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Arbitrators active on this case

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Procedural question on recusal

I see that various users have called for Morven to recuse based on hostile comments he has made surrounding this issue on outside forums, such as Wikbak, and due to the fact he was subscribed to the underground Wikia.com mail list wpCyberstalking list along with Mantanmoreland. I don't have any opinion myself anymore, and have redacted my own agreement with the recall request on my original opening comment. I really don't feel like taking part in this epic mess since I'm frankly burned out on my current Waterboarding RFAR and need a break in general. This one technical point got me curious, however, as it's a related to the various heated arguments in the IRC case.

My question is, since the Arbitration Committee and Jimbo Wales are only empowered by the goodwill of the community, does the community theoretically have the ability to enforce recusal, if enough established users called for an Arbiter to sit out a case? I understand there is no precedent for this, but I ask as the Committee only has any authority because the community lets them. Lawrence § t/e 00:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

See here. The decision to recuse is by policy left to the individual Arbitrator, and there is no other established method for requesting/enforcing a recusal (See WP:Arbitration policy). Avruch 00:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That is to say, the policy would need to be changed by consensus in order to create a new method for forcing recusal. Avruch 00:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well yes, I saw that, but I asked here afterwards as the community can change anything it wants to outside the Foundation level (but that can be changed as well, since the community can always scrub the entire Foundation Board with an election or two). The community controls everything and anything in the end. Lawrence § t/e 00:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Not so. For a start, the english wikipedia community is not the sum of the wikimedia community, so watch how you use the word "community". Second, WMF has core purposes, which cannot be votes out of existence. Anyway, that's pretty irrelevant to the question of recusal. I'm sure that a consensus of arbs, or the intervention of Jimbo could compel a recusal if they wished to. However, in fact, I doubt they would.--Doc 00:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The clerk, Rlevse, has told me that the procedure for requesting recusal is to first ask the individual arbitrator, which I have done . If the arbitrator refuses, which Morven has done , then I'm supposed to take the request to another arbitrator, which I have done . NewYorkBrad then replies that there is currently no way to force an arbitrator to recuse themselves. Cla68 (talk) 00:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me clarify my statement. Sorry for the confusion. There is no set policy here. I advised Cla68 using standard wiki policies, ie, approach the person directly first and politely ask. Then use other means, which here would logically be ask another arb and/or send to the arb mail list. To me this makes sense and gives the requestor (Cla68 here) a means of "appeal" if the requestee (Morven here) does not respond or does not grant the request. It may be arbcom needs a formal policy on this, I'm not sure, but it'd probably be akin to what I outlined I expect if they did come up with one. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the question will probably come up again, so a formal process probabaly should be established. Yet another forum requiring the arbitrators to respond to. Cla68 (talk) 02:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I will state that should more than one other Arbitrator ask or advise or suggest that I reconsider and recuse, I will do so. This applies to all cases, not just this one. However, there are no rules that compel this. No arbitrator has yet made such a suggestion.

Note that I am at a convention from tomorrow through Monday night, and will not be editing Misplaced Pages nor reading my email during this time. Just FYI so nobody thinks I'm ignoring them. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment

First of all, my apologies if this consideration has been noted before.

One thing for arbitrators to consider when proposing remedies is how to avoid endorsing the methods Judd Bagley (WordBomb) has been utilizing. If the committee determines the Mantanmoreland and Samiharris accounts belong to the same individual (regardless of whether it is Gary Weiss or not), I think it should take care to make clear that the way Bagley has been pursuing the issue is, well, not the ideal way to expose sockpuppetry.

But that brings up another issue - what is the ideal way for this sort of allegation to be made? Would this case have even come about if Bagley hadn't been pursuing it from Misplaced Pages Review and his website? Would SirFozzie have compiled his evidence subpage and filed this request if he hadn't been reading Bagley's posts on that site? If not for the wealth of offsite evidence in addition to what WordBomb listed at the checkuser request, would checkusers have taken Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Samiharris seriously? It is disturbing to consider that this sockpuppetry could have continued for even longer if not for Bagley's tactics. I think we need a better way for people to make credible sockpuppetry allegations against established editors without fear of retribution (note the credible requirement). I doubt a proposed decision could address all of this, but it's something to keep in mind. Picaroon (t) 02:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree there are some very large challenges to the project to come out of this, but it starts by not ignoring the real abuses going on (by all sides of this and other disputes). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 02:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Good thoughts from both of you. Getting to the root of any systemic corruption and exposing problematic editors is a good thing. Maybe the transparency found at other objective sources is a great thing, in the final analysis. Anonymous editing can lead to a kind of trouble that passes all understanding. Like a Rainbow (talk) 22:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Heard a rumor...

The word is that you might start posting proposals in the next few hours. I really hope that's true. The talk pages seem to have jumped the shark (several times, in fact), and I doubt many people will read the whole workshop, now pushing 500k. I certainly haven't.

I just want to know if the arbitrators need any more evidence in particular, so I'm eagerly anticipating your findings of fact. Good night. Cool Hand Luke 06:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Waiting on an arbcom decision is similar to waiting for a US jury verdict. Since we can't see their deliberations, we can't tell how close they are to reaching a decision. I expect that they'll start posting some findings soon. Cla68 (talk) 06:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment on the proposed decision

My approach to the proposed decision attempts to reflect a consensus of several arbitrators rather than solely my own views as the arbitrator posting the draft. And please see the second paragraph under United States v. One Book Entitled Ulysses by James Joyce#Appeal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

if there's nothing about the MM/GW/SH connection, the order of the day is apparently whitewash. brad, I have a LOT of respect for you, but if there's not going to be anything about the connection, then ArbCom has wasted a lot of people's time and lived up to the stereotype that others have placed on it. SirFozzie (talk) 03:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention ignoring the overwhelming consensus on the RfC and in the comments on the evidence that came to light in the arbitration case. Viridae 03:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. The majority of the arbcom' (ie, the ones who don't have blinkers on) believe that they are socks, but a two-time sockpuppeter (and let's not forget the double votes, and double participatiopn in previous arbcom cases) shouldn't get anything more then told if he edits that article any MORE that he has to establish his COI? This is nothing more than a whitewash, and gives the folks who trash us evidence that they are exactly what they say we are. SirFozzie (talk) 03:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I am going to do my best to let the decision speak for itself, and allow time for the other arbitrators to comment, but commenters need to focus on the principles established and the remedies enacted (some of which are novel) in addition to a specific finding that some may find not strong enough and others may find too strong. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the case pages there is a handful of people who will find the proposed decision too strong. But the vast majority of those people involved in this case will find it an abhorent copout that does ntohing to address the core problems that brought this case to hand or even touch on the impressively strong suite of evidence that has been presented, notwithstanding the lack of solid CU results (and more impressive because of that). Viridae 03:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm very surprised if ArbCom would turn the use of open proxies into such a defense. I assumed references to the narrow scope of ArbCom indicated that it would acknowledge the violations of policy as it would in any case, but that outside parties should not assume this was some sort of legal conviction. To say that two accounts assessed by the vast majority of commenters to be sockpuppets based on overwhelming evidence are nevertheless invincible because they use open proxies does not seem like a helpful development. In more normal circumstances, I don't think ArbCom would have any problem stating that significant evidence of sockpuppetry combined with the use of open proxies is blockable of itself. Mackan79 (talk) 04:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

My initial thought is that I would be fine with the decision if WordBomb is unblocked and allowed to edit the articles on equal terms. This would suggest that the Committee has come to the conclusion that personalizing the dispute does not work. Otherwise, I can't see why the ArbCom would disregard the evidence, including the community consensus expressed in the RfC. Mackan79 (talk) 03:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

In this case a more cautious and conservative standard was needed, due to confounding issues discussed internally by the Committee. Although the evidence is respected and was extremely carefully reviewed, the most that can be said by consensus in this most bitter case is "suggestive but not confirmed"., or in other words, that because this case is so divisive, we need a completely impossible standard of evidence (I mean, look at all the work that went into this, it's not enough???), apparently, to at least some members of the ArbCom, we'd need a video of person A logging into account's B and C right after each other.. oh wait.. that would be inadmissible because it was stalking, right? SirFozzie (talk) 04:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

My greatest worry here is that the proposed decision adds up to a green light for vote stacking. For an experienced editor, creating hard-to-catch sockpuppets isn't all that difficult. One of the things that keeps the regulars honest has been the knowledge that the abuse would be handled firmly when the day of reckoning came. Yes, I'm thinking of Runcorn and a few other instances. But if the only downside becomes a stern talking-to and instructions not to do it again, then what's to stop the problem from becoming widespread? Durova 04:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Durova. This is a green light to sensitive sockpuppet vote stacking by established users. I'm very disappointed. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

New evidence

Just want to mention that I posted new evidence after the Proposed Decision began to be released and voted upon. As it addresses one of the defenses that Mantanmoreland proffered (i.e., that Samiharris's similar style was a form of mimicry), I hope that the Arbcom will give it due consideration despite the lateness of its arrival. alanyst 04:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Standard of evidence

Does this mean that we can never block any sock puppets without a positive CU result? Only the uninformed and the unindustrious get caught by CU. If this is not your intended result, please add a clarifying principle to the case to explain the extreme discrepancy between the sock puppetry evidence standard used here and the one that we normally use. The cleverest puppetmasters will cite this case to make our work difficult over at WP:SSP (which is heavily backlogged at the moment, please consider helping). Thanks. Jehochman 04:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

External disputes, definitions, and unattainable standards

• It would be helpful if the arbitrators would be more clear on what they consider an "external dispute" in this case. While we all know the whole WR/Wordbomb/Gary Weiss blog stuff would clearly fit in, it is important to note that there is another external dispute happening which is being reported in the financial media on a fairly regular basis. That dispute involves Patrick Byrne and others including Gary Weiss and relates to the entire concept of naked short selling. Given the media attention on that particular dispute, it is very difficult to imagine that the articles identified in this decision can meet Misplaced Pages standards for completeness and accuracy without some mention of that dispute. Unfortunately, some of those same reliable sources have touched upon the other aspects that are, shall we say, more interpersonal. I did ask a couple of friends who are active in this field to look at the naked short selling article, and they felt it was completely inadequate, so I hope that editors knowledgeable in this field will now feel they have the support of the Arbcom to go in and clean up the related articles.

• I am concerned that Arbcom has now established an unattainable standard for sockpuppetry investigations. Thousands of editors have been blocked with far, far less evidence in the past. Checkuser is a wonderful tool, but it is well known to have certain weaknesses, and this particular case may well have given truly malicious sockpuppeters a whole new set of tools to use in evading blocks and bans.

• Finally, I think Arbcom needs to flesh out some form of definition of "serious violations." There is a terrible tendency for the community to take Arbcom decisions and apply them as if they are policy. Unfortunately, with 1500 admins, there are 1500 definitions of incivility, of NPA and of terms such as "serious violations." This is not a criticism of our admins, but it is indeed a reason for Arbcom to be crystal clear in its meaning. The committee tends to have to go back and re-address the same issues over and over because it has not clearly delineated the expectations and limits of its decisions.
  

--Risker (talk) 04:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• • I'll respond to your questions in order, though I can only speak for me:
    • There is, of course, no prohibition against mentioning the Weiss/Byrne dispute in these articles. If (and only if) editors conclude that the real-world controversy is notable and covered in reliable sources, it should be included. What is prohibited is advocacy for any side in connection with the dispute, i.e., importing the dispute itself to Misplaced Pages, as opposed to neutral encyclopedic coverage of the dispute.
    • The concern about raising the bar in sockpuppet cases is a legitimate one and I don't believe we are attempting to create a new standard to be quoted in every sock case. In fact, to the extent we are considering establishing a standard, it is the one mentioned in the proposed principles. More important, the draft decision in this case should be read as a whole, including the restrictions on editors of the subject articles that will affect the named parties to the case along with everyone else—a fact overlooked in the assessments of the draft I have seen to this point. If all editors abide by the remedies, then the problems associated with this entire suite of problems will abate. If editors do not abide by the remedies, then administrators or if necessary the committee will enforce them.
    • The term "serious violations" is used twice, once in connection with whether a warning should be given before a block, and once in connection with what types of future behavior should be reported to the committee. My personal preference in any context is to warn first rather than block if there is a reasonable choice between them, and to keep the committee more rather than less informed in a situation of this degree of contentiousness.
    • Hope this helps, and thanks for your comments. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, NYB. The clarification on what level of content relating to the external disputes may be included is very valuable, and I propose that it be included on the talk page of the involved articles, so that "fresh eyes" will have the benefit of that guidance.

I believe Principle #4 (Evaluating sockpuppetry) really needs to have more flesh on its bones to clarify the position of the Committee, which is clearly not on the same page as the community in this specific case. I recognise that the Arbitration Committee, as an official body of Misplaced Pages, is constrained in ways that the editing community is not, and thus cannot put into writing some things that the community can say without fear of repercussion from external sources. Having said that, identifying right in the principle that this is an exceptional case and should not be considered the "gold standard" for future sockpuppetry investigations involving established users would be extremely helpful for those who serve the encyclopedia by investigating such cases.

Likewise, the term "serious violations" really does need to be fleshed out. What does it include? I can easily see some (not all) administrators blocking if an editor makes so much as a suggestion that another editor has a COI or may be a sockpuppet. I remain concerned that several of the editors involved in this case will perceive that they have no conflict of interest, or that admins who have carried out blocks or protections in the past will not recognize that they are "involved." In order for these articles to attain the expected level of quality, knowledgeable editors who have never touched them need to be involved. Those editors need some reassurance that they will not get whacked for cleaning up this mess. Risker (talk) 05:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The sense of the Committee

Arbcom, please reverse direction on the style of the proposed decision. I would rather see specific and detailed findings of fact, principles, and remedies with each Arbcom member supporting, opposing, or abstaining—even if the Committee is hopelessly divided—than a vague mostly-unanimous "sense of the Committee" like what has started to appear. Each Arbcom member should be willing to take public responsibility for her or his own opinion, even if outnumbered or unpopular or wary of provoking more drama. To draw an analogy (acknowledging the differences between SCOTUS and Arbcom), I'd rather see a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court decision with the opinion and dissent both cogently argued, than a unanimous opinion that states little more than "we acknowledge the existence of the dispute and we'd like to see it resolved." I believe I speak not only for myself in this regard. alanyst 04:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Absoloute, 110% support for this. Was going to say the same. Viridae 04:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to sound defensive here, but I believe the intent of the committee—certainly, mine—was to address this situation with forward-looking remedies that (per my comment to Risker above) would solve the problems if all users abide by them, and would be enforced by administrators or if necessary by the committee if users fail to abide by them. Those alleging, for example, that the articles in question are "controlled" by conflicted users should welcome the COI disclosure remedy, which to my knowledge is novel. This case is not simply about whether one user sockpuppeted abusively or not, though I certainly have my own personal opinion on that issue. I spent a fair amount of time (as did other arbitrators who commented on the draft) honing principles and remedies, not just the finding that many are saying is too vague. I don't at present see why that approach is being seen as an illegitimate approach to resolving a dispute of this gravity, and would welcome input on this issue as it may affect how I approach future cases.

On the other hand, to perpetuate the U.S. Supreme Court analogy, the next time I draft a controversial decision I am styling it per curiam. :) Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It isn't particularly forward-looking to raise the bar for sockpuppet abuse. Any experienced editor knows how to do it. Most don't because they're honest. Most of the rest haven't because they thought there would be serious consequences. Suppose five percent of experienced editors ran extra accounts to get a boost of support in important discussions? Suppose ten percent did? Suppose fifteen? Durova 05:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Durova's right. We don't need per curium decisions in this narrow case, we need to know how the next case should be handled. Please stand for something. Cool Hand Luke 05:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you mean about concern for future cases. I will give everyone's points some more thought. But I hope that there will never, ever, ever have to be another case at all like this one. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

you and me, both! *laughs* SirFozzie (talk) 05:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that's the one point that meets unanimous agreement. Durova 05:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

On a project where we allow anonymous editing, and offer no sanctions for sockpuppetry—as this draft does not—there's absolutely no incentive for editors not to set up socks. If you let this stand, this will be the beginning, not the end. Cool Hand Luke 05:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Brad, are you signalling with these proposals that you're limiting the scope of the case to only Mantanmoreland's sockpuppetry and a vaguely described off-wiki dispute and leaving out Mantanmoreland's POV-pushing, personal attacks, and inappropriate support from admins? Cla68 (talk) 05:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)