one "pro-FG" source, and that is Falun Gong itself (and I deliberately include its plethora of front organisation). I am not counting Danny Schechter, who I consider an out and out FG apologist who merely regurgitates and is a vector for FG propaganda - I don't despise his opinion, but merely his style of "me too" journalism; he picks things from different sources which tend to corroborate a certain point of view, and then says "I think so too", or words to the effect of "I doubt Falun Gong would deny being involved in the incident if it was a genuine protest". Most other western journalists on the whole are sympathetic or neutral towards FG, and I believe Ian Johnson's articles are a good resource here, together with Barend van den Haar, and these should be linked to under the neutral category. Authoritative sources which I are "critical", such as Rick Ross and Margaret Singer, should also be linked to, as they represent a significant "anti-cultist" viewpoint, but I would agree with excluding Randi, who merely rants and offers no objective evidence. Then, the CCP and Xinhua machine are the only truly "anti-FG source", and should also be represented. However, there is no central CCP repository of Anti-FG web pages that I know of, so I would not know what to link to. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• I would also say that external links should be more general in nature, and are necessarily different to those linked as references. I found that there is a mish-mash of links which I do not believe belong here: for example, the article about China's crematorium is a reference for the organ harvesting article, and the link about hi-jacking the airwaves is more specific to the Persecution article and should be removed. I also have doubts about the other san francisco journals: these are articles with insufficient background to be valuable as general references. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• • I agree with you on “Inside China's 'crematorium'” and “Falun Gong hijacks China city's TV airwaves-locals.” But “Supes Support “Homophobic Cult”” and “Critics and followers of Falun Gong” should stay here. They each make an important point about the falun gong. --Majontomorrow (talk) 02:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• If they make an important point, as you suggest, their nature and length suggests that they be better off as references to statements which you could incorporate into the article if they are not there already, if they are, you could put them in as a footnote. I do not agree that they belong as external links. Ohconfucius (talk) 08:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The rickross.com article was a REUTERS one, and written by a journalist (Jeremy Page). This is sufficiently 3rd-party, is it not? How is it any more 'ranty' than any other reputable journalistic article? Are you questioning the journalistic standards of Reuters? I don't think any government has done that, yet you think it is not acceptable. If this is not a sign of your political inclinations getting the better of you, Ohconfucius, please tell me what you base your argument on!!! Jsw663 (talk) 18:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I fear you may be getting muddled, as this has absolutely zilch to do with my disdain for our "red" comrades. As I said in the article's talk page, I removed the link to the 'Falun Gong hijacks China city's TV airwaves' article because it was not directly relevant, nor do I consider the article sufficiently broadly based to be so linked. Furthermore, the subject of the links are dealt with in much greater depth in the Persecution article. The only ones I consider ranty are Danny Schechter and James Randi - after all, why cite them at all when you can cite what they say directly to Falun Gong and Xinhua respectively? ;-)Ohconfucius (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Asdfg12345, I am going to make two important points clear to you. First, there is an issue of conflict of interest for editing; second, the majority perception towards the nature of falun gong in the west is negative.

Misplaced Pages’s aim is to produce neutral articles that are encyclopedic; a biased editor is counter productive to this aim. A neutral article should provide all opinions available, in the case of falun gong that includes the views of the chiense government and those of falung gong and everything else in between. I asked you whether you are a member of falun gong because of your opinion towards falu gong critics and your editing style--you attack all sources critical of falnu gong and you remove links to critical material. Your apparent bias led me to believe that you are a member. Your declining to answer this simple question confirms my suspicion. I now suspect that you are designated by your leader to control this article, particularly by preventing the inclusion of critical material.

Wekipedia has strict policies on conflict of interest. COI editing is defined as “contributing to Misplaced Pages in order to promote your own interests or those of other individuals, companies, or groups.” Editors engage in COI editing can be blocked. I am not going to report you at this time but I will if you continue to remove critical material.

There are two main issues surrounding the Faln gong: the nature of the group and its crack down in China. In the west the majority perceive the ban as a violation of human rights. I call the ban illegal. However, when it comes to the nature of the group the majority perception has been negative. The overwhelming majority of books and reports on falun ogng teachings and practices have taken a negative tone as evidenced by books referenced in the article. Currently the article does not reflect this majority view. The article is inadequate in presenting the nature of falun gong, but worse, it actually reads like an extension of falun gong’s own website.

In order to produce neutral articles Wekipedia editors have to be neutral which means accepting all points of views. We can judge the quality and inclusion of material by Misplaced Pages standards. One feature of Misplaced Pages articles is to provide links to useful information, as it says here that “Misplaced Pages's articles provide links to guide the user to related pages with additional information.”

By the way, can anyone provide the link to the guide line for link adding?--Majontomorrow (talk) 23:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Majon, that is called an ad hominem argument. I'm not violating any COI, and I am absolutely free to edit here. I am a long term and productive editor of these pages, and I exercise great rigour in research and adherence to wikipedia policies. I explained the issue of those links with strict reference to the policies. Please do not lead this discussion off track. Please respond to the points I raised in terms of wikipedia policies. Aside from that, I think confucius's assessment is probably the most accurate anyway. (I think the link adding thing you want is this WP:EL.)--Asdfg12345 00:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the link. You said “Please respond to the points I raised in terms of wikipedia policies.” Did you raise any points? From what I see you only cited some polices. Are you trying to make the point that the links I added violate all those policies? --Majontomorrow (talk) 02:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• I do not believe that a lowly practitioner should be barred from editing any FG article, as there is no prohibition in WP:COI, which says "Closeness to a subject does not mean you're incapable of being neutral, but it may incline you towards some bias. which suggests this is being breached." The bit cited by Majon further above is certainly inapplicable, as I see it - we are not talking about Gail Rachlin, Abraham Halpern or Li Hongzhi editing the articles in question. Insisting on barring Asdfg is like saying that someone from America should be prohibited from editing an article about the United States of America. I have worked closely enough to know that despite his bias, he is serious in creating articles which adhere to wiki's policies and guidelines. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

** Although this COI point was raised and used by FG practitioners against editors like Samuel Luo and Tomananda et. al., the very same editors now tell Majontomorrow that this argument can be used. OK, to be fair this is an ad hominem argument and isn't strong enough on its own, but doesn't make it groundless. After all, all the FG editors accuse Samuel Luo etc. of being a Chinese government puppet and attack his 'characteristics' rather than actual arguments. Doesn't this appear strange to you? Jsw663 (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• • I was not there at the time, but I believe that Samuel Luo was actively seeking to advance his personal agenda agains FG, thus was violating WP:COI. That agenda can be attested to by his having created an anti-FG website off his own back and at his own expense, and then included text in articles and linked these to things he wrote himself. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

** Asdfg, by your reasoning we should distinguish critics into several categories, but this does not justify including more FG links for the hell of it, nor should we only include critical sources to which the Falun Gong (i.e. Li Hongzhi) has made an official reply to. Jsw663 (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

** Majon, I think you should know as a relatively neutral editor without strong political inclinations (at least not on Wiki so far from what I can gather from your comments) that Asdfg used to be a very destructive pro-FG (yes he is a FG member - read the history of this page if you have the time) person that almost risked being banned, but suddenly changed before the pro-FG members here launched an arbitration case against the anti-FG camp (Samuel Luo, Tomananda, etc.). After he eliminated the opposition, he has returned to some of his old ways (such as 100% intolerance of anything critical of FG), but at least he does not make personal attacks or rampant violations of the 3RR rule (reverting the main entry constantly), massive sockpuppetry (no investigation conducted to prove or disprove this point yet), etc. However, Asdfg wasn't punished in the arbitration case because he was deemed to have 'turned over a new leaf'. The pro-FG camp have tried many dirty tactics such as the "Persecution of FG" page, which used to be the "Suppression of FG" entry, but took advantage of any neutrals being away after eliminating the anti-FG camp to get the resolution passed, and thus the entry changed. The word 'persecution' was under dispute before, as it was judgmental and subjective. After all, would ex-FG members who were pressured not to leave the group be labelled 'tortured'? I'd advise you to be careful as Asdfg and the pro-FG gang will hurl plenty of labels at you as being anti-FG or whatever in order for you to 'shift' your neutrality to being biased in favor of FG. Don't fall into this trap. Jsw663 (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

** As noted on the discussion page there, I also dispute that the article was properly renamed 'Persecution of FG', as there does not appear to have been a proper consensus. Yes the article is biased, as I for one tolerated quite a bit of latitude to include stuff which is in spirit mere C&P from FG material. Especially, I believe the torture bits read like the placards and leaflets put out by FG, and should be removed wholescale. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

** Once again, no matter how many times you (Asdfg and the other pro-FGers) try to label me anti-FG, or what I say as a 'tirade', my position has remained neutral and not remotely in favor of the Chinese government (i.e. not a departure from the neutral to the pro-CCP/CPC side). Requesting the Chinese government not be officially labeled as fascist is just like the UN wouldn't label the country as fascist, or the US a dictatorship, or the Falun Gong a cult. I wish there was someone to take up the Chinese government side to give arguments more balanced, but naturally it is in the interest of Falun Gong to see all these users banned rather than reason with them. Jsw663 (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

** One point to add, by Ohconfucius stating that 'lowly practitioners' should not be barred from editing FG, is he implying that there's an hierarchy within the FG, and that members above a certain 'rank' shouldn't be allowed to edit? Jsw663 (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

** Although FG claims not to be "an organisation", it clearly has an organisation AFAICT, there are many "indians" and only one "chief", but the chief does appear to have his entourage. Those persons I named would clearly be conflicted out as official representatives of FG. Then, there are all the others. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

To Jsw,it is forthesakeof here, a new name here as the previous password was lost. seems you are still arguing against the fascism name of ccp. please remember, we are not talking about communism and fascism here, which you claimed that i failed to understand the difference,but in fact we are talking fascism and ccp. few would disagree that "little remains of the Marxism of Communist China", are you trying to vague two different issues? there is indeed a book "A Place in the Sun: Marxism and Fascism in China's Long Revolution" by A James Gregor, whose introduction is available in wiki. and in this book, ccp is classified as contemporary fascist. hope you will feel interested. by the way, i am not going to suspect your goodness to be wiki guardian, but from the question you put, it is quite clear you are not familiar with Falun gong at all,all your understanding about Falun Gong comes from media or other sources except from Falun Gong books themselves.I would recommend you to gain at least some genuine knowledge of Falun Gong's teaching,as I believe you also agree that the lack of genuine knowledge will hinder the competence to be a neutral editor. and thank you to remind me the so called propaganda skill "be so afraid of your opponents that you should believe anything that is anti-your opponent",and i would like to share similar tactics "under the name of neutrality to deny any sound critics ".Betrueman (talk) 22:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC) 22:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources about CCP & the ban vs. persecution

Regarding this revert made by Ohconfucius.

1. Could you please tell me which sources say that China banned Falun Gong? When in fact Falun Gong was banned by the Communist Party of China? The ban can not be done by country, you do need an organization to do it.
2. Could you please tell me why are you referring to the ongoing persecution as a mere ban?

--HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• You may feel there are great injustices done to FG, but there are rules to fair editing here on wikipedia which we are obliged to follow. If a source which is footnoted employs a generally accepted term "crackdown", then I don't expect to see "persecution" or "genocide" there. When the source uses a disputed label, I expect the label to be attributed. I have meticulously checked each occurrence against the sources, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't introduce your subjective bias just because you feel indignant about the Chinese authorities' treatment of FG. To answer your question, the source I was looking at is this, which is in fact already an in-line reference to the article. Ohconfucius (talk) 16:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it could be quoted? "China today banned the Research Society of Falun Dafa and the Falun Gong organization under its control after deeming them to be illegal." I'm not sure. I agree with confucius about using what the source says--this seems to be the best approach. However, this is part of the propaganda, that "China" "banned" Falun Gong. It creates the impression that the CCP is China, and that all Chinese wanted Falun Gong banned. Of course, the opposites are true. Maybe we could use a different source, or make clear that we are explaining the government line. We can't exclude the CCP propaganda entirely, but it also has to be clear when the CCP line is being given, when the Falun Gong line is being given, and then what more-or-less neutral people like China scholars etc., are giving their line.--Asdfg12345 00:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• I know China is a one-party dictatorship, so 'China' is in many ways synonymous with the Communist Party. I do have a problem with a statement to the effect that the CCP banned FG; on the other hand, I would not have a problem if the article stated the Chinese authorities banned FG, as this is technically and legally more correct construction. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:30, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow--why can't the CCP have banned Falun Gong? And isn't that what they did, as well as some other nasty things? --Asdfg12345 21:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Majontomorrow is a sockpuppet of Samuel Luo

See Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser#Samuel_Luo. He's risen from the crypt once again, we need more silver bullets! ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 14:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This should be yet another lesson for all editors of these pages.--Asdfg12345 21:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

When to use Chinese Communist Party or Chinese authorities or Chinese government?

I noticed that there are a lot of cases when Chinese Communist Party is renamed to Chinese authorities or Chinese government. I believe that this is an act of hiding the real identity of the Chinese government which in the context of the pages of Falun Gong is the one who persecutes the practice. From this point of view I believe that it is important to show who the real culprit is. In China the government is run by a single entity and that is Chinese Communist Party.

When we say Chinese Communist Party for many people is already clear that this is a Communist rule, which explains a lot about the extent and validity of the propaganda used by it, the values of Human Rights under it's rule and the persecution of Falun Gong itself.

I noticed that the Chinese propaganda is trying to hide the fact that the current government is Communist. And the edits of PCPP for example resemble the same thing.

I think we should have a discussion to decide some guidelines on where to use Chinese Communist Party or Chinese authorities or Chinese government.

For example I would feel important to have at least the first time specify that it is the Chinese Communist Party who is doing all this. Then we can refer to it as Chinese authorities or Chinese government to avoid repetition. What do you think?

Thank You. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 12:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I basically see this as a weasel change, intentionally or unintentionally. Mainly we should go with what the source says, in the end, though, to avoid difficulties. In the end, it is clearly the communist party that is being referred to, and that definitely shouldn't be avoided. I don't think we should be using "CCP" because it implies various things about its style of rule re human rights and values. I think we should be using it because it's the most accurate. I think it's good to mix it up though, too. Mostly, saying 'the party', or 'the regime' or whatever seems to work. I'm really wary of this kind of apologism that seeks to hide things about the key actor, using terms like 'China' or 'PRC government'. It is not a 'government' in the way that term is generally understood. It's essentially a dictatorship. There's no rule of law, no enshrinement of any individual rights, property rights, human rights, basically there's no law except the CCP's law, and the CCP is accountable to no one in China. And I'm not just being negative on the CCP, as far as I understand that's simply the objective state of affairs. We shouldn't use terms that cover this up. But if a source says one thing, we should mostly stikc with that i think, and we should also mix it up sometimes. These are just my thoughts--Asdfg12345 10:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

C&P of my comments from above: "I know China is a one-party dictatorship, so 'China' is in many ways synonymous with the Communist Party. I do have a problem with a statement to the effect that the CCP banned FG; on the other hand, I would not have a problem if the article stated the Chinese authorities banned FG, as this is technically and legally more correct construction." We should just stick to the sources and try and leave aside any personal feelings about the matter. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Ohconfucius here. From a NPOV, the Chinese Communist Party holds a monopoly on political power in China and is thus commonly treated as synonymous with "the Chinese authorities" or "the Chinese government" or "Beijing." This does not constitute an apology for the CCP, unless one considers the term "Communist" or the CCP to be pejorative in and of itself. Loungecreature (talk) 05:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Whether you like it or not, the CCP is considered to be the legitimate government of China, according to thr rules of state sovereignity and the UN. Referring to the Chinese government as the CCP implies that they're not the legitimate government, which is a weasel word used by Epoch Times and their ilk.--PCPP (talk) 07:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Christmas Day edits

I strongly disagree with the edits which you practitioners have been making of late. Firstly, totally disagree with Dilip rajeev's removal of the direct quote of the enunciation of the ban, which i believe is pretty central to the whole FG story. It certainly is not in the summary section, nor is it undue. I'm just going to revert that. As far as the lead section is concerned, I have a mild problem with referring to K&M as "high profile Canadian lawyers". They enjoy a higher profile than ordinary Canadian lawyers by being parliamentarians, and elevated that profile by launching and publicising Bloody Harvest, so I believe the initial description is more appropriate. As for removing "Since that time, Falun Gong has made itself the focus of international attention by lobbying Governments, and international human rights organizations. Some of these, including scholars, consider the ban a human rights violation:" and replacing it with "Within mainland China, in an attempt by the Party to eradicate their beliefs, practitioners are publicly vilified, fired from their jobs, and subject to widespread torture in custody, beatings, illegal imprisonment, psychiatric abuses, and forced labor terms" in the lead section, it takes two big paces away from WP:NPOV, IMHO. Ohconfucius (talk) 16:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

It's fine to just call them Canadian lawyers. I wasn't trying to make a fuss of their status. It was wrong in the first place though, calling them parliamentarians. Kilgour was a former parliamentarian, and that's it. I thought this attempted to give them greater cred, and that I was being more neutral. I haven't tried to do anything dodgy. I didn't like the "brought attention to themselves" or whatever, since the persecution is pretty darn noteworthy in and of itself. I don't think there's an issue mentioning that Falun Gong lobbies governments and things. I deleted the 'considers the ban a human rights violation', I mean, it's just wasted words. It's noteworthy that Falun Gong stages protests and pickets embassies and the works, but of course the 'ban' is considered a human rights violation; nor is the simple ban what the whole fuss is about. If falun gong were merely 'banned', I really don't think all this would have happened. Practitioners are intensively persecuted in China. The CCP has spent billions upon billions paying people to rat on Falun Gong, building labour camps, giving bonuses, employing more cops, you name it. The whole society was turned on these people. The description of the persecution is accurate, and importantly, reflects what third party sources have said about it. It is an attempt to wipe our the practice, that is widely known, and the methods employed to do so are also widely known and reported. That isn't biased. If we wrote "the persecution is evil and Falun Gong is really handling it well", that could be considered biased. Simply describing the objective events without giving value judgements is fine. I don't mind the Xinhua quote being there in its entirety, now that you explain it. I didn't actually get it. You are right, that it is precisely an important piece of information, and something of a centrepiece to the campaign. My initial objection came from the thought that it is giving too much weight (a whole block quote, where none exist from Falun Gong) to one viewpoint. Incidentally, it may be useful to provide some commentary on the persecution from the famous Li Hongzhi, since at the beginning he said some things about it. However, this really can't go into a falun gong vs CCP display, so this may need to be handled carefully. There is also the issue that all viewpoints be represented, and the fact the Li Hongzhi said on several ocassions that flg isn't against the government, has no political agenda, and that if he or practitioners have done anything wrong, dialogue is welcomed to figure out how flg can improve. It's very transparent. I also don't think there is much value in saying "you practitioners" like that. I would like to empathise with any possible frustration though. I'm not here saying "you non-practitioners", or drawing attention to any other facet of your personal life. I think that AGF rule is a profound one, we should try to apply it, I reckon.--Asdfg12345 00:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I think either lawyer or former parliamentarian would be OK, I just didn't like the "high-profile" tag, which I think is a bit non-NPOV. Oh, why isn't FG an illegal organisation, as categorised? There's nothing inaccurate about it, as it is indeed proscribed at home. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not an organisation, for starters. Also, I think this editor is a CCP agent--no joke. I expect in the leadup to the Olympics we'll face this kind of thing more. With 30 000 cyberagents, surely they can spare a couple to go stir up trouble on the english wiki, no doubt about it.--Asdfg12345 15:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Who did u think is a CCP agent? I added the category. I was looking for a suitable category, and the best i could find was Category:Illegal organizations. Ya, maybe FG doesnt accurately fit into that cat. But i just thought that there should be a cat listing orgs or sect or anything like FG that has been outlawed the host country or any other country. hmm. kawaputra 17:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

There might be a category like "persecuted minority groups" or "persecuted religious groups" or something, which would be more appropriate. If there isn't the should be, come to think of it. Look at this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Falun_Gong&diff=next&oldid=180254401, "This is, of course, akin to the disgraceful Dalai Lama, himself a torturer and a liar, using human rights slogans in order to regain his throne of death." -- this is a very peculiar way to edit. You might read this about Chen Yonglin who defected from the Chinese consulate in Sydney. His job was to monitor Falun Gong activities, and he came out with bundles of documents of the overseas persecution of Falun Gong, and info about 1000 spies operating in Australia, spying on FLG and other dissident groups. The Chinese govt is not normal.--Asdfg12345 22:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I found Category:Religious persecution. The Chinese govt reminds me abit of my govt, but maybe they're not as aggresive as CCP. However i dont think we are in any position to conclude that FG is totally innocent. Or painting a picture that FG is a harmless group that has been outlawed by the govt for no valid reason. This sounds a bit POV. Unless we know this for sure. But how can we know this for sure? kawaputra 04:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a big topic, I would recommend you read through the persecution of Falun Gong page to get an idea of what has happened to Falun Gong in China, and the reasons behind it. There are certainly reasons for it. That is a balanced account of what has happened, nearly all of that info comes from third party sources like human rights groups and China scholars. Falun Gong is a qigong practice with some spiritual beliefs. If you read that page and would like to discuss further I would be welcome to chat on talk page or something.--Asdfg12345 05:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Will read that page soon. Looks pretty brutal. Thanks. kawaputra 10:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

We don't need any FLG soapboxing here, currently the articles are disgustingly pro-FLG. We have sources which guesses Jiang Zemin's "nature"; if this happened to Li Hongzhi, it would probably have been removed straight away by FLG editors. Practising FLG doesn't automatically makes you a China expert.--PCPP (talk) 07:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean the opposite. If you are from the PRC, a place that trains people to avoid this subject like taboo. Then the article will appear very pro-FG. However, by international standard this article is extremely fair. Benjwong (talk) 15:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Falun Dafa fundraising and influence abroad

The New York free daily paper The Epoch Times is related to the Falun Dafa movement, possibly owned by it. Allthough Falun Gong is a personal discipline, clearly some overarching organization of Falun Dafa disciples exists. Falun Dafa is also involved in the production of cultural performances, and outdoor events in public spaces aimed at getting income for their cause. Spqrxxi (talk) 15:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It's no secret that many Epoch Times employees are practitioners, but the Epoch Times is first and foremost a professional media outlet that focuses on the persecution of dissidents in China - among other things. Is it very surprising to you that persecuted, innocent people are prone to become quite outspoken? Moreover, how could "the Falun Dafa movement" - which is essentially a network of private individuals without any overarching financial or organizational backbone - own something like a newspaper? What we're seeing here are loosely intertwined groups of people who share a similar interest (they practice Falun Dafa and want to stop the persecution in China). They usually work locally, even though the network of practitioners is multinational and extends around the world. But person A in Taiwan might not have anything to do with person B in Romania. You simply cannot find an organizational link between them; you can't go up any kind of hierarchy to find their superior, because everybody's working out of their own initiative, and there are no leaders or subordinates. In addition, would you please specify: what kind of Falun Dafa outdoor events are aimed at getting income? Such things don't exist at all. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 01:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

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