Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:23, 2 December 2003

Jesus, i read this again - who wrote it? Gintas Kaminskas by any chance? Lithuanian higher class dominated by Polish???? Damn, Radziwills were so dominated weren't they! Polonisation, once again, happaned not as result of state policy, but as result of constant contact with (higher at that time) Polish culture. I'd like to discuss that with author of changes, or i will change that to sounding more neutral, since this is strictly lithuanian, nationalistic, unrealistic, biased point of view. szopen

-- I would like to point, that ,,Polonisation of Lithuania was not effect of state policy, nor it was goal of Union of Lublin, that Jogaila wanted union with Poland as much as Polish lords, that ,,Western Lithuania taken by Poland in 1920 had majority of Poles who in in referendum voted to joining Poland (referendum was boycotted by Lithuanians, but even if it wasn't, that won't change results, and anyway, this article is _BIASED_ szopen from Poland

--

Before we go further, I would like to point out that the Annales Quedlinburgensis or Annals of Quedlinburg, are not imperial, nor even royal. They are monastic annals. Quedlinburg is a monastery. Remember Matilda, Abbess of Quedlinburg? JHK

Some Polish politicians claim the following problems present. Explanation why they do not hold in square braces
Ethnic minorities are discriminated. The discrimination is in several areas :

• land ownership

nice talking but the facts are different

• access to education in native tongues in fact they receive most money from Polish organizsation, at least according to articles shwoing here in press, since they receive money from Lithuanian govenrment lately and not enough szopen

are there lithuanian children in Poland who cannot learn in their native tongue, and actually Polish schools are being closed in Lithuania

• access to native culture
• national and local government representation

and changing voting districts just to leave Polish majority without representatives is OK ?

according to what i read in Polish press, Lithuanian gvt changed borders of districts so region with Polish majority was divided and added to regions with Lithuanian majorities, so in effectc Poles lost representation in local government szopen

• transcription of names and family names that are written in Lithuanian

in regions where 100% population is Polish they still have to call themselves with those funny endings in administrative offices; and the greatest Polish poet is not Mickiewicz but Mickiewiczius ???

But in Poland, if your name is Mauricius, you will have that name in documents, not Mauricjuski, Mauricz or whatever. If you name is Schmidt, you are called Schmidt, not Szmid. While in Lithuania, they add an ending to name - that is, they are changing people's names!szopen

Quedlinburg was the imperial seat of the Ottonians and it also had a monastery user:H.J.

But aren't the Annals from the monastery? That monastery had an important connection to the imperial family (they supplied a series of abbesses), but it is incorrect to call it an 'imperial monastery.' Q. was an imperial residence - it's incorrect to see them as having one seat. And in 1009, Otto was dead.

The imperial belongs to Quedlinburg, but there is no article yet. An Ex president is still a president. user:H.J.

Well, no. 'Imperial' is often loosely applied to monasteries; we don't have to be so careless on Misplaced Pages. Once imperial does NOT equal always imperial. Under Henry IV imperial patronage shifted very decisively from Quedlinburg and Paderborn to Bamberg. Members of the Saxon dynasty may have remained in charge, but building and art patronage came to a screeching halt. The system by which, for instance, cities became Imperial Cities - a durable title which outlasted the reign of the individual emperor - or ministeriales became Imperial Knights is a much later phenomenon (14th century? Later than my period of expertise). And it doesn't matter who founds it - the name of the institution does not take on the term "Imperial". Bamberg is a nice example. The diocese and its cathedral was founded by Henry IV, but it doesn't really do that well with later imperial patronage. It would be incorrect to call it an 'Imperial Diocese' or 'Imperial Cathedral', despite its foundation. --MichaelTinkler

Even in the case of Royal or Imperial abbeys, the annals are still recorded by the inhabitants and are as such ecclesiastic. {Also, (and these sources are pretty familiar to me) royal or imperial sources say so in the title.} The rest only meant that the royals in question got some say over who was abbot or abbess, and a cut of the takings Before the Pope. JHK

BIAS? Mr. szopen, you accuse these pages of bias? Let us examine your bias: above, your sarcastic remark about the Radziwills implies that you think that they were not Polonized - yet, do you use their Lithuanian surname? Did they? No - you do not and they did not - because the Polish culture (characterized by you, with bias, as "higher") dominated. Pay attention, one of the countries in the "common"wealth was the kingdom, the other was the great duchy. Explain how that is not domination.

Their name is Radvila, by the way. Without a line through the l. By the way, szopen, you were, below on this page, complaining about Lithuanians converting Polish names? How do you explain what happened to Radvila? And Jogaila? And Gediminas (changed to Gedymyn) and Vytautas (changed to Witold)?

There was, and is, a Polish ferver to dominate Lithuania. Lithuania and Poland started as countries in a union, and slowly, with treaty after treaty, the rights of Lithuania as independant were curtailed. By the time of the partitions of Poland and Lithuania, Lithuania had been so swallowed by Poland (in Polish eyes) that there was no need to even mention Lithuania as a separate state in the famous third of May constitution. And then, of course, Poland saw nothing wrong with breaking treaties and invading Vilnius (another name that is often Polonized to Wilno, by the way) in 1920. This Polonization continues today, especially in regions in Poland with a high Lithuanian population. Lithuanian culture is opressed, Lithuanian children in schools are ridiculed _by_ _their_ _teachers_ for wanting to learn their own language. And in Lithuania, the Poles demand separate schools, separate texts, separate teachers, all paid for by Lithuania. As for another example, down below, you state that "according to what i read in Polish press, Lithuanian gvt changed borders ...so in effectc Poles lost representation". Polish press with an anti-Lithuanian _bias_!

If there is any bias in the History of Lithuania page, it occurs in the WWII section. It portrays Lithuanians as fevered anti-semites. In fact, unlike many of the surrounding countries, no SS troops ever came out of Lithuania, and no death camps were ever built there. Lithuania was a small country caught between two madmen. Yes, Hitler and the Nazis killed many Lithuanian jews, but Stalin and the Soviets killed many Lithuanians in general, both during the war (especially in the June of 1941) and in the decades of Soviet rule afterwards.

tamulis

The lithuanian language link to the Lithuanian article on Lithuania does not seem to work, is there a reason?:-s. -fonzy

Now it works again - lt.wikipedia.org had problems.

Moved from article: Other sources including maps, give bigger numbers of smaller administrative units. I have doubts, whether those counties really exists?

They do exist. A quite big page about the subdivision can be found at , and it also links to the actual law which created them in 1994 . I guess the map you saw was one which showed the 56 municipalities - maybe the map used pre-1994 boundaries. andy 18:58, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This way we won't get far, nor will we construct anything with border disputes... Just a set of facts that might end the dispute (though I must admit that I don't see signs of bias in present version of the History of Lithuania article).

• Lithuania was not mentioned in the 3rd may constitution because both polish and lithuanian MPs decided that a new state be formed, therefore deleting both states from the map and replacing them with just one - the Republic (sometimes referred to as the Commonwealth). I will change the corresponding paragraph accordingly, for it were not the partitions to end the existence of Lithuania as a separate (or semi-separate as some may say) state.

• As to the topic of Radvila/Radziwill: I had a discussion with some fellow Lithuanians recently and the only facts we found out were that 'The Family' (as they were usually referred to) gained the name of 'Radziwill/Radvila' not earlier than one generation before the Mikolaj 'the Black'/ Mikolaj 'the Red'/ Barbara generation (contrary to what the legends say). And all of them were already born in ruthenized (byelorussianized/russified/ukrainized/whatever) families. The only direct ancestor of Radziwills that can be found in latopises was Krystian Oscik (died 1442). It were either his children, or grandchildren to get the name. Which leaves not more than one generation for the lithuanian version of their name. After that its' either in its' ruthenized version, or in polish.

Jagiello/Jogaila is a different issue as on the court in Cracow he was speaking polish and quickly accepted the polonized version of his name while probably during visits to Lithuania he might've been speaking lithuanian still - and using the original version of his name. Gedyminas should obviously be switched to his original name.

• As to the Wilno/Vilnius 1920 - I think that this problem deserves its' own page. I'll post a link as soon as it's ready for discussion.

Halibutt 20:23, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)