Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:39, 25 January 2008

Anime and manga B‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anime and manga, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of anime, manga, and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Anime and mangaWikipedia:WikiProject Anime and mangaTemplate:WikiProject Anime and mangaanime and manga B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Galatea

IIRC, Galatea isn't dead. That comes from a misinterpretation of a line from the latest untranslated chapter. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 08:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, if Galatea was dead, then why are Clarice and Miata hunting her down? -Vega

Plot summaries

Also, I think we don't need to list every last action they've ever taken in the Manga - we've got to leave SOME reason for people to buy it. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 10:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Strongly agree. IMO, Character descriptions only need to contain, well, character descriptions, as well as just the essential plot details that affect this character (For instance, Claire traveling with Teresa is "essential" because it shaped her character significantly. However, "Clare followed Teresa for days after she left the village without rest, food, or water. Teresa, at first, tried to violently send Clare away. Eventually, though, she let her travel with her, and the two became attached. The presence of a caring human in her life helped Teresa regain her lost happiness and humanity." - this is too much detail IMHO, too verbose.) On the other hand Clare perfecting "Windcutter" technique is probably not essential. There are also two policies that relate to this topic, fancruft and policy regarding plot summaries. Well, the first one is not a policy, but I still think it's important. Please discuss. --Darkbane 20:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it necessary to list every character in the series, regardless of their significance? I'm thinking of all the characters in the Northen campain, where all we know of them is their names. 82.24.186.128 19:43, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Minor characters

If all we know about a character is their Claymore rank and that they were killed, there is NO POINT in including them in the list of characters. Minor characters who were only introduced to die to screen to show how badass a fight was are not important. If you are desperate to include minor characters - the priests, the bandit gang and the men in black are far more fruitful lines of enquiry as they have actually affected the plot. Also, we don't need to know every last detail of every action every character ever commited. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 09:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, but could you please add your comments to the bottom of talk pages instead of the top? They're much easier to find that way and it's a common convention. --Darkbane 12:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Misplaced Pages is not Reader's Digest or some teaser marketing site. It is meant to provide the broad and solid references. Intentionlly leaveing out "minor" and "unimportant" characters is like omitting "minor" and "unimportant" Elements out of Periodic Table.

Do you really think we should list every no-name villager to ever appear on the series? Every Claymore who appeared in two panels and died off screen? We could use the priest and two guards from the Rabona arc maybe, but giving Zaki - who never actually appeared in the series (it was a Youma impersonating him) his own section is ridiculous. Everything we need about him can be put under Raki's entry. Too many entries will provide no useful information and do nothing except bury the important characters in a pile of junk entries. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 10:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• This whole section of the talk page seems to have been ignored; the info culling and fancruft here is ridiculous. -Biokinetica 02:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please elaborate. Which info has been culled or "fancruft" (whatever the word means)? Realmserpent 09:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• Darkbane already linked to the meaning of fancruft - most of this section is filled with characters that do not have a meaning impact on the story/plot, basically existing in name and sword-style only. Most of these girls don't further the plot in a meaningful way, as their presence could easily be done without and still continue. As for 'info culling', this whole article is the testament to it for the reasons above. It's just too expansive, covering unnecessary territory. -Biokinetica 21:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree and I don't agree ＾＾ I agree that some of the character descriptions need to be revised and they include too many details on every little action a character has taken. But I don't agree with the removal of "minor" characters. Claymore does have a large cast, but I don't think the article includes too many minor characters. (Who for example? Eva? Veronica? ... Flora? Undine? Nina? organization members?). It doesn't even list the guys from Rabona or all of the girls from the Northern Campaign, for example. And to my mind all the characters listed have had enough of a role in the plot, to be mentioned. (To make the whole article more concise it might be possible to merge some of them (for example Noel and Sophia)?) So I think what needs work here, rather than removing minor characters, is the content of most of the major character's discriptions. But that's only my opinion, so let's see what the others say. Minikui 21:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Minikui on this. If really necessary, some minor characters can be merge with others. For example, maybe Zaki can be placed under the entry for Raki. Or maybe "Organization Members" entry for all the little known members, basically all except Rubel. Compare this with the character lists of other animes (e.g. Naruto). I don't think the list is excessive, but some entries (e.g. Teresa) might be. Realmserpent 04:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

• You guys are going to have to define what 'enough of a role' is. Rubel, Raki, Clair, and certain claymores (such as Ilena, Teresa, and Miria) are the only people who should be mentioned, and not some of these "characters" who literally only have two lines said for them. Using Naruto's over-grown archive shouldn't be a goal for this article, as it has a chance to be succinct and to the point. And Terasa's one of the few profiles that actually belongs here - why cut it?. -Biokinetica 03:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

That's why I asked who you'd think should be removed - but imho we cannot keep only the major characters either. The only ones I see that are listed that imho could be removed would be Eva and maybe Elena or Veronica. But those three don't make that much of a difference either.

And the point is not to cut Teresa's (or any other character's) profile, but to improve it, because many of them are way too detailed about every single action the character has ever taken (f.ex Clare's entry retells the complete story with Teresa, but doesn't even mention Raki). Minikui 12:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• A couple of things:

Disagree. Misplaced Pages is not Reader's Digest or some teaser marketing site. It is meant to provide the broad and solid references. Intentionlly leaveing out "minor" and "unimportant" characters is like omitting "minor" and "unimportant" Elements out of Periodic Table.

The dictionary of the universe and this manga are nowhere near the same thing.

That's why I asked who you'd think should be removed - but imho we cannot keep only the major characters either. The only ones I see that are listed that imho could be removed would be Eva and maybe Elena or Veronica. But those three don't make that much of a difference either.

And the point is not to cut Teresa's (or any other character's) profile, but to improve it, because many of them are way too detailed about every single action the character has ever taken (f.ex Clare's entry retells the complete story with Teresa, but doesn't even mention Raki). Minikui 12:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a matter of who goes, but more, who stays. This should be based upon their importance to the story and it's progression. Examples include Teresa, Ilena, Miria, Alicia & Beth. The awakened should be considered for their own article, and if these name-only northern campaign people are really that interesting, put them in a "minor characters" article. Everything that's of importance in this one is being drowned out by nobodies who make little singular impact on the story and plot. -Biokinetica 02:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the current line up is correct, with the probable exception of Renee, who was only mentioned in passing. A lot of the one panel charactrers, such as all the minor Claymores who appeared during the Northern campain only to die without any on screen lines, have been removed - a lot by me. I don't understand why people think Zaki needs to be included. I removed him and put the necessary details in Raki's entry. I don't think more cutting is necessary. I just don't want every minor character added. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 08:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I feel the same way. The article doesn't really include all the minor characters, but only those who had a role in their particular arc (eventhough some people tried to add an entry for every girl from the northern campaign, that's why I listed them under "other claymores"). the only one I feel could be removed would be Eva, but I really disagree on splitting the article as well as on keeping only major characters (those can be added on the main Claymore page, while the character list-page should include minor characters or those that only appeared in one arc, but played a role in that one, as well). Of course, you can always move some more, like Teresa or Miria, to the "Main Characters" section at the top, this will set them apart from the more minor characters. Minikui 10:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

• "Characters" like Nina, Cynthia, Eva, and some of these other northern campaign people don't have a "role", they're just there. They have no impact on the story or plot, and the understanding of the story/plot will not change if you don't know about them. This article isn't supposed to be the supreme repository of Claymore characters, just bring to light those who meaningfully further the story they participate in. -Biokinetica 05:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, to be precise I agree with removing: Elena (used only to explain the Black Card system, supposed to be Clare's "best friend" but we don't see much of that, on the other hand her and Clare's story might be explained later on, when we see how the training in the organization works), Eva, Nina, Katia, Rosemary (for them not having any impact on the story as you said). Even Veronica since she wasn't really important, but that way we have all the "team captains". Or at least their entries can be made smaller and moved to the bottom in some section like "others" or "minor characters" (personally for them I don't feel that would be necessary though).

And as said before, Noel and Sophie can be joined, Audrey and Rachel as well, the other members of the organization as well. (they shouldn't be deleted completely though imho).

Cynthia should be included since she is part of Clare's team now and still alive (her role can still become bigger). But she and Yuma and Tabitha could be joined together as well imho.

So, that's my opinion. Please discuss, who you think should stay or who else should be removed and why. Minikui 10:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I initially thought that it was fine as it was. But going back to the article it seems a little bit odd to see some characters having one-sentenced information. So unless there is a chance of getting more background information for a character (future chapters) I have to agree with Minikui. But Minikui, what do you mean with "joining" certain characters together? Do you mean like, taking the story of two characters and change that into one story? And do you plan to remove their pictures? Twsl 10:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

oh just a small edit here, I also have to agree with Minikui with keeping all the characters on one page, rather than splitting the major and minor characters. I don't see the point in doing that. I really don't like those pages who are linking here and there and everywhere. I'd rather have one well-organized page with a well-ordered table of contents rather than having a page where you have to click something to go there and then go back and click something else to go somewhere else >.< heh, but that's just my opinion.Twsl 11:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Kind of. I was thinking about, for example "Noel and Sophia" or "Audrey and Rachel", they have only appeared together and it should work out to make an entry "Noel & Sophia" putting the informations from both of their entries into one entry. They have rather short entries and these short entries even include partly the same information. I didn't think about removing their pictures, but maybe put one picture that shows both of them at the same time. It would save some space and would make the article a bit more conscise. Or at least that's my intention, not sure if it would work out :)

On the other hand, if we agree on making small entries for the minor characters mentioned before like Eva, Katia etc. then I think pictures should be removed. (Like Renée for the moment, who's entry is short, but doesn't really have the same feeling of giving too much attention to a (for now) minor character). But well, I actually feel most of them could be removed completely (Renée still seems to have a much more important position than most of them) Minikui 11:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I like that merging idea. Although you have to keep in mind that there could be a possibility that for example Rachel could become more important in the future. But it shouldn't be that much of a problem to give her her own section again when that time comes, right? Having one picture for both characters sounds nice as well. I would like to see how this idea will work out. Feedback from the others are still appreciated as well ^_^Twsl 11:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I like the list as it currently is (albiet largely because I've already cut out a large number of the one appearance characters). I don't like joining characters together in one section, even if they are usually seen together - it would be like have a "Clare and Raki" section - when they are both individuals and we'd have to change it when they were longer travelling together. My judgement on whether chracters are important enough to include is based on 1) How long have they appeared for? 2) Do they have speaking roles? 3) Do we know enough about them to justify an article? (Name and number are not sufficient.) 4) Do they extend our knowledge of the world? 5) Are they significant to the plot or likely to be so in the future? I also think that if there is some doubt about whether a character is important enough to include - leave them in. Elena, for instance, is dead, hasn't been mentioned again and isn't that significant to the plot. However, there was an entire chapter dedicated to her, and it gave a lot of insight into the Claymore organisation and Clare's personality - so I believe she deserves to be included. Eva only appeared for a few panels - but those started the largest plot arc in the entire series so far, so likewise. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 09:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Mmh, comparing "Clare and Raki" to "Sophia and Noel" is a bit exaggerated, their roles in the story are completely different :) We wouldn't join them together just because they're always seen together (I wouldn't join Miria, Deneve and Helen together just for that either), but that's just one reason. The main reason is that we have very limited information about them and their entries even have partly the same information. But well, I don't mind having them seperated either.

I agree on what you said about Elena, especially since she might re-appear again in some flashback scene with Clare as well. But I don't agree on what you said about Eva. She is in the introduction of a main arc, but many other characters had that kind of a role (like Rakel, the other one that has been added now), if that's the only thing they were used for I don't think it's enough for them to have their own entry. So I still feel Eva should be removed as well. She could still be mentioned in another entry (f.ex the main story article about the Northern Campaign). Just like Katia who can be mentioned in Jean's entry. But I don't even feel that would be necessary.

What about Rosemary? An entire chapter, but actually a filler or rather to show us more about Teresa and how strong she is, we don't really know anything else about her. Imho it would be enough to mention her in Teresa's entry. Maybe we should do a new section for voting which characters should be removed where we can discuss them each individually Minikui 14:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Clare / Claire

We also don't need all of their names and their alternate translations. Lets just use the official ones, okay? And by the way, Clare is correct. Not Claire. Clare is the actual name used in France, Claire is an alternate version of that.

Is name used in France considered official? It's open to debate. If I remember correctly, the original manga used Claire, and it changed the name to Clare recently.

The official name is what is in the English manga published by Viz. Everything else, including the names in the French or Italian adaptations, are irrelevant (they are relevant for the French/Italian Misplaced Pages, but not for the English one). It seems like the first couple of volumes of Viz used Claire but it got changed to Clare later on, so we should go with Clare. --Darkbane 00:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Clare and Claire respectively are the English and French forms of "Clara", so in the English version Clare makes sense, eventhough Claire might be more widely used today. It's only weird for them to change it in the middle, maybe they got a request from the Japanese publisher to use the spelling Clare (happens sometimes). So anyway both spellings have existed for quite a long time and it's not like Clare being only a modern English spelling of the french name.

On the other hand, Noel is a completely French name and in this case should be spelled Noelle, since she is a woman and Noel is the male-only form of the name. Or is "Noel" used for girls as well in english-speaking countries? Minikui 13:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, what matters is what's written in the English manga, not what name is completely French. Manga have made up completely new names before, so similarity to another language is not always a good indicator.

I have no clue why they changed Claire to Clare in the middle, but it's reasonable to stick to their latest changes ^_^ --Darkbane 11:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

When was Elena's rank ever mentioned? 213.83.99.5 08:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Elena's rank was never mentioned, and I removed that. I also posted the original line above. I did not mean in the French translation, rather, France in general. Clare is a french name, and Claire with an i is a deviant of that name. I meant to say that the actual name is Clare, i.e. that is how you correctly spell the name Claire.

Sorry, but that's not right. Clare does not really exist in France, except for maybe a few Frenchies that use the English spelling. "Clare" spelled as this would be pronounced differently in French, that's why in the French manga as well, they use "Claire". And Claire isn't derived from "Clare" either. "Claire" and "Clare" are both forms of "Clara", originally used in two different countries. (Just wanted to make clear that both spellings are "correct", we'll stick to what the english version uses anyway) Minikui 19:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

removing "Status: deceased" ?

It was mentioned before, but I think all these "Status deceased" etc. right after the names should be removed completely. I think it's too much info, especially in the first line right after the name of the character. It's not really the first thing to mention in a character description, even if those can include spoilers. Minikui 10:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

While it's probably the least of the problems with this article (compared to lack of fiction tense and fancruftiness), it won't hurt to move that info to the last part of each entry instead of the first ^_^ --Darkbane 11:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I removed these parts now. To my mind it is enough if each entry has a line "She was killed by XXX", "She is believed to have died in XXX" etc. If anybody feels that we really need some "Status: xxx" please re-add it somewhere less "directly-in-your-face" ^^;; (I know this article is full of spoilers, but somebody just taking a brief look can avoid such major spoilers this way) Minikui 20:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with the removal, too. --Darkbane 23:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Links on this page

None of the links on this page work, I would fix them if I knew how Hotaruofmibu 18:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Irene/Irena/Ilene/Ilena & Standardisation of Names

Could we please make up our minds as to what her name is? I don't think there's an "official" version of the name, but it looks very sloppy if in one line she is referred to as "Irene" and in the next as "Ilena". I don't care which one is chosen, as long as the article is edited to make it consistent. 11:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, we usually use the one used in the official English translation (which I don't have). And there is an "official version", considering the Katakana-spelling. It is "Irene", the Katakana cannot be read as Irena or Ilena and "Ilene" is prononced differently. It's only because Irene isn't a very well known name or rather the German pronounciation isn't that well known (and the Katakana use that one), and therefore other transcriptions have been used in scanlations (and official translations as well maybe), by translators that didn't know the name/pronounciation. So, anyway, somebody will have to check in the English mangas Minikui 12:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

"Irene" has my preference as well (I think it matches the katakana best), but consistency in the article is most important. And remember: English transcriptions of names in katakana are not always right (see Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle, the Fye/Fay issue). 16:30, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. I standardised all references to Irene. -Realmserpent, 07:04, 03 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! 16:30, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know what is the official names of Duph/Dauf and Sophia/Sofia? Realmserpent 07:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

In the ANN Forum I read that his name is indeed "Dauf", so I changed that Minikui 18:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I have now added a note on Rubel's name being changed in the English version, since - eventhough there are many possible romanizations of his name, RuBel is definitely not one of them. But this might seem unnecessary information to others...? o.o Minikui 20:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think transliteration of Japanese is fine (e.g. クレア Kurea), but let's use the official names for the entry name (e.g. Clare) and other references.

Can we just use the official names (when available) and not all those variant spellings from scanlations/fansubs? (The official name being the one used in the published English manga by Viz Media.) Anime News Network does not count as "official". The following are the official names....

• Vol 1. Clare, Raki, Zaki (Raki's brother), Rubel (man in black), Elena
• Vol 2. Father Vincent of Rabona, Rimuto (organization chief in Sutafu), Galk, Father Pario, Father Serene, Father Rodo, Bishop Kamuri
• Vol 3. Teresa, Rig (bandit who loses hand)
• Vol 4. Sophia, Noel, Ilena (her technique is officially called Quick-Sword), Elda, Priscilla
• Vol 5. Deneve, Helen, Miria
• Vol 6. Alicia, Beth, Galatea, Ophelia, Rafaela
• Vol 7. No new character names

I have only up to Vol 7 of Viz Media's official English versions. If anyone has later volumes, pls list the official names here... Thanks. Realmserpent 10:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

No no, I wanted to say that on ANN Forums somebody stated that Dauf was his name in volume 8 of the English manga by Viz ＾＾ But so far only 8 volumes have been published, so for the later names we still have to go with what has been used in Fansubs and so on. Else there aren't really any variant spellings anymore I think. Or are you refering to the notes I added to some of the names? These were supposed to be "background" info. And since some names have been changed in the English version (mostly those not very well known in English speaking countries) I think that is worth noting as well. But that's only my opinion of course Minikui 10:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I changed the spellings to the official ones, hope I didn't forget one. But I definitely think the note on "Ilena" is necessary, because that is not her name. The Katakana clearly spells a "ne" at the end, "Ilene" would have been possible, but it doesn't really match the pronunciation either. (Her name is pronounced as "ee-reh-nu" or "ee-leh-nu" and not "ie-reen" or "eileen"). And I really hope for Viz that there won't be another Claymore who is really called Ilena afterwards XD Minikui 11:56, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Claymore manblack01.png

Image:Claymore manblack01.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 18:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Added fair use rationale template. Realmserpent 16:57, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Claymore helen01.png

Image:Claymore helen01.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 18:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Added fair use rationale template. Realmserpent 16:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Claymore audrey.PNG

Image:Claymore audrey.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Misplaced Pages articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 18:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. Added fair use rationale template. Warning expires on 9 June 2007, so I think we can delete this message by then. Realmserpent 17:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

character sections

What do you think about changing the sections of the character list a bit? For example, add something like "Humans", "Organization" maybe even "Main characters" (Raki, Clare, Teresa?) ? Somehow "non-claymores" seems a bit weird and starting the List with those apart from Raki so far more or less minor characters seems weird as well ＾＾; Minikui 22:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with moving "Non-Claymores" to the bottom of the page. Realmserpent 04:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Created new sections "Organization" and "Others" as well as "Main Characters", because moving Raki to the end of the list seemed wrong as well ＾＾ Minikui 16:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Class/Generation 78?

Where did this Class 78 come from? We know that Teresa is a generation before Clare; Audrey is a generation after. Rafaela is before Teresa (perhaps more than 1 generation?). Isley is 1st-generation; Riful is 2nd-generation. But 78? What is the source for this number? Realmserpent 04:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody can find a reference to "78"? If so, I'm going to remove it from the Generations section.Realmserpent 06:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Changed. It may still need the modification. I figure there's no definite generation in the work force.

In Japanese the different "classes" or "generations" are referred to as 時代 Jidai, which means "age, era, period, time, epoch" and so on. I'm not sure where the "class" or "generation" came from. I'd use "era" or "epoch" (but I don't know which sounds most fitting in English.) Minikui 18:07, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking about this, too, but volume 3 of the officail english version states Teresa as "A seventy-seventh generation Claymore...warrior number 182." So that's where the class comes from...as to class 76 and 78, that's pure speculation at this point, but a valid guess anyway... -Vega

So that's where the whole thing came from. But yes, it's pure speculation. Also because some of them live at the same time doesn't mean they are the same Class. f.ex Raphaela must be a class prior to Teresa, eventhough she is still alive in Clare's time. Minikui 11:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

too many pictures

I really feel that there are too many pictures in this article, especially in the "Awakened Ones" section. One for each character should be enough. Minikui 16:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I have now removed the pictures, this is not a fanpage and considering the long list of characters it was really too much. I also think the pictures should all be made the same size. But please discuss, especially if you don't agree ^^ Minikui 08:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Restoring removed pictures.

Are there guidelines that say one picture per character? Besides there was no consistency in the removal of them. Either the Awakened form pictures were removed or the human one was. I am restoring them. Adding multiple pictures for some characters does not make it a fanpage. It is providing additional visual information on some characters.

If the page is getting too long then maybe it'd be better to make separate articles for the longer sections.

I don't agree, I think this is too much visual information (and at the moment not enough well written information, but that's a different problem), plus the awakened forms are additional, in this case really unnecessary, spoilers. Not to mention that even more will be added as more and more will appear in the manga. Other wikipedias don't add character images at all, so seperating the character article in even more articles because of pictures is really exagerating. And the pictures really don't have to be that large either.

Most of these characters still have rather short entries (and some will most likely not become any longer as the characters are dead), and two pictures that are almost as big as the whole entry, that's why it looks like a fanpage.

I left only one awakened form pic, because it was the form we mostly see him in, but if you feel that we need to have pictures of the same forms for all (which would be human in that case), I'm fine with that as well.

Well, that's my opinion, let's wait for some others. Minikui 14:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Have you checked out the Naruto,Inuyasha or Bleach articles? They separate the characte sections into smaller articles because having all of them in one page would be invariably long. In fact some characters in those animes have an entire page for themself complete with character images. Of course it's currently different with Claymore because the list and material is still comparatively small, though I can see your argument has merit. At the moment I am not suggesting splitting it yet because as you say, the written material for each character is still small. Anyways, I am disinclined to modify the big images uploaded by other people,though I did upload a few of the big ones you mentioned. Lets see what other people say first though. Killer3000ad 15:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm strongly against splitting off character pages unless there are enough verifiable secondary sources (meaning, not the anime or manga) to justify this decision. In the absence of such material, those pages are doomed to just be fancruft. Having said that, as long as the entries here discuss both the character and their awakened form, it should be okay to have both pictures. As for spoilers, there is no reason not to include spoilers. Misplaced Pages contains spoilers. Also, the absence of pictures on other Misplaced Pages projects is mostly irrelevant because the fair use clauses only apply, as far as I know, to the English Misplaced Pages. So that should not be the basis for making a decision here. --Darkbane 21:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I am also not in favour of splitting it up at the moment nor do I approve the earlier removal of the pictures that I restored or the one image-per-character that was suggested. The article does not seem clustered or out of shape at the moment nor is it that long enough to warrant removing them. Also I don't think it's possible to make the bigger pictures of the Awakened forms any smaller than they are at the moment as it would be pointless to only have a headshot of the Awakened form and making the image smaller would also make it hard to see the detail in the Awakened form.Killer3000ad 08:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by secondary sources? oO

Well, spoilers are fine, but we don't need to spoil everything either XD Especially since the awakened forms are really all about visual impact in the manga. But ok, so far I'm the only one bothered by that, let's leave it as it is at the moment.

But I still feel some of them should be smaller, I really don't think the pictures should be as big or even bigger than the written text. I'll be precise: Those for Ligardes and Isley seem fine to me. Those for Riful way too big, like for all others we could simply use her human face and also if the awakened image is a bit smaller you can still see enough details, I changed it to "120px" and it looks fine. Same for Luciela, just her face as a human and make the awakened form a bit smaller. For Miata as well, there should be a simple image of her face in the new chapter. And in any case, if somebody really wants to see more he can simply click on the thumbnail.

And finally, how some of the images push the text into the middle looks really badly "formated", especially in the rather short texts like Jean's or Alicia's. I'd suggest at least putting the smaller image on the left or in other cases both of them on the right, but that doesn't work if the text is too small.

Mmh, I think that's it, maybe we can find a compromise ^^ Minikui 10:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

A secondary source would be, for instance, a published magazine article discussing Riful or Isley. Having the pictures be a bit smaller is fine in my opinion, for the reason you state (thumbnails). Somehow I'm not really bothered by the "pushing text into the middle" thing. It'd be different if it was pushing the character name into the middle. But yeah why not move the smaller image left and bigger one right? There's no written law that all the small face shots need to be right-aligned. --Darkbane 10:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess the large pictures of the human forms of the Abyssal Ones are not conforming with the other human form pictures, given that they show the whole body rather than the faceshots but since I didn't upload those ones, I am not really sure if it'd be my place to edit them. Also the reason why most of the faceshots in this article are right-aligned is because when I uploaded them, I was following the arrangement that was already in use for the faceshots that were uploaded by another user. Killer3000ad 11:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I tried to edit a few of them now, but feel free to adjust them further. For now I haven't changed the sizes, but I'll try to find smaller pictures for the others Minikui 14:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Could it be an idea to have the same dimensions for each picture like for example with this "code" or something? the way it looks now is imo a bit messy and giving all pictures the same dimensions would make it look a lot bit tidier i think.. what do you think?Twsl 19:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with that suggestion. Minikui 14:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, so this is what I basically did. As suggested I changed the size of the thumbnails to 75. The faceshots turned out well, in my opinion, but the bodyshots may look too small. I don't know what to do about it, of course you could see the full resolution by clicking on them I guess. For the consistency I moved all the pics of the humanversion of the claymores (begin/midsection) from the right to the left. Furthermore I saw that at some pics there were a lot of space between the pic self and the text, so I removed them as well. I don't know if you guys think it looks better this way or not, but if not, feel free to revert it back or give advice how to make it better :) tnx, greetings Twsl 18:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• The images for the awakened beings should be much larger. Having to click them just to see them (not just see the details) is unnecessary. -Biokinetica 18:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I prefer the smaller pics, but you're right, some of them are really hard to see now (Dauf or Riful f.ex. seem fine to me). Is it possible to make the thumbnail show only the head but link to the full body image? Else I'd propose using images only of the heads, f.ex. we have a beautiful coloured image for Ophelia Minikui 19:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Edit: I went ahead and tried to add some new (colored) images from the manga. I didn't delete the former ones and wanted to put a link to the full body image, but I don't know how and can't seem to find out. So feel free to add them. Minikui 19:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I like the new pics Minikui. Adding the links as we speak.. If I got some time left I will add head-only pics of the other awakened beings as well Twsl 21:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, so that's how it's done XD Will help you out then. Minikui 22:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• If you're going to bother with color, at least take them from the animé. With the animé now airing, there's no reason to use poorly-colored manga spreads and covers unless it absolutely must come from the print (i.e. the Claymore main article). And head-shots for the awakened being's fully-awakened forms are totally unnecessary. -Biokinetica 02:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Instead of saying headshots of the awakened beings are "totally unnecessary" you could as well say _why_ you think that. As we discussed earlier, some picutures of the awakened beings were too small. That's why Minikui suggested those headshots. I don't like the idea to have pictures of all kind of sizes criss cross through the whole page so that's why I think this is a good sollution. If you think you've got a better idea, please do tell, but to revert back to those ugly big/small pictures is not an option for me, but if others agree with you, sure, go ahead. But for now as far as I can tell only me and Minikui are for the pictures as they are now, and you are the only one having a problem with it. It would help if the others gave their thoughtsTwsl 10:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Right, I think it looks much better now than before - of course, there might be an even better way of which we haven't thought yet, but for the moment I definitely prefer it as it is now. And I didn't took pictures from the anime on purpose since the Manga pics look much better (the manga is drawn much better imho), they aren't poorly colored or anything, but they have to be low resolution. I think it's fine to have those colored pictures which can be found in the manga and use black-white for the others - but I'd rather go back to completely black-white instead of using anime screenshots. The headshots of AB look good to me as well, better than those way too big images, which were bigger than the actual article of certain characters and after all there is still a link to the full body images. Other opinions would be appreciated Minikui 11:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• What do you mean "ugly big/small pictures"? They're a mixture of manga panels and spreads, ones you and Minikui seem to insist be used. As for color, they should either be all-color, or all black & white. This article looks like a half-used children's coloring book. There won't be usable colored images for every character in the manga. Only in the animé is there a sense of certainty that every character will appear in a colored scene usable on wikipedia. And, they're all the same size. On the subject of linking to fully-awakeneds within thumbnail captions (Ligardes' links to an avatar-sized version), who's bright idea was that? You guys took one problem - varying image size - and 'fixed' it while creating a host of other problems. The manner in which the article operated was copped down for your preference of looks, and even now, it doeasn't look that great, but now the article operates on an asinine system of links and thumbnails. Compared to the Death Note, Bleach, and even Naruto articles, this place looks like a joke. -Biokinetica 21:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually getting tired debating with just one person who doesn't like the layout. Instead of proposing sollutions bashing seems the only the thing he can do, oh and comparing this page with other pages that are "oh, so great". But oh well, here we go again.

'What do you mean "ugly big/small pictures?' -take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=List_of_Claymore_characters&oldid=143525544 to see what i mean.

'Only in the animé is there a sense of certainty that every character will appear in a colored scene usable on wikipedia. And, they're all the same size.' -I don't know if you noticed it but fansubbers use different resolutions

'On the subject of linking to fully-awakeneds within thumbnail captions (Ligardes' links to an avatar-sized version), who's bright idea was that?' -You might try reading back.

'You guys took one problem - varying image size - and 'fixed' it while creating a host of other problems' -"And which problems may that be?

'The manner in which the article operated was copped down for your preference of looks' -We didn't change it for ourselves. We (or at least me, myself) did the changes for the people that read this page. Of course you can't satisfy 100% of all the people. But seeing as no one else is complaining, and you being the only one, I think we didn't do that bad.

'now the article operates on an asinine system of links and thumbnails' -As I told you before, it would help if you came with your own suggestions.

'this place looks like a joke' -Seriously, you aren't expecting me to reply on that, right? Twsl 22:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• My solution would be to revert back to before you edited all the images; i'm not going to take time sitting here listing everything this page used to be. The different sizes were not detrimental to the article in the first place. Now the article is unintiutive for the sake of even lines.

I don't know if you noticed it but fansubbers use different resolutions

I don't know if you've noticed, but each group uses the same dimensions throughout the series - every idiot knows that. You take the screens from subbers with the same resolution each time. The Death Note and Bleach articles figured it out, what's different here?

And which problems may that be?

They're all above. The size chosen for the images is too small for the image to even play a useful role in the article. There was no reason for the colored manga scans other than Minikui liked them. The links within the thumbnail captions are hodge-podge code unintuitive to your average reader.

We didn't change it for ourselves. We (or at least me, myself) did the changes for the people that read this page. Of course you can't satisfy 100% of all the people. But seeing as no one else is complaining, and you being the only one, I think we didn't do that bad.

Just because "no one else is complaining" doesn't mean that this is the proper format for an article. The glaring problems with this page may not be so obvious to you and the two other people bothering to post in this section of the talk page, but take into account readers of the page who don't post here. This article is supposed to be intuitive to more than the people on this talk page.

As I told you before, it would help if you came with your own suggestions.

And as i've said above, the suggestion is to go back to the old images.

Seriously, you aren't expecting me to reply on that, right?

Did I ever give any indication that I was? -Biokinetica 01:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It's quite obvious we will never agree with eachother so lets ask the opinion of some of the regular editors of the pages you mentioned that made this page look like a joke shall we Twsl 03:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

• So you're sweeping the idea of screenshots from the animé that quick? -Biokinetica 03:28, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

So I looked at the Death Note character page and it looks way messier than Claymore's, sure it has beautiful big pictures - that are too big and end up aligned next to the wrong characters. Bleach or Naruto on the other hand use way more links than this page here, so I don't see any problem with the few thumbnail links that are being used here now. But imho those series can't be compared (yet), as they have many more characters with long entries that make using different and bigger pictures useful. For the moment there are only a few characters in Claymore that have that long entries. And especially most of the Awakened Ones have really small ones and pictures that were as big or bigger than their entries. That will probably change as the series continues, but for the moment I think we should stick with smaller images that fit the amount of text.

For the coloured or not - let's wait for some other opinions. For sure even if we use anime screenshots there will be quite certainly a few characters that won't appear in the anime until some second season in 5 years maybe, so in any case some black-white images will stay. Personally, of course, I like it as it is now, but I don't insist on having my way. But I'd still propose using colored manga images when we can find them and use anime screens for the others.

Well, I really don't want to go back to the previous version, it looks better now than before. We used low resolution images on purpose and they have always been used here apart from those AB full body images (which are the only images that have been made significantly smaller), so even if we use anime screenshots they'd be low resolution and not as big as in the other articles mentioned above.

I still prefer Twsl's suggesting of having pictures the same size for everybody, we could make them a bit bigger (like 90px or something), but I really wouldn't like them to be as big as before. Minikui 10:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

So I looked at the Death Note character page and it looks way messier than Claymore's, sure it has beautiful big pictures - that are too big and end up aligned next to the wrong characters.

If you had looked at the page I linked, you'd see different. I was talking about the main page, not the convoluted character page.

Well, I really don't want to go back to the previous version, it looks better now than before. We used low resolution images on purpose and they have always been used here apart from those AB full body images (which are the only images that have been made significantly smaller), so even if we use anime screenshots they'd be low resolution and not as big as in the other articles mentioned above.

So you're using these head-croppings because it's some kind of fad? The whole point of including the full-body images of the awakened is to see their details. If those images are going to be relegated to the same butchering as all the others, then there's no sense in having them here. With the way these right-aligned images of the awakened are being used right now (pointless thumbnailed mug-shots), i'd just axe all the awakened beings' youma forms, leave their human forms, and be done with it. For the article as a whole, either everything's color, or nothing is - you can't have both. -Biokinetica 07:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

If you had looked at the page I linked, you'd see different

Lol! Did you even bothered to take a look at the links yourself? One links to the bleachening product and the other links idd to naruto but hasn't got any charpics oO How can you compare that..

With the way these right-aligned images of the awakened are being used right now (pointless thumbnailed mug-shots), i'd just axe all the awakened beings' youma forms, leave their human forms, and be done with it

still don't agree.

For the article as a whole, either everything's color, or nothing is - you can't have both.

Well, I wouldn't go that far as to say that you can't have both, but I think it would indeed look nicer if all the pictures were of the same kind. With that being said, I also took a look at the deathnote page and I have to admit, the characters-section with the anime-pictures looks indeed rather nice. But to say that that page makes this page look like a "joke".. well errrrrrrrrrr.. no, thats a bit exaggerated :p But you have a point with the anime-pics. Although Minikui has a point aswell. We can't change the mangapics to the animepics just yet, because not all the characters showed up in the anime, so that would lead to mixed anime/manga screenshots and if I may quote you: "you can't have both". Twsl 13:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

AB images: I have proposed removing AB images, but we decided on keeping them and to make them smaller. Now, some were hard too see, so, for those for the moment we are using thumbnail links. And now the pictures fit the amount of text much better. I don't see any reason to remove them now.

Most likely later on it will make sense to put bigger images and one "anime shot" and one "manga shot" and one full "awakened form" shot and one "child form" or what not - but for the moment I clearly feel that's too much.

Actually there are a few characters that could have more than one image or bigger ones already, but unfortunately most of them aren't AB. I'd have no problem with Clare, Teresa, Irene or Miria to have one anime shot and one manga shot, for example. But I don't agree (for now) with Alicia, Dauf or Ligardes to have one human form and one full size awakened form image.

Colored images: If we are going to compare with other series' articles, at least we have to compare the same sections, else there is really no use to it. The Death Note article uses both, manga and anime pics as well as black and white and colored ones, but on the main page they only linked the anime ones, for whatever reason. It looks good, but I wouldn't say that it wouldn't look as good if they had linked the manga images. So that is something to be decided on the main Claymore article, once the character articles uses different images for one character, but concerning the main character article, Death Note actually shows that using anime and manga as well as black and white or colored pics works as well.

I don't see why an anime screenshot looks better than a colored manga illustration. (Don't compare them directly to the pictures from those other articles, since they have higher resolutions.)

As for why we use such low resolution over here. I'm not the one who started it, but as I understand it, this is part of the "fair use" agreement, if you use high resolution images you should give a reason. But as said, we can still make them a bit bigger.

Anyway, my proposition is using colored manga images and anime screens (and for the moment black-white manga pics for the characters that haven't yet appeared in any colored images either anime or manga). To me (while I prefer the manga images no matter if colored or not over anime screens) that looks like an acceptable compromise. And, keep in mind, that if somebody really insists on having all pictures as the same ("colored or not" or "anime or manga"), the only option is "black and white" and "manga". So I'd say, simply vote to get this matter settled, unless you have other propositions :) Minikui 17:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Lol! Did you even bothered to take a look at the links yourself? One links to the bleachening product and the other links idd to naruto but hasn't got any charpics oO How can you compare that..

Even so, you can't change what that response was about. It was about the Death Note article, not Bleach or Naruto's.

:As for why we use such low resolution over here. I'm not the one who started it, but as I understand it, this is part of the "fair use" agreement, if you use high resolution images you should give a reason. But as said, we can still make them a bit bigger.

I already gave the reason - quality. Pictures are just another form of conveying information. They should be entitled to the same quality as the wording of the article. Without that quality, having them here is pointless, because that was their only purpose.

:AB images: I have proposed removing AB images, but we decided on keeping them and to make them smaller. Now, some were hard too see, so, for those for the moment we are using thumbnail links. And now the pictures fit the amount of text much better. I don't see any reason to remove them now.

I'd be ok with this. The only problem I have is one decision or the other only being allowed half-potential. Right now, the awakened images are doing little-more than sitting on the server. -Biokinetica 23:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge

I have proposed a merge of List of Claymore voice actors into List of Claymore characters. The list of voice actors is redundant and the VAs are already present in the characters article. --Squilibob 05:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this. These cast lists are usually integrated into the main body unless there are two separate media with different voice actors, like a movie and a series. Losing the "episode appeared" information won't be a big deal. --Darkbane 02:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm for merging as well. Realmserpent 05:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't you mean "delete" instead of merge? ＾＾ Since the List of Claymore voice actors article includes many really minor roles that aren't listed in the List of Claymore characters. Well, the episode appearance can simply be added after the volume appearance. But well, it'll be a bit hard for people searching the voice actors if they don't want to get spoiled ... Minikui 14:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the episode appearance, as well as rank and type at the beginning to make it a bit more conscise, but didn't remove the same infos from the text yet, in case you don't agree with putting that info at the top, so please discuss and feel free to make changes Minikui 11:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a brilliant idea and has my vote. John Kingston 213.83.99.5 15:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the deletion too, since all the info is already in the article per Minikui's actions (minor roles are not notable I think). So I'll be bold and put the deletion tag on it. Ninja neko 06:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Character List Order

Currently, the characters are listed in order of appearance. Wouldn't it make more sense to list them by rank, or even alphabetically by name? Offkorn 20:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this is to avoid spoilers. You will be able to see just the character up until the part you stopped. But, yeah, I think it would be better to list by their ranks. - 201.79.178.156 00:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think listing by rank is useful. They're already listed in the order of their ranks in the generation list at the top which links to each entry. The ranks aren't that important to base the whole article on them and then there are also some characters with the same rank or with ranks that have changed or with unknown ranks etc. Imho listing by appearance is fine, but alphabetically would be fine as well. Minikui 14:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Class

A claymore's class is only a guideline. The organisation likes it if Claymores don't live too long. However they don't kill them all every seven years and start again. The seven years, which IIRC, NEVER appears in the manga, seems to be more a guideline that the average life of a Claymore is seven years. Therefore exactly specifing the generation or whatever is meaningless. 213.83.99.5 09:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The Known Classes (1,2 and 77) Should still be mentioned as additional info in the Generations Section under List of Claymores.

Done. Class 77 is only behind Teresa's name, since we don't know if all Claymores from her time are the same class. Some of them where there before her and some came later, f.ex Priscilla might be a different class already. Minikui 16:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Priscilla and the girl who got away unscratched

I was just reading the manga (http://www.daily-manga.net/Claymore/08-06/ (Scene 45), page 29) and im not sure whether its the official translation but Riful seems to be talking about a specific girl(I'm sure it's Clare), not young girls in general. if you could find any other sources that can contradict this please report as well, since this little tidbit might have plot ramifications on later chapters and have it corrected accordingly.

No, Riful talks about little girls in general. The japanese text definitely doesn't state anything like "one girl", "one particular girl" etc. The official English translation and Japanese Misplaced Pages say the same. Note that Ophelia survived as well, so it can't be Clare in any case. Minikui 14:09, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Changed names in the official English version

I wanted to ask what you think about the names that have been changed in the English version (Rubel and Ilena for now I think). I saw that other articles stick to the original names, f.ex Sailor Moon, Tsubasa or One Piece with a note about how the character was called in English. For the moment it's the other way around (a note saying how the character is called in Japanese) and personally I feel that should be changed.

To be clear, I am not talking about different romanizations of the same name in Katakana, which all in theory could be possible. For example, "Rifuru" could be "Riffle/Rifle", but "Riful" is a perfectly possible spelling as well. In these cases I mostly agree with using the official names or rather, the official "spelling" (as long as there isn't any solid proof about the origin of the name f.ex).

But how about names that have really been changed and aren't possible spellings of the Katakana and for which exists proof about what they really were supposed to be? In this case I definitely feel that we should use the original names with a note how they were called in English. In this particular case:

"Ilena" is

(1) not a possible spelling of the Katakana, which are イレーネ (Irene) and not イレーナ (Irena), Ilene would be possible.

(2) I think in English Ilena or Ilene are pronounced like "Eileen", since they're variants of that one. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in that case the pronunciation doesn't match the Katakana at all.

(3) Irene is a perfectly normal name and the Katakana match the German pronunciation . Typing the Katakana into the Japanese wikipedia will give you german, greek, italian people called "Irene". Ilena or Ilene pronounced as "ee-leh-na" or "ee-leh-neh" don't even exist I think.

"Rubel" is

(1) not a possible spelling of the Katakana. They are ルヴル Ruvuru, with the character ヴ that is only used to transcribe the foreign "v" into Japanese. "Ruvel" could be possible if the "e" is silent, like in french f.ex. else Ruvul would be possible, but "Rubel" definitely not.

(2)The members of the Organization are named after museums or painters. As mentioned in the article other art-related names are used in Claymore and also in the author's other series. There hasn't been an official statement on this afaik, but every member's name corresponding to a museum etc would be a really big coincidence. (The Italian version which is translated by Rieko Fukada, spells his name as "Luvr". For a Japanese person the connection to "Louvre" seems to be quite obvious, while, if you don't happen to know how "Louvre" is spelt in Katakana, it is rather hard to understand.)

I'll maybe ask Viz directly why they changed the names, but they don't seem to have an official forum or anything. So, how do you feel about using the original name or the changed one?

PS: I'd even propose changing "Noel" to "Noelle", but that is simply because Noel is a male name >.< To me it looks like calling a girl "Daniel", but it doesn't seem to bother foreigners (including Japanese) that much.Minikui 14:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• Ilena has been changed to Irene with a note on her English name. If nobody disagrees I will also change Rubel to Luvre or Louvr or something along those lines (propositions?). Please discuss. Minikui 18:35, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Your point that most anime's character roster list the japanese version first with the english version after has reason. To a certain extent. Don't, forget, however that almost all of them have full-fledged japanese names like Sailor Moon's Usagi becoming Serena in the english version. There is a complete name change, not just phonetic translation. Claymore characters use western or western inspired names characterized into the phonetically appropriate katakana (you yourself went into detail as above), there is no definite basis of translation short of asking the author himself. The names Noel and Irene are prime examples. Therefore, the official english translation released by Viz must be considered CANON. To disregard it would be taking too many liberties in interpretation. We can deduce all we want but to change Rubel to Luvre or Louvr without factual third party proof is unnecessary. To change certain facts due to personal translation or comprehension would be counterproductive to the subjects and information that Misplaced Pages supposedly provides with impartiality.

I do agree with you, but I don't see the difference between a completely changed name (Usagi -> Serena) or a changed name that is a bit closer to the original one, it maybe makes the change less obvious, but it is a change nevertheless.

And like I said, I am not referring to the different possible transcriptions of the Katakana - while those aren't endless either. Changing IreNE to IleNA is what I call too many liberties in interpretation, it's exactly the same as changing Clare to Clara or Helen to Helena. Minikui 16:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The big difference is that Viz is copyrighted and as such official. Note: COPYRIGHTED, I can't seem to stress that concept enough. If, let's say, Encarta, Britannica or whatever sort of Encyclopediea is still in publication were to right down an article about the Claymore Manga in their volumes, they would have to write down those names in English and Japanese as is, without any extra name changes thrown in to exemplify which is the more accurate interpretation. It isn't a question of whose better at translation as it is about writing accurate information to the general public. Let Rubel be Rubel not Louvr(?!), to do otherwise would only add further to the confusion. This isn't a forum nor a personal site. Conjectures don't belong here. Just keep to the facts, keep it accurate and deliver it in a way that's enjoyable to read. Don't compicate matters by changing what doesn't need changing. If you are annoyed by the appalling translation, you're not alone but it's no reason to change it here.

Of course I understand that. But if other articles on wikipedia use original names rather than the official English ones if they have been noticeably changed, why shouldn't we? As long as we note how the character was called in English. We can consider other translations, for example the Italian one, which are just as official, though not as relevant as the English one for the English wikipedia, they are still an offical source for Viz's translation to be off.

If you feel that we should always use Viz's names no matter how much they have been changed, then I don't agree. If the other people here agree with you, though, of course I'm not going to insist. Minikui 12:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Minikui for the reasons he mentioned. Twsl 12:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

'Round and 'round and 'round we go, Heh. If you're referring to anime and/or manga names (which I hope you are staying within the context of, considering the subejct at hand) of course we should use the original names, that's a non-issue. Say, Usagi of Sailor Moon whose name has been changed to Serena. That's a noticeable change. Of course her Japanese name would take precedence, that's just natural. Now, if you change Ilena's name to Irene and Rubel to Louvr, you might as well change Beth's name to Bess too and Luciela to Ruciela and Isley to Easley. Give me separate instances where they have western named characters whos names have been changed in an english publication (like Ronald to Donald) and I would gladly say yes. So if you propose changes then change all that needs changing and not just specific characters. Like you said, other translations such as Italian aren't relevant, yes they are official they would just have to appear as tertiary names not primary nor secondary.

Mmh, I don't think that's the same. Bess or Beth are both names that exist and both are possible spellings that match the Japanese Katakana - so if the English version uses Bess I have no problem with that. Same goes for Luciela or Ruciela and Isley or Easley, they are both perfectly possible spellings of the Katakana, while Ilena und Rubel are not. (Nevertheless I'll try to find some other series that uses western names where some of them have been changed.) Minikui 14:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with the anon here. Regardless of how poor the official translation is, it must be used. Any "more logical" transliteration/translation you can come up with would simply be WP:OR. Of course, it's perfectly fine (and even recommended) to include the original Japanese name in addition to the official name. Unofficial is a big no-no. As for which name to use first, take a look at WP:NC(CN) since I'm not familiar enough with the series to decide. Axem Titanium 19:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

But

That is, any facts, opinions, interpretations, definitions, and arguments published by Misplaced Pages must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article

doesn't that include the Italian translation (as a "reliable source")? Or does that count only for things published in English (and does that mean that even Japanese publication doesn't count?). Minikui 21:11, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Allow me a moment to just digest this piece by piece:

That is, any facts, opinions, interpretations, definitions, and arguments published by Misplaced Pages must already have been published by a reliable publication in relation to the topic of the article

My point exactly. PUBLISHED by a RELIABLE publication. The names Louvr and Irene among possible others don't have the necessary publication backing.

doesn't that include the Italian translation (as a "reliable source")? Or does that count only for things published in English (and does that mean that even Japanese publication doesn't count?)

Yes they do and I've already answered that:

other translations such as Italian aren't relevant, yes they are official they would just have to appear as tertiary names not primary nor secondary

Well, they maybe relevant but why would you use the Italian translation in an English site when the English version is readily available? And I know where that argument is going. If you can't use the Italian version then you can't use the Japanese version as well. Here's the not-so-minute detail you overlooked, it's a Japanese manga not Italian. If it was Italian then feel free to use the original Italian. If you have to, then change the names to Japanese. However, you would have to spell them as they're meant to be spelled in romaji, i.e Clare as Kurea, Rubel as Ruvuru and Irene as(yay) Irene. To spell Louvr instead of Ruvuru would come close to this:

Any "more logical" transliteration/translation you can come up with would simply be WP:OR

Edit the page just remember to follow this:

Unofficial is a big no-no. As for which name to use first, take a look at WP:NC(CN)

--Mickey

Well, they maybe relevant but why would you use the Italian translation in an English site when the English version is readily available?

Only when the English translation is off (else we stick to the English one). It is a fact that they changed the names. In that case another translation can be considered a reliable source as to what was the intended name instead of the changed one. So imho it isn't really original research. And this is not only based on the Italian version, but also on how people whose names are spelled exactly the same as Irene's in Japanese are really called - to me that is simply looking at facts? But maybe my understanding of original research is wrong ^^; That's why I asked, if you want to stick to the English names always, no matter how much they have been changed, or in case of a changed name consider other translations. (And of course, we will always add the name used in English as well.) Minikui 11:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Just use the English version first. I don't like how Viz changed some names either but let's just follow the guidelines. --Mickey

I was asked by Mickey to come here and post my opinion on this issue. (Even though I'm on break... mostly.) To be honest, I think we need to stick to the official English names here. As for articles that stick to Japanese names in case of heavily changed names, it's a case-by-case issue, but unless those are official published English spellings (published in Japan is okay too), they need to go also.

Yes, we all know that the Claymore names are based on famous museums, and yes, Tokyopop's translation is sketchy at best and inconsistent at worst, but it's all we have to work with. Any interpretation of the original name is original research. It should be like this: Official English Name|Kanji or Kana|Romaji, in that order, using the nihongo template.

Yes, there are Italian translations, but those deal with completely different localization issues for the Italian market, and have little to do with the English Misplaced Pages. Since we have an official English source available, we pretty much have to stick to it (and what's worse, keep updating as they themselves keep changing the names. Let's hope Tokyopop employees will read this and catch on).

--Darkbane 02:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, as you want :) I'll change the whole thing back. Minikui 19:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Official names update

Could some nice person who owns the VIZ version of the manga give us an update on the official names used in volume 8 and 9 (should be out soon)? To end this constant changing of some new characters that just appeared in the Fansubs. Thank you. =) Minikui 11:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The list so far thanks to Realmserpent:

   * Vol 1. Clare, Raki, Zaki (Raki's brother), Rubel (man in black), Elena
   * Vol 2. Father Vincent of Rabona, Rimuto (organization chief in Sutafu), Galk, Father Pario, Father Serene, Father Rodo, Bishop Kamuri
   * Vol 3. Teresa, Rig (bandit who loses hand)
   * Vol 4. Sophia, Noel, Ilena (her technique is officially called Quick-Sword), Elda, Priscilla
   * Vol 5. Deneve, Helen, Miria
   * Vol 6. Alicia, Beth, Galatea, Ophelia, Rafaela
   * Vol 7. No new character names

So far...

   * Vol 8. Jean, Riful, Dauf, Katea

   * Vol 9. Raquel, Isley, Flora (called "Windcutting Flora"), Undine, Veronica, Cynthia, Eliza,

   * Keeny (another misreading of Katakana), Zelda, Emelia, Wendy, Tabitha, Pamela, Claudia, Natalie, Carla, Uma (!), Matilda, 

   * Yuliana, Deana (huh?)

maybe forgot someone, a lot of names in this one. Will update the article. Minikui 13:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Title Change

Changed titles of the Abyssals as per Viz english publication Vol 8. When in doubt, check your nearest bookstore.

Thanks. Do you mind completing the list just above this post? So we can match the other names and titles as well. Would be really helpful ^^ Minikui 12:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No problem. So far no big changes, so I'll just change the highly visible ones and then fine tune the rest when more info is supplied. :)

Great. It'll be good already to have the official spelling for characters as Jean/Jeane or Kathia/Katia/Katea, who get changed all the time ＾＾ Minikui 23:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Changed Kathia to Katea. Jean is confirmed spelled as Jean not Jeanne. Flash Sword changed to Quick Sword in english version (though i like Flash Sword better) I will try and change the names of places too should they be innaccurate.

Thanks again. How about Rakel? Was her name mentioned yet? Minikui 14:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Not on this volume. Might be Vol. 9 which is coming out in August. More names are defnitely coming.

In fact Rakel's name is only mentioned at one point, when Clare frees Jean and Jean is like "Katia, Rakel ... I will avenge you" or something like that. That should still be in volume 8 Minikui 19:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Minor characters moved

Based on the discussion above, I have moved the minor characters to a new section. Since some people feel they are too minor and others feel they still should be mentioned this looked like the best solution to me. It really feels like some of them only were added because they're Claymores, the bandits from Teresa's arc or the priests and warriors from Rabona weren't added eventhough they actually had more of an influence on the story. But please discuss, if you feel that anyone of them does not belong there and should be treated as a major character. Minikui 20:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Images

The current image format does not work, as the awakened form images are orphaned fair-use images, and thus liable for deletion under WP:NONFREE. Including those images while deleting the headshots would be a preferable outcome. Sephiroth BCR 06:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Rafaela's Fighting Stlye (Offensive/Defensive)

Could someone say why Rafaela's style is classed as offensive? Her special technique is being able to hide her yoki, which is clearly defensive. Also, her non-regeneration of her lost eye is through choice, not inability. PS4FA 16:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I've no idea whenever it was stated that rafaela is a defensive/offensive type of fighter. I remember that eye-part though. Be my guest to change it if you've got a proper source. I'm wondering if she's noted in the databook though Twsl 16:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Louvre says something like "even an offensive type should be able to regenerate this eye". But she should be in the next databook, then we can correct it if necessary. Minikui 15:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It was Rubel who said that Rafaela is an offensive type warrior.Yueyouko (talk) 11:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

stats of the Claymores

Where did you get these informations? S A+... etc...? Plus, anyone here knows th name of the awakened being defeated by Ophelia? The one that almost ate Raki. Yueyouko (talk) 06:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yue Youko (talk • contribs) 01:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I signed. Hope it works.Yueyouko (talk) 06:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Rigald's Rank

Was it stated in the manga or anime that he's number 2?Yueyouko (talk) 10:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume it would be based on the databooks that it was revealed his number 2, similiar to how people got the stats for all the claymores from them evil_kenshin (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.186.254 (talk) 05:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It is stated by Isley as he sends Rigaldo to join the war in the north. (Nix)

I'm sorry but it's not stated in the manga nor in the anime that Rigald is Isley's number 2.Yueyouko (talk) 15:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Class: Rafaela

Was it also stated that Rafaela belonged to Class 76?Yueyouko (talk) 15:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it wasn't. Class 76 has never been stated and is just a rumor among fans. The only class ever mentioned was Class 77 for Teresa, that doesn't even mean that everybody alive at the same time as Teresa belongs to the same class. The classes have been removed already at the beginning of the article, but some parts seem to have been overlooked in the different character descriptions. Minikui (talk) 09:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Class 76 is still in Rafaela's description. Yueyouko (talk) 14:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Types: Priscilla, Riful, Isley, and Luciella

Was it stated that they're offensive types?Yueyouko (talk) 15:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It's all in the databooks Minikui (talk) 09:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Elda?

just wondering, someone has listed Elda as number 6 from Teresa's time, where abouts was this mentioned? (i can't recall number 6 being mentioned in the anime/manga at all)evil_kenshin (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Agatha's Time

When is Agatha'time ?? before Teresa? Since galatea knows about her, might she be between teresa and clare's time? Fotte

Unnecessary?

I wrote that Priscilla killed Teresa with a surprise attack (whoever watched it should know).

And User:Twsl deleted it, saying that "it's non-sense". The 2nd time User:Twsl tried calling me as a vandal, deleting information and said "reverting vandalism/Teresa worshipping". After I wrote "It's accurate and informative, needed sothat people won't mistake that Priscilla won by power/skill. Slaughtering Noel, Sophia is not related to Teresa, already mentioned in Priscilla's part", he changed to "these kind of articles are meant to give a quick overview of the characters. detailled descriptions of how/when/where/what time she got killed aren't necessary". So this article has space for stuffs like "She chopped off its head while it was eating her sibling's innards. This incident left her mentally traumatised and extremely unstable... yadda yadda yadda... Priscilla is a winged humanoid about 2m tall, with a single horn on her forehead... yadda yadda yadda... Her arms can unravel and extend into tentacles/ribbons that crush and tear her oppoenents, an ability she used to destroy half of Isley's torso in a split-second despite his bulk... yadda yadda yadda...", but no place for how Teresa died, even though it's only 3 words more? I suggest User:Twsl should stop. Thank you.

And User:King Zeal, first he thinks "surprise attack" is inappropriate for WP (?). Then he thinks "it's not important". "Me think it's not important" is no reason for you to delete accurate information. Get over it. Shrine Maiden (talk) 15:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• B-Class anime and manga articles
• Unknown-importance anime and manga articles
• All WikiProject Anime and manga pages