Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:02, 15 July 2005

Talk:José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero/Archive 1

Elimination of old comments

As this talk page was getting too long (at least according to the Misplaced Pages engine) I have decided to remove its oldest parts, because they refer to previous versions of the article and I believe they are of no use as to understand them it would be necessary to go back on time quite a lot. (Yes, it is true that SqueakBox is a refreshing air that is making us go back to the extremely-short version with a total lack of basic data.) Zapatancas 10:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

You can archive old talk but not delete it, especially not a selective deletion. That is clearly against the way things are done here where we have transparency, and could be considered an improper attempt to influence events here. Nevber just delete talk unless it is personal insults, etc, (ie unacceptable material). deleting something you don't like is not acceptable. The version we have is neither short nor totally lacking in info, though we do lack a certain amount of solid substance, what we lack we have never had. All I removed was the POV, the unencyclopedic material and the mass of duplication of material at Zapatero articles which, given the lowish content we have here, were very premature. Please stop trashing my user page, Zapatencas/SquealingPig. How is that going to help your case? An apology would be in order if you wish to keep working with me collaboratively. Your insults have been rude and boorish, and don't create a co-operative atmosphere, --SqueakBox 15:53, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Once again you SqueakBox have shown your bad faith. You say the page was not long when the very Misplaced Pages engine was telling so! If you think that it was better to archive it you could have made it yourself after informing a user who had informed of his action and did not know what was the usual procedure. You do not like cooperating with other people as is proved by your deleting my edits to the talk page, proving you do not want to recognize why are your real objectives. (That thing about selective deletion is amusing, what terrible bad faith!!) Zapatancas 09:13, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Besides, tell me what are the supposed parts I do not like of the talk page. Because if you take a lot at it you would see that after hundreds of discussions, of reverting edits, some people had to accept that what they believed to be "non-neutral" comments, where the pure truth. That was what happened. In fact, the real article was liked enough for the hundreds, probably, of people who accessed it because they want information not to create problems. Zapatancas 10:38, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

How can you say you have summarized well the article when there have been users who have said that your version is impossible to understand if you are not Spanish. Zapatancas 09:24, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

That was your version they were taking about, --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

It was your version it was talking about. I see you have been sly enough to remove the yet active comments. And you say I delete things after warning what had happened. You remove the comment about the plane crashed in Turkish because you say it was useless and Miguel say: It was a big scandal but it is true that it is dispatched in a line. Why in a line? Because you have removed the rest. Zapatancas 09:06, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Reviewing the wonderful changes of SqueakBox

I have the following comments about the changes made by the SqueakBox(if he has not made any of them, the comment has the same value):

• "The media perception during the congress was that Zapatero was the underdog to the other three candidates: José Bono, Matilde Fernández, and Rosa Díez." Explained it to me: what media? He was the favorite. The PSOE looked as if it had no future and he was the only renovation. Saying that Rosa Díez or Matilde Fernández had any chance of winning is really amusing.

I never said that, or added. What are you talking about? --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

• "He represented the New Way (Nueva Vía) faction, defined as modernising, whose ideology is inspired by Tony Blair's Third ". That is very fun. It is true: Iraq, approaching France, Zapatero's good relation with George Bush, everything proves you are right. What do not you become a clown? You would make people happy, ah, excuse me, I forgot you were not interested at that.

I never said that, or added. What are you talking about? --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

• " the implication being that crispación was a result of Aznar's style (and the PP's generally) both in the government and earlier on in its opposition to former PSOE leader Felipe González, which was described by the PSOE as arrogant and authoritarian. The People's Party had long blamed the sharp atmosphere on the scandals involving González's governments and the PSOE during González's last two terms (1989-1996)." Have you been frozen on time :-)? That thing of blaming the corruption with González is also a good joke. I think they blamed that Zapatero did not condemn those who attacked the Popular Party premises and thing like that. Are you trying to write a novel? You have imagination, you should try.

I never said that, or added. What are you talking about? --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

• "Zapatero also cooperated with the central government on some matters. For instance, he was the main proponent of the Pact of the Liberties Agains Terrorism, which was signed on December 8, 2000 ." It is written against. You are too used to making mistakes. Another thing that points that perhaps your mind is not well (this is not an offence not an insult, is simply to gather enough evidence to decide if you must be blocked or not).

I never said that, or added. What are you talking about? Withdraw your rude and uncollaborative comments about mental problems. Peersonal attacks are not allowed here, --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

• "In 2001, the Government reformed the University system through a law that changed its organisation. Zapatero opposed these reforms. In 2002 the Government reformed the system of unemployment benefits by decree (the so-called Decretazo). This included a redefinition of who were eligible for unemployment subsidies, arousing left-wing and trade union opposition. This was his first important clash ". Removing the background information about what was changed did certainly improve the article for the people who have not lived in Spain for the last ten years.

Great, --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

• I am not an expert on the sea but I believe this statement is a total falsety caused by bad faith: "In November 2002 the oil tanker Prestige, Spanish territorial waters off Galicia." According to the Spain article of the CIA world factbook Spain enjoys 12 nm of territorial sea, and 24 nm of contiguous zone. According to : "13 de noviembre de 2002. El petrolero "Prestige" navega cargado con 77.000 toneladas de fuel de mala calidad. Cuando se halla a unas 28 millas del cabo Fisterra sufre una importante vía de agua en medio de un temporal, quedando a la deriva con olas de 6 metros y vientos de fuerza 8." (Sorry, I have not time to translate). This shows the total lack of information you have and how manipulated you are.

I never said that, or added. What are you talking about? --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

• Estremadura is not at the South East of Spain. (Or perhaps if you are neutral enough it is). I klnow where Extramadura is. Check who put it in the wrong place instead of following the lazy path of blaming me. False accusations are no substitute for hard work,

You are lucky I have to leave. SqueakBox or you change your attitude or you will be blocked very soon. (And do not remove this as you did yesterday) Zapatancas 10:38, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Who is goping to block me. You? Cos i don't think anyone else will, mate, --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Zapatancas' false allegations have been removed. He is squealingPig, he is in Madrid, I am here in Honduras. It is easy to prove his allegations are false, but I am not bothering as everyone knows SquealingPig=Zapatancas, but if you replace the allegations I will report you for malicious and false personal attacks. If I had been SquealingPig I would need to have had 2 computers/IP addresses, because my IP was not blocked when SquealingPig was blocked. Some of his/Zapatancas edits were from an anon Madrid IP, --SqueakBox 15:14, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

If you are not SquealingPig I will not accuse you of being him but you cannot accuse me either. You say you have not been blocked. Have I? I do not know who believes your accusations. Perhaps are those who have spent months accusing an article of being not neutral, have removed it hundreds of times and never said what they considered that was not neutral. Zapatancas 09:20, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the article is perfectly neutral

Hello, i'm spaniard (from Albacete, Castilla-La Mancha, Quijote's land). ::I'm sorry because my english is very imperfect, but I wanted to express my opinion about our president.

Zapatero won the elections against expectations (as says the article), and taking advantages of the attack on Madrid. Nobody knew who were the responsibles, but Zapatero was already saying "It is islamic terrorism", even inventing that there were suicide terrorists, when it wasn't. On my opinion, he isn't preparated for be prime minister. He's ministers haven't any preparation (only Solves, of the economic ministery, wants to imitate the economic polityc of Aznar gobernement).

Zapatero criticized Irak's war, but now he sends troops to Haiti, India, and sells weapons to the ex-dictator of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez.

Thanks yo for reading me.

You say Chávez is ex-dictator of Venezuela. When, in your view, did he change his ways and stop being a dictator (as to how a democratically elected person can be a dictator is another question), --SqueakBox 22:37, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

See Adolf Hitler for a classic answer to that question. — Miguel 07:32, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Well, yes, take it to the Chávez page; controversial opinions about people not close to Zapatero (Aznar etc) seems a little dangerous here, --SqueakBox 15:34, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

Not that I meant that Chavez is like Hitler in any other way that thyey both got elected. I should rather take it to the page on Democracy. People forget that the people need to be vigilant, even if they are given the vote. — Miguel 21:01, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Recent changes (Zapatancas 14:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC))

I did not consider this comment to be neutral:

"Zapatero came to power having pledged to withdraw Spain's troops from the US-led coalition occupying Iraq, which he promptly did after taking office."

Maybe you consider what was there before to be more neutral:

Zaptero came to power by pleding to withdraw Spain's troops from the battle for Iraqi freedom.

— Miguel 06:39, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

because it is not exactly true (I have tried to reflect what he really said in Zapatero's foreign policy). Besides, I believe that its place is not the header of the artcile as it is reserved for very specific information. I have removed it as I consider the specific data about the withdrawl should be covered by the aforemontiend article about Zapatero's foreign policy.

Zapatero spent an entire year critizicing the US invasion of Iyaq, the subsequent occupation, and Spain's involvement. He made a campaign pledge to withdraw the troops (hence having pledged to withdraw), and when he was elected he said he would do so unless a UN resolution changing the legal situation was passed before June 30, 2004. He then withdrew the troops almost immediately after being appointed in April (hence promptly after taking office). To be sure, the decision has never been adequately explained, although it coincided in time with the first Najaf revolt and some clues have surfaced since. — Miguel 06:46, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

I also find non neutral this comment

"By becoming the main spokesperson of PSOE's parliamentary group and actively critizicing the government of José María Aznar, Zapatero used his seat in the Cortes to try to shift the focus of opposition from the media to the parliament."

I humbly think that it stinks of the typical socialist propaganda (what I respect). Besides, as the article is really divided into several sub-articles (namely: Zapatero's years as an opposition leader, Zapatero and the Local and Regional Elections of 2003, Zapatero and the 2004 General Election and Zapatero's domestic policy) I think those pieces of information so specific should be placed into them (to respect Misplaced Pages rules as those relating to not using too much space for minor items, compared to other more important). So I have included in the article Zapatero's years as an opposition leader the following:

According to some opinions, by becoming the main spokesperson of PSOE's parliamentary group and actively critizicing the government of José María Aznar, Zapatero used his seat in the Cortes to try to shift the focus of opposition from the media to the parliament

I think this is an error:

the scheme to transfer water from the River Ebro to the mediterranean coast

If I am not wrong, the transfer affected all Spain. For example it was supported by the Socialist governed Castilla La Mancha.

There was a country-wide Plan Hidrologico Nacional (National Hydrological Plan). The most contentious point was the long-sought (I have heard about the Ebro-Segura transfer since I was little) transfer of fresh water from the Ebro basin to the Segura basin for irrigation. — Miguel 06:55, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

I disliked also this comment:

vote but without a formal coalition, forcing himself to seek the support of other parties for every vote troughout the term. This was in line with his calm demeanor strategy and would intend to bring the parliament to the fore, but was criticised by the People's Party as leading to a weak government

Again, I think it reflects blindly the image Zapatero wants to project about himself. I have changed it to the following:

This is obviously what he wants to project about himself, because that is what he himself said in his first media interview the day after the election. I guess I'll have to dig up the quotations and just quote him instead of writing a more readable running text. — Miguel 06:55, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

According to his supporters, this was in line with his calm demeanor strategy and would intend to bring the parliament to the fore, but was criticised by the People's Party as leading to a weak government.

I have removed the following:

", and one of his first legislative initiatives was a law on gender violence"

as it was already stated some lines below.

I have also moved the information about the Ibarretxe plan to the article about domestic policy. Zapatancas 14:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The reason I expanded on the Ibarretxe Plan is because, to a native English speaker with a resonable knowledge of current affairs, the existing paragraph had no context and was probably unintelligible. — Miguel 06:55, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

There is some good material here (despite, or perhaps because of, the disputes), but (a) the subarticles (eg Zapatero's domestic policy) need structuring (headings etc); (b) they need to be better summarised in the main Zapatero article. Rd232 13:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Historical revisionism

• It should be noted that the above comment was by a know sockpuppet of a baned vandal, the vandal was baed from making extreme POV edits, see Captain Liberty (talk · contributions) and Cap. Freedom (talk · contributions)for refrence of some this users previous activity. --Boothy443 | comhrÚ 08:58, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I do not find wrong to include some references to what is thought by those who oppose Zapatero's withdrawal. However, I think the best place for them is the article Zapatero's foreign policy, and not the main article as they then would have too many space compared with other important points. I have seen that a user has removed a comment about Chamberlain, Munich and so on in Zapatero's foreign policy. In my humble opinion, it would have been better to change it than to delete it. Zapatancas 17:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Moral Clarity (talk · contribs)'s comments have been removed as is the hardbanned user JoeM (talk · contribs). Do not replace as he is not allowed to edit wikipedia. plwease delete anything of his in the future immediately regardless of content, --SqueakBox 17:01, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Zapatero excess articles

All the excess Zapatero articles have been brought back here without overweighing this article. The POV and unencyclopedic styles have, for the most part, bneen removed. Anti-Zapatero rhetoric cannot be allowed to dominate this article, --SqueakBox 19:52, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

You are very hard with other people edits. You do not look very tolerant, truly. SquealingPig

There was no need for more than one article, --SqueakBox 16:54, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

Instead of debating the issues Zapatancas (talk · contribs) created SquealingPig (talk · contribs) to vandalise and harrass, --SqueakBox 22:40, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

That is completely false. I have gone to your personal page and I have seen how you act. Why do not you ask an administrator to remove the "excess" articles, instead of rendering them useless? Do not answer, it is because you know that what you have done is absurd but, still, it is very amusing to vandalize articles inventing absurd reasons. I do not intend this as something offensive at all but I think that it is necessary for everybody that you will answer sincerely: are you mentally unbalanced? do you need psychiatric aid? Zapatancas 10:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

First Lady?

I see Sonsoles Espinosa listed as first lady in the infobox. There's no such thing as a First Lady in Spain, and in any case—even thought I am personally not a monarchist—that would be the Queen.

After all, the First Lady was traditionally of any importance only in the USA and translating the concept to other countries is a little strange. In Spain, Ana Botella, Aznar's wife, was the first wife of a prime minister ever to behave as a "first lady", and it is obvious that Zapatero and his wife Sonsoles Espinosa have no desire of going down the same road. — Miguel 06:35, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Ahem

The article states:

He called his strategy as Tranquil Opposition (Oposición Tranquila), based on a soft, constructive, open to dialogue attitude aimed not at achieving the best for the people. Zapatero's years as an opposition leader (and later as Prime Minister) has been a time of continuous radicalisation of the Spanish political life, a phenomenon also observed by some international media (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6733216/site/newsweek/). Zapatero took part several times in public demonstrations where small groups committed acts of vandalism in a limited fashion.

Considered extreme political tension (crispación) had been raging from about 1989, this paragraph gives the misleading impression that Zapatero was somehow responsible for it. Also, I really like the implicit attack in the line about vandals at demonstrations.

Finally, I am a little annoyed because I spent a while improving the English in the article only to have all my edits reverted and forgotten. The word tranquil is a very bad choice in English, even if it exists, and I did take care of that earlier. — Miguel 07:15, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Excuse me Miguel, but I think that you have not spent too much time of late in Spain because if not you would know what I am talking about (sorry if this sounds hard, but my English is limited to express it more softly and it is why I believe). If not you would never say that what is currently going on in Spain is the same that happened in 1989 or 1993. Some date:

• • A lot of People's Party premises were attacked after the Prestige and before, during and after the Iraq war. If you believe that had happened before please tell me when it happened.

• • A lot of People's Party rallies were spoilt by agent provocateurs. Popular leaders were insulted, booed, things were thrown at them when they took part in events directed to their supporters.

• • Think of what happened after the March 11 attack and, specially, during the reflection day. The law was not respected widely all over Spain. When had it happened before?

• • Even the attitude of certain media (e.g. the Cope) points to the radicalization. It is true they are not saints to believe that what they do is right or anything like that, but the radicalization of a radio station with one million as audience is quite significant.

• • In the last referendum about the European Constitution, it seems that 1 million of right-wing people voted against it, not paying attention to what the Popular Party had defended. A new symptom, if we take into account that a moderate party is losing an important sector as they want a stronger approach (that is, they have radicalized).

• • Not only that. It is something that is felt by the normal people. In 2002, I went to a private language school (academia, you know)to learn English and, after spending two or three weeks we talked about our interests in politics (you know to train our speaking skills). The result: nobody was interested in it. In June 2004, I went back to the same academia and after an hour of being there everybody knew what were everybody else's ideas.

• • As a final proof think of what has gone on in this article. How many times has been it removed because it was not neutral with nobody explaining what they believe to be not neutral. Take a look at the old comments.

• • Remember what happened to Bono in that sadly famous demonstration against terrorism. I do not know who was the culprit but a national minister had never been attacked before in those circumstances.

Yesterday (today is 10:53, 12 May 2005 (UTC)), Rajoy accused Zapatero during the Debate about the State of the Nation of being a radical. Rajoy can be wrong or not but, when has a prime minister called that in his first year? (All the press is saying that they are very worried because of what happened, the two parties have never been so separated.)

Perhaps the wording of the segment was not the best but it reflected something that was real, unfortunately. Regarding that about the vandalic demonstrations I can only say that it is true, so I believe that it must be included in the article.

To end, I do not mind if you called it "tranquil" or "calm". But why tranquil is bad? In Google you have 2,450,000 links. Zapatancas 10:53, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Gibraltar

You need to source all the water is Spanish re Gibraltar, it sounded like the harbour waters themselves werte Spanish, --SqueakBox 19:32, May 7, 2005 (UTC)

That is fine, Gibraltar is a red herring and a constant source of embarrassment for the posturing that surround it.

This is not explicitly covered by the Treaty of Utrecht.

The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.

But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kind of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the above-named propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction and without any open communication by land with the country round about.

Yet whereas the communication by sea with the coast of Spain may not at all times be safe or open, and thereby it may happen that the garrison and other inhabitants of Gibraltar may be brought to great straits; and as it is the intention of the Catholic King, only that fraudulent importations of goods should, as is above said, be hindered by an inland communications. it is therefore provided that in such cases it may be lawful to purchase, for ready money, in the neighbouring territories of Spain, provisions and other things necessary for the use of the garrison, the inhabitants, and the ships which lie in the harbour.

The ins-and-outs of international law regarding Gibraltar are for experts - there are a bunch of later treaties regulating it.

Gibraltar was again mentioned in the Treaty of Versailles (1783) but I can't find the text for that.

I believe it is a geographical fact that you can't reach the port of Gibraltar without crossing Spanish territorial waters, but I will source.

Well, according to the map on this page I was wrong. But the Tireless would have had to come into Gibraltar from the Suez Canal in order to avoid Spain's territorial waters. The page does quote Spain's reservations to the UN Convention to the Law of the Sea to the effect that Spain does not recognize Gibraltar any territorial waters:

In ratifying the Convention, Spain wishes to make it known that this act cannot be construed as recognition of any rights or status regarding the maritime space of Gibraltar that are not included in article 10 of the Treaty of Utrecht of 13 July 1713 concluded between the Crowns of Spain and Great Britain. Furthermore, Spain does not consider that Resolution III of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea is applicable to the colony of Gibraltar, which is subject to a process of decolonization in which only relevant resolutions adopted by the United Nations General Assembly are applicable.

With regard to point 2 of the declaration made upon ratification of the Convention by the Government of Spain, the Government of the United Kingdom has no doubt about the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over Gibraltar, including its territorial waters. The Government of the United Kingdom, as the administering authority of Gibraltar, has extended the United Kingdom's accession to the Convention and ratification of the Agreement to Gibraltar. The Government of the United Kingdom, therefore, rejects as unfounded point 2 of the Spanish declaration.

— Miguel 07:34, 2005 May 8 (UTC)

— Miguel 21:13, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Turkish crash

The crash of the Yak-42 was a huge political scandal, and still is, with accusations of politization flying in all directions just as with March-11. Please copy the text you deleted on this page, and I will try to provide some context.

Zapatancas

His vicious personal attack has been removed. I expect an immediate apology. If he replaces it or writes something equally nasty he will be repeorted, I am not far from trying an Rfc. His right wing views, which are found in all his encyclopedic writings, are very clear from his latest edits. Misplaced Pages is not a place to launch a passionate defence of the PP and an attack on Zapatero. Zapatancas appears to be a POV warrior trying to manipulate wikipedia for his own political ends. There is absolutely no nedd for excess articles, and particularly not excessa articles that Zapatancas won't let anyone else edit, --SqueakBox 14:19, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

You have had a negative attitude towards me since the beginning. Simply answer this questions:

• Why have you substituted an article impossible to find with a REDIRECT statement? If it is useless, why did not you ask an administrator to delete it? Have not you heard that every day hundreds of articles are deleted?

• What are those right-wing comments? That thing about Zapatero being the first Spanish prime minister talking to the French assembly? You have removed it, so it must be right wing.

• Excuse me, what are my recent right-wing edits? When I changed your mistake in the Aznar page because you have written "it's IX congress" but it should be written "its IX congress"? When I tried to help you correct that mistake in your talk page, you deleted it although it was clear that I only tried to help you.

• What is that passionate defence of the PP? An invention to hide your own radicalism?

• When have I not allowed other people to edit an article? When I removed their links from a Main article and I substituted them with nonsense REDIRECT statements? Oh, excuse me, was not it you who made that?

• Where is the attack on Zapatero?

You have insulted me calling me a POV warrior. Tell me only an example when I have deleted anything from an article. I expect an apology.

And this time answer the questions and answer them fast. Zapatancas 09:13, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I have recovered in a single article all the changes destroyed by SqueakBox. Let's see what excuses he uses this time to destroy it again. Zapatancas 09:38, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

To 80.102.6.36

Thank you for your contributions and especially for having cited your sources. It seems you want to demnostrate the existence of manipulation by the Popular government after the attacks. According to the NPOV policy, all theories must be reflected fairly and your theory is as valid as the one stating it was the anti-government groups who manipulated. I have made a series of changes, trying to preserve what you wanted to communicate, but also trying to make it look like what I believe it is, another theory. If you disagree with me, I am open to a sincere discussion. If you want to convince me anything I have written is wrong, please try to find new sources proving it or ask me to find them. I think we will finish sooner if we do that :-) Zapatancas 12:25, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I read your changes and it's OK. Thank you too.

NPOV

This article is hopelessly biased against Zapatero (my opinion is by Spaniards more patriotic to the USA than their ownm country and region). When I changed it I got loads of persoanl attacks, and am uninclined to reedit until the atmosphere of intimidation here improves. Don't remove the NPOV unless you can answer my objections, --SqueakBox 15:46, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

SqueakBox, I really thank you for the more peaceful approach you have shown of late. I believe your personal image would improve even further :-) if you instead of simply including NPOV signs also stated what you find to be not neutral.

It would also be interesting if you explained a little what means to be a Spanish patriot for you. I believed the Misplaced Pages was about saying the truth. The rest is not important.

To end I think that you should improve your way of communicating with other users. That thing of "This article is hopelessly biased...", is kind of offensive, you know. As the articles about neutrality say, it is better to explain clearly an opinion instead of using general adjectives.

Yours truly, Zapatancas 18:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC).

Compare This which is what we have now in the foreign policy section with this which is a later version of the foreign policyy article. This is not the only example. I would have my versions not yours here, and I believe I addressed the POV issues in my edits on May 1, so comparing the 2 versions will give an idea of my objections, SqueakBox 18:33, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, could not you be more specific? I am not too intelligent. If you do not give me (or other users) any further details I believe I will be unable to come to any conclusion. Zapatancas 18:52, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry but no. I did the work on May 1. I can change them to my version if you would like. But if you don't want to do the research or accept my version you will have to live with the NPOV for now. The cleanup notice would be easier to remove. Only José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero should be in black, not other statements not directly connected to his name, plus I had actually cleaned the foreign policy version and removed its cleanup template, but you insist on putting the uncleanedup text back in the article, SqueakBox 19:07, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

I do not know if you remeber, but "your version" was full of mistakes. In my opinion it is not enough to delete something, at least you should say why you did not like it.

Besides, the old foreign policy article included a sign asking it to be wikified . The tag used was {{wikify}} no {{cleanup}}. Zapatancas 19:20, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes but the blacking needs cleaning up too, which is why I put the {{cleanup}}: add the {{wikify}} and we get too many templates. Perhaps you can enlighten me to my mistakes in my version of the foreign policy article? I am scared that if I edit this article "mercilessly" we will just get into another huge conflict, --SqueakBox 19:31, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

The mistakes were in the "general" single article you created some weeks ago. I described some of them at the beginning of this talk page. Regarding the foreign policy article, I do not understand why you deleted that about Zapatero being the first prime minister in talking to the French assembly or the introduction about his foreign policy philosophy. Thank you for your positive attitude :-)Zapatancas 15:20, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

RfC

I noticed this article was listed on RfC. Speaking very generally, I see some areas where I think it needs some work, notably style and concision. Part of the challenge will be to balance the interest of the Spanish contributors in seeing a very detailed and complete text with the obligation to our general, non-Iberic readership to provide a succinct and manageable biography of the Spanish prime minister. To begin with, some of the material in the section The General Election of March 14, 2004 could profitably be moved to this article: Spanish legislative election, 2004. Would anyone object if I do this? Thanks, Viajero | Talk 11:54, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. In fact, I tried some weeks ago to create several articles to better distribute all the information but it seems that the decision was not too popular.

I do not mind if you move some thing about the Election to the specific article but I believed that the following should be kept in this article:

• • The creation of the Committee of Notables composed.

• • The announcement Zapatero made he would only become prime minister if the Socialist Party was the most voted political force.

• • The slogan and some of the promises.

• • That Zapatero blamed ETA at the first hours of March 11. H

• • That Zapatero has accused the Popular Party of lying about the authorship of the attacks and that he has been accused of telling the Spanish media that suicidal bombers had been found among the victims in the hours following the blasts.

• • The electoral result and that of "happy crowd gathered to celebrate the victory in front of the Socialist Headquarters cried to Zapatero: "Don't fail us!", "

Thank you.

Please, keep the part about Zapatero's Grandfather's will. It is an essential piece to understand Zapatero's ideology. Zapatancas 10:00, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

DNI?

I have just cast a shallow look, but I wonder why somebody thinks that the DNI number is interesting? Is it an interesting number as in the Ramanujan anechdote? A prime? --Error 21:25, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I see your point but if somebody has made the effort of including it, why somebody else cannot be interested in it? Where is the problem in including true information? Is the space available for the Misplaced Pages limited? (Do not dare say to me that the article is too long, say that to SqueakBox.)

I find it as interesting as what he had tonight for dinner. Unless it's a significative dish or it's somehow telling, it is not article-worthy. --Error 00:54, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand why it was removed the data about Zapatero's tobacco addition. I think those things are part of everybody's personality. Zapatancas 15:37, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey, leave me out of this, SqueakBox 16:48, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Another comment about the DNI. It could be used in the future for a researcher to find "official" information about Zapatero. I think it can be a very interesting data. Zapatancas 18:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Um. Maybe. But I don't know if this is the place for that information. --Error 00:54, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Clean Up

Can I clean up this article? A lot of the information is useless and the article needs to be streamlined considerably. I just got a message saying this is vandalism! Right now, this article will serve no one.

Who sent you the message. There is a troll on this page. We know who he is, and his rule over this page is shortly to end. The artiucle is a pile of crap, but he uses sockpuppets and nasty insults to get his way. By all means change anything you like, with my full and energetic support. Ya basta, SqueakBox 15:48, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

SqueakBox, I hope you were not talking about me when you use those unpleasent comments. In any case, I think you sometimes find difficult to be polite with other users.

Regarding the useless information and all that I would like to point out that what is absurd, boring and irrelevant for a person can be very interesting for other. (In Spain, for example, several books with hundreds of pages have been published about Zapatero. They have far more "useless" information than this article.)

One of the reasons that led me to try to contribute to the Misplaced Pages was to help others to understand Spain. It is really amusing to see the terrible amount of mistakes that is made by international media when they talk about Spain because they simply lack the basic knowledge about the country. For example, the article Alternet, 11 April 2005, "Zapatero Steps Up" (first year in office) (which can be accessed from the Zapatero article), claims that "Just days after the Socialists won the election, several of the autonomous regions announced a moratorium on one of the previous government’s most controversial measures: a law that required religious education in public schools." Public schools must provide religious education because of an international treaty (Concordato in Spanish) signed some decades ago by Spain and the Holy See that imposed upon the first that obligation. The law passed by the previous government had nothing to do with teaching the Catholic doctrine or not, as it simply had to respect the international treaties signed by Spain as the rest of the Spanish laws. In fact, it allowed students to choose not to study religion at all or to study other religion other than the Christian Catholic one. (If you do not believe me, find the Spanish law passed by the PP government at and look for "Disposición adicional segunda. Del área o asignatura de Sociedad, Cultura y Religión").

Because of that, I consider necessary to provide as much background information as possible to help the "real" users (that is, those who access the article to learn about Zapatero) to know and to understand everything they can be interested at.

Of course, I believe the information must be better organized than it is currently. But I am not to be blamed if SqueakBox destroys the "extended" articles created by other users by substituting them with absurd REDIRECT statement and by removing any reference to them that could make it possible for anybody to realize that they once existed. He should know that according to the creators of the Misplaced Pages, there is not space limit and I do not know who he believes he is to decide what other people can know or not.

Another curious fact about how you behave, SqueakBox, is that you have changed the Long NPOV tag (which asks users to report disputed passages in the talk page) with the normal NPOV tag, (which assumes there is already an existing discussion in it), without explaining (after almost a month) what you find not to be neutral!.

To end, I would like to say that the current version can be effectively considered a pile of crap. There is no mention to the influence of Zapatero's grandfather on his political believes (!), it includes mistakes like saying that "After graduating, Zapatero worked as a professor of constitutional law in the University of León until 1986" (as it was explained in a previous version, he continued to work some hours a week with no pay until 1991) or, according to it, the Tireless never happened (in Spain we spent almost a year being talked about it almost everyday).

SqueakBox: it is wonderful if you come to the Misplaced Pages to have some fun, but I think you should also try to make a better encyclopedia. Zapatancas 18:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I just cleaned up the Foreign Policy section. I think it reads much better now. I rewrote many of the sentences to confrom with standard prose, and I divided into subheadings so there is much more organization too. In the process, some redundant information was cleaned out too. Please let me know what you think.

I think you have made a good job. The only thing I found lacking was the information about Zapatero's promise of withdrawing the Spanish troops from Iraq during the political campaign. I believe it is important to make clear what Zapatero really promised and under what circumstances, because it is commonly believed that he had promised to recall them without any additional condition.

I have also recovered the Long NPOV tag because nobody has reported any disputed passage yet so it is still valid. (SqueakBox, please, think a little before making changes.) Zapatancas 09:14, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good to know that you liked the revisions. I think that some of the phraseology needs to be changed, but that very little information needs to be deleted. The info needs to be organized! That is why I am splitting stuff into smaller headings that will allow for people to browse the encyclopedia much more quickly. I did so for Domestic Policy now too, and I am in the midst of working on the language there too. Zapatancas, are you a native Spanish speaker? I am a native English speaker but I know Spanish, and I have noticed that many times you use words that are translated from Spanish but are a bit odd in nuanced English. You say "I think you made a good job." I'm assuming that you meant "did" instead of "made," but I understand that "hacer" is "hacer." It's great to have a Spaniard here though, if you are one, as you know much more about Zapatero than we do. But please don't be offended if I change sentences to fit with more colloquial/common ways of writing.

I think you have made a good guess (this time I have previously checked with Google that "made" is valid ;-)). Yes, I am from Spain. Don't worry about making changes, I am in favor of a cooperative approach. I also recognize that my English can improve a lot. In fact, one of the reasons why I decided to contribute to this article was I believed it could help me detect my mistakes. But it seems I was too optimistic. Zapatancas 15:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am slogging through the "Opposition Leader" stuff the same way I did for Foreign Policy and Domestic Policy. (Which reminds me, I still have to finish the second one). I hope to have it done by tomorrow.

Pbhayani

Reversing Work

Why are people reversing my work? I spent a lot of time subcategorizing and improving both the Domestic and Foreign Policies and it read a lot better. Someone reversed the whole thing. I'm out of here. There are other articles I can work on.

NPOV ultimatum

The NPOV tag was added on May 20, 2005. It has asked "to report disputed passages and terms on the talk page" for a month and two weeks. But nobody has reported anything.

I believe the honest work done in the Misplaced Pages must not be contaminated with stupid claims from crazy people who affirm other users want to kill them (who added the NPOV tag, incredible as it can seem, does things like that).

Because of this, I will remove the NPOV tag if nobody reports a disputed passage in a week from now . In my opinion, we must make clear that the Misplaced Pages is not a place where hooligans can do what they are not allowed in real life like making other people waste their time in stupid things.

If the NPOV tag is finally removed in a week and it is restored again without explaining what is considered not to be neutral, I will report that activity as vandalism. Zapatancas 6 July 2005 16:50 (UTC)

Please read Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks and stop attacking people you consider stupid. By making a very unpleasant atmosphere here you are denying others the chance to edit freely. Please withdraw your attacks otherwise how can we can engage in discussion. Also, who has been issuing death threats. this is a very serious charge. Can we please urgently see some diffs. I can't take your NPOV tag comments seriously while these other issues are outstanding, SqueakBox July 6, 2005 17:16 (UTC)

BTW adding an NPOV template is not vandalism, and you will merely make yourself unpopular, and give yourself a POV warrior reputation, if you make false vandalism reports. You have a history of doing vandalism yourself. Threatening to make a false report is just an empty threat, so I repeat, please desist from your personal attacks, SqueakBox July 6, 2005 17:20 (UTC)

I agree with your comments about hooligans. I don't think wikipedia should tolerate your behaviour, SqueakBox

Zapatancas and SqueakBox need to stop fighting about nothing. I just edited the entire article -- I believe it is much better organized and written. I removed the "Higher Standard" tag as it no longer applies. As I edited it, I did not encounter any bias, and I do not think there is one anymore. Zapatancas, do not worry about reversing my earlier work. It was a misunderstanding, and thank you for restoring it. Please let me know what you think of the article as a whole now. It is shorter but it is less redundant and can serve more people.

Pbhayani

SqueakBox, telling other people they must not make personal attacks is kind of hypocrite in your case, taking into account that you come to the Misplaced Pages only to attack other people. Furthermore, I think you cannot talk too much about popularity. I believe you must be the one who has had most clashes with other users than anybody else.

Modesty aside, I can affirm that most of the information now in the article was provided by me. If providing information is the kind of behaviors you do not tolerate I must say that you have defined yourself once again.

Regarding the article as it is now, I must say again that I like how it is written and that you, Pbhayani, have done :-) a good job again. It was people like you what this article needed from the beginning. Zapatancas 15:35, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but the people I clash with are the trolls (like SquealingPig (talk · contribs) who even you must agree was a nasty, trolling, vandalising sockpuppet) and never with the admins who try to keep this place troll free, NPOV, etc. I wonder why that is? My behaviour here is not censured because it is just fine. I don't happen to like trolls and POV pushers and those who persisently and unwarrantedly engage in personal attacks. If you want to accuse me of being SquealingPig again we will get a sockpuppet check (ie was it from Madrid or La Ceiba?). Okay? SqueakBox 17:23, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

BTW Well done Pbhayani for an excellent job. When I tried to clean up Zapatancas' English he reverted me so it is great sopmeone else has done both that and removed the POV, SqueakBox 17:30, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

First of all I would like to congratulate SqueakBox because nobody has killed him yet. Sure they got afraid with that death threat notice you posted in your user page.

I have to correct you because the only one who has fixed the other's English has been me. You deleted my message in your talk page when I tried to help you to improve how you write your own!!! language (as usual hiding information :-)). It seems you do not remember what you have done here. You destroyed several articles and now a lot of information cannot be accessed by interested users (those who come here to learn not to destroy others' work). It seems you do not like getting into contact with the admins, because it is their job to decide if an article must be deleted or not. Nobody should include absurd REDIRECT statements.

I must also warn you that this article is not devoted to present Zapatero as Superman as you would have wanted. It still contains the data you wanted so dearly to hide. So, it is still POV for you because you want the Misplaced Pages to reflect only left-wing ideas.

A question, do you live in Honduras because your family could not stand you any longer? Zapatancas 17:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)