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Revision as of 21:29, 23 January 2008
Background
I came across the Franco-Mongol relations article several months ago and was amazed at the hard work and the amount of references and media gather by User:PHG. Shortly after I noticed that there is a dispute brewing between PHG and User:Elonka regarding some of the content of the article when I saw the disputed tag added to the article. Given that both editors were veterans with quite a significant experience I assume that the content dispute will merely result in a better article in a timely manner. Alas, I was disappointed when I read some of the language and the tedious, seeminglly unending threads. I first commented on a matter where I agreed with user Elonka in theory but disagreed with her methods in dealing with the matter here in complete good faith: Talk:Armenian_Kingdom of Cilicia#Disputed. It is my belief that she didn't handle that particular incident very well and was uncompromising if not somewhat unreasonable, I felt the same regarding the bigger picture.
Outline of my concerns
A) I believe the relationship between Cilician Armenia and the Ilkhanate was not that of a vassal and subject but that of a superpower and an allied state with similar goals (kind of like US and Israel). Elonka disagrees. B) I believe that there were more than just attempts made at an alliance between Western Catholics and Mongols and even though they were made at different periods of time and were by no means cohesive they should be covered under the Franco-Mongol alliance article and there are enough scholarly references to support such an article.
Cilician Armenia (NOT Armenians from Armenia proper) and Mongols
It is important to mention for clarity's sake that historical Armenia was conquered by the Mongols along with Georgia. For example when Armenian auxiliaries are mentioned in the Mongol offensives, these Armenians are from Armenia proper not Cilician Armenia.
| Number | Historian | Book | Page # | Descriptor | Quote | Notes | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Anne Elizabeth Redgate | The Armenians (The Peoples of Europe)” | 259 | alliance | "Yet for Cilicia, now threatened by the rising power of the Mamluks of Egypt, the Mongols proved providential. A Cilician-Mongol alliance was established. And Cilician prosperity increased." | ||||||||
| 2 | Richard G. Hovannisian | The Armenian People From Ancient to Modern Times, Volume I: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century (Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times) | 286 | alliance | "The papacy, the Crusaders, and the Armenians all made great efforts at an alliance with the Mongol leaders, even hoping for their conversion to Christianity. King Hetum ,wisely, lost no time in approaching the Mongols. In 1247 he sent his brother Smbat to the Mongol court in the distant city of Kara Korum, and several years later he travelled himself to seal an alliance… " “The Mongol alliance was initially of great benefit to Cilicia and the Mongols themselves…” “The alliance was beneficial to the Armenians, however, only as long as the Mongols remained strong…” | ||||||||
| 3 | Edmund Herzig | The Armenians: A Handbook (Caucasus World. Peoples of the Caucasus) | 45 | alliance | ”…Smbat…to negotiate an alliance.” "In 1254 Hetum himself undertook the journey to renew the alliance."”…the Mongol alliance turned out to be a mixed blessing.” | ||||||||
| 4 | Jacob Ghazarian | The Armenian Kingdom in Cilicia During the Crusades: The Integration of Cilician Armenians with the Latins, 1080-1393 | 58 | alliance | "Hetum’s Mongol alliance was indeed a great coup." “…secured an extension of his 1253 alliance with the Mongols.” “…Baybars, who had decided to punish Hetum for his alliance with the Mongols.” | ||||||||
| 5 | Michael Angold | Cambridge History of Christianity: Volume 5, Eastern Christianity (Cambridge History of Christianity) | 422 | attempts at an alliance | "The new century witnessed a number of last ditch attempts to seal a grand Latin-Armenian-Mongol alliance against the Mamelukes. " | Speaking about the 14th century. A different period. | |||||||
| 6 | P. M. Holt, Ann K. S. Lambton, Bernard Lewis | The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. 1A: The Central Islamic Lands from Pre-Islamic Times to the First World War | 212 | alliance | "The Armenian-Mongol alliance, however was a reality of some importance in the great Mongol offensice." | ||||||||
| 7 | Daniel H. Weiss, Lisa Mahoney | France and the Holy Land: Frankish Culture at the End of the Crusades (Parallax: Re-visions of Culture and Society) “ | 300-301 | alliance | "The Armenian-Mongol alliance may provide a historical justification for this…” | ||||||||
| 8 | Hans Eberhard Mayer, John Gillingham | "The Crusades“ | 276 | alliance | "For his part, Hethoum always remained true to the alliance, first with the Mongols and then with the Il-Khan." “Thus Antioch too was incorporated into the Armenian-Mongol alliance, an alliance which was at first clearly advantageous to both sides.” | 9 | Steven Runciman | A History of the Crusades, Vol. III: The Kingdom of Acre and the Later Crusades “ | 295 | alliance | "” | An entire chapter is titled - 1254: Armenian Alliance with the Mongols | |
| 10 | Carl F. Petry | The Cambridge History of Egypt (The Cambridge history of Egypt) “ | 280 | alliance | "…not only to punish the Armenians for their Mongol alliance…” |