Misplaced Pages

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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

9/11 conspiracy theories was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (No date specified. To provide a date use: {{FailedGA|insert date in any format here}}). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

9/11 conspiracy theories received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

This article was nominated for deletion on 11 August 2006. The result of the discussion was Speedily kept (nomination withdrawn).

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Theories

What the the criteria for a theory to be added to this article . There seemed to be alot of WP:OR ,WP:NPOV and WP:Nonsense here?Gnevin (talk) 18:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Can't someone reply to this , as far as i know this entire article could be deleted as per the above policy's Gnevin (talk) 20:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This article comes up as the second listing on Google's search for "9/11", don't even think about deleting it. Bofors7715 (talk) 00:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed true that the alternate opinions and theories of 9/11 range from scientific to paranormal, but this discrepancy does not negate the existence of those theories. An idea need not be backed up by fact nor provable to have an explanation on wikipedia. The Flying Spaghetti Monster has its own wikipedia page, and is without doubt pure fabrication. There are many who believe in a 9/11 conspiracy, and this page is here to explain that belief. We respectfully do not post conspiracy theory entries on the "official story" page, nor do we ask that it be deleted. The same favor in return would be appreciated. Wizzlepig (talk) 23:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

External Links etc

I cleaned out the external links section (pro and con). Misplaced Pages is not a link farm and many of the links fail WP:EL. The section was far too large for the subject and included videos of uncertain copyright status, links mainly intended to promote a website, sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject etc. In general, there was too much link farming going on. As you add links please make sure they follow WP:EL and that the section doesn't grow into another advocacy section. RxS (talk) 02:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This is an explanation I can live with.--Joseph.nobles (talk) 04:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Peer reviewed paper contradicting NIST

Just a heads up. I should have said "debunked" NIST but I'm not a physicist so don't want to make a judgement. This paper has been peer-reviewed and accepted for publication by a mainstream technical journal. They expect it to be published in around 3 months. Wayne (talk) 12:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Iraq Conspiracy Theory

CHENEY and others have suggested that Iraq had some part to play. I also believe that many americans believe this. It could be placed under 'Official Conspiracy Theory'. 03:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)~

This was discussed in the article but moved to a subarticle. While the the splitting of the articles has been more more organized then I anticipated this is the unfortunate effect I feared. Be that as it may he following is from the subarticle Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks

Immediately after the attacks, rumors began that Iraq could have played a role. The state-run Iraqi media praised the attacks but denied that Iraq was responsible.

On June 29, 2005 Robin Hayes, a Republican Congressman from North Carolina and vice chairman of the House Subcommittee on Terrorism at that time, stated "evidence is clear" that "Saddam Hussein and people like him were very much involved in 9/11". Senator John McCain reacting to the Congressman's statement said "I haven't seen compelling evidence of that" The 9/11 Commission Report stated that there is "no credible evidence" that Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq collaborated with the al Qaeda terrorist network on any attacks on the United States. In September 2006, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence concluded that "there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein had prewar ties to Al Qaeda and one of the terror organization’s most notorious members, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi" and that there was no evidence of any Iraqi support of al-Qaeda or foreknowledge of the September 11th attacks.

Despite this, a number of 9/11 opinion polls have shown that a significant minority of the American public believe that Saddam was "personally involved". NewsMax.com reported that people within and outside the U.S. government believed that then Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein conspired in the 9/11 attacks and the Oklahoma City Bombing. The theory extended from the one advanced by investigative journalist Jayna Davis in her book The Third Terrorist linking Hussein to the Oklahoma City Bombing. It was discussed in an op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal.

Notes: Polls taken in 2007 have shown that around 30 to 41% of Americans believe Saddam was "personally involved" in the attacks. As for your original question it should not be in the "official theory" section because the 9/11 commission report disavows that theory and as used to be in the article President Bush eventually disavowed it (While he and Cheney strongly hinted at it they never explicitly said that. They said and still say that Iraq was involved with Al Queada}. Edkollin (talk) 19:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Caveat to the following discussion: If you wish to concur or oppose this move, please do NOT discuss your political views as a basis for the move. A discussion of whether the source of the attacks were in accordance with the mainstream view or not does nothing to further the understanding of what the name of this page should be, and there are more appropriate places to argue viewpoints. Thanks.--S. McIntire Allen (talk) 07:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

To short circuit this, I propose a speedy close, per WP:SNOW. The recent discussion which shows virtually no support has been archived or deleted, and it's been discussed and rejected at least 6 times. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 07:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The editor who requested this move added his rationale to an inactive discussion, which I've archived. I agree that we should speedily close this request because the same move was requested and rejected under two months ago. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

All the discussion I have seen does not address the word use issue. Everyone is getting emotional about the facts, instead of addressing the meaning of the word conspiracy. To repeat: a conspiracy may be defined as: "any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result. All these theories are conspiracies, unless you think the acts were random events. I have not seen one person respond to this linguistic issue. Just forget about the politics for a moment. Thanks.--S. McIntire Allen (talk) 08:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Linguistic issues are inappropriate. We report what WP:RS say, not what is grammatically correct. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 08:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

"Linguistic issues are inappropriate"? This entire site is one big linguistic issue. Respectfully, I don't see your point. Do you think we should ignore the definition of the words we use on WP? All the conventions of WP are for determining the linguistic style to be used, and if we ignore the most basic definition of a word, then we are not accurately reporting what people say.--S. McIntire Allen (talk) 07:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Linguistic issues are inappropriate. Our articles describe the world as it is described by reliable sources, not as it would be described by the grammar police. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This proposal is about the title of the article, not the content. Titles of articles are covered by different guidelines, as described below. ireneshusband (talk) 05:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I support the move proposed. Gindo (talk) 13:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are two similar cases worth noting, as "precedent".

http://en.wikipedia.org/Alternative_theories_of_the_bombing_of_Pan_Am_Flight_103

http://en.wikipedia.org/Alternative_theories_regarding_the_CIA_leak_scandal Gindo (talk) 14:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. If there is a reason why these precedents are not relevant, we should hear about it. ireneshusband (talk) 05:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, does someone want to dig up the previous move proposals and rejections from the archives. I still say that the previous rejection is too recent to be revisited without, at least, providing a new reason. "Linguistic" reasons, indeed. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is the most recent rejection: Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 16#Change the name of the article. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

When Reliable Sources are calling Richard Nixon as tricky Dick, should we rename our article? We make our own judgements, being an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. I say "Alternative theories" supplies far better information than "Conspiracy". The redirect will always be there. I can understand the fear of giving undue credulity to the theories, but on the other hand, they can't all be true, so the fact that they are plural is indication enough that they are unreliable. support move. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 22:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, wikipedia is built by consensus, in (con-spiracy) theory, at least, so if the opponents of the previous move maintain their position, I am happy to conlude a draw and therefor no action taken. Alas. — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (talk) 22:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If you:

• support the move because you believe in a non-mainstream conspiracy theory, please do NOT use that as a reason why you support the move. You are only hurting your own case.
• oppose the move, please explain to me why the mainstream view is not a conspiracy. Thanks.--S. McIntire Allen (talk) 07:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This, not being properly linked, (in spite of my trying to get it right with the original requester not even making an attempt), is not an appropriate RM section. But my reason for keeping the article name as it is is that that is what WP:RS such as the New York Times actually call it. They never used "tricky Dick" outside of editorial sections, so the comparison doesn't apply. The fact that the theories are unsupported by fact is irrelevant. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

My understanding was that this is now properly linked. If not, please let me know. Regarding your assertion of the NYT use of the term, if you indicated which article the NYT used the word we could accurately assess the reference. The name of the Pan Am and the CIA leak WP articles cited above clearly indicate that a neutral title is a standard practice on WP. I think we all believe WP ought to try to use the most accurate phrasing possible, and that means to rely on standard definition of terms. One of the definitions of conspiracy is ". . . any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result" and this would clearly include the mainstream explanation. Pointedly, no one has responded to indicate why the mainstream explanation is not a conspiracy.--S. McIntire Allen (talk) 02:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

There's hundreds...thousands of uses of the term in the media...NYT BBC CNN

You don't have to look very far to see how wide spread the term is (and how it's used). As far as how the accepted version is referred to, that might be best brought up on the September 11, 2001 attacks page, I'm not sure what that has to do with this requested move. This is a recurring request that has been roundly rejected in the past and will almost certainly be rejected in the future. RxS (talk) 05:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"Conspiracy theory is a pejorative term. I remember a year ago that User:Morton_devonshire swore blind that it wasn't, but his user page was (it's been toned down a lot since then) covered in photos of people in tinfoil hats, accompanied by lots of derogatory comments. Unfortunately there were many other editors at the same time who took a similar approach. Fortunately it seems to me that the people editing this page now are generally conscientious and genuinely interested in maintaining and improving the quality of wikipedia. Nevertheless I think that this prejudice remains and is clouding people's thinking. Indeed it has been argued that the stereotype of the conspiracy theorist has been carefully nurtured by people who have things to hide. Here's something from a reputable source:

"'Conspiracy theorist' is a term that has been used as a thought stopper. If you say you don't believe in conspiracy theorists then that's ridiculous." David Ray Griffin, eminent theologian and philosopher.

As a philosopher, Griffin has had to take great care when it comes to the relation between language and reason. In fact IMO, even among philosophers, Griffin has been particularly scrupulous in this regard, judging by his book "Unsnarling the World Knot". Therefore anything he has to say about the abuse of language should be taken extremely seriously. "Conspiracy theory" therefore should only be used if there really is no workable alternative. "Alternative theories" might not be perfect, but it is quite workable. ireneshusband (talk) 20:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Griffin? Serious? I've seen no evidence of that. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not with you. No evidence of what? ireneshusband (talk) 23:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean that you have seen no evidence that he has demonstrated a deep understanding of how language works and how it can be used and abused in his philosophical writings? Well you probably haven't if you haven't read any of his books. ireneshusband (talk) 23:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Griffin is hardly neutral on the subject...being a proponent of 9/11 conspiracy theories. He hardly qualifies as a reliable, third-party published source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In any case, this isn't a question for a philosopher, even a retired one. RxS (talk) 21:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

What you are saying is that anybody who writes a book about something is not a legitimate source. In any case, Griffin's fact-checking is exemplary. He is a highly respected academic after all. Since when has being a philosopher not been a good qualification to deal with semantics and semiotics? Philosophers have to be very precise about the meaning of the words they use. In fact much or twentieth century philosophy has been entirely focused on language. In fact Griffin has been one of the more diligent in this regard, taking care to explain his precise meaning at every step of an argument.

If we are to use the same argument you are using, then why are Thomas Eager's views on the psychology of conspiracy theorists quoted in this article, bearing in mind that he is just a materials scientist and has no qualification in psychology? ireneshusband (talk) 23:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Coming to think of it, if David Ray Griffin is not a reliable source because he supports one side in the argument, then all the mainstream news organisations and goodness how many other sources must also be disqualified because they unanimously endorse the mainstream account of 9/11. So which is it? Do we ditch all the reliable sources and have to make our own decisions? Or do we accept David Ray Griffin as a source as reliable as any other? ireneshusband (talk) 04:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the BBC, NYT and CNN don't "support" any side of the argument. Griffin does, and that's the difference. The BBC reports, Griffin advocates and promotes. See the difference? RxS (talk) 04:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

As I said, the BBC, NYT etc. all endorse the mainstream view of 9/11. Their reportage says that the story of the hijackers etc. is true, which obviously means that the all the other stories are false. Please explain how endorsing one view and rejecting another does not constitute "support" for one side of an argument against the other. ireneshusband (talk) 07:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I have looked into the matter of Griffin's "reliability" at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and its accompanying essay, Misplaced Pages:Independent sources. It comes as no surprise at all to find that once again your argument is self-serving and bogus. The stipulation about sources being "independent" is to make sure that editors don't, for instance, quote the sleeve notes in an article about a music recording. The only "interest" that Griffin has in the matter is that he presumably stands to make money from his books and his appearances as a speaker. If this were to disqualify him, then no academic whatsoever would count as a "reliable source" which would of course be absolutely absurd. It is a great discourtesy to other editors to throw the names of guidelines around if you haven't actually made even a passing effort to understand them properly. ireneshusband (talk) 22:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict says

Choose a descriptive name for an article that does not carry POV implications. For instance, what do we call the controversy over Qur'an handling at Guantanamo Bay? The article is located at Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005. Note that the title makes no statement about who is the (more) guilty party: it does not "give away" that conclusion; in fact the article itself draws no conclusion. Similarly, the article on the September 11, 2001 attacks does not assign responsibility for the attacks in the article name. See Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid for further advice on potentially controversial terminology.

This is pretty clear. The only question is whether the use of the term "conspiracy theorist" is pejorative and judgemental.

According to the main conspiracy theory article

In an early essay by Daniel Pipes "adapted from a study prepared for the CIA", Pipes attempts to pin down what beliefs distinguish 'the conspiracy mentality' from 'more conventional patterns of thought': appearances deceive; conspiracies drive history; nothing is haphazard; the enemy always gains; power, fame, money, and sex account for all. (Daniel Pipes, in Orbis, Winter 1992: "Dealing with Middle Eastern Conspiracy Theories")

In other words a CIA analyst says that all "conspiracy theorists" have a rather simplistic mindset.

The main conspiracy theory article also says

The term "conspiracy theory" is used by mainstream scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with particular methodological flaws.

This view isn't properly attributed there, but it looks like it comes from George Johnson. By calling this article "9/11 conspiracy theories", you are saying that the views it covers are methodologically flawed, are you not? This is clearly in contravention of the guideline I have quoted above. Any flaws in the methodology should be dealt with in the body of the article proper.

Let's look at a few uses of the term in the media:

"This man is a frothing conspiracy theorist." Washington Post

"It's unfortunate that a conspiracy theorist so disconnected from reality..." CNN

"Bill Joy knocked as 'conspiracy theorist' by tech zealot" The Register

"Now my contact - who is not a conspiracy theorist or fantasist" BBC

"He is also a conspiracy theorist - alleging dirty tricks by everyone from..." BBC

That's only some of what I got from a few minutes google search on "conspiracy theorist". I could come up with thousands more if I had time. They are all pejorative uses that imply that anyone who advocates a "conspiracy theory" is psychologically defective. It would be hard to find even one favourable use of the term that wasn't a conscious attempt to change its meaning the way that the meanings of "black" and "queer" have been changed.

Therefore, unless someone can provide evidence that the term "conspiracy theory" is also in wide mainstream use as a term that endorses the views it purports to describe, the current title clearly violates the guideline that the title should not prejudge the content. Therefore it should be changed. ireneshusband (talk) 00:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Look at what you just quoted; desecration is a word with bad connotations, just like conspiracy is. The most common term for these theories amount reliable sources is conspiracy theories. It doesn't common on the validity of the theories, nor does it comment on what they are about, or who holds them. The experts you've quoted above only state that most conspiracy theories have methodological flaws; some may not. This article takes no opinion on that in the title. Calling them anything else violates undue weight. --Haemo (talk) 00:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

"Qur'an desecration controversy" does not imply that the Qur'an was desecrated. However "conspiracy theories" does imply that what is in the article are nothing but conspiracy theories, with all the negative connotations that carries. Perhaps the article should be called "Allegations that alternative accounts of 9/11 are nothing but conspiracy theories". How does that sound? It's obviously what you mean.

The guidelines about "undue weight clearly refer to the content of the article, not the title.

Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority.

The guidlines for titles clearly state that the title should not prejudge the content. "Alternative theories" carries no judgement.

I know it sounds very impressive and authoritative to throw the names of wikipedia guidlines and policies around right, left and centre, but please do try and read them more carefully before you do so next time. ireneshusband (talk) 04:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory is how main steam reliable sources refer to this subject. There's no way around that and there's no reason for the change. Your arguments just don't hang together, for example you searched for conspiracy theorist when the topic at hand is conspiracy theory. As you saw above I showed how widely used the term is. You wanted to use Griffin as a source and I pointed out that the BBC reports, Griffin advocates and promotes which disqualifies him as a reliable source (for this purpose). This subject really is a waste of all our time here, there's no consensus for the move at this point. I think it's time for you to move on to another subject...RxS (talk) 06:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You and your predecessors have wheeled out that "Conspiracy theory is how reliable sources refer to the subject" truism whenever there has been a specific point presented to you that you cannot answer and that undermines the very argument upon which that truism is built. For instance why have you failed to answer Gindo's point about precedents for using "alternative theories" in other article titles? You have failed to explain how a news organisation or any other body that says that one version of events is true and that the other isn't is not taking sides. You have failed to explain how the "reliable sources" argument takes precedence over the part of the guidelines for naming articles that stipulates that the titles of articles should not prejudge their contents.

If I asked you who believes in "conspiracy theories" you would say a "conspiracy theorist" would you not? If conspiracy theories are what conspiracy theorists believe, and if conspiracy theorists are psychologically defective, then conspiracy theories are likely to reflect the defects of their proponents. In other words it means that a conspiracy theory is, almost by definition, a belief that is almost certainly wrong. Please don't be so ridiculously pedantic.

As for whether Griffin is a reliable source: Firstly, it isn't actually relevant anyway because the guideline I have cited above, that article titles should not prejudge the contents (Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict), is the one that applies here. WP:RS clearly talks about article contents, but doesn't mention titles. Therefore it can only help us to the extent that Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict makes use of it. If you disagree with this interpretation, then please provide chapter and verse. Secondly, you have not answered the question of why, if Griffin is to be disqualified from commenting because he has an opinion, other people and organisations that have an opinion are not disqualified? Is the criterion that only those who correctly articulate the mainstream account of 9/11 are reliable sources?

The subject is not a waste of time. The reason it comes up over and over again is because every time it comes up it gets derailed by slippery truisms that make no sense. Is this debate really more of a waste of time than quibbling over "conspiracy theory" versus "conspiracy theorist"? Is someone rubbishing books they have obviously never looked at a good use of our time? You claim to speak for everyone here. However half the people here are for changing the title. They may or may not be a consensus for changing the title, but I think you at least owe it to us to respond to our arguments honestly and directly. ireneshusband (talk) 09:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Essentially, the reason I initially made this move request was because I would discourage conspiracy theory from being used in the title of virtually any listing for any event that involves more than one person cooperating to bring about an outcome. Again, see the definition of the word conspiracy I referenced above. Regarding references:

1. Please don't quote CNN as an authority. If we adhere to the CNN mentality, we might as well pack it in now. A news network that has yet to do a story on BSE? How can that be an authority? Thank you for the references for BBC and NYT. However, I think that depends on which theory they are talking about. For instance, a slightly non-mainstream theory would not be an alternative theory to them, and we are looking for a comprehensive term to cover all the alternative theories, from the kooky ones to the only marginally alternative theories.
2. Also, one could argue that in time the BBC and NYT will come to call the theories something else as they have done in the past with theories initially not recognized by the mainstream. Our goal should be to take a less time-specific view of events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcintireallen (talk • contribs) 09:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

ANSWER ME, ANSWER ME, ANSWER ME: All this discussion and still not a single person can explain to me why the mainstream view is NOT a conspiracy. If it is, then naming this page conspiracy is clearly not accurate. This was my move request (he writes, jumping up and down like a three year old throwing a temper tantrum), and all I want is a simple answer to this question.--Mak Allen (talk) 09:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes! Why won't any of you answer this point? If you fail to do so then we shall have to infer that you have no credible answer. ireneshusband (talk) 09:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's your "reliable sources". It's eminent people saying that "conspiracy theories" are methodologically flawed fantasies. It's from an article called 9/11 conspiracy theories:

Critics of these alternative theories say they are a form of conspiracism common throughout history after a traumatic event in which conspiracy theories emerge as a mythic form of explanation (Barkun, 2003). A related criticism addresses the form of research on which the theories are based. Thomas W. Eagar, an engineering professor at MIT, suggested they "use the 'reverse scientific method'. They determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion." Eagar's criticisms also exemplify a common stance that the theories are best ignored. "I've told people that if the argument gets too mainstream, I'll engage in the debate." This, he continues, happened when Steve Jones took up the issue. The basic assumption is that conspiracy theories emerge a set of previously held or quickly assembled beliefs about how society works, which are then legitimized by further "research". Taking such beliefs seriously, even if only to criticize them, it is argued, merely grants them further legitimacy.

Michael Shermer, writing in Scientific American, said: "The mistaken belief that a handful of unexplained anomalies can undermine a well-established theory lies at the heart of all conspiratorial thinking. All the evidence for a 9/11 conspiracy falls under the rubric of this fallacy. Such notions are easily refuted by noting that scientific theories are not built on single facts alone but on a convergence of evidence assembled from multiple lines of inquiry."

If you have any evidence that these opinions do not broadly represent the mainstream view of "conspiracy theories", then please provide it.ireneshusband (talk) 09:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

These arguments have all been made before, although not necessarily with identical references, and found inadequate to support a move. 9/11 conspiracy theories is what this article is about, and is what they are called in mainstream works; 9/11 alternative theories is occasionally used, but for something completely different. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact that some other group of people made a decision at some point in the past has absolutely no bearing on this. The issue must be decided purely on its merits. You just trot out the same truism time and time again, even though I have clearly demonstrated that it does not apply in this context. You pointedly fail to answer not only that point, but also important points raised by other editors, namely that the term "conspiracy theory" does not clearly and objectively distinguish between mainstream and non-mainstream accounts of 9/11, and that there are indeed precedents for renaming articles concerning "conspiracy theories" in just the way that is being proposed now. Rather than repeatedly trying to remind us how tiresome we all are to you, please do us the courtesy of actually answering direct questions directly. ireneshusband (talk) 22:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You guys make a persuasive case. I originally opposed changing the title as I saw "conspiracy theories" as something with no negative connotations as they usually (if not always) turn out to be at least partially true as the passing of time allows more information to come out. However if the term is considered synonymous with a false belief by those who support the mainstream conspiracy theory then I have to support a name change. This is especially evident as those opposing a change have yet to make a cogent arguement for not changing.

"A small group of editors can reach a consensual decision, but when the article gains wider attention, others may then disagree. The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision. No one person, and no (limited) group of people, can unilaterally declare that community consensus has changed, or that it is fixed and determined."

To satify those editors who don't want the subject treated nuetrally why not rename it "911 Alternative Conspiracy Theories"? Wayne (talk) 02:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That is not too bad of an idea, but it would only be appropriate if we labeled the other theory "911 Mainstream Conspiracy Theory".--Mak Allen (talk) 08:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• 9/11 Alternative Theories" would be MUCH better. The term "conspiracy theorist" has been synonomous with "nutcase theorist," or "conspiracy crank" since the 1960's. "Conspiracy theory" might technically be considered neutral from a linguistic standpoint, however use of the term cannot escape its pejorative "urban legend" connotations, now well-established after FORTY PLUS YEARS!! If anyone else thinks it would be a good idea to eliminate "conspiracy theory" entirely, I'll formally propose it. Apostle12 (talk) 02:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I quite agree. The oppose camp have failed to produce a single valid argument for keeping things the way they are, despite repeated challenges to do so. The relevant naming guidelines, as I have explained in some detail above and below, clearly state that the title should be as simply and unambiguously descriptive as possible for lay readers, and that it should not prejudge the contents. "9/11 alternative theories" fits the bill better than any alternative that I am aware of. Anything with "conspiracy theory" in it does not. To compromise on this would be to compromise the integrity of wikipedia as an encyclopaedia. ireneshusband (talk) 22:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no consensus for the move, not by weight of argument or by numbers. We've been over this many times, if a minority of editors are not happy with that I don't know what to say. The problem is that on a regular basis, an editor will come along and make this demand and expect everyone to have an extended debate about it. No new information has come to light, no new arguments have been made. Wearing people down by making the same arguments over and over and over isn't an acceptable way to advance your position...if you can't accept this start an RFC or something in the dispute resolution process. RxS (talk) 02:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

If it keeps coming up, then there must be some support for changing the title. The above discussion does seem to favor a change, though the commenting editors have not signaled their vote as support or oppose, to make a clear stand. I would propose at this time that we formally open a vote, requesting involved editors to take a clear stand.Apostle12 (talk) 03:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

We don't really "vote" on this sort of thing, voting doesn't trump policy. I'd suggest an RFC or something else on the dispute resolution path. RxS (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the last time I was involved in one of these, we ended up with five editors who said Support, one who said Conditional Support, one who said Weak Support, and one who said Reluctant Support. Went ahead and moved the article to the new name, and everyone seems to be happy. Apostle12 (talk) 03:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"Voting doesn't trump policy" – We've already demonstrated very clearly that the current name violates policy and that the policy which you say justifies the status quo clearly does not apply. You have completely failed to counter several of the arguments we have provided. Vague references to higher authority do not constitute a valid argument, especially when those appeals have already been demonstrated several times to be bogus. As for requesting an RFC (whatever that stands for), it may turn out to be necessary, but it doesn't change the fact that the honourable course of action for those who oppose the change would be either to counter the arguments with which they disagree by deploying well-reasoned and relevant arguments of their own, or to accept that they do not have a valid case and accept the change. ireneshusband (talk) 07:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You accuse those who support the move of providing no new arguments (whether or not that is true I cannot say), yet you only provide one single argument in defense of the status quo—"It's what 'reliable sources' call it"—which is the same argument that has been trotted out again and again at least since I first tried to bring up this issue, which was over a year ago. It has clearly been demonstrated to be bogus this time as it has been before. If it wasn't bogus, you would have been able to provide a counter-argument in its defense. You have failed to do so despite being emphatically urged to do so time and again. ireneshusband (talk) 07:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The 'oppose' people repeatedly claim they have explained themselves over and over, but they have not. The issue here as raised by the requester of the move, is to explain why the mainstream theory is not a conspiracy theory. Not a single 'oppose' author has even attempted to address that issue. Both camps are getting emotionally involved in your belief of the cause of the attacks. I am respectfully requesting you try to completely ignore the fact that we are discussing 9/11. Just think about the issue of explaining why a mainstream conspiracy should not be labeled a conspiracy, but an alternative conspiracy is labeled a conspiracy. Linguistically it is flawed. FORGET ABOUT THE POLITICS FOR A SECOND!!!--Mak Allen (talk) 08:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, I don't see that anybody has tried to bring up "what really happened" as an argument. What the rest of us who want change have been doing has been to use the opportunity to bring up other arguments that equally refute the case of those who are dedicated to keeping the name as it is. One of the long-term problems on this page has been that when this question has come up before, the opposers have managed to avoid the issue by changing the definition of "conspiracy theory" to suit the needs of the moment. That is why any attempt to win this argument needs to be multifaceted. Your argument is a perfectly sound one and the failure of the opposing camp to address it properly speaks volumes. ireneshusband (talk) 09:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"It's what reliable sources call it"

As has been made abundantly clear already, the argument that "it's what reliable sources call it" does not apply here. Nevertheless, let's take a look at its implications if it did:

If the article is called "9/11 conspiracy theories" because that's what "reliable sources" call it, then it follows that only those theories that "reliable sources" label conspiracy theories are admissible in this article. What would they include? That the White House deliberately failed to act? Yes. That the Israelis were involved somehow? Yes. That it was done with space weapons? Yes. That it was done by a cabal of shape-shifting reptoids who have ruled the entire earth for thousands of years? Yes. That Al Qaeda did it in collaboration with Saddam Hussein? No.

This is a strange omission, is it not? We cannot attribute it to forgetfulness. The theory that Saddam Hussein was involved has much in common with some of the other theories: It is not endorsed by "reliable sources". It is believed by a significant number of people. It is a theory based on belief in an overarching conspiracy, namely the "Axis of Evil", which not only encompasses Al Qaeda and Saddam's Iraq, but also Iran, Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela somehow linked together under the umbrella of "international terrorism".

If this theory does not belong in this article, where does it belong? In the main 9/11 article? But the only reason for the existence of 9/11 conspiracy theories has been to keep fringe theories out of the main 9/11 article. Should it have an article of its own? As well as giving the theory "undue weight", it would mean that this particular piece of the picture would be somewhat orphaned. In other words the structure of the encyclopedia would have been distorted due to a perverse effort to make the content of the article conform to the title. Clearly the only sane option is for the title to match the contents, including elements that have yet to be written, but which naturally belong with the rest of the article, as the Osama-Saddam theory does.

By this standard, "It's what reliable sources call them" is false, because "them" does not describe everything that naturally belongs in the article. Therefore, even by the single (bogus) criterion that the opposers have proclaimed in support of their position, the current title is inadequate and must be changed. ireneshusband (talk) 09:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

In fact, what the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions says is:

This page in a nutshell: Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

This definitely does not say that the name should be what the majority of "reliable sources" call it. So right away we see, yet again, that the sole argument of the opposing camp is completely spurious. It actually says that the name should ideally be the one that is most recognisable, whether or not it is the label most often used, and that it should be the one that is most recognisable to English speakers, not just to mainstream news outlets and academics. (The word "generally" is used because it is reasonable to make exceptions in order, for instance, to minimise bias, to avoid unnecessary controversy or to avoid causing unnecessary offence.)

The rationale for this guideline is as follows:

The names of Misplaced Pages articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.

In other words this guideline is intended to combat jargon and convoluted or weird verbiage. "Alternative theories" is none of these. It may be used less than "conspiracy theory" in the context of 9/11, but it is perfectly comprehensible and memorable. It is also in very common use. I found around 47,000 instances of the term on Google. Here are some typical examples:

• An alternative theory of gravity
• Human evolution: an alternative theory
• In from the cold: alternative theory
• Regret theory: an alternative theory of rational choice
• an alternative theory of climate change
• When does the propounder of an alternative theory become a denier...

As you can no doubt see, despite the fact that nearly all these examples are to do with science, the words "alternative theory" are perfectly comprehensible in each case, even to someone who doesn't have a clue what the rest of it means.

"Conspiracy theory" by contrast, is quite problematic. For a start, there are supposed to be two competing meanings in operation: the first is simply belief in a conspiracy; the second is the more limited and pejorative sense of a theory that is methodologically flawed, propounded by people who are psychologically flawed. If this is the case, one can hardly say that "conspiracy theory" is unambiguous. The former definition would include the mainstream account of 9/11 as Mak Allen has said. The latter would not (at least it wouldn't from the point of view of people who think that the mainstream account is not flawed).

There are a whole lot of other problems with the term as well. Here is an example: An allegation against Vladimir Putin (such as that Alexander Litvinenko was murdered on his order) would not be labelled a conspiracy theory, whereas a similar allegation made against Dick Cheney would be. Since (to my knowledge) there has never been a definition of "conspiracy theory" that accounts for this discrepancy, we have to say that the term is extremely poorly defined indeed. How on earth can anyone really say that they know what it means? Not only does "conspiracy theory" fail to be clear and unambiguous. It fails with great big shiny brass knobs on. "Conspiracy theory" is completely inappropriate as the title of this article because no one knows what it means.

In reality, in contrast to what I said a couple of paragraphs ago, the term carries negative connotations that are inescapable. I have already demonstrated from this that the term prejudges the content of the article and therefore falls foul of Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict.

However there is another implication of this that deserves attention: The term "conspiracy theorist" is a term of abuse, as in the patronising "A bit of a conspiracy theorist, are we?" There is no good reason for an article to have a title that is offensive when there is a perfectly reasonable alternative available. One of the reasons for the guidelines discouraging use of the term "Mormonism" is that it can cause offense (Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints)). I don't see how the use of the term "conspiracy theory" is fundamentally different. Therefore, in addition to all the above reasons, the title of the article should be changed because it is offensive. ireneshusband (talk) 11:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• Still oppose, but more weakly.
  • WP:COMMONNAME does have an exception if the name is pejorative and not used by the people themselves. In this case, believers in the thermate theories call the directed energy weapon theories "conspiracy theories", so the term is in common use even among those who would be "named". Also, " term can only be considered offensive if a verifiable, authoritative source can be quoted as citing it as such."
  • Nonethess, 9/11 alternative theories is just wrong. An encyclopedic article under that name would be completely different. I'm beginning to think 9/11 alternative theories should be changed to a disambig page, with one of the links being this article.
  • 9/11 non-mainstream theories may be a better name. However, 9/11 conspiracy theories does need to redirect to this article, under whatever name it appears.
• This still disregards the multiple arguments previously given in favor of keeping this name, including the "principle of least surprise". — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
• — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

This just doesn't hold water.

First of all, on what basis do you assume that the fact that some people who believe in the thermite explanation choose to label another group of people "conspiracy theorists" implies that most people who believe in the thermite explanation would do so? You will not find any evidence to support this.

Secondly, why do some people who believe in the thermite explanation label those who believe in the space weapons hypothesis "conspiracy theorists"? It is because they believe that the space weapons theory is whacky, convoluted and just plain wrong, if not a rather whacky. The only reason they use this label is used at all in this way is because it is derogatory. This really should be pretty obvious, so I hope we don't have to go through the routine of finding "reliable sources" to say that this is so.

Thirdly, the fact that you have identified two different groups of people demonstrates that your use of the word "they", as if you were speaking of a homogenous group, is unjustifiable. This should be quite obvious to anyone who has paid any attention to the content of this article. The fact that the term "conspiracy theory" easily lends itself to this kind of confusion in itself renders it unsuitable to be the title of this article. It is also quite obvious that the particular thermite theory adherents you refer to have a very different idea of what ualifies as a conspiracy theory to your own. Again, this proves that the term is not in the least unambiguous and therefore has no place as the title of this article. The term "alternative theories" on the other hand, carries no such baggage.

"9/11 non-mainstream theories" wouldn't be too bad, but if we are to consider the principle of least surprise that you have mentioned, "alternative theories" can be grasped in an instant. And it's shorter. To my mind, the word "alternative" does tend to imply something that is less popular. For instance I would find it less surprising if someone said that Linux or MacOS is an alternative to Windows than if someone said that Windows was an alternative to Linux. If you really feel strongly about this then we'll both obviously have to look into this in more detail.

You refer to "the multiple arguments" previously given. If there are arguments we haven't heard yet then you must state them clearly. After all, we have been challenging you to do this.

Could you point us to the section of policy or guidelines that refer to the "principle of least surprise"? In any case, this cannot be a hard and fast rule, as we can see from the Mormons/Latter Day Saints example; other factors are also important and may (as in this case) take precedence, such as the need to avoid prejudging the content or to cause unnecessary offense. The need to describe clearly and unambiguously the content of the article must also take precedence; as I have already demonstrated, this is something that "conspiracy theories" fails to do. That said, I have already demonstrated that "alternative theory" is a commonplace phrase that communicates its meaning instantly and causes very little suprise. Can you provide any good reason to think otherwise?

In conspiracy theory it says that the term acquired its derogatory sense in the 1960's. This fact was sourced from "20th Century Words" (1999) John Ayto, Oxford University Press, page 15. So yes, there it is from a "verifiable, authoritative source": "Conspiracy theory" is derogatory. Therefore it is not fit to be the title of this article.

You say that "alternative theories" is just plain "wrong". That is neither here not there unless you can demonstrate the validity of your case to the rest of us. You say that an encyclopaedic article under that name would be completely different. In what way is that a bad thing? As I have demonstrated above, "9/11 alternative theories" is an encyclopaedic category that would complement the main 9/11 article much more successfully than "9/11 conspiracy theories" does. ireneshusband (talk) 23:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. I dont see anything wrong or pejorative about "conspiracy theories". Do you have a theory about 9/11? Does it involve people conspiring to deceive? Then it is a conspiracy theory. It is not that "conspiracy theory" itself is pejorative, it is that so many theories about conspiracies are worthy of pejoratification (sic). For every "Lee Harvey Oswald was framed", there's twenty "Elvis is alive and is being kept at Area 51 by the Feds". I'd also say that the reams and reams of text makes me think of WP:SOAPBOXing, which weakens your case. Just say that you think it should be moved, and be done with it. Dont go on and on and on for 60kB, because people wont even bother reading it. Callmederek (talk) 15:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

  Although you don't see anything pejorative with the term "conspiracy theory" it seems that people writing the article conspiracy theory did, as the article says "The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss claims that are alleged by critics to be misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish, irrational, or otherwise unworthy of serious consideration" and there was consensus about this.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Callmederek's comment here is nothing more than personal opinion and entirely without merit. The only reason for my "reams and reams" of text has been that those opposed to the change have pointedly refused to respond to many of the arguments used to support it, but have instead supplied little more than personal opinion "supported" by gross misreadings of wikipedia policy. Because to a casual reader these might still seem like proper arguments, I have had to go to great lengths to refute them. Academics often write at great length. It's called being thorough. ireneshusband (talk) 23:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Recent move requests

I've had a quick look at the archives of this talk page, and in the last six archives there are three sections of interest:

• Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 15#Requested move
• Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 14#Page move
• Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 13#Vote on name change as proposed by 24.35.85.32

There may be others, I'll have a more thorough check when I have time. Andrewa (talk) 18:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's one more:

• Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 1#The Move
  • See also Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 1#Title vote (conspiracy theories vs controversy) which immediately follows The Move discussion.

There don't seem to be any other sections in the archives headed Requested move, but there may be other move requests if the discussion section was given some other heading, or relevant discussions I've missed... this was a quick scan only, and I only automated that one search. Andrewa (talk) 18:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate discussion 1

The open RFC below reads This is a dispute about whether the name of the 9/11 conspiracy theories article should be changed to 9/11 alternative theories because the mainstream theory is also a theory of conspirators. That appears to me to duplicate this requested move, which is listed at WP:RM as 9/11 conspiracy theories → 9/11 alternative theories. Surely it is pointless to have both discussions in progree at once? Andrewa (talk) 23:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Eager's credibility

The criticism section cites Thomas Eager's views on conspiracy theorists. However Eager has himself been accused of participating in the cover-up for 9/11 by Jim Hoffman. In other words there is a question mark over his credibility and his motives. To be more specific, Hoffman claims in an annotated transcript of an interview with him in a Nova documentary that Eager deliberately mangled not only the facts but the science, making the kind of errors one would expect from a schoolchild. The case he puts is a strong one that anyone with a reasonable grounding in science will be able to validate without need of an external source. How can this be reflected fairly in the article? ireneshusband (talk) 22:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

In other words, a 9/11 conspiracy theorist accused an expert of being part of a cover-up, and attached his work. Do you have any criticism presented in a reliable source? Because his say-so is not enough. --Haemo (talk) 06:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Theories of Jewish involvement

The claim was not that all Jews skipped work in the WTC that day, the claim was that all Israeli Jews skipped work in the WTC that day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.147.241.183 (talk) 00:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

So, is this true, or not? If so this would indicate Israeli foreknowledge, which is the not the same thing as proving Israeli (or Jewish) involvement in a conspiracy, so please don't accuse me of encouraging anti-Semitism. Comments? Apostle12 (talk) 02:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as this article is concerned, the main relevant issues are how widely held this belief is (i.e. its cultural significance) and to what extent "reliable sources" endorse this view. One thing I can say in this regard: a good few 9/11 researchers think that theories such as this are pure disinformation designed to trick 9/11 sceptics into tarring themselves with the anti-semitism brush. ireneshusband (talk) 07:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Good points. But what are the facts? Did it come down that way? Were any Israeli Jews among the casualties? Apostle12 (talk) 07:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

According to The Jerusalem Post, five Israelis were killed; one in each of the planes and three in the north tower. It's already in the section under discussion. And before anybody says "You-know-who owns the Jerusalem Post," their names are confirmed by all the sources. They're all Hebrew or European names, too, so it's reasonable to assume they were Jews. <eleland/talkedits> 08:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

While I appreciate that it is important to get this question ironed out, this talk page is intended for communication directly related to editing the article and not for general discussions about 9/11. ireneshusband (talk) 11:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

RFC

Template:RFCpol This is a dispute about whether the name of the 9/11 conspiracy theories article should be changed to
9/11 alternative theories because the mainstream theory is also a theory of conspirators.

• The term "conspiracy theory" connotes much more than "explanation of events involving criminal collusion," it refers to theories of vast overarching conspiracies which control and manipulate broad sectors of society, suppress evidence, and silence critics. As you already know. Go away. <eleland/talkedits> 09:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

  But the article does not only include theories about "vast overarching conspiracies which control and manipulate broad sectors of society", it also include theries about minor coverups or foreknowledge.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 14:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• It is not true that the only argument presented in favor of keeping the article title is "that's what it's called by reliable sources". That's an adequate reason, it the absense of a new (i.e., not previously rejected) reason for moving it, but it's the only reason presented this month. I've been involved in previous discussions, but I can't figure out where in the archives they've been placed. It's the proposer of a significant edit who needs to research the relevant history, not those who recognize a consensus for stability. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

No. The current case for changing the name stands on its own merits. If your argument against it is "There are lots good arguments against this, but I can't remember what they are," then that is your problem. In any case, I proposed this change a little over a year ago and one thing I can definitely say about the "debate" is that the quality of conduct and argument provided by the opposing camp was not any better than it is now. Then, as now, they refused to address my core argument that the guideline that titles should not prejudge contents should be the deciding factor. Instead they bombarded me from all sides me with non-sequiturs, arbitrary personal opinions and gross misrepresenations of wikipedia policy. The only difference between then and now is that this time we have at least been spared the sight of the person who proposed the change being threatened with banning. It was bullying and nothing less, and because I was an inexperienced editor, I didn't know how to deal with it the way I know how to deal with it now. So you really suggest that we should just roll over and accept a decision made through that kind of process? Is it reasonable to expect someone to wade through pages of such garbage on the off-chance that they might find an opposing argument actually that has some merit? ireneshusband (talk) 00:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly support: "Conspiracy Theories" is derogatory and desultory - merely an attempt to suggest that any alternative belief, even something so small as a dispute over timeline, implies belief in some broad conspiracy. Bulbous (talk) 02:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Ugh This RfC is ridiculous. The community has, repeatedly, resoundingly rejected this proposal. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This comment is an oppose, by the way. Apparently I hadn't made that clear. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 17:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It was one of your side who suggested the RfC. It is indeed ridiculous. As I said before, the only honourable thing to do would be either to address the key elements of the pro-change case directly or to concede that you have no case and let the change go ahead. ireneshusband (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose I will say that calling the theories conspiracy theories is legitimate. It is an example of calling a spade a spade, no more, no less. Unless reliable sources can be found that label such theories by clearly more respectable names, keeping the label is appropriate.Ngchen (talk) 03:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but can you point out any possible logic that says that any alternate theory must imply conspiracy? I must be missing something, because there seems to be a huge lapse in critical thinking here. Bulbous (talk) 04:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

What? If we apply the logic the conspiracy alternative theorists use, then any theory which involves more than one person acting in secret is a "conspiracy theory." You can't object to the current name on that rationale, and then push your preferred name on a totally contradictory rationale. Critical thinking requires you also — especially — examine your own preferred ideas, as well as everybody else's. The 9/11 "alternative" theories are classic conspiracism, positing an incredibly powerful group taking profound world-changing action and yet somehow escaping the notice of all but a dedicated group of Internet kooks. When you start unraveling these "theories" you're inevitably led to the point where the theorist tells you that everyone is in on it; the government, the mainstream media, etc. It's classic conspiracism. <eleland/talkedits> 05:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me. You still have an overwhelming logic problem. Who says that any alternative theory of 9/11, even something so small as a rejection of a timeline issue, involves "more than one person working in secret". This is your own WP:OR. Can no one see this? Bulbous (talk) 06:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Because even a disagreement over a timelines requires (1) someone to lie about the timeline, (2) experts to overlook or ignore the lie, (3) journalists and experts to ignore those who bring it up. That's a conspiracy. --Haemo (talk) 06:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

So, in your world, every difference of opinion must necessarily involve a "lie"? That is absolutely and entirely ridiculous! You are logically equating difference of opinion with malfeasance, when it may simply be error or negligence. Mistakes or disagreements do not imply "lies" as you so non-neutrally suggest. This may simply reflect scholastic or personal difference of opinion, incompetence, or negligence. Bulbous (talk) 06:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a "difference of opinion" when it's a statement of what happened to when and the facts are known. Even if you skip (1) there is still (2) and (3) which are a conspiracy. --Haemo (talk) 06:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(2) "Ovelook or ignore" and (3) "ignore". Those are the aspects of your argument which break down. There is no necesary implication of malfeasance. 2) and 3) may simply be MISTAKEN. Mistakes on the part of sources in no way implies complicity. Do you not understand that? Bulbous (talk) 07:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not the event in question is a mistake or a lie, the theory still posits a conspiracy of experts and journalists who conceal and suppress the resolution of the mistake, or lie. Complicit or implicit conspiracy is still conspiracy. --Haemo (talk) 07:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason that a theory might not be part of the "official" record may simply be difference of expert opinion. There is still no way that every alternative theory of the events of 9/11 equates to conspiracy. It's ludicrous, and you haven't given any rational explanation to justify it. Bulbous (talk) 15:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)
Legitimate differences of opinion and interpretation are already covered in the main articles per WP:NPOV. For example, the question of whether Moussaoui was the "20th hijacker," whether the United 93 passengers fought their way to the cockpit door before the hijackers "pulled it down", whether simple and economical improvements to the WTC towers could have prevented or long delayed their collapse, even whether NORAD and FAA covered their asses by deliberately lying about the timeline of events, are all areas of reasonable, reliable source, disagreement. This "alternative theories" push is an attempt to legitimize and promote theories which go far beyond the facts, and indeed invent new facts freely. The only possible way which "alternative" explanations could differ so widely from the explanations given by governments and media, and yet still be correct, would be if the government and media were deliberately, consciously lying. That's what I mean by "conspiracism." To believe this stuff, you have to throw away enormous volumes of documentation, which you can only do by positing that the documenters are "in on it." <eleland/talkedits> 16:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• It is not derogatory, or misleading; all of the arguments which insist the label is inherently insulting are based on misreadings or personal opinion; not reliable sources. It is the overwhelming term used for these theories in reliable sources — both academic and journalistic. The fact that certain people, who hold certain beliefs which the mainstream media calls "conspiracy theories" do not want to be associated with people who hold truly outrageous beliefs is little more than a political ploy. --Haemo (talk) 06:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

  We are not forced to use POV pushing terminology (check the article conspiracy theory to see if it is derogatory) - even when mainstream media do - if more neutral terminology is available. According to WP:NPOV we are also not *allowed* to use such POV pushing terminology (see the quotes in my comment below).--Pokipsy76 (talk) 13:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

  It is not POV; it can be used pejoratively, but it is not inherently pejorative — the same term is true of "terrorist" or virtually any term which can be used as a negative. --Haemo (talk) 22:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

According to "20th Century Words", John Ayto, Oxford University Press, p. 15, it has been pejorative since the 1960s.

What is it with this "It's what reliable sources call it"? It could not have been made clearer in this debate that this argument has absolutely no legs whatsoever. It is nothing more than a self-serving confabulation. No one has challenged the reasoning behind this rebuttal. Yet the opposers keep coming back with this old canard again and again and again. Even when someone puts out an RfC and editors come from other parts of wikipedia, where you would expect the culture to be at least a little different, many of them trot out exactly the same line without any sign that they have bothered to read the debate they purport to be commenting on. What is even stranger is that a year ago on this page, when there was a different lot of core editors in place, you would still here the same mantra over and over again. Well there's a conspiracy theory for you! Misplaced Pages being taken over by pod people. Don't we deserve better than this? ireneshusband (talk) 01:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Ice Cold Beer. Been argued many times over. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

  The Ice Cold Beer comment do not provide any reason for opposing *to the proposal*: it just provide a reason for opposing *to the RFC*, so your "Oppose" seem to be inappropriate or unjustified.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 14:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support: citing Conspiracy theory:

  The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss claims that are alleged by critics to be misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish, irrational, or otherwise unworthy of serious consideration.

And citing WP:NPOV:

Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality.

And finally a simple observation: a term that is "also used pejoratively" has *obviously* a lower degree of neutrality than a term that is *not* used pejoratively. Try to reject this argument if you can.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 09:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

PS: I prefer 9/11 non-mainstream theories rather than 9/11 alternative theories.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 14:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Except that the "other" term is not used by reliable sources and serves only to try and disassociate the theories mentioned from the criticism they have attracted in the media. That's called undue weight and changes the common name because some people don't like the associations the term uses. It's no different than "psuedoscience" — a term which the ArbCom already endorsed. --Haemo (talk) 22:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

As already made clear above, as per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions, "reliable sources" has absolutely no bearing on this. It is simply not a criterion as far as naming of articles go. Yet again, you completely fail to respond to the argument that Misplaced Pages:Naming conflicts strongly recommends that the title should not prejudge the content, with the clear implication that this overrides strict adherence to the basic principle of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions. I have also pointed out that the "undue weight" rule specifically concerns article contents and not titles. Please at least try to pretend that you have been paying attention to what other people have to say. ireneshusband (talk) 00:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly Support:The theories are all conspiracies, so calling this page a conspiracy theory page is not accurate.--Mak Allen (talk) 11:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support: I just read the last three RFC's and the reasons used for opposing a change are enough for me to support it. Some common reasons given were "alternative theories implies they might be provable", "the theories are absurd and they deserve the title of conspiracy theories", "Conspiracy theories are.. intellectual toxic waste...so title is appropriate", "Theories that ignore the evidence do not warrant the "alternative" label", "calling them alternative theories would be giving them credibility" and "Reliable sources trump NPOV". Then we have the failed RFC to change the article name to "911 Conspiracy Hoaxes" where some editors supported it which is completely at odds with the reasons the same editors give not to change to "alternative theories". It is abundantly apparent that much opposition for alternative is based solely on the POV reasoning that anything to prevent giving the slightest credibility to conspiracy theories is prefered. Wayne (talk) 12:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly Support:

- Both the official account and other views explaining the events of 9/11 are conspiracy theories, therefore it is inaccurate - The term "conspiracy theory" is pejorative, and therefore not NPOV - The proposed title is clearly more appropriate given the diverse nature of content in the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories article My rationale for supporting this move has been largely expanded on earlier in this thread, so I won't repeat the arguments. If anyone wants further justification from me, pls inquire. Gindo! 21:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: "Conspiracy theories" is the term most often used in reliable sources. Newspapers and other reliable sources are surely aware of the negative connotations attached to the term, which is probably why they use it in the first place. // Chris 21:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

  Newspapers don't have the Neutral Point of View Policy but we do.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 22:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Adopting a non-standard term for political reasons is in no sense of the word "neutral". --Haemo (talk) 22:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

    • Hasn't the "alternative theories" crowd spent a lot of time on various 9/11 pages arguing that we can only use the word "terrorism" when our sources use it? That seems like a little of a double standard to require the exact wording only when it helps your cause. // Chris 23:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions says absolutely nothing about "reliable sources" being a criterion for naming articles. This has been made absolutely clear in the debate. No one has shown how this reading of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions might be in error. You lot will need to change your hymnal. ireneshusband (talk) 01:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oppose, there's been no new arguments made since all the other attempts at this. The vast majority of sources use the term conspiracy theory, and that is all the reason we'd need to keep it here. The arguments for the move here mostly involve bad analogies (the term alternative in other unrelated contexts or arguing the term conspiracy theorist). The bottom line here is that Misplaced Pages is not in the business of popularizing or introducing terms...and this move would be doing just that. The vast majority of sources (reliable or not) use the term conspiracy theory. only a tiny minority call it alternative theory.

One more important point about this, there's a lot of talk about the term being pejorative. Given the extremely wide usage of the term, to accept that argument you'd have to also accept that the BBC, New York Times, Reuters (among thousands more all over the world) all consciously and purposely use a term they know is pejorative in their news sections. Plainly that's not something any reliable news organization would ever do. RxS (talk) 23:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think they use it because it is a pejorative term. Haemo made a great point above about how this is a little like use of the term pseudoscience. // Chris 23:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Oppose per RxS. ~ S0CO 23:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

strongly support I was wondering when the troops would turn up. One of the main reasons that this proposal has failed in the past has been that whoever was naive enough to propose it has simply had to deal with huge numbers of editors coming from every quarter with nonsensical arguments. It has been weight of numbers, rather than reason, that has won the day. I haven't yet read all the "new" arguments that have suddenly come to light, but the gist of them seems to be "Conspiracy theory is not derogatory or a negaitve judgement because I personally think so." It is absolutely beyond doubt that the current title has no merit according to policy and evidence, and no amount of personal opinion will change that. ireneshusband (talk) 00:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Broad pronouncement that your interpretation is "beyond doubt" are not compelling arguments, and to summarize the above opinions as "because I think so" is misleading and false. --Haemo (talk) 00:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree, your assertion that something is beyond doubt is only that..your assertion. And could you explain the troops comment please? RxS (talk) 00:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

In the past this debate has been decided by force of numbers, not by reason.

I am not the one making "broad pronouncements". Unlike you, I have tried very hard to give chapter and verse when I have refered to wikipedia policy, and I have tried very hard to make my evidence and my reasoning clear, as have other editors advocating change. You make no effort at all to address the substance of many of our arguments. If there was anything wrong with the spec I am sure you would have told us. So come on then! Why doesn't Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions apply in this case? Why are the precedents set by renaming other articles with "conspiracy theory" in their titles irrelevant? How can a term, the meaning of which is not universally agreed, be an unambiguous descriptor? ireneshusband (talk) 01:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your arguments have been rebuffed; you just refuse to acknowledge it, and instead repeat them as if repetition ensured their veracity. --Haemo (talk) 01:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support, unequivocal support "9/11 alternative theories" is the only neutral title that has been proposed so far. The terms "conspiracy theories" and "conspiracy theorists" have been pejorative for four decades now, as any linquist will confirm. Don't even know why we are debating it. Apostle12 (talk) 00:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's not a matter of whether it is pejorative or not, but a matter of how it is most frequently referred to in the mainstream. How we personally feel is irrelevant. ~ S0CO 01:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please make at least a little effort to read the comments that have gone before before you post. It's only common courtesy. ireneshusband (talk) 01:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to reiterate, in case it anyone missed it in the comment soup, the term is pejorative according to "20th Century Words" (1999) John Ayto, Oxford University Press, page 15. ireneshusband (talk) 01:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You repeatedly cite the article conspiracy theory, which states "The term "conspiracy theory" may be a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim" and instead focus on the "its current derogatory sense" phrase. Naturally, this article does not use it in the derogatory sense, as you have repeatedly claimed. "Conspiracy theory" has both pejorative and neutral uses; our use here is neutral. --Haemo (talk) 01:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oppose "conspiracy theories" is by far the most common name for these theories, best known and used by news sources and reliable sources. --Aude (talk) 00:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This argument has already been discredited several times over. Why aren't you willing to address the specific arguments of those supporting the change? You are a very experienced editor. I find it strange that you should be so casual about this. ireneshusband (talk) 01:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It has not been discredited; you have merely repeatedly claimed it has been. --Haemo (talk) 01:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate discussion 2

The open Requested move above is listed at WP:RM as 9/11 conspiracy theories → 9/11 alternative theories. This appears to duplicate this RFC. Surely it is pointless having both discussions in progress at once? Andrewa (talk) 23:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

1. dictionary.com

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists
• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review