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Military history: Maritime / Technology / Weaponry / North America / United States Start‑class

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Requested move

RIM-161 Standard missile 3 → RIM-161 Standard Missile 3 — Clearcut WP:NC capitalisation issue for proper noun, but one editor is unhappy with this. —GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 17:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

• Oppose the missile's name is Standard, not Standard Missile. Like Tarter missile or Terrier missile. --Dual Freq (talk) 17:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Well whenever I see the whole thing spelled out, the word Missile is capitalised. Missile does appear to be part of the name, after all, the abbreviation is "SM-3" not "S-3". --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 17:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • And it's manufacturer capitalises the M as well - http://www.raytheon.com/products/standard_missile/ --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 17:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Designation Systems articles, which we use for references: routinely us the word Standard alone, without the word missile. Navy factfile italicizes the word Standard as the missile's name, they capitalize Missile not because it is the name, but to indicate that SM means Standard missile, to illustrate the acronym. Astronautix doesn't. Not capitalizing missile is inline with the USN's previous missiles Talos, Tartar, Terrier, Sea Sparrow and finally Standard. We do not have an article called Talos Missile, Tartar Missile, Terrier Missile or Sea Sparrow Missile. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Encyclopedia Of World Sea Power by Tony Cullen p.249 ISBN 0517653427 has an article on the missiles, called "Standard". It begins saying "The semi-active radar homing conventional warhead Standard family of naval SAMs started development in the early 1960s as a replacement for the Terrier and Tartar systems." Not one time in the article is missile capitalized on pages 249 or 250. Most of the time it is used Standard SM-2MR or Standard SM-2ER in the text as an example. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Five questions:

1. If "Missile" is not part of the name, why is it part of the acronym?
2. While "Standard" alone may be an alternative name, can you provide any information that "Standard Missile" is not the official name?
3. Why do you trust third-party sources (DS, EA, etc) over first-party sources (Raytheon, US Navy, etc)? Surely Raytheon and USN know the name of their own missile?
4. If "Missile" is not part of the name, why is it called "Standard Missile 3", and not "Standard 3 missile"?
5. Seeing as disambiguation was not required, why did you put the word "missile" in the title at all, when you created the page? Other missiles don't do that - RIM-8 Talos, not RIM-8 Talos missile, to use your own example.

That should be enough to be getting on with, please try to answer all points. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 22:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

• • The Encyclopedia of Modern U.S. Military Weapons Timothy M. Laur, Steven L. Llanso, Walter J. Boyne ISBN 0425164373 has pages 251 - 255 on various Standard missiles, referring to them as Standard SM-1 MR or Standard SM-2 MR. It starts out saying, "The Standard missile family was the result of an improvement program..." It also notes on page 254, "... during operation Desert Storm, but no Standards were launched." It refers to the missile as Standard, not Standard Missile since the missile's name is Standard. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
    • The Missile Defense Agency (who probably know a lot more about US missile defence than Timothy M. Laur, Steven L. Llanso and Walter J. Boyne) use "Missile" - "a Standard Missile -3 (SM-3) Block IA was launched." - . No matter how many third party sources you throw at it, the fact is that the US military use the capitalised designation. You also haven't answered any of my points.--GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 23:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
    • What did the MDA call the Standard when it came out in the 1960s? Never mind, MDA didn't exist. --Dual Freq (talk) 23:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support Per the manufacturer and nominator. It appears to be part of the name of the system. Narson (talk) 21:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support per US Navy where its name is "Standard Missile Three (SM-3)".

• • Close discussion without prejudice - Why are we discussing a move of a single page, with only two move options, when so many other articles are involved, and was already being discussed at a central location (Talk:Standard Missile)? If that page comes up with a different solution than the one chsoen ehre, we'll have to do this all over again. Please close this discussion,a nd take up the broader issue of all the pages at the central talk page. Thanks. - BillCJ (talk) 23:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

New "References" tag

I've moved the "References for characteristics" entry in the infobox into a new {{{References}}} tag that I've added to the {{Infobox Missile}} template. Applying those tags to the {{{name}}} parameter doesn't work very well because the black reference tags don't show up well against the green header background. Wdfarmer (talk) 23:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

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