Misplaced Pages

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Misplaced Pages:Neutrality

How about renaming this page to Misplaced Pages:Neutrality (which already links here) and extending it with badly needed aspects on issues of relative coverage other than just the issue of POV pushing, which this policy page traditionally gives far too much attention? I think most non-neutrality in articles is due not to a POV mindset, but to a rather innocuous ignorance on many different aspects of article writing and layout.

Also, I'd welcome something on the imo hugely problematic POV issue of criticism sections. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:18, November 25, 2007

Nevermind. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:27, November 25, 2007

Good summary quote

I found this in Robert Nozick's Philosophical Explanations:

"If a person is wondering whether or not to believe p, can't we offer him reason to believe it as help?" Yes, if your help is neutral. But do you also offer reasons for not believing p? Do you pursue with further reasons for p if the first fail to convince?

Maybe it could be added somewhere in WP:NPOV? — BRIAN0918 • 2007-11-26 13:57Z

When referencing distorts NPOV

I ran into an interesting issue while looking over Anti-Americanism and the "Anti-Americanism in Australia" subsection. It's pretty mediocre so I went to work trying to to draft a "balanced" overview, and I began reference hunting.

But the references providing "evidence of anti-americanism" vastly outnumber the references indicating that it really isn't a major issue. I have endless media reports of protests at visiting US diplomats, numerous major media editorials which criticise individual American decisions and even the Deputy Prime Minister making a sweeping statement in 2005 that "there is a very strong anti-American feeling in Australia" (no I'm not kidding - read it here). I even have a top 20 song by Midnight Oil called "US Forces" which opens with the lyric US Forces give the nod, it's a setback for your country. (Which I confess to singing along with as a teenager).

So the majority of references I can find make it appear that anti-Americanism is utterly rabid here and that we are one step away from gunning down American tourists in the streets,. But as someone living here, I can assure you this simply isn't true. Unfortunately the references that say "although we make snide remarks about Americans every now and then, we basically don't mind them" just don't seem to be out there. It's almost like our media and academia are implying "we all know this, so no-one really needs to says it".

Now my comment here isn't about addressing this specific situation as such, and I'm not asking for anyone to find the references that prove me wrong (although I'll gladly accept them). But I'm curious as to whether there are other "squeaky wheel" type situations where the very act of referencing seems to create POV distortions, and how the community has dealt with them. Manning 10:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Re. the concrete issue: "Howard, een trouwe bondgenoot van de Verenigde Staten, is al 11 jaar aan de macht in Australië." (my translation of this sentence from a VRT new bulletin: "Howard, a faithful ally of the United States, has been in power for eleven years in Australia"). Even if we, simplistic Belgians, can find out that a pro-American leader of a government has been in power for 11 years in Australia (well, he scored with the pro-American view in previous elections didn't he? - arguably something had changed in the period after the last "victorious" election...), it shouldn't be too difficult to find an English speaking political analyst that comes to that conclusion, isn't it?

Re. general issue: I wondered about this in the past (most recently when working on the Sejny article: the most contested sentence of that article uses five references - the article currently has a total of seven references), but somehow got convinced there isn't a real problem. As with the Australian example above: maybe the sources you're looking for are just so big you don't see them, or never considered using them. Also, a contention needing many references usually needs to start with something in the vein of according to some sources ("Depending on source,..." in the Sejny case), which automatically, virtually for any reader, has the look and feel of a less certain issue (implying: NPOV isn't distorted). And FYI (regarding the Sejny debate leading to the 5-reference sentence), one of the few cases here at Misplaced Pages where a Polish-Lithuanian disagreement was settled amicably (compare previous tensions resulting in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus#Remedies): what I want to say is that this time both the Lithuanian and Polish contributors involved (and both groups were involved) could settle for the 5-references sentence after some edgy debate. I even received a nice invitation afterwards .

Hope this helps --Francis Schonken 12:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

See post-abortion syndrome discussion page for massive examples of selective POV pushing with the "undue weight" argument.--Strider12 (talk) 22:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

While you're at it, Strider12, please see WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:TE. MastCell 00:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Protesting against American policy, criticizing American decisions, etc. -- those things are not 'anti-Americanism'. Dlabtot (talk) 16:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

One view will never be neutral: introduce MPOV to replace NPOV?

The NPOV policy was never meant to cope with the limits of interpretation. To start with, what could be neutral to any point of view?

A well known strategy of experienced POV pushers is to push out all views they oppose to from an article, on the pretext that those other views are not significant enough. These so-called "insignificant" views easily include published scholarly points of view. Somehow this wrong-doers are free to present those other views as contradicting some kind of "mainstream" popular view, by law of nature identified as "neutral". However, the neutrality of such a "neutral" point of view is irreconcilable to the personal point of view of those that seek to give WP:UNDUE attention to their own opinion, maybe even at the cost of criticism and the results of other investigations.

All of this is possible for those that intent to abuse NPOV policy at the limits of its applicability. Sure, theoretically some kind of "neutrality" could (and should) be achieved by verifiability and objectivity: however, authority and general acceptance will rarely contribute to such a neutrality, not even being a scholarly point of view, and certainly never as a rule of thumb. How "neutral" was the once generally accepted autocratic dogma of the earth being flat? So, if "neutrality" of any point of view is disputable by definition, why not better stop the abuse of NPOV by hard to dethrone cabals and drop NPOV policy altogether. To make an article truely neutral and encyclopedical, Misplaced Pages should rather adhere to a policy of Multiple Points Of View (MPOV) instead. Rokus01 (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with your assessment of what many POV-pushers' tactics are - it amounts to ostracisation tactics being used to endorse one pet hypotheses and pretend all others don't exist or don't count, and I have seen this too many times. But surely there are already more effective ways to combat this kind of pov-pushing than changing the name of the NPOV policy; since the policy already requires MPOV in effect, it would be nothing more than a ceremonial and probably highly contentious (thus impractical) name change. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In defense of MPOV I argue that POV pushers would have a hard time to push out significant scholarly points of views by abusing MPOV policy. Yes, to replace the misnomer of one of the three very pillars of WP policy by a better equivalent could be cumbersome. Still, anything that would contribute to balance, quality and above all, peace, would be worth some consideration - no matter how symbolic. Rokus01 (talk) 18:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As written now, it already demands multiple points of view adequately enough... Perhaps "MPOV" should be more fully described as a crucial pillar of NPOV, something that is within NPOV. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, please explain why you deem an official emphasis to multiple views contentious? Won't it be rather the contrary, that people will have to waist less time in WP:OR to advertise their personal point of view as the one and only that would be the "most neutral and significant"? Rokus01 (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, I am in agreement with you! I think if MPOV were made a subsection of NPOV, it would satisfy your aims, then such pov pushers could be directed to the MPOV subsection of the NPOV page. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV is already MPOV. All editors and all sources are biased, the key to NPOV is to describe the POVs, rather than asserting them, as in, 'Expert A says X. Expert B says Y. Group C teaches Z.' The policy is clear on this. Some editors choose not to understand the policy, changing the policy won't make any difference to those editors. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem isn't the wording of the policy, the problem is enforcement. Although NPOV is the core policy of WP, there seems to be much more enforcement of behavioral violations such as violations of WP:NPA, WP:3RR, etc. WP:ARBCOM avoids NPOV disputes, making excuses like:

• Decline. I believe this is fundamentally a content problem of the sort which we are notoriously bad at fixing... The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
• Decline. Agree it seems largely to be a content issue. - SimonP 14:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The result of this attitude towards enforcement of WP:NPOV is that a POV pusher can succeed as long as he is 'polite'. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

SeeAbuse of WEIGHT argument below for one recommendation that tries to bridge NPOV while ensuring that "undue weight" does not kill MPOV. In essence, I'm arguing that while there is a reasonable argument for limiting inclusion of references to an unlimited number of non-peer reviewed articles which may distort weight, a different rule should apply to peer reviewed work. In short, summaries of peer reviewed articles should never be subject to purging because that prevents the true weight of academic work from ever being presented. The way to show the weight of facts is to let all peer reviewed material be presented. This also allows the wieght of an article to organically shift as new research is conducted and published, especially in controversial areas.--Strider12 (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is well-covered by WP:WEIGHT. There are dozens if not hundreds to thousands of peer-reviewed articles on any serious scientific subject. Nothing magical happens through peer-review that makes a source suddenly inviolable. The idea is not to include as many sources as possible, but to provide an accurate overview of a topic. On scientific topics, where expert bodies have synthesized the available literature, the opinions of these expert bodies should guide the scientific coverage of the topic. But again, this is an attempt to win a content dispute (where Strider12 is a lone and tendentious voice) by moving the policy goalposts. MastCell 00:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess WP:WEIGHT focus on authority and acceptance, not on neutrality. NPOV could never make one point of view appear more "neutral" for having more authority or acceptance. Most content disputes are indeed about the coverage of multiple points of view. This does not have anything to do with moving policy goalposts, rather with abusing policy in favor of - typically - some kind of single point of view that is hardly to be called neutral at all. Rokus01 (talk) 00:51, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Abuse of WEIGHT argument

I propose that Wikipeida policy on WEIGHT should include a note along the following lines

====POV should not be smuggled in via WEIGHT arguments====

On occassion, especially in controversial areas, editors who are proponents of one position may argue for the exclusion of peer reviewed studies supporting a competing perspective on the grounds that including such material will give a "minority view" undue weight. For example, abortion is highly controversial and arguments over the scientific evidence for or against post-abortion syndrome enjoys heated debate in both the secular and acedemic community. In such cases, the inclusion or exclusion of facts drawn from peer reviewed research for or against post-abortion syndrome may substantially affect the tone of the article and reader's conclusions surrounding this controversy. For this reason some editors may be tempted to exclude studies which they perceive as undermining their own preferred viewpoint and to offer the "undue weight" argument as a basis for deleting contributions made by editors of the opposing view.

As general policy, research published in peer reviewed journals should be always be accepted as facts published in a reliable source. Rather than risking a POV slant based on the judgment of Misplaced Pages editors, the weight of such information should be kept in balance by including information from other peer reviewed journal articles which may present counterbalancing facts and interpretations of facts. Moreover, the weight of peer reviewed articles that are older should not be given preference over newer research, as it is possible that trends in new research may be indicative of a shift in weight from an older view to a newer view. The guiding principle should be inclusion rather than exclusion of all peer reviewed materials.

Similarly, especially in controversial areas, the claim of an individual expert or groups of experts have written or issued statements to the effect that "most experts agree with this position" should not be treated an objective measure of the weight of expert opnion. Unless it is supported with empirical evidence, such as polling data which supports such a claim, such claims should be included in the article with a reference in the text identifying the individuals or groups making the claim of majority support for their conclusions.

In general, and especially in controversial areas, it is preferable that Wikipeida editors should not seek to determine which side of the controvery has the most WEIGHT to support their arguments. Instead, the editors should seek to retain information from all peer reviewed articles cited by contributors as this will allow the articles weight to be adjust naturally with the publication of new research.

Policy recommendation made by --Strider12 (talk) 21:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Holy cow - that seems like an awful lot of WP:CREEP, which I am of course against. Is this really a problem? Shouldn't we use the Keep It Simple, Stupid approach in policies? UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, less is better here. Bensaccount (talk) 20:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for making it shorter, but offer a long detailed version to this discussion page to see if there is agreement people support the general principle I'm suggesting? All the details listed revolve around a real problems where some editors are aggressivley deleting verifiable material offering only feeble WEIGHT argument as their excuse for POV-pushing. (See the discussion page at post-abortion syndrome as a great example.) So do you agree with the principle, if not the length of the principle?--Strider12 (talk) 22:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The context here is that Strider12 is a single-purpose account on post-abortion syndrome. This is a case where scientific consensus is clear and documented; Strider12's edits have focused on highlighting a small number of peer-reviewed studies which have reached conclusions disparate with the consensus, out of proportion to the weight assigned these articles by expert panels and national medical/scientific organizations. Having failed to convince other editors on the article talk page, he appears to be forum-shopping this on policy pages. As to the proposal, the idea of balancing one peer-reviewed article with another reaching a different conclusion, rather than synthesizing an overview based on proportional representation of viewpoints, is unworkable and would have the (intended?) consequence of obscuring scientific consensus where it exists and creating the appearance of scientific debate where none exists. It also relies on individual editors' judgement to select specific articles and their "rebuttal" articles, rather than reflecting the weight given these articles by experts in the field. Which is a recipe for disaster. MastCell 00:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

As further context, as seen on the discussion pages of post-abortion syndrome, MastCell, has defended the purging of at least 22 studies published in the last eight years from that article. Even though these are the majority of studies published in recent years, MastCell cotinues to insist that these recent studies have no weight in light of a 1992 commentary by one psychiatrist and 1989 paper by six APA members (all advocates for abortion) which asserts that abortion has no mental health effects and that "most experts" agree with them. She repeatedly cites the same handful of same "experts" who claim thier view is the majority position (which is not supported by any polls or other measure of opinion) as the argument for deleting dozens of studies and references to peer reviewed literature that does not support the "majority view" claimed by these "experts." Yes, it is MastCell's POV slanted views on undue weight, and her refusal to discuss objective terms for judging WEIGHT on the post-abortion syndrome discussion page, which has led me to this page. I welcome MastCell's involvement here and hope he will contribute to this discussion of how WEIGHT should actually be measured.--Strider12 (talk) 20:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Given the context described above, this appears to be a case of wanting to rewrite NPOV in order to allow original research.

Without looking at post-abortion syndrome, I suggest that WEIGHT would best be determined by medical reviews. Independent studies should have little or no weight at all in comparison, and any selection and analysis of such studies by wikipedia editors would be WP:OR. --Ronz (talk) 20:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

There are two broad components of weight: (1) the weight of facts (data points) as reported in peer reviewed literature, and (2) the weight of conclusions and inferences offered by experts as expressed either as part of the individual studies or through review articles or by committees.

In medical science, the trend is toward evidence based medicine which ranks the value or weight of studies based on objective criteria. Misplaced Pages's evidence based medicine article is pretty good, and in it you will see that the opinions of experts are the lowest ranked of all evidence regarding the benefits or risks of a medical treatment (in this case, abortion).

This low ranking for expert opinion reflects the experience of the medical profession that new research will often displace previously held beliefs, even widely held beliefs, about even non-controversial treatments, much less controversial ones. Moreover, it reflects what Michael Crichton, M.D., has rightly noted: "he work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world."

I by no means oppose including expert opinions or consensus statements from Misplaced Pages articles. I do object to using these, especially selected statements which support a POV-push, as an argument for deleting verifiable information from peer reviewed studies which run counter to the POV of certain editors.

Also, it is unreasonable to exclude mention of recent research from an article simply because it has not yet been included in pre-existing literature reviews.

--Strider12 (talk) 21:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Rfc on NPOV

If anybody has expertise in this area, please see Rfc on NPOV and comment as indicated. Pernicious Swarm (talk) 05:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

What is "UNDUE WEIGHT?"

There is an ongoing difference of opinion as to how to interpret this on the article Waterboarding. Most editors are in favour of stating in the lead: Waterboarding is a form of torture. As I understand it the views on this are:

1. Most experts (>140) consider waterboarding torture,
2. A very small group experts (<4) and notable individuals consider it not torture,
3. The fact some oppose the majority view this is torture proves there is a dispute.

Regarding the above I am interested to hear how to interpret this. Do we, as in Intelligent Design, start with the consensus among experts (it is torture) and continue to explain in the article body what a notable minority thinks? Does opposing a similar stance as with ID violate WP:FRINGE/WP:WEIGHT? Respectfully Nomen Nescio 16:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV is not a weapon for eliminating content in favour of including POVs. A more appropriate rule to consult here would be Misplaced Pages:Define and describe. Bensaccount (talk) 20:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV and WEIGHT arguments are, unfortunately, frequently misused. I'd be interested in how the experts were polled about their opinions. At least there is some claim that over 144 experts have been polled. (And how does one become an "expert" in torture, any way?) For those who really want to try NPOV, instead of making absolute statements, something like "Waterboarding is a form of torture, according to a poll of most experts."(cite) The problem is that many POV pushers will not have a cite that actually reflects a poll of experts but instead will simply point to some reporter who claims to know what most experts believe. Without a real poll of experts, "most" is just an assertion. "Many" is better.--Strider12 (talk) 14:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Does WP:OR Trump WP:NPOV??

This is a big issue in the article Jewish Lobby where for a couple years a few editors have constantly blocked any attempt by numerous editors to point out the simple fact that in the real world Jewish Lobby is NOT always - or even mostly - used in an antisemitic way. A simple google search of the term will show that it is more frequently used - including especially by Jewish groups - as a synonym for Israel Lobby or to describe lobbying by Jews for things like more police protection of synagogues or anti-discrimination laws.

The recalcitrant editors claim since there are no "reliable source" treatise on this common use of the phrase (as there are on the antisemitic use), therefore it is WP:OR to mention them at all! Opinion pieces that it is NOT antisemitic to use the phrase Jewish Lobby have been dismissed by these editors on dubious wiki-lawyering grounds. (Or do I just have to become a better wikilawyer to defend them?) And of course the easily provable fact that the phrase IS used repeatedly and incessently by Jews and non-Jews in non-antisemitic ways is just dismissed as WP:OR. I am sure on wikipedia there are lots of other phrases where some partisan group prefers one interpretation of a phrase and nixes any mention of a competing interpretation, using WP:OR.

My question is: is this something that has to go to dispute resolution? Or is this a problem in the definition of WP:OR? Or does it need to be said that there are situations like this one where WP:NPOV trumps WP:OR?? Carol Moore 05:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)CarolMooreDC talk

OK. I just read Misplaced Pages:NPOV_tutorial and quoted it freely on Talk:Jewish_lobby and then put up a LIMITED template on the main page. I learn fast! How the NPOV, OR and Verifiability ALL have to work together -- and not just be used as excuses for deleting views one doesn't like - does have to be stated more emphatically, however on this viewpoint and in the tutorial.

Carol Moore 06:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)CarolMooreDC talk

…1:49P.M.E.S.T. D.G.DeL-Dorchester Mass i'm an easy going guy i type set stuff perhaps in a unique way, my spelling for sure is'nt all that great though a setting on a talk page can somehow be related,now when it comes to an original idem i am mostly in controll lets say it could be judged as a 99% activity all's well, i try and for the corporation well thats the start i understand and then the reference of thought is another reason why i'm glad for the opportunity to subject some thought,though what about my issue of a topic concerning me wich is based on other topics for instence i'll go to a talk page an relate a reference and or message,and then after a bit perhaps weaks maybe a longer time depending on the quality,then start a page under user talk D.G.DeL-Dorchester Mass signing it David George DeLancey going back to my own reference or start of topic with an opinion, from someone else thats ok, though also a deletion of some sort concerning me to the advantage of my page concerning some degree of a relate elsewhere a reason in my mind is still pending. How can a true exsistance be if then when a exsistance of matter is not further capable of a conduct,you know for a nation network concerning of a matter in Case it sure is a lapsing venture,just because someone has a Thought does'nt mean their just posting their thoughts. I supose it can be very posible to start a juction of one's own determinations to end up with a true explanation of something or matter would be the way to go my thought are now in some sort by the wikipedia venture an endless degree of matter sometimes pertaining to nothing so i am aware of through someone else , i agree with this and will judge myself accordingly without the thoughts i pertain though i will still be a log in as D.G.DeL-Dorchester Mass and improve on the Quality of Knowledge note as a free attempt with society to do so i am granted now to end this.2:12 p.m.e.s.t.David George DeLancey (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

…The Title to my last Post here by D.G.DeL-Dorchester Mass is MAKING AN ISSUEDavid George DeLancey (talk) 19:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality vs objectivity -- please clarify in article

I just removed the last use of "objectivity" in the article. Now, I would like to see a paragraph it this article discussing the difference between objectivity and "neutrality". I do not mind the link to this article in the disambiguation page for "objectivity", but a clarification is long overdue.

To get everyone started, here is an example. When discussing Elvis Presley's death, an objective editor would note that his death was objectified with a rather unsurprising autopsy report and would qualify all subsequent reports of posthumous sightings as "undocumented". A neutral editor, however, would argue that the coroner's opinion weighs as much as the opinion of each subsequent Elvis sighter and, arithmetically, would devote more space to them. (Parenthetically, posthumous sightings are not even mentioned in the Elvis Presley article, a clear case of non-neutrality). Emmanuelm (talk) 15:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:FRINGE for how the example you detail should be covered. This policy did not originate to give fringe theories equal perceived weight, but rather to ensure that all viewpoints are covered in appropriate depth. There is a major difference between the two, with the former being entirely incorrect and unlike the approach taken by any respected encyclopaedia. It is misinterpretation of policy like this, and the fact no doubt I will be called wrong for having said this, that has resulted in my withdrawal from all but the smallest of mainspace work. I'll let other people, like scienceappologist, explain this better and in more depth. LinaMishima (talk) 15:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

An important point to keep in mind is that while the coroner is a reliable source, there are no reliable sources that sighted Elvis after his death. While Elvis sightings have been reported enough to warrant mention in an article about the phenomenon and possibly mention in passing in the article about Elvis, the sources which reliably discuss them frame them for the fringe beliefs that they are. In order to adequately apply WP:WEIGHT, we, as editors, need to be able evaluate the reliablity and verifiability of sources. A coroner's report deserves the full weight of reliability while the eyewitness sightings of Elvis are not reliable for inclusion in an article on that subject. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, the coroner or the coroner's report is a primary source. Using such a primary source as the basis of an edit would constitute original research. A newspaper article that cited the coroners report, however, would qualify as a reliable source. Even if, for example, the same article reported about a person who claimed to see Elvis after his death. The 'source' in question is not the coroner, nor the person who claimed to see Elvis. It's the newspaper who published the material being cited. Dlabtot (talk) 23:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you won't find anyone else who says that you can't use a coroner's report to show someone is dead. That's a laughable argument. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The accreditation of the coroner and the availability of his report makes it reliable. Additional coverage of the report does not automatically magically confer it any additional merit or value (unless the report is not in public archives, in which case the media coverage serves the role of authentication). Reliable primary sources are perfectly acceptable for stating the content of the primary source, as long as they are authenticatable. Similarly, historians, once the origin of a work has been determined (authenticated), simply cite the original work, rather than derivatives, when talking directly about the content of the original work. LinaMishima (talk) 00:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what historians do. It's called research. However, we aren't historians. We're editors. Dlabtot (talk) 01:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

By this line of reasoning, government policies could never be documented unless covered by some external entity, officially published rankings by a ranking organisation could not be used, a person's biography could never be used for information about the person, and so on. There is a difference between showing that a source is likely reliable and conducting original research. LinaMishima (talk) 02:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Not all research is original. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

In addition, it must be noted that the role of the coroner is to research into the circumstances surrounding the death, often having work done for them by pathology labs. As such, a coroner's report can be considered partially a secondary source into the death, being a synthesis of other, primary, information. LinaMishima (talk) 12:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The editor must decide what is fact and what is opinion. NPOV is not a way around it, depite what many new editors seem to think. Bensaccount (talk) 23:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody can be forced to like the NPOV policy, which is totally unrelated to the idea of an 'objective' POV. In fact, attempts by editors to enforce an 'objective' point of view or to "decide what is fact and what is opinion" are explicitly contrary to the letter and spirit of the policy. No matter how frustrating this reality may be to some editors, it is the reality. Perhaps editing Misplaced Pages is not the best hobby for everyone to pursue. Dlabtot (talk) 19:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality or objectivity, both are worthless as soon as persuing such standards would result in enforcing one certain "prevailing" point of view. Also, seeking to disqualify the information of reliable primary sources as WP:OR won't improve on this issue. This discussion belongs to the WP:OR talkpage, though here I think it's appropiate to point out that compiling information from reliable sources, including primary sources, is always justified and encyclopedic - unless considered offtopic. As I already stated above, neutrality (and objectivity) can only be achieved by giving due weight to multiple points of view, conform this NPOV policy. Here it shows again how this misnomer continues to confuse many editors, notwithstanding the details to be read in the WP:NPOV policy. Morover, it continues to cause many editwars as long as so many editors continue to be particularly bad at reserving some encyclopedic tolerance towards multiple points of view. By the way, I think the example of Emmanuelm proves convincingly that "objectivity" does not solve at all the inherent lack of "neutrality" of any particular point of view. Rokus01 (talk) 21:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Rokus says Here it shows again how this misnomer continues to confuse many editors. Please explain how WP:NPOV is misnamed.

Bensaccount says The editor must decide what is fact and what is opinion. NPOV is not a way around it, despite what many new editors seem to think. Ben, after re-reading the policy, I think you are wrong. It is not the responsibility of Wikipedians to separate true from untrue. In fact, WP:NPOV commands to represent all significant views. Please read the Alien abductions article and tell us why you chose not to delete the whole thing.

For all who discussed (doubted?) the value of an autopsy report, you must know that I am a Pathologist. Paradoxically, I am reluctant to mock the posthumous Elvis sightings because there are real cases of Pseudocide; objective identification of the cadaver is an important part of the autopsy.

My opinion --I just realized I did not answer my own question-- is that, within Misplaced Pages, it is easy to be neutral but impossible to be objective. Objectivity implies judging the credibility of an idea and, hence, expressing a point of view. Emmanuelm (talk) 01:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, NPOV is not misnamed, but the the name is confusing to a lot of editors, who seem to have figured out what the acronym stands for, but never bothered to read the policy. Although given the vast number of editors who insist on editing as if NPOV means "the unbiased point of view, i.e, my point of view" - I seriously doubt they are all acting in good faith. I think quite a few editors who 'misunderstand' the NPOV policy are simply being deliberately obtuse. Dlabtot (talk) 02:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Facts must precede opinions. This is the assumed corollary to NPOV. We are not writing a database of quotations. Bensaccount (talk) 02:06, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The word Pseudoscience

I sense there are fundamental problems regarding the usage of the word pseudoscience on wikipedia. This is starting to become a systemic problem on wikipedia since the concept of pseudoscience is used in a policy.

• Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

It feels this policy was written for articles on mainstream subjects where a minority objects to the established sciences. This policy then is then usually desired. However in articles where a fringe subject is described this rule is often applied, and then in my opinion in a way that lessens the integrity of the article. This defaults for most editors, because of their education or cultural background, established science. However fringe subjects are outside established science. Consequently, the scientific body on the subject is thus often limited. Often actual science is published in less reputable journals because of its fringe status. Additionally it represent the minority view, so it will be given less weight. These factors introduces a systemic bias into the article text.

I suggest that an accusation of pseudoscience should present a verifiable falsification of the fringe claim. If the methods are regarded to be lacing then this should be described. This way one can let the science do the work, and at the same time avoid using words that lack a place in philosophy of science.

Totally I find the idea of the whole of science giving a subjective conclusion on the basis of the opinion of some notable scientists isn't enough to warrant it to be written exclusively on basis of hard sciences.

The definition debates on what is pseudoscience or not has been detrimental on the quality of articles. I hope my criticism of this policy is understood, since it is indeed a tricky issue. --Benjaminbruheim (talk) 18:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This concept is irrelevant to Misplaced Pages where, by NPOV policy, all significant ideas, whether true or not, deserve to be discussed. Thus, we have a large and well written article on Homeopathy, complete with over 150 references. Emmanuelm (talk) 14:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy has been under heavy discussion from people from both sides, and I feel the article is fairly respectful. There are however scores of articles that has been under "heavy fire" from people watching the fringe-noticeboard. While I do accept that pure non-sense should be removed, I repeatedly see articles be labeled pseudoscience because this is the opinion of some fringe skeptics sites. For example I see that primary sources describing for example fringe technology is considered unreliable sources, and instead replaced with blanket statements about pseudoscience and theories from uninformed skeptics. I could go deeper into the matter, but it boils down to an unprecise definition of what the definition of pseudoscience is, and at a deeper level on a problematic definition of how science should be represented. Currently it is what is considered mainstream science by the majority of editors which gets due weight instead of accepting there are many concurrent contemptary sciences that need to explained on their on terms. The concept of hard sciences being the only true science is an american bias. I agree that cults and gross scientific misconduct should be treated accordingly, but the heavy vigilant activity against fringe topics is promoting misinformation, lacks scientific integrity, and might be against WP:BLP. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 17:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. I suspect there is a language barrier here of sorts between what you are trying to say and what we are interpreting. Carl Sagan argued in his series and book "Cosmos" that scientists should never dismiss out of hand ideas and prevent them being discussed. He put forth the (correct) notion that only by discussing them and allowing free discussion can false ideas be truly shown to be false. Is this what you are referring to? Or are you refering to an undue weight being placed on logic-based scientific method, meaning that practices which have repeatedly actively avoided the use of proper scientific method are discredited on wikipedia as they do not meet 'hard' scientific measures, and that is to your disliking? LinaMishima (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sorry if I am not clear. Yes, I agree with Carl Sagans reasoning here. I think the undue weight policy introduces subjective bias into an article. The concept of "scientific method" is really a gross simplification if you consider the width of philosophy of science. There are sciences that do have problematic methods, and this should be pointed out. Many of those can be said to "claim to be science, but lack empirical evidence". The problem is bigger with articles that are about anamolous findings, such as Cold Fusion where science has problems finding a mechanic. Other examples are Bio-Psychiatry where the majority POV regards it as unproblematic whilst research which highlights its problem is considered a minority POV. In the article on placebo a number of unproven hypothesises are presented as fact. The problem is that a lot of articles attracts editors that are bent on debunking it and lacks standards, and then succumb to removing information because they regard it as WP:UNDUE, WP:RS, WP:FRINGE and whatever policy helps moving the goalposts for those editors who are actually interested in writing articles portraying the status of the subject. It is frustrating, and it really smells of wikipedia underestimating the intelligence of its readers. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 18:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable reliable sources

Is there a policy that describes how to handle a situation where most of the normal sources are suspected to be biased? Imagine, for a moment, that you are working on the Soviet Union Misplaced Pages, and you are inside the Soviet Union, and all your fellow editors are inside the Soviet Union, and most available information is published by the government. Suppose you are writing an article on Stalin and want to list how many people he killed. But "official" estimates say he didn't kill anybody. "Official" estimates say he made the entire country happy (although you yourself know several depressed people, officially they are classified as "extremely happy"). How would NPOV be achieved in such a situation?

To put it another way, if the emperor has no close, but all the kings officials, and even diplomats visiting from other kingdoms, insist he's quite well dressed, and if about half the people have seen the king walking around without clothes, what does NPOV demand from the "best-dressed list"? Is the king on the list or not? Is he on the list with a footnote? Is he put on a separate list? How about the list of people who don't wear clothes; does the king get put on that list even though he is officially well-dressed? Readin (talk) 15:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, policies are pretty clear. Misplaced Pages content must be verifiable - cited to reliable sources ("Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made.") There are strict guidelines which constrain the use of self-published sources.

We are not working on the Soviet Union Misplaced Pages, and we are not inside the Soviet Union. If the Emperor has no clothes, it has no doubt been noted in a published source. If it hasn't, then it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages. Dlabtot (talk) 16:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Significant minority views

Hi. When making editing decisions about how to present points of view, the Undue Weight aspect of neutrality is crucial. Basically, Undue Weight suggests that tiny-minority (fringe) views may be excluded from an article (even if the fringe view gets its own article) whereas Significant Minority views should be represented, albeit without undue weight.

Therefore, it's important for editors to pay attention to, and learn how to distinguish Significant Minority views. I often find myself explaining Significant Minority policy during Talk disputes. However, while there is WP:FRINGE, there is no shortcut -- not to mention a policy page -- about Significant Minority views. Proposal Would folks agree to add something like WP:SIGMINORITY as a shortcut to the WP:UNDUE section? Thanks. HG | Talk 10:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:SIGNIF is currently simply a redirect to WP:N. I had earlier proposed resurrecting it as a separate guideline and adding content to help give guidance on how to identify a significant viewpoint. I have long thought this redirect inappropriate. A significant viewpoint is very different from a notable one and the two are simply different subjects. Notability only requires a couple of sources, while significance can often require substantially more. I also personally believe that significance needs to depend on context (e.g. how many other views on the subject there are) whereas notability does not, and this context-dependency should be explained. (Example of significance depending on context: If there are only 3 published theories on a scientific question, it might make sense to include all 3 without much fuss. But if there are hundreds of religious doctrines on the specifics of the nature of the Trinity, a different standard would be required to determine which of these viewpoints to mention). Notability is absolute and considers a subject in isolation, whereas significance is relative: in determining significance there is always an implied comparison to a set of other views. (Significance also depends on notability: For barely notable topics all views are significant; tiny minorities can only exist for highly notable topics.) The current view, however, is to rely on WP:FRINGE which explains how to identify non-significant viewpoints. It seems to me to be logical to interpret this outcome as implying that current guidelines favor the inclusion of gray areas (since we only provide guidance on how to exclude clearly non-significant views and we don't provide guidance on how to distinguish signifcant from gray). But I'm not sure if this result was what was actually intended. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 17:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm opposed to the SIGNIF link going to notability because N isn't about article content, but topic inclusion. A redirect to WP:Weight would be better, but I have to agree that a guideline bringing together weight (undue as well as intentionally diminished) and POV significance would be a best. Along the lines of Shirahadasha's thoughts, we might think about delineating religious, hard science, soft science, general academic, and popular culture contexts - or maybe this is too much creep. S, would you mind discussing what you mean by "gray"? Is this a POV between fringe and minority, or fringe and majority, or do you mean things like rejected hypotheses? I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks! Phyesalis (talk) 12:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Worked on the part about objectivity.

It was a bit wishy-washy, so I worked on it a little bit. The way it was written, it suggested that editing with bias is OK. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 19:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

reverted, see edit summary. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:28, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Francis, your summary did not seem to contradict my edit. I think it has to do with the word "judgment," which may connote an intolerance for other views. Do you agree that users should use "sound judgment"? And would it be better if the word judgment were replaced with a synonym, like assessment? From WP:NPOV:

One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate...

...a neutral reader to fairly and equally assess...

We should, both individually and collectively, make an effort to present these conflicting views fairly, without advocating any one of them...

The point was to clarify that users should attempt to exercise good judgment and attempt to make edits based "on observable phenomena without bias."

☯  Zenwhat (talk) 19:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"Sound editorial judgement" is guideline stuff, not policy stuff. Sound editorial judgement is that "extra" thing needed to write more than average articles, but which eludes policy wording. It certainly eludes your proposed rewritings.

My edit summary:

"basing one's judgment" is exactly NOT "what editors should do", READERS should be able to base their judgement on neutral descriptions - editors shouldn't impose their judgment by what they write (bolding added)

One of your sentences I had removed:

One common understanding of objectivity is that it involves basing one's judgment on observable phenomena without bias. In accordance with neutral point of view and verifiability, that's precisely what editors should do. (bolding added)

As for your first quote, here's the bolding I'd apply:

One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate

I'm quite sure that's a part you missed thus far (replacing "all relevant sides of a debate" by "observable phenomena"), and which makes the difference w.r.t. objectivity: objectivity assumes one side of a debate (the "objective" side), and writes from that side. That's something a reporter who writes an article in a newspaper can strive for, but it is unworkable for an encyclopedia where every article is co-authored by anyone who cares to get involved. Then "objective" is useless, because the "objective" approach can be different depending on background of the author, and can nor should be imposed on other authors of the Misplaced Pages encyclopedia nor on the reading public. Instead, Misplaced Pages chose and still chooses to let different biases co-exist on the same page, while biases can't be excluded altogether (beware of the person who tells you s/he is totally unbiased - doesn't exist). In this way articles as a whole approach "lack of bias", while biases should balance each other. This is what the policy means by the "neutral point of view", which is a "point of view" (see 2nd paragraph of WP:NPOV#The neutral point of view), but which is not a synonym of "objectivity". --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Journalists make no assumptions about objective "sides." That's an appeal to authority. Their analysis is intended to be objective -- meaning based on evidence and bias-free. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

No analysis is "objective", any analysis bears the marks of the (background of the) individual performing the analysis. Whatever an analysis is based upon, no two analyses will be exactly the same, even when their authors independently strive for objectivity and avoidance of bias.

And, as said, whatever a single author of a newspaper article strives for, it has little bearing on how to write an encyclopedia where any paragraph can be co-authored by an indiscriminate number of authors. One person's "objectivity" is another person's "bias". Misplaced Pages policy does not try to avoid the unavoidable. Well, sure, if more editors would grasp how to put that basic premise of Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy in practice, there wouldn't have been any need to list so many names here --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I fully support Francis Schonken's revert. We certainly don't want to advise folks to edit based on what they decide is the "Objective POV" Dlabtot (talk) 23:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Frank Schonken, the claim that there is "no such thing as objective analysis." Is that a fact or is that just your personal opinion? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 01:26, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

It could be both, it could be neither (false dichotomy). Really, I don't see why whether or not that is my personal opinion would make any difference for the content of the WP:NPOV/FAQ page.

As said, a choice was made (probably before either of us got involved in the Misplaced Pages project) on how to go about with objectivity in this project. At first glance that choice may even seem surprising, as Misplaced Pages's founder was inspired by Ayn Rand (Objectivism!). So it seems (although I'm probably not expert enough on these matters to write this) that even Misplaced Pages's founder's personal opinion on objectivity wasn't the sole determining factor for what went in the NPOV policy and what didn't (neither did Jimbo ever say otherwise). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Here we go again, confusing objectivity & neutrality. I will repeat myself : objectivity is feasible but incompatible with the NPOV policy because objectivity implies judging the credibility of an idea and, hence, expressing a point of view. Emmanuelm (talk) 12:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Those who are incapable of doing this are worthless not only to this project, but to society in general. Bensaccount (talk) 15:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Francis Schonken, to rephrase my question: Your assertion that "Objectivity does not exist." Do you believe that is a reliable, objection assertion or is it your subjective opinion, and therefore unreliable? If you don't consciously believe you're being objective, but rather, you're knowingly thinking in your head, "ROFLMAO! I'm so biased!!! Let me see how much of my subjective views and opinions I can publish in this place!!" then while it's theoretically possible your opinion might be correct, you are hurting Misplaced Pages and violating policy.

Bensaccount put it very harshly, but he's right. Such an attitude does not belong on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, for that matter. See Eel wriggling, Sophistry, and Nihilism. If you don't believe it's possible to "objectively evaluate" sources, it's hard to follow how you could adhere to WP:NPOV. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 08:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Bensaccount sounds a bit ad hominem. People have views. Their views might lack evidence, or consistency, that does not make them worthless as people, no matter what you think of their arguments. Can we stick to attacking the argument? Thanks. I do agree that the word "objective" is an issue. I don't think there is an objective "side" to an argument. Editing under policy is a process, not a position. We should have no position except to edit within the policy. That is, what we think of the world in general, or in particular, should not weigh on whether we can edit under the policy restrictions. Wjhonson (talk) 21:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson, it's not the existence of views that I'm objecting to. Scientists and journalists have views as well, but what makes them good scientists and journalists is the ability to move beyond their views and analyze the facts objectively. Editors are worthless if they can't let go of their views or avoid using Misplaced Pages to push their own biases. This idea is already reflected in existing policy, as shown above, so avoiding the word "objective" and the nonsense here here seems silly. It's not true. It seems like it's just up there to make Francis Schonken feel good. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 21:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

An open question: What is a "neutral reader," in fact? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 21:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

One point at a time. If you could express each suggested edit in the form:Here is what it says

blah blah blaq

and Here is what I want it to say

blah blah blaggerblaq

it would be helpful for those of us who like to address changes at an atomic level. In that form we can see, right here, the possible effect of the change, instead of needing to review stale edit fights. Thanks Wjhonson (talk) 22:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Deadly nightshade

Hello. I would like to add a sentence to the Deadly nightshade (aka Belladonna) article which in effect states: Deadly nightshade is used in homeopathic remedies. I have found sources which verify this statement - Discovering Homeopathy: Medicine for the 21st Century By Dana Ullman, The Oxford Book of Health Foods By John Griffith Vaughan & Patricia Ann Judd, and Family Homeopath by Robin Hayfield - all of which have been found to pass WP:RS according to this conversations at WP:RSN. It was further suggested there that we quote and attribute the source which is being used such that the sentence would read in effect: According to The Oxford Book of Health Foods, Deadly nightshade "is included... in homeopathic preparations for acne, boils, and sunburns".

Now, the question of undue weight has been brought up as an objection to inclusion of such a sentence. The objection is based on the thought that homeopathy is a fringe science and thus it represents a minority viewpoint. (I'm not sure that it matters, but homeopathy - though perhaps maintaining a minority view in the world of science - is widely used throughout the world and Deadly nightshade is a very popular ingredient for remedies, and in the context I wish to include this sentence, there are no scientific claims being made about homeopathy nor are any theories being presented.) Anyhow, my thought is that by only giving a one-sentence mention in the article, we would not be giving this information any undue weight, but rather providing information about the topic which is actually quite interesting.

My question: Does the inclusion of one sentence such as - According to The Oxford Book of Health Foods, Deadly nightshade "is included... in homeopathic preparations for acne, boils, and sunburns". - in the article Deadly nightshade violate WP:UNDUE?

Thanks for your time. -- Levine2112 20:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi! I'll move over here to, but am happy to wait for more views before I join in again. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'd appreciate it. -- Levine2112 22:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to take the focus away from Levine2112's question, but would like to point out that this is part of a much larger issue currently being played out at several similar articles about plant species, including (but not limited to) Thuja occidentalis (see also the recent discussions on the project page, especially here, here, and here). Between the systematic deletion of any mention of a plant species being used in homeopathy (however well documented or neutrally worded) and the persistent disparaging of any references that is cited (these sources not supporting homeopathy but simply documenting the fact that the plant is so used), I have much the same concerns that he does. MrDarwin (talk) 22:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like responders here to be aware that we've extensively discussed this topic already at reliable sources noticeboard and all sides already agree that all or some of the works above cited are "experts in their field of study" and so that portion of the issue shouldn't be reargued here. We're here more specifically to address on-point, our sub-section on undue weight and how it might apply to this case. Thanks! Wjhonson (talk) 22:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, no-one has an agenda of removing "all" homeopathic mentions, there was simply a concern about weighting. At the begining Levine proposed that any mention of a substance in a published source on homeopathy was sufficient to put a mention in an article, which lead to concern about virtually every material article having to have a mention, so it was requested that notability had to be established. Jefffire (talk) 08:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, there is a slight difference to notability and prominence. The former is usually applied to articles. The latter is applied to ideas and POV contained in articles. A yucky distinction, but one that has to be made in order to avoid people complaining about notability guidelines being inapplicable to these discussions. In point of fact, notability and prominence are very similar, but since there is no community consensus for applying notability directly to article content, we should be careful what words we choose. ScienceApologist (talk) 10:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So notability (WP:N) is not pertinent to this discussion, WP:DUE or WP:UNDUE is. Perhaps we should completely avoid using that term notability in this discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 11:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

If we can all simply assume good faith then we can just make the replacements in our mind without having to make a big fuss over it. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight tutorial

I will now offer an explanation for how undue weight should be applied in articles pertaining to these kinds of situations. For the purposes of this explanation, it is necessary to define a few terms:

1. The subject of an article is considered to be the thing that is represented in title of the article. In the case referenced above, the subject is deadly nightshade.
2. The category of an article is considered to be the broader topic to which the subject is considered a specific instance. In the case referenced above, the category is plants.
3. The connected idea is the contentous fact, statement, or point-of-view asserted to be of import to the subject. In the case referenced above, the connected idea is the homeopathic use of deadly nightshade.

Undue weight states as an opening sentence: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." This is the sense in which the connected idea needs to be evaluated. Effectively, it is the prominence of the connected idea with reference to the subject that needs to be established in order to justify the inclusion or exclusion of an idea per the undue weight clause. I will note that this is different from the prominence of the connected idea with referece to the category. While a minority or fringe opinion may be prominent relative to a category (e.g. astrology is prominent relative to astronomy) the same minority or fringe opinion is not necessarily prominent to all subjects in that category (e.g. there is no reference to astrology on the radio astronomy article).

The only way to determine the prominence of a connected idea with respect to the subject is to find reliable sources that assert the prominence of the idea with respect to the subject. What makes a reliable source? A reliable source in this instance is any mainstream independent source that is about the subject in question. Note that sources which are about the connected idea or dependent on the connected idea are not reliable for establishing the prominence of the connected idea to the subject. For example, a homeopathic desk reference on plants is not a reliable source for establishing the prominence of the connected idea of the homeopathic use of deadly nightshade to the subject of deadly nightshade. However, a mainstream field guide to plants that mentions that deadly nightshade is famous for its application in homeopathy would be a mainstream independent source that could be used to establish the prominence of the connected idea to the subject. In the case of deadly nightshade, there have been two separate problems plaguing the sources offered for inclusion by those hoping to establish the prominence of the connected idea to the subject. In some instances, the sources referenced were not about the subject of the article but rather were about the connected idea. In this case, the connected idea is clearly a fringe subject (inasmuch as homeopathy is pseudoscience) so such sources are subject to extra scrutiny. So a book on homeopathy that mentions deadly nightshade only shows that deadly nightshade may deserve mention in some article devoted to homeopathy. According to fringe guidelines, sources that are strictly about fringe material cannot really be used to establish the prominence of fringe material with respect to a mainstream subject. I have summarized this idea succinctly as the principle of one-way linking. Alternatively, some of the sources offered by those asserting the prominence of the connected idea to the subject were purportedly about the subject of the article (or at least the category of the article) but were not independent of the connected idea. So, for example, a book on the homeopathic uses of plants does not establish the prominence of the homeopathic use of plants outside of the purview of those interested in homeopathy. In order to establish prominence fairly and neutrally, it is necessary to find a source that is independent of homeopathy which asserts the prominence of homeopathy to deadly nightshade. If no independent mainstream sources can be located which assert the prominence of the connected idea to the subject, then the connected idea does not deserve mention in the article.

There is precedent for the application of this principle where the connected idea was found to be prominent through the use of mainstream independent sources on the subject. A particularly relevant example for this discussion where proper sourcing was done to establish the prominence of a connected idea to the subject of an article was what happened in the domesticated sheep article. In this example, User:VanTucky was able to point to a mainstream, independent source that mentioned that certain sheep producers had employed homeopathy in the health maitenance of their flocks. This effectively established the prominence of the connected idea of homeopathic remedies for sheep ailments to the subject of domesticated sheep. There is now an appropriately weighted sentence in the article which discusses the implications of this connected idea to the subject.

ScienceApologist (talk) 08:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This sums it up accurately. In the case of Deadly Nightshade, one might think that if homeopathy was important to deadly nightshade it would be easy to find independent articles on deadly nightshade which mention homeopathy. In fact, no one has been able to find one so far, casting continuing doubt on the significance of homeopathy to the topic of deadly nightshade. Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

And I contend that the Oxford Book of Health Food is such a source. My contention was confirmed at WP:RSN by every outside editor. This book satisfies your desire to have an independent reliable source - a bar which I believe you are setting WAY too high. Regardless, your high bar has been met with this book which fully supports this statement for inclusion: According to The Oxford Book of Health Foods, Deadly nightshade "is included... in homeopathic preparations for acne, boils, and sunburns". -- Levine2112 18:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Am I the only one who sees the unintended irony and humor involved in attempting to assign undue weight to one's opinion by calling it a "tutorial". But if if you don't consider it funny, it is hard to miss the glaring arrogance, presumption, and condescension present in this so-called "tutorial". Dlabtot (talk) 19:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)