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This article was nominated for deletion on 2008-01-17. The result of the discussion was nomination withdrawn.

History merge

I have deleted this again to perform a history merge, I am now watiting for the server to catch up before restoring content. Woody (talk) 14:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, done now.Woody (talk) 14:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate article

British Airways flight 038 which I created with the correct flight number duplicates this article. As this article was started first (I did search under the correct flight number) and has more material, could someone merge/redirect/retitle etc? There is a link from Wikinews to the article I created, so needs attending to. Mjroots (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the Aviation accident task force the correct name for this article is British Airways flight BA38. I have redirected British Airways flight 038 to here. I have not performed a history merge as there was no cut and paste/ merging neccessary. Woody (talk) 15:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Woody. No problem, just no point in having two articles on same thing. Now, how do I add the construction number (Construction number=30314/342) to the infobox?Mjroots (talk) 15:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we consider the discussion over deletion settled, then? That way, I can remove the AfD tag. Quanticle (talk) 15:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The AfD had nothing to do with the article naming, it related to the notability of the incident - however the AfD has been withdrawn anyway. Halsteadk (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I did the same thing. User:Edward quickly did a merge & redirect :-) Astronaut (talk) 15:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm considering the discussion about deletion settled, then, and am removing the deletion tag —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quanticle (talk • contribs) 15:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have readded the tag. The afd has not yet been closed, and has not been open long enough to reach a consensus. Please don't remove the tag until the afd has been closed by an uninvolved party. Woody (talk) 15:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I know these things need to be closed by an uninvolved party, but what is the criteria for closing? There are 15 keeps to two deletes. Is there a timeframe involved? --Daysleeper47 (talk) 16:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

A speedy keep can take place at any time per WP:SNOW, but it has to be done by an admin that is uninvolved in the article itself. -- Roleplayer (talk) 16:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Just make sure the flight number is correct. It looks like "BA038" is the shortened form to "British Airways 038". This is similar notation to United Airlines 175 shortened to UA175. KyuuA4 (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

This seems to have got lost in the text above:-

• How do I add the construction number to the infobox? (Construction number=30314/342)Mjroots (talk) 16:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Per the template documentation, I don't think there is a parameter for that yet. Woody (talk) 17:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Added info to text. Mjroots (talk) 17:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The database link from the tail number is broken. Last update of airdisaster.com was in last September. Is it defunct? --213.155.231.26 (talk) 17:36, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

changed to a link that works Mjroots (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

BA38/BA038

BAA, BA and now the BBC are all saying it is "BA038". This does not appear to clash with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Aviation/Aviation_accident_task_force contrary to an above post, so I think it would be appropriate to move this back to British Airways Flight BA038. Halsteadk (talk) 17:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I was commenting on British Airways flight 038. Please notice the lack of "BA". I think BA038 is correct and am willing to move it, if other people agree. Woody (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, apologies! Re-edited my other comment in the section above. If BAA and BA say it is BA038 then that's what it is, over and above what the BBC originally called it. Halsteadk (talk) 17:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It was called that in the very fresh chaos surrounding the initial breaking news. There were 4 articles created and the page had to be merged a couple of times using deletion. It will be no problem to move it, just need a bit more of a consensus. Woody (talk) 17:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Support Hope doing that won't cause problems as there already has been an article with that title. Mjroots (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I always thought it was BA038. That is common usage by BA and most airports that I've visited. Astronaut (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It's British Airways Flight 38 as a title, otherwise all the other articles in wikipedia will have to be changed to conform, like "American Airlines Flight AA587" and while we're at it, why not start using ICAO codes as well as IATA codes, so British Airways flight BAW038 and British Airways BAW038 and British Airways BAW38 and British Airways flight BAW38 and then we can start using British Airways former name BOAC and the British tagline it used in the 1980s and slogans too, so "The world's favourite airline flight 38" and "the worlds favourite airline flight BA038"....

You get my point. Stick with convention for the actual title, as discussed previously, and feel free to make as many redirects to this as you like. It saves arguments and ensures it is in keeping with the existing system.

--150.237.47.14 (talk) 19:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No need to sarcastic like that. I was simply stating what I thought the "convention" was, based on my experience as a frequent traveller. Astronaut (talk) 00:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

My sarcasm was not aimed at you, it was aimed at everyone (I don't discriminate) who didn't note the earlier posting within this page about convention on Misplaced Pages regarding the naming of these articles. They even (thoughtfully) provided a link. 150.237.47.14 (talk) 14:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Does this mean that the Flight numbers listed with leading 0s on the List of notable accidents and incidents on commercial aircraft are incorrect? Ff.eternal (talk) 00:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It does not really matter, 38 is the same as 038. Airports and others use the zero because it makes their electronic displays and pages look good. Just because other articles use the zero then that is not reason to change this one. In wikipedia British Airways Flight BA038 and other variants all link to this page. But note the aircraft callsign is Speedbird 38 not Speedbird 038 good enough reason to leave it alone. MilborneOne (talk) 00:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand, I'm just trying to help make the article as accurate as possible for the benefit of others. I realise that they are the same and to conform with other articles I've reverted the flight numbers back to 38. Just curious but would it be better to have links to articles written the same as the title of the article that's being linked to? Ff.eternal (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion...

Hello,

I noticed that this article had been proposed for deletion. I see it has now been withdrawn.

If this article is disputed again, may I say that it is welcome at http://plane.spottingworld.com, a wiki for articles jsut like this! Also, if there is info that people want to add that Misplaced Pages don't allow, feel free to add it here.

Thanks,

Bluegoblin7 18:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Reading the initial proposal of that AfD, the person needs to look at JetBlue Airways Flight 292, which was just a landing gear failure caught by the American news media. KyuuA4 (talk) 20:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point. Anyway, I just though i'd mention it, and this is NOT advertising! Just being helpful!

Bluegoblin7 20:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I tried to AFD that article when it was on ITN :-) I learned NEVER to try and AFD articles that are currently getting lots of news coverage. You'll never get them deleted. Evil Monkey - Hello 00:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Please, skepticism might be particularly helpful regarding < http://spottingworld.com >.

Thank You,

] 03:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Pertinent Fact

It would be interesting to know if the flight time was significantly longer than scheduled —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.171.254.65 (talk) 20:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Reported on Pprune that flight was 20 mins early - thus making fuel exhaustion even less likely.Mjroots (talk) 12:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Page Moves

If anyone objects to the naming of this article, please use the WP:RM process. I have had to perform 4 page history merges today. PLEASE read WP:CUTPASTE before improperly moving this page. Thankyou. Woody (talk) 23:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

references

Having to post this again!

2 refs (#7 & #8) have been turned into interwiki links that do not reference the material used in the article. Can someone fix this please? 23:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. The problem was that the "title" field in {{cite news}} shouldn't be a wiki link (NB. "interwiki" means a link to a different Wikimedia project, e.g. the French Misplaced Pages), as it becomes the text of the external link.

Incidentally, I don't regard those as particularly helpful links anyway--if they linked to a particular story containing the expert quotes, that would be better, but they only link to the homepages of those news programmes. --RFBailey (talk) 23:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I put the ITV Early Evening News and Newsnight in. They are broadcast news reports. I made a silly error linking on the title field. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 00:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Format of references

I recently removed all the breaks and whitespaces from the references in the lead section of the article, as I felt that they didn't improve the readability and editability (is that a word?) of the text. I just received a message from Daytona2 (talk · contribs), who said: "I think that you've made the edit code harder to read by unformating the inline citation templates and blurring the distinction between text and code." How do others feel about this? Aecis 01:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally prefer the white space, as long as it doesn't make any difference to how the text is displayed. It does make the format appear much clearer. -- Roleplayer (talk) 01:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Roleplayer here, the white space does make the code easier to edit and especially easier for 'newbies' to reuse IMHO Nil Einne (talk) 08:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Piano Keys?

The article mentions "piano keys" on the runway. Is this the same as the white threshold markings? If so, "piano keys" should link to Runway and runway should define that phrase. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 02:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Runway threshold markings are known as piano keys in aviation slang. Mjroots (talk) 08:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure ? I'm not and I added the phrase <g> ! -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 11:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

METAR

The METAR in force at the time of the accident was:- EGLL 171220Z 21014KT 180V240 9999 SCT008 BKN010 09/08 Q0997 TEMPO 21018G28KT 4000 RADZ BKN008

• EGLL = London Heathrow Airport
• 171220Z = Issued on the 17th day of the month at 1220 UTC/GMT
• 21014kt = Wind from 210deg at 14 knots
• 180V240 = wind direction variable from 180 to 240 degrees
• 9999 = visibility in excess of 10km
• SCT008 = scattered clouds (3/8 to 4/8 of sky covered) at 800 feet
• BKN010 = broken clouds (5/8 to 7/8 of sky covered) at 1000 feet
• 09/08 = temperature 9C, dew point 8C
• Q0997 = QNH 997mb
• TEMPO = Temporary changes
• 21018G28KT = wind from 210 degrees at 18kts, gusting to 28kts
• 4000 = visibility reducing to 4000 metres
• RADZ = rain and drizzle
• BKN008 = broken clouds at 800 feet

The above would read:-

"METAR - London Heathrow on 17th January at 1220 zulu (UTC/GMT), wind 210 degrees at 14 knots, variable 180 to 240 degrees. Visibility greater than 10 kilometres. Cloud, scattered 800 feet and broken at 1000 feet. Temperature 9 degrees celsius, Dewpoint 8 degrees celsius. Temporarily - wind 210 degress at 18 knots, gusting 28 knots with visibility reducing to 4000 metres in rain, drizzle and broken cloud at 800 feet." Kiwi Kousin (talk) 19:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This info is published by a reliable source (BAA Heathrow) although it was reposted on a discussion thread in Pprune, which genreally cannot be taken as a reliable source. Although this particular piece of info can be taken as being reliable. Mjroots (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Good info, thanks. I haven't been able to get on to PPRuNe at all - server too busy :-( -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 10:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't get into Pprune at all yesterday. Looking at the thread, there were over 7,000 on Pprune at one point.Mjroots (talk) 11:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Could this information be added to a sub page to be linked to from the reference, rather than asking for users to plough through this huge talk page to find it? It's very useful. -- Roleplayer (talk) 13:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done linked from ref at bottom of article. Mjroots (talk) 15:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Cool. -- Roleplayer (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Out of fuel?

Did the aircraft run out of fuel? CarbonLifeForm (talk) 13:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There are no reports to confirm this, and as has been pointed out above the flight was 20 minutes early so fuel was unlikely to be the issue. -- Roleplayer (talk) 13:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Most likely cause would seem to lie with the avionics. Windshear, bird strike and lack of fuel have not been tuled out yet, terrorism has. Hopefully we'll know more once the AAIB reports tomorrow. Mjroots (talk) 13:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

A comparison on Pprune is being made to this incident. Not that I'm saying that it was or wasn't the cause in this case.Mjroots (talk) 14:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Just given out on News24 - preliminary AAIB report will say that both engines faild on approach. Mjroots (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Initial report released, info added to article. Mjroots (talk) 17:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

A/c did not run out of fuel - see 'No thrust' on stricken BA plane story in refs. Mjroots (talk) 19:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a dog's dinner

The spacing cuased by using those socking great inverted commas around the quotations looks dreadful. 81.129.129.124 (talk) 09:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

At least it's clear that they are quotations. Much easier to format that way than indent & italics every paragraph! Mjroots (talk) 09:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That was my thinking when I replaced them. As ever on WP, feel free to play around with them. There are other quotation tools. I'll reduce the quotation mark size. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 11:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have prosified it because there were so many duplicate and outdated statements. There was no need for all the statements. Woody (talk) 14:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statements (Merged topics)

Whoever it was that fiddled with all the statements has managed to lose the link to Willie Walsh's statement. Going back through the history I got but can't seem to make it work :/. Mjroots (talk) 15:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Link changed to website that has the statement by WW. Mjroots (talk) 15:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The link seems to have turned into a deadlink, you seem to have fixed that. I converted the statements because as stated above, "it looked like a dogs dinner". Woody (talk) 15:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

• Oppose the merging of information into text and removing the statements. Statements were much better as they had been revised with the small quotes. It was easy to see which statement was which, and who had made it. The way it is now is a mess! Mjroots (talk) 16:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Given that I am the one that has prosified the text, I think it is better this way. Whilst the prose isn't perfect, it can be edited. As it was though, Two-thirds of this article were a {{quotefarm}} which is not what an encyclopedia should be. An encyclopedia should be a summary of the most accurate, verifiable information available. As it was, most of the statements had little long-term relevance, especially the ambulance one and the initial BA statement beyond the fact that there was an incident. Willie Walsh's statement was of little use as well, it gave the number of casualties at "three". Yet, his praising of the pilots and crw is noteworthy and has been included. The statements are just knee-jerk reactions, in the long-term, they will be redundant to any AAIB report. Woody (talk) 16:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, how about having a subpage (like the METAR one) for the statements to be posted on in their revised (small quotes) form, and merging the info as suggested.Mjroots (talk) 16:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Burkill or Birkhill?

Which is the correct spelling of the captain's name? Mjroots (talk) 17:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Birkill per BBC1 6pm news. - CarbonLifeForm (talk) 18:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

AAIB Initial Report released

-- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 18:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

missing redirects

This article is missing some redirects

• G-YMMM - tail number
• BA038 - IATA code/flight number
• BAW038 - ICAO code/flight number
• Speedbird 38 - callsign/flight number

- 132.205.44.5 (talk) 19:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Check the policy before doing so Misplaced Pages:Redirect -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 19:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It's there. Didn't you see them? alternate name and abbreviation

Ofcourse G-YMMM is the name of the aircraft involved... which is not an alternate name or abbreviation for the flight, but is the primary topic of the article (incident involving aircraft G-YMMM on landing at Heathrow, while on duty as conveyance assigned to BA038)

It's why KAL007 and TWA800 exist. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 20:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

G-YMMM is the registration of the aircraft. G- denotes it is registered in the UK, and YMMM is the actual UK registration - much the same as AB01CDE is a car registration. All aircraft take their identity from their construction number (c/n), which almost never changes, unlike a registration, which can change several times during the life of an aircraft. Mjroots (talk) 21:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It is however, the registration number at the time of the crash. Just as there are other BA038 flights, with other planes, but this particular flight on this particular day with this particular plane crashed. And the tail number is featured in some news coverage. 132.205.44.5 (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The only one of those that has any merit is BA038, but I'd suggest leaving it for now. Once there is widespread use of BA038 in the media that is the time to create the redirect.Mjroots (talk) 21:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

General comments on article content and development

Speaking for myself, I view articles such as this differently to that of the WP guidelines and policies. Due to WP having such a high ranking in search engines I feel that it's initial role in an incident such as this is to provide information to friends and relatives of those involved rather than to offer encyclopedic content. Once the need for such information has reduced, as I believe is the case now, it can be converted into an encyclopedic article by summarising the Air Accidents Investigation Branch findings.

I added the quotes from all the major parties that people would expect to issue statements and would want to read. It is right and proper that they are now removed as many of them are unhelpful public relations speak, but needed to be included for completeness. The only information worth quoting now, is insightful information from the crew, the manufacturers or the AAIB.

A useful article describing the transformation of such articles is Misplaced Pages:Recentism. It may well be that the article in it's final form requires only a few paragraphs. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I started that process yesterday, when the article was just a few hours old - changing all the language from present tense to past tense. -- Roleplayer (talk) 02:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Some factual queries...

Apparently the plane passed 6 metres over the A30. Does anyone local have the height of the streetlights there? I seem to remember they are rather close to that height!

Also, apparently the PM was waiting for his flight in the airport while passsing the end of the runway. I wasn't there, but it can't be both!

Number774 (talk) 23:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have driven down the A30 on the perimeter of the airport and the street lights are extremely low there, though I can't give an exact height. I don't understand the second query - yes Gordon Brown's flight was delayed as a result of the incident. Where's the confusion? -- Roleplayer (talk) 01:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The plane passed approximately 6 metres (25 ft) above passing cars on the A30 road (Southern Perimeter), including the car of the prime minister, Gordon Brown, Later on it says that he was delayed on his plane... There is the confusion. Woody (talk) 01:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah I see what you mean now. What we have is two verifiable references stating two completely different versions of events. Given the confusion of reports in the early hours of any disaster, I'm going to go with the most recent, that he was in his car at the time. -- Roleplayer (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The article says that Gordon Brown was on a flight to both India & China? How can this be possible & also the references for that sentence only suggest he was going to China (or at least he was going there first). "Gordon Brown was on his way to Heathrow for a flight to China and India at the time." My suggestion would just be to mention China. Ajn91 (talk) 12:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that Gordon Brown being at the airport is not really notable, he was just one of thousands of others at the airport who were delayed. It would only be notable if somebody had an article on Gordon Browns trip to China!. MilborneOne (talk) 12:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Peter Burkill, Alfred C. Haynes

This morning, on bbcamerica I saw this airplane. Later, on there, & cnn, I'd heard that there had been no deaths, no particular injuries.

&, I heard, most of the people had not known that they had crashed until they had been told to evacuate. Several of the thoughts I'd had were of the ways to honor such a pilot. The article should make it very clear what that video showed of the wings.

Someone on this page has been promoting < http://plane.spottingworld.com >.

On < http://plane.spottingworld.com/Talk:Main_Page > is advertizing for wikipedia encyclopedia; but, however, it links to something else, whatever.

This should not occur; this must be stopped: fraud.

Thank You,

] 02:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually their link is to wikinews, not Misplaced Pages. -- Roleplayer (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, "actual", maybe each ip gets a variation; I've spent a lot of time checking:

This is what is under the word "wikipedia" in the version that I get: < http://try.alottoolbars.com/tb/reference/reference_dictionary.php?aff_id=googlefour >.

That is deception, period.

] 02:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no deception on the part of wikipedia. Misplaced Pages is not directly involved with that site and we cannot control what they put on their page. Woody (talk) 02:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, nothing has meaning,... If that's policy,...

] 02:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There's an extremely high probability that the plane was out of fuel.

"Reported on Pprune that flight was 20 mins early - thus making fuel exhaustion even less likely" FYI: the fact that the plane landed 20 minutes early in no way absolves the possibility that the plane ran out of fuel. On a flight that long, the aircraft could have likely encountered a weather system requiring higher power settings to ascend, maintain airspeed, etc. Delays are costly to airlines. Airlines also do not like to have their aircraft carry large quantities of excess fuel as it increases fuel consumption. The odds of two Rolls Royce jet engines (or any two jet engines, for that matter) failing simultaneously are astronomical. Also, an investigator noted "significant" fuel leakage from the aircraft. The plane could have been "out" of fuel but still had a significant amount of fuel, possible hundreds of gallons, sloshing around inside of the tanks. (a 777 holds 45,220 gallons of fuel) If the plane crash landed with the required reserve amount of fuel on board, the fuel leakage would have been enormous, not "significant". I would be shocked to find the investigation conclude any outcome besides fuel shortage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.129.70 (talk) 07:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand... there were no reports that the plane had gone through any bad weather etc. Therefore I would guess (which is what we are doing), that it hadn't run out of fuel. Unless BA are in the habit of putting so little fuel on planes that nearly every flight is nearly dropping out of the sky! Let alone the pilots forgetting to monitor the fuel (which is unlikely, given standard in-flight procedures), or forgetting to notice the fuel shortage warning alarms during what was otherwise a routine flight.

The odds of two jet engines failing is indeed very low; however the possibility of computer failure on these new 'clever' fly-by-wire jets is not so low. I would guess some electrical failure, maybe related to landing gear activation, causing communications failure between cockpit and engines. But that is a total guess too :)

A final point about fuel leakage. 'Significant' might be the same as 'enormous', depending on who says it. Also, if the wing was punctured where it joins the body of the plane, and if the wing was tilting down a bit... then only one wing worth of fuel would leak, and actually, depending on the point of puncture, only a small amount of fuel may leak out, the rest remaining in the wing.Buckethed (talk) 08:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Gimli_glider --- just sayin.. --Kvuo (talk) 14:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"The odds of two Rolls Royce jet engines (or any two jet engines, for that matter) failing simultaneously are astronomical." If you are asserting the chance of them failing simultaniously from independent internal failure, then I would agree. However, it is entirely possible for both engines to fail due to upstream failures, for example, in the avionics package. Indeed, you are making such an assertation yourself, by arguing for fuel exhaustion. However, fuel exhaustion is only one of a number of ways in which both engines could fail to respond. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Part 2 (moved from bottom) Woody (talk) 22:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Buckethed and Toby Douglass both provide excellent points in their response to my post. However, as noted, until the investigation is complete, we are all just guessing at this point. It should be noted that whenever an airplane crashes, the vast majority of the time it's due to human error, and the vast majority of the time the human error turns out to be pilot error. Far and away the number one pilot error when an airplane crashes is...you guessed it! Fuel exhaustion. Buckethed also noted: "The odds of two jet engines failing is indeed very low; however the possibility of computer failure on these new 'clever' fly-by-wire jets is not so low" As a matter of fact, the odds of a computer failure on a critical system on an airliner is EXTREMELY low. In an effort to take any nationalism out of it, I'm American and the odds of an electrical failure related to a critical system on an Airbus are just as low as it would be on a Boeing product...that is, extremely low. On the same note, the odds of a Rolls Royce jet engine failing are just as slim as a General Electric engine failing. As we guess back and forth as to what happened, the main point of my previous post is just to assert that the fact that the plane (supposedly) landed 20 minutes early in no way means that the plane could not have run out of fuel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.129.70 (talk) 22:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

But we are not the AAIB, so we do not know any of the facts. This is an encyclopedia not a forum for speculation. We can only accept Verifiable information which none of this can be. Can we stop this discussion now please. Regards. Woody (talk) 22:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to support Woody this page is to discuss the article it is NOT a discussion board on the accident. MilborneOne (talk) 23:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Recentism

Isn't this article a little overkill? I mean, this incident will likely not be remembered. As for comparion, another aircraft type would only have a short sentence about the first hull loss incident, not a full length article of its own, with its "could have beens" and "what ifs". I was wondering the same thing, when Sky News covered the story the whole day when it happened. --MoRsE (talk) 10:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Au contraire! This incident will most likely be remembered as the first hull loss incident. It may also be more notable once the full AAIB report has been released (end of year?) and all the causes are known and published. The "could have beens" and "what ifs" are kept at a minimum in the article, and referenced. Once the Full Report is issued, they won't matter. Mjroots (talk) 10:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps other articles are underkill. The televisual propensity to forget yesterdays news is extremely unhealthy. Toby Douglass (talk) 15:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you want to stick w/ "overkill"? Intriguing choice, that there had been reports, some of the reports, true or not, that most of them were not even aware that they had crashed,.... &, that it had reminded me of Alfred_Haynes, We. 19th July 1989 {< http://flyertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-537797.html >}.

The article should make it very clear what that video had shown of the wings.

Thank You,

] 13:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm fully aware who Al Haynes is, (and Eric Moody too, if we're going to start bandying names about). Haynes had plenty of time to assess what he could and couldn't do. Coward & Burkill didn't have that luxury. Mjroots (talk) 13:32, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we please stick with the topic at hand? There has been a fair amount of random discussion on this talk page over the past couple of days. The only purpose of this talk page is to discuss the article and how to improve it: not to discuss the subject of the article; not to speculate etc. Please take a look at WP:TALK. Thank you. _TalkIslander 13:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I had been advocating content, regarding the video,.... that there should be such a description.

I did not know, until that comment, about John_Coward; but, John Coward leads elsewhere. Nor had I thought of Eric Moody.

I'd mentioned Mr. Haynes due to the "recentism" attack, the "overkill" attack.

Thank You f/ mentioning Mr. Moody, Mr. Coward.

] 13:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

John Coward now has a link pointing people in the direction of the correct thread if they want the airman. Mjroots (talk) 14:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

For the First Officer flying the aircraft that crashed at Heathrow on January 17 2008 see British Airways Flight 38 John Coward: Whereas I recall watching bbcamerica yesterday, that would be impossible.

] 16:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I have got this wrong, but you appear to be suggesting that the incident could not have taken place on 17 January, because you only saw it on American TV on 18 January. I am assuming that is why you made changes to the John Coward article to suggest that this all took place on 18 January. I can assure you the incident did take place on Thursday, not Friday. -- Roleplayer (talk) 17:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as WP goes, if the subject has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent, it's notable. It's all spelt out in Misplaced Pages:Notability -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

600 feet and 2 miles

The AAIB report mentions that the power loss occured at "600 ft and 2 miles". Note that as the airplane was in flight, these are nautical miles, not statute miles. -- Flyguy649 13:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Agree, but the BBC are quoting it as though it is statute miles. Mjroots (talk) 13:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

And confusingly, although the plane is flying, I believe the 600 ft will be above ground (not above sea level) as the plane was on final approach. Hopefully the AAIB will be more clear in their next update. -- Flyguy649 15:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as WP goes, unless you can point us to a place where the AAIB defines such a default, it's contentious and should therefore be reported exactly as they said and not interpreted. That's why I changed it from nm to m yesterday. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 20:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you looked at any of the AAIB bulletins - they usually have a glossary or terms in each report. I can't check myself as my old pooter takes a dislike to PDF files and just freezes. Mjroots (talk) 21:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The AAIB glosaary gives nm to be the abbreviation for nautical miles. As this abbreviation was not given in the initial report, and nor was the term nautical miles used, I believe the common use of miles as statute miles should be assumed for the time being. regards, Lynbarn (talk) 00:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a bit like someone in the US reading an article from the UK about a pint of liquid and assuming it means 473 ml rather than 568 ml just because Imperial pint is not specified. The aviation industry uses nautical miles by default when they refer to miles and they tend to specify statute miles. For example, the aviation media, such as this article from Flight International interprets the same bulletin as 2 nautical miles. The argument is not major, as the difference in distance is not huge. This will likely be clarified Sunday or Monday with the release of a further report. -- Flyguy649 02:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

British Airways Flight 38

British Airways Flight 38 is, presumably, a scheduled flight which flies every day. Unless they now withdraw the number (presumably unlikely as this wasn't a fatal crash, the article title is rather incorrect. The same goes for all articles on plane crashes which use flight number.

The lead says:

British Airways Flight 38 (callsign Speedbird 38) was a scheduled flight between Beijing Capital International Airport and London Heathrow Airport that crash landed at 12:42 (GMT) on 17 January 2008 on approach to Heathrow.

No. British Airways Flight 38 is a scheduled flight between Beijing Capital International Airport and London Heathrow Airport. A plane flying as BA 38 crashed on 17 Jan; that doesn't mean that the crash is suddenly the primary use of "British Airways Flight 38". --kingboyk (talk) 23:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You are partially right but on Misplaced Pages the agreed terminology (by concensus) for aircraft accidents and incident articles is to use the form as used in this article. If you disagree you can propose a move of this article and all the other hundred or so accident articles. Please read Misplaced Pages:MOVE particularly related to moves that may be controversial. MilborneOne (talk) 23:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User:MilborneOne. The reason we can accept British Airways Flight 38 as an article is because: i) It prevents longer article names, having to specify a date etc. and ii) The likelihood of Flight 38 having another accident on another day is pretty damn unlikely. CycloneNimrod (talk) 00:02, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Autopilot

Can anyone clarify in the article the role of the autopilot? Reports say that the autopilot was engaged. Does this mean it was landing automatically or does it mean that the plane was assisting the pilot? I think this is a significant point and should be able to be answered by someone with relevant knowledge of flying the plane without speculating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.128.12.105 (talk) 00:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe it was the autothrottle that was engaged. It basically maintains a constant speed and frees the pilots from manually controlling the throttles. I'll see about adding to the article. -- Flyguy649 02:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been severely misunderstood, several times, on this disc. page.

Most recently regarding what I had watched, as well as regarding mathematics.

In Alta California, the two least American-program channels largely available to many viewers are bbcamerica & worldlink. That's, for many, it. Most people do not even know that they exist. Only because of Benazir_Bhutto's death did I learn of BBC_News_24, on bbcamerica.

The bbc news is, in California, between 0300 & 0600; the only time that I've seen it go longer is f/ Ms. Bhutto. In the East that's 0600 & 0900. If Greenwich is eight hours ahead, that's three plus eight = eleven. Are you claiming that a day after the crash they were not yet sure who had gone to the hospital? When I was watching, they were reporting it as "breaking news".

Why would they wait ten hours, twelve hours, twenty hours, to report the crash? Did all of the networks in both nations ignore it?

Per mathematics, by the time it was reported, it had been nearly noon in London.

This leaves me very confused.

Further, my constant plea is to have more description of the wings in the article. That is my objective, really. If we disagree about the time, well, okay. Really, more wing. That, I am not competent to write. Please.

Thank You,

] 02:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

So, I am prohibitted from advocating article content, or responding to libel?

] 02:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

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