Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:34, 18 February 2008

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Old messages are at

• User talk:Giano II/archive 1 (2004)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 2 (2005)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 3 (2005)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 4 (2006)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 5 (2006)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 6 (2007)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 7 (2007)
• User talk:Giano II/archive 8 (2008)

Essay: A few thoughts on writing Featured Articles

I see there looks to be some certainty of this resolution passing . Designed no doubt to prevent their errors and stupidity being publicly pointed out in future. No doubt the little, non-writing, Admins on IRC will have some kind of competition to see who can be the first to achieve fame by blocking me. Let's face it, fame won't come to them any other way. Sadly, for them, they will never have the opportunity. The Arbs were very ill-advised ever accepting this case. They now seem to want to risk even more mass disruption rather than accept they made a very silly mistake. However, when an entire case has been based on pure spite and revenge, I suppose one cannot really be surprised at the outcome. The Arbcom are well aware that I won't be ruled, or intimidated, by a chatroom which is exactly what such a resolution means. Neither will I hang about to play silly buggers with a chatroom. The page on which I "edit warred" is now gone, it seems it never was a Misplaced Pages page - so it has not been all a waste.

Another good thing to emerge from this is Jimbo's ruling that the chatroom is now under the Arbcom's jurisdiction , something they had always denied before I raised this matter. Had I not raised these issues so forcefully, they would never have been addressed. None of you must ever, ever let them forget what Jimbo has decreed. Giano (talk) 17:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

award

Au contraire - this is the much more light-hearted original cirteria, as Billy Joel is a much better judge of core articles than Misplaced Pages:Vital articles....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What? As in we didn't start the fire? lol - really? Heavens! --Joopercoopers (talk) 10:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/IRC

This arbitration case has closed and the final decision may be found at the link above. Giano is placed on civility restriction for one year. Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling. All parties in this case are strongly cautioned to pursue disputes in a civil manner designed to contribute to resolution and to cause minimal disruption. All the involved editors, both the supporters and detractors of IRC, are asked to avoid edit warring on project space pages even if their status is unclear, and are instructed to use civil discussion to resolve all issues with respect to the "admin" IRC channel. For the Arbitration committee, Thatcher 04:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry, I have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages any longer, or any thoughts concerning it. Giano (talk) 08:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• I hope you will reconsider and return soon. You have no restrictions placed on you that keep you from being able to fully participate in Misplaced Pages. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Flo, I've left this message on your talk page, but perhaps it is best to put a copy of my thoughts here as well.

I too wish that Giano would stay and continue to participate in Misplaced Pages. From the perspective of the encyclopedia, he is an incredibly valuable contributor; from the personal perspective, I have learned a great deal about editing and greatly value the encouragement he has given me. Giano's mainspace edits are legendary, and his contributions on the meta side have significantly improved content and behaviour with respect to "The Troubles," addressing paedophilia-related activity on this site, abusive blocking and transparency here on Misplaced Pages. His meta positions have been supported by the wide community despite his sometimes excessive zeal; many who "opposed" Giano's election to Arbcom commented that he had the right ideas but his approach wasn't suited to being an Arbcom member. It is difficult to know whether the changes in Misplaced Pages culture could have been made without Giano's rhetoric and focus on issues. Let's compare the defense of !! and the granting of rollback to non-administrators: Both involved walking very fine lines and pushed the community hard into a new direction, with high-flying rhetoric and violation of WP conventions. Giano got warned for being rude and violating unwritten rules (which remain unwritten, as the community cannot come to a consensus on what those rules are); Ryan Postlethwaite was invited to join a special Arbcom subcommittee.

Just about anyone can make the list of administrators who would be watching every word written by Giano, ready to whack him with a block, whether deserved or not. One snippy comment in a FAR. One snotty response on his talk page. Another Eurocentric allusion that goes over the average American's head. "Obscene trolling: knows German" may well be the standard. Heck, there are several statements in his essay - a poignant and humorous final gift to our community - that would incite some admins to block him. And no AN or ANI discussion, just another report to WP:AE that nobody questions or reads. And if someone does question the block, then we're back to the drama that nobody needs - not the community, not Arbcom, and not Giano either. From that perspective, with such a huge "kick me" sign pinned to his back, who can blame Giano for walking away? Hundreds of others already have. Risker (talk) 14:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Well said, Risker. Why would anyone want to participate here after being singled out and insulted this way? When I look at how other people insult Giano, and how Giano often takes it on board (look at, for example: User_talk:Giano/Exploding_Houses#Sorry where Giano calmly and patiently explains matters after being insulted) I think the charge that Giano is the big problem here (as evidenced by being the only person mentioned by name in the ArbCom decision) is ludicrous. Any "refocusing of enthusiasm" is likely now to be to Misplaced Pages's detriment. As for the suggestion that Giano was impeding rewriting a policy page, I find that laughable. That page was the way it was for what, a year? It could have been rewritten at any time, and in fact that is what Giano was trying to spur. Could he have done it better? Sure. But let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I don't see the arbcom decision as being the last thing to happen in this little affair and I think (as I said on my own talk) it's going to end badly. Which is really unfortunate. Will WP persevere without Giano's contributions if he doesn't come back? Yes, but article space will be a poorer place, and we also will miss out on the thoughtful and insightful comments in metaspace. Will Giano get on with life without WP? Probably, if he can actually manage to stay away (it's hard, WP is so addictive). But both WP and Giano will be the poorer for it. ++Lar: t/c 14:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I hope that now that the case is closed that Giano will take the Committee's feedback seriously. As someone that has supported and defended Giano in the past myself, I found myself no longer able to do it because it was becoming a chronic pattern of conduct. Lar, I hope that Giano will follow the example of users like yourself that purposely choose to moderate their language and conduct on site to match our policies. My main concern was that Giano did not indicate that he planned to modify his conduct in the future, and in fact never acknowledged that it was a problem while most other involved parties did so. His choice to continue making provocative edits such as edit warring during the case and like putting the Proposed Decision page up for deletion) are the reason that the case closed with a finding against him and not others. I hope that you and others that he has listened to in the past will encourage him to come back as I feel he has much to offer. Thanks for your thoughts. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The choice was his to engage in highly provocative behavior that is well outside of policy and in my opinion has impeded the Community from writing a reasonable IRC guideline. Misplaced Pages is based on the idea that decisions will be made through calm collaborative discussion. It is impossible for that to happen when several editors raise the level of discourse to the point that most thoughtful people give up and walk away. Giano has a history of doing this. My goal is to re-focus his enthusiasm toward supporting our dispute resolution processes to achieve his goals. I opposed remedies that would stop his participation in Misplaced Pages policy making as I do value his opinion. As a high profile editor he needs to lead by example. Please encourage Giano to return as I feel that Misplaced Pages will be a better place with him here. Thanks for your thoughts. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Flo, the problem with this remedy is that it paints a bullseye on Giano's head, when he arguably already had one on it, hence half the problems with the insults and the various blocks (some justified, but some definitely not). In my view -- and I'm sure Giano will not thank me for saying this -- a block would have been preferable, if any sanction were needed, because at least the block would be served then done with. But to leave a poorly defined parole hanging over him for a long time is humiliating, and it's the humiliation that has driven him away, as it was bound to. SlimVirgin 15:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The Committee made the decision that we thought overall served the best interest of the Community. The majority of the Committee felt that it was the best of several options. It is hard to make a Finding like this against someone that you respect and agree with about many things. But I feel that Giano left us no other choice. Plese encourage him to return. Thanks for your thoughts. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The Committee thought this decision served the best interest of the Community? The Committee was wrong. -Hit bull, win steak 19:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The Remedy arbcom passed was always a poor one. I've criticised attempts to put Giano on civility parole before. The problem with it is it would allow hotheads to block Giano, and at the same time allow Giano (if he chose) to push at the bounds in search of the the drama of an unjust block. The remedy made Giano's departure unfortunately inevitable, and the only thing to do is to give Giano credit that he chose to leave like this, rather than waiting for the drama of being dispatched by a poor blocking decision in the future, which would have been far more disruptive for the community. However, neither will I be too hard on arbcom. Whilst there is an idiotic community minority on one side who want Giano gone or silent, and a minority on the other for whom Giano can do no wrong, most sane people badly want Giano to stay, and will defend his right to express his wiki-views, however, they don't want any more "Franken-Giano"ism. By that I mean Giano's tactic of: 1) using heated and polarising rhetoric 2) painting everyone who doesn't agree 100% as part of the problem 3) assuming that everyone critical of the methods and tone wants to silence the message 4) never admitting any wrong on his own part 5) assuming bad faith of anyone that dares to be critical. Basically, we need Giano to remember that the aim in every dispute is to seek some form of dispute *resolution*, not to wage perpetual warfare. Now, there is simply not any arbcom remedy that can compel that, that can leave Giano free both to edit and to comment, but compel him to comment in a different fashion. So arbcom can either do nothing (which has been what they have done up till now) or pass some unsatisfactory remedy that will doubtless result in him leaving. The only person who could have given a way out here was Giano. Had he indicated at any point that he'd reflect on the widespread criticism of his tactics (a criticism shared even by many who agreed with his messages) I would immediately have called for the case to be closed without sanction and sang "Alleluia". Even now, were Giano to even hint at a desire to proceed a little differently (or just to start doing it), I'd call for arbcom to remove the sanction immediately. Giano, if I can help you find a way back, you only have to ask.--Doc 16:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What Doc said. Stifle (talk) 09:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Caro Giano

Giano, I probably have no business weighing in here, since we've never been close, but that Southern Belle has an awfully large waistline and eyebrows in desperate need of a serious shaping and waxing, so I have a vested interest in seeing you stay around to replace that picture. How come Raul gets a great physique, and I get bushy eyebrows?  :-))

I went through a singularly unpleasant experience one month ago in an ArbCom case, and as horrible as that experience was (do you 'spose the Arbs understand how awful it is?), I know it was nothing compared to what you've been through. From my read of things, you ended up there partly for defending Bish's honor; it's sad that should be necessary.

I'd really hate to see Wiki lose your writing and your presence. After what happened to me, I doubted for many weeks I would even want to return to Wiki or could find the restored enthusiasm and energy I used to enjoy here. I knew I couldn't come back unless I could find a motivation to continue with joy. Two things made a difference for me and brought me back in spite of the serious shortcomings we all have to deal with on Wiki: friends and a forced break. The bottom line is that, no matter how bad it can be, there are some really fine editors here on Wiki and they enrich my life. I hope the thought of interacting with other editors like Yomangani, who also took a long break and returned with enthusiasm, will help you find a way back to us. Because I was traveling to remote areas with limited internet access, I had a semi-forced break after the ArbCom closed, and that time off was crucial in helping me regain my footing. So please consider seriously taking time off to reconsider, and while you're thinking it over, you may find that the exceptional people you know on Wiki may come to mean more to you than the unpleasant things about The Way Wiki Works. You can always use the WikiBreak Enforcer to give yourself a pre-determined amount of time to think things over. Whatever you decide, I hope you'll be happy and be well. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Cabinet (architecture)

The subject may entice you, even though the little start I've made hardly sketches the outlines of the subject. Was a gabinetto always a close-stool or necessary? Was it ever a studiolo? --Wetman (talk) 12:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Helping the project

I just placed this quote on my userpage:

Not all, or perhaps even most, of the powerful accounts (admins, arbitrators, etc) in Misplaced Pages are unreasonable people. But, as the Essjay, BADSITES, IRC, Weiss/Overstock.com , and other episodes have shown, the few who are unreasonable and in positions of authority, and who seem to enjoy using "private" mailing lists and IRCs to further their personal agendas, often cause immense problems for the project and to those editors who are actually here to try to write quality articles or measurably improve article space in some other way. Giano is helping fight this and is often successful in doing so, to the great benefit of the project.

Notice I said "is" helping fight this, not "was" and I hope that this is still the case. Cla68 (talk) 02:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting thesis, but I'm not sure it is correct. It's "strength comes from a vast number of people making small changes" - now, I think there was some evidence to show that was NOT the case, that the bulk of our contributions (excepting vandalism) was actually by 3-4,000 regulars. I'd also point out that whilst passers-by might fix typos or occasionally contribute an article stub on something they care about, almost all our quality work (GA FA etc) is done by a regular core of "experts". Could this just be that you done like one perceived regular core, because you belong to another perceived one? I say perceived, because I think it is a myth to assume that there are two distinct camps of "writers" and "admins 'experts'". There are certainly some admins that seldom write, but in fact of the influential ones do. I note, for instance, that nearly ALL people that get elected to arbcom have made high-end content contributions.

Why I'm being slightly critical here, is that I think everyone has been far too fast to shout "THEY are the problem" and then engage in rhetorical flourishes to show why, supported by a few meagre anecdotes for evidence. Now, it may well be that we do have a group of people whose net contribution is negative (or more likely could be more positive), but before anyone rushes to that prognosis, I'd suggest some careful and objective research. "my understanding of" is perhaps a poor basis for making sweeping statements, when those statements tend to further polarise the community. And I suspect, admittedly not on clear evidence either, that rhetoric that tends to polarising the community is perhaps the most destructive feature of the recent disputes. Just some thoughts.--Doc 09:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't agree totally with the quote either. I think it was more true a year ago than it is now. I'd say that the group of Wikipedians that this applies to is small and growing smaller, thanks in part to Giano's and others efforts. But, it still exists to some degree. Also, what the quote doesn't address, and this applies to your statement that all of the ArbCom members have high-end content contributions, is that some of the "obsessive" Wikipedians aren't seeking personal prestige. They're seeking influence so that they can push their personal POVs easier. There are several admins, at least one of whom is a former ArbCom member, who have developed quite a reputation for pushing and protecting certain POVs in certain subjects. Cla68 (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hang on. I've no doubt that there are some people "seeking influence" to push POV, and the example you cite is particularly notorious (I will not defend that individual). However, I think you are still using anecdote as justification for sweeping generalities and assuming bad faith. Are you really suggesting that most "obsessive" wikipedians are either power-hungry POV pushers or non-writing and problematic? Where is the evidence? As for the assertion that Giano has reduced the number of wikipedians that fall into whatever "problem admin" category you envisage, can you explain how Giano's activity has helped reduce this? Logic? Evidence? I'd say, that one of the problems is that we've had far too many sweeping generalisations that attempt to caricature some problem "group" from a few anecdotes and bad experiences. I'd say that part of the solution is to avoid polemicist rhetoric and stick to calm, balanced, analysis of any problems, explaining why we think this is a problem and assuming that most people want to work to minimise any problems we can specifically isolate. I think we've had enough of divisive partisan paranoia based on poor evidence and analysis with logic jumps.--Doc 19:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

From Herr Ludwig & I

Here is one of my favorite works of Ludwig Van's. It seems highly fitting and appropriate considering it is about one gallant hero's struggle against tyranny. Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic did it justice, quite unlike what the ArbCom did for you. I hope it helps inspire you to continue the fight in whatever manner you see fit.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 11:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Giano forever

Giano forever

Meglio un giorno da leone che cento da pecora. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.65.0.99 (talk) 16:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

courtesy of the manic street preachers

Been natural for once in my life
Now I'll have to swallow some pride
Know that I should never give advice
But it's too late now to say goodbye

Be natural don't want any friends
Be natural come on and hit me again
Be natural I'm repeating myself
Be natural is there anything else

Hiding T 22:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Tutorial: Getting an article to featured article status

Hello, Giano. I was asked to write a signpost tutorial about how to get an article to featured article. This is my first draft. It is based on my own page: User:Yannismarou/Ten rules to make an article FA. It is today during writing the tutorial that I first read your own essay, which impressed me I must say. I would be grateful If you had the time to check the draft, offer any comments you would like, check the prose, and propose me any improvements you regard as useful. Thank you in advance!--Yannismarou (talk) 15:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a bit ...late.--Wetman (talk) 00:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

List of massacres

Giano, there is a "consensus" being manufactured in this critical article (it defines Wikis handling of inbuilt systematic bias). I strongly feel you should read the talk pages; look at the history and I'd appreciate your views on how to proceed or other advice. Regards, Sarah777 (talk) 15:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I think Giano is no longer with us at wikipedia - see IRC. I think Giano didn't take kindly to being shot as the messenger. --Joopercoopers (talk) 22:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Nor would I. I see Derova and Ioeth both have roles in the Misplaced Pages:Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars - wonderful news for anyone expecting an improvement! Sarah777 (talk) 22:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of ethnic and national edit wars

Giano, maybe you should add prophet to your resume. You saw this coming like global warming too. Yet another example of why you should be sitting on the ArbCom instead of driven away by it! So many of Wiki's problems could be avoided by heeding your sage words. But, alas, being a voice in the wilderness is one of a prophet's occupational hazards.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 06:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

1. David Wiernicki, comment in the The Register