Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:04, 23 July 2005

This article is created along the lines of "criticisms of socialism." The text was moved here from Communism, which is now finally turning into a standard encyclopedic entry. 172 10:20, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I've taken up the herculean task of cleaning up the article, giving it a better structure and making it NPOV. I have to say I'm pretty proud of my work. :) Go and have a look. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:22, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Pretty good, but we have about 12 hours before a series of reverts and crys of "censorship of the worst kind" from you know who... I never realistically imagined it becoming so passable. Still, it could correct more flaws in Ultramarine's writing, such as more direct citations of authors such as Conquest, rather than nebulous references to "critics of communism." Vague passages lacking context like the following are still troubling: "Extensive historical research has documented large scale human rights violations that occurred in Communist states." Of course, one could just as easly write it following in (say) capitalism: "Extensive historical research has documented large scale human rights violations that occurred in capitalist societies." Instead, such a passage should cite the conclusions of specific authors, and how they pin the blame on communism. 172 | Talk 16:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I did my best to leave his anti-communist arguments virtually untouched, so as to prove that I am editing in good faith and want to reach a good quality, readable and NPOV article. Most of my heavy editing was done on the pro-communist arguments, which had been grossly misrepresented and dismissed. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

That's true. His writing can remain largely intact, but we can fill in the attributions within the text later on. 172 | Talk 16:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I've taken another look over it and corrected one obviously false statement. Human rights violations haven't occured in ALL Communist states ALL the time. But other than that, I've left the human rights objections unchanged and unattributed. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 17:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

At least not on the scale it implied; if one looked broadly enough, one could find human rights problems in any country at any time, including the U.S., which boasts the world's highest per capita prison population... Later on I'll take another look at the paragraph and turn in more into a summary of Conquest, Pipes, Rummel, et al. 172 | Talk 17:03, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

New version

I will remove the claims of original research and factual inaccuracy unless examples are presented. Ultramarine 05:47, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Violation of Misplaced Pages policy

172, you have violated Misplaced Pages policy by deleting The two-version template. Here is a link to my version Ultramarine 06:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Reversions of Mihnea Tudoreanu's fixes

Ultramarine, the issue is not the two-version template but your reversion of Mihnea's changes, which left the article much more readable, NPOV, and encyclopedic. 172 | Talk 06:26, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You have violated Misplaced Pages policy both by deleting the template and reverting which the template states should not be done without consensus on the talk page. Ultramarine 06:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

If you explain why you reverted her hard work on this page, then you one would have to revert back to an old version to begin with. 172 | Talk 06:33, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I have incorporated many of the recent changes. In addition, I have added numerous references in the text and much new information, including much well-referenced critique now deleted. Ultramarine 06:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

In order to resolve the dispute, each of us will have to explain his edits and his objections to the other person's version. In meaningful detail. Generalities like "I have added many useful things" are quite worthless. In this spirit, I will begin:

1. My edits were motivated by three reasons:

(a) Structure - I found the structure of your article to be lacking in many respects.

(b) Accuracy - You repeatedly misrepresented the communist position, for example by claiming that "some" communists believe the term "communist state" to be an oxymoron (when in fact all of them do), or by refusing to acknowledge that there are, in fact, communist objections to the "communist states" as well.

(c) NPOV - Some parts of your article - for example the ones about "Lenin's famine" or "useful idiots" were pure, unredeemable POV.

2. With that in mind, my edits can be classified as follows:

(a) Corrections of structure - "Were the Communist states communist?" was replaced by "Communist critique of Communist states", since that is what it refers to. Marx's predictions, which are part of theory (not practice), and which were done using Historical Materialism, were moved to the section on Historical Materialism. The accusation of pseudoscience, which is also targeted at Historical Materialism (since that is the only part of Marxism that claims the status of science) was also moved to the appropriate section.

(b) Corrections of accuracy - The introduction was expanded to mention that the two kinds of criticisms (against communist states and against theory) are distinct. A header was added in order to point the reader to Criticisms of socialism and explain the purpose of this article. The fact that "communist state" is an oxymoron was mentioned, and a link was provided to the appropriate discussion within the communist state article. The sections on Historical Materialism and the LTV were improved, since you obviously either do not know what communists believe or you are trying to misrepresent those beliefs on purpose.

(c) Corrections of POV - The section on "Lenin's Famine" was not only hopelessly POV (taking the staunch anti-communist side in a controversial issue), but also unjustified. The rest of the article makes general observations, without going into specifics. If you want to go into specifics, shouldn't you start with more important events, like the Great Purge, the Great Leap Forward, etc.? The section on "useful idiots" doesn't even criticize communism at all, it just says that a number of Western right-wingers think that communists are idiots. That would be better suited for an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, a number of your section headings were POV, such as "real-world failures". Failures according to whom? Supporters of communist states certainly don't think they were failures - on the contrary!

And one final note regarding POV: You have the bad habit of sandwiching the opposing POV between two statements that support your POV. In other words, you follow this model:

1. Anti-communists say X.
2. Communists say Y.
3. But anti-communists reply with Z.

This is highly inappropriate, not to mention making it difficult for our readers to follow the article. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:47, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

You seem to think things that you dislike are POV and should be removed. My facts are well-referenced and if you want to remove them, show that the references are incorrect. Regarding predictions, they are tested in the real-world. A Google search shows numerous claims of "Marxist science" which thus can be criticized . I incorporated a number of your changes that were improvements. Critique of Lenin is important, since many think that he was innocent and all evil started with Stalin.

Here are some of the things deleted by 172 when he reverted to your version.

Cuba is often cited as a successful example of by communists. However, Cuba was one of most developed nations in Latin America before Castro. Other Latin American nations have seen greater increases in literacy than Cuba. Calories per person has declined in Cuba while it has increased in most other Latin American nations. Cubans eat less cereals and meat than before Castro .

After 1965, life expectancy began to decline in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe while it continued to increase in Western Europe. This decline accelerated after the change to market economy in the states of the former Soviet Union but has now started to increase in the Baltic states. In Eastern Europe, life expectancy has increased significantly after the fall of Communism. The continued poor situation in Russia and Ukraine has been strongly linked to alcoholism.

(On that social sciences are not falsifiable.) One response is that many social sciences like psychology, economics, and political science are increasingly being tested, for example by statistical methods.

Lenin did state the following:

"The so-called cultural element of Western Europe and America are incapable of comprehending the present state of affairs and the actual balance of forces; these elements must be regarded as deaf-mutes and treated accordingly....

"A revolution never develops along a direct line, by continuous expansion, but from a chain of outbursts and withdrawals, attacks and lulls, during which the revolutionary forces gain strength in preparation for their final victory....

"We must:

"(a) In order to placate the deaf-mutes, proclaim the fictional separation of our government ... from the Comintern, declaring this agency to be an independent political group. The deaf- mutes will believe it.

"(b) Express a desire for the immediate resumption of diplomatic relations with capitalist countries on the basis of complete non-interference in their internal affairs. Again, the deaf- mutes will believe it. They will even be delighted and fling wide-open their doors through which the emissaries of the Comintern and Party Intelligence agencies will quickly infiltrate into these countries disguised as our diplomatic, cultural, and trade representatives.

"Capitalists the world over and their governments will, in their desire to win Soviet market, shut their eyes to the above- mentioned activities and thus be turned into blind deaf-mutes. They will furnish credits, which will serve as a means of supporting the Communist parties in their countries, and, by supplying us, will rebuild our war industry, which is essential for our future attacks on our suppliers. In other words, they will be laboring to prepare their own suicide."(Stalin : The First In-depth Biography Based on Explosive New Documents from Russia's Secret Archives, 1997, Edvard Radzinsky)(The Lufkin News, King Featurers Syndicate, Inc., 31 July 1962, p. 4, as quoted by the Freeman Report, 30 Sept. 1973, p. 8). .

I am perfectly aware of the information that was removed. I have explained all my deletions and other edits in detail. Now it is time for you to explain yours. Please reply to all the points I have made above; if you do not, I will have no choice but to continue reverting. A Google search does indeed show many claims of "Marxist science" - from anti-communists. In this, as in so many cases, you insist on attacking a straw man. Marxists do of course claim that historical materialism is scientific, but not that all Marxism is a science. As for your Lenin quote, it does not appear in any of Lenin's works. It comes from a dubious source and you refuse to give any details surrounding it - such as the name of the secret document in which the quote is supposed to appear, the date of its publication, the subject of the secret document, or the method by which Edvard Radzinsky claims to have obtained it. And, as I have pointed out, your entire section on "useful idiots" is dedicated to citing Western authors who say that communists are idiots. This does not belong in criticisms of communism, but in an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, the reason you give for your bashing of Lenin clearly demonstrates that you fail to understand the concept of NPOV. It is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages to "correct" the "wrong views" that certain readers may hold. Our purpose is to inform the readers of all points of view, not preach one of them.

Your paragraph on social sciences displays a clear lack of understanding of the scientific method. Look into it.

Your two paragraphs on Cuba and Eastern Europe, however, are valid and I will attempt to integrate them in my version of the article. But not before we agree on a general structure, which is the first order of business. Leaving aside the content, do you have any objections to the structure of my version of the article? Yes or no?

And again, I am stressing the fact that I ask you to please reply to all my points above, which were specifically designed to initiate a dialogue. You would be well advised to make a similar list of the nature of your edits and the reasons behind them. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:06, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I have answered your points. It is simply false to say that only anti-communists use "Marxist science", as anyone can see from the Google results. Again, show that the references are wrong, do not delete just because you dislike well referenced historical facts. Ultramarine 05:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. You've answered nothing - not even my simple yes or no question regarding the structure of the article! Long before we get to your historical references, there are many other changes that I made and that you keep removing for no reason. Specifically (and here I quote myself):

"(a) Corrections of structure - "Were the Communist states communist?" was replaced by "Communist critique of Communist states", since that is what it refers to. Marx's predictions, which are part of theory (not practice), and which were done using Historical Materialism, were moved to the section on Historical Materialism. The accusation of pseudoscience, which is also targeted at Historical Materialism (since that is the only part of Marxism that claims the status of science) was also moved to the appropriate section.

(b) Corrections of accuracy - The introduction was expanded to mention that the two kinds of criticisms (against communist states and against theory) are distinct. A header was added in order to point the reader to Criticisms of socialism and explain the purpose of this article. The fact that "communist state" is an oxymoron was mentioned, and a link was provided to the appropriate discussion within the communist state article. The sections on Historical Materialism and the LTV were improved, since you obviously either do not know what communists believe or you are trying to misrepresent those beliefs on purpose.

(c) Corrections of POV - The section on "useful idiots" doesn't even criticize communism at all, it just says that a number of Western right-wingers think that communists are idiots. That would be better suited for an article on pejorative political terms. Finally, a number of your section headings were POV, such as "real-world failures". Failures according to whom? Supporters of communist states certainly don't think they were failures - on the contrary!

And one final note regarding POV: You have the bad habit of sandwiching the opposing POV between two statements that support your POV. In other words, you follow this model:

# Anti-communists say X.

# Communists say Y.

# But anti-communists reply with Z.

This is highly inappropriate, not to mention making it difficult for our readers to follow the article."

As you can plainly see, none of the above has anything to do with your historical references. As for "Marxist science", please check the Encyclopedia of Marxism. I see no mention of "Marxist science", not any mention in the Marxism entry that Marxism as a whole is a science. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 07:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Again, anyone can see from Google that many Marxists use the term "Marxist science". Again, I incorporated the changes to LTV, as you could have seen if you read my text. A critique against Marxist theory should certainly include how it is used in academia. Again, predictions are tested in the real world and thus fall under the real-world section. You are arguing that the examples given were not failures? Ultramarine 07:53, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I could easily argue that the examples given were not failures. Being Romanian, I can argue from personal experience that capitalism has been much more of a failure than "communism". But my opinion is irrelevant, of course - just like yours. If only you understood that, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The point is that the term "failure" is inherently subjective, and thus POV. Regarding Marxist science, it is true that Marxists believe part of Marxism to be a science, but not all of it. I keep trying to explain that. Pejorative terms like "useful idiot" do not represent a critique. Certainly not a critique of communism. Saying "communism is bad because some communists are idiots" is a logical fallacy (ad hominem), even if its two assertions (that communism is bad and that some communists are idiots) are true when taken separately. Plus, your Lenin quote (which is of dubious origin) says that capitalists, not communists, are "idiots". Finally, as a matter of structure, notice that my version of the article contains two main sections entitled "20th century Communist states" and "Marxism and communist theory", respectively. Marx's predictions are certainly not part of the discussion regarding 20th century Communist states. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 08:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Violation of Misplaced Pages policy

Mihnea Tudoreanu, you have violated Misplaced Pages policy by editing my comments. . I have restored them. Ultramarine 18:19, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, all I did was remove the paragraphs you quoted from the article, since, as I explained, "I am perfectly aware of the information that was removed ". I didn't know you considered it so important to have them listed here. I apologise. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:24, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Violation of Misplaced Pages policy

Mihnea Tudoreanu, you have violated Misplaced Pages policy by reverting my version which was the first to use the "Two-version" tag. It states that there should be a consensus on the talk page first. You have also violated policy by removing the template. Ultramarine 07:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

And you have violated wikipedia policy by refusing to even pretend to discuss our dispute on the Talk page. My reverting to an earlier version than my latest one was an obvious mistake (notice I had just added the "Two-version" tag right before your most recent reverts). As you can see, when I make a mistake, I fix it in 10 minutes - which is far more than can be said for you. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 07:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I have shown numerous examples of well-referenced historical facts that you have deleted and answered your other claims. Ultramarine 07:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

First you entirely dismissed, then you barely acknowledged my arguments in a 3-line paragraph. As for your "numerous examples", last time I checked there were only two short paragraphs of them, and I had agreed to start discussing and including them as soon as we reached consensus on the more general issues with the article. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 09:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This is incorrect since my arguments are spread over several paragraphs in different edits. However, I have now incorporated several of your points in my version, see below. Hopefully we can now together in similar good faith include the well-referenced historical facts that are in my version but not in yours. Ultramarine 13:16, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Ultramarine! I have discussed this disingenuous approach to the two-versions tag here: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Ultramarine#Two-versions But it does have a constructive use. See below. Septentrionalis 22:25, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

A compromise

I have already incorporated many of your points in my previous versions. I have now further incorporated some other points in a new version . Thus, I hope we can now together incorporate the many well-established historical facts that are in my version but not in yours. Ultramarine 10:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I have added one argument against my own position. Hopefully this will another sign of good faith.

"Some adherents to the Marxian doctrine of Historical Materialism argue that true communism can only develop as a response to the contradictions of bourgeois capitalism; therefore, the failure of those experiments in communism to date can be attributed to the fact they did not emerge in this manner. In short, some Marxists argue that, in order for a successful socialist revolution to occur, capitalism must first dominate the globe. The Soviet Union is a case in point - Tsarist Russia was quasi-feudal, not capitalist, and was overthrown by a small cadre rather than by a mass revolution. So it is argued by some Marxists that the failure of Soviet socialism to sustain itself is actually an affirmation of Historical Materialism." Ultramarine 13:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. This is encouraging news, and an indication that we may at last be making some progress. Your sign of good faith is very well received, and, as I have stated before, I am more than willing to incorporate the historical facts that are present in your version and not mine. As a source of references for various historical events, I would strongly suggest relying on the Historical Atlas of the 20th century, because it (a) compiles information from many different sources, and (b) it is non-ideological (unlike, say, the Museum of Communism, which is openly libertarian and has an axe to grind). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 10:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

On another note, once we agree on which version to start working with (see below), I propose the following method of editing: We begin with the least controversial issues and work our way up to the most controversial. Also, it is useful to discuss sections or even paragraphs one at a time, so as to avoid "blind reverts" (one attempts to edit or revert something, but, since he's not looking at the rest of the article, ends up reverting an innocent paragraph at the same time). -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 10:46, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Two Versions: a method of merger

There are two versions of this page: one I will call U; the other M.

I propose the following plan: the editors on this page see if there is a consensus for one of the alternatives; choose M as a working basis or choose U as a working basis. If there is, the dissentients be asked to state what they would merge into the consensus version, and the consensus be as generous as possible in admitting these things. I would be happy, for example, if M is the consensus, to admit the rather elegant good-faith paragraph above. On the other hand, if there is a consensus against any item, it should be dropped. At that point the templates may be able to go too.

Opinions in the following straw-poll should be brief and civil. I have tried to set an example. Septentrionalis

Straw Poll

Chooose M as a working basis

1. Because it contains so much neutral stuff (like the last sentence of M's intro, or the chronology of Socialist Realism), that I would be adding back in anyway. Septentrionalis 23:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
2. Because M was actually based on U. After all, M was an attempt to radically improve U and make it NPOV. I do not think we should roll back the clock. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 10:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Choose U as a working basis

I object to this poll

End poll

_______________________________ Septentrionalis 23:04, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

First section

Once we agree on the version to use as our working basis, we will discuss here the first section of the article. Watch this space. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 10:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The facts

I think we should discuss the actual facts instead of declaring one version to be a "working basis". What are the objections to the referenced data presented in my version? I will remove the templates claiming factual inaccuracy and original research unless specific counter-examples are given. Ultramarine 12:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I endorsed M largely because it contains almost all of U. What else would you like to include? Please list here.

However, Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. I will oppose changes intended to advocate anti-Communism (or Communism) on that ground alone. Septentrionalis 14:50, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

We're not so much opposed to what you present as we are opposed to how you present it, Ultramarine. Please list here the facts you want to add to my version (a bulleted list would suffice) and I will go and add them. If one fact is controversial, we can discuss it. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

List of proposed changes

We can begin with this, lets take them one at a time. State if you agree or explain why it it inaccurate.

Also pointed out is the environmental disasters. One is the gradual disappearance of the Aral Sea and the Caspian Sea because of the diversion of the rivers that fed them. Another the pollution of the Black Sea, the Baltic Sea, and the unique freshwater environment of Lake Baikal. Many of the rivers were polluted; several were virtually ecologically dead. In 1988 only 20% of the sewage was treated properly. Established health standards for air pollution was exceeded by ten times or more in 103 cities in the Soviet Union in 1988. The air pollution problem was even more severe in Eastern Europe. It caused lung cancer, forest die-back, and damage to buildings and cultural heritages. According to official sources, 58 percent of total agricultural land of the former Soviet Union was affected by salinization, erosion, acidity, or waterlogging. Nuclear waste was dumped in the Sea of Japan, the Arctic Ocean, and in locations in the Far East. It was revealed in 1992 that in the city of Moscow there were 636 radioactive toxic waste sites and 1,500 in St. Petersburg. . Ultramarine 15:00, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Take a look here: . I've added your paragraph in a slightly modified and NPOV-ed form. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC) Basically, I have removed the "many rivers were polluted" part, since that is generic and could be true of any industrialized country, and added a possible communist counter-argument. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

You have removed "One is the gradual disappearance of the Aral Sea and the Caspian Sea because of the diversion of the rivers that fed them." and "Many of the rivers were polluted; several were virtually ecologically dead" You claim that the pollution continued similarly after the fall of communism. Give source. You also claim that the rivers argument is invalid because it could also be true in the West. Please do not guess; give source stating that this is true. Ultramarine 15:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Look again; the gradual dissapearence of the Aral Sea was already mentioned. Regarding the continued pollution, I don't have to give a source - I live in a former communist country. I will look for sources if you insist (since it should be easy to find some), but I'd appreciate it if you did not turn this article into a swiss cheese of external links. Finally, are you implying that river pollution doesn't happen in the West?

This is going to be far more tedious than I thought. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 15:37, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Caspian sea was excluded. You do have to give a source, your particular experience says nothing about the whole of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Some pollution has happened in the West but not so that the rivers are dead. Ultramarine 15:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

As I expected, finding sources was easy: . The years of neglect after the fall of the Soviet Union have made many ecological problems worse. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:01, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

And capitalist Romania's record in river pollution is worse than dismal. Just 5 years ago, a massive cyanide spill caused by a private mining company in Romania ended up killing all life in the Tisza river and massively polluting the Danube: -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Finally, I was not aware that the Caspian sea was in any danger of "dissapearing" - it's still the world's largest inland body of water, is it not? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

One of your sources is ten years old and says nothing about the situation today, the others mention some specific problems and not the general situation. However, we can certainly add that problems has continued in some countries, but has improved greatly in some, like Poland. Regarding the Caspian Sea, it is 15 years since the fall of Communism, is it not? Ultramarine 16:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Let us complete the merger befor arguing over points of detail. That's what {{dubious}} tags: are for. The present text says: "The most cited example is the disappearance of the Aral Sea in today's Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, which is believed to have been caused by the diversion of the waters of its two affluent rivers for cotton production." I am going to add "The Caspian sea has also been diminishing." If either of you disagrees with that sentence, put on a dubious tag and we can look up area statistics later. Septentrionalis 17:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

As for "Many of the rivers were polluted; several were virtually ecologically dead":the first clause is obvious from what has been said, the second a classic instance of weasel wording. (And has Ultramarine considered Lake Erie?} If it is included, I will not revert it, but I will dispute it. In any case, we cannot include all the enviromental problems of the Soviet Union; that's another article. Septentrionalis 17:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Please continue previous good factual discussion. There is certainly no agreement on any non-existing Misplaced Pages policy regarding "working basis". Ultramarine 17:41, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, there is an agreement on this article by 2/3 majority. Shall we continue with the merger? Septentrionalis 18:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

There is no Misplaced Pages rule about 2/3 majority in cases like this, there should be consensus. If you try to do any "merger", I will ask for protection of this page, using my version. Ultramarine 19:02, 23 July 2005 (UTC)