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Talk:Homeopathy/Warning

Removed the following text from the description; Note:

The photo that appeared prior to this editing was not a photo of deadly nightshade, and has been intentionally deleted. The previous photo showed a woody shrub, with red berries and deep purple flowers. Atropa belladonna has herbaceous stems (non woody), unripe green berries that turn black when ripe, and dull purple flowers. Imc 20:50, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Whoever added the interwiki link to the Bridge player Belladonna: there must be a better way than to create cross-namespace redirects. How about adding a page about Georges? JFW | T@lk 20:06, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Western Hemisphere

Belladonna is one of the most toxic plants to be found in the Western hemisphere.

Is there any particular reason that this does not say "world"? Specifically indicating "...in the Western Hemisphere" implies that it isn't found in the Eastern Hemisphere, and according to the intro, it is. --Bletch 12:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

perhaps there are more toxic plants in the eastern hemisphere. I do believe that there should be a citation to back up this claim, however.70.104.126.213 00:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

homeopathic remedies

I picked up a bottle of eye drops marketed as "Pink Eye Relief" made by Similason in CVS today. One of the active ingredients is "Belladonna 6X" for "redness, burning", and the package is marked as being a homeopathic remedy ("an ingredient diluted to the level of 6X contains 0.0000001% of the active ingredient—just enough to jump start the immune system"). I'm including a line about it in the "Modern medecine" section with a link to Homeopathy. —alxndr (t) 04:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I am altering this so that it doesn't imply that Belladonna is a treatment for pinkeye, only that Homeopathy claims it is. Not my leg 20:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hardy or not very hardy?

Deadly nightshade or belladonna (Atropa belladonna) is a well-known, hardy perennial shrub, a member of the nightshade family.

The Belladonna is not a very hardy perennial and will not tolerate transplantation.

Perhaps it means it's hardy in respect to climate and things like that but doesn't take being uprooted well? --86.135.245.203 16:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Bill W.

I propose someone remove the text relating to Bill Wilson. If you read the actual source, you'll see quite clearly that he never claimed to have any kind of "belladonna" experience. Those words do not appear in his writings. Nor does a comparable description. I am suggesting this bit of (false) trivia has been added to Deadly Nightshade in error. It should removed. -Anon (Jun 2007)

Homeopathic

Information regarding "homeopathic" use of this plant requires reliable sources. Please don't include this information without such. Thanks! PouponOnToast (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If the article for everything which can be used in homeopathy talks about homeopathy, millions of articles will talk about Homeopathy, which is a bit unbalanced, given that practically anything can be used in homeopathy. For example, if I am allergic to x, then, as I understand it, x can be used in a homeopathic cure. I think we should consider whether this information is important enough to put in the Homeopathy article itself, and it should be added there if it is. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we all need to get together to discuss what articles should have at least a mention of homeopathic use. Depending on where you live, we all know that countless homeopathic remedies sit on shelves or in medicine cabinets all over the world. Mere mention in an article would not be considered "undue weight" or "conflict of interest". As far as I am concerned I don't think that the indications for use should be mentioned. You won't find many docs who like the idea of people treating themselves based on what they have read online. Especially wikipedia. My official take is I think the "most used" (aka polychrest) remedies should have a brief passage along with their other pharmacologic/biologic/other use. I have no interest in discussing whether or not people think it works or how many controlled trials have been conducted. The simple truth is that people use it, and for that reason alone the information should be mentioned here.--travisthurston+ 02:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking along the lines that it should be mentioned if it is a significant use of the substance (compared with other uses). So I'd be looking for an independent reference which covered uses in general and gave significant weight to the use of this substance in homeopathy. So if 50% of all deadly nightshade is used in homeopathy, then it's in. But if 50% of homeopathy uses deadly nightshade, but only 0.00001% of deadly nightshade is used in homeopathy, then it's out. (Obviously allowing for dilutions!). Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure you've thought this through. Take iron, for example: iron is used in construction and is also important in biology. It stands to reason though that both can't involve more than 50% and so according to your argument we should exclude one from the "iron" article.Number48 (talk) 22:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think 50% is necessary - just sufficient. I've left the position of the necessary level open for debate, but suggest it is more than 0.00001%. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

We are currently in discussion about starting a List of homeopathic remedies which would include the information in an appropriate location rather than on pages devoted to botany or chemistry. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe I found some reliable sources for the information and have edited accordingly. -- Levine2112 23:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

A few more studies to consider:

Some of these say Belladonna as a homeopathic treatment is no better than placebo for certain conditions, others say it does have some validity for some certain conditions. -- Levine2112 00:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk reverted citing UNDUE and weak sources. Please describe how UNDUE applies and why PUBMED is considered a weak source. Thanks. -- Levine2112 06:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Which of these say that homeopathy is a significant use of deadly nightshade? Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Significance was not stated in the sentence which had been removed. However, the plethora of clinical studies does lend itself to the significance. -- Levine2112 08:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Prominence needs to be established for inclusion of homeopathy on any page not directly related to homeopathy. This is part-and-partial to the WP:UNDUE guideline. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. For example, many insignificant books mention deadly nightshade - which may be an important part of the plot - but these books don't deserve a mention here as the book is not prominent enough in the world of deadly nightshade. It is not enough just to quote the book and say it is not claiming to be an important use. I'm not saying that homeopathy isn't important, but I'd like to see an independent reference which says it is first. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That Deadly Nightshade is used as a homeopathic remedy is not a minority or fringe view. It is actually a very common ingredient in homeopathy and homeopathy is widely used throughout the world. That Deadly Nightshade is an effective homeopathic remedy may be a minority or fringe view; however, that is not the information being included. Sources such as those already provided and/or ones such as these should be sufficient: . -- Levine2112 20:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

<unindent> Are you reading your sources or are you just sending us the results for a search like "deadly nightshade" homeopathy? Most of these hardly discuss either Homeopathy or don't mention Deadly Nightshade except in passing (or the humorous title). PouponOnToast (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. These sources all mention Deadly Nightshade with regards to being a homeopathic treatment. Please read past page one. The last link, a book entitled "Discovering Homeopathy: Medicine for the 21st Century" (14) even says that it is a common homeopathic remedy for acute ear infection. Plants for a Future's extensive database (13) states: "the entire plant, harvested when coming into flower, is used to make a homeopathic remedy. This is used especially in cases where there is localised and painful inflammation that radiates heat." A source from "Better Nutrition, April, 1996 by James F. Scheer" (12) states that it is a homeopathic remedy for bed-wetting and measles. The Oxford Book of Health Foods (11) mentions the various ailments belladonna is used to treat in homeopathy as well as discussing the lack of research to support these treatments. The source "The Family Homeopath" (10) uses Deadly Nightshade as a prime example of the basic homeopathic philosophy "like cures like". The Alternative Medicine Encyclopedia (9) says: "Belladonna is frequently prescribed homeopathic remedy used to treat illnesses that manifest symptoms similar to those that belladonna poisoning triggers." The Society of Homeopaths (8) use belladonna as the prime example example to also exemplify the basic principal of homeopathy. The New York Times article (7) is high profile and aside from just being used in the title of the article, deadly nightshad is also mentioned as a homeopathic remedy within the article itself. Plants for a Future (6) is an extensive database of rare and unusual plants and in its listed for belladonna, it discusses its various homeopathic uses. -- Levine2112 21:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, are you saying you didn't find these sources by doing a google search for "deadly nightshade" homeopathy, and that you looked at them and found each of them to provide a unique and interesting piece of information for this article, and that each of them substantially mentions deadly nightshade, not just in the title or in passing, or by quoting another, different source? PouponOnToast (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I did a Google search and I am telling you what each one says about Deadly Nightshade above. -- Levine2112 21:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't find that googlewarrioring for links typically adds value to an article. For instance, the new york times article uses "deadly nightshade" only to quote from a Homeopathic manual, and two of your sources are identical. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Please address what each article says as I am outlining above. Thanks for the note about the repetitive link. Google searches can be extremely helpful. -- Levine2112 21:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

<unindent> That's why googlewarrioring isn't helpful. You only have to searchandlink, but I'm supposed to read every article you bring up and evaluate. That's not really in the spirit of collaboration. Why not point to a few mainstream sources that say Deadly Nightshade is a common homeopathic "thing" and we'll go from there. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have outlined what each link states about the topic. So you don't need to bring them up. "Mainstream" has nothing to do with this. We are not making a scientific statement about Belladonna in terms of homeopathy. We are only saying that it is used, and as some of the sources I linked to above state, its use is fairly common. -- Levine2112 21:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I find unacceptable the use of googlewarrioring. If an editor in good faith is researching material for an article, using Google, Google Books, Questia, Lexi Nexis, or any other such online resource it should called research and accepted. If editors have concerns about the sources, they need to state what or why these sources are not acceptable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologize. It was a term descriptive of goolgle searching for something and then just pasting links for perusal. I'm happy to review links that have already been looked at by someone who supports their inclusion. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Then please consider doing so with each of the links I detailed above and let me know if any of them are in your opinion acceptable to simply state that "Deadly Nightshade is used in homeopathic remedies to treat such-and-such." That's all. No science need be involved, supportive or non-supportive. This is an encyclopedia of human knowledge and this bit of knowledge about Deadly Nightshade is not mere trivia, especially given the relative ease I had in finding such sources. -- Levine2112 21:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I really don't have the time to go through your links untill you do. If you could remove the duplicates and the ones where Deadly Nightshade is mentioned only in passing that would be great. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, there's a lot requiring my attention at the moment, so I'll be specific in what I would consider a base standard. If an authoritative secondary source on deadly-nightshade states that one of it's major uses is homeopathy, then that would be appropriate evidence for me that it warrents a mention. Jefffire (talk) 22:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's start with Discovering Homeopathy: Medicine for the 21st Century which states that Deadly Nightshade is a commonly prescribed homeopathic remedy for acute ear infections. -- Levine2112 22:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not an authoritative source for information about deadly nightshade. Jefffire (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

but it is an authoritative source for the use of deadly nightshade in homeopathy. Isn't that all that is required here? -- Levine2112 22:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The use of deadly nightshade in homeopathy is not notable with respect to deadly nightshade, only with respect to homeopathy. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:RS: Sources should be appropriate to the claims made. What's more appropriate here than a major book about homeopathy? Ps, please see WP:NNC. -- Levine2112 22:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not an article on homeopathy. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

In fact, it is not a reliable source for anything - it mistates fact - "Homeopaths have also found g reat success in treating a wide variety of other bacterial infections," is not true, and cast doubts on the accuracy of the entire work. One rotten apple.PouponOnToast (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's the book's POV and is irrelevant to this discussion. -- Levine2112 22:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That the book is factually completely wrong is, but that's academic to the current discussion. You're being asked to demonstrate that homeopathy is important to deadly nightshade, and thus warrant an inclusion in the article, not the other way round. To that end I ask for a source authoritative on deadly nightshade, for example a text book on the genus, which says that homeopathy is a major use of this plant. Jefffire (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You are asking for something which is unlikely to exist... an entire textbook just about Deadly Nightshade. I don't understand why you are setting the bar so high. That's like saying in order to include that Sally from Nightmare Before Christmas uses Deadly Nightshade in the movie, we couldn't rely on the movie or on a book about the movie, but rather we would need it mentioned in a book only about Deadly Nightshade. And perhaps in that same book you might find a passage discussing Queen lyrics or else we can't say that Freddy Mercury says "belladonic haze" in Keep Yourself Alive. IOW, I think you are setting the bar a tad too high here (especially considering that most of this article is lacking in sources of any kind). What the source above demonstrates is that deadly nightshade plays a role in homeopathy. -- Levine2112 22:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't like to beat people over the head with expert knowledge, but in the life-science it is generally common for there to be text books on single plant genera, especially the important ones. That was however just an example, a good text book on angiosperms for example would be acceptable as a source. Jefffire (talk) 22:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. An authoritative book on Homeopathy which discusses its use of Deadly Nightshade or Belladonna is sufficient for including this information. Here are about 140 such books. Shall we take this to WP:RS/N or will you concede? -- Levine2112 22:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you tell me how many other plants are mentioned in all these books? Jefffire (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No. And why is that relevant? I have illustrated in at least one authoritative book on Homeopathy that indeed Deadly Nightshade is a common homeopathic prescription for specific common ailments (acute ear infections, measles, et cetera). -- Levine2112 22:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Those books probably mention several thousand substances used in homeopathy, do they all deserve a mention in their articles? Jefffire (talk) 22:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If they are commonly prescribed remedies for specific conditions, yes. -- Levine2112 22:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Only if you can provide an authoritative source on the subject which says that they are. Might I suggest you try checking your plant text books to see if it's mentioned. Jefffire (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't have any plant textbooks. Nor have you shown why a homeopathic source is not able to be used for verification. WP:RS/N now? -- Levine2112 22:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You still got the issue the wrong way round. What is being asked for is evidence that homeopathy is relevant to deadly nightshade. A homeopathic textbook can only show that the plant is relevant to homeopathy. Jefffire (talk) 22:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. And we are going in circles. So rather than wasting each others time, I will simply post the issue at WP:RSN. Let's see their take on it there. -- Levine2112 22:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Might I suggest trying to build consensus on the talk page first? Only a few contributors have had a chance to chime in so far, and I'm curious what the members of Wikiproject plant have to say for one. Jefffire (talk) 22:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I posted to WP:RSN before I had a chance to read this suggestion. Anyhow, perhaps we can hear their thoughts concurrent to those of RSN. I think the main thing is to get a lot of people's thoughts here. -- Levine2112 23:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's an appropriate source for List of homeopathic remedies. However, per the principle of one way linking, it is inappropriate to link to homeopathy from pages that homeopaths believe are important because homeopaths are not reliable sources on other topics other than homeopathy. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Other than your own rules you put on your own page, is there an actual real official guideline or policy which supports your statement about one-way linking? -- Levine2112 22:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with several posters here - the issue is not whether deadly nightshade is important to homeopathy (which a homeopathy textbook will say) but whether homeopathy is important to deadly nightshade (which a deadly nightshade book will tell you). Stephen B Streater (talk) 08:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, deadly nightshade may be mentioned in the homeopathy article with sources, but linking homeopathy from the nightshade article would require some significant reliable and non-homeopathic source. Homeopathy is quite irrelevant here and creating a link to homeopathy here amounts to promotion of a pseudoscience. Vsmith (talk) 16:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Reliable and non-homeopathic source? Here you go: . Number48 (talk) 19:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Neither. That's a list of (hundreds of) "Plants and fungi used in homeopathy," not a source reliable to the notability of things on articles about plants. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

To be on the positive side, it's a better source than a homeopathic text-book, so you're on the right track. We need something which is a little bit more discriminating. I would be quite happy for there to be mention on the forfront plant used in homeopathy, but add a mention to all of them is obviously silly. Jefffire (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why would it be silly, there's only about 800 on the list. Given that everyone has been claiming there are "millions" of things used in homeopathy this would seem to be quite a discriminating source. Must only be the really notable ones that are listed there!

BTW, Pouponontoast. The Natural History Museum isn't a homeopathy source - it's a natural history source which happens to include, as requested, information about homeopathy. If what you want is a source that doesn't mention homeopathy to mention homeopathy then just say that and be done with it.Number48 (talk) 19:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The source linked is not the Natural History Museum. It is simply a search engine. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the list of 800 is discriminating - in that it shows which substances are important to homeopathy. But I'm interested in deadly nightshade, not homeopathy. I'm looking for a source on deadly nightshade (which doesn't have a homeopathy agenda) which says something along the lines of Deadly nightshade has many uses. Amongst the most significant uses of deadly nightshade is its use in homeopathy. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

To ScienceApologist - the link is to the website of the Natural History Museum. All the content on that website is copyrighted to the Natural History Museum, icluding what links to a search of the database. And the database itself is the database of the Natural History Museum project, "Plants and Fungi used in Homeopathy". It is clear that the information on each page can be sourced to the Natural History Museum.

To Stephen Streater, the Natural History Museum does not have a "homeopathy agenda". It's the Natural History Museum. The very fact that they have included a homeopathic use for an item on the list demonstrates its notability.Number48 (talk) 20:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

A search engine is not a reliable source. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a search-engine wholly restricted to Natural History Museum content. How can the mode of searching possibly affect the credentials of the source.20:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Number48 (talk • contribs)

They have included a homeopathic use on a list of homeopathic remedies, or have I misread this? How much space does the homeopathic use take on the Natural History Museum's published works on Deadly Nightshade? Is this all they have to say about deadly nightshade? Or are there 1,000,000 pages on deadly nightshade, and this is the only one referring to homeopathy? This page does not answer the fundamental question: How important is homeopathy to deadly nightshade? Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I would imagine it is at least important to deadly nightshade as the fact that "The fictional character Sally in Tim Burton's The Nightmare Before Christmas uses Deadly Nightshade several times in the movie to get away from her master Doctor Finklestein". A fact that currently sails past the notability threshold for inclusion in the article.Number48 (talk) 22:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally would not mention random uses of the substance unless there were articles which supported not only the fact of the mention but the significance of it. Did this fictional mention lead to a change in government policy, for example? I haven't read the citation, so don't know whether it should be removed. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a more relevant question to ask in the popular media section is whether, when deadly nightshade is mentioned, people say wasn't that used in that film.... I have no opinion on this and no relevant reference works to fall back on. I do know (see below) that when asked what is belladonna used for? in a medicinal context, my general medical encyclopaedia does not mention homeopathy. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I have just looked up deadly nightshade in three authoritative reference works... The RHS gardening encyclopaedia - no mention of deadly nightshade. The Collins English dictionary - half a dozen lines describing the flower and its toxicity - no mention of homeopathic uses. The BMA Complete Family Heath Guide (first UK edition, 2000) - which mentions belladonna on page 1002 in antispasmotic drugs and refers to p926, which has 2 1/5 columns on antispasmodic drugs and motility stimulants. It does not mention homeopathy. So I have found no evidence in my domestic supply of reliable sources that homeopathy is a significant use of deadly nightshade. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Change

Following extensive discussion on NPOV, the consensus (though not necessarily unanimous) view is that homeopathy has at least one reliable source in an article on deadly nightshade, which is now briefly stated in the article. The statement in the article is gives similar weight to that in the original source and includes the caution warning. Any further debate abount the exact amount and content of the entry can continue with a mention in place. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This source does not assert the prominence of homeopathy to deadly nightshade. Also, the way you wrote the statement was misleading and not verifiable to the source. I tweaked it a bit. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Your version seems to include quite a lot about the mechanism of homeopathy which may not be interesting to people looking up deadly nightshade. What they will find interesting is that it is used in the preparation of homeopathic stuff, and there is no scientific evidence that it works. To be fair, much medicine is not scientifically tested, which is one reason why the success rates for treating different conditions vary so wildly. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not verifiable that the stuff is actually used. We have only the say-so of homeopaths. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"much medicine is not scientifically tested" - source please? Clinical trial says otherwise.PouponOnToast (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Clinical trials are relatively new, and mostly cover drugs. Many drugs are not tested on children, or genetically different groups to the test subjects, but are still used on them even though they may have different effects from those expected. Very few drugs are tested on children, in fact. Another example mentioned on a BBC Radio 4 Analysis programme was the effectiveness of prostate surgery. It turns out that in the NHS, quite a few people contract infections, which have a significant chance of killing, in hospital. And quite a few people with enlarged prostates die of old age or other causes before prostate cancer kills them. It seems no one had actually asked whether a prostate operation would help on balance. I think they came up with the answer that 86 operations were needed to save one like (net) - but that was before the latest MRSA scares, so who knows now whether these operations actually help - there have been no scientific tests to find out - trials of people who do and who don't have the operation in modern NHS hospital conditions to measure life expectancy. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I just put it in as a stopgap. My point is that this source doesn't assert the prominence of homeopathy to this subject and so mention of homeopathy perhaps should be completely excised. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The source does mention the use of homeopathy, and mentions specific uses. So they obviously think homeopathy has some significance. I just don't think we need a lecture on homeopathy in the DN article - just a note on how it is used. And it is used in the preparation of potions, even if it is not present in the final version. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of information in that article and it looks to me like its just an anecdotal mention rather than an assertion of prominence which is what we're looking for. Nevertheless, it is certainly the best thing that anyone has found to date. It would be nice to get another source that actually judges whether homeopathic use is prominent for this particular plant. Is it, for example, the place where most people have come across it? How many belladonna homeopathic remedies get purchased the world over? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:19, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If prominence within Homeopathy really needs to be establish, a simple search of "belladonna homeopathy" pulls back 85,000+ results, most of which are stores selling homeopathic products using Belladonna and Homeopathic indices discussing Belladonna's use. Clearly, we are dealing with a prominent ingredient in Homeopathy. -- Levine2112 20:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Web searches are not reliable sources. Try again. And it's not the prominence within homeopathy that needs to be established for this page. It's the prominence with respect to Deadly nightshade. Good luck. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:PROMINENCE isn't a policy. ScienceApologist just created the alias link. Prominence, anyhow, is all but established given the notability of the Oxford Book of Health Foods. Anyhow, I think that the Google results goes to answering his question about how many belladonna homeopathic remedies get purchased. Given all of the competition, I would say "a lot".-- Levine2112 20:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You've got to do better than that. Quantify it. Then compare it to other uses of deadly nightshade. That will convince me. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This is unnecessary. However, here's 59,916 bottles of a belladonna homeopathic remedy recalled by the FDA in the US last year because of possible lack of sterility. That's just one manufacturer. Satisfied? -- Levine2112 20:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not necessarily up to us to decide prominence from the raw usage data - which might be original research. We can just note that OUP think it is prominent enough to mention in their DN article. We don't know whether it was number of doses or an important experiment to test its efficacy that made it worth mentioning. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. On the RS/N page you were suggesting that for all we know maybe no bottles were being sold. You thought it was important to mention it then. Anthon01 (talk) 21:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That's because I had been looking at homeopathic sources which were not reliable indicators of the importance of homeopathy. But, following the discussion, I have concluded that the OUP publication is independent of homeopathy, and so much more credible when indicating the relative importance of homeopathy to deadly nightshade. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If non-homeopathic non-commercial plant sites mention homeopathy under 'medicinal uses' or 'uses' section, why isn't that good enough. These sites are put together by botanist or plant enthusiast, with the intention of being informative. The uses of a plant is a common information included in plant databases, sites and books. Anthon01 (talk) 21:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Keepin' it simple

This article is not about homeopathy, so I think we don't need a big screed about why homeopathy doesn't work here. All we need to say it how the plant is used, a few words about lack of experimental support to provide balance, and the link to homeopathy so people who are interested can find out for themselves what homeopathy is all about. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. -- Levine2112 20:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy removal justification

I have just read through the entire list of homeopathy mentions in the OUP reference. There are five (including this article they include rue, arnica montana, pulsatilla, and Bryonia alba). Each one of them is off-handed and anecdotal and none offer more than a single sentence. Only one entry asserts the prominence of the plant with respect to homeopathy (pulsatilla is described as "frequently used"). None of the entries assert the prominence of homeopathy to the plant. There is no analysis of homeopathy, no attempt to describe what a homeopathic preparation of the plant entails, and nothing beyond a brief mention in the glossary that even defines homeopathy (it's simply "an alternative medical treatment"). Indeed, the book does not explain that the homeopathic preparations rarely contain the substance. This is disturbing to me, it looks like the authors are speaking about anecdotal claims rather than trying to evaluate in a substantive way. I believe it is because they want to be thorough in their documentation of claims and sometimes (as in the case of this article) the health claims that are made are only found by homeopaths. This, of course, casts a pall on the claim itself and so it seems right that they would contextualize it to homeopath. So this is an argument for excluding the mention of its use in homeopathy, in my book. However, in some cases, they simply mention that the plant is used in homeopathy without further explanation. This is a bit strange, and I'm not sure I understand it since this listing is so haphazard and I can find nothing in other external sources to indicate that these five plants are somehow special homeopathic plants. In sum, I think this resource is fine for a basic overview on health foods, but homeopathy is not a "health food", it is a "medical treatment". The book seems to be careless with its inclusion of homeopathy on its pages. Therefore, ripping single sentences out of the book and showcasing them here on Misplaced Pages as singular sources for claims of homeopathic prominence seems to me to be highly problematic. For example, the index of the book contains no mention of homeopathy, though there are plenty of references to alimentary health benefits. This makes sense, the book is about healthy foods and homeopathy is about as far from "food" as "placebo". I submit that these authors included homeopathy anecdotally with no accounting of implications of their inclusion of the subject only as a means of illustration and not to assert any prominence. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Prominence, as you are using it, is not part of Misplaced Pages's guidelines for inclusion. However, please note that the info about Deadly Nightshade being used as a homeopathic remedy is giving "prominence" by being described in the source, The Oxford Book of Health Food. Above, you give a fairly cogent argument; however, it is solely based on you opinion of homeopathy, the source and various Misplaced Pages policy rather than based on what reliable sources have to say about homeopathy and the source, and actual Misplaced Pages policies.

Further, please note that the additional text which you are OrangeMarlin are trying to include in the passage is not supported by the given source. I suggest that you stop pushing for this inclusion. The source does tell us that the use of Deadly Nightshade as a homeopathic remedy for various conditions is not supported by any known experimental evidence. Let's go with what the source says, and let's agree to leave the WP:OR out. -- Levine2112 00:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:PROMINENCE is mentioned explicitly in inclusion policies. The rest of this argument is similary specious as it does not deal substantively with the points I raised. The text will be removed unless discussion of the points I made can reveal a rationale for analyzing the source as treating homeopathy as prominent to any of the plants mentioned. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I see you have a sense of humor. Anthon01 (talk) 02:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist, please don't refer to WP:UNDUE with your fictionalized WP:PROMINENCE. In my opinion, the only way for you to return the text at this point should be two-fold: 1) Provide a source which actually supports what you are trying to add. 2) Gain a consensus here to add it. My fear is that any more content about the homeopathic use of Deadly Nightshade will violate the actual meaning of WP:UNDUE. The text given already says that this use is not supported by any known experimental evidence. Anything else could possibly violate WP:UNDUE and probably WP:NPOV in general. -- Levine2112 03:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm deleting all mention of homeopathy, your enumerated suggestions are irrelevant. Since no one has commented substantively on my analysis, I assume that there are no objections. Please indicate where you disagree with any of the points I raise in the first paragraph of this section while referring directly to the proposed source. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The source was deemed reliable at WP:RSN. If you are contesting that, then please feel free to bring it back to RSN. Everyone else here is more than satisfied with the source. Reverting now will be against consensus and unjustified by any cogent Misplaced Pages policy. -- Levine2112 05:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, no one at RSN commented on the analysis I wrote above. They couldn't. It was done on this page after the supposed "consensus" at RSN was reached. Although I respect the person who inserted this sentence and source into the article, I have come to a dispassionate conclusion that the source is not good enough for the content being suggested. Your insistence on ignoring this and instead referring to previous discussions is an example of a false claim of consensus. In the meantime, you still haven't dealt substantively with my request, even after I challenged you to do so three different times above. Either you will read the paragraph and try to present evidence that the source is other than I documented, or you will continue to refuse to engage and find that you increasingly have no ground upon which to stand. The choice is yours. Engage with the analysis or be bypassed. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What I am telling you to do is to bring your argument to WP:RSN and see if there is a change of opinion (rather than us arguing about it here). However, currently the folks at RSN agreed that Oxford Book of Health is a reliable source of the included information as does nearly every other editor on this page barring yourself. So what I am telling you to do is to bring your points to RSN and see if there is a change of opinion. Please let me know when you do bring it there as I will want to participate in that discussion at that location. Thanks. -- Levine2112 06:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't have to bring anything to anywhere else but here. The conversation at WP:RSN is over and archived. If you want to start a new conversation there, you are welcome to, but there is no requirement in any of the policies to restart conversations for the sake of the whims of another editor. This is the page where we discuss the article. It is apparent that you are refusing to discuss here. I welcome your input, but I'm not going to jump through arbitrary hoops that you design. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

This RSN hoop isn't arbitrary. It is part of WP:DR to get a WP:3PO. You contend that this source is not a WP:RS while everyone else (here and previously at RSN) contends it is. You have a new argument against this source but have reached an impasse here; your logical recourse to follow per DR is to seek 3POs from RSN to see if your grounds to dismiss this source holds water. I would love to discuss this further but with the guidance/opinions of third-parties. Sound reasonable? -- Levine2112 16:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

No response? Very well. Homeopathy removed. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I've given you an adequate response. Your removal is unjustified. -- Levine2112 19:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You have yet to respond to my analysis. I've given plenty of time for you to do so. 19:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceApologist (talk • contribs)

I simply disagree with the conclusion of your analysis (that the Oxford Book of Health Food is not a reliable source). A next step is taking it to WP:RSN and see if they agree or disagree with your conclusion based on your analysis. Another step would be to wait and see if any other editors here agree with your conclusion. In the meantime, your are editing against consensus by removing information from a source which has otherwise been deemed reliable. -- Levine2112 19:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent)I simply disagree with the conclusion of your analysis (that the Oxford Book of Health Food is not a reliable source). This is not the conclusion of my analysis. The conclusion is the following: I submit that these authors included homeopathy anecdotally with no accounting of implications of their inclusion of the subject only as a means of illustration and not to assert any prominence. As was stated before, you are falsely claiming consensus. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And as I stated above: "Prominence, as you are using it, is not part of Misplaced Pages's guidelines for inclusion. However, please note that the info about Deadly Nightshade being used as a homeopathic remedy is giving "prominence" by being described in the source, The Oxford Book of Health Food." Clearly, we disagree. Take it to WP:RSN or wait for more opinions here. As it stands now, you are the only one making this objection to the source. Everyone else appears to be okay with the source; hence, consensus. -- Levine2112 20:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And as I stated above, WP:PROMINENCE is part of Misplaced Pages policy. The source is not giving prominence to homeopathy as it pertains to deadly nightshade. WP:RSN is irrelevant to this discussion because it's not about the reliability of the source but rather about the prominence of the subject. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:PROMINENCE is an invention of your own which is merely a redirect to WP:UNDUE. What in UNDUE do you feel is violated or not met by the given source. Please quote directly from the policy when possible. -- Levine2112 20:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:PROMINENCE links to policy which uses the term. Undue weight demands that we assess the prominence of a claim with respect to the subject. This assessment was completed above and there was no dissent on the content of the analysis. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. If you want to claim that a belief in the effectiveness of homeopathy is a minority view, then fine. According to UNDUE, views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. However, we are not dealing with the "effectiveness" of homeopathy here (other than saying the majority scientific view of it) but rather talking about its usage. Its usage is not a minority view. This is established by being discussed in a source as prominent as The Oxford Book of Health Food. -- Levine2112 20:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have shown above that the prominence of homeopathy with respect to this plant is not asserted by the source. Since there is no assertion of prominence, there can be no claims of any prominence for the importance of homeopathy to this plant. Therefore, without any prominence, the policy clearly implies removal of the statement. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

And I have shown that prominence is met by being mentioned in a reliable source. Further, I believe that the weight we are giving the treatment of the homeopathy usage in this article is in accord with the weight it is given in the source. -- Levine2112 20:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Simply being mentioned in a source does not mean the source asserts prominence for the thing being mentioned. Since the source asserts zeros prominence the appropriate mention here is zero. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That's where we disagree. That is why I am suggesting WP:3O. -- Levine2112 21:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and file one. Since you haven't been able to respond to my arguments, it is up to you to find someone who can. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. You are the one presenting the issue and as no one else seems to agree with you, you should therefore go elsewhere and see if your rationale holds water. As it stands now, it appears that no one agrees with your rationale here. -- Levine2112 21:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Since you cannot respond to my idea for whatever reason, it is up to you to find someone who agrees with your disagreement. Simply saying "I disagree" and not providing a commentary on the statement made but instead referring to other unrelated discussions is obstructionism. Good luck finding an advocate. I'll be here waiting. As it looks right now, no one disagrees with my analysis as presented above. You haven't been able to document your objections beyond fallacies and vague innuendo. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

No. You are simply refusing to recognize that I have responded to your rationale in full. Once again here it is: Prominence, as you are using it, is not part of Misplaced Pages's guidelines for inclusion. However, please note that the info about Deadly Nightshade being used as a homeopathic remedy is giving "prominence" by being described in the source, The Oxford Book of Health Food. Also, User Cobaltbluetony has discounted your rationale at Talk:Rue. -- Levine2112 21:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You haven't responded to any part of my analysis, have mischaracterized it on no fewer than four occasions above, have ignored the fact that the word prominence is used in the WP:PROMINENCE policy, have not dealt with the anecdotal nature of the context in which homeopathy is described, have not dealt with the arbitrary nature of the inclusion of homeopathy, have falsely claimed consensus where there was none, and remanded a discussion to WP:RSN which had already been archived. That's a tall order of obstructionism you are building. Cobaltbluetony is not active here in this discussion and his contributions at another page have no bearing on this conversation until such time as he decides to discuss here. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have responded, if I mischaracterized it it wasn't intentional, I have not ignored that "prominence" is used in the WP:UNDUe policy but I don't think it means what you think it means, I have said that the context of homeopathy int he book is not arbitrary but rather lends itself to prominence, I have claimed consensus because you are the only one disagreeing with the source now, and I have suggested RSN and other 3POs as merely a way to help solve this dispute per WP:DR. There is no obstruction as you claim and Cobaltbluetony's input at Talk:Rue is highly relevant here because it is virtually an identical situation using the same source. Please bear in mind that above I asked you: What in UNDUE do you feel is violated or not met by the given source? Please quote directly from the policy when possible. I really believe that if you answer this and quote from policy and apply those quotes to your rationale, we all will be on better footing in understanding your position. As it stands now, it doesn't appear that your rationale is inline with WP:UNDUE. -- Levine2112 21:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that prominence means that some topics are prominent with respect to subjects of articles and other topics are not. I am not disagreeing with the source; I am characterizing the source. I await response from you with regards to these issues. So far, you haven't explained why my analysis is incorrect. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that by only giving its homeopathic use as brief of a mention as we are, we are in line with giving the correct prominence/weight with respect to the subject of this article. This prominence/weight is determined by the source which gives the homeopathic use of Deadly nightshade similar prominence/weight in its content. That's my response regarding these issues. That has always been my response. For that reason, I believe that your interpretation of prominence is wrong and thus your analysis is incorrect. I don't believe that it is possible to spell this out any more clearly, though somehow I feel that I will be re-explaining this to you several more times until you finally concede, "Yes, Levine2112, I recognize that you have responded to my analysis and told me why you think it is incorrect." At which point, I hope you will either agree with my response (in a perfect world) or we can seek some alternate form of dispute resolution - such as WP:3O, mediation, WP:RFC, etc. - as I have been suggesting to you for the past couple of days. -- Levine2112 05:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Still not dealing with the substance of the analysis above. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy removal justification - break

The source does not assert the prominence of anything, so it is not logical to exclude everything not specifically noted as prominent. The prominence can be gauged by the space given to each use. The space we have given over to it is not out of line. Furthermore, just because they have not declared their reason for mentioning homeopathy in only certain plant articles does not mean that they have chosen these at random. It would be more reasonable to assume that the mention occurs in those plants where the homeopathic use is more important for some reason. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that we should be using the "space" as proxy for prominence because it is my contention that the authors and editors were not careful in their allocation of space. This can be seen from the motley collection of plants that mention homeopathy compared to those that do not. As editors, we need to have a better rationale for inclusion than "these two editors thought it was important for some reason." I have attempted, through reading the source and what it has to say about homeopathy, to understand what the rationale is. My analysis above indicates that it was probably initially to include claims of health benefits for certain foodstuffs not made in other contexts but degenerated into mere mention as anecdotal discussions. I have yet to see someone who has actually given evidence of reading the source explain to me how this interpretation is incorrect. Therefore, I argue that the source doesn't do a good job of asserting the prominence of homeopathy to the subject. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Because Levine2112 politely asked me to come here to explain my edits, I'll do so. Since Homeopathy requires multiple dilutions to the point that the only molecules remaining in solution is water itself (unless it's alcohol being used) and a possible few glass molecules from the container, mentioning that a plant (or Berlin Wall) is used in Homeopathy is giving undue weight to a fringe therapy, because in fact it's not in solution any more. Otherwise, Glass will require a section on Homeopathy. I would consider supporting an edit that met the following conditions:

1. No mention of any clinical effect, either presumed or unsupported by any clinical evidence, unless it is supported by reliable sources (I know none exist).
2. There are verifiable sources that state it is used in Homeopathy. A book doesn't count, because unless you have access to a major library, it's hard to prove. Commercial websites are inappropriate.

OK, I've participated in this discussion. Can we move on? OrangeMarlin 22:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin, thanks for your response. I would like to address both of your issues as follows:

1. In the version current in place, these no mention of any clinical effect. There is mention of what it is used to treat and then it says that there is no experimental evidence to support such use. This information all come from us from The Oxford Book of Health Foods, a source deemed reliable for this content at WP:RSN.
2. The Oxford Book of Health Foods does verify Deadly nightshade's use in homeopathy. I don't know why you feel it shouldn't count simply because it is a book. What would Misplaced Pages be without reliance on books as source. Further, please note that the reference includes a link to GoogleBook where you can read the source page from this book.

-- Levine2112 23:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Orangemarlin: As you requested, here are "verifiable sources that state it is used in Homeopathy."

U of SF - those most commonly used in the treatment of headache pain are belladonna , Belladonna and Bryonia are classic homeopathic remedies often used for an inflamed appendix,

Written by a homeopath. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a University Medical Center. That a homeopath wrote it is OR on your part. Anthon01 (talk) 16:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

University of Maryland Medical Center, Ear infection - , Belladonna - for throbbing headaches that come on suddenly , Infantile colic - , sinus congestion and headache - and 28 more - ,

Sourced from a hoomeopath. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources include "Barnett ED, Levatin JL, Chapman EH, et al. Challenges of evaluating homeopathic treatment of acute otitis media. Pediatr Infect Dis J . 2000;19(4):273-275. and Friese KH. Acute otitis media in children: a comparison of conventional and homeopathic treatment. Biomedical Therapy . 1997;15(4):462-466. and Jacobs J, Springer DA, Crothers D. Homeopathic treatment of acute otitis media in chiildren: a preliminary ransomized placebo-controlled trial. Pediatr InfectDis J . These are clearly non-homeopathic sources. Anthon01 (talk) 16:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

University of Chicago Medical Center , Oregon health and Science University , University of NH , Cedar-Sinai - Urinary Tract Infection - , Uof T Medical - Belladonna (Deadly Nightshade) is used when the classic symptoms of inflammation are present: pain, heat, erythema and swelling. , Cornell U. - throbbing headache , , MedlinePlus - helps in IBS - , Nat Cancer Inst - Dictionary - exhibits antiinflammatory activity -, Clinical Trials.gov - ongoing study -

These are independent articles which discuss homeopathic belladonna a.k.a. deadly nightshade. Anthon01 (talk) 22:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Those that are independent are not talking about homeopathy. The rest are written or directly quoted from homeopathic literature. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The standard you set is impossible to reach. The University of Maryland references some homeopathic sources but also includes Barnett ED, Levatin JL, Chapman EH, et al. Challenges of evaluating homeopathic treatment of acute otitis media. Pediatr Infect Dis J . 2000;19(4):273-275. and Friese KH. Acute otitis media in children: a comparison of conventional and homeopathic treatment. Biomedical Therapy . 1997;15(4):462-466. and Jacobs J, Springer DA, Crothers D. Homeopathic treatment of acute otitis media in chiildren: a preliminary ransomized placebo-controlled trial. Pediatr InfectDis J . 2001;20(2):177-183. What is wrong with these references? Anthon01 (talk) 14:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Not every source on homeopathy references homeopathic sources. We have to be careful in articles that are unrelated to homeopathy that we do not use homeopathic sources. That's why the OUP source deserved careful analysis. However, it still failed to establish the prominence of homeopathy with respect to deadly nightshade. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop editwarring

I challenge one of you editwarriors to revert to the version that you don't favor and then discuss instead of reverting. I especially challenge this edit summary as being perhaps the most ironic of the month. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the version left by PouponOnToast is an appropriate one to leave up while the issues are discussed more fully on this page. It's worth bearing in mind that Misplaced Pages is not the private property of individual editors. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally think the version that excludes the homeopathy reference (which is given undue weight - the reference work talks about lots of other stuff in much more depth than homeopathy, but none of that is mentioned at all) but includes the content tag is the right version, but I'm not edit warring. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Poupon --DrEightyEight (talk)

On the plus side, this way round, people can easily check the reference for themselves while we discuss it. Stephen B Streater (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• My rough sense of the above debate is that SA has stated reasons for deleting certain material, and Levine has stated reasons for keeping it, but they are not addressing the same points; as if I were to argue, "x=3" and you argue "but y=4". Both reasons to keep, and to delete, can be valid, e.g. "delete because false" and "keep because sourced" (the source may have a factual error contradicted by other sources). The solution is to address specific single points, one at a time. I have no doubt that both SA and L are sincere in promoting the content. Disputatio pro consensum! -- Ptolemipiters Pete St.John (talk) 22:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

My sense - and please correct me if I am wrong - is that SA's side of the debate deals with "prominence" and how it relates to WP:UNDUE. My thought is that UNDUE doesn't apply like SA thinks it does. It would be one thing if we are including content which says that Homeopathic remedies with Deadly nightshade are effective cures for such and such. In that case, we would be representing a minority view. However, we are merely saying that homeopathic remedies with Deadly nightshade are used to treat such and such, and further there is no experimental evidence to support such treatment. This seem highly aligned with the majority viewpoint. Further, since we are only dedicating a small mention of DN's use in homeopathy, we are even that much more aligned with WP:UNDUE since we are not making it appear that this use is more significant than some other use. So I don't necessarily think we are dealing X and Y (or Apples and Oranges as it were). Rather, I feel I fully understand SA's argument, but I just don't think they are aligned with Misplaced Pages policies. -- Levine2112 23:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The {{content}} tag has been removed by User:TheDoctorIsIn in this edit. Is this a violation of article probation? PouponOnToast (talk) 17:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy Probation

Please note the new warning tag at the top of this page. Let's be constructive --DrEightyEight (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

constructive

this is WP, and we include what the world thinks important, not what the world ought to. That the world might use this plant as a homeopathic remedy, or use anything as a specific homeopathic remedy for that matter, is in my view utterly absurd. There is no possible way of aligning such use with the rational knowledge of biology and chemistry, or accommodating it within a scientific world view. The world, unfortunately, does not have a scientific world view exclusively. It is possible that the people who feel the way SA and I do, who would utterly reject homeopathy, might even be in a minority. I suspect most people who have heard of it would say something like, well, we might as well try it. This is altogether deplorable at many levels, and very disheartening. we will have to educate them, and it seems--as it always does to educators--very difficult and frustrating to do so. It is so much less frustrating to pretend we can just ignore them. None the less we are building is a comprehensive encyclopedia. Even if it were a scientific encyclopedia, and adopted a SPOV explicitly, it would still cover the fact that homeopaths use what they think of as a preparation from this plant. all the more reason for us to do so, with the proper citations, which seem to be forthcoming. I cannot see the point of pretending that all people think the way I do. We have to tell people what the medical cults do, or they will not believe us when we talk about scientific medicine. DGG (talk) 05:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I am in utter agreement with you DGG. I too don't believe in homeopathy, but like you I recognize that Misplaced Pages is not a scientific POV exclusive encyclopedia but rather a NPOV comprehensive one. That's why - despite my personal beliefs about homeopathy - I am defending the "right" of content about homeopathy to be present in articles such as this one with respect to WP:UNDUE. This means that it shouldn't be given too prominent of a mention if it isn't too prominent of a subject within the topic. Prominence need not me a subjective idea which Misplaced Pages editors guess-timate. But rather, prominence of a subject to a Wiki article's subject can be determined by the prominence the subject is given in a reliable source about the Wiki article's subject. In this case, Deadly nightshade's homeopathic use in the Oxford source is given a couple of sentences in the Oxford Book of Health Foods article which is several paragraphs long. Likewise, our mention of the homeopathy in the Misplaced Pages article should be in similar proportions. I believe how we have the article written currently fully meets this prominence proportion and thus satisfies WP:UNDUE. -- Levine2112 05:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

DGG, you are making too much sense here. To do otherwise would be censorship. This project is about all knowledge not just scientific knowledge. Your statement "This is altogether deplorable at many levels, and very disheartening. we will have to educate them, and it seems--as it always does to educators--very difficult and frustrating to do so. unfortunately sounds too similar to the talk of religious fundamentalist. For some science is a religion. Anthon01 (talk) 06:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

DGG, you have unwittingly (probably because you haven't been keeping up with the discussions) made an argument that has already been through the ringer and come out the other end. The issue isn't whether homeopathy is bunk, the issue is that the use of the plant in homeopathy is not verifiable except to homeopathic sources and, since that is the case, we need to have a source which indicates that the use of the plant in homeopathy is relevant to the plant itself. How is this done? By finding a source that states it as such. For example, a source that said "The homeopathic remedies that use this plant in preparation are often the only way people come in contact with this plant's name" or "The homeopathic remedies that use this plant are more popular than the confirmed medical uses". There are any number of ways to establish the prominence of homeopathy with respect to this subject. But it needs to be established by a reliable, independent mainstream source. Once this is done, then there is no issue, homeopathy gets mentioned on the page. See domesticated sheep for an example of how this is done. So far, the people promoting inclusion of homeopathy have pointed to one single solitary source that qualifies as reliable, independent, and mainstream, but the source does not indicate the prominence of homeopathy to the plant. In fact, it seems like a haphazard mention without justification. I evaluated the source above. So far, no one has disputed this analysis. So, the removal of homeopathy from this page proceeds until someone finds a source that makes a claim of prominence of homeopathy to this plant. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You've made your arguments; they have been rejected by some, embraced by others. But your opinions certainly have not been embraced as policy. Rather, they are at the center of a raging dispute that has caused this article probation. Making ridiculous claims like 'no one has disputed this analysis' just makes your comments look absurd. As does your unilateral declaration that you shall be the sole judge of what are acceptable sources, especially after discussions about this topic at the reliable sources noticeboard went completely against your bizarre opinions. Dlabtot (talk) 15:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Willikers! I read this whole page and its counterpart on Rue. . . also read undue weight policy. . . fringe policy. . . souring policy. . . Scienceapologist's opinion is not grounded. Why is one stubborn editor allowed to make such a stink on such a minor bit of info?TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 17:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

That one editor or a group or engaged in blocking RS info to be added could be construed as disruptive editing. Additionally I direct your attention to the following RS/N NPOV/N and finally to here where the moderator reiterates a sentiment that I have often repeated, that we are not writing a science encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthon01 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess while reading this page I overlooked the dispute banner thingee. . . what do I do?TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 17:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

At minimum, apologize to Science Apologist for calling him "stubborn," and reinsert the content tag, and avoid edit warring or be incivil. At best, revert to the version you do not prefer, apologize to Science Apologist for calling him "stubborn," and never edit war or be incivil. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I did research and Scienceapologist made his edits after the banner thing went up. . . Why did you take it easy on him but are putting me through the ringer? Why not ask him to revert to the version he does not prefer? What is a content tag? Scienceapologist. . . sorry.TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 18:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

He did not remove the disputed tag or call you "stubborn." The content tag is the template you removed that said {{content}}. It is much like the welcome template you added here. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

If you believe someone has violated the Article Probation, you should report it on WP:AN/I. One thing you should not do is allow yourself to be drawn into an argument meant to distract from the issue. Dlabtot (talk) 18:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I beleive Scienceapologist and Orangemarlin have violated the probation and they should be reported them to AN\I much like I was. . . the difference being that this was my first edit here. . . they have been editwarring here for some time now.TheDoctorIsIn (talk) 18:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You have a point, TDII, but you must choose you battles. I think it was big of you to apologize for the uncivil characterization and that goes a long way in my book. But yes - in theory - I agree with you that edit warring seemingly violation the probation this article is currently under. -- Levine2112 20:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not see an apology from TDII. Could you provide a diff? PouponOnToast (talk) 20:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure. 18:04, 31 January 2008. -- Levine2112 21:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess that's a baseline apology. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It is light-years more than I have heard going the other way. We need to encourage such behavior and not characterize it as "baseline". -- Levine2112 21:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Please note

I have made a detailed analysis of the way that the reference on Health Foods handles all cases of homeopathy. It is clear that they do not consider homeopathy prominent. By WP:FRINGE and WP:PROMINENCE we are therefore justified in excising homeopathy from this article. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

What reference on Health Foods? Anthon01 (talk) 20:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:RTFA. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again, the mere fact that the Oxford Book of Health Foods includes the homeopathic use of a substance in a short characterization of the substance clearly establishes "prominence". WP:WEIGHT is therefore satisfied by including mention of its homeopathic use in proportion to how it is described in the source. -- Levine2112 20:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion is not the same thing as prominence. You can read the difference between the two concepts in most if not all English dictionaries. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

That's was a pretty uncivil comment, SA. Not only does it misrepresents my statements (I'm saying that inclusion establishes prominence), it is also condescending and impugns my intelligence. I expect that PoupOnToast will be warning you about this as well. -- Levine2112 22:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion doesn't establish prominence. They are totally different ideas. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

This is Probation?

This article does not appear to be under probation. Blatent personal attacks, edit warring and tag removal are going around without sanction. I suggest this article be placed on 1rr, and that any further, even borderline violations of basic civility result in unappealable 1 month bans. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

That's your opinion. There are approximately 3-4 editors who watch over NPOV. There are a huge number of POV warriors. We'd lose under your scenario. I suggest that Homeopathy promoters get 1RR in total. That should work for me.  :) OrangeMarlin 19:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the use of "POV warriors" is in effect equivalent to "POV pusher" and thus is an uncivil term to use; especially given the probationary status of this article. -- Levine2112 20:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Turning this on its head

So let's see what would happen if we applied the remove prominence argument to conventional medicine. I think we have already had reported that 59.000 homeopathic "doses" of belladonna were removed from circulation by the US government. What evidence do we have that conventional medicinal uses reach anything like this level? Perhaps the conventional use is the insignificant one. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:33, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to counter or support an argument that makes no sense. What are you saying or suggesting? OrangeMarlin 19:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a new argument. Are you trying to say that homeopathy is prominent wrt Deadly Nightshade because of the 59,000 doses? If so, where's your source? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Have we seen any article say that conventional medicine is prominent wrt deadly nightshade? We know that 59,000 doses of homeopathic solution were withdrawn because of contamination fears. It is at least conceivable that the homeopathic use exceeds all medical uses. Where would that put the medical/homeopathic balance in the article? Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The sources which indicate that the plant is used in conventional medicine actually document the use of the plant or an extract from the plant. However, there is no indication that this use happens in homeopathy. It's comparing apples and oranges. Remember, WP:PROMINENCE applies to minority opinions. The opinion of the modern medical community is not a minority opinion. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You can make a bronze statue by carving a wax one, covering it with clay, melting the wax, pouring it out, filling the clay with bronze and then washing away the clay. Although no wax is left, wax was used in the manufacture of the statue. So the absence of any deadly nightshade in the homeopathic remedy does not imply that it was not used in the preparation of the remedy. Although the use of homeopathic remedies is a minority view, the fact of its use is a majority view, and so not subject to the minority section in WP:PROMINENCE. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you arguing that water memory is like making a mold? If so, where is your evidence that this works like this? Are you arguing that an article on wax should include mention the creation of bronze statues? This argument is beginning to sound more and more stretched: as though you are reaching for rationale. You admit to homeopathy being a minority view, which implies that WP:WEIGHT comes into play, but then contradict yourself and claim it is a "majority view" in the "fact of its use". Huh? It's either minority or majority. The fact that pseudoscience "exists" is a "majority view". Does that mean every article on science should mention pseudoscience without regards for undue? Grasping at straws, methinks. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The question is more whether there should be a 'uses of wax' section in wax. This is analagous to there being a uses of deadly nightshade section here. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't quite work that way because making a mold isn't a fringe theory. Let's take a better example: let's say that astrologers used channeled wax to make ouija boards. Would you want to include this in the article on wax? When does WP:UNDUE apply if not for such occasions? ScienceApologist (talk) 02:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Or even more analogous would be a "uses" section in an article on a particular type of wax which was indeed uses for casting molds of bronze statues (there are many kinds of wax just as there are many kinds of plants). Regardless, I believe that SBS's point has been clearly stated. -- Levine2112 23:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

But it doesn't quite work because mold making is not a fringe theory. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Excellent point! -- Levine2112 20:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Clarity

ScienceApologist is still maintaining that no one has dealt with his argument regarding the Oxford Book of Health Foods source. He's latest edit summary in his edit war insists: please see talk. No one has responded to the arguments made. I feel that I and others have responded to his arguments ad nauseum. What I want to find out from others here is:

1. Is there any other part of his argument which hasn't been responded to? If so, what?
2. Does anyone agree with ScienceApologist's rationale that if we are to include mention of the homeopathic use in this article then the source must assert "the prominence of homeopathy with respect to this plant"? If so, which Misplaced Pages policy supports such a rationale? And if so, do you feel that the source doesn't assert prominence to the homeopathic use of this plant merely by mentioning that there is a homeopathic use of this plant but rather should go on to explain specifics about "the prominence of homeopathy with respect to this plant"?

Thanks. -- Levine2112 20:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

When someone makes a nonsensical argument, you reply by pointing out it is nonsense. If they repeat that argument an additional 4000 times, it is not actually necessary to make 4000 additional replies. He took his nonsensical assertions about 'prominence' to the reliable sources noticeboard where they were rejected. Then to the NPOV talk page where they similarly failed to gain support. My advice o all editors is to relax, be calm, and be patient when it comes to seeing how article probation works out.Dlabtot (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. But what do you do when that same editor uses his unsupported logic and effectively blocks anyone from including content else wise? We've reached an impasse. Perhaps an RFC is the next step. Everyone okay with that? -- Levine2112 02:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, when talk page discussion has reached an impasse, an RfC is appropriate. Hopefully, if there is an RfC, already involved editors will refrain from disrupting it by arguing with every outside respondent who disagrees with their already stated position. Dlabtot (talk) 02:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Speaking about me in the third person is rude. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Guys, please stop focusing on each other's conduct; it's not helping to solve the dispute. As a user previously uninvolved in this article, I have said that SA's argument makes sense to me. The way forward, as I say below, is to find sources that specifically say deadly nightshade is an important material in homeopathy. Without sources that support that specific assertion, homeopathy shouldn't be mentioned in this article. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Close, but not quite. We need a source that says that homeopathy's use of nightshade is prominent with respect to nightshade. We can find plenty of homeopaths claiming that hundreds of plants are important to them. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Other editor's response

Editors other than SA, please respond to my questions here. Thanks all. I hope this lends tome clarity to this debacle. -- Levine2112 21:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate to have a place for editors "other than SA". You don't have the right to ban me from talkpage sections, do you? ScienceApologist (talk) 21:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not banning you from anything. I am seeking clarity on how others feel about your argument and not how you feel about your argument. I am hoping that this will help resolve this dispute. -- Levine2112 21:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why that precludes me from responding here. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You know what? Do what you you like. I'm only trying to help resolve this dispute. You actions here are disruptive to the process. So post where you want. -- Levine2112 21:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Small victories and all. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

That's not my rationale, Levine. My rationale is that the source is not asserting the prominence of homeopathy with respect to this plant but instead is mentioning it in passing, anecdotally, much the same way someone writing an article on the Earth might mention modern belief in a flat earth in passing, anecdotally without asserting its prominence. The analysis shows that the authors do not investigate homeopathy even to the point of lacking a definition of the subject. It seems that they began including homeopathy to contextualize certain health-benefit claims for certain plants but then sometimes just threw anecdotal mention of homeopathic remedies without any systematic rationale. The fact that the five plants mentioned are not singled out by any other group with respect to homeopathy makes me believe that they simply were not interested in asserting prominence of homeopathy with respect to the plants. Indeed, they had a different editorial goal than we do at Misplaced Pages. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again, the mere fact that the Oxford Book of Health Foods includes the homeopathic use of a substance in a short characterization of the substance clearly establishes "prominence". WP:WEIGHT is therefore satisfied by including mention of its homeopathic use in proportion to how it is described in the source. It seems that you are making a generalization about the authors of the book based on your own WP:OR. Regardless, the authors found the homeopathic use of these substances prominent enough to mention in their respective articles. I really don't understand why you feel that the authors need to define what homeopathy is. I agree with you in that the authors included homeopathy to contextualize certain health-benefit claims for certain plants. That's exactly what we are doing here. -- Levine2112 21:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

No, the mere fact of mentioning something does not establish prominence. I can mention a number of reliable mainstream authors who mention the modern flat earth adherents in anecdotal passing when discussing the vagueries of planet Earth. That does not mean they were asserting prominence. I am making an analysis of the authors use of homeopathy based on their book, so it's not original research, it's simply looking at how the idea is used. The fact that the authors don't even bother to define homeopathy is telling: it means that they didn't think it important. This strikes a major blow for anyone trying to say that they though homeopathy is prominent with respect to these plants since they don't care to even say what homeopathy is beyond a throwaway, non-descriptive definition. The authors may have wanted to include a broad range of claims from the prominent to the silly in their book. I don't know, I'm not sure what the authors motivations were. However, it is clear that they were not asserting that homeopathy was prominent with respect to these plants. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you please quote from WP:UNDUE where you feel it suggests that a source must assert "prominence" on a topic with respect to an article in order to include the topic in an article? Thanks. -- Levine2112 21:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll do even better. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

That didn't help me before to understand your point. What I am asking for is a direct quote from WP:UNDUE which supports your argument about prominence. That's all. I don't need your rationale to go along with it. Just the specific quote. -- Levine2112 21:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

A relevant section would be:

• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.

In this case, the viewpoint is vastly limited with respect to this mainstream topic. To show otherwise would be to provide a source which demonstrates prominence in the treatment of homeopathy with respect to this plant. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

As I and others have pointed out to you on multiple occasions, the fact that Deadly nightshade is used in a homeopathic remedy is not a viewpoint (held by a minority or a majority). It is a fact. Now then, if we were to say that homeopathic remedies with Deadly nightshade are effective for treating chronic fatigue syndrome then that would be a minority view. But we are not saying that. We are merely citing its use; and we even go one further and cite the majority view which that there is no experimental evidence to substantiate claims of effectiveness. So I think it should be clear why that portion of WP:UNDUE does not apply. Is there some other part of WP:UNDUE which you think may apply here? -- Levine2112 21:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The supposed "fact" of the "use" of deadly nightshade is the opinion of people who believe that water memory or some other pseudoscientific mechanism can somehow allow for the plant to be used in homeopathic remedies even when it is not present in said remedies. Hardly a fact. Nevertheless, it may STILL warrant inclusion in the article if we can just show that this point-of-view is prominent with respect to the subject of the article (that's why WP:UNDUE applies in the first place). An attempt was made to show that a health foods book asserted the prominence of homeopathy with respect to this plant. On close analysis, it was shown that the book only haphazardly referenced homeopathy and didn't seem to show that it was prominent with respect to any of the plants that had homeopathy mentioned in their articles. In fact, homeopathy was not duly considered by the book at all; they didn't even provide a working definition of the topic. So we're left with one solitary source which anecdotally mentions homeopathy in the same way that some goofy professor might mention the Flat Earth Society when writing an entry on the Earth. Hardly asserting prominence, just connection with anecdotes. That's all. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

We are going in circles here. I still feel that your analysis is without merit to Wikiepdia and groundless in these discussion. This is why I want to hear from others. So please sit back and let's see who agrees with your rationale as I summarized above. -- Levine2112 22:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like you haven't been able to answer me yet. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:38, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Simple

SA's argument looks pretty simple to me: The Oxford Book of Health Food only gives trivial coverage of deadly nightshade's use in homeopathy; therefore, this source doesn't establish that this is a prominent use of the plant. I find this argument convincing.

If deadly nightshade is an important homeopathic material, it should not be difficult to establish this by reference to non-trivial coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. It may be helpful to look at WP:NOTABILITY, which provides some guidance in regard to "trivial" vs. "significant" coverage. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Google search "Deadly nightshade" and uses yields as the first link The entire plant, harvested when coming into flower, is used to make a homeopathic remedy. This is used especially in cases where there is localised and painful inflammation that radiates heat. It is also used to treat sunstroke and painful menstruation.

Yeah, it is 'simple', however, there is no corresponding Misplaced Pages policy of 'prominence', WP:UNDUE is being misapplied, and I predict that he assumption that there aren't other sources that talk about this use of this plant will turn out to be completely wrong. Deadly nightshade is in reality used in homeopathic preparations; sooner or later Misplaced Pages will reflect this reality. How many blood vessels end up being burst between now and then is an open question. Dlabtot (talk) 02:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

If you think there are other sources, find them. It's not that hard, I think: this source says that belladonna was among the five most common medicinal products prescribed by homeopathic GPs in France: M Trichard, E Lamure, and Gilles Chaufferin, "Study of the practice of homeopathic General Practitioners in France," Homeopathy (2003) 92, p. 136.

The ibiblio site doesn't appear to have any editorial control. I don't think it passes WP:RS. On the topic of "prominence", SA's argument is well within policy: we don't write encyclopedia articles based on trivial coverage in other sources. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Start-Class plant articles
• Mid-importance plant articles
• WikiProject Plants articles