Misplaced Pages

• Do you people realize how insane this looks? I swear, Misplaced Pages has reached the point where everyone defends bad behavior by saying "but look, other people didn't get sanctioned for bad behavior!" Someone has to be the first to be sanctioned for bad behavior, or you're stuck in an eternal circle of blame. -Amarkov moo! 04:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Signature

• Jeffmichaud (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Jeffmichaud for a long time has used the signature "Jeff", but changed it on Jan 14 to "Baha'i Under the Covenant". The policy on User names says to avoid names that are offensive or promotional. WP:sig suggests for users to politely request others to change their signature. If there is consensus that the policy of avoiding 'offensive, confusing, or promotional' user names equally applies to signature, then I also suggest updating WP:sig.

I politely requested on Jan 24 for him to change the signature, and after no response I warned him again on Feb 8,. The first request was immediately archived, and the second request was immediately deleted outright from his talk page.

For more details on why this is both offensive and promotional, glance over Baha'i divisions. The Baha'i religion has teachings on the succession of authority, and anyone creating divisions are considered dangerous and shunned, labeled "Covenant-breaker". The implication is that there is a Covenant in the religion to provide unity, and anyone who breaks away is not under the Covenant. Jeffmichaud belongs to one such group with a handful of followers who call themselves the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant". Changing his signature in the middle of a debate over Baha'i content was his way of promoting his ideological claim in the face of other editors. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 01:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh good grief! What kind of belief or faith is it that cannot withstand critical comment even from within itself? And when it comes down to mere words, whatever their implications, I'd suggest that any belief system should be self-confident and self-consistent in itself to be able to ignore mere words. That words are found offensive doesn't help in the slightest. Throughout history, words have been labelled as offensive, mostly because they represent a difference from orthodoxy; but in the context of an analytical, independently-minded and intellectually balanced source of information, rather than of opinion, taking offence at mere words is jejune, intellectually barren, and time-wasting. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: Please feel free to cite any authority whatsoever, religious, legal or otherwise, that supports a right not to be offended. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That is completely not the point. We have a Misplaced Pages policy that says not to use offensive user names, and a guideline that says it equally applies to signatures. Your response is attacking the policy and saying that nobody should be offended by anything. That's nonsense and a total disregard for the official policy that "all users should follow". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologise, but I personally am offended by any user name containing the letter "c". Therefore, they should all be banned. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 11:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, completely not the point, and an illogical disregard for WP policy. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Stop shaking the straw man, please. Or is that Reductio ad absurdum? hbdragon88 (talk) 19:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Forgive my stupidity, but exactly how is the signature offensive or promotional? —Kurykh 07:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't see it either; sounds like the debate we had over User:Rama's Arrow a few months ago. --Rodhullandemu

Hmmm.. neither can I. Has the subject since changed it? Rudget. 14:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

(Talk) 12:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC) This is a big part of why I don't edit Baha'i articles anymore. :\ JuJube (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I should make something clear: I don't think it's offensive that he has certain beliefs and edits wikipedia, but he changed his signature to something that implies divine right. It would be like a user name of "I'm in God's favor and you're not". There is no need to use controversial user names/signatures and I politely requested for him to change it, and I politely requested for an administrator to enforce policy and ask him to change it to something less controversial. And no he hasn't changed it yet. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a deeper look, and ask him to change it based on that reason. I don't see anything unreasonable in asking the subject to change to something that would at least reflect his username. Rudget. 15:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, if someone changed their sig to "I'm in God's favor and you're not", my reaction would be less "offended" and more "hilarity". Even assuming the worst possible faith--that the person is TRYING to honk off the other believers--changing a sig to something self-aggrandizing says less about the truth of his/her beliefs as it says about their response to disagreement. Just my opinion, though, and no offense intended to anyone. Gladys J Cortez 06:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, is someone here talking about me behind my back? Kidding. Rudget, I will respectfully decline your request to change anything if, as seems clear from the discussion that transpired, I'm not in violation of any policies nor am I being "required". I don't believe I've violated any policy, but rather am being "asked" to change it to appease Cunado's will on the matter? After closer look at the actual policies on the matter it is obvious that Cunado is taking generous liberties at interpreting them in his own unique way for reasons not exactly obvious to me or anyone else. I appreciate your sentiments to avoid controversy, Rudget, but if it is offensive to Cunado I can only be envious that his life is so blessed to have nothing of greater concern to worry about. Baha'i Under the Covenant (talk) 07:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:Username policy is a policy that "all users should follow", and "a user who acts against the spirit of them may be reprimanded, even if technically no rule has been violated." The policy states that inappropriate user names are ones that are misleading, promotional, offensive, or disruptive, and "these criteria apply to both usernames and signatures." I already explained why the signature is controversial. I was once blocked for not following WP:sig, which is a guideline and not even a policy, see this conversation. Someone please enforce policy. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

New user User:Lostanos tagging other users as confirmed socks

(reports combined - Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC))

Lostanos (talk · contribs) has tagged at least a dozen user pages as confirmed socks of Hkelkar (talk · contribs). Pairadox (talk) 04:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Lostanos (talk · contribs)'s entire edit history is sticking Helkar sockpuppet tags on Users' User pages. Corvus cornix_talk 04:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Please block this guy ASAP and delete all of his nonsense edits. Corvus cornix_talk 04:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely - might be an innocent explanation, but there's something certainly not right about those edits. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Should we go about cleaning up his mess now? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I just spot-checked about a dozen of the accounts Lostanos tagged, and all of them were indefinitely blocked as socks of Hkelkar. But they were all blocked on October 26, 2007, so I agree there isn't much value to posting a bunch of sock tags tonight. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

They just asked for an unblock claiming that all the tags were on blocked but untagged hkelkar accounts... which appears to be correct, on spot check of 20 of them.

It's obviously not a real new user, and it's really darn suspicious to me... but I'd like second opinions on whether to leave blocked or not. One thing that occurs to me is that it might be Hkelkar doing a PR stunt run.

In the meantime, I think maybe just leave the tags as is, as they appear to be right. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

My immediate thought was an Hkelkar sock. Corvus cornix_talk 04:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say there's enough here for a checkuser, to see if it is a hkelkar sock... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I was way ahead of you on that one. Filed and listed. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Nah, this isn't Hkelkar. It's more likely to be User:Kuntan than not. Moreschi 09:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Entirely possible, but the question remains: how in heaven's name was this disruptive? Relata refero (talk) 10:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Moreschi and Relata, Not me. I didn't go anywhere near there. It could very well be a PR stunt by the dirty guru, as GWH suggested.59.91.253.184 (talk) 14:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat

Since no admin seems to have the sense to have unblocked User:Zenwhat yet, I'll make this a new section. This user was blocked for removing a section he started on the village pump , with the edit summary "Too angry when I wrote this. I don't want a flame-war. I changed my mind. This thread is getting deleted."

He was trying to make the situation right, and got blocked for it. Some users can be a pain in the butt, but guess what, no one has to edit Misplaced Pages, no one has to go to discussion pages. If people like Zen drive you mad, edit somewhere else, but you don't get to block them because you don't like them. -- Ned Scott 06:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• This user's pattern of edits to project-space have been very eccentric, to say the least, and unhelpful. If he is unblocked, he should be restricted to editing only articles and their corresponding talk pages. *** Crotalus *** 06:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think we should block people for personality qwerks. Unless they're actually being disruptive, don't block them, or restrict them. Criticism of the Foundation, however misplaced it might be, is not banned from the Village Pump. -- Ned Scott 06:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps the interesting quirk to look at is the pattern of making edits and either deleting them or claiming "oh well, I do silly things". Making mistakes is one thing, continually making mistakes with the justification that one makes mistakes is another. No I don't have a set of diffs. Franamax (talk) 06:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• We users are often reminded that blocks are to protect WP and to prevent disruption, and are not used punitively. The blocking admin's rationale was that removing the comments of other editors was unacceptable. Zenwhat recognises he should have archived rather than removed. The comments have been restored, and the discuaaion in question is archived. There is thus little "protective" benefit to be had in continuing this block. Since I know that punitive blocks aren't permitted, the situation here must be that no one has noticed the discussions above or that not removing the block is an oversight - after all, none of Misplaced Pages's admins would ever act to punish an editor. Jay*Jay (talk) 07:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, Zenwhat seems to have a history of acting, then recognising and apologising for inappropriate actions. To the extent that this statement is true, then the protective benefit of a continuing block is to prevent the disruption caused by these recurrent mistakes. The time-out also gives pause for reflection and hopefully self-remediation. Franamax (talk) 09:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• I have spent a lot of time on two serious efforts to convince Zenwhat to become more responsible in his actions. He accused me of violating WP:AGF and WP:AHI by criticising him. I invite those who feel that blocking Zenwhat was unjustified or not necessary to prevent further disruption to read my two long conversations with him (see my talk page). If this does not change your mind, then presumably I approached it in the wrong way and would like to get some feedback on my talk page. Thanks. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, if this was just a "personality quirk", that would be one thing. But this user seems to live to stir up the shit with twisted arguments that I have doubts over the sincerity of. _(1 == 2) 16:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I missed this second thread, but per above, I unblocked about an hour ago. Orderinchaos 17:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Though Zenwhat is "retired" now, there is previous User:Nathan admitted, and see above similar edit pattern (briefly) a user banned? called something similar to User:Karmaisking. Are there issues of the socking nature that deserve more attention?

Interacting with Zenwhat on WP talkpages recently has been a rather frustrating experience.

I have no problems with Zenwhat being unblocked at this time, however, if the user comes back from retirement, some remedies (ie agree to abide by talkpage guidelines, and respect both WPspace and mainspace as decent venues for building knowledge, not a battleground).

Other editors have commented on Zenwhat's energy, prolificy, and remarkable tendency to hurl accusasions, of CABAL, assume bad-faith, invoke IAR, SPADE, -ICK, etc. The incivility is the main issue, and the user will not acknowledge the need to drop such nastiness in the future. But, then, they've retired. Newbyguesses - Talk 19:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Unblocking him was not the most smartest thing to do, since he has a history of becoming 'Hostile' towards other editors that disagree's with him, I'm not going to Bite him or call him a troll though his attitude is nothing less than what an actual troll does, he earlier created to policies on Meta called Precisionism and Don't be a crybaby with the latter being the one which defines his attitude perfectly..Previously he edited as an anon, where his attitude has been similar and he also had personal Grudges against editors like Sceptre and also making personal attacks against him as well as near edit warring here and on a deleted article maybe to enforce a POV... I don't think this person will ever contribute positively to wikipedia and thats why I disagree with the unbanning...--Cometstyles 02:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Why are the meta essays he wrote particularly bad? I for one find the "Don't be a crybaby" essay, while unfortunately named, a particularly illuminating essay and the approach with which I (try) to approach Misplaced Pages. --Iamunknown 03:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You may have misread Cometstyle's comment. I think it is safe to say that Zenwhat behaves like the crybaby in the essay: he is rude and overly inflammatory. I am not sure if he imagines he is acting like the Zen master of the story, or if he wants to teach us to behave like the Zen master, by openly playing the martial arts student. In both cases this is at the same time a good and useful essay and another example of Zenwhat externalising his faults. There is also a chance that he wrote this essay as a reminder to himself, but then it clearly didn't work. As to "precisionism": I have never heard the term before. Apparently he wanted to popularise it because he thinks it describes his attitude.

The problem I see with the unblock is that it allows him to continue in his delusion of having community support for his disruptions. I hope that the next time he has to be blocked for outrageous activities it will be for less than a week, so that the educational effect won't be spoiled by another unblock. --Hans Adler (talk) 09:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you understand, his behavior, while not the best, didn't warrant a block in the first place. -- Ned Scott 09:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. This is what makes Misplaced Pages great. A user comes here simply to complain about the place and make a scene, gets blocked for it, and scores of admins who apparently don't have time to worry about important things like vandalism reversions and taking care of other ANI posts, sit around and argue about the precise definition of troll. This is almost as bad as arguing about Coolcat's userpage. The fact that I'm edit conflicting in posting here only proves my point. Not that we're feeding, or that I've seen this happen 500 times before or anything. Get on, guys, do something useful; you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. If the user wishes to contribute, let him say sorry now (as the community has so agreed), or he can find another username anyway, which he obviously doesn't. And then END OF STORY, move on. The Evil Spartan (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, we are 7 users who have nothing better to do. The 3 admins in this thread have contributed only 1 post each and didn't argue much about the semantics. I will certainly stop doing it now. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked this was a volunteer project, and users can choose to spend their time in one area or another if they wish. Yes, we could ignore this, but we chose to look at a situation which bothered us, discussed the issue, and I'm sure we hope that the discussion effects more than the immediate issue. -- Ned Scott 10:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

ZW is unblocked. ZW is "retired". ZW chooses not to comment at the AN/I. ZW chooses not to acknowledge any need to respond to the concerns of editors who, collectively, have been attacked and insulted by ZW. All done? Newbyguesses - Talk 12:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat is a extremely intelligent person who unfortunately is badly let down by his equally extremely impetuous nature. If he were to think before he acted more often, he would be a great contributor. He does spot his own mistakes and correct them, which is a sign that he is learning, which is a positive thing. I'm fairly certain that he isn't intentionally trolling. I've been scratching my head about what to do about the impetuousness, though. --Kim Bruning (talk) 13:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a good summary for most purposes, actually. Orderinchaos 16:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Ned Scott's mass-undos on Navigational templates.

I'll repeat what I told another admin just earlier to keep it simple:

"I'm not sure why you told me to go to ANI, the first thing I saw was a notice board telling me to report vandalism at the page that I reported it on. I'll explain the issue to you, perhaps you can help.

Ned Scott is taking ownership of templates that he created on the grounds that he has every right to make each template a unique color and size. Personally, when viewed on the pages these templates are featured on it detracts from the article, and in some cases is a technical issue of being difficult to read due to poor color choice and cause the template to look bad on lower screen resolutions. This is not the reason I posted his username on Admin intervention, the reason is how uncivil he has been towards me and how poorly he has been going about "fixing" the problems that he sees.

He has been using the undo function on about 30 separate templates reverting back to, in many cases, his last personal edit of that template. The problem with this is that in addition to removing the unsightly styling he also removed code tidying that I performed and worse other user edits that include things like adding and updating links, so on and so forth. I have brought this to his attention I believe three times now, but he continue to, by the definition of the word, knowingly vandalize these pages destroying positive and useful edits made by multiple users.

I invited him to discuss the styling issue he had with other members of video game project and me and kick started the discussion. Responses have mostly been that other felt the same way as me about personal styling on what's suppose to be a standardized way of navigating between pages of a related article. In that same discussion another admin warned Ned about using undo, and Ned's response was that he'd stop. He has not stopped. The most recent act of vandalism marks the fourth time he's done blind mass-undos and despite being told in plain english, continuing to ignore changes made by other users. In a few cases other users were turning his edits around in protest, and he goes and revert their changes as well.

Ned has been wholly uncooperative with me about this, I have attempted to communicate and failed, I have brought him into discussion and failed, I have given his very merciful warnings and failed. Unless someone intervenes and puts a stop to it he will continue to disregard his infractions and fellow Wikipedians. He even pulled his own warning off the intervention page, tell me yes or no if that was acceptable behavior.

It is far beyond a simple disagreement and I regret not putting it on the dispute page earlier, but this immaturity is destructive to this project and needs to stop."

If this is the best place to seek help regarding the issue then that's fine, but Ned should know better than to do a blind undo when he's been told repeatedly they are destroying valid changes. He's behaving childish towards me, calling me a liar, etc., and will not attempt to create middle ground. I don't have the patience for blunt-faced attitudes like this so I need help. Thank you. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 07:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a few things wrong in this post. For one, never have I claimed that I created these templates.. I'm not sure why Aeron thinks so. Second, only originally did I completely undo his edits, since I saw his other modifications as minor technical changes. Since then I've made sure that those edits were saved, and made independent edits to add back in custom options that the templates originally had. He's completely wrong about me restoring to a completely older version, even though I've specifically pointed this out to him more than once.

WT:VG#Navbox custom styling, does it improve or reduce the quality of an article? is the discussion he is talking about. You can see that User:David Fuchs's comments, and my response to them, is very different than what Aeron describes. Two editors responded in the discussion that they felt general template standardization was desired, but that's about it.

You can see my original comments to him regarding this issue: , , . If anyone could please talk some sense into Aeron I would be greatly indebted to you. -- Ned Scott 07:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Might as well get in on this while I can. I first encountered a conflict with Aeron here and again here. Notice that I didn't revert the template code back from when it looked like this because I generally agreed with the navbox look; the only issue was the width which I thought didn't look so great when the entire right side of the template is empty when at full width (on my screen). I was going to revert him again on the issue, but then User:Servant Saber got involved, only to revert himself which I found odd, so I checked his talk page and came to this discussion (I'm the 'other guy' he refers to btw) where Aeron talked about how the template at 50% the screen width would look very different then at my full width. Realizing this, I did a test by shortening my browser window and realized what he was getting at, so I went along with his edits. Then Ned got involved and (since I've had a good amount of experience with Ned in the past) I knew things were going to heat up since in my experience Ned can be very steadfast in his points and likes to do things quickly without much hesitation, or so I've come to realize through working with him for close to two years now on various issues. I knew that if Ned started reverting things, Aeron probably would too, and if he did that, Ned would just revert him again, and I see this is what happened, which of course leads us here.

My opinion on this issue falls on three template which I created: {{Key}}, {{Strawberry Panic!}}, and {{Higurashi no Naku Koro ni}}, so naturally I have them on my watchlist, so I was able to notice when the code was being edited. After either Aeron or Ned would edit, I'd come in and create a middle ground so the template still looked nice rather than disjointed, but I didn't revert either of their edits, mainly because I didn't want to get in the middle of it. In the end, the discussion about template widths made me agree that perhaps putting the template on full-width is better, but that's pretty much the only thing I agree with Aeron on regarding these templates. I do not see a problem with the colors, even though I've never used them myself, but that's because I'm too lazy. Also, I saw at {{Navbox}} that there are two bullets you can use in the template, {{·}}, and {{•}}, and seeing as I had a choice between the two, I chose the former since it was less obtrusive and looked better, though Aeron later reverted me on {{Key}} with this edit, saying that the much bolder separators are easier to see on higher resolution screens, and since I didn't feel like edit waring over such a tiny issue, I didn't really care, even if I do prefer the less bolder bullets. This comes back to Aeron's template standardization efforts, and the fact that he is not leaving any room for any deviation from a single standard, but I say what's the point in even having two different bullets to separate links in a template if we are only ever going to use one because it's "easier to see on higher resolutions". Same thing goes for template colors and width choices, since they are still a part of the navbox template code, and they were put there so people wouldn't have to only make a single choice when making a template and could somewhat color outside the lines a bit if they felt like it.

In short, there's no real policy or guideline preventing users from being a bit creative or having the choice what bullet type to use for a given template, and I do not think Aeron really has any real backing in order to systematically alter all the templates used on Misplaced Pages under a single standard due to there being no consensus as to use a single standardized template or not. I'd recommend Aeron start a discussion at WP:MOS or someplace similar which could get a community-wide discussion going as to whether templates should all look exactly the same or not, rather than just a tiny discussion at WikiProject Video Games.--十八 08:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a classic case of WP:BRD with Ned conducing the reverting part. There is no guideline or manual of style recommending the use of {{Navbox}}, so it is left up to the individual template editors and the related WikiProjects on whether to use it and how. --Farix (Talk) 00:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

My monitor is 1680x1050 and only 15.4", and I can see the small bullets just fine. I agree the width probably should be full, since many navboxes need it, and having a standard is usually a good idea; and, horizontal nav bars in web pages general are full-width. It also makes sense since nothing else can/would ever go on the left/right of the box anyway, so I don't see the need to limit the width. Full width means they can be as wide or narrow as people need them to be, as opposed to specifying a set width, which limits everyone needlessly. Equazcion •✗/C • 14:08, 10 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Arcayne's posts in RfC

I've written the following in response to Arcayne's latest lengthy response to two editors on Talk:Harold_Washington#RfC:_How_much_importance_should_be_placed_on_Mirth_.26_Girth_in_Harold_Washington.3F.

"wikipedia's policy's on civility including alluding to other editor's being less informed, intelligent or otherwise seemingly inferior to you are simply not acceptable. Not if you're in a bad mood, not if you feel you've explained everything already or for any other reason. In your latest (and, to me, excessive) reply to me you've insinuated that I'm "huffy or stupid", have "nothing but a bag of personal feelings", called me "parochial", non-objective; you've insinuated that I want to use anything but reliable sources which is simply false. I think you've again crossed the line but I'll invite you to ANI to see if I'm off-base on this."

As I'm one of the involved parties I didn't think I should post a civility warning on their talk page. I also didn't comment on their response, in the same edit, to another user that also seems to be full of borderline statements. This RfC has been a series of editors who state their concerns and this user verbosely counters apparently swaying no one. Personally I would have walked away, however, I feel their aim to install an image that the majority of those editors on the RfC have deemed unneeded is persistent and needs to be addressed. Benjiboi 10:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Previous request for advice. Benjiboi 11:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

My impression is that Arcayne gets away with a lot of incivility and assumptions of bad faith, largely since his comments are just so lengthy. El_C 11:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a good summary. He's gotten better since joining, but he can backslide. ThuranX (talk) 15:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I admit that I can get pretty hot under the collar - as those who have posted in response here have, as well. I will also admit that my growing frustration with what I feel as a small group of three people determined to ignore/misinterpret wiki policy, guidelines and instead display rather OWNish behavior in the article has allowed me to forget to be more patient and polite. I will certainly work on that, and I had in fact apologized for my slip. Feeling a bit like Sysiphus made me lose my temper a bit.

While we are on the topic, it would be splendid to have some admin eyes on the article. Two editors - of which Benjoboi is one - have ignored my suggestions that they consult with an admin on the policy on point, or seek MedCab. - Arcayne () 17:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Why do you need an admin? El_C 17:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Because I think it might be helpful if it weren't just myself pointing out policy and guidelines. I certainly feel that way, esp. when the sole reasoning for keeping the image out is the 'i don't like it' corker. - Arcayne () 19:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I've commented there, but just as a uninvolved user. DGG (talk) 16:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry of Neutralhomer

Per pretty clear evidence at Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Neutralhomer, I have indefinitely blocked Flatsky (talk · contribs) as a sockpuppet of Neutralhomer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) used only when evading blocks. Flatsky's edits all took place during periods when the other account was under a block (within an hour of his Sept. 3 block and two days after his Jan. 10 block). Because of this, I have also reset that Jan. 10 block. Just posting this here for other eyes on it. Metros (talk) 12:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It's getting to the time when we'll need to kick Neutralhomer out for good. He's causing more problems here than he's solving. The next block should really be indefinite. Moreschi 13:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd have done it this time. He's had plenty of chances. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I did have that thought, but decided to just reset it. If anyone wants to open discussion on an indefinite block or just put one in place, they'd have my full support. Metros (talk) 13:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Template:Usercompare β 19:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

 Confirmed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Neutralhomer - Alison 19:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Neutralhomer clearly desires to help edit Misplaced Pages, but his interactions with Calton and JPG-GR tend to be disruptive. Could we try to think of some creative solutions, as opposed to extending the block on the main account? Here are my thoughts.

• One thing that seems to get him into trouble is his use of automated reverts, like TWINKLE & popups. Why not remove all popup-enabled tools from his monobook and then protect it? If he wants to add a script, he could ask a sysop. (I recall that he and Riana are on friendly terms.)
• Also, does he edit in the same areas as Calton? If not, I say we limit both of their interactions with each other. (I say "each other" because interactions, initiated by whomever, between Neutralhomer and Calton, tend to result in Neutralhomer getting blocked.)
• I'm not certain how we can manage his relationship with JPG-GR ... as I recall, they frequently edit in the same areas of the encyclopedia. Perhaps we could do some type of probation or mentorship with an admin?

What do others think? --Iamunknown 21:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The blanking and protection of his monobook was done on one occasion - I think TW is a problem for him but his incivility is far worse. I've often interacted with him *during* his disputes and he's been perfectly friendly to me, and turns around to be as rude as possible to his 'opponent'. JGP-GR has been civil in his interactions with NH, despite his attitude, so I wouldn't object to a mentoring relationship there - I think it would be best to have an admin experienced in that area. Calton goes out of his way to belittle Homer, but if the latter is banned from interacting with him (I'd say they should both be, but Calton doesn't go looking for NH, it's the other way around), I'd be satisfied. ~ Riana ⁂ 01:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Reality check: when Neutralhomer stalks my edits by blindly reverting and then proceeds to leave a series of actively insulting messages on that my talk page ("Ma'am"?), then that is NOT "go out of his way to belittle" him, at least not on this planet. I had not the slightest awareness of his newest incarnation before he inserted HIMSELF into my awareness by the aforementioned behavior. That's a problem with his impulse control and nothing to do with me. --Calton | Talk 03:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

An update: I am in contact with Neutralhomer, who states that he currently retired and that he does not plan to contest the current block on his account. If he were to want to come back (I hope he does), I hope that we would try more creative solutions than, as mentioned above, a swift "kick" and an indefinite block. --Iamunknown 00:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't gonna comment here at all, as I frankly want nothing to do with User:Neutralhomer, but how is his statement of being "currently retired" any different from the large box saying the same thing that he posted on his user and talk pages... before he started editing under a separate account to avoid a block? I have complete faith in the fact that he will be back -- whether he comes back in a month as User:Neutralhomer or turns up under another name remains to be seen. JPG-GR (talk) 03:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Sdfsdfsdfsdfdsdfsdf

I draw your attention to User:Sdfsdfsdfsdfdsdfsdf. I'm 99% sure that someone with that user name isn't here to do much good --Capitana (talk) 14:32, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for violation of WP:U (lengthy and random username). For future reference, there is a dedicated board for reporting inappropriate usernames at WP:UAA. Sandstein (talk) 14:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Except that we don't block lengthy and random usernames anymore. That clause was removed from the policy after a discussion at WT:U where nobody could come up with a good reason why they should be blocked. While it is true that many users with random-looking usernames are vandals, we are already quite good at blocking vandals for vandalism, and this habit of blocking people for "looking like they were about to vandalize" simply created far too many incorrect blocks. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 07:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Jazzing up text with html

A new user has been jazzing up an article (apparently about himself) with html. I reverted it as I presumed it's a violation of WP:STYLE to do this, but I can't actually find anything at the style page that forbids this. Are you allowed to do this or not? Gatoclass (talk) 19:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'd classify that as disruptive. You should politely inform the user on how we format articles, and report him to WP:AIV if he continues to apply idiosyncratic HTML formatting. Sandstein (talk) 19:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It was originally listed for deletion, but I tagged it to be speedied, which was rejected, so the deletion discussion has been resumed. The article creator tried to remove the speedy-deletion tags, which I warned them for. I'm still surprised this article was rejected for a speedy deletion- it has five cleanup tags on it, and appears to be an advertisement and non-notable... Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a blantant copyvio and should be speedy deleted. Lara❤Love 19:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

(after EC)It looks like the jazzed up version was copied/pasted from here. The jazzed up version was then toned down to wikipedia standards but the information remained intact. AngelOfSadness talk 20:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Would anyone object, then, if I tagged it for speedy deletion as a copyvio? Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 20:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: Article has already been deleted. Momusufan (talk) 20:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who rejected that speedy, but I just deleted it. It's not only blatant advertising, it was also a copyright violation in its entirety. A copy/paste including HTML tags of their own website. Unsourceable and placed here only to promote themselves. Lara❤Love 20:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Question - if its his own website, written by himself, why is it a copyright violation? Isn't he simply releasing his work under GNU Free? Avruchtalk 02:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is the bottom of it says: "Created by MK BLITZ Agency. ©2008 Natalia Kruchkevych & Mykhailo Sydorenko. All rights reserved." That's a licence which is incompatible with GFDL/CC. Orderinchaos 08:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

But getting back to the basic principle - where does it actually say you can't use HTML extensively in creating an article? I've always assumed you can't, but I haven't come across anything in the policy pages that says as much. Shouldn't there at least be a line or two in the style guide about this? Gatoclass (talk) 01:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

IP editor being disruptive -please help

Editor 201.245.216.200 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is continuing an ongoing wiki-campaign to disruptively add (randomly inaccurate) information to infoboxes of multiple celebrities without discussion. I noticed this latest time here (edit on Michael J. Fox page diff). Some of the other IP's doing the same thing (most likely the same user) here:

201.245.218.185 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

201.245.216.227 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

201.245.218.124 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

It's all s/he does, I'm tired of dealing with it, more eyes please. And please check all of the latest contributions. Thanks, R. Baley (talk) 20:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Yamla, R. Baley (talk) 21:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

You might want to file a suspected sock complaint. You may be able to take action against the user via that route as well. Lambton /_C 21:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jovin Lambton, and thanks for the suggestion. However, I think it's pretty clear that it's the same user here, so the main questions are: 1) Is the level of disruption worth a range block, (2) how many/what type of users will be affected by a range block?, (3) How long to implement it? I don't know any of those things, so in the mean time I'll just save the post, and if/when it comes up again, re-post with the new info as needed. Is it dull? sure. But it's about all I can do on my end. R. Baley (talk) 22:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, but I would support any effort to block this editor if the use of multiple IPs has had the effect of generating false consensus. Lambton /_C 22:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: disruption resumes

This editor has started back up again (though someone reverted before I noticed it myself on the MJF page). The IP address is:
200.119.56.153 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Thanks for any help. R. Baley (talk) 21:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Ang Lee & Lust, Caution (film) TW vs CN disputes

There seems to be a bit of a cold war going on at Ang Lee, Lust, Caution (film) and probably other, related places. In particular, User:TheAsianGURU has made multiple edits to Lust, Caution (film) to remove or dilute references to Taiwan, such as here. I got involved when I noticed that they had removed a sourced fact and used a misleading edit summary. Can someone step in before this gets out of hand? Thanks. David Lodge (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you mean this edit. The one you point to is an innocuous edit by an anon IP. Wikidemo (talk) 23:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I meant this one, which I have corrected above. Your diff is the edit that got me involved in this. Thanks. I see you got bit by this already . David Lodge (talk) 16:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin Arthur Rubin blocked again for 3RR

I've blocked Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for WP:3RR on Alex Jones (radio) per this 3RR report. Since this editor is an administrator and has been previously blocked before for edit warring on the same article, I'd like for the community to see if there is a possible need for an article probation or other restrictions for this editor. Thanks, Nakon 23:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is that we should leave it at this block for now. Being blocked twice for edit warring on the same an article within a month is a bad sign, true, but I don't think it indicates a need for anything beyond a slightly longer block. If it continues, we may end up back here, but I think we can see if he'll stop after this. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 23:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• It is of course bad practive for any editor to edit war, especially an administrator who should be setting an example to the community. Although the edit warring took place on the the same article as the previous block, we shouldn't hold the fact that he's an administrator prejudice our actions here - how would we react if this was an editor without +sysop? We'd give them their block and that would be all - we wouldn't suggest community restrictions against them on an article. I agree that a block was reuquired, would you consider reducing it down to 48 hours rather than 3 days? It's more in line with similar blocks in the past (yeah, I know it's a pedantic issue). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan Postlethwaite (talk • contribs) 23:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I notice User:Hereward77 was blocked for edit warring on the same article just a few weeks ago and made at least 3 reverts, as did User:Snowfire51 but who has not been previously blocked. I know we hold admins to a higher conduct standard, but neither of these other users were even warned for edit warring. Mr.Z-man 00:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I only made three edits to this article, and tried to get this editor to discuss them repeatedly. I warned him he had already violated WP:3RR, and he blew me off and continued. I stopped at three, and even though I disagree with something on the page now, I have elected to bring it up and clarify it on the talk page, rather than violate WP:3RR. I had no desire to enter into an edit war, I tried to discuss things to gain consensus and this user was not interested in anything that took his edits off of the page. Snowfire51 (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and blocked User:Hereward77 for edit warring as well. He didn't technically violate 3RR, but multiple previous edit warring blocks including one for edit warring on the same article means that he should definitely know better.

To Snowfire51: edit warring does not only become a policy violation after the 3rd revert, it is disruptive from the first. Consider this a warning. Mr.Z-man 00:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Warning received. I stand by my contributions as evidence that I understand policy, and will uphold it in the future. No hard feelings. Snowfire51 (talk) 00:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Do not we hold admins to a much higher standard? Two 3RR blocks in such a short period of time while being an admin is shocking and really very disturbing. What does the community suggest as an appropriate course of action? Bstone (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be unprecedented (and logically flawed) to desysop an admin for edit-warring on a non-protected page, if indeed that's what you're implying. — CharlotteWebb 19:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd advise that the user takes an optional Wikibreak; I think some cooling down is needed if this has happened twice recently. Hopefully this doesn't happen again. Master of Puppets _{Call me MoP!☺} 19:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Arthur needs to take a break or risk losing his bit next time. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin used admin tools while blocked?

Was this block issued by Rubin while he was still blocked? Can a blocked admin still admin? Lawrence § t/e 23:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocks affect the "edit this page" function, but a blocked admin can still block, unblock, protect, and delete. MastCell  04:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Whoa, _WHAT_? I thought that was fixed. I specifically remember a bug that was resolved by preventing all admin actions with the sole exception of a self-unblock (for dealing with accidental blocks, I imagine, since you're not supposed to unblock yourself normally) while blocked. —Random832 17:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmph, maybe. I haven't tried it, but it seemed to me that a recently vanished admin wsa able to delete a few pages after blocking himself. Could be wrong, though. MastCell  18:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Various users stalking and harassing User:Charles

Hello. Over the past few weeks, several people have been harassing User:Charles, calling him a sockpuppet, troll, and various other things, impeding his ability to work on the encyclopedia. I have dealt with this situation twice, short blocks had no effect whatsoever. Please see here and User talk:Keilana/Archive2#Complaint about a stalker for more information. I do think there's a possibility of sockpuppetry between the users mentioned (not Charles), and would recommend an indef block on Tfoxworth (talk · contribs) and I vonH (talk · contribs). Thank you. Keilana| 00:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for filing this report, Keilana. Tfoxworth initially was the subject of a report here a year or so ago (my memory is a little fuzzy on that matter), but it didn't go far because the report was not really noticed (much more must have been going on at the time) a pattern had not yet really developed and it certainly appeared then to be a content dispute. However, over a period of weeks and months it developed into stalking behaviour involving this user, another user who claims to be his wife (I vonH, and therefore his meatpuppet, at the least, on the basis of tag-team reversions and stalking) and a number of proven IP addresses, all of which can be viewed at Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Tfoxworth. Initially, the sockpuppets were all tagged and categorized as a means of organizing a report which was filed more or less at the same time as a previous WP:AN/I report. Over the passing weeks and months, Tfoxworth's and I vonH's behaviour has been consistently disruptive and aggressive and has usually been targeted at me but now also at others who may or may not share my viewpoint. More specifically, I should say people who oppose the two users' viewpoints are those who are targeted. This is a long-term abuse situation that has been steadily going on and I truly feel it should be dealt with accordingly with a final ban, discussed here as a record of the situation. There have also been a number of other similar stalking editors in the past that seem to arrive in a cascading effect but I have not been able to make as clear of a connection between any of them as the obvious connection between the presumed Mr. and Mrs. Foxworth. Charles 02:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Both Tfoxworth and I vonH have *just* turned up reverting a lot of the changes made to a number of articles. Charles 02:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

For example, see Jorge de Bagration. Tfoxworth has removed newspaper citations. Pairadox (talk) 08:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

An editor abusing Rollback privileges

Undead warrior (talk · contribs) has created a number of footer templates for music artists which are OK except the user did not use the correct/standard/consensus colour format and instead has chosen the "more metal" black colour scheme. No big problem. An attempt was made to correct the colour format but the user has decided to vio WP:OWN on the templates and is using his newly acquired rollback permissions to revert constructive edits which are clearly not vandalism. Some of these edits are . The user left a talk page post here in which he states "If you change the colour I will just keep changing them back" Which shows that the user intends to continue to violate WP:OWN and may also ignore WP:3RR to do so. And... for these reverts... is using the 'Rollback' function which is intended for vandal hunting and not edit warring. Can someone take the time to explain WP:OWN, WP:3RR and the proper use of 'rollback' to this user. Perhaps a little WP:CIVIL explanation would help as well. 156.34.234.144 (talk) 01:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this appears to be an abuse of the rollback privileges. This is not clear vandalism that is being committed and he even admits this himself when he says that the changing of the colors is a matter of "personal preference". I think his rights should be removed. I'll leave this here for a bit longer before I do just to get input from other admins first. Metros (talk) 01:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah it clearly looks like abuse of rollback. Removing it seems reasonable. Friday (talk) 01:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

based on the evidence given, the editor is using the rollback tool for edit warring behavior. Jeepday (talk) 01:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Additionally the editor was given the rules that Rollback can only be used to revert vandalism only, and not good faith edits. prior to engaging the inappropriate behavior. Jeepday (talk) 01:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Ryan Postlethwaite got to it just as I was about to edit it. Metros (talk) 01:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse fully. Daniel (talk) 01:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yup, clearly a misuse, hence why I removed it. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it appears editor is using rollback to edit war. Removal is very reasonable.--Ѕandahl 01:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, also, and endorse Ryan's removal. Sarah 01:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It would have been nice to have recieved a little bit of warning before being revoked. The warning came and then the privelages were removed. (i might have spelled that wrong) Either way, I did not know that the rollback tool should not have been used as I had used it. I thought it was being used justly. I had warned the user that his edits were un-constructive. I had reverted them previously and told him where to find the standard template. He just kept on re-doing his old edits without justification. Undeath (talk) 01:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Er, so you didn't read the message left upon being given rollback, nor did you read the extremely clear instructions at the top of the WP:RFR page when you filed your request? I'm sorry, I hardly consider that Ryan's fault. Daniel (talk) 01:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The user's edits were unconstructive because they were at odds with you? GlassCobra 01:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see the notice because after I had edited, I had to wrestle my match. I read the instructons, and I thought that I had given fair warning before I reverted using rollback. I say that his edits were unconstructive becasue they were accomplishing nothing. He just changed the color around. Plus, I have been trying to convert certain templates over to the new template, which, when I was going through this, I would get an edit conflict thus loosing my changes. I have now successfully(spelling?) created the new version of the template for Sentenced. Undeath (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

And after re-doing another template due to another edit conflict, I have successfully(spelling?) created Satyricon Undeath (talk) 02:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent) And "unconstructive" is so clearly the same thing as "vandalism"... also, why were the edit unconstructive? Is standardizing color unconstructive? Nousernamesleft 03:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm having that very conversation with the editor right now at User_talk:Metros#Templates. My main question is why is it "constructive" to make the templates a non-standard color (black) but "unconstructive" to make it the standard colors. Metros (talk) 04:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Response to Nousernamesleft I am trying to state that I warned him that if he was not going to standardize the entire template, like I was in the process doing, then not to do anything to it at all. I kept getting the same edit conflict after a long process of work on a template and, naturally, I became very frustrated. I believe this has been blown completely out of proportion. I made one mistake, or 5 I guess if you want to go with Metros. I made the rollbacks in a very, very short period of time. The warning was given after that(also after I had signed off), and that warning gave me no time whatsoever to redeem myself. Note, before my so called "misuse of rollback", I had used it like it I was supposed to do. Undeath (talk) 04:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

That's where you're wrong. The "warning" was issued to you upon applying for and receiving your rollback privileges. The warning on how to use it and not use it is on the application page as well as in the notice sent to you on your talk page when the rights were enabled. Metros (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The warning was not sent until after the damage was done. At 1:23 you sent the notice, which was after the damage was done, and then at 1:36 the rollback privelages were removed, which, I might point out, I had not made any rollbacks between that time. I had not made a bad rollback between the warning left on my talkpage and the time it was taken away. You can look at my cotributions yourself if you don't believe me. Also, I KNOW that the "how to use it and how to not use it" is on the main page. I had stated that, IMO, I was reverting vandalism. Now, that, by the sound of it, is not your opinion, but it was mine at the time. I was doing what I thought was the right thing. Undeath (talk) 16:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

These edits were not vandalism, and that's not just Metros' opinion - read the definition provided in Misplaced Pages: Vandalism. Natalie (talk) 14:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

NLT Block/Blanking review

Would appreciate another set of eyes. TheDivineDiva (talk · contribs) added fairly clear legal threats to the Captain & Tennille and Toni Tennille articles and talk pages. After a warning, the editor placed another legal threat and I disabled the account. The Captain & Tennille article was also blanked, which I initially reverted. On review; the article does lack sources and I would feel it falls under the BLP guidelines since the text deals with the group members in some detail so I "reset" it myself. Any other opinions are welcome; and admin actions are open for review. Kuru 01:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually in email contect with legal representatives of Tennille - we're making good progress at the minute regarding a compormise and what to do with the article. I deleted Toni Tennille the other day as a BLP violation as it was completely unsourced - I'm currently looking at the Captain & Tennille article and considering what to do with it. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the final warning was given at 1:09 and the editors last edit was to Toni Tennille at 1:06 then they edited to the talk page at 1:12 , would seem to a a copy an paste so, would seem they had a chance to read your comment before final post. I might suggest just a cooling off block of a few hours, and longer later if the behavior reoccurs, the possiblity does exist that they did not see the warning until after the 1:12 edit particularity if they did not refresh a screen between 1:09 and 1:12. Jeepday (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Please be assured that a block would not help the situation. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Alas, I cannot react to off-wiki negotiations; only the on-wiki manifestations. If they will cease with the legal threats, I'd have zero problems with an immediate unblock. Alternatively, an unblock performed by you on the assumption that they will understand the situation. Kuru 02:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't realise you'd already blocked the account. Your block was certainly within policy so it should stand for now. I've emailed the party again - hopefully I'll get a favourable response and we can get a consensus on the matter. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not foresee any reasoning behind the deletion of most of the text of the article on Toni Tennille. There did not appear to be anything libelous in the article, and the only issues were in Marine Jourdan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) having placed ownership on the article in 2006, with a nice bit of text that said he/she was the primary author, which had only recently devolved into blanking the entirety of the article. Is this self-proclaimed fan the "legal representatives" of the Captain & Tennille? Because if so, I think we should restore the article to where it was instead of saying "This isn't sourced entirely; let's remove text that isn't a problem to its subject."—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It's more complex than that, and not something I can really discuss on-wiki. It's Tennnilles legal representitives that have issues with the content that some people have been adding to the article. One of those is Marine Jourdan, and the IP's that have been used by them. As it was unsourced, I see no reason to restore it. Let's start again with a whole new page and get it upto standard without the problematic edits that were in the history. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I've looked again, and I see no conceivably problematic content. Just which paragraphs were objected to? Email me if if that's sensitive, because I cannot imagine what it would be. DGG (talk) 17:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The only thing I can see is that Marine Jourdan is "C & T's biggest fan for 30 years" which does not mean that she is their legal counsel. Just because content was sourced, doesn't mean it was problematic. All I think this is is that Marine Jourdan annoyed that the work she put into the article is not proclaimed in bold text before you read the article and that she attempted to revoke her GFDL on it.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin Nishkid64 blocking users based on favoritism

I have filed a 3RR report on Bakasuprman (talk · contribs) here only to find out that Admin Nishkid64 says he is trying to work this out with Bakaman and not have him blocked here. However, when I went over the 3RR, he blocked me instantly here. This is straight out favoritism and an abuse of power on this admin's part. It is not fair that one editor can have such privileges to avoid being blocked for 3RR violations. Wiki Raja (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You have not presented any evidence that this is due to "favoritism". The circumstances may have been different. Alternatively, he may have simply taken two different courses of action at two different times; there's no algorithm for how to deal with 3RR reports. -- tariqabjotu 03:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect if one has broke the 3RR rule, doesn't that entitled the editor to be blocked? Correct me if I am wrong, but on the 3RR page it states, "The three-revert rule (often referred to as 3RR) is a policy that applies to all Wikipedians, and is intended to prevent edit warring: An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. A revert means undoing the actions of another editor, whether involving the same or different material each time. Any editor who breaches the rule may be blocked from editing for up to 24 hours in the first instance, and longer for repeated or aggravated violations. The rule applies per editor." This was found on the 3RR page here. So, please let me know if 3RR only applies to particular editors (race, caste, creed, sex, nationality). Thank you. Wiki Raja (talk) 03:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

And doesn't the same exact page you just cited say the following: "Just because someone has violated the three revert rule does not mean they will be blocked. It is up to the administrator's discretion whether to take action."? So, in this case, Nishkid64 made some judgment here. Metros (talk) 03:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Raja, I blocked you in September for disruptive edit warring over the addition of WikiProject templates on talk pages. In January 2008, you violated 3RR over the same WikiProject template on an article talk page. I had told you before to seek a consensus before adding those templates back. You failed to engage in such discussion and you violated 3RR, so I blocked you. Also, I did not handle the 3RR report you filed. Bakasupraman contacted me off-wiki hours before, and asked for my thoughts. I reviewed the situation, told him he had violated 3RR, and issued warnings to both Baka and Relata refero. I chose not to block the users because they were engaged in discussion on the article talk page. I was going to protect the page, but I decided to leave it alone for the time being. Nishkid64 (talk) 03:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

So, would it be ok for me to edit war just as long as I have dialog on the page? Wiki Raja (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

3RR violations are handled separately. You engaged in repeated disruptive edit warring, so I blocked you. Bakasupraman has a history of that behavior, but I didn't think it was appropriate to block him (and Relata) when they were both engaging in serious discussion on the talk page. If you had been engaging in serious discussion and violated 3RR, an admin might consider just protecting the page, instead of blocking. However, like I said, it's an admin's call. Different situations need different action. Nishkid64 (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I quite get you on this matter. You state that I did not engage in dialog, when I did engage in dialog here in the section titled Removing WikiProject Templates. But, wait a minute, for some odd reason, my discussion is not shown in the history section here. Now, can you tell me what's going on? Wiki Raja (talk) 04:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Umm...yes, you didn't engage in any serious discussion that would achieve a consensus in your favor. That's why I blocked you twice. You told them not to remove the templates, but I don't see where they commented. The history wasn't deleted at any point, so it's possible that the discussion took place elsewhere. Also, there seems a consensus to not include the template. If the other editors remove the template, do not undo their edits. Get them into discussion, and try to convince them. If that doesn't work, then you could try consulting a larger audience (don't go as far as forum shopping, though). Nishkid64 (talk) 04:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

That's because they didn't bother to reply and continued reverting. When one was coming close to a 3RR, they get another account to continue the revert. Wiki Raja (talk) 05:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that Nishikid is practicing "favoritism". But sometimes I feel that decisions on WP:3rr are handed down (by many admins, not just a particular one) quite inconsistently.Bless sins (talk) 05:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You doubt? Then that means we're not really sure of that. BTW, can there be an explanation as to why my two previous posts which can be clearly seen here under Removing WikiProject templates is not showing in the history section here? Wiki Raja (talk) 05:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about; all of your posts are in the history. -- tariqabjotu 05:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Please take a look at the dates in bold face below really close and show me that it appears in the history.

03:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC):

• Appears on talk page here.
• Does not appear in history here.

06:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC):

• Appears on talk page here.
• Does not appear in history here.

Wiki Raja (talk) 05:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I replied on Wiki Raja's talk page. -- tariqabjotu 06:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Wiki Raja (talk) 06:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone is puzzled by the reference to me. please do have a look at re:3rr. I do think Nishkid has mismanaged a few situations, particularly in his desire to shield someone who really should have been banned by ArbCom three times by now, but I think he's already been madea aware of the problems. I do trust his off-wiki discussions with Bakasuprman will be followed by more careful investigation in future; its not as if Bakasuprman has much of a reputation for accuracy. Relata refero (talk) 07:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not shielding anyone. As I told you already, you made an uncivil comment, and I warned you. Dealing with problematic users doesn't give you a right to violate WP:CIVILITY. Don't make unsubstantiated baseless comments about my actions. Also, I investigated the matter, as I already told you on your talk page. Drop the irrelevant side commentary on Bakasupraman. He has issues with edit warring and incivility, but don't tarnish his contributions, many of which have been beneficial to this encyclopedia. Nishkid64 (talk) 08:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I didnt violate WP:CIVIL, as I have explained at length on your talkpage. There was simply no other way of making that point.

What is an unsubstantiated baseless comment? I have based everything I have said on what you have told me specifically on my talkpage - in a conversation linked above, so anyone can check. Dont make unsubstantiated baseless comments accusing me of making unsubstantiated baseless comments:)

And "side commentary" on a seriously disruptive, POV-pushing, habitually uncivil user who violated 3RR yesterday and didn't even care is hardly irrelevant at AN/I. His mysterious positive contributions, which consist as far as I can see of 50 minimally researched stubs in one subject area where he is not an expert, are not really Giano standard, you know. Relata refero (talk) 08:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget about Bakasuprman's previous edit summaries on Muslims, Christians, and Jews in the following statements:.

This individual has something against folks who do not belong to the same faith as this user which was also the case with the recent 3RR this person committed. Further, the admin who let him of the hook makes me feel that he also favors editors of the same interests. Admin or not, I'll have to state that there sure is a lot of favoritism going on in here. Wiki Raja (talk) 08:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Now, which is lower? Wikiraja trying to divert attention from himself or Relata refero taking a snipe at Bakasuprman from behind Wikiraja? Bakasuprman has been through arbcoms and come out clean. He has been upheld as an editor in good standing by arbcoms more than once. If RR doesnt like it.. just too bad but just dont bring it here and waste people's time. Sarvagnya 21:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Bakasuprman has benefited due to dirty admins playing the favoritism game. Birds of the feather flock together. Wiki Raja (talk) 21:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Sarvagnya here. WR's use of "Jews" in that statement proves that he is attempting to throw mud at the wall (in hopes of some sticking) considering I have collaborated with numerous Jewish users, and no user in good standing has ever indicated anti-Semitism on my part. On the subject of Muslims, Misplaced Pages's articles on Muslim history would be lacking without articles on Khwaja Ahsanullah. Shamsunnahar Mahmud, Habibullah Bahar Chowdhury, etc. Looking at Christians, please do compare Hkelkar's version with mine.Bakaman 03:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like this group is slowly trying to evade the topic on Nishkid64's biasedness towards certain users. You can throw all the piety and adminship talk at me, but the truth shows there is favoritism for editors of the same feather. If favoritism was not the case, I would not have been blocked in a heartbeat and would have been given the chance to speak with an admin just like the chance you gave Bakasuprman. Who is he anyway to receive preferential treatment over other editors? Wiki Raja (talk) 04:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Call for block of Relata refero

Relata refero is an obvious sock puppet account which started editing Misplaced Pages in October 2007. Since then this user has targeted a certain number of users who edit controversial pages. The sole purpose of this sockpuppet has been to cause disruption and enter into disputes. Therefore, a block of this account is called for under the Good hand, bad hand sock policy, perhaps that might encourage this user to login through their original account. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 08:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Who is he a sock of and who is being targeted? Lawrence § t/e 08:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we can apply this Good hand, bad hand sock policy on the Sarvagnya/Gnanapiti accounts. After all, both usernames have been confirmed to belong to the same person here. What's fair is fair. Wiki Raja (talk) 09:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Sir Nick, this is a pretty wild accusation and would need a lot more substantiating. For all I can see, Relata refero is an excellent editor with a wide spectrum of interests. Yes, his early contributions of last October indicate he was probably not a newbie at the time, but that doesn't mean he is an abusive sock. He could be a reincarnation of a user in good standing who left. He could even be a legitimate alternate account, although I doubt that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sir Nicholas is talking rubbish, as usual. There's no reason to block Relata refero: he's been doing a good job in a number of problematic areas. Unless you can prove to me, via checkuser or otherwise, he's an abusive sockpuppet, I will strongly oppose any suggested sanctions. I'm aware that some think he's User:Hornplease, but, with all due respect, Hornplease was not banned, had a virtually clean block log, and has stopped editing anyway! This would be a legitimate reincarnation - and I've seen no compelling evidence to suggest Relata is Hornplease anyway. Moreschi 10:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, Sir Nick is standing right next to the guy here who blocked and then unblocked the confirmed socks Sarvagnya/Gnanapiti. There's a lot of hanky panky going on around here on Misplaced Pages. It's time for a serious cleanup before this gets out of hand. Wiki Raja (talk) 10:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not usually quick to shout "admin abuse" or "cabal", but Sir Nick is really pushing it here. Relata refero is an excellent encyclopedia editor, and I'd trade ten Sir Nicks for one of those any day. dab (𒁳) 11:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The accusations against Relata refero are baseless and absurd accusations. And I will echo Wiki Raja's comments above. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Nick, please strike this attack on Relata Refera unless you can provide hard evidence that the general community can review. Lawrence § t/e 18:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Unlikely. Wouldn't litigiousness befit a lawyer in training? rudra (talk) 19:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that Gnanapiti and Sarvagnya were initially confirmed as sockpuppets because of geographic similarities. A later CU showed that they were indeed two separate users. Nishkid64 (talk) 19:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Come on. This dirty cover up is getting so old. Wiki Raja (talk) 21:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Raja is begging to be blocked himself, by raking this issue up again, for no reasons, and without having any recent findings. Per the previous discussion with another admin, he is not supposed to bring this up again, but he has violated that. See the discussion, here. As I have mentioned in "Wiki Raja" section above, these kind of disruption is happening time and again, and there is absolutely no use to Misplaced Pages with all these, and is just consuming time of everyone. I call for an immediate block on User:Wiki Raja. Thanks - KNM 22:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This mobster and bully mentality on Misplaced Pages has got to stop! Wiki Raja (talk) 22:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Not commenting on Nishkid64 or Wiki Raja, Relato refero is a very serious and dedicated wikipedian. He regularly shares his thoughts on WP:RSN and other policy making venues. While he has been involved in disputes (I can name you admins that have been involved in ugly disputes), his overall contribution to wikipedia is positive. No evidence above has been provided that would suggest otherwise.Bless sins (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• do not endorse - I do not endorse any sanction against relata refera. the user is a good editor, who works hard for the encyclopedia. there are many others who should be shown the door prior to relata refera. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 22:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

YHBT. HTH. rudra (talk) 00:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt Nick would be making such allegations without evidence to back it up. I'm sure Nick will be able to properly substantiate the aforementioned claims. Similar editing patterns on Narendra Modi, Nandigram massacre and Sonia Gandhi for a start piqued my suspicions, and the basically identical wording and attitude on talk pages confirmed my suspicions. I would assume Nick has something that is more convincing, which he will probably disclose in the near future, considering that he has not taken action yet.Bakaman 03:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

And all one has to do is just click on your username and see your resume. Wiki Raja (talk) 04:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like this group is slowly trying to evade the topic on Nishkid64's biasedness towards certain users. You can throw all the piety and adminship talk at me, but the truth shows there is favoritism for editors of the same feather. If favoritism was not the case, I would not have been blocked in a heartbeat and would have been given the chance to speak with an admin just like the chance you gave Bakasuprman. Who is he anyway to receive preferential treatment over other editors? Wiki Raja (talk) 04:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Pursuant to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Hkelkar 2#On notice, I hereby hit Wiki Raja on the head with a stick. Clobbering received necessitates 48h resting period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops, someone beat me to it anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Indef block review of User:TlatoSMD by Rlevse

• TlatoSMD (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks)

• See here

I personally agree with this indefinite block, but I think because TlatoSMD has made some contributions worth keeping and has been an editor on the English and German Misplaced Pages for some time the ban should get wider review. Avruchtalk 02:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• It's hard to disagree with the blocking admin's rationale left on User talk:TlatoSMD. The disruption and incivility needed to be permanently stamped out. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 03:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I fully support this block, and would have advocated an indefinite block on Tlato long ago. Keilana| 03:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with this block. Just as 3RR isn't licence to revert an article 3 times, everyday, no matter what, DRV isn't a forum to rehash every XfD that closed against one's interests. Also, the continued incivility from this user WP:NPA and his attempts at WP:GAMEING the system are a major issue. MBisanz 03:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly endorse the block per the sound rationale left by the blocking admin. TlatoSMD is a disruptive SPA who has tried so hard to game the system for weeks now, and has repeatedly disrupted deletion processes in an attempt to push a POV. The incivility is just icing on the cake. --Coredesat 03:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse per my comment on the user's talkpage . Disruptive and combative user. WjBscribe 03:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose the indef block. An indef block is excessive - I would recommend a temporary block. (The following rationale for this has been copied from TlatoSMD's Talk Page)

While it's true that TlatoSMD can use a bit more tact in his commentary from time to time, indef blocking seems wildly inappropriate in this situation. His confrontational and "snappy" responses and exclamations are a result of what this individual perceives to be unrelenting attacks and POV-pushing by both regular editors and admins. Although he may have stepped out of line several times with his tone and heavy-handed words, I can't say I completely disagree with his interpretation of what has been happening on Misplaced Pages, especially in regards to PAW articles and their editors, for the past year or so. A great deal of misrepresentation is occurring, biases are clouding both editing and discussion, and a multitude of editors are refusing to engage in direct debate, preferring to completely disregard positions they personally disagree with. The fact that a number of admins have been either apathetic to TlatoSMD's situation or, in fact, engaged in the very same nonconstructive practices just mentioned has frustrated TlatoSMD quite a bit. Placed within such a hostile environment, and ignored by many regular editors and admins alike, TlatoSMD began to pick his words with less tact than is expected. Although some may be correct in asserting that some sort of block is in order, maybe even longer than several days or a week, indefinite blocking this individual would not benefit the project as a whole. Misplaced Pages will be hurt if it loses yet another intelligent, well-read, and usually civil editor, who's not afraid to speak his mind and to point out policy violations and POV-pushing when they occur, even at the risk of opposing many influential Wikipedians. A temporary block may be in order, so that TlatoSMD rethinks his approach to commentary and regains appreciation for civility, but an indef block will do nothing to improve the quality of Misplaced Pages or its articles. The controversial PAW articles will definitely suffer, and an indef block will only fuel the growing suspicion that there's censorship taking place on Misplaced Pages, and that having a controversial take on subjects is a bannable offense. ~ Homologeo (talk) 03:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Now, to respond quickly to the reasons provided by Rlevse for the indef block. First of all, I fail to see any conclusive evidence that TlatoSMD is a single purpose account. Although a great deal of this user's recent edits have focused on PAW articles, his contribution history, via both his current and previous accounts, clearly shows that he has edited a variety of articles. Besides, being an SPA is generally poor grounding (in and of itself) for indef blocking. Next, his "snappiness" and (what can be deemed by some) uncivil behavior can be addressed with a temporary block - no indef block is necessary. Besides, this is only the third block this editor ever got, and all the blocks were recently received in regards to the ongoing discussions surrounding the deletion of the "Adult-child sex" article and of the various drafts that attempted come up with a quality representation of this controversial subject. Then, even though this is a very "icky" topic for many, TlatoSMD followed proper Misplaced Pages procedures in contesting the deletions just mentioned. Thus, his actions to this regard should not be grounds for an indef block. As for the supposed "canvassing," this behavior can be addressed by warnings or a temporary block - once again, no indef block is called for. Lastly, this editor is quite capable of editing articles constructively and civility, as his editing history clearly demonstrates. To assert that TlatoSMD is "not here to be constructive" is to blatantly ignore all his contributions prior to his controversial conduct in the recent debates. There's much that this editor can contribute to Misplaced Pages. And, yes, enforcement of policy and emphasis on NPOV are just two of the positives that TlatoSMD generally brings to the table. ~ Homologeo (talk) 03:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You're misquoting me, I did not say he was a sock, I said his admitted doppelganger account, see this prior version of his user page. Also, I protest your claim this is censorship, the issue is incivility and disruption. As for his good edits, that is not a defense, per Jimbo's link below. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for misreading a part of your comment. I have now adjusted my response to account for the assertion that TlatoSMD is an SPA. As for the "doppelganger" comment, I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand. As far as I know, many editors mistakenly create several spellings of their username and only end up using one of the account. Since this is his primary account, and the combined contribution history of his current and previous account show editing in a variety of articles, I fail to see what makes TlatoSMD an SPA. Besides, as stated above, being an SPA, even if this was true of this particular editor, is generally poor grounding (in and of itself) for an indef block. ~ Homologeo (talk) 04:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

There is also no assertion that your particular indef blocking of TlatoSMD is censorship. What I said was that this "indef block will only fuel the growing suspicion that there's censorship taking place on Misplaced Pages, and that having a controversial take on subjects is a bannable offense." I'm not saying that this is true, but it's foolish to deny that such observations are being made about the project, especially after a number of controversial indef blocks in the past year or so. ~ Homologeo (talk) 04:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

TlatoSMD Review Break

• Has he been blocked or banned? Regardless, indef is def excessive. Firstly, he is not a Single Purpose Account as was said in the blocking rationale on his talk page. At least, not according to his contribs history. Blocking is not supposed to be used as punishment or to make a point, regardless of what Jimbo says. I'd say a timed block, as in 24 hours if he hasn't been blocked before to 48 hours if he's only been blocked once before to a couple of days or week depending on recent past block count, would be more appropriate in dealing with his incivility. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 03:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

He's blocked, not banned. Even if one accepts the argument that he's not an SPA, there's still plenty to support an indef on this highly disruptive user. Short blocks have not worked. There is way more than his incivility. His statements (see quotes I made on his user talk page) show no sign of acknowledging the collaborative nature of wikipedia. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Firstly, Avruch has my deep respect for bringing this here, even though he agrees with the block, because bringing it here for wider review was the right thing to do. Good call and thank you.
  • Keilana will of course support the block because TlatoSMD rightly challenged her deletion of a page without rationale.
  • When we are talking about a permanent ban on a user, we have to really look at it. Why? I have seen vandalism-only accounts and vandalism-only IP's blocked for 24 hours, only to go through the entire process again. I have seen the most aggregious name-calling and personal attacks go without rebuke at all. But TlatoSMD is uncivil and warrants a permaban? That is, quite simply, ridiculous.
  • So, why is this user being banned? Because he is right. Not entirely, and not always, but he is absolutely right in that he demands that Misplaced Pages policies be followed, and he has made no attempt to hide his feelings about clear policy violations. Pages that do not warrant deletion are being deleted. Personal attacks on him and others go without even warnings. And when he responds in kind, he is banned. What sort of precedent does this set?
  • There is the canvassing issue. Firstly, let's even assume it was canvassing (which it was not); is canvassing once worthy of a permanent ban from Misplaced Pages? Of course not.
  • TlatoSMD is by no means a Single-Purpose Account, and even if he had an uber-narrow focus, so what? Sockpuppet? No. Focused editor? Sure, why not? Who cares, though. His contributions have been very good and he has spent more time and effort on articles than some who only have worked to tear articles down. Are we going to start banning everyone who edits in a narrow range?
  • The bottom line is that this ban is egregiously over-the-top. I can agree that TlatoSMD has been aggressive. TlatoSMD has even rufled many feathers (gasp!). But to be permanently banned for this? Come on now... don't we all, as a community, have better things to do that force this issue? How about blocking intentional, blatant vandals for more than 24 hours at a time? TlatoSMD deserves time to cool off and continue editing constructively.
  • Let's drop this block to 24-36 hours, shake our collective finger at him, and move on...
  • VigilancePrime (talk) 04:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC) :-)

For what it's worth, I'm not supporting the block because he " rightly challenged deletion of a page without rationale". First of all, I did provide a rationale, which he disagreed with. Fine. He had every right to DRV the article. However, after the n incarnation, it became clear that he was an SPA. He has acted uncivilly, and the net gain to the project of unblocking him would be much less than the net loss from all the drama and incivility that follows him around. Keilana| 04:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It became clear he was an SPA? Have you not taken the time to look at his contribs? He is definitely not an SPA. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 04:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it did. I have read his contributions, FWIW. He has barely any article-space edits, effectively everything he does is related to this one article. Keilana| 04:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

VigilancePrime--There's way more to this than Keilana and other edits. That three admins deleted that page shows there's considerable support to do so and that TlatoSMD is not correct in his actions. And again, he is not banned, there is a difference in a ban and an indef block. Your claim that he's being banned because he's right is ludicrous. — Rlevse • Talk • 04:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, even though he is not technically "banned," TlatoSMD is now incapable of editing articles, so how is this different from a ban? ~ Homologeo (talk) 04:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

See WP:BLOCK and WP:BAN. Keilana| 04:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• The confusion there is probably my fault for naming the section "ban" - technically he is blocked, but if no one unblocks him it has the effect of a community ban. Avruch 04:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It's like the verifiability vs. truth argument. He may be right, but right is subjective, and his opinion of right has been shown to be against consensus. I have also refactored your comments' formatting and removed the annoying red box. Keilana| 04:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Disruptive SPA sums it quite nicely. In my opinion, indef is a good call. – Sadalmelik (talk) 04:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Agreed with this analysis (after having seen the user at a few of the debates). Orderinchaos 04:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly I support this block, he has been incredibly uncivil and disruptive and short blocks perpetuated the situation. WP is better off without users like this. Viridae 04:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Keilana, replied to your note on my talk page. Thank you for asking and no, I don't think you're self-important.
• Second, the difference between Indef block and Ban is purely semantic. Spare me.
• Third, Keilana closed the original debate w/o stated rationale, and that caused a firestorm (on all sides, ultimately). That led to Tlato being less-than-kind toward her, and thus I would expect a certain dislike for him. I would be too, so that's not meant as a slight against her.
• Fourth, counting admins is useless. Yes, three admins deleted the pages. Just as many kept the original page, protected the original page, or agreed that the pages should stay. In fact, more. Spare us the "so-many admins (as if that makes opinions more valuable?) did this or that". Poor argument.
• When it comes down to it, "we" would rather protect those who intentionally destroy Misplaced Pages (blocking vandals for 24 hours at a time, no matter their history?) and wash ou hands of someone who is so committed to Misplaced Pages as to fight for it. I do not disagree that T's comments have been unnecessarily aggressive. But a lifetime ban? Come on now... let's use our common sense. If "we" want to set this precedent, can I bring you twice as much evidence about another user, who has in fact taken part in name-calling and personal attacks and you'll permaban/permablock them as well? Give the word and I'll give the links, quotes, and diffs. But make me that promise first.
• Let's set some sort of consistency. Everyone in this debacle has had some sort of culpability in it, including me. I haven't been the most pleasant at times (longer ago). Neither has anyone else, admins most often included. Let's not overreact here. I would recommend a few cement trucks worth of Good Faith just be poured over this entire situation.
• VigilancePrime (talk) 04:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

 Question: What is the status of this page now? Its called "Der paedophile impuls" and is written in German, and it is apparently a copy of an article that was deleted on de.wiki. Avruch 04:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

That would need to be brought up on de.wiki; it may have different standards and processes than en.wiki. --Coredesat 05:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The userpage is here, though. Its a copy of a deleted de.wiki article, but he's ported it here for translation. Avruch 05:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I was about to strike my comment after misreading it. The page should be deleted. --Coredesat 05:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

 Done Spartaz 05:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I also support this block, and would support a ban as well. This is a highly disruptive user who continually insults and attacks other users, even continuing to be so blatantly uncivil that during a block today his userpage had to be protected due to his outrageous behavior. TlatoSMD has attacked several administrators, accusing them of blatant lying , having “faulty rationale” and being neglectful by turning a blind eye to vandalism. TlatoSMD has acted in a disruptive manner in every MfD DRV and MfD he's been involved in, while continuing to insult administrators and other editors after being warned time and time again:. These are just some of the most recent incidents, the user has a long history of attacking and insulting other editors and tendentious editing. Dreadstar † 05:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse block. I simply can't see how this user can ever work collaboratively with editors they disagree with. Spartaz 05:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

While TlatoSMD may use excessively colorful words at times and has lately been upfront about his sentiments concerning others, his civility problems can be addressed with a temporary block, even a long one. An indef block is really inappropriate, especially considering that most criticism of his editing is directed at his commentary surrounding this one particular issue. This has been an upstanding, constructive, and generally civil editor in most other contexts. As for his critique of other editors and admins, and their editing practices - as long as this is done in a tasteful manner, and proper reasoning is provided, there's nothing wrong with such criticism. If it's established that TlatoSMD has been uncivil as of late, he should be blocked, but not indefinitely. I'm not sure how his constructive editing of other articles, and even of PAW articles before this messy situation, can be diminished by recent events and be completely disregarded. ~ Homologeo (talk) 05:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Civility blocks have had no effect on this user - he was blocked on 4th Feb for 48 hours and was still being uncivil and offensive yesterday when I blocked him for calling another user a liar. I certainly didn't see any evidence from their talk page that they understood they had crossed a line. Quite the opposite in fact. Too much agression & refusal to moderate unacceptable behaviour is not collaborative. Spartaz 05:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Then, by all means, extend the block. But there's no need for idef blocking, especially considering the consistent constructive contributions on the editor's part in the past, before this messy situation. ~ Homologeo (talk) 05:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at his contributions, he has ~20 unrelated contributions since he joined. That's not at all consistent. Keilana| 05:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Hardly a Single-Purpose Account.

Edits to Spontaneous‎, Jihad‎, Sodomy‎, Kurgan hypothesis‎, Counterculture of the 1960s‎, Dialectic of Enlightenment‎, Níð‎, Right-wing Authoritarianism‎, The Holocaust‎, Nazi occultism‎, Michael Naumann‎, Child sexual abuse‎, Donald Duck pocket books‎, Adolf Hitler‎, Velvia‎, Kodachrome‎, Proto-Indo-European religion‎, Dialectic of Enlightenment‎, Pedophilia‎, Repressed memory‎, and Pro-pedophile activism‎, five of his edits, even though made awhile back, are still the most recent to their pages.

VigilancePrime (talk) 05:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Most of the articles in your list are related to the "adult/child sex" topic. One edit to a disambiguation page is irrelevant, as are the few other topical edits TlatoSMD has made. TlatoSMD is a single purpose account not because he has edited a single article, but because the vast majority of his edits have been to a group of related articles in a manner which is not aligned with Misplaced Pages's neutrality or advocacy standards. The SPA concern pales beside the disruptive nature of this user's editing habits. Dreadstar † 06:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a word: this account may or may not be disruptive, but this particular act - that of submitting the user copy page to DRV was not "disruptive, abuse of process, and a WP:POINT violation". The MfD was a complex situation, with several different reasons brought up by different people in a long discussion. (I voted delete, incidentally, and still think that deletion of the material is best.) Riana's closing rationale was really, really, uninformative; and her justification in the subsequent DRV was simply appalling. You do have to have a bit of chutzpah to say that after that a DRV was out-of-process. Relata refero (talk) 07:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I agrre that this editor has been an SPA, and even worse, has been an aggressive POV-pusher. I don't see any article that he's improved, and he's fomented a lot of disruption. I think a ban is appropriate and necessary. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I don't disagree about the block, but I gotta ask (since it's been the subject of a few discussions of interest to me), what does being an SPA have to do with it? -- Ned Scott 11:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• He is here mainly to push a pro-pedophile POV based on his edits (and he is doing so in an uncivil manner, which is the basis of the other problems he has), and that is something that can't be tolerated. --Coredesat 19:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, but my point is that he would still be blocked even if he was pro-pedo and edited articles about apples. Being an SPA is unrelated. -- Ned Scott 03:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Well, I would hope that your assumption would be proven wrong, cause I don't see how an indef block would be justified in the scenario you just described, unless of course the editor finds a way to be disruptive when editing an article about apples. ~ Homologeo (talk) 11:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse block, he's exhausted my (admittedly limited) patience and then some. People should be careful to pick the right fights; this was the wrong one on a number of levels. Guy (Help!) 10:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse block, per all the others that agree above. Whether he is or isn't an SPA is moot; the other evidence alone supports an indef. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 12:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse - sorry, the DRV was pure disruption. Will 13:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse block—a rather textbook block: the net negative effect of this user's contributions are far outweighing the positive effect. I fully endorse to prevent any further disruption. Anthøny (talk) 13:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• Endorse block- This user has got enough "final warnings" and enough blocks and chances to reform edits. Users actions seems like he/she refuses to do so and thus deserves the blocks and some more. Sorry Watchdogb (talk) 00:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
• I endorse this block, too. Unbelievably disruptive abuse of process over a single article... enough is enough. :/ krimpet✽ 00:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppet

This guy is someone's sockpuppet. I can't remember who's, though maybe one of you can. The history is the guy only edits his own page and always has all caps username. Please block, and if you know who it is, please tag him. Thanks. The Evil Spartan (talk) 07:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the contributions I don't see any disruptions, vote-stacking etc. If you have reason to believe that this is a sock of a banned user, then I guess we should block him/her. I suggest we wait and see how this user edits the mainspace.Bless sins (talk) 07:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

By all means. In fact, this user has created several sockpuppets, and as said, has been blocked in the past for constantly creating WP:MYSPACE violation accounts, of which this is clearly just another. Therefore, let me make clear, that even if the user wasn't officially banned, he was blocked for precisely this type of action. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a valid request. I do remember the case from AN/I last month or maybe the previous, I've also unfortunately forgotten the identifying details. Orderinchaos 10:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Threats and unacceptable behaviour

The user Wilhelmina Will delighted us with outburst such as this already yesterday and was warned that such behaviour is unacceptable . Today, the user is back threatening me with a hospital visit . JdeJ (talk) 08:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Gave him a level 4 warning about civility. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

No final warning needed after that ("you will have more money than you could ever dream of spending, but you'll never have enough to pay your medical bills") threat, or "curse." Blocked for 24 hours. El_C 10:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Administrator removing NPOV tag on Hilary Clinton BLP after 13 minutes

NPOV tag says "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." User:Stephan Schulz removed taghere. Tvoz did the same 2 weeks ago. There have been 8 different editors expressing 8 different specific npov concerns, yet article managers/watchers will not allow NPOV tag to stay on the article long enough for the broader community to reach a consensus.

Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 13:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I have had a look at the article talkpage. It seems pretty active, with participants including you and Tvoz. Therefore whatever POV concerns there are seem to be debated. NPOV tags are fine where an article is inactive, or there is only one POV that is being given, but where there is active debate it may itself be POV to place such a tag on the article; as it is a bit like waving a flag saying "Beware - this article may not be 100% accurate/unbiased" which could be considered sensitive under the current circumstances. I shouldn't worry too much about the process, just as long as your concerns regarding the content are being addressed. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• For the record, I just removed M.ge's POV-tag that he readded. This article (as well as Barack Obama's) has a long history of people using the POV-tag (and other tags as well) as weapons to try to force the content they want into the article. Bellwether _C 14:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• This "Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved." is what I am relying upon.

It's ridiculous that the NPOV tool (tag) is being seen (not only in this article) as as a "weapon" or red flag. Where is that paranoia and assumption of bad faith coming from? It's not to be found in policy. Maybe "POV-check" is seen as less of a weapon; I'll put that on as a last effort. Or maybe the NPOV tag should be dispensed with if it has taken on various negative assumptions as to its intent; but it's patent nonsense to have a NPOV policy endorsing the use of the tag which article watchers/managers quickly remove. Mr.grantevans2 (talk) 14:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Last sentence of the second paragraph at WP:NPOVD says that "tags should be added as a last resort". I maintain that since the talkpage is very active then the likelihood is that any one area of disputed POV is being discussed, and if an area of dispute isn't being discussed it is because the previous one hasn't been agreed on yet. As for your own example, I note that tags may be removed if there is consensus; and since different editors have seen fit to remove the tag then there is likely consensus to do so. As for accusations of bad faith, I would comment that there seems to be an assumption on your part that removal of the tag by "article watchers/managers" is itself a biased action, even though it appears that you are active on the talkpage. Finally, NPOV/D does not endorse use of the tag - it allows/permits its use, per my first point. I doubt if you are going to get a sysop to intervene in this matter, and can only suggest that you raise this point with whatever other concerns you have with the article at that talkpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Siddharth.igcse

• User:Siddharth.igcse seems to be a vandalism-only account. His latest marauding () was in Fuck#John le Fucker, replacing "John" 3 times by an Indian name. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Likely. User has only 8 edits and almost all of them are vandalism , , , . --Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Note: the last one was almost a week ago. - Revolving Bugbear 14:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I have issued him/her a level 3 vandalism warning. --Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 14:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Nah, I indefblocked. Clearly nothing but vandalism was ever going to come from that account. Enough already. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

factual error on the main page

Factual errors on the main page makes all of us look bad, but only admins can fix such problems. Can someone with sysop powers attend to the error reports at WP:ERRORS, pls? Thanks. --74.13.129.197 (talk) 15:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed the two reports for DYK. Nakon 15:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick response. --74.13.129.197 (talk) 16:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

User canvassing for RFC certification

. Enough already. Can we get action on this user? This is just out of hand. Background: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:BQZip01/Comments . Lawrence § t/e 17:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Not sure asking two people is really in the realms of disruptive canvessing, and given that people certifying are "Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute", if they haven't they can't certify. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 18:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Read the MFD and comments from the parties involved in the canvassing for the full context. This whole thing has basically turned into an effort to do a retaliatory smear against User:Cumulus Clouds. Lawrence § t/e 18:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree strongly with the above editor. I do not think notifying two people about an RfCU which they could potentially certify qualifies as canvassing. The editor is simply pointing out to two editors whom he believes could certify that the RfCU has met the two person threshold has been met that they could indicate as much. It is a bit of a request, but it basically as neutrally-worded, and certainly about as short, as such a request could be. I don't see any reason to believe that the behavior guideline has been violated in any meaningful way. John Carter (talk) 18:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well your message is rather opaque, perhaps if there is stronger background to believe something disruptive is occuring you should post more complete information and not assume everyone reading here will have an indepth knowledge of the background. I haven't gone off and looked but stand by my original comment. The only people eligible to certify the RFC is a pretty limited audience, if those two aren't in the correct position to certify, then they'll be ignored and the RFC closed anyway. If there was a broader audience who could certify that the message should have gone to, I'm not sure it makes much difference, they've restricted the possibility the RFC will be certify by not giving a broader coverage. Remember everyone can participate in the RFC if it is certified and all parties to the dispute are going to be the subject of the comments, including the originator. --81.104.39.63 (talk) 18:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You are supposed to have others certify and sign that they have attempted to dissipate the problem. How else am I supposed to let them know? Are they just supposed to watch the entire page 24/7 and see if a dispute they were interested in pops up? You will note I did not ask them to support me in any way, only to certify that there is a basis for the dispute. If you will also note, they have not endorsed my opinion either. Perhaps this could be clarified in the directions. — BQZip01 —  22:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I have not had a dispute with any of those editors outside of a pre-existing conflict with you. None of them have previously attempted to resolve any dispute with me, but all of them have voted in your favor or argued in your defense on the MfDs, in the original ANI request and at your RfA. Your request for their assistant was performed in bad faith. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• That they had an opinion regarding the subject is irrelevant. It is simply certification that they have tried (and talk pages qualify too). It doesn't mean that anyone should/shouldn't support/oppose based on that input, but that something has been tried and didn't work. No malice should be assumed in certification (it is merely acknowledging that a conflict exists - I think we can both agree on that - and that this is the appropriate forum - which it is). — BQZip01 —  22:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• He may correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not in conflict with Johntex (or BillCJ) about anything outside of your dispute with me. Neither of these users have ever engaged me in a discussion about any of my edits independent of the MFD, ANI or RFA. I don't see how either one of them could certify this issue. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 23:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering that part of the problem was your edits on the RfA, ANI, and MfD, his input certainly is valid. You don't have to have a conflict with him personally for him to certify he tried to resolve the dispute and failed. — BQZip01 —  23:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• This was not user canvassing with respect to the message on my page at all. I had already declared my intention to certify the RFC. BQ was just letting me know it was ready. Johntex\ 22:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The same here. People should read WP:CANVAS. This is not a violation, regardless of who is being asked. A few more recruits, and it would be good of someone to investigate any possible partisanship, though. Lambton /_C 23:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

During the recent ArbCom election, I asked the candidates for their views on the fairness of RFC's on user conduct. One of the most mentioned problems was insufficient input. Posting messages to talk pages is one of the few methods available and known to an average editor. To say that the people involved in an RFC (on either side) can't use this method would be ridiculous. Wanderer57 (talk) 01:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Mondrago socks an IP's

On 2 February User:Nakon added asiafanclub.com to the MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist in response to this thread at WP:ANI. This link has since been removed from the blacklist by CIreland as stated in this comment.

• Talk:Asia (band)#Fan club link blacklisting as well as the preceding discussion:
  • Talk:Asia (band)#External links dispute
  • Talk:Asia (band)#Semi-protection removed
  • Talk:Asia (band)#Arbitrary break
• User talk:Nakon#Spam blacklist
• MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#asiafanclub.com

Earlier discussions:

• Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Mondrago
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive362#Linkspammer issuing legal threats on talk page

Accounts/IPsocks used by Mondrago

Template:MultiCol Mondrago (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
70.188.184.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.91 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.203 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.167 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.117 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

| class="col-break " | 4.238.124.147 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.149 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.212 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
156.34.220.66 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.127.202 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
32.141.139.251 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

| class="col-break " | 70.167.100.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
70.188.184.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
32.141.139.251 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
70.167.100.82 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.75 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
32.137.247.56 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
4.238.124.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
Template:EndMultiCol Since the de-listing, I've had to block Mondrago's main IP 70.188.184.84 for linkspam warring on Asia (band);

• 1st revert: 11:55, 10 February 2008
• 2nd revert: 12:00, 10 February 2008
• 3rd revert: 12:08, 10 February 2008
• 4th revert: 17:18, 10 February 2008
• Diff of 3RR warning: 16:44, 10 February 2008

Asside from the obvious lack of consnsus for inclusion, the link invariably fails the requirements of our External Links and Reliable Sources guidelines. I would be interested in broader consensus on the issue. --Hu12 (talk) 18:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• I agree and have re-added it to the local blacklist for now. This is being discussed at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist, so I guess we probably don't need it here as well. Guy (Help!) 19:57, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Mike0001

On February 5th, User:Mike0001 edited the Rough Collie article by adding some NPOV remarks, an image of his pet collie, and a spam link. I reverted the changes and left him a level 1 NPOV warning. The next day, he put back the image again, which was again removed as it did not comply with WP:IMAGE (doesn't illustrate the text) and the article is far too short to support anymore images. Two days later (i.e. today), Mike reverted that removal, as well as edits in between calling it "vandalism". I undid again, and apparently he has decided that he is going to edit war over the issue. We have been back and forth for almost an hour, with him not only trying to readd the picture, as well as breaking the article in attempts to denote a whole paragraph as needing citations. In readding the picture, he also reuploaded it (first as Image:Shadow Rough Collie.JPG then as Image:Lamtara Golden Spritzer.jpg), seemingly in an attempt to disguise that it is a picture of his pet collie. I've attempted discussing the issue with him on his talk page, after leaving another warning, but he continues to just put it back and put it back.talk page diff, since he's since erased all messages I finally left him a 3RR warning (which he'd long since violated), and he responded by leaving me two. He also seems to be engaging in edit disputes on other articles including Faust (History), Boiling to death(History), and List of nontheists (History) among others (a quick look at his contribs show quite a few, but these are some of the most recent). Anyone undoing his NPOV, unsourced, and often blatantly wrong edits is apparently a vandal.

At this point, my temper is too high to keep dealing with him, and in undoing his mess, I've also gone past the 3RR mark, so I'm asking for admin intervention. While I was working on this report, the was been protected, to a previous bad version, by another admin. As soon as the protection is gone, I'm sure Mike will continue his campaign, and meanwhile he will continue to cause problems on other articles. Collectonian (talk) 17:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

merged from other thread. Black Kite 18:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

User Collectonium seems to think that he is the only person allowed to edit the Rough Collie. This is not WP policy! Also Lamtara Golden Spritzer is registered, has a pedigree, and is called Shadow by his family!

All the edits I make here and elsewhere are well justified. I am a retired academic! NOT a vandal. Mike0001 (talk) 17:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, the dispute seems to be about the inclusion of Image:Lamtara_Golden_Spritzer.jpg in that article, and is referring to User:Collectonian - I fixed the spelling and added a link in the header. —Random832 17:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be an actual report, or a response to my report two up from this? Of the latter, can it be moved up to keep the conversation in one place. Collectonian (talk) 18:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to seem spammy, but I'm restoring again as Mike decided to vandalize one of my user pages last night since the rough collie article is still locked. I don't suppose someone will look at it now? Collectonian (talk) 19:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

From a look through the dispute, it's not really a huge issue, and really should be directed more towards dispute resolution than for admin consideration. I've suggested to Mike that he not edit other peoples' userpages like that in the future, and suggested he look at WP:3O or an RFC. I'll keep an eye on things, in case there's further issues. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I might agree, except now he appears to be Wikistalking and being harrassing. He has left comments like this and this when I leave someone an warning note. He also apparently likes Edito*Magica's "sneaky vandalism" term.

He left me warnings for removing his unnecessary and inappropriate remarks from my talk page , , , and . I removed the first three, and someone I do not know (I believe a vandal patroller) undid the last one and left him a warning. So he posted a message to their talk page making more incorrect statements about me and requesting I be banned. He has also now vandalized Misplaced Pages:Guide to administrator intervention against vandalism. For someone who claims to be a retired academic, he certainly isn't acting like it and seems to be on a full scale rant/assault. Collectonian (talk) 16:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm on this. I've asked Mike to desist, and have both parties directed to the article talk page for some informal mediation. (and now I'm off to do some real work for a while.) Tony Fox (arf!) 17:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

User talk: Wikidas and socketpuppets User talk: 79.97.0.103

• User talk:Wikidas and User:79.97.0.103 are vandalizing articles suck as I-Foundation and just being a nusance. Thanks. Any help would be appreciated, I don't know where to go from here - but I don't wont this to become a pattern. Any thoughts? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Update. After I gave warning Wikidas/79.97.0.103 is still attacking my talk page and I-Foundation. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
    • This has now expanded to the use of User talk:MBest-son. Ism schism (talk) 23:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Continued edit warring on Canada page

In a continued effort to avoid edit warring, I've submitted this follow up to yesterdays report on a similar incident.

Quizimodo continues to move tag on contested term "dominion" and "semi-autonomous" on Canada page; dominion has been used as an indication of "semi-autonomy"; the two words are linked. His rationale is that I haven't shown that there is a debate.

The debate is in fact a longstanding one in which we both have participated. See polls below for summary of editor opinions on talk page. The intent of the tag is to draw attention to that debate, and warn users that a good number (in fact a majority) of editors disagree strongly with reference to the word Dominion.

I think it is reasonable for a small tag to remain on the questionable wording until the dispute is resolved. A larger neutrality tag is not necessary as it would be overkill for what otherwise stands as an FA-Class aticle. --soulscanner (talk) 20:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

References: yesterday's report; Poll 1; Poll 2; Warning about deleting tags --soulscanner (talk) 20:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

In sum, this editor has not demonstrated the need for these tags, and has been adding them to make a point and be disruptive. There is no doubt that there has been debate in Misplaced Pages regarding Canada becoming a dominion upon Confederation in 1867, but the debate is an artificial one, with various reputable sources corroborating this fact and various editors seeking to deprecate this notion from the lead of the 'Canada' article or throughout the 'Dominion' article. Beginning in Sep., said editor exacerbated the situation by advocating for one position and then reneging, then engaging in tendentious editing and continuously contesting well-sourced information or insinuating that it is incorrect or imbalanced (representing a 'monarchist' position). Some of the polls cited above (instigated by said editor) are confused, and have generally yielded results not in said editor's favour. Said editor's behaviour also precipitated an edit was at 'Canada', and that article was locked. Relevant debates were allayed when said editor departed from the discussion -- the article was relatively stable regarding this point until this editor's return months later, after which a number of additional reports were filed (including an abortive request for arbitration), engagements and insinuations against G2bambino (whom he has referred to as my 'associate') and the 'Canada' and 'Dominion' article have been locked again.

Given this editor's continuous disruption, Soulscanner should be sanctioned, the 'Canada' and 'Dominion' articles should remain locked until disputes have been resolved, and or the former article's feature article status should be reviewed. In the very least, neutral administrators should monitor 'Canada' and 'Dominion' for potential disruption by the reporting editor (or anyone else). Thanks. Quizimodo (talk) 00:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Quizimodo acknowledges there is a debate. That is why there needs to be a neutrality tag to identify the disputed term. He believes tha any challenge to his views are "artificial" because he has contempt for anyone who disagrees with him. He has been warned against removing tags already here and here, so he is aware of the policy. He knows he should not remove them. --soulscanner (talk) 05:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This is logical fallacy: of course there has been discussion, which has been conflated and contorted by this editor and allies, hence it being an artificial one not reflected in the body of literature about the notion.

And I don't mind editors who disagree with me: it is those who continue to insinuate bias and irrational arguments despite clear citations indicating the opposite, and in accordance with Misplaced Pages policies and procedures, who are irksome. Sycophants, hypocrites, and those who are disingenuous in behaviour ever more so. I mean, do you dispute that the term is in -- and remains in -- the constitution? At its base, this is all that is required. If you stand back, answer that honestly and accept that, you will answer your own question -- to date, you have not, which is one reason why further discussion with you and selected compatriots seems futile. Quizimodo (talk) 14:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree fully that both articles should remain locked, until it's agreed to keep dispute on those respective discussion pages (agree not to 'edit war'). GoodDay (talk) 15:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked user Paul Hartal seems to be back again

Recently the name of indefinitely blocked user User:Paul Hartal (subject of Paul Hartal) has appeared (or been signed) on talk page comments posted by IP users Special:Contributions/66.131.182.80 and Special:Contributions/70.80.42.122. --Orlady (talk) 20:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Attacks by User:Urbanarcheology

For the past month or so there has been debate over photographs on the article Bethlehem Steel. Myself, User:NcSchu, and a few others have been involved, as well as the two users User:Urbanarcheology and User talk:Jbdesign2.

Urbanarcheology has repeatedly attacked myself and NcSchu and attempted to show his superiority in regards to to how the article should be edited, including telling editors that they should stick to other articles.

Urbanarcheology also claims that he has an assistant, who does work for him, namely User talk:Jbdesign2. This user has been equally abusive, and even uploads pictures that claim to be by him, but Urbanarcheology claims that he is merely uploading pictures that are really by Urbanarcheology, so it is difficult to tell if this is really another person or just a sock account.

Things had mostly calmed down recently and some discussion was progressing, but today I found this on my talk page. This same random IP was earlier claimed to be Urbanarcheology himself. and leading to .

This user, and his assistant, both seem to believe that they can attack those who oppose their opinions in an attempt to get what they want, even if it ignores Misplaced Pages rules. The359 (talk) 20:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked the ip for 31 hours, issued a level 2 npa warning to Jbdesign2 and left a message with Urbanarcheology which includes a civility warning. I hope that they get the message that respect for other editors comes before how good their contributions may be. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Issue with Lianga13 (talk · contribs)

There appears to be an issue regarding the Miss Tourism Queen International articles and the behaviour and possible COI of Lianga13 (talk · contribs). Angelo De La Paz (talk · contribs) appears strongly convinced that that user account is one of many others used by the same person, which appear to be vandalising articles. Angelo De La Paz needs a bit of a nudge towards figuring out WP policies (see his message here and this message on my talk page from a couple of days ago for a couple of examples) so I thought I'd bring this here and see what you thought. Basically I'm a neutral observer on this one... just trying to bring this to the right channels. PageantUpdater talk • contribs 20:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Problem with repeated incivility from IP user

There have been some problems with an IP user where the user's first edit mentions spoofing. The next edit tries to insinuate against another editor by implying they wrote something and questioning their motives. The next edit is an obvious personal attack. The next edit tries to call into question the editor and the motives of the editor instead of tackling the substance of the argument. Then again the user tries to direct an attack against another editor. I then placed a warning on the user's talk page. The user then insists on replacing edits (and many more) that have been reverted due to containing incivility and personal attacks. I have initially reverted the user's changes that violate AGF or contain personal attacks, however now because of the user's editing pattern I have my strong suspicions that this IP user is evading a ban for using sock puppets. Basically IP the user started editing on the same topic, binary prefixes, as the other two banned users and is using the same IP address range to edit from (IP address starting 217.87 which is the same German ISP). These can be seen in the last section "IPs to keep track of from" on this sock puppet history page. While this suspected sock puppet activity is related to this issue my main priority is for the IP user to stop making edits that attack other editors and to be civil. Fnagaton 21:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The IEC binary prefix issue on Talk:Binary_prefix can bring about lively debates. In this case I have to agree with Fnagaton that the IP user is just being obnoxious. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

After seeing the latest edits from the IP user I have to agree with this edit that this IP user is a sock puppet evading a block from User talk:NotSarenne. I've tried creating a sock puppet report but have been told I cannot edit the page due to a previous report being there for User talk:NotSarenne, so I'm a bit stuck. :) Fnagaton 11:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll help out now. Just looking over the report. Rudget. 12:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Although the IP user is using an ISP that hands out dynamic IPs so it can be difficult to track. Good luck! Fnagaton 12:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

After reviewing the contributions of the IP is has been blocked for 2 weeks, although as it is a daily interchangable IP, it might be best to keep a track of the pages it it likely to edit. I've also reviewed the contributions of CapnZapp, could it be possible s/he is a sock of someone? Rudget. 12:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to wade through what is quite a complex issue. I don't have access to the IP logs for CapnZapp so just going on the contributions thus far I don't see a sock puppet problem? I'll keep an eye out for other IP users from the same ISP (or newly created accounts) editing the same pages and topics that the IP user has been connected with. Fnagaton 12:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Twicemost leaving threats on talk pages

User:Twicemost has been going through various anime articles removing information about the series being aired in other countries, then leaving messages on the talk page saying the removed it because "we only care about the english dub" and that including such information violates the MOS. (which is a false idea). The real problem is, though, is that he has including in his message statements like "don't dare to revert this or you'll pay it with your life" (see and ) or that "you asked for it" . From his note here, he seems to be deliberately being disruptive to make a WP:POINT. I finally settled for leaving a warning on content removal for his latest edit, but not sure what else should/can be done, but I do feel administrators need to be aware of this. Leaving death threats will certainly scare off some other editors. Collectonian (talk) 22:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Twicemost (talk · contribs) has been blocked indefinitely by LessHeard vanU (talk · contribs). It's not entirely clear how seriously these threats were meant, but this is clearly a combative editor who was being disruptive. There do seem to be some earlier constructive edits, so I suppose it would be reasonable to consider shortening the block to a definite time frame if the threats are unreservedly retracted. MastCell  22:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see a week-long block and an explanation from the user. the_undertow 22:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I have indef blocked Twicemost for the threat. This has no place on Misplaced Pages. If it is retracted and a promise to abide by npa/harass is made then a revision of the tariff may be appropriate. Without any such undertaking I would oppose allowing the editor to resume contributing.LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Page moves by Dove1950

Dove1950 (talk · contribs) has spent today reverting half-a-dozen moves. All were submitted to WP:RM, and all of the discussions were closed move. In some cases he has gone so far as to cut and paste the article and the talk page to the title he prefers; in most of these cases, he is the only editor to prefer it. The guidelines he insisted on has also been changed.

Would someone explain to him the difference between Misplaced Pages:consensus and the liberum veto? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The moves reverted were these:

• Dutch gulden to Dutch guilder. Closed by The Evil Spartan after 8-2 !vote.
• Egyptian gineih to Egyptian pound. Closed by AjaxSmack, 5-1.
• Egyptian qirsh to Egyptian piastre. Closed by AjaxSmack, 3-1. Cut and paste.
• Lebanese lira to Lebanese pound. Closed by AjaxSmack, 3-1 and a comment preferring direct change of guidelines.

• I am moving these back. Quite apart from the debates at RM, WP:ENGLISH is clear that the most common English name is to be preferred. Black Kite 22:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Done. Since this is the second time this editor has done this, and he's been warned by an admin before, I have issued a final warning. Would be useful if a few other admins could watchlist these pages too. Black Kite 22:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Dove1950 has a rather long history of doing this sort of thing, for example, look at his moves at Renminbi: . This kind of behaviour needs to stop. I wonder if a conduct RfC might be in order sometime soon. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Part of the problem is a Wikiproject (Numistics) with a tiny number of participants that wrote a naming convention into their project page. This defies our basic process of hwo proposals turn into guidelines for basic stuff like naming conventions and it's in conflict with our base naming conventions. Now that they've written it, they think they can bulldoze it across the articles they think their project is responsible for. Dove1950 thinks he's doing the right thing because nobody has cut off this errant Wikiproject. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Well, actually, that's kind of been fixed now. The project's guidelines were recently changed to be more in line with our common names and English name guidelines, although Dove1950 opposed this change. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This can be marked as resolved. Dove1950 has been warned, and the most recent articles he tried to move have been move-protected (preferable to a block in this instance). Neıl ☎ 10:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection

Question:

The Paris Hilton article is in semi-protection.

Yet it was edited earlier today by "Abdulmatics", whose first-ever WP edit was 10 hours earlier. It seems based on this that semi-protection might be better called "just a tiny protection".

Am I missing something about the actual protection?

Thanks Wanderer57 (talk) 22:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• The account was created on February 1 (). It is the time from account creation that is taken into account, unfortunately making it easy for editors to create many accounts to slip past semi-protection. Black Kite 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Beat me to it Black Kite. Semi-protection protects against IP accounts and any account less than 4 days old. In this case, the account was nine days old. Metros (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
    • (ec)His account was created on 1 February, and he began editing on 7 February. However, it appears that his/her edits are disruptive, since they exclusively pertain to adding links to a pair of external websites about Paula Abdul. I will leave a linkspam warning. Horologium (talk) 22:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much. My knowledge grows. Wanderer57 (talk) 22:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Brian Reddyb (yet again)

• 86.42.206.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Illbreddy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Brian Reddyb again evading his community ban and engaging in disruptive editing. (For a full list of accounts and IP addresses used by this sock puppeteer, refer to his talk page.) IP 86.42.206.133 added "Brian Reddyb" back as a founding producer of Rednex despite this having been proved to be a hoax months ago. Same IP would later specify "Reddyb" as a female condom manufacturer instead of the (apparently) legitimate "Reddy" brand name. Illbreddy (note similarity of name to other socks) created the Reddyb page as a redirect to the female condom article; the page would be speedy deleted soon afterwards. Requesting indefinite block for Illbreddy, and a medium-term block for 86.42.206.133. CounterFX (talk) 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. MastCell  04:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. CounterFX (talk) 11:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Edito*MagicaJ

Just my day for ANIs I guess. User:Edito*Magica was brought to my attention by another editor, User:UpDown who knows I am well versed in creating episode lists and requested my assistance on List of Keeping Up Appearances episodes. Edito*MagicaJ kept changing for format of the list to one that removes the lead, and does not follow proper episode list format, going against the consensus for proper episode list formatting. (see good version versus his version). I reverted his edits, and tried to explain to him why his edits are incorrect. He refuses to listen, however, and appears to feel that he knows better than the main Misplaced Pages MOS, the TV project, and existing consensus and standards for episode lists (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Collectonian&diff=next&oldid=190484465 talk page discussions). UpDown also tried talking to him. I warned him that if continued his attempts to mess up the list, his edits would be considered vandalism, but he continues to revert, now calling the undoing of his edits to be acts of "sneaky vandalism." (his talk page with warnings that he has since blanked)

He is also removing content from various articles under the claim that information shouldn't be repeated in an article (examples: , ), despite it being appropriate information and my explaining to him that information can and should appear both in the lead and within the article proper.

At this point, its down to just undoing everything he is doing in these areas, and I'm hoping perhaps he will be more willing to listen to an admin since he is completely discounting the comments of other editors. I'm not entirely sure his edits are fully vandalism, but they are becoming very disruptive. Collectonian (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

As an update, he is now leaving false warnings on the pages of those undoing his actions , and is selectively canvassing relatively new, inexperienced editors to try to get them to agree with him in an attempt to "form a new consensus" . He is also continuing to edit war over his changes, blanking out content of infoboxes or outright reverting the undos of his bad formatting and calling it vandalism . He is showing that he has absolutely no desire to actual improve or work with the community, and is ignoring more notes from experienced editors telling him that his format idea is wrong. Collectonian (talk) 01:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Collectonian (talk) 06:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, the reason why I persist in making the alterations on the Keeping Up Appearances episode page is to improve it for other users. I have the good of the community in mind and for that reason I want to help improve Misplaced Pages. Secondly, it is true I contacted two other users for a second opinion, both are not inexperienced and both agree with my minor adjustments to the layout. Collectonian does not like the fact that other users agree with me, and to report me for making changes he does not agree with is folly. It is he who is reverting constructive alterations that I have made, which still follow the Misplaced Pages policy on the “lead”, which isn’t even compulsory to follow anyway. I will stand up to the likes of Collectonian; if he can get people banned for undoing his edits and get them banned for making improvements, then how unjust the Wiki system actually is. I would report him, but i don't thing it is a constructive method in solving deputes. Edito*Magica (talk) 11:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Have either of you considered stopping the accusations of vandalism and trying to follow dispute resolution? Someguy1221 (talk) 11:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Good faith or not, the policies have been show to EditoMagica, who ignores them. That is vandalism whether he thinks he's improving the pages or not. --UpDown (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I AGFed at first, and tried to explain in detail why his edits were wrong, but EditoMagica has made it clear that he doesn't care. He removes content from articles because he thinks it shouldn't be "repeated" in the infobox (despite being told the infobox is a summary, not a standalone) and he is refactoring episode lists articles to remove the lead in favor of another section of lists of statistics, despite again being told that it violates the MOS, the lead, and the consensus for episode list formatting. He is now taking these edits to other episode lists and of course he is continuing on the KUA list. He also completely blanked the talk page of Keeping Up Appearances despite his edit history showing he knows very well how to properly edit a talk page. Its hard to AGF when he has already said very plainly that he doesn't care about Misplaced Pages policies or guidelines and instead is calling the clean up of his mess "sneaky vandalism" and making other accusations against the editors keeping him from ruining the articles (such as the one he left on your talk page which is obviously not a good faith remark). He's been told numerous times this isn't just the opinion of UpDown and myself (who normally, by the way, tend to disagree), but of the entire Television project, Anime project, and BBC project, all of which deal with television episode lists, and of the FL process, which EditoMagica would realize if he would actually look at the MOS and featured episode lists as was suggested. This was brought here because he will NOT listen to other editors, hence the need for admin intervention as his edits are very disruptive. His claims of support are from one or two other editors who are also as inexperienced as he is, and he continues to claim this support of two trumps to consensus of the hundreds of members of those projects and of Misplaced Pages guidelines as a whole. He is also blatantly ignoring two other editors telling him he is wrong. Despite his accusations, I'm not asking for him to be banned, but corrected and only blocked if he continues to be disruptive. Collectonian (talk) 15:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This really is getting out of hand now; EditoMagica is being hugely disruptive and seems to think that his way of writing an episode list is the best way, and the fact one or two editors apparently back him up he thinks means he has "popular support". These things are backed up policy, guidelines and by looking at relevant FA. All these go against EditoMagica but he ignores this. In addition, he fails to understand that what is in the infobox is always repeated in the article proper (like the LEAD). If he won't listen to advise and guidelines he will need to be blocked for the sake of Misplaced Pages.--UpDown (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Borderline vandalism on Naveen Jain

Anonymous user 216.27.105.10 (talk · contribs) has been continually reverting the article Naveen Jain into a piece of Naveen Jain glorifying fluffwork, which is essentially unverifiable, and in the process he is removing well referenced material . Since he has been providing edit summaries, giving this the appearance of a content dispute, I wasn't sure this was trivial enough for AIV. And while the inclusion of the fluff-work I would certainly consider a content dispute, I still consider the removal of sourced information vandalism given his refusal to use the talk page (despite being reverted and messaged by three editors), and his use of essentially false edit summaries. It should also be noted, as can be seen on the talk page, that this article has had quite a history of being edited Naveen Jain and/or his employees, although the IP in question doesn't resolve to anything that would confirm such. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

See a history of beautification of this article at Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 21#Naveen Jain. Major newspapers including the Seattle Times and USA Today reported that Jain left the board of InfoSpace under a cloud in December, 2002, amid charges that investors were deceived about the health of the company. This is the information that 216.27.105.10 (talk · contribs) keeps trying to remove from the article. EdJohnston (talk) 01:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of cultural impact sections

I've had a problem with editor User:DJH47, and I'd like some clarification. On the page for Rock Lobster, I had readded a section detailing a reference to the song on Family Guy. After some discussion on the edit page , it stood. User:DJH47 then deleted it, saying it was not notable.

After I pointed out to him several other articles of note that contained cultural references sections, he went through and deleted every one of those sections without any discussion. He has since gone on to redelete every editors attempt to readd the section, without explanation on the talk page.

I don't want to enter into an edit war with this editor, much less one that stretches across multiple pages, so I've tried to engage him in a discussion on his page User talk:DJH47 and also the Talk:The Butterfly Effect page. He is deadset against the validity of sections detailing cultural impact or references, and doesn't seem to want to discuss it before deleting them.

By my understanding and experience of watching and editing wikipedia pages, the general consensus is that these cultural reference sections are approved. Personally, I enjoy them if they're edited well. In my opinion, references in other works help to show the notability of the quoted work.

Anyway, my opinion doesn't matter much in this, I'm only here to ask about consensus on these sections. Am I out of line for asking for discussion before deletion on something that's common on wikipedia pages dealing with songs/movies/tv shows?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as I certainly don't want to edit war. I'd like to make sure I understand the current consensus. Thanks. Snowfire51 (talk) 00:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, there has been alot of discussion over the years regarding cultural significance/crosscultural references etc. with folks lining up on both sides. The surest way to avoid rather messy edit wars from time to time is getting 3rd party references. eg. some book, encyclopedia or journal citing the relevance. I have not seen the diffs yet. If you have any references and referenced material is being deleted then that is more difficult for him to defend. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Generally these sections are quite frowned upon - usually almost all of these pop-culture references are not relevant to discussion of that topic, though they might be relevant in the article of the connecting subject. See Misplaced Pages:Handling trivia#Connective trivia and Misplaced Pages:Relevance of content. I'd have to agree with the removals in the articles you cited above, and would prune or remove them if I came across them; they are all rather unwieldy and off-topic, and leave the articles less focused. krimpet✽ 00:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there a Family Guy wiki? I am baffled by the astonishing number of citations I see to this series here on Misplaced Pages; it (along with The Simpsons and South Park seems to be referenced everywhere, and I suspect that those three series are the heart of every trivia section on this project. I'd love to see some sort of pop-culture wiki where all of the trivia content could be transwikied and be done with it. Horologium (talk) 00:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Snowfire, this is the tip of a larger iceberg, many of the themes can be seen here. I think some can definitely be referenced and written better. Some on quick scanning are clearly notable while others are less so. Thus the need for some references or commentary/3rd party sourcing. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Horologium, I have proposed the same thing in the past. I think it's the only viable long-term solution to the inclusionist/deletionist wars regarding popular culture articles. *** Crotalus *** 02:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that fans of shows whose stock in trade is making pop-culture references love their shows so much that they want to add every joke to every applicable article. It's almost an extension of the 'plot summary' problem seen on many TV Episdoe articles. ThuranX (talk) 03:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur with ThuranX, and I'd like to add that the connections themselves would be unverifiable from a historical perspective. Many connections make sense now to quite a few editors but do not necessarily support the historical perspective of an article of the topic. Every kind of media will be culturally attuned to the contemporary environment, which is constantly changing. The uncited connections of popular culture references won't make sense to readers 50 years from now since they cannot dwell in and thus comprehend the environment that entitles current viewers and readers to "get" the references. Ultimately, the most important references will be addressed by secondary sources, not necessarily in the same decade as the media. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 05:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Not to be argumentative, but if I say "Vitameatavegamin", or "a rilly big sheeeeewwww," a substantial group knows what I'm referring to, even fifty years later. I can't speak for "South Park", but I'm reasonably certain that "Family Guy" will be a similarly-remembered show, and I'll be shocked if "The Simpsons" isn't. (Okay, actually in 50 years there's a more-than-reasonable chance I won't be around to BE shocked, but I trust you take my point.) Gladys J Cortez 16:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Most people here have no idea about "A rilly big sheeeeewwww", and even the name Ed Sullivan doesn't ring a bell for many of them. (I'm almost 40, and I don't remember the sheeeeewwww myself.) Vitameatavegamin is probably a lot more widely known, because of the widespread reruns of I Love Lucy. While I think The Simpsons and South Park will be remembered 50 years from now (both pushed the envelope in ways that Family Guy never did), I doubt that FG will have the same impact, and its densely packed current pop-culture references will date it badly. Just my own thoughts; YMMV. Horologium (talk) 16:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Is that the sort of judgments we should be making, or should we be recording popular culture as it becomes notable, whatever we think of the actual merits? DGG (talk) 18:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

User:RDOlivaw, User:Unprovoked and User:DrEightyEight‎

Blocks for sockpuppetry have been placed on RDOlivaw (talk · contribs), Unprovoked (talk · contribs) and DrEightyEight‎ (talk · contribs) by User:LaraLove on the basis of a checkuser run by User:Thatcher and User:Deskana. See User talk:RDOlivaw for details including concern that a University proxy in Grenoble and the network of Nottingham University may have been indefblocked. No details seem to have been made public about the alleged disruption arousing suspicion. .. dave souza, talk 00:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

As a very old commercial for Wendy's noted, "show me the beef". We seem to be going round in circles in our quest for evidence. •Jim62sch• 00:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Autoblocking the uni proxy is a very rookie mistake, and at the very least that needs to be cleaned up. "For the admin who reviews this, please first talk to User:Thatcher or User:Deskana. Checkuser evidence shows that this user and user User:DrEightyEight are connected to the account User:Unprovoked and on February 1, 2008 they edited from the same IP address, alternating, in a matter of minutes which puts them on the same computer. Lara❤Love 18:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)" seems like a some very weak evidence to block first and ask questions later. Blocking is a last resort. -- Ned Scott 03:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Ned, nice to see you again. Rookie? I went on the results and recommendations of a bureaucrat/checkuser and another checkuser. Also, the underlying IP is not blocked, according to said 'crat. So have a seat. Checkusers and 'crats have the trust of the community, so considering two of them have stated that the evidence links them, everyone needs to move along. It's not a conspiracy, a Albion moonlight refers to it. It's not shady or weak. It's actually (Thatcher or Deskana correct me if I misinterpreted) pretty strong evidence. So as much as I like a nice puddle of spewed bad faith on my talk page and an ANI on my action without anyone notifying me of it, I've got work to do. Lara❤Love 04:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The number of times checkusers and checkuser results have resulted in blocking of non-socks is great enough that one would be a fool to simply "move along". User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson, anyone? I really need to start keeping a list. And Lara, please stop taking this so personally. Look around at the comments aimed at other admins, they're pretty cold at times too, but you don't see them freaking out every time someone objects to a decision they made. -- Ned Scott 04:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me spell it out, we have more than one user using a uni proxy, and again haven't even stopped to consider that they might know each other. -- Ned Scott 04:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't play that "don't take it personal" card. This is not like the last situation you popped your head into regarding me. I'm not taking this personal. I'm pointing out that you're challenging the block of socks confirmed by two checkusers based on failure to do your research. RDO already stated he doesn't know Dr88. Yet, they edited from the same computer and the same IP alternating within minutes of each other.

> * 23:08, 1 February 2008 (DrEightyEight)

> * 23:06, 1 February 2008 (RDOlivaw)

> * 23:01, 1 February 2008 (DrEightyEight)

Is that how dynamic IPs work? Lara❤Love 05:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I have over 30 active comments on WP:ANI right now, most involving blocking discussions related to sock puppet accusations, and you believe I'm going after you? WTF? You being the blocking admin makes little difference. I'm challenging a block that where normal users don't have access to the evidence, and are asking for a little more explanation than "trust the holy checkuser results". They might be socks, and I'm certainly not asserting they're not, but I am well within my right to question something like this. -- Ned Scott 05:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Ned, frankly I know more than you, and without discussing the details I can only say that RDOlivaw's unblock request bears only a passing resemblance to the truth. I would strongly suggest that these accounts not be unblocked, unless it is to give this user a second chance, and that any admins moved to unblock should first contact Arbcom, who can review my findings in confidence. Thatcher 05:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• I don't question that you know more about this than me, and I have a lot of respect for you. But given past incidences I hope you can understand why we might question stuff like this. -- Ned Scott 05:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• As has been shown at User talk:DrEightyEight there's a concern that the edits concerned were made from a Static IP address (Freebox) where the modem has the static IP, and multiple computers can use the modem and will show the same IP. That could perhaps explain the sequence LaraLove shows above. DrEightyEight had been indefblocked with autoblock enabled, so I've unblocked and reblocked with the autoblock removed, in case that was also blocking a university network. User:Unprovoked has never been blocked, and I don't know if there are any other accounts blocked in this connection which could have the same issue. Presumably the DrEightyEight whois relates to Grenoble university, however an IP which RDOlivaw apparently used more recently when logged out showed as a Nottingham University network on whois. I've requested clarification of the alleged disruption but have yet to be shown any diffs or any indication other than the claim that "they have supported one another in various discussions regarding article content and such". Concerns have been raised in the past about indefblocking newbies, and care is needed. . . . dave souza, talk 09:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me clear up a couple of things. First, LaraLove did not know that RDOlivaw was editing from a proxy at Univ Nottingham, because I didn't tell her--IPs are rarely disclosed, except when absolutely necessary or when the editor has given it away himself. I didn't check for other editors because at the time I ran the check, RDOlivaw had only 3 edits on this IP and they were not germane to the issue of sockpuppetry. If I had checked, I would have seen a lot of good users and I would have told her to disable the autoblock. But I didn't. Second, RDOlivaw has himself stated that he edits through a "University proxy." and from wi-fi. There is nothing in the whois or rdns information for his Grenoble IP address to indicate that it is a proxy and he is the only editor on that IP. But for the one edit that gives him away, he has no logged-in edits from any other location such as wi-fi hot spots. Finally, it is clear to me that these two accounts were carefully created to give the appearance of being different individuals. RDOlivaw edits exclusively from University during work hours Monday-Friday, and DrEightyEight edits exclusively from a residential IP (probably DSL) on nights and weekends. Except for one mistake, the best I would ordinarily be able to say is possible based on similar geolocation. I am normally hesitant to describe precisely what that mistake was, to avoid making this person a smarter sockpuppeteer next time, but Deskana has already given away the basics on user talk:RDOlivaw. DrEightyEight edits exclusively from a single residential IP address, probably DSL. There are no edits from other users suggesting this might be a wi-fi hotspot or LAN. This series of edits

> * 23:08, 1 February 2008 (DrEightyEight)

> * 23:06, 1 February 2008 (RDOlivaw)

> * 23:01, 1 February 2008 (DrEightyEight)

were all made from DrEightyEight's residential IP address. These two editors have stated they do not know each other, the only possible explanation is that DrEightyEight is running an unsecured wi-fi hotspot that no one has every used except himself, but for one day when RDOlivaw was driving home from work and was struck by a sudden need to protest his being added to the list of editors under probation and by coincidence was driving past DrEightyEight's apartment and found his hotspot for a single edit. Thatcher 13:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The commonality of the subject of these edits should also be noted.

RDOlivaw (23:06): "Hi. I'd like to know why you've pinged me for the Homeopathy probation."

DrEightyEight (23:08): "I'm obviously already aware of this. Why have you added me to the list?" <-- Speaking of Homeopathy probation. Lara❤Love 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yet, they edited from the same computer and the same IP alternating within minutes of each other. - the _lack_ of this rapid-fire alternation on the same IP address was used as evidence _against_ Jeffrey O Gustafson; and your claim that it was "the same computer" is absolutely unsupported as an independent claim vs merely being the same IP address. —Random832 16:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not unsupported at all. The checkuser tool gives information on the computers used to make edits. The fact that they edited from the same private residential IP to ask the same question within minutes of each other, on the same kind of machine... that's not suspicious to you? When that is their *only* overlap? You need to think like a sockpuppeteer to understand them. --Deskana (talk) 16:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The checkuser tool does not and cannot make evaluations about how much equipment is operating at an IP address (and i'm not aware that it returns browser, user agent etc data, even though it would be technically possible for it or another tool to do so - which would be necessary to even say "the same kind of machine") - that was all that I was saying. I didn't mean to be questioning the validity of the sockpuppetry claim in general, it's just that saying "from the same computer and the same IP" makes the claim sound stronger without adding more substance. —Random832 17:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Same user agent, whatever. RDOlivaw has just one overlapping edit, his "fingerprint," on a static residential DSL IP used exclusively by DrEightyEight. Otherwise RDOlivaw edits exclusively from a college during working hours and DrEightyEight edits exclusively from his residence during non-working hours and weekends. I guess they are roommates, and RDOlivaw has never, in the last month, had an urge to make more than a single edit outside of working hours. Thatcher 18:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Dave souza, thank you for making me aware of this thread. Simultaneous to Thatcher looking at these users, Deskana forwarded the issue to the ArbCom mailing list. Several current and former arbitrators with CU looked at the evidence and felt that that there was abusive use of multiple accounts through either socking or meat puppets. I do not think that we have made a mistake here but as always are glad to answer questions. There are restrictions on what is ordinarily disclosed to adhere to the Privacy policy and keep sockmasters from learning how to beat the system. This may make our decision seems weaker than it actually is. FloNight♥♥♥ 18:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

NYScholar block overturned

NYScholar edits at four times the rate of most of us, but has a Wikibreak notice permanently on his user page, and a talk page header that basically says "Please don't put any messages on my talk page; I'm too busy to respond". If anyone posts on his talk page, even for matters that really do require a considered response, such as asking him to prove or withdraw a false accusation of personal attacks, he accuses the poster of harassing or upsetting him by ignoring his request not to message him, and then he archives the discussion, i.e. deletes it from his talk page, copying it into an archive which others are not permitted to edit. If anyone pulls the thread back onto this talk page to continue the discussion, the cycle repeats - accusations of harassment, followed by an immediate archive.

Sarah put his modus operandi like this:

"you make false accusations and then archive quickly before your victim has an opportunity to respond, forcing them to leave it unchallenged in your archive so it looks to anyone not aware of the truth that it's true, or your victim restores the thread and responds, only to be hammered with more false accusations and lies.... "

Yesterday I warned NYScholar that his management of his talk page was disruptive, and asked him to stop archiving active threads. A number of other administrators chimed in with support. NYScholar subsequently archived that very thread three times. I therefore applied a 24 hour block, expressing the hope that this would convince him to find a method of managing his talk page that is in line with community expectations.

In my absence, Sandstein overturned the blocked, characterising my block as "you blocked this user for archiving or deleting content on his talk page", claiming that NYScholar's behaviour is in line with WP:UP, and asserting that my block was punitive because it did not prevent NYScholar from editing his talk page.

I cannot understand how Sandstein cannot see that this behaviour is disruptive. I cannot see how s/he can imagine that WP:UP endorses this kind of behaviour. And I don't see how s/he manages to function effectively with such a narrow, technical interpretation of preventative - in my view the whole point of punitive v preventative is that blocks should be applied not when a user has done wrong, but when they are likely to continue doing so. There is no requirement that the block must directly technically prevent the action being censured, else we would never again bother to block for block evasion, sockpuppetteering, or anything at all that happens on a user's own talk page, no matter how awful.

All in all, I find Sandstein's rationale for unblocking to be so bizarre that I don't think we can work it out between us. That is not to criticise Sandstein, who is operating in good faith according to his/her own understanding of policy. But we seem to be so far removed in our respective approaches that there can be no meeting of the minds. I would like to hear some outside opinion on the correctness of my block and Sandstein's unblock.

Hesperian 00:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think NYScholar should stay blocked, preferably indefinitely. He is consistently rude and tendentious, and has in at least one case forced a false and unnecessary license tag onto an image because of his own inaccurate interpretation of the statements of third parties. Misplaced Pages would be better off without him. *** Crotalus *** 00:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hesperian, on what basis did you block? You used "disruption" as the reason. Please provide diffs for that disruption. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, in this as in most cases, disruption is a pattern of editing that is difficult to capture in a few diffs; I probably can't do much better than Crotalus below, although I could provide a hell of a lot more such diffs. What Crotalus' diffs are missing is context: If someone accused you of making a personal attack, and you asked them to prove or withdraw that accusation, how would you feel if they simply deleted it unreplied, then accused you of harassing them by ignoring their request that people not post on their talk page? That's what happened to Moondyne. If you were trying to hold a serious discussion with someone, and they kept replying with false accusations, then immediately archiving, so that the discussion ended with their false accusations ensconsed in an archive that is not supposed to be edited, how would you feel? And if you decided to bring that discussion back to the talk page to respond to said false accusations, only to be accused of disruption and harassment for doing so, how would you feel? That's what happened to Sarah. And if that user deleted that discussion within a couple of minutes of it being brought back, over and over again, how would you feel? That's what has happened to everyone who has tried to engage this user over the last two day. The warning I gave was "I'm now giving you a formal warning that your management of this talk page is disruptive, because it is likely to cause anger and frustration amongst your collaborators." And that is exactly what has happened; that page shows reams and reams of discussion from angry, frustrated people, who want a redress that NYScholar is denying them through what amounts to a low down dirty trick. If this is not disruptive, I'll eat my hat. Hesperian 01:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocks are not punitive, but preventative. A user's talk page can be edited by a blocked user, so blocking NYScholar will be punitive as it does not prevent him from doing what he was doing before. Encourage the user to follow WP:DR, or, if the behavior iwarrants it, start a user WP:RFC, so that the community can give him feedback. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've already gone through this punitive-preventative issue above; didn't you read it? You don't seem to be addressing what I said about it. Hesperian 01:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

See , , and for some examples I found in the past day or so. He simply refuses to discuss issues with other contributors and instead accuses them of disruption, using this as an excuse to "archive" (delete) comments from his talk page. Ability to work in a collaborative environment is necessary for Misplaced Pages editors, and this one gets a F- on that score based on his repeated actions. *** Crotalus *** 01:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

See also his block log which contains an extensive record of misbehavior including repeat 3RR blocks, legal threats, and trolling. *** Crotalus *** 01:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

He should have been blocked long ago for disruption on Image:Nobel medal dsc06171.jpg and related pages. I've fixed the license information on that image, and I would appreciate if an administrator could go and undelete the old, high-resolution version, since it meets Misplaced Pages standards. *** Crotalus *** 01:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Crotalus, I read the diffs, and I do not think that you can block an editor on that basis. I support the unblock. Invite the user to pursue WP:DR instead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not an administrator and didn't block him. But I think he should remain blocked because his presence is a net detriment to Misplaced Pages. *** Crotalus *** 01:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I would have to agree with Sarah's summary of things, with an emphasis on false accusations. Any attempt to correct the record is promptly deleted. One example - NYScholar strikes through a comment I made, and when I point out that such actions are expressly verboten per WP:TALK, s/he deletes both the original comments and my reply, leaving instead a post claiming that s/he had to delete it because I reverted his/her strikeout. Patently false. S/he also claims to know my motivations, as when s/he claims that I am only doing so to "upset" him/her. Quite frankly, I find this user very difficult to work with; s/he insists that other editors should read his/her "N.B." to understand his/her editing summaries, user had made claims that using citation templates introduces "vast problems," and continually refers to the opinions and edits of others as "ridiculous." Add to this the tendency to make huge numbers of small edits (which several editors have likened to not useing the "show preview" button), and it becomes almost impossible to work collaboratively with NYScholar. Pairadox (talk) 01:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

As with any privilege, when abused, it needs to be curtailed. If NYScholar is going to abuse the privilege of archiving talkpage comments, then he needs to be placed on some kind of probation in that regards. --B (talk) 01:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree - a probation of some form should be the minimum expectation here. While policy allows archiving of talk pages, doing so mid-discussion as a move to end scrutiny of one's actions is downright disruptive. Furthermore, on principle, I would have declined the unblock on the basis that the unblock request itself contained a personal attack. Orderinchaos 01:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with OIC and Hesperian about the talk page disruption and I was particularly disappointed to see the block unilaterally overturned on a page which contains numerous attacks against multiple users, false accusations, and incredibly disruptive userspace practices, without so much as a warning or obtaining an undertaking to cease the attacks. UP is a guideline that has limits and says so. If people's userspace practices are disruptive and it gets in the way of the project (as is most certainly the case here) then they need to stop or be stopped. Sarah 03:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

NYS is possibly the most frustrating editor I've come across here. His/her talk page (history, don't bother just reading the current content or the selectively updated archives) and block log is littered with warnings from exasperated admins and non-admins. And thats not counting the still unresolved false accusations of personal attack against Sarah and myself. In this context I was amazed that a nominal 24 hour block was hastily overturned by Sandstein without any of the other admins currently communicating with NYS (Hesperian, Sarah and myself) having time to respond. Why the rush? A better course of action would have left the block in place rather than giving the benefit of the doubt to a known disruptive user at least until until an involved admin could comment. —Moondyne 01:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• So, without any comment on the block itself, it appears that Sandstein overturned a block without any attempt to contact the blocking admin? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 02:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, an attempt was made here. —Travis 02:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that Sandstein didn't contact the blocking admin. —Moondyne 02:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Contacted in the most perfunctory manner - the sensible action to take would have been to communicate with the blocking admin. As it turned out, he would only have had to wait a further 3 or 4 hours, and none of this drama would have been necessary. Orderinchaos 03:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Another bad block, and another admin that needs to review our blocking policy. While admins are supposed to use their good judgement in situations, they are not to replace policy with that judgement. -- Ned Scott 02:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

And IAR doesn't cover "well, we don't like this user, so we'll look the other way". -- Ned Scott 02:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you care to explain why you think it's a bad block? Pairadox (talk) 02:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean the part where a user was blocked for rapidly archiving their talk page? -- Ned Scott 03:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It is easy to make something look wrong if you simplify it until it is. Hesperian 03:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

And your IAR comment too please? Who was that addressed to? Who's trying to invoke IAR here? Hesperian 03:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

(to Hersperian) No one, it was a bit of a preemptive comment. -- Ned Scott 03:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, it seems we agree on one thing - IAR is the most over-invoked policy on Misplaced Pages... unless it be second after POINT. Hesperian 03:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

But Ned, you're wrong if you think this will be cleared up by me reviewing the blocking policy. I believe that the block was proper, both in policy and common sense terms. I opened this thread to get some feedback, and your feedback is welcome. But it isn't constructive unless you take the time to explain why you think this was a bad block. Hesperian 03:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I have just undone the "archiving" of this thread by User:Jossi. Way out of line shutting down an active discussion that you're involved in and want to have stopped. Orderinchaos 03:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to figure out WHY this had been archived. A bad archiving, and a bad unblock. Archiving all talk page activity and continuing with bad practices isn't the purpose of the 'if they delete it, they saw it' rule of thumb for Talk pages. IF you're approached about stuff repeatedly, and always make a show of ignoring it, then you need to stop editing here till you CAN work with others. ThuranX (talk) 03:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Precisely. This is exactly my belief, too, ThuranX. Sarah 08:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment by the unblocking admin: I acknowledge that I should have been more diligent in contacting Hesperian, and I apologise that I did not wait longer for a reply by him or her before unblocking. As to the merits of the block I've presented my point of view on my talk page, at User talk:Sandstein#NYScholar. To summarise, I fail to understand how someone can be blocked merely for the act of deleting or archiving content on their talk page, a practice that – although it may be impolite – is explicitly allowed by WP:UP. This is not to say NYScholar could or should not have been blocked for any other misconduct she or he may have been guilty of, just that a block merely for deleting things on one's own talk page is inappropriate. Sandstein (talk) 05:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

NYScholar makes a baseless personal attack against Moondyne. Moondyne posts a message asking him to prove it or withdraw it. NYScholar blanks the request unreplied two minutes later. You may have your own opinion on whether or not this is appropriate, and you may have your own opinion on whether or not the modus operandi of doing this to virtually every post, irrespective of the state of the discussion, constitutes disruption. But to assert that WP:UP affords NYScholar carte blanche to do what he is doing is an insult to the good people who wrote that page. Hesperian 06:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

But WP:UP does allow this. A great number of times people have pointed out that a user's talk page is for messages to that user, not from that user. There's nothing stopping anyone from talking to him. If they want to leave the discussion open the can make a copy of it on their own talk page. -- Ned Scott 06:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Part of where this came from appears to be located in the following, and after reading it, I am now even more convinced that a bad call was made here. This should explain why such behaviour is disruptive. I believe Sandstein should have read this and taken it into account before making such a controversial decision. Quoted in full below from NYScholar's talk page. Orderinchaos 05:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I must say that I've been very concerned about NYScholar's use of this page for a couple of months now and have kept his/her page on my watchlist as a result. I had to contact NYScholar because the foundation was contacted by the brother of a man NYScholar claimed had died but in reality was still alive. The brother hadn't had recent contact and was distressed to learn of his brother's "death" via a google search of his name. He wished to talk to NYScholar to find out the details of his brother's "death". Only NYScholar declined email contact saying s/he prefers all contact to be on site (fair enough, I suppose). This forced the brother to register for an account specifically to come to this page to talk to NYScholar but a couple of hours after responding, NYScholar archived his/her talk page. It seemed rather rude to me that NYScholar would claim a man had died, causing his family great distress only to immediately archive the thead. Do you think someone who has never used Misplaced Pages before and who came here to address such a matter would have seen NYScholar's reply in the couple of hours it was posted? Would he have known where to find the archived reply or would he have thought his message had simply been deleted without response and then given up in disgust? Makes you wonder what kind of message people unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages must get. I had to apologise to the poor man several times. Sarah 13:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC) (reposted in AN/I by Orderinchaos 05:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC))

But NYScholar responded to this person. He apologized and explained himself. NY didn't anticipate that the guy might not see his message, and that is all. That is certainly not a blockable offense. -- Ned Scott 06:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

He even left the guy a note on his talk page, User talk:Aachtert. Clearly NYScholar wasn't trying to be disruptive. -- Ned Scott 06:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

(e.c.) This post was on NYscholar's lengthy talk page at the time of his unblock request, but it was not cited in his block reason, and for that reason I did not acquaint myself with it specifically. If this account is true, NYscholar may have it made rather difficult to communicate with the brother, but it seems from this account that he did respond to him. If this episode was the basis for the block at issue, not just NYscholar's practice of deleting talk page threads in general, the blocking admin should have said so and should have cited this (and possibly other) specific incivilities. That's not to say the block would have been justified then either, but at least it might have been possible to evaluate it more thoroughly. Sandstein (talk) 06:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The Achtert issue is a red herring and really has nothing to do with the block that I'm aware of. I only raised it when I did to explain the point that I personally became concerned with the way NYScholar was conducting the page with hyperediting and controversial claims and false allegations about people followed by rapid archiving, effectively preventing them from responding. I am very concerned and upset by his personal attacks, and utterly false claims and accusations. This is just exacerbated by the fact that he rapidly archives so that the 'victim' can not respond. They can't edit the archive where the claims are and if they attempt to repost on his talk page, he accuses them of harassment and of causing him upset etc etc. His talk page practices are massively disruptive. Also, I might add that I never claimed that NYScholar didn't respond to Mr Achtert...so if y'all are getting that idea you're barking up the wrong tree. What I have claimed is his talk page practices exacerbated that very unfortunate situation and it did. Sarah 08:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It's funny how things change. A little while ago the prevailing attitude was that users might be given a little latitude in how they manage their user and talk pages, but ultimately those pages belong to the project and were subject to the various rules, expectations and even vagaries of the community. Perhaps this mode of thinking was a product of the userbox wars. I must have nodded off for a moment, because the sudden change of attitude has come as a surprise. All of a sudden a man's talk page is his castle, and he can do whatever he damn well likes on it, no matter how outrageous, no matter how it pisses people off, no matter how disruptive. I suppose this change is a backlash against the ridiculous warring over the removal of warning messages. This had become a real problem, and I'm glad it has been resolved. But methinks the pendulum has now swung way too far. Hesperian 10:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

To all admins closing AfDs created on 10 Feb and 11 Feb

If you are closing an AfD which was created on 10 February or 11 February, you will see a "(delete)" link. Please do not click on it! Due to my egregrous screw-up it will delete the AfD page or whatever page you viewed the AfD from. I have just fixed the mistake (passed wrong parameter to the delete link). AfDs created on 12 February onwards will not have this problem. Pegasus «C¦T» 01:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Would this be all AfDs for 11 Feb, or just the ones in the first hour or so before the error was caught (per your timestamp above)? Thanks for the heads up. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 13:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, those AfDs created after the timestamp of my previous comment will be okay (I fixed the template a few minutes before that.) But I'm mentioning dates only, to be on the safe side. Pegasus «C¦T» 17:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Craigtalbert blocked due to vandalism on Justine Ezarik

I have just blocked User:Craigtalbert for one month due to perceived repeated vandalism to Justine Ezarik's article. Over the past few months, a number of anonymous IPs have repeatedly tried to add/change Ezarik's signature phrase to "Deposit me in your spank bank", while masking them with deceptive edit summaries, (the following diffs are a sample of the disruptive edits: ). Craig was the first registered user to vandalize the article in this fashion, which gives me strong reason to believe that he is the anon-editor who has been disrupting the article for a while. Based on this user's edit history, he is somewhat of an established user who has been involved in a number of editing disputes, which is the reason I'm bringing this up to AIV. Most of the anon edits come from the Colorado area (a state Craig claims to be from), which makes me feel that the editor is one and the same. If possible, I would like to have another editor take a look at this situation, possibly a checkuser. --w 01:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a note, that all the IPs in question (or nearly all) were from one university. Note sure if this would be valid for RFCU, just throwing it out for discussion. For BLP reasons this article probably needs it's Semi-protection reset. Lawrence § t/e 03:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This would be better listed at WP:SUSPSOCK. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a fairly clear cut case. The IPs all resolve to University of Colorado at Boulder, and Craigtalbert's userpage states that he is a student at that university. It also says he is a resident of Denver, Colorado (~20 miles from Boulder). No need for SSP reports for such a case. Endorse block - auburnpilot talk 03:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment Unrelated to Justine Ezarik, I perceive issues with article ownership that have led to edit disputes and personal attacks.
I had not been aware of Craigtalbert until about 25 hours ago, but for no reason that I could discern, our interactions in our brief acquaintance were threatening to erupt into a full-scale edit war. Fourteen of Special:Contributions/Craigtalbert Craigtalbert's last 17 edits after vandalizing Justine Ezarik were directly related to me, including reverting changes I had made to articles that he has had an interest in, responding to my questions and comments on talk pages, and accusing me of being a troll. Since the majority of his edits seemed to be thoughtful and responsible, I was taken aback by the vehemence of his disagreements with my edits. (It was clear that he vehemently disagreed with me, but his reasoning was not communicated nearly as effectively as his vehemence.) I was surprised to see that he had been blocked, and that the block had nothing to do with me.
In retrospect, I guess that I must have triggered something several days ago, when I saw the AfD for Schizophrenics Anonymous, reviewed the article and its topic, and commented that I thought it should be kept. As it happens, this is an article that he had earlier proposed for speedy deletion. Subsequently, by editing Schizophrenics Anonymous and a couple of related articles, I seem to have wandered deep into territory that he considered his own.
I hope that the block helps him cool off and return here with a more cooperative attitude. --Orlady (talk) 04:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The consensus appears to support the block, but the original reason for the block was because of the vandalism. Other issues have come up as well. Should they be taken into consideration. Also, the reason I have blocked for a month is because Craig tried to justify his vandalism because of Ezarik's "attention whoring" , which in my view showed a complete disregard to Misplaced Pages:LIVING. Is the length of the block proper? --w 07:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the 1 month block length given the user's recent history. If he wouldn't have been a productive editor before, indef may have been more appropriate, but he seems to have contributed well in the past. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 17:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Unblocks needed

Per #Summary of account activity, the following users have been checked by checkuser:

• OrionClemens (talk · contribs) and Athoughtforyou (talk · contribs) have requested to be unblocked, but had their reviews denied before the checkuser results were listed

• Academic38 (talk · contribs) and Slintfan (talk · contribs) indicates they wants to be unblocked, but have not used the unblock template.

• Drstones (talk · contribs) should be unblocked as well, but hasn't requested it due to the bad impression this situation has left on him.

-- Ned Scott 03:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Done all - can you post the relevant apologies/unblock notices, I need to get back to work. Viridae 03:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I shall do that. -- Ned Scott 03:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, Academic2007 (talk · contribs) was listed as "likely". The other account has been unblocked, so it would make sense that this one would be unblocked as well. -- Ned Scott 03:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Unblocked. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

71.202.242.152 and Talk:Warrior (wrestler)

Someone really should have a talk with this IP. For 3 days now he's been removing others comments on this article talk page. He's been warned, warned, warned, reverted, reverted, reverted but continues. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 05:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for disruption for 31 hours. If he does it again, let us know again, and he will be blocked again, for longer next time. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the block, here he/she entirely re wrote another IP's coment.--Hu12 (talk) 05:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, looking at the text of the comment he replaced {Some mention should be made of the fact that Mr. Atwater currently maintains a residence in the lowest circle of hell, right next to the Devil himself.) I could see that as unhelpful to editing the article, POV and needlessly inflamatory. If you hadn't reverted him, I'd be tempted to remove it myself. Pairadox (talk) 06:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked editor Paul Hartal evading block

Paul Hartal was blocked quite a while ago for making legal threats and other disruptions. Apparently he is back as an anonymous IP editor (currently 66.131.182.80. Please reblock. Thanks! --74.128.171.150 (talk) 06:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit by User:BQZip01

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

There has been some heated discussion on some issues, but I'm stopping here. This edit is going too far. Prefacing the comment with "an example for dramatic effect" means nothing, those words have no place here. Can someone step in to cool things down a whole lot? Franamax (talk) 06:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: I am part of the discussion on the page in question - though opinions differ as to whether I am "involved" in the issue. There is actually something of a meta-meta argument over that very issue.

I really don't see what BQ was trying to prove with that example, but I don't see that it violates any rules either.

Actually, it was made in reply to a post by Franamax which said, "...Once you started that page on-wiki, didn't AGF pretty much go out the window?..." I think that may have been a violation of WP:AGF on the part of Franamax. Franamax questioned whether I was acting in good faith just slightly up the page.

Franamax has offered to mediate this dispute, but I am not certain he is coming at this from a neutral perspective.

In any event, there is disagreement occurring at that page, but I see no reason for a WP:ANI post or any administrative action.

Additional feedback on the RFC itself is certainly welcome. Johntex\ 06:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

(e/c with closure) Johntex, thank you for letting me know about this (I assume Fran not mentioning this was an oversight; no malice thought of). This particular edit was designed to illustrate a point (no disruption was intended, so WP:POINT does not apply): to show that actions before/during an RfC are certainly applicable to show a pattern of disruption. If I file an User RfC about Joe Schmo's behavior and he turns around and says "Yep, you are the dirtiest whore I've ever seen. I outta blow your brains out.", well that can be included in the RfC. Furthermore anyone who addresses it and attempts to calm down the situation can be used as corroboration that attempts to diffuse the situation have been attempted. That was all I was trying to say. My disclaimer was intended to explicitly show I was not attributing these actions to the subject of the RfC, but merely stating them as a hypothetical. I believe anyone who reads it can clearly see my intent. — BQZip01 —  07:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Extra out-of-closure-process take-a-deep-breath sorry-for-the-drama note: all covered as fast I can type (=slowly), some words will cause me offense, rhetorically or not. Took multiple deep breaths. Closed. Franamax (talk) 07:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

INdeed. I am closing this discussion as it is basically drama spillover. No one is going to get blocked, and no page is to be protected or deleted. There is no incident here for an admin to deal with, and this thread is little more else than a drama magnet.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Viridae

1. 03:39, February 11, 2008 Viridae (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Athoughtforyou (Talk | contribs) ‎ (incorrect block)
2. 03:39, February 11, 2008 Viridae (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked OrionClemens (Talk | contribs) ‎ (incorrect block)
3. 03:39, February 11, 2008 Viridae (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Slintfan (Talk | contribs) ‎ (incorrect block)
4. 03:39, February 11, 2008 Viridae (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Academic38 (Talk | contribs) ‎ (incorrect block)
5. 03:39, February 11, 2008 Viridae (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Drstones (Talk | contribs) ‎ (incorrect block)

No, these were single purpose accounts with no contributions other than to stir up a problem we have with Oxford Round Table (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views).

More to the point, Viridae has an agenda against me and has a habit of undoing my admin actions, including undeleting a WP:CSD#G5 by request fo the banned user with discussion solely on Misplaced Pages Review. I think Viridae should not be undoing my actions, given a stated (again on Misplaced Pages Review) agenda against me.

I also think we need single purpose accounts like we need holes in our collective heads, but I'm happy to see what Carcharoth's discussions bring forward on that. Guy (Help!) 09:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment: How can you judge whether an account is a SPA if it has been created for only 2 days, makes 2 edits and is then blocked. A wee bit of good faith is always helpful. I make no comment on the dispute between you two. Woody (talk) 09:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Not relevant. Admins should not undo the actions of other admins with whom they have a long-standing dispute. And a single purpose account can indeed be diagnosed if it is registered in order to take part in a deletion debate on an article which is itself merely a vehicle for an off-wiki dispute. But I'd not have objected if it had been someone else, the problem here is Viridae's repeated actions against me, which are starting to look just a little personal. Guy (Help!) 09:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I'm not an admin, but aren't you guys not supposed to revert each others' administrative actions without discussing it first? I think I heard that somewhere. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:33, 11 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Guy care to look half a dozen sections up where a request that those accounts which were not CU confirmed sockpuppets be be unblocked was made, which I happened to catch and perform. Also nice of you to notify me of this - I caught it on my watchlist. As woody said, you can't determine a single purpose account on half a dozen edits - every account to start editing WP would come under that banner at first. Viridae 09:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Then you should've linked to that discussion in your summary, contacted Guy on his talk page, or otherwise made clear your reasons for the revert. "incorrect block" is flip and a wheel-war invitation. In my opinion. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:40, 11 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that it WAS an incorrect block, I was in a hurry - as evinced by the fact that I asked Ned to do the non-admin apologies. I work in science and frequently have short breaks in the day while something is incubating in which I log onto wikipedia. Sometimes I block someone reported on AIV, sometimes I check the requests for rollback and grant that if necessary - this time I saw the request for unblock, and having followed the previous discussion decided that these accounts were clearly good faith (anyone denying that?) and should not be block for a second longer. We do not need more of the academic establishment driven away while wikipedia argues with itself. As tro contacting guy on his talk page - he has taken to deleting anything I put there anyway so that is entirely pointless. The edit summary therefore came about because I was somewhat at a loss as to what to actually put there. Viridae 09:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If you don't have the time to carry out an admin action properly, then you should leave it to someone who does. I'm sure there were others who saw the same discussion you did, and there are no emergencies on Misplaced Pages. Equazcion •✗/C • 09:51, 11 Feb 2008 (UTC)

It was carried out properly, the only part of that that was actually an admin action was the unblock. The apology for the unblock could have been dealt with by anyone - and that was done quite sucessfully by Ned. While there may have been no huge hurry in the grand scale of things, had the wait cost us some very qualified editors wikipedia would have been so much worse off. Viridae 09:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of an admin action needs happen in conjunction with that action by the admin taking the action. They aren't two separate acts. If you revert another admin, you need to communicate your reasoning to them, preferrably before you even take the action. Again there are no emergencies, and that includes the potential to lose valuable editors. If you couldn't communicate, you shouldn't have acted. Equazcion •✗/C • 10:09, 11 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Actually Guy knows exactly why those were overturned as he was involved in the original discussion, there was no need for further communication that would almost certainly be ignored given recent history. And yes, it is always urgent to unblock a potentially valuable contributor. Especially one with academic qualifications - a species of editor wikipedia is sorely lacking. Viridae 10:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If you have "history", ie. an ongoing dispute with Guy then that's all the more reason not to take it upon yourself to revert his actions. Perhaps you should steer clear of policing that particular admin for a while, and let others be the judge of his actions. Equazcion •✗/C • 10:17, 11 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Other WERE the judge, did you not see the lengthy discussion further up the page? Viridae 10:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The leave it to the others to do the action. You should not be reversing my admin actions, you have an existing agenda against me. If others agree, let others do it. I suppose I should be grateful that at least this time the discussion took place on Misplaced Pages rather than Misplaced Pages Review, but somehow I'm not. Guy (Help!) 11:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't have an agenda Guy, you just think I do. Yes I dislike you, yes I believe you frequently make rash/incorrect decisions (like for instance deleting something as a G5 when it has significant contributions from other people) and yes I find you possibly the most uncivil person on the project at times but that does not make it a longstanding dispute. I have no grudge to bear however, this is my personal opinion - I find it INCREDIBLY hard to believe you have never performed an admin action on someone you dislike or overturned someones admin action when you dislike it. Smarten up and fly right (assume good faith and stop attacking other people) and I will no longer have a problem with you. That is NOT a longstanding dispute. Viridae 11:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I think given the obvious illwill here between Guy and Viridae, that keeping out of each other's way where possible is advisable; that means don't get involved in each other's actions, at all, period - not to reverse them, not to comment on them, nothing. If there's any actual concerns then present them (sans commentary) to WP:AN or WP:ANI. Neıl ☎ 11:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This whole thing is silly. Nothing in the blocking policy justified these blocks. Undoing them was the right thing to do and making it about Viridae obscures the issue. The issue is whether or not we can expect non-Wikipedians to read tree leaves to determine our policies or whether we should attempt to engage them before hitting the block button. If someone is a flagrant vandal and is replacing pages with nonsense, ok, I really am annoyed with the "you can't block them without 4 warnings" crowd, but these were good faith users who were simply unfamiliar with our policies. Blocking them is bad. When some of them requested unblock, declining those requests without attempting to engage the user compounded the error. I don't really give a flip about assessing blame, but I think we need to make clear this isn't how we do business and there's a difference between a flagrant troll and someone who just isn't familiar with our policies. --B (talk) 11:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

There's 1,488 other admins on Misplaced Pages. If Guy has made a bad block, one of them other than Viridae can unblock, as anything Viridae does (irrespective of intention and making no judgement as to who is or is not "correct" here) now upsets Guy. Neıl ☎ 12:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Guy has been given chances to communicate about his admin actions before, and is almost always either argumentative or dissmissive. ANYONE overturning one of his actions gets this response, so frankly I don't care whether it upsets him or not, if he makes an obviously bad call and I am in the position to deal with it, I will do so. If guy wants the lines of communcation to be opened again before I do so as I am quite happy to do, he can be civil and actually respond to queries. Viridae 12:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Just post your concerns here in future rather than acting on them - please? Neıl ☎ 12:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Neil, this is a red herring. A month or two ago, I nominated a template for deletion that happened to have been created by Guy. I had no earthly idea (didn't look, didn't care) who created it, but Guy accused me of nominating it as retaliation because I had disagreed with a block of his in an ANI discussion. It was utter nonsense, but the point is, it was refocusing the issue from one of whether or not the template was appropriate and trying to make it into merely a personal issue. Most of us really don't care one way or another about Misplaced Pages factions or personalities or anything like that. We don't sit here and debate political expediency and whether the blocking admin is someone we like or don't like. This is an encyclopedia, not a grade school club or a MMORPG. If Guy is right, we'll call him right - if he's wrong, we'll call him wrong. That's all there is to it. --B (talk) 13:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Unblocking should be discussed with the blocking admin. I am as guilty as anyone of broaching this on occasion. Anyway, Guy has decided he doesn't like Viridae for whatever reason, and whenever Viridae does try and contact him, Guy tells him to "go away". So I have suggested that instead of just countermanding Guy's admin actions, Viridae posts them here for review. I am neither defending nor agreeing with Guy's actions - that is a seperate issue. I'm simply asking Viridae to refrain from directly reversing Guy's admin actions, as the drama it creates tends to obfuscate the issue. Neıl ☎ 13:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"...whenever Viridae does try and contact him, Guy tells him to "go away". -Actually, he tells him to "fuck off", but I don't want to argue semantics.  :-D daveh4h 17:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse Neil's suggestions. I'm not familiar with the relationship between Guy and Viridae though, have other means already been taken to prevent this sort of stuff occurring? Rudget. 11:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You guys seem to be forgetting to do something here, so I'll start it off:

• Standing Ovation. Thank You Viridae for having the courage to stand up for the rights of the many. A lot of admins seem to feel that blocking people is an adequate solution for almost anything, when the truth is that it is only meant as a last resort. And, frankly I don't see any real cause to even get that far. --BETA 12:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• OK, now sit down. There's a difference between "standing up for the rights of many", and specifically targeting the actions of an admin based upon discussion at an attack site. As already stated, there are well over a thousand admins here; any one of them would have been a better candidate to analyze Guy's actions than Viridae. This sort of cowboy play doesn't work well either for developing consensus or developing community. Reverting admin actions without discussion is the sort of thing that inevitably leads to desysopping; are we sure that's the direction we want to take this? --jpgordon 17:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• I think many of the original blocks were a violation of WP:AGF and WP:BITE. Newbies can't be expected to know our policies about canvassing. They should be gently reminded about how Misplaced Pages works. Only blatant vandals should be blocked on sight. The unblocks were justified; I don't care who posted what on which third-party website. That has nothing to do with us. JzG really needs to work more cooperatively with others; he seems to have been given a pass from following WP:CIVIL. That needs to stop. *** Crotalus *** 19:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

FreeThoughts (talk · contribs)

This new user is changing mentions of Scientology in several celebrity bios to indicate that it is a cult. I don't care if it is or isn't, but don't want to see WP used as another tool in the recent campaign. Pairadox (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Just block. This person is obviously a POV pusher. Cult or not, this isn't what we mean by collaborative editing. EconomicsGuy (talk) 09:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I've warned FreeThoughts for 3RR on Katie Holmes. EconomicsGuy (talk) 10:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked 1 day. Equazcion •✗/C • 10:12, 11 Feb 2008 (UTC)

And I put him on notice with respect to the Article probation on scientology-related articles from Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS. Mangojuice 15:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Offensive title sockpuppet and/or confusion

offensive title.Numbered user seems to be sockpuppet of Dodona user(and if he isnt he mirrored his actions and while reading the talk it seems they are the same and they he forgot to change usernames).He copy pasted the same material and material belonging in the talk page in the article page and discusses as being both users but at the same time denying it.Also refuses to understand given position on article and the fact that he added a pseudohistorian(s) quote already removed along with his long comment on the talk page.Admin and other users rejected these positions in the past as well but to no avail.Megistias (talk) 13:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Said(dodona and/or numbered user) we are or making "greek propaganda in wikipedia",called on ethnicity and other elements said:they are most originally Albanian but they loath everything Albanian , you know what I mean it is just “schizophrenic". Megistias (talk) 13:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Oddly-named accounts maintaining legitimate articles in user space

Extreme confusion here: I just removed an entry from WP:UAA about a few accounts which are maintaining (what appear to be) legitimate hockey game log articles in user space. The accounts/IP involved so far are (and yes, these are real account names):

• Bozeman Icedogs Roster (talk · contribs)
• 2007-08 Bozeman Icedogs season (talk · contribs)
• 1974-75 Quebec Nordiques season (talk · contribs)
• 69.144.85.125‎ (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Does this behavior sound familiar to anyone? I've asked all four for clarification but have heard nothing. They are active - 69.144.85.125‎ edited one of the user pages a few minutes ago - and a couple of them have made legitimate edits elsewhere (although a couple haven't). I couldn't find where the articles had been deleted from article space so it's not a WP:CSD#G4 end-around. Template space pages have been modified and created to link to the user pages . I'm tempted to ask for a checkuser but I'm not sure I care since nothing particularly malicious is going on. I'm thoroughly confused. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If the articles are legitimate and are not CSD-eligible, why not move them to the article space (if no article space copy exists)? Pegasus «C¦T» 17:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin protecting a page after revert

Recently there has been a dispute on Poverty in India. While things get heated, users and admins should abide by policies. Admittedly the inclusion of a beggar image is contentious, to say the least.

User:Olivier, who is an admin, has an opinion that the image should be removed. To that end he has argued on the talk page against it (). On February 11, he removed the image, and then immediately protected the page.

My question is: is it appropriate for an admin to protect a page on which he/she is one of the disputing parties?

According to WP:PROTECT "Administrators protecting pages for this reason should do so regardless of the state the page may be in, and not revert to another version, or otherwise modify the page, except as permitted below...Administrators should not protect or unprotect a page for this reason if they are in any way involved in the dispute."

Bless sins (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• You just answered your own question. --jpgordon 17:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your diffs are correct, though it might be better to assume good faith that Olivier was trying to resolve the content dispute. That said, the article should not have been changed because of the dispute and then protected by the same person. That seems a little iffy to me —αlεx•mullεr 17:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps ask him if he recalls this policy? Bstone (talk) 17:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I have notified User:Olivier of this thread. - Philippe | Talk 17:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Bstone, no one should be protecting pages if don't recall the protection policy. It says as much every time you click the "Protect" button. The best approach is probably just to ask Olivier why s/he reverted to the preferred version, and ask him/her to self-revert back to the "wrong" version. MastCell  18:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Callmebc

Callmebc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been recently unblocked from a block that stemmed from his edit warring after recently being unblocked from an indefinite block that stemmed from myriad others blocks resulting from the same problem. Got that? In more simpler terms: he hasn't got the message. Here is a relevant discussion on these same noticeboards not month ago about his disruptive behavior, which led to a two week block. He was blocked indefinitely prior to that for being wholly uncivil and an unrelenting edit warrior. His block blog affirms that. It was most generous of User:Haemo to unblock his indefinite block indeed, and quite generous of the succeeding blocking admin to block for only two weeks instead of going back to indefinitely. The terms on which he has been allowed to edit here have been laid out rather robustly by various admins and he has made various promises or commitments to these terms and standards, which leads me to my reason of posting all of this. On Global warming (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), User:Callmebc has been edit warring again, though just to the brim of making it within WP:3RR. However, given the past discussions on this user, I think it is safe to say that there should be zero tolerance for him to edit war. A now it seems he has been (disruptively?) canvassing other users (see contribs). I'll let the powers that be decide what ought to be done. ~ UBeR (talk) 17:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that this complaint is being filed by a persistent anti-science POV pusher, who himself has been blocked repeatedly for incivility. In this case, the edit warring Uber refers to was him reverting to preserve the wording changes he made during CallmeBC's absence. I've asked Raymond Arritt and William M. Connelly to weigh in on this one, and we should defer to what they say. Raul654 (talk) 17:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd advise all interested admins to ignore the above comments, because they are useless and not germane to the discussion. I would delete them under the just pretense of WP:NPA, but invariably I'm sure that would lead to my block from this unneutral administrator. Let me remind the interested administrators that this is about the aforementioned user's behavior--that is to say I'm not here as part to resolve a content dispute. I'm confident that can be resolved reasonably by educated editors on the GW talk page, because it is rather clear it is Callmebc's edits that lack truth to them, and I was merely undoing his mistakes to at least keep the article accurate as possible. Me, the so-called "anti-science POV pusher" has pushed nothing but factually accurate science since being here, so not only are the above comments wholly uncivil and contrary to WP:NPA, but completely without regard to the truth. A careful examination of my edits and blocks show this to be true, with blocks only coming from the above administrator because of some mislead biases and vendettas he has against me. So again, I reiterate, ignore the above as the content of the dispute is easily resolvable, but the behavior of the user is what brought me here. ~ UBeR (talk) 17:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that's a pretty aggresive response. I assure that I, for one, will not be ignoring the comments of a trusted user who also happens to be an administrator, a bureaucrat, a check-user, etc. In this case, the content of the dispute and the behaviour of the users involved are intrinsically intertwined. - Philippe | Talk 17:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, appeals to authority tend to lead to folly discussions. Raul654 has but demagogued the issue. I'd be glad to discuss the content, because I can assure you that Callmebc has been inserting inaccurate information (and I have but removed it). If by "intertwined" you mean that typically his edit warring is over the insertion of inaccurate content (as is the case for Killian and GW articles), then, sure, I could agree. But I think it would be best to discuss the content, in this case, at talk:Global warming. ~ UBeR (talk) 17:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

UBeR has indeed demonstrated in the past what some might consider to be some hostility towards me and perhaps what might be seen as a little fudging of the truth, and this thing here appears on the surface to be only more of it. His actions in this situation are mostly outlined via these two links here and here. The basic background is that I had one time posted, after a Talk page discussion, a graph on Global Warming with I thought was a pretty good description. During a later block on me, UbeR changed the wording to what I felt was something not nearly as clear. I recently created a new Talk page section on GW to discuss changing the wording back to its original, and evidently UBeR saw this mostly as an opportunity to get me blocked again by provoking me into a revert war by being untimely and unresponsive to the Talk page discussion and automatically reverting me after I had allowed for more than ample time for discussion. I have since requested comments by other GW regulars: . I think UbeR's actions and mine in this particular situation, once you take a look, speak for themselves. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 17:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Further evidence is presented here that Misplaced Pages needs to take aggressive steps to protect scientific integrity in it's articles, and to protect especially editors who work to advance real science, free or political, social, of religious nonsense. Perhaps another look at scientific point of view is needed, to keep the lunatic junk science under a harness. Lawrence § t/e 18:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

No block needed; some form of dispute resolution or mediation should be done. If mediation and/or dispute resolution is conclusive in its findings, and ignored by one party or the other, then ArbCom may be a next step. However, other than some perhaps short-term 3RR blocks, I see no evidence of bad faith or foul play against either side that requires the drastic measures called for here. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I would agree if it were not for the user's exceptional history. ~ UBeR (talk) 18:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

RfA canvassing by User:Yellowbeard

Does this count as canvassing or friendly notices? http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Yellowbeard I find it hard to draw the line because it's not like he's contacting 50 users; on the other hand, he is specifically writing to those who have been on the opposite side of Abd in debates at Talk:Instant runoff voting and similar fora. This would seem to fall under Misplaced Pages:CANVASS#Votestacking. He has been warned once. 129.174.91.119 (talk) 17:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It appears he was warned by User:El_C and has ignored that warning and persisted in inappropriately canvassing oppose !votes. I've blocked him for 24 hours; up to the closing 'crat at the RfA whether any !votes need to be weighted to account for canvassing. MastCell  17:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Problem with anonymous user evading 2 week block using multiple ip's and engaging in edit warring.

Ip Special:Contributions/217.87.88.179 had been blocked for 2 weeks earlier this morning (see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Problem_with_repeated_incivility_from_IP_user). Since then, he has used multiple ip's to vandalize talk pages, and engage in edit warring at Talk:Binary prefix. The multiple ip's are Special:Contributions/217.87.88.179, Special:Contributions/217.237.148.23, Special:Contributions/217.237.148.24, Special:Contributions/217.237.148.25. I'm asking for an sprotect for Talk:Binary prefix, and for someone to look in to more drastic measures against that ip's dial-up service as this has been an ongoing problem for months with this person (see user:Sarenne, User:NotSarenne, User_talk:217.87.59.247, User_talk:217.87.98.171, User_talk:217.87.61.227, etc.) --Marty Goldberg (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes please, this IP user is getting out of control again and it appears to be a regular cycle of abuse. Fnagaton 18:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This may be in need of a Range-Block, since the nature of the drifting IP address indicates that individual whack-a-mole blocks may be futile and ineffective. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

For starters, I have semi-protected Talk:Binary prefix for 48 hours. — Satori Son 18:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. :) *Breathes sigh of relief* Fnagaton 18:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Prem Rawat and talk page

Following off-wiki coverage, this page has become a focus for some unhelpful behavior and perhaps also for some users with specific viewpoints and agendas. Examples evidencing the behaviors, and that others have noticed this: this comment, this revert, and incivility issues .

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the matter are, Jossi has stated that he will not edit those pages for the time being. It is appropriate that others do not use the wiki as a battleground either to attack people on them.

Proposed -- slightly more eyeballs on this page and its talk page, and a few warnings (and admin action if needed) when personal attacks, incivility, or unhelpful editing is taking place. Would it be okay for a few people to keep an eye on this area for conduct?

FT2  18:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Muhammad protected, yet again

I appealed to the protecting admin (whose only editing periodically now) and posted an unprotection on WP:RPP about this (at which point I was referred to ANI), so I'm here... again. Essentially, without repeating everything I said a few days ago and which was said by others on the talk page of the article, this article is not really being subjected to (much) edit warring. We mostly have a variety of a drive-by editors removing the images without any willingness to participate in the ongoing discussions on the talk page and/or heed past (even recent past) consensuses. As a result, most of these editors have been blocked (or they have merely stopped). That appears to be the most sensible route to take, especially because the level of disruption is dwindling; we currently have a manageable number of drive-by removers. We should just leave this article without full protection (but with semi-protection), then refer drive-by image removers to the talk page of the article. If they still persist in removing the images without any discussion whatsoever, they can be blocked. A similar proposal was made by, among several others, Daniel (talk · contribs). His proposal is mentioned here, but none of these proposals has every reached a solid conclusion. -- tariqabjotu 18:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It's going to be difficult to come to a perfect consensus, but I !vote that the article remain semi-protected unless we see 4 day old accounts starting to edit war, then full protection. Misplaced Pages is not censored, leave the Muhammad images there. We don't have to fold to any religions, activist groups, or any other crowd that wants to change our goal: provide information to the world. Useight's Public Sock (talk) 19:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)