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Software: Computing

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Article milestones Date Process Result January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Kept February 26, 2004 Featured article review Demoted January 10, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted December 29, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 27, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed February 14, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed October 16, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed Current status: Former featured article

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Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64

To-do: E · H · W · RUpdated 2022-03-27 Summarize the sections by cutting down on detail, which can be moved to the main articles specific to those sections. Combine related sections and cut down on ToC Better organization of pictures Provide more references Add effect on Northern Virginia, as the attack on the Pentagon occurred there. Priority 1 (top)

Template:WP1.0

Template:FAOL

archive 38

Archive 38 has a few pieces which are still relevant for the active discussion. I am listing them here.

1. Talk:September_11,_2001_attacks/Archive_38#NFSM
2. Talk:September_11,_2001_attacks/Archive_38#list

 — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 16:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it a bit?

Isn't it a little late to protect September 11, 2001 attacks? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.101.81 (talk • contribs) 20:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Cute; but, no — the article is protected due to persistent vandalism. --Haemo (talk) 20:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

What idiot would vandalize this article? 84.13.101.81 (talk) 20:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The list is (at least has been) endless. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy theorists ROUTINELY vandalize this article and, at times, the talk pages, disrupting the presentation of factual scientific information that has reliable sources. (And they call themselves the "truth" movement. heh.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.204.49.76 (talk) 04:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sneha Anne Philip

Bringing to everyone's attention this news, which has a small effect on the death totals for the day. I am reticent to change the numbers myself, because I cannot seem to make all the numbers fit. The September11victims.com site has apparently removed one victim from Flight 11 since it was last consulted for reference in Sept. 2007, bringing the total number of victims out of line with what is provided here even before the news of the court's decision regarding Ms. Philip. It strikes as odd that the site should do this. Someone with a longer history of involvement and knowledge in the minutiae of this topic should be careful to recheck the numbers. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 18:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

9/11 Conspiracy Theories name change

Since it's a subarticle of this article, I thought it would be sensible to note that there is (yet another) move proposal at Talk:9/11 conspiracy theories to change the title of the article to 9/11 alternative theories or 9/11 non-mainstream theories. Since this affects how we name the sections in this article, editors here should take note. --Haemo (talk) 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm just curious... why wouldn't citing "WP:NAME:Use common names of persons and things" take care of this immediately? These concepts are obviously most commonly known as conspiracy theories.71.204.49.76 (talk) 05:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Good question, and the only answer I have is that nothing takes care of debates immediately on Misplaced Pages. Okiefromokla 05:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree the section should be named "Alternate 9/11 theories" or "Alternate Perspectives" since the word "conspiracy" implies they can be proven wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Work Cited (References) vs. Bibliography (and footnotes)

I think the reference section is great, however this article should have a bibliography. According to www.aresearchguideforstudents.com, who based there MLA style on the authoritative publication from the Modern Language Association of America, (Gibaldi, Joseph. MLA Handbook. 6th ed. New York: MLA, 2003.), there are differences between a bibliography and a works cited. It is stated that "In Works Cited you only list items you have actually cited. In a Bibliography you list all of the material you have consulted in preparing your essay whether or not you have actually cited the work." I would like to see all the works that where used for writting this article. This means any information that was removed, along with there said "reference". should be placed in the bibliography.

Secondely, according to this same article our References are not properly formated. They should be placed in alphabetical order. It is stated that "All references are placed in ONE ALPHABETICAL LIST by first words of citations, regardless of where citations come from." Currently I believe what we have are footnotes. Hence the reason I have or will change the name from reference to footnotes.. (Also refer to The MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers 6th edition by Joseph Gibaldi, Appendix B.1, pp. 298-313 for additional detailed instructions on footnotes.)(Or this paper here). --CyclePat (talk) 14:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

MLA standards are not applicable to Misplaced Pages. We have our own set of standards here: WP:MOS. -- MisterHand (Talk to the Hand|Contribs) 15:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello MisterHand, thank you for the link. You are right... Misplaced Pages does have its "own set of standards." However, the above statement: "MLA standards are not applicable to Misplaced Pages", is wrong. It is contradicted by WP:CITE#HOW which states "...Any style or system is acceptable on Misplaced Pages so long as articles are internally consistent..." Also, wikipedia has what I believe is called "concensus" rule. I would like to point out that Misplaced Pages:Citing sources and Misplaced Pages:Footnotes, appear to concur with my aforementioned statement regarding proper formatting. You may also infer from my previous statement that the status quo does not represent MLA standards or, for the matter of fact, "our own set of standards here: WP:MOS" --CyclePat (talk) 16:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Individual references may be coded using MLA standards, but the reference list is written using our standards, which are different from the MLA standards. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Can we please work on adding a proper reference (work cited) section and bibliography. Having a bibliography would not only be an important element to know what resources where read (but not used), but may help maintain an NPOV article via allowing independant research on various points and presenting what most of our editors have read. --CyclePat (talk) 14:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You have a strange idea as to what a bibliography is. It's not in keeping with our WP:MOS, nor the MLA standards, to have a list of books generally relevant to the topic with page numbers. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Arthur, that's correct, as you stated, "It's not in keeping with our MOS...". That's because MOS does not specifically address this issue. As I have stated, you must look into WP:Citing sources and WP:Footnotes. Specifically, MOS makes reference to these important guidelines. Once you find these sub-guidelines, in particular Misplaced Pages:Citing sources#Provide page numbers, you may find the statements that recommend we provide page numbers. In short: By example: If you've read the entire book then put all the page numbers... if you didn't, then add the page numbers or chapters. ex. : "The Green Apple. pp.504-512, 565-680, etc..." My thoughts on a bibliography are reflected by the authoritative facts Modern Language Association of America as referenced by www.aresearcheguide.com, hence I believe it is wrong to state that this is "not in keeping with... the MLA standards, to have a list of books... with page numbers." As per common teaching practice in schools for writing essays... In short: If you read a certain book, and you contribute to this article, even if it's a fact that is not listed, is later removed, or whatever, that book should be listed somehow. (Whether it be on a separate page called September 11, 2001 attacks (section)/Bibliography (because of the possibility of extreme length or incorporated within the article) An added benefit to this bibliography is that if someone read more pages from a book or resource then the bibliography could be updated to reflect the information that was already read. This in turn will help editors determine if the information they want to include may not have already been included, removed or discussed for removal. Hence this method could help reduce possible conflicts. --CyclePat (talk) 17:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a substantial change from what our guidelines request, or suggest is necessary. You might want to bring it up there, instead. --Haemo (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Haemo, We may be correct regarding the original request (ie.: alphabetical order, bibliography, references, vs work cited, etc...) On the secondary issues (ie.: the page number in the references) this issue is fairly well documented in our wikipedia policies or guidelines. Thank you for the advice on bringing some of these issues (perhaps one of them) to the "guidleines request". --CyclePat (talk) 17:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Page numbers in the references seem necessary (although the tag would not be near where the work would need to be done.) Page numbers in lists of reference works (you've redefined "bibliography" since I wrote my comment about it) are clearly inappropriate. And your definition of "bibliography" is impossible for a Misplaced Pages article, as most editors don't keep track of their sources for background information. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thinking about it, your definition of "bibliography" is impossible in the academic context, as well. NO ONE lists all the books they use for background information on an article. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

"If you read a certain book, and you contribute to this article, ... that book should be listed somehow." is not sensible in any context that I can think of. If that's a quote from the MLA, we may need to consider rejecting more of their recommendations. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Arthur, it appears as though we are both on the defensive. This is understandable given the fact that our recent statements are contradictory. Now that I think about it, I must agree with you in part. Take a look at the various definitions of bibliography. None of them are quite consistent asides from the fact that a bibliography is a list of sources. However, it is important to find an authorative source. Yes! Some may argue that a bibliography is "The list of works cited by an author..." (at type of work cited) and others may say the opposite. The opposite is supported by the fact that it can be defined as "a list of the works referred to in a text or consulted by the author in its production." (bibliography)

Obviously, I believe in the later, since my school of thought has been that a bibliography is "related in some way" with all the information that has been consulted or is the "list of sources used in the preparation of academic work." Hence adding the page numbers of the pages consulted would not be out of line. Furthermore, I would like to point out, that this is not my "Strange idea of a bibliography" but one which, if I clearly remember, was advocated and thought through school. (i.e: Telling us to place the various chapters or page numbers which we have read in alphabetical order... and also having a work cited with specific passage cited.)

The template I placed in the article earlier Template:Pagenumbers, was placed above the book section. This template in of itself substantiates this idea requiring page numbers but do take a look at the bold text above. This point, I believe we agree upon. Correct? In short: For the books section we should place the pages that where consulted. For the work cited (or references as we now have), I believe, where applicable we must place the specific page number of the citation. (Where applicable (This appears to be supported by .)(I'm going to buy the book! And I'll get back to you with an official authorative answer on that though) Finally, again, for the Bibliography we place the pages consulted, because that's the way it's always been done for essays and my recommendations may be inferred through the previously mentioned sources as well as the information on what a "bibliography is" found through MLA.org with their example of the MLA International bibliography.) --CyclePat (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I believe the books section should contain those chapters or sections believed to be relevant, rather than those actually consulted. (Page numbers may depend on the format (hardcover, paperback, "trade paperback", etc.), which most editors will forget to record.) After all, one may have to read through a book to find the relevant sections. I still say that those sections of a work read or even read while researching the article are not appropriate for inclusion. I would note also that our < ref> templates do not seem to allow placing the references in alphabetical, or even in "first reference" order if you consider the ref name= options. A "bibliography", in the sense of sections read, is not appropriate in the case of multiple editors who may be loons less rational than ourselves. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it a sad commentary on our recent debates that I find this section more intresting to read than the entirity of the previous few months? --Tarage (talk) 03:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

At least it's about improving the article, which is a surprising and welcome change. --Golbez (talk) 04:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Good point. It's the wrong venue, though, although I'm not entirely sure where the right venue is.... WT:CITE? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 08:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, WP:CITE is the most relevant guideline, I believe. This is a MOS change which goes way further than what we, as editors of a single page, have the authority to implement. --Haemo (talk) 21:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Heart of NPOV (3)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This continues from the archived section

• archive 38#NPOV / missing facts (2)
  • archive 38#(subsection to make editing easier) ; defining consensus|#defining consensus
  • archive 38#(subsection to make editing easier) ; agree to disagree|#agree to disagree
  • archive 38#(subsection to make editing easier) ; fact picking|#fact picking
  • archive 38#(subsection to make editing easier) ; pledge / further discussion|#pledge / further discussion
  • archive 38#back to the heart (section break to make editing easier)|#back to the heart
  • archive 38#back to the heart (2)

Related: Wikipedia_talk:NPOV.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 13:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

PTR, you ask for a concrete proposal for textual change to discuss. I will oblige, but am reluctant to do so, because I see no point in this, as long as Heamo and others believe we should not include facts even when reported once by RS, but no longer deemed very important by those same RS. So, here is such a fact which I would like included:

A passport of one of the hijackers was reported found intact near the WTC. Rescue workers sifting through the tons of rubble earlier discovered a passport belonging to one of the suspected hijackers a few blocks from where the World Trade Center's twin towers once stood.A passerby picked it up and gave it to a NYPD detective shortly before the World Trade Center towers collapsed.

This fact was then paramount in gaining acceptance for the claim that the attack was done by Al Qaeda. The existence of these reports is undisputed. Why is it not in the article?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 13:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Not everything can be included in the main article which is why there are sub articles. This fact is already included in the Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 attacks which this article links to. --PTR (talk) 19:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. You're right, some minor facts belong in subarticles. But facts in subarticles are not balancing this article. Each article on Misplaced Pages must be balanced in itself. The NPOV article does not prescribe to balance POV articles with counter POV articles. So I would like this fact included. The news travelled the world then, it cannot have lost its significance now.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ 20:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

There should then be some reliable sources that discuss the finding of the passport in more depth than just that it was found. Do you have any more sources on this? --PTR (talk) 01:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

See below  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Haemo, I propose the following reasoning: (let me know if you want me to address more specific any of the five points you made )

• We (Misplaced Pages) only include those facts which have been reported by RS.
• RS have reported on the existence of a minority view, let's label it B. (This view is indeed mentioned in the article.)
• We (Misplaced Pages) are to remain neutral: not engage in the debate, but describe it.
• RS are themselves expressing their view (A), presuming it is the truth.
• Nor they, nor you have, to my knowledge, offered a final proof that "A" is the truth.
• It was claimed it is not up to us to decide whether "A" is true or not.
• We need a way to agree on how to balance the presenting of facts.
• Views should be attributed. This holds for the majority RS view as well as the minority view.
• For practicle purposes, I can agree to not using "alleged" and "according" in every other sentence of the article, it would make it ugly to read, and I would like the article to read pleasantly as it does now. But to compensate, it should be made clear in the beginning of the article that the article is describing a view in stead of an unchallenged account of factual events, which it sort of suggests in its current form.

Haemo's view that we are to omit any fact which is not deemed important by RS (who themselves hold view A) is not acceptable to me, when these facts could shine a new light on view A. Selective omission distorts the balance of the article in favor of a single view. We rely on RS for our facts, but not for unattributed opinions, and therefore not for fact selection. So we need to reach consensus unaided.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 13:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

But when you say that selective omission distorts the balance of the article, you forget the other side of the coin which is selective inclusion also distorts the balance of the article...which is the problem here. It's true that we should be describing debates and not participating, but in this case there really isn't a debate. There's a small group of people claiming that some conspiracy or another was the real cause of the events, but no one is engaging them in a debate about it. In other words, there's no public conversation/debate about what really happened, no political debate...no mainstream debate among scholars, civil engineers or architects. There's no debate among those expert reliable sources that we draw content from...the coverage that exists is limited to a description of a cultural artifact and doesn't go beyond that.

Misplaced Pages's job is to describe the truth as reliable sources see it, and to describe the debate/discussion of that truth among experts. But it's not our job or obligation to include every POV when describing something. RxS (talk) 17:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I had not forgotten that we cannot include all facts; we have to reach consensus which facts to include, in what balance. You are partially right as far as I'm concerned. I agree that selective inclusion could distort neutrality. When an article is Neutral point of view, subsequent inclusion can distort it. When an article is biased by point of view to begin with, inclusion can correct it. You are right that the Reliable sources are not debating among each other. They are debating "outsiders". They hold view A; the outsiders (without exception all of them non-reliable sources) are holding views B. And wikipedia should be impartial (perspective C), not follow the Reliable sources.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 20:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Not follow the RS? ... I believe you're looking for Unencyclopedia. Okiefromokla 20:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The Reliable sources are good for Verifiability but not for Neutral point of view.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 20:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Nothing can be published in Misplaced Pages without a reliable source to back it up. This is a very simple concept. Providing disjointed factoids (yes, even reliably sourced factoids) in a manner which encourages readers to synthesize a non reliably-sourced conclusion is no better than including a synthesis itself. If a reliable source existed to link these things together then it might have been worth noting; but if one does not then it cannot be included, plain and simple. ~ S0CO 20:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Jc-S0CO, I am wondering, are you saying that the Reliable sources are following Neutral point of view in regard to alleged government involvement in 9/11 ? (In case the RS are not following Misplaced Pages guidelines, should we not depart from their approach?)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

(deindent) I'm just going to restate this, because apparently you still don't understand our guidelines. We rely on reliable sources for telling us which facts are verifiable, and which reported facts are relevant to the subject. The onus is not on us to evaluate, as you say, whether or not they have "proven" that the facts they report are relevant, or what-have-you. Misplaced Pages is not a venue for original research. To put it bluntly:

• Editorial evaluation of the "proof" or veracity of a reported facts expressed by reliable sources is original research.
• Editorial evaluation, without reliable sources to support it, of which facts are relevant to a subject is original research.
• The inclusion of facts which you, and no reliable source, believe undermine the "mainstream account" of the events on this page is original research.
• Judging facts as relevant to a subject, simply because they are published is both wrong, and original research. Simply because a fact is published — for instance, the number of windows in WTC7 — does not make it relevant to a subject unless a reliable source makes the connection before we as editors do.
• The entire purpose of all non-experimental sciences (and even in some situations experimental science) is first the decision of which facts are, and are not, relevant to a given topic, then the addition of those facts into a cohesive whole. You are arguing that Misplaced Pages editors usurp that first role and perform original research on this, and any other article.

Including facts, opinions, events, etc. which are reported on solely because, as you say "these facts could shine a new light on view A" yet, as you say are "not deemed important by RS" is original research, and that's what's unacceptable, and why this proposal has failed approximately six times by my count. This isn't getting any less "totally contradictory to our guidelines" each time you say it, and it's not getting any more acceptable to the other editors here. I've suggested before that, since you have a fundamental problem with Misplaced Pages's underlying policies that this might not be a good place to expend your effort — because it's certainly wasted a lot of other people's time. --Haemo (talk) 21:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

• (quoting Haemo) "Editorial evaluation, without reliable sources to support it, of which facts are relevant to a subject is original research." ... I cannot find this second claim of yours in the guidelines, would you please provide a citation?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

For example, Xiutwel, it would be wrong to publish "John Hinkley Junior shot President Ronald Reagan; Reagan later died." While both of these statements are true with a multitude of reliable sources to back them up, when placed together they draw a conclusion for readers which is fallacious: that Reagan died as a result of being shot. The same thing applies here: we cannot invite readers to come to their own conclusions by presenting disjointed facts. ~ S0CO 21:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree your quote would be misleading, but such additions are not my intention, naturally.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

To expand, you could believe really, super-strongly that death of Hitler was caused by his vegetarianism. Adding facts — reported, reliable facts — to the death of Hitler article about, for instance, Hitler's vegetarianism, his reported manic behavior prior to his death, bizarre vegetarian statements he made reported by some people familiar with his last days in the bunker, clinical studies showing that some forms of vegetarianism can lead to manic behavior, etc. is what you're arguing. No reliable source thinks these facts are relevant to Hitler's death, but you are arguing to include them nonetheless. You have just performed an original synthesis to imply that Hitler's death was related to his love of vegetables. --Haemo (talk) 21:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree this would be misleading, but such additions are not my intention, naturally. We do not write about vegetarianism in death of Hitler, but I assume it deserves mentioning in Hitler. Sorry, but you are giving examples which do not apply here.
I would welcome an answer to my question above: do you think the RS are NPOV ?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:31, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what you're arguing we do here; include factoids which "contradict the mainstream account" (of Hitler's death) and which are reported by reliable sources, but not deemed important or relevant to the subject by reliable sources. Reliable sources are not necessarily neutral; this is a truism, but unpopular views still must be reported on by them, and facts minority views point to must be reported on as deemed relevant, either by reliable sources directly, or as party to the minority view. For instance, suppose a reliable source reported that certain "vegetarian theorists" believed that Hitler's manic behavior was caused by his vegetarianism, which lead to his death. We could then include those facts, since a reliable source has explained that they are believed to be relevant. We can also attribute the relevancy to a particular view, possibly in a section called "Vegetarian theories". However, without that reliable source, it's against our guidelines. --Haemo (talk) 21:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you agree to leave the fictional Hitler analogies for a moment and let's discuss (again): do you think that the Reliable sources are following Neutral point of view in regard to alleged government involvement in 9/11 ? and what unsourced conclusion might our readers draw when we simply report that the passport was found?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

• Or are you saying that we could include the passport discovery in this article (which on September 16, 2001 was deemed relevant by RS to establishing the identities of the culprites) were it not for the fact that since then, conspiracy theorists have been building a case on it?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The fictional Hitler analogies are useful, because they disassociate the subject from one which you have a very strong point of view on. Indeed, you disagree with your own suggestions when applied to articles where you don't have a strong prior opinion about the material! The question "are reliable sources following neutral point of view" doesn't make any sense — because "the neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources". It's a policy for tertiary sources, like Misplaced Pages, not primary or secondary sources; reliable sources often cannot meet our guidelines, because in that case our guidelines would be self-referential! I'm not sure what context your insertion of the passport will be, so I can't really speak to it. --Haemo (talk) 23:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

split: passport issue

(deindent, and adding a subsection to make editing easier) Haemo, I suggest the passport text above be included at the end of the section 2.1 - The hijackers  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

PTR, you asked above: "There should then be some reliable sources that discuss the finding of the passport in more depth than just that it was found. Do you have any more sources on this? " — I do not see why any RS should discuss any more than that. The passport was found, ergo its owner was a hijacker, just as the authorities already claimed. What would you expect them to write?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

• can I conclude there is consensus, at least no objection, to include the passport text? Or no?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Unrelated, but just as a request: please note that this is the 22nd section/subsection you have created on this page. It would really be better if we could focus on one thing at a time in a single section instead of branching like this, without as many section breaks. Let's tackle these issues one at a time. ~ S0CO 06:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

How could a passport survive if most of the black boxes ("indestuctable") did not survive? That seems impossible. Also, at the WTC, the steel was reduced to molten scrap. How could a passport be found there? Highly unlikely if not impossible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

split: NPOV issue

(deindent) Haemo, I think the Hitler analogies were indeed useful to show a point; but we agree on that point! What we differ on, however, is that the two cases would be largely analogous. I think they are not at all. Any fact which has been in the 9/11 commission or in newspaper articles regarding the 9/11 commission, 9/11 investigation or responsibility, is automatically relevant to the issue of balancing between views A and B. (War exercises. Molten metal. Cut beams. Removed debries.) I am not saying that any fact which is relevant should be put in; we should try to balance the amount of facts pro and con fairly. When you say that my question "Are the RS NPOV regarding 9/11" is irrelevant, you are in fact almost saying they are POV. And that is why we can rely on them for producing Verifiable facts, but not for selecting those facts in a NPOV manner. So, we have to devise an other way to agree on that. If you can read the NPOV policy another way, please quote it.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not; neutrality in the context of Misplaced Pages does not apply to reliable sources. It is a way of weighting the views expressed by reliable sources; it cannot be a property of a reliable source, since that would make the guideline incoherent and self-referential. You don't seem to get this. --Haemo (talk) 03:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

To be clear: I do not demand of any reliable source to be neutral in order to be used. But I do demand that we distinguish between the alternate (significant minority-) views which RS do report on, versus the majority views which they themselves hold. I think we should balance those two views, and not unquestioningly follow in our narrative (and in our fact selection) the particular view that the RS themselves hold and therefore promote in their fact selection. Once facts or theories have been reported on by RS, they remain part of the debate, which then must be represented in a balanced way by Misplaced Pages. No self-referential incoherence here that I can see. On the other hand: I have not seen any quotes from you which address the problems of Circular reasoning, Selection bias, or a citation from the WP:Guidelines for your claim "Editorial evaluation, without reliable sources to support it, of which facts are relevant to a subject is original research." Would you be willing to try and provide at least one out of those three, for a start?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 04:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

If a minority view, of a fact or theory is relevant, then it will have a reliable source reporting on its relevance. Misplaced Pages does not report on the debate, as editors, we report on the debate when (and ONLY when) reliable sources do so. You have a fundamental disagreement with our policies here, and no amount of restating that disagreement will change it. The statement I have made, above, is not circular or biased — it is textbook guidance from our guidelines on original research. You disagree with them — so I suggest you either try to get them changed, or do something else with your time. Because you have wasted a lot of people's time with this already — not the least of all, your own. --Haemo (talk) 06:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you provide us a quote from the guidelines, asking us to use RS in determining relevance? I would say relevance is for the editors to decide. Common sense tells me that, when describing two sides of a debate neutrally, we should also include the (agreed upon) facts that side B uses. How could we omit them and be neutral?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

"Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources. If the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research". The problem you have in your suggestion is that there are no reliable sources asserting which facts "narrative B" in this situation uses, or their relevance. Without reliable sources, the determination of which facts fall into this category is original research. --Haemo (talk) 19:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that I and others have copied and pasted that exact quote to this page before, to no avail. This user has been told these things many times, over and over, but does not understand or refuses to understand. Okiefromokla 21:18, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I've been trying to say. ~ S0CO 19:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Haemo and Jc-S0CO, I am not pursuing narrative B - there is more than one "B", in fact: each theorist may have his/her own theory - but I am suggesting that we should discontinue pursuing view A as the narrative for our article. That would not be neutral. Facts about 9/11 which have ever been published in RS are potentially relevant for our article on 9/11, and I believe we make our own editorial choices thereafter. You still have not provided to convince me otherwise a quote from the guidelines I am looking for, i.e. that RS should be determining which facts we select - instead of our own WP:Common sense. If you look at the full quote which you did give (below), you can see that that text is about editors making claims using A+B => C, where C is invented by the wikipedian, using seperate sources for fact A and fact B. I am not inventing any C (though I have my own private opinion), I am just saying you cannot leave out all the facts which make narrative A look plausible. I am not putting facts together. I would like to put facts in, standalone, without narrative A to support them. For instance: the passport which was found. What could be synthesis about that? Currently, only facts which support narrative A are allowed in: That i.m.o. amounts to synthesis: fact-picking to support a narrative.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources. Synthesizing material occurs when an editor tries to demonstrate the validity of his or her own conclusions by citing sources that when put together serve to advance the editor's position. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Summarizing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis — it is good editing. Best practice is to write Misplaced Pages articles by taking claims made by different reliable sources about a subject and putting those claims in our own words on an article page, with each claim attributable to a source that makes that claim explicitly.
Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. This would be synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, which constitutes original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article. - from WP:SYNTH,  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you please let me know to which of the 11 attempted summery points below you disagree?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

some quotes from the discussions above

I would like to give some quotes which rather highlight my concerns about this 9/11 page being NPOV, and about it unduly presenting opinions as if they were facts:

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

 &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 02:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Here you've done it again: by cherry-picking pieces of comments, you can twist what is being said into whatever you want it to be. Both of my quotes which you have listed above exclude the parts of the comments you made which they were addressing, changing their meaning into something which was neither stated nor implied. ~ S0CO 03:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

My sincere apologies, I am not presuming to summarize the debate, I am summerizing MY concern regarding the POV of the article; In no way do I intend to distort the debate or anyone's words. Please feel free to include the quotes you think I should have included, into the archived section. I only made it "archived" to avoid new editors replying to these quotes, which would make the whole thing incomprehensible.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 03:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

As it is, this cherry-picked archive is incomprehensible to look at and no clear conclusions are drawn from it. It should really be removed, being as this talk page has already degraded into an impossible maze of topics and subtopics as a result of this ongoing debate. The root cause of our problem here appears to be disagreement over what is the definition of a reliable source. The current consensus is against the inclusion of the material you are proposing, because individually these factiods you have provided are not notable enough to warrant inclusion. However, your concern appears to be that the "mainstream account" is not WP:NPOV. These issues really do not belong on this talk page. If you dispute what can be considered a reliable source (ie: on the basis of if the source itself is POV, and what is considered POV to begin with), you should take it elsewhere -- such as to the policies themselves. As it is, continuing to add on to this talk page is going nowhere and (whether intentional or not) has clearly crossed the line into disruptive editing. I don't mean to sound rude, but that's the way it is. I would appreciate if you would please either replace the above archive section with a single concise argument or take this debate elsewhere, because as it stands, it accomplishes nothing and wastes a lot of people's time. ~ S0CO 06:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Xiutwel, after looking at your discussions from almost 2 years ago on 9/11-related material, I have to wonder: If Wikipedians have always disagreed with you on these points, will there come a time when you stop pushing them? At the very least, I respect your determination, but your issue seems to be with Misplaced Pages itself — you want to change the nature of Misplaced Pages because, obviously, you have a slant that violates fundamental policies, and people have told you many times. Though I strongly disagree with you and your precieved problems with Misplaced Pages, I have all the respect in the world for your efforts. Nevertheless, its time to realize (after more than a year of being told) that Misplaced Pages isn't the place to do this. If you get a PhD and write a paper that garners support from the scientific community, then maybe we will have a reliable source to give credence to your views here. In the mean time, continuing to clutter talk pages with massive drawn-out arguments about this "Narrative based fact selection mechanism" and your related concerns that violate Misplaced Pages policy is just wasting time. Take up policy changes elsewhere, or maybe, after 2 years, it could be time to stop. Really. And if you ever need help with anything in your future endeavors on Misplaced Pages, I'm happy to do what I can. Just ask. Okiefromokla 07:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

• Jc-S0CO, Okiefromokla, it is not all Wikipedians that disagree with me; it may be a majority perhaps, but as you can see from the 37 page archive, I am not alone, I am representing the interest of a significant minority view against a majority view because I value neutrality.
  I hear you are frustrated with this ongoing debate; I can imagine it is frustrating for all of us. I for one would love to make progress towards consensus faster than we are, but I am not complaining (only to my wife). Since you refuse to correct my summary, I will strike it, especially when you think it is only confusing things more.
  I do not believe as you do that we differ on what a RS is. We differ on how the RS should be used by Misplaced Pages. I say we can only use them for finding verifiable facts, not for copying their opinion as if that were the neutral opinion. You appear to say that we should use their opinions to select the reliable, verifiable facts we omit. I cannot see a basis for this in policy. If you can, would you quote it? Our policy is to be neutral: Describe both sides of any debate fairly and sympathatically. Even when the RS are not doing so, then we still should.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's not confuse the issue further by misrepresenting our positions: I have not at any time said that all Wikipedians disagree with you. But to date, you would appear to be the only steady contributor on your side of the debate. I am not discouraging you in any way from further discussion, but it's safe to say that the present consensus on this page is against including your material. Now, as a rule, I do not alter other people's contributions to the talk page unless I am removing vandalism or trite topics in violation of WP:FORUM. It's a bad idea to do otherwise and can lead to unnecessary unpleasantness; hence I did not want to touch your summary lest I be accused of distorting your meaning. The point I was trying to make was that the collection of quotes you provided did not lay out a clear case for anything in particular, and there was no need to confuse the topic more than it already has been.

To be clear:

• I don't know where you're getting the idea that I support thrusting opinion into Misplaced Pages. I was not aware that I had suggested anything of the sort.
• It appeared to me that you wanted do to exactly that, albeit indirectly, by posting a series of disjointed facts in a manner which would encourage a reader to synthesize a conclusion which was not directly supported by a reliable source.
• The facts we omit are omitted on the basis of notability, not on the opinions which may or may not be present in the sources used.

~ S0CO 07:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I thank you for pointing out to me that my attempt to further discussion in this manner was clumsy. I see now that it was not helpful, rather the contrary. I apologize and suggest we try again in the "attempted summary" section below. Please add additional points when necessary or strike the ones which I have mis-interpreted as consensus.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

POV

I have added a POV tag. There has been an ongoing dispute since it's start, and it's an obvious rule violation that it has been removed wihout having that incredibly long, continuing, multiple independent user and heated dispute settled in a fashion that would end the constant feeding the archive. --Striver - talk 15:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

"there is no legitimate dispute here" ?

05:13, 17 February 2008 Ice Cold Beer (Talk | contribs) (185,122 bytes) (revert. there is no legitimate dispute here)

That's a very "interesting" viewpoint, ICBeer: now, after 3 weeks of discussing, it appears there is not even consensus on whether there is a dispute here. The article is (admittedly so) representing a single view, and not neutral. We are discussing on how to resolve this. Please note that I only placed the POV category on the talk page, not in the article, where it belongs, in order to avoid an unfruitful edit war over that. I would appreciate it when the tag stays on the talk page. I feel very sad that it was removed, because I would like to see wikipedia as a collaborative effort. Were you feeling frustrated by this ongoing discussion?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

When I say legitimate dispute, I mean that arguments from both sides of the dispute are made using policy. In this case, the folks who would like conspiracy language added to the article are ignoring the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 23:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

You are saying that including facts which reliable sources reported on in 2001, but are not reporting anymore, would be a violation of WP:WEIGHT? I disagree, it is not that simple. Equitable treatment of a minority point of view, albeit just mentioning some facts, can hardly amount to 0%. How many facts would you deem equitable? The current article seems to have 196 references in accordance with narrative A. Does that leave room for inclusion of a view facts which neutralize the A-bias in the article?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 23:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Narrative A = Factual. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 01:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Okiefromokla 01:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Ice, Okie: That is your opinion. It may well be correct. And you are entitled to it. But pushing your opinion as factual is the definition of POV, when there exists a significant minority view. So, even when you are correct about it, you are violating NEUTRAL. See?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No. "Narrative A" is the only one supported by reliable sources. I don't care if 80% of people believe something — it's useless here without documentation. You are misunderstanding notability, and most Misplaced Pages policy, for that matter. The fact alone that many people believe something does not mean we give it the same level of respect as sourced material. We cover it as a social phenomenon, not plausible fact, which is what the conspiracy section and article are about. Okiefromokla 02:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

video link for inclusion

I noticed the following link was added and removed, I put it here for discussion:

• Comprehensive coverage of the 9/11 attacks

 &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

That description is hardly representative. The video, titled "Rise and Shine" (notably not "Comprehensive coverage of the 9/11 attacks") is accompanied by the following note left by the poster of the video:

"An ever growing number of people around the world are starting to see the blindingly obvious - Big Brother is riding into town on the back of 'Terrorism'."

Very NPOV. And then there are the first words which come out of the narrator's mouth:

"The notion of a U.S. war on terrorism is simply a fraud. There is no war on terrorism. The anglo-americans are backing terrorists exactly when and where it suits them..."

A conspiracy theorist rant which is not even primarily related to the 9/11 attacks is unpresentable. A rant misleadingly labeled as something else is completely unacceptable. This video has no place on this page. ~ S0CO 06:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Also external linking guidelines; how is a link to someone's YouTube channel an encyclopedic purpose which contains "information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail"? It's a channel; it contains a dynamic list of the videos they think are interesting. Why is this channel special, important, or encyclopedic? --Haemo (talk) 07:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

attempted summary / Heart of NPOV (4)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I will make an attempt to summarize the debate of the past weeks so far. Would you all please correct me, and/or add? This is what I hope and think we editors are all agreeing on:

1. There exist in the world several views on the responsibility for the 9/11 attacks; let's call the dominant view: "A" and all the other views: "B". When describing 9/11, one can assume that view A is correct (perspective A), or take a neutral perspective: "C". (Perspective "B" would be out of the question for Misplaced Pages to use.)
2. View A is held by most, if not all, Reliable sources (RS).
3. The RS are usually presenting facts which they deem relevant in their perspective.
4. The proponents of view B, in the world, form a significant minority (not a tiny minority).
5. Misplaced Pages policy dictates to use for establishing notability only reliable sources; this holds for article topics and for facts.
6. Misplaced Pages policy dictates to have verifiable sources for each statement or fact in an article.
7. Notability is eternal: something cannot suddenly stop being notable.
8. Misplaced Pages is bound to use the narrative in the neutral fashion: describe all sides of the debate fairly and sympathetically.
9. Coverage of views should be proportionate: a significant minoriy view should not receive as much attention as the majority view.
10. There is difference of opinion between editors on what the above means for the selection method of: which facts to include in this article and which facts to omit.
11. The current 9/11 article is written from perspective A. 07:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: after we have all agreed on the above (or a variant thereof), we can discuss further how to proceed in achieving consensus.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 07:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

addition; disagreement

We seem to be in disagreement on:

1. The way WP:SYNTH should be interpreted. DEBATE: Is it forbidden by wikipedia policy to mention facts in an article, when no RS using them to form a conclusion in line with the article, or is including such facts "#good editing" and is it only forbidden to draw conclusions yourself, cherry-picking facts to substantiate a non-RS based claim?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

further discussion

ad 10., quoting Jc-S0CO 07:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC) : The facts we omit are omitted on the basis of "notability", not on the opinions which may or may not be present in the sources used.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 07:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, that this is what is happening. But I believe firstly that using this method of establishing notability is in error, see WP:N#TEMP, and secondly: because this error is opinion-related (#NFSM) due to bias present in the RS, it is i.m.o. leading to a violation of our WP:NEUTRAL policy.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 07:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I largely agree with the above synopsis. However, I tend to question the term "Reliable Sources". We have seen, historically, that the major media have at times been anything but reliable, especially when large-scale power-political interests have been at stake. The uncritical hyping for war against Spain with the Maine incident as a pretext is one example; the uncritical acceptance of the weapons of mass destruction propaganda is another. (Many "fringe media" were more reliable in that respect.) What adds to the difficulty in cases like WMD and 9/11 are the close ties between major media, the government, and the military-industrial complex for which war (or the possibility thereof) can even be seen as a raison d'être. A relativization of the concept of "reliable sources" would be one step toward a truly neutral point of view. Another step would be a healthy critical attitude toward information coming from all sources - including official ones. I contend that currently Misplaced Pages is not doing a good job from that perspective. In particular, an official explanation should not be automatically presented as fact regardless of all or any evidence to the contrary just because it is promoted by authorities or the predominant media. Vesku (talk) 09:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If your objective is to challenge Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources, an existing and long-standing policy, then you should discuss your objections at Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources and not here. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 09:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Vesku, I agree that the name is confusing, but it I believe it is accepted among wikipedians that reliable sources are not necessarily trustworthy. I interpret it as: they can be relied upon to have a certain level of trustworthiness (over which opinions will differ), but which does not vary much. The essence is the predictability of it. If there is some blogger on a farm, we cannot predict the trustworthiness of his articles. That difference, i.m.o., makes a reliable source.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 13:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, you have failed to hear what others are telling you. This violates Misplaced Pages policy. We cannot consider a view unsupported by reliable sources to be equal to a view that is supported. There is, as you say, a significant minority who believe 9/11 conspiracy theories, and that's covered here. We have a section in this article for that, which links to another article about that entirely. You have shown an obvious bias in this matter and have pushed relentlessly for inclusion of a slant based on your conspiracy theory, despite good faith efforts for God knows how long to help you understand Misplaced Pages policy. So, I will not agree with your list. It's another obvious, transparent, and rather bad attempt to pursuade people to bypass Misplaced Pages policy by misleading them, nothing more. I will not be participating in these discussions further, and I hope other editors on this page will follow my example. Please do not clutter this talk page with these proposals again. Okiefromokla 17:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Okie, I've replied on your talk page.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 18:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

(copied from User Talk:Okiefromokla):

I am sorry to hear you feel this way. I was not at all implying that we should resort to non-RS sources. I am just saying they can be wrong. They are only human.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 18:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Do you agree with my 11 points of consensus, or am I mistaken ? You weren't referring to that, were you?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 19:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't agree with your "points of consensus" because the root of them is your disagreement with fundamental policy to push a belief, and that's not what the 9/11 talk page is for. Your list is an obvious attempt to disguise the bypass of policy to make a case that your conspiracy theory should be treated equally in the article despite the lack of reliable sources. There isn't a point to discussing it any further. Okiefromokla 19:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Okiefromokla, I am not trying to trick you into anything with my "points list" above. I am trying to find out what we agree on, so we can focus our discussion. Hoping to reach full consensus soon on how to proceed with the article, and end this tedious discussion. That's why I would like you and Haemo and others to let us know which of the 11 points you disagree on, and which you agree on. Then we can stop debating things we agree on. Currently, I am certain on one issue of dissent, and I've added it above. (Please add or refrase points when you dislike my wording.) Are you still disagreeing? Of the list itself? Of all the points on it? Of some points on it?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Stop this. The list you have made has nothing to do with what you are trying to change our fundamental policies. If you want them changed, then do so on the correct talk page. Stop wasting our time here — it's totally unproductive. --Haemo (talk) 01:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not trying to change policy. With all respect, you are violating WP:NEUTRAL because you misread WP:SYNTH. If you deny this, point out in the above list where I am wrong.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It is quite the opposite. You are trying to fundamentally change how Misplaced Pages deals with original research. The guidelines are in plain English, yet you do not seem to understand them — this may be because English is not your first language, but at this point I no longer care. Do you understand why you are the only one who has this novel interpretation of guidelines? Does that surprise you? Does that make you think "maybe I'm wrong and need to go think about what I'm arguing". Specifically, I disagree with this "There is difference of opinion between editors on what the above means for the selection method of: which facts to include in this article and which facts to omit." There is not a disagreement — there is one editor (you) who simply refuses to understand, or abide by Misplaced Pages's guidelines. This isn't a disagreement — it's you not being able to work within guidelines. I suggest you either decide to work within them, or get them changed — but regardless, stop wasting everyone's time. You might want to read tendentious editing for a spot-check on your behavior, because it fits you to a tee. --Haemo (talk) 01:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is written as the known evidence and facts can be determined. I haven't seen any new additions that are needed in well over a year. If anything, several sections need to be streamlined to make the article more of a summary of the events of that day. There certainly isn't any reason to expand on conspiracy theories, especially since we already have several articles that already expand on these silly notions.--MONGO 02:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Just one question/comment linked to the statement about determined facts. What about, say, the flight path data and animation of flight 77 provided by the NTSB as a result of a FOIA request by Pilots for 911 Truth? The flight path animation stops at 9:37:44 AM EDT (the official impact time being 09:37:45), just short of the impact, when the plane is shown to be several hundreds of feet above (almost directly above) the street whose light poles it is supposed to have knocked down. In other words, there is a discrepancy of several hundreds of feet to the official flight path, but the NTSB has reportedly simply refused to comment. See "Flight Data Recorder Analysis - Last Second of Data - 09:37:44" at http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html This is just one example of how much there still is to "determine". Perscurator (talk) 12:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No comment. What about this, then? A contributor to the History Commons project has recently obtained a 298-page document entitled "Hijackers Timeline" (redacted) from the FBI, also based on a Freedom of Information Act request. Some examples of the new revelations: some of the hijackers were evidently assisted by employees of the Saudi government; hijackers Marwan Alshehhi and Hamza Alghamdi purchased hundreds of dollars' worth of "pornographic video and sex toys" during the summer of 2001; and hijacker Hamza Alghamdi booked several flights after 9/11 - a continuation flight from Los Angeles to San Francisco later on the day of the attacks, and on September 20, he seems to have planned to fly "from Rome to Casablanca, to Riyadh, to Damman, Saudi Arabia".

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/news.jsp?oid=140393703-423

Perscurator (talk) 16:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Perscurator, very interesting news for me!  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 02:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Xiutwel, as you contacted me to do so, I have addressed each of these points at my talk page. ~ S0CO 02:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE: According to User:Vesku's talk page, Vesku and User:Perscurator are the same person. ~ S0CO 00:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Note

: Please add further comments outside the archived bit, if necessary.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

passport issue (2)

Following apparant consensus, I inserted the text:

A passport of one of the hijackers was reported found intact near the WTC. Rescue workers sifting through the tons of rubble discovered the passport, belonging to one of the suspected hijackers, a few blocks from where the World Trade Center's twin towers once stood.; a passerby picked it up and gave it to a NYPD detective shortly before the World Trade Center towers collapsed.

 &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Xiutwel - Please stop with this. There is no consensus for the change to include the factoid about the hijacker's passport. This article is a summary of the many subarticles relating to 9/11. The detail about the passport is too detailed and too specific for this article. It seems there is something mysterious about how a passport could survive the crash and end up a few blocks away? Here, here, here, here, and here are pictures showing the various debris (much of it pieces of paper) that ended up on the streets after Flight 11 crashed. Landing gear from the plane was also found blocks away. That a passport also ended up blocks away isn't particularly important detail for the main article. --Aude (talk) 00:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Precisely...it's a tidbid of info often cited by the CT crowd to make their fantasy story more plausible.--MONGO 00:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, it was reported all over the world on September 16. The section I'm inserting it in is very small, it can be a little bigger. This fact is important to people. It should not be burried in some sub-article. If you're blocking edits, would you please engage in the disussion here on how to mend the neutrality of this article. PS I do not see any pictures of passenger belongings, these are just papers that were in the offices.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is the bank card belonging to Waleed J. Iskandar, a passenger on Flight 11. The bank card was found in the Ground Zero debris. We don't need factoids about passports or other specific items of debris in the main article. --Aude (talk) 00:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. This one fact in the light of what happened that day does not seem notable enough for here, especially considering that it is given adequate mention in an article with a more detailed focus on the subject. This particular article serves as the overall summary, after all. On another note, I don't see how this factoid aids the c/t crowd, anyway. It's not inconceivable that objects in the cockpit could have made it through the building intact -- jet fuel is stored in the wings, behind the cockpit. The velocity of the plane was sufficient (if only for a second or so) for some items to be carried through and out before they would have been incinerated in the following explosion. ~ S0CO 00:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Besides, by the point where you proposed this Xiutwel, you had (as noted in that section) already created 22 separate subsections. I'm not surprised there were no further replies, what with how convoluted this talk page has become it was inevitable something would get lost in the fray. For future reference, don't take lack of response as a sign of consensus, especially when a discussion has become as confused as this one. ~ S0CO 00:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It might have been your edit regarding 22 subsections directly below my question, which misled me...  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note that according to Ms. Susan Ginsburg, who directed part of the investigation, before the 911 Commission, the passport was found before the towers collapsed.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

So what? New York is home to a lot of people, and that leaves a timeframe of several hours following the crash in which the passport may have been found before the tower collapsed. Now, if it had been found before the crash, you would definitely have a case, but this alone means nothing. ~ S0CO 18:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Pete Burke's pictures (linked above) were taken before the towers collapsed and before Flight 175 crashed into the second tower. There was quite a lot of debris on the ground from the first crash. That a passerby found the passport amongst all the debris, picked it up and gave it to a police officer, is not surprising. --Aude (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

It does not matter what you or I think about it; it is significant to a lot of people. A lot of hits in google. Why is it so important to you to block this info? And please, engage in the neutrality debate above. I want to know whether you think this article is neutral.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:33, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Who finds it significant? And is this the most significant thing not in the article? How does it improve the article? Why should we include this fact above thousands of other facts that are not in the article? RxS (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• Suqami passport - 46 hits in the Google News archive, compared to other details, such as Atta's last will and testament - 3,520 hits on Google News. Suqami's passport is more of a minor detail, one not worth including here. We don't have space for everything in a summary article. As for other threads on this talk page, I'm not interested in repeating myself here, when you can read the talk page archives to see my previous comments. Nor do I have the time to keep up with all the new threads. --Aude (talk) 01:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• If you are counting google hits in NEWS, you are following hits in RS to establish notability of a fact. This is exactly what I mean by Narrative based Fact Selection, #NFSM, which leads to a-neutrality.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 18:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• repeated question: Who finds it significant? And is this the most significant thing not in the article? How does it improve the article? Why should we include this fact above thousands of other facts that are not in the article? RxS (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry for not replying sooner, RxS. If one does not google in NEWS but in plain google, you find a lot of conspiracy sites. So, these people have not forgotten this little fact, and do not deem it an insignificant chance coincidence. They may be looney in doing so, but Commons sense tells us it is likely relevant to view B, and therefore it helps in making the article a bit more neutral. If other wikipedians would want to balance this (dis)info with statements such as above, that is also possible. I predict the biggest hurdle will be for us to determine: what is: "balanced"? When is this balance achieved? (And yes, I know that a google search is not a RS to warrent a statement, it is OR.)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 20:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no hurdle. You are merely fundamentally ignorant of our policies. There is no "view B" to be discussed here. We have one view: The view that is supported by reliable sources. We simply do not make distinctions between viewpoints by any other standard. If anything, the term "view B" signifies any view unsupported by reliable sources, and asking us to give it creedence it would violate half of our policies, not the least of which: WP:NPOV. The passport information is not relevant to this article, and your Google test, which does not determine notability, is mistaken. If you simply type hijacker passport you will receive every page that has those two words in any combination. Adding quotation marks around a specific phrase will narrow it. Okiefromokla 22:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"If you are counting google hits in NEWS, you are following hits in RS to establish notability of a fact. This is exactly what I mean by Narrative based Fact Selection, #NFSM, which leads to a-neutrality."

This is the crux of the problem that we have with the alterations you are trying to make to this article. Misplaced Pages is built on reliable sources. It's one of the founding policies of the entire project. If reliable sources do not exist for the content you are trying to add, then it simply cannot be added. What more is there to say about this? ~ S0CO 18:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• I am happy that the passport issue is at least in a subarticle of this main article. However, information in subarticles does not balance this article. We need more issues to add to this article to make it less POV, suggestions? (Or, we might remove all the not-agreed-upon material from this article, but that would not be my preference.)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

I re-added the tag - obvious dispute in the talk page.--Striver - talk 06:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

One person does not a dispute make; nor does a dispute with Misplaced Pages's fundamental guidelines make an article non-neutral. An argument on the talk page does not indicate that an article is non-neutral, especially when the argument being made for changes violates our fundamental guidelines and policies. There is a lot of sound and fury here, but no substance; please do not add the tag. It's disruptive. --Haemo (talk) 06:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Haemo, I would like to go back to our discussion on WP:SYNTH. Just below "#good editing" before, you made a claim that what I proposed would by in violation of that guideline, quoting the guideline partially. I then provided a more full quote, and you did not comment on that further, and you put the section into archived mode. (I am assuming good faith, it is a complex discussion with a lot of participants who each defend narrative A in their own way.) So, would you please explain why you would think that: -

• when I were to add a RS-based fact which appears to weaken narrative A in my eyes, but not in yours, without drawing conclusions, it would be SYNTH? The essence of the guideline here is: "when put together". I am not synthesizing facts or implicit conclusions, I am just adding facts on one big heap to make it neutral.
• the sources cited are related directly to the article, agree?
• you wrote: there reliable sources asserting which facts "narrative B" in this situation uses, or their relevance. Without reliable sources, the determination of which facts fall into this category is original research. I agree that, when claiming in the article that narrative B uses fact X, I should have a RS to demonstrate it. To include fact X, however, wikipedians can use their own judgement. The RS are not committed to being WP:NEUTRAL, but we are.
• I am not aware of wanting to violate any guideline. If you disagree, could you provide a quote of mine and a quote of a guideline which it conflicts with?
• adding bias to a neutral article makes it biased. Adding bias to a biased article is inevitable in making it neutral.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 19:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that you're adding facts which do not appear to have any significance or relevance to the topic — . Indeed, you've explicitly endorsed adding facts which no reliable source ties to the event, or gives them any significance. In other words, you're taking sources which report something, but which do not tie them to this event in any meaningful or significant way, and trying to include them because you think they're relevant. Relevance does not come from my opinion, or your opinion, and it doesn't come from whether or not I think they undermine anything. Synthesis is explicitly "if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article" — if you are citing sources which include facts, but are not directly related to the subject of the article, you are engaging in original research. Misplaced Pages is not a fact grab bag, where we go about (as you say "use own judgment") to decide which facts are, or are not relevant to an issue on our own. I might think it's super-freaking relevant to the terrorist attacks that on September 10th 2001 a crazy guy went on a shooting rampage; however, no reliable sources would back up that relevance, so it shouldn't be included. The same goes for the POV you are trying to push here — you don't seem to understand that Wikipedians are not supposed to be deciding what, and is not, relevant to an article's subject. That's what researchers in the field do — historians, experts, journalists, etc. We are a tertiary source, and thus defer to them — accepting relevance if (and only if) they assert it first.

Again, I ask that you think about what you're arguing — you have a very strong POV on this issue, and are explicitly trying to bias the article. You say as much above. Think about applying your argument, and what you seek to do here, anywhere else — it opens the door for everyone with a theory and some facts which they can source to reliable sources to add whackjobs of unrelated facts to any article? Think the Sun is inhabited by an ancient race of Machine-Gods? Well, start adding facts about how certain alloys can survive near the suns surface, how "anomalous readings" have been held by some to indicate life, how some futurists have speculated about an inhabited sun, or whatever else you want. Perhaps this is why it's prohibited by our guidelines? I explicitly gave you an argument earlier which was exactly the same, but for Hitler's death and vegetarianism — you rejected your own suggestions when the issue was something you did not believe strongly about. That should tell you something about its validity, and your motivations here. --Haemo (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand how you think your example of veggy Hitler to be the same, or even similar.
The sun machine gods would not be against policy, when this view was nontiny.
For 9/11, there exists a notable, 9/11-B view. Its existence is backed by RS. Its merit is not (to the contrary). B is nontiny. Thus it should be included fairly in a neutral article.
Let's distinguish 2 concepts: related means: connected, the same subject. relevant means the same, but stronger: additionally it also means: significant or important. SYNTH mentions related, not relevant or significant, sou could you please explain how adding facts would violate SYNTH?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 21:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

You missed the intensifier "directly". The semantic difference between a source being "directly related" to a subject, and the facts outlined in the source being "relevant" to a subject is nil. This is Wikilawyering in the extreme. If you look at the Hitler argument, it has exactly the same structure as your argument — yet you opposed it! You also seem to misunderstand, or are confused about the Sun example I gave — suppose it was not "tiny" in your terms. You claim adding all of those facts to the article would be acceptable — however, at no point are any of the source give "directly related" or "relevant" to the article! It's textbook synthesis — you just explicitly endorsed synthesis, again, as you have been repeatedly doing so. --Haemo (talk) 21:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Xiutwel, there are two kinds of notability, and you are mistaking them. If a large portion of the population believes in the sun machine gods, there can be an article about the social movement of believing in them. The article about the sun will not mention the possibility of machine sun gods living there or select otherwise unimportant facts to hint at their existence. Likewise, we have an article about the social phenomenon of 9/11 conspiracy theories, but for the same reason, we do not balance the conspiracy theories with the actual account, which is based on available reliable sources, in this article. I do not know how many times you need to be given this information for it to sink in. Okiefromokla 22:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Okie, we can have an article about the phenomenon of a social movement which has some belief that most of us don't share. I agree. And there should be an article on the 9/11 Truth Movement as such. But, when such a social group is nontiny, it is therefore a group we must consider. Perhaps the first question is: are we talking about a tiny, or a significant minority? When we agree on that, I will think about the synthesis bit, because now I must go and catch my train. Thx  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 14:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

04:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC) I am thinking about the synthesis bit, and I am not sure I get what you are saying. On Hitler: one could add the vegetarian bit in "death of..." if and only if there is a significant minority view which (acc. to RS) claims that the two are related. And, that claim should be made explicit, and attributed to some holder of that view. In the machine god example: I must apologize for not thinking it thru. I concentrated on the facts, not on which article you wanted to put it in. The article of the Sun should i.m.o. then have a single line saying that some believe it is inhabited, and the rest goes in a seperate article. Whether the Sun is inhabited or not has little bearing on its other properties, like heat, rotation etc. Likewise, I wouldn't dream of adding the "passport issue" to United States.
In retrospect, I think your hypothetical examples are creative, but are only confusing in the end. There is no good parallel between them and the reality of Misplaced Pages at hand. For instance, the passport: the 9/11 article is supposed to be a summary of its subarticles. The 911/Responsibility article has the passport bit. Therefore it could be in the main article. It's a WP:WEIGHT issue, then. It makes sense the event/fact is related to the guilt of the perpetrators. The fact can be (and is) interpreted in two main ways: (a) it is a plausible coincidence that it survived and was found, and it proves the hijacker was on board; (b) it is an unlikely event that it could have survived, and therefore "indicates" it was planted. The fact in itself is rather neutral. I am amazed at the strong objections, since it was originally promoted by the White House as proof for Al Qaida's involvement. Would you please answer me one question:
would you agree to calling adherents to
   the "view", that: from the facts around 9/11 a LIHOP-scenario is likely, or at least well possible and nees further investigation
— would you agree to calling them a significant minority?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 04:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, I reference the Global Warming example. Are we to group the individual scientists who oppose the IPCC consensus as if they were a single movement when their opinions are varied and often contradictory? The same is the case here. In my talk, you yourself said that the only constant among the conspiracy theorists is the belief that "A cannot be true": who, how, when, why, and to what extent the government had a role are all points of contention among them. Is this general assertion alone binding enough to warrant treating "group B" as if it were a consolidated movement? ~ S0CO 16:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Xiutwel, it makes no difference how big the group is. If what they believe is not supported by reliable sources, it cannot be included. Prevalence of the belief does not translate to plausibility of the belief. Take a look at Misplaced Pages:Notability#General_notability_guideline, as your logic violates nearly every point on this list. Okiefromokla 20:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

• Okie, would you please specify/explain what you mean by "supported"? It is ambiguous: it could mean that RS are saying a belief is or might be true; it might mean that RS are stating that some people have such a belief.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 02:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
• Jc-S0CO: Any individual is unique. Whether two individuals are in the same group, depends on the criterium we choose. If we choose "supporters of a specific view B_x", then no doubt there will be many tiny minorities, and only a few significant minorities. (We could go and do that, when necessary, but it would be a hell of a job.) If we chose "opposers of view A, in the sense that they hold possible a government LIHOP scenario", then we would have a clearly defined subset, for which I have no doubt they have a lot of prominent adherents. I think we do not need to assume a consolidated movement to define a view B this way. How do you feel about that?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 02:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As an Arab Muslim, I find this article very bias. In order to make it a neutral point of view, they must have some sort of evidence that an Arab Muslim hijacked the aircraft. No evidence exists. If someone knows of any evidence explicitly proving that an Arab Muslim did in fact hijack each aircraft please post the sources on this article. Until then, please remove the "Al Queda" references which only further the misconception that terrorists are Arab Muslims and vice versa. There were no Arabs on Flight 77 or 11 according to multiple passenger lists: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 18:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...

"The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States."

Am I the only one that finds the strongly one-sided opening statement of this article f*cking ridiculous? Excuse my French, but this is clearly a biased article. There's no proof or factual evidence relating Al-Qaeda or any terrorist group to 9/11 past what the super foolproof "official" 9/11 Commission Report claims. The problem I have with this is that when people look up 9/11 on say, Google, the very first result is the wiki article. Then, when they continue on to this article, the first thing they read is a "this is what happened and we're totally sure of it" statement. Honestly, it's very irritating. I'm not trying to stir up conspiracy talk here, even though what the press, media, and commission report tells us happened clearly didn't, but that opening line is just too... full of itself. I find it misleading at best, and really want something to be done about it, whether it be removed, changed, or made much less biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominatrixdave (talk • contribs) 23:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

No, you are not the only one who finds this statement biased. But in stead of making, in your indignation, biased claims to the contrary is not the best you can do in creating consensus. So, if you have a good, neutral suggestion, I would welcome it !  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 02:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

You claim that you are not pushing conspiracy talk, then go on to assert that "what the press, media, and commission report tells us happened clearly didn't." I find this lack of subtlety amusing... ~ S0CO 01:29, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The opening of the article is the result of many long discussions. You might want to skim through the archives. OhNoitsJamie 23:48, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe the only thing full of itself is Dominatrixdave. Timneu22 (talk) 02:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

... who locked it from edit? BBC.com says 7 of the supposed hi-jackers are alive and well! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.25.221 (talk) 04:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is only semi-locked, you can edit it when you register an account. The article you quote is very old, I am not sure anno 2008 the supposed hijackers are still believed to be identical to living persons. If you have recent verifiable information on this, I would welcome it !  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 12:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree no nondisputable evidence proves the attacks were performed by arab muslims. Of the 19 official FBI alleged hijackers (http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm), several are still alive (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 18:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

What about this: "The September 11, 2001 attacks (often referred to as 9/11) were a series of coordinated attacks upon the United States." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 18:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering the Administrations handling of 9/11, Iraq, Katrina, and everything else, how can we trust their list alleged hijackers/institutions? Its still arguable whether or not Al Qaeda is funded by the US government simply because the CIA will not release records disproving their financing of Osama Bin Laden since before the Gulf War. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 18:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

To be in your shoes...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

disclaimer: I am going to make a good faith effort to voice the debate from the other side as best as I can. Please assume no demagogous or rethoric intentions. —Xiutwel

" If were to have a certain view, and I would feel confident and sure it was correct, I would expect this view to be in line with what I would find in any encyclopedia. If there were to exist some little sect Church then, which held a view completely opposed to my view, I would not want their view to be in Misplaced Pages. Now, if some prominent film stars and celabrities were to become member of this church, it might gain a lot of media attention. Who cares... even a lot of the general population might be infected by the philospohies of such a church. Something does not get more true because more people believe it. I should not have to argue that the Earth might be flat because such a church claims so, and has notable supporters. I would become a member of what I, for brevities sake, would like to respectfully call: "The A-team". Saying: the earth is round, and it is anyone's right to believe otherwise, but we need not include such nonsense in our article about the Earth. Just a single mention to the historical flat Earth believe is appropriate and suffices.

I can imagine any editor believing this to be right and just, and the purpose of wikipedia. We can respect their view, allow them to have it, but we need not honor their view. No need to be neutral, because the argument is silly.

But, should I not take a step back when 10% of the world population would have the view that the Earth is flat (view B)? It's alright for me to know that the Earth is NOT flat, but they do not know that. Should we then change the Earth article, making it say: a majority believes it is round, and a minority believes it is flat? I would feel very, very awkward about that. Because I bloody KNOW it is round, don't I?

And if some notable Professor were to adhere this view B, and perform experiments: place a floater device on the surface of a calm Sea, and note that the floater does not move sideways "as one would expect when the Earth was round", would I want to allow this experiment in the "Earth" article? And all the other crazy arguments which exist? This debate should belong in a seperate article! "

I repeat I am not trying to use some cheap trick here, I genuinely see the problem. I hope we can now jointly work to a decision for this, a hypothetical matter: what course of action should be chosen that is likely to satisfy the most persons (rather than merely the majority)?

It is hard.

" I find it difficult to simply assume the neutral position here, on wikipedia, describing this flat Earth debate, because the notion is ridiculous in my eyes. Yet I think wikipedia policy would prescribe me to do so: assume neutrality, and give each side plenty of fair space for their view - where one is the truth and the other, demonstrably, a delusion. Contrary to the neutrality-policy I would be inclined to discard this bit of policy, because it seems silly now. It's more of a disease than a viewpoint to me! Yet also I believe in the wisdom of all the policies combined, being the result of seven years of co-working between thousands of people in perhaps the biggest single collaborative intellectual effort that has ever been undertaken. So, now I am genuinely confused: neither solution seems to be the right one. " I end my role play here.

(taking time to become me again)

(endulging in a little rant) Looking at all the facts, even when hoping or believing there is a simple explanation for them, is the only thing which has ever advanced science. If a scientific theory is correct, it will stand, regardless of how fiercly it is attacked. If it is flawed, it will be replaced — after a few or after a few thousand years. Access to this complete information can speed up this process. Wikpedia should provide acces to knowledge, neutrally. And that means(!): displaying a lot of nonsense in the process.
In most cases where there exist a view A and a view B, most likely both of them are partly false, and the truth, view T, can be discovered the fastest if enough parties begin to use perspective C: i.e. beholding both views, and their related facts and arguments, from a neutral perspective. I feel relief, having put all this into words. I feel enthousiastic thinking this contribution could turn out to help us reach consensus on how to apply wikipedia policy in this article! — Xiutwel and Sockrates dual 12:33-13:51, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Am I the only one sick of Xiutwel saying the same thing over and over again, ignoring everything we've said, and presenting the same 'debate' each time? Can we put an end to this and say "No, Xiutwel, you are wrong based on Misplaced Pages Principles. Do not bring it up again"? I think this is the ONLY way we are going to move on, since he refuses to understand. --Tarage (talk) 04:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Am I the only one...? No. Peter Grey (talk) 11:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm starting to think at this point that his intent is to ignore us to the point that we stop wasting our breath fighting him, then to interpret the ensuing silence as a green light to add his content. ~ S0CO 05:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

If this is the case(Not saying it is), can we get a moderator or two in here to put an end to this? --Tarage (talk) 05:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

• I am disappointed that your reaction is one of frustration, in stead of moving forward. I too am working very hard here to improve wikipedia, as are you. True: Perhaps I have not responded to every individual claim raised by others, when (and only when) I thought that the other matters I did address would sufficiently answer and deal with these other points raised. If I am wrong, which you are saying, and there are still claims of yours you want answered, I promise I will. Name them. I am trying to pinpoint the core of our dissensus, not ignoring your points. My opinion is: (a) Articles have to be neutral. (b) There exist two nonsignificant viewpoints on 9/11 responsibility: (c) One of them being the majority view. (d) In such a case, guidelines are instructing to write neutrally, not engaging in this debate. (e) We should have RS for any fact or claim, but (f) notability is not temporary: if RS stop reporting on facts and using them, in their analyses, we need not erase them from Misplaced Pages afterwards, nor should we be forbidden to include them. They are still valid. (g) It is not OR or SYNTHESIS to include facts which are supportive to view B, and seem unsupportive of view A. On the contrary: it is our task, being neutral, to include them, duely. (h) The only thing open to debate, is the amount of what is due: what do proportionate, and prominence mean? My preference would be to say: ideally, 80% of the article neutral, 15% pro view A, 5% pro view B. (i) Currently, I would say the article is 50% neutral, 49% view A, and the redirect to the conspiracy theories article seems the only treatment of view B (1%). This is too biased for my taste.
  Please answer the unanswered questions I raised in previous sections requesting quotations from guidelines, when you disagree with me.
  The fastest way to get out of this debate is to find out what it is exacty that we are disagreeing on (which interpretation of which policy); after that we can discuss how to create consensus. I suspect there will be two points: (a) should we still be neutral if we know one of the views to be nonsense? and (b) is it Synthesis to include a fact which is not supportive of a view of any RS? Or need the fact only be supportive of any nontiny view to be relevant enough for inclusion?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 07:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I stoped reading at "I too am working very hard here to improve wikipedia". If this were even remotly true, you would have stoped arguing with Misplaced Pages policy for the past... how many months? Your argument is state, and you don't seem to understand that your problem isn't here, it's with Misplaced Pages's policy, which I am 99% sure you won't be changing. I get the feeling giving you a long winded explination is moot because you've ignored the rest of the ones above. --Tarage (talk) 07:45, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I hear you cannot give me any recognition for my efforts. So be it; I consider working for consensus and discussing matters of improving the article to be "working" as well as working directly on the article. You are right that I believe that you are misinterpreting policy, not I. You are also right, that a long winded explanation is probably not what is useful now: so better not give me a new explanation. Simply quoting the things you think I have ignored earlier will do; then we can see if I have overlooked something, ... or that it is you who is doing the overlooking. OK?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Your above comment makes it clear that you have no intent to listen to anything we have to say, as you have already come to the unmovable conclusion that as long as we disagree with you we are, irrevocably, wrong. I must admit that your persistence in this discussion is impressive, but although now you claim your motive to be balance and neutrality, this stands in sharp contrast to some of the comments you made at the very beginning. However you dress it now, through your past actions I still have a very hard time believing that your intent is any other than to post a list of reliably-sourced factoids in a way which synthesizes a conclusion which does not meet the same standards. That was the point of the Ronald Reagan analogy I made before: even reliably-sourced facts can be strung together to form a fallacious conclusion. That is why the policy exists to begin with.

I can barely stomach this debate at this point, but I have to make this one point clear: Achieving consensus and driving away all editors with differing viewpoints through a relentless filibuster are not the same thing. ~ S0CO 19:06, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

But he was not replying to someone that was just "disagreeing with him", he was replying to someone that explicitly said that he decided to just ignore what he wrote ("I stoped reading at...").--Pokipsy76 (talk) 09:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Pokipsy76 !  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 10:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• You poor editors. Let him be. You've pointed out the flaws in his contribution and he denies your points. It is not your responsibility to guard WP from misguided editors. If your arguments against his edits are valid, others will come along and improve or remove them. While he may be trying to interject a certain POV, he's also adding at least some information - even if it is only that there are some people who believe some things that are whacked out. Now, on to review his edits for myself! Dscotese (talk) 22:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, someone is always going to have to be on guard with his edits, making sure he doesn't put something in because he takes some comment as consensus. I think it would be FAR more productive to simply give a flat out no and move on. --Tarage (talk) 23:03, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

So this dispute is about whether or not to include the "factoid" that one of the hijacker's passports was found - in the section describing the fact that the hijackers were "well-educated...". Think about this: why would you call it a "factoid" instead of a "fact"? Also, I noted that some editors are concerned that certain "factoids" are being used by "the CT crowd" to promote the conspiracy theories. Oh no! Not evidence that people who disagree with me can use! I am firmly on Xiutwel's side in this debate - at least for that edit.

I resolved this by adding the facts that Xiutwel wished to include to the subpage for "Organizers of the 9/11 attacks" or whatever it's called. It seemed the right place for this information.

Dscotese (talk) 04:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

And I have no problem with this; again it is a reliably sourced factoid which I do not see to particularly benefit either side of this debate. But what Xiutwel was attempting to do was add it here, to the main page. My main opposition to this was that in the full summary context of what happened that day, something like this is really was too minor IMO to include on the main page. Hence the use of the term "factoid". ~ S0CO 09:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Neutral P.O.V. is an oxymoron. Neutral is oblivious to point of view. Facts cannot be edited. Editing is subjective as is point of view. To ignore a fact for any reason, bias, fear of reprisal, is to pick a side, therefore it's not neutral. The whole premise is absurd. Like calling a piece of information a a factoid. Lay out the evidence. Be neutral, nd let readers decide what is real based on the evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deminizer13 (talk • contribs) 02:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Lay out the RELIVANT evidence. We don't support synthesis, but you don't seem to understand that. Listing off random facts does NOT help the article at all. The ONLY thing it does is push one POV. Unless you can use RS to put all of these facts together, they don't belong here. THAT is what we have been trying to tell you, and THAT is what you continue to ignore, to the point where I just want to call a moderation and get this argument banned for being frivelous. --Tarage (talk) 09:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

ceasefire? / pledge 2

Because the discussion is going off-topic, and becoming personal, I've explained my motives at my own talk page: User_talk:Xiutwel#my_intentions.

I think the debate is stuck. Other editors accuse me of ignoring their arguments, where I would say I do not ignore them but disagree. When I ask to point to which arguments I would have ignored that need addressing, there comes no response. On the other hand, I've repeatedly asked for quotations of policy. I got one once, but when I replied that that quotation was i.m.o. out of context, and despite repeating my call for quotations, it remained unanswered.
So both sides are accusing the other of not listening, now. I can only conclude that this debate has become stuck, and indeed needs outside help, or just a bit of rest. I will now go and prepare some content to be added, in my userspace. That may take a while.
Another pledge: I will not presume consensus silently. When I want to claim consensus, I promise to announce it on the talk page that I am assuming it, 24 hrs before editing the article accordingly. Because I know how annoying it is when you do not trust a "hostile" editor (mark the quotes) to leave your hard work be. (Remember the cruft deletion campaign?) So, you need not reply to my arguments for fear of me concluding consensus in stealth. Please only reply to help Misplaced Pages.
I still would like to reach consensus on this topic, and naturally I would still very much like this discussion to continue and develop into consensus. But I would agree with a pause for a couple of days or weeks, and if all agree we can put the above debates in archive-mode, as far as I'm concerned.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 10:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd like an indefinite pause — forever. By all means, please stop introducing proposals that violate policy so blatantly, especially when you’ve been informed of their violations by all experienced editors and administrators who are familiar with policy and involved in this page. In fact, your incessant (often epic poem-length) proposals have driven people away. Many involved in this talk page have simply ignored you the last couple of weeks, and don't expect that to stop if you return with these proposals, your good intentions aside. Unwillingness to adhere to policy is unlikely to garner much respect for your proposals in the future, and may prompt editors to revert such comments based on your pattern of disruptive behavior. Okiefromokla 19:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

On another note: I, personally, have repeatedly told you of policy violations and advised you to review specific policy pages. Others have done the same at every turn. You have been anything but deprived of opportunity to be made aware of policy. Okiefromokla 19:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I've always reread the policy when you linked to it. However I could not find it supporting your approach. That's why I was asking for quotations. Why didn't you give them?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 20:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

No. It has been explained to you more times than I can count. Litterally, over and over. Policy has also been quoted to you directly more than once. Your behavior has become disruptive and you will be reported if you continue. If you truly do not understand policy, ask questions on the pages of the respective policies. First, you may want to re-read the archives to find what other editors have told you about policy. Okiefromokla 21:50, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Okiefromokla, thank you for your message on my talk page! I've replied there.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: further additions should be made outside of the archived section.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Norman Mineta testimony issue

Request for Comments

Template:RFChist  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 23:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• Please respond all the way at the bottom of the main section: here.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to include a text on Norman Mineta's testimony (below) into the article:

discussion / insertion point

• in which subarticle and in which subsection should it go? I would say: Responsibility...
• Any amendments?

 &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

• For this article at this point it has no place to go. There needs to be a subsection under U.S. Government Response called "Immediate Executive Branch Response". You would need a different cite for this article as a cite from a 9/11 conspiracy website would be greeted quite harshly here. This issue is covered substantially in the 9/11 conspiracy theories article. The authors contextual arguments should be added to that article Edkollin (talk) 07:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC).

  How about: September 11, 2001 attacks#Immediate national response ?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 12:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable.

proposed text - open for amendment

new article subsection: Immediate Executive Branch Response

further discussion (Norman Mineta testimony issue)

I am on an enforced wiki break but dropped in to say that the only ref in your list that has anything to do with Mineta is the last one which is from a non reliable source. In addition, this information would be OR. There is not a reliable source that has reported on this. It is not relevant that one or the other of two people mixed up the time. - PTR.

Is it OR? Or is it good editing? There are reliable sources for all statements. There are no claims to what the contradiction could mean. When we can find no RS which has tackled this, we cannot conclude even that "one or the other has mixed up the time" - that would be OR. Nor is there a problem with SYNTHESIS, because that deals with making unrelated statements seem related. All here is very closely related: testimony and statements by White House officials on where they were, what they were doing, and how they were feeling. It kinda adds a personal touch to the article, don't you think?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's see — you apparently think that a contradiction between two individuals statements about the timing of events is related to the attacks in some meaningful way. Yet, you have no reliable source that connects these two facts, or even establishes them as an important or signifigant contradiction. It's really telling that this is exactly what you proposed earlier, and everyone told you was original research (which you ignored), and that your proposed section says next to nothing about the section title, and instead focuses on a whole bunch of minor details which no reliable source ascribes any importance to and which would probably be inappropriate even on the relevant subpage Aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The "personal touch" you are adding to the article is (suprise) laden with your POV on this issue, and is not supported by reliable sources. Nonetheless, I expect this rejoinder to bounce off you like literally all of the other ones, since you don't appear to listen to what people tell you and instead persist in truly novel interpretations of Misplaced Pages's guidelines which fly of our fundamental policies. --Haemo (talk) 03:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You should note that people saying "this doesn't work in principle" should not lead you to suggest "ah, but perhaps it works in this one application", which is exactly what you're doing here. --Haemo (talk) 20:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Haemo, let me address your points one by one: /X

1. a contradiction/statements ... related ... in some meaningful way. Yes, you are correct, that is what I think. I am not claiming that this meaningfulness is the majority view: it is, in fact, a significant minority viewpoint that this would be meaningful. I am sure we agree on that? I think it would be unappropriate/unnessary to source that meaningfulness in the article text, but I'll be happy to discuss it. /X
2. have no reliable source that connects these two facts. Well, both facts concern testimony on the whereabouts of President and Vice-President by themselves and their collegues. They are obviously related, and putting them together can in no way lead to any misrepresentation of facts, I believe. /X
3. establishes them as an important or significant contradiction I make no claim (in the proposed article text) about them being a significant contradiction. Viewing the amount of controversy among editors, and for brevity, I think we best leave it to our readers to decide whether this is significant, or whether one of them was mistaken or lying. As there has been no formal investigation into this, there can be no RS assessing this, and we can only mention that the 9/11 Report ignored the testimony of Mineta. /X
4. Your objections towards my style are noted, and I am willing to discuss this and other rejoinders you may have, with you on my talk page, if you so wish: but I do not want to confuse the topic here with personal discussions. Hope that is ok for you? /X
5. I apologize for my remark in answer to PTR above which I'm striking now, it's really not to the point. /X
6. You claim my edit is laden with POV. The facts are simply facts. When there exists a reliable source that Mineta was mistaken, we should add it. As far as I know, the matter lays unresolved and untreated by reliable sources. These facts are unimportant in one POV, and important in another. Misplaced Pages should remain neutral, and not take sides here by omitting that half of the facts that the minority POV finds important and that the RS avoid treating. In stead of removing all POV from the article, we may balance it, see: NPOV/FAQ. /X  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 09:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The facts are facts — but there are many relevant facts, and many irrelevant facts. Here, you have two irrelevant facts, with only your claim that it is "obvious" they are relevant to the article — when the standard is not what you think is relevant or related, but what reliable sources. You are, once again, trying to insert irrelevant and unimportant facts based solely on your POV that they are in some sense "important". You cannot even find reliable sources which discuss these facts as important to the "minority POV" — all you've got is your own original research and opinions. It's exactly what everyone told you above was wrongheaded, and violates our policies, and here we go again, indeed.--Haemo (talk) 21:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

See below.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Here we go again... --Tarage (talk) 09:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Mineta's timeline has been discussed at length in various places, as it contradicts most other peoples' accounts (and occasionally his own recollections, given at different times, contradict each other). Conspiracy theorists ferociously defend his timeline: everyone else is lying and Mineta is a walking atomic clock.

There are also pretty big questions in his recollections. E.g. much of it relies on the plane that was "50 miles out" being the one that hit Pentagon (how did the "young man" who gave the "50 miles out" notification know the destination of the plane?) Others describe a "X miles out" countdown of Flight 93 to Washington. Mineta confusing which plane the "young man" was referring to clears up most of the confusion.

Without reliable sources discussing the possibilities of whose recollection and assumptions are incorrect, making claims about it is WP:OR. Even if two statements are superficially true, putting them next to each other can mislead and make the reader dumber: The moon is yellow. Cheese is yellow. You do the math. Not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Weregerbil (talk) 10:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, Weregerbil! Let me quote some from there, and see if we can use it improve the new section-to-be-included:
CBS: "Within minutes , he was deep under the White House in a secret bunker, joining Vice President Cheney, helping to direct our defense, as the planes kept coming."
9-11 report: At some time between 10:10 and 10:15, a military aide told the Vice President and others that the aircraft was 80 miles out.
At approximately 10:30, the shelter started receiving reports of another hijacked plane, this time only 5 to 10 miles out. Believing they had only a minute or two, the Vice President again communicated the authorization to “engage or “take out” the aircraft.
Mineta, acc. 9-11 hearing 23-5-2003:...aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon...50 miles out ... I arrived at the PEOC at about 9:20 a.m.
Now, I am confused: crash 4 at Shanksville is estimated between 10:03 and 10:06. This is much later than crash 4. Is there some timezone problem? The suggestion that the dialogues " 80 miles" and "50 miles" are similar and therefore would likely refer to the same event, seems synthesis to me. The whole article you pointed to seems to be a lot of original thought, and synthesis, aimed to arrive at a conclusion. That Mineta witnessed evacuation in progress is not necessarily in contrast with (another?) formal evacuation order at 9:45. We must also consider that any party, including Mineta, could be lying or be mistaken. Has he revoked his testimony? I would really like to include some good RS material into this, but this is just too vague.
I conclude mentioning the testimonies of Mineta and Cheney is not misleading our readers, absent some RS (which then should be added) that Mineta's testimony is false.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

As you describe, there appears to be much confusion as to which planes are being talked about at each time. At various times there were even thought to be several more than four hijacked planes. Making claims about them, whether explicitly or by pulling the The moon is yellow. Cheese is yellow. trick, seems pretty clear WP:OR to me. Weregerbil (talk) 17:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

We all agree that from those two sentences, it does NOT follow that the moon is made of cheese. (And it would make no sense to put them together, then.)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

We've been saying this to him for literally months. Hopefully you can think of some new, and creative, way to say "this is inappropriate" which will ring some alarm bells. --Haemo (talk) 21:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

You claim I am trying to insert facts which are irrelevant, unimportant, or both. Correct?
Testimony, by members of the White House, on what they were doing on 911, in a paragraph about what was being done, on 911, can hardly be irrelevant. (When you disagree, Haemo, please give a direct guideline quotation for using the average opinion of reliable sources to establish the level of relevance for inclusion into an article.) That leaves the unimportant option. I do not see why this conflicting testimony should be unimportant. It might be. It might be not. So let's include the text. There is a significant minority present who thinks it might be important.
Have you noticed and agreed with the parts about Bush' testimony ?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

What important fact are you trying to describe? Weregerbil (talk) 18:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I have, repeatedly. "If the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research". If there is a dispute over whether a given fact is related to an article, i.e. if its importance is challenged then it "must be supported by a reliable source". Read your guidelines. --Haemo (talk) 19:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Your first quote appears to be from the NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH policy (you did not mention so). So is your second. You only quote a few words, however, and interpret them wrongly. This is synthesis in interpreting the guidelines, I would say. The whole bit "If there is a dispute over whether a given fact is related to an article" is a fantasy of yours.
Besides that, do you really want me to find a source which says that Norman Mineta's testimony about 911 to the 911 commission is related to 911? It will be difficult for me to find such an exact quote, since most people realise right away that these "might" be related. I must have misunderstood you??  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 10:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

hint, you might wanna try this one as well: "However, even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are also engaged in original research; see below." (same policy)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 10:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You might pause to think on this: why might you be yonly one who shares your novel interpretation of guidelines? Numerous people have pointed out why your interpretation is wrong, and why it's contradicted by the guidelines as plainly written — they've even been so kind as to give you examples of the Pandora's Box it would open. The relevance of a fact to a subject can be challenged. Material which is challenged must be supported by reliable sources. You cannot cite sources "directly related to the subject of the article" which support the importance or relevance of the facts listed, ergo, you are engaging in original research.

You have long demonstrated your inability to work within, understand, or interpret Misplaced Pages's guidelines. Instead, you have attempted to push the same POV on this issue for months on end — attempting many different tacts and arguments to try and get around policies and guidelines. When rebuffed, you have not attempted to understand why you are wrong, or contribute within guidelines. Instead, you go back to the drawing board and try to find another way to circumvent them. This is classic tendentious editing, and it is a waste of time for everyone involved.

So, here's a suggestion for you — all of your suggestions, and arguments, are at odds with policy or guidelines. Do not waste our time with them — go to the relevant policy pages and argue to change the wording there to endorse what you want to do on this article. That is the only way you will gain any traction here, and the only way you can make a suggestion without wasting everyone's time yet again. --Haemo (talk) 20:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no wish to change any guideline on this. It is WP:COMMON SENSE that we cannot leave out all the arguments from one side when being neutral. The only guideline I am seeking to change in order to be more clear is WP:DUE, because I feel a minimum weight should be more clearly described to avoid debates such as on this page.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I could cite primary sources (for viewpoint B) which cite the Norman Mineta testimony as important (to their view, mind you), and I could cite secondary sources which say the primary sources exist. That more than suffices?
But now this: "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." (WP:V). So for me to be able to provide the necessary sourcing: would you please define what you are challenging? (more than one is possible, or one I did not think of...)

1. "Norman Mineta gave the above mentioned testimony"
2. "his testimony related to 911"
3. "his testimony is possibly relevant to the whereabouts of Cheney on 911"
4. "his testimony is correct and true"

I did no research on this myself at all, I just copied the notable research of proponents of view B, which is fully supported by RS. I hope you are not WP:Wikilawyering here? Since you dislike mine, I am rather curious what your approach would be to make the article balanced, giving view B due treatment.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 22:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's see — I challenge that his testimony has any direct or established relevance or importance to the 9/11 attacks. It is barely a footnote, not more or less important than any of the other millions of footnotes established about that day. You cannot provide any reliable sources which establish it as important to anyone — not even conspiracy theorists. All you have is your original research that it's significant to a sizable minority of people. You claim you "don't want to change any guidelines" and instead argue that common sense supports your edits. It should be clear that when you're the only one arguing for your interpretation, it's not common sense, and you need to get the guidelines changed instead. Also — don't censor my comments. Your conduct on this talk page is directly relevant to this discussion — I am not alone in telling you this, yet you do not heed our warnings. Perhaps you should? --Haemo (talk) 23:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• We have one member of government contradicting another on the timeline which is crucial to the matter of why the planes were not intercepted, which could have saved at least 125 Pentagon employees. Not important? You are using WP:LAWYER to deny adding that information, claiming it is not important. You claim that contradicting witness reports are not important: without having yourself a RS for that claim, but asserting I must provide a RS saying, speaking for itsself, it is important, period, not just "might be important" or "is important according to 911-critics", mentioning e.g. Loose Change which does say so. Just because not much RS are willing to stick their necks out and point at this, we cannot add valuable info? This can never be the intent of the guidelines. And you are accusing me of breaking most of them with this edit: SYNTH, RS, OR, V - the lot. We're stuck then.
  I am requesting comments from other users on:

  "Should the edit be included to make the article more NPOV, or need RS be given themselves agreeing with the (minority) viewpoint that the matter has importance before we can include this? "

   &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 23:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The onus is on editors trying to include information to show that it is relevant or important. You have just admitted that you cannot produce reliable sources to support this. That's all that needs to be said on this matter. --Haemo (talk) 00:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• Not yet. And I am disputing I would need RS to establish importance for inclusion, the NPOV policy mandates it. And here is what Norman Mineta has to say on this (in June 2007): the conversation he overheard was before American Airlines went into the Pentagon.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  Hahaha, yeah, right. And I would like to include the fact that on September 11 1999, the price of the Treasury's benchmark 30-year bond rose 6.87 1/2 cents per $1000 invested. I can source that factoid to reliable sources too! Neutral point of view demands that we give equal weight to the opinions of my Federal Reserve theory! --Haemo (talk) 00:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  Will you take back this bad analogy, or stand by it?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  It's not an "analogy" it's an example of exactly what you are arguing to include, with exactly the same level and type of support. --Haemo (talk) 01:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  There exists a significant minority, with prominent adherents, regarding the view that Mineta's testimony is significant. Can you claim the same for your theory? If you can, and your fact is part of that theory, I believe we can include it?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  Provide reliable sources supporting this claim. Oh wait, you can't. --Haemo (talk) 01:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The discrepancy between the Commission's report and the Mineta testimony (and the other evidence supporting it) - see this article in "The Canadian": http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2008/01/22/02147.html - is important. Something like two years ago, the New York bureau chief of the Washington Post emailed me back, writing "You're absolutely right, someone should have found Minetta and tried to figure out how he sees and hears Cheney and why the 9/11 Commission ignored him". He also wrote: "I agree that there are many and important unanswered questions and contradictions hanging out there. And I wish that we, the Post, had looked much more carefully at the NORAD/FAA contradictions early on". That amounts to acknowledging that the RS in question had not done everything it should have done to find out the facts. Well, apparently they still haven't asked Mineta or looked at the contradictions. Perscurator (talk) 00:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this sentence is relevant: "In december 2001 the President declared that being in Sarasota, Florida, he had watched the first airplane strike live on television, just prior to entering a classroom to monitor a childrens' reading programme." Bush probably meant that he saw the first tower burning after the strike. Perscurator (talk) 00:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No, he said he saw the airplane hit the tower, thought "what a terrible pilot", had no time to think about it, and went into the classroom. Where he learned about the second strike, and waited another 5-10 minutes, 'not wanting to disquiet the children'.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

That might be a case of poor recollection or an imprecise expression. Perhaps he just meant that he saw the first tower on fire on TV after the airpline had struck. Perscurator (talk) 13:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, it can be caused by almost anything. The point is, it can also be caused by him lying. I'm not saying he is, I'm saying this needs clearing up. And ignoring it is not helping. Someone once claimed that the matter had been cleared, without providing a source though. I would like to have that source, than we can mention that next to his account, and let the reader decide where he is lying and where he is telling the truth. /X 16:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• The point is, when a member of government makes a statement that conflicts with that of another member of government, that is automatically significant for inclusion, even when most reliable sources miss it, suspecting no harm. Even the fact that it is ignored in the final report, makes it more relevant to this article, not less. Like the other thing the report ignored: the fact that WTC7 collapsed. "Just forgot to mention that!" I hear nobody argue that we should remove that collapse from this article? (I am not willing to do so just to make a point, but it would make sense to follow the report on both matters in the same fashion.)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 16:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• Here is another source for it: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42754-2002Jan26_3.html

America's Chaotic Road to War
Bush's Global Strategy Began to Take Shape in First Frantic Hours After Attack
By Dan Balz and Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, January 27, 2002; Page A01 

If this mention in this article does not make clear its significance for the subject of this article, what would?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 16:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• and another SPTimes 4-7-4  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 17:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• confusing: zero hits 509 hits with nr 1 being the testimony 22.100 hits of which only 1 RS?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 17:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• discussion of David Ray Griffin's video  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 18:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• diary of Japanese politician  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 18:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Florida Executive Order No. 01-262

• re: September 11, 2001 attacks#Immediate national response

Where can we find Florida Executive Orders? This order is alleged to have declared a state of emergency, which would not have been lifted.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 12:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a good question. I have not looked at that issue in a long time but from what I remember those were long standing orders for hurricanes and things like that that had to be resigned periodically to keep them in effect. The resigning four days before 9/11 aroused suspicion of prior knowledge by Jeb Bush. I would do the usual Google and 9/11 conspiracy websites like 9/11truth.org prisonplanet.com etc. Edkollin (talk) 03:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree it is probably nothing, but it might be that 01-161 was a general one, and 01-162 was related to 911? So if anyone knows whether these are published on the web...?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Al Qaeda?

Shouldn't we be saying that it's believed that Al Qaeda were responsible, not that they ARE? ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 01:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

IMHO, no. AQ claimed credit and no one else has. No reasonable argument has been made otherwise, only wild conjecture. — BQZip01 —  01:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course it should say "it's believed" rather than that they ARE. In fact, every fact in WP which is disputed should be reported that way. It's really up to the people that believe one story or the other to insist that WP represent their beliefs as FACT rather than belief, if they feel that it is helpful to readers. But really, who, besides BQZip01, believes that doing that encourages people to educate themselves? So change it. I'll support you. Where is the spirit of sticking it to the man, guys? Dscotese (talk) 04:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not based on "sticking it to the man", it is based on reliable sources who report the responsibility of Al Qaeda as fact. --Haemo (talk) 04:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

reliable sources report the responsibility of Al Qaeda as fact. However there is no undisputed evidence of responsibility. What takes precedence? RS or facts? Wayne (talk) 09:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no indisputed evidence that the moon is not made of cheese. Verifiability, not truth. --Haemo (talk) 19:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

We use RS for sourcing OUR statements. For sourcing facts, and for sourcing opinions. Not for presenting their opinion as a fact. (That's how I see it, but perhaps not the other editors on this page.)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

So is it Osama bin Ladin's opinion that he was behind it? --Golbez (talk) 19:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Controversial claims should always be attributed, so you are absolutely right.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Is al-Qaida's responsibility for the attacks really such a controversial claim? Only in the sense that proponents of fringe beliefs assert that the mainstream view is controversial. Fortunately, the question is moot: there is already a reference in the article for it. Currently it's reference #2, and it's in the second sentence of the lead. I'm surprised no-one noticed it before now. Sheffield Steel_stalk 19:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a controversial claim, it's just a CLAIM, and not a FACT as far as I can tell. Many people CLAIM to have seen elvis recently, many people CLAIM to have killed JFK. None of them however have provided proof, and that is exactly what seems to be lacking in this case. It has nothing to do with "fringe beliefs", it's just a wording issue. The reference doesn't prove anything, it just supports my initial question. Maybe they did do it, maybe they didn't, I don't really give a damn, I'm just trying to support wikipedia by bringing possible errors to the editors' attention. If someone can show that it's been proven they were responsible then fine, keep it how it is, if not then lets change it. ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 01:24, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that while you'll be hard-pressed to find reliable sources asserting that Elvis is still alive, we have scads of sources discussing al-Qaeda's involvement. The belief that the 19 hijackers were in fact not responsible for the collapse of the towers is indeed a fringe theory, and is treated as such. // Chris 01:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• "the question is moot: there is already a reference" (Sheffield, above) The point is not whether or not the claim is made, the point is whether it is an 'undisputed fact' or a 'claim'. A RS which treats it as "undisputed fact" does not make it one. When large parts of the world, even in America, even former ministers of G8 countries, doubt it, it is logically a (disputable) claim. So the starter of this topic, Badharlick, is right. And the article needs fixing.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 10:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• If you can show a significant quorum of reliable sources supporting the view that it is not a fact, then your point has some merit. Otherwise, you're just pushing undue weight with an appeal to authority to attempt to shore up your argument. --Haemo (talk) 20:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

  Question: Are you now making the statement that there is no significant minority?

  By the way, here are some that describe the debate without asserting it is a fact: (I guess it is not often that RS would explicitely state that something is not a fact but disputed, more implicitely. The most vocal was the Zembla documentairy.)

  1. Trouw 31-7-2006 (Dutch)
  2. NOS 20-5-5 (Dutch)
  3. Volkskrant, gepubliceerd op 07 juni 2006 15:34, bijgewerkt op 31 augustus 2006 16:49 (Dutch)
  4. Zembla 09-2006 (Dutch)
  5. RTL 2006 (Dutch)
  6. Telegraaf 25-6-2006 (Dutch)
  7. Over 40% doubts who was behind 911 (Flemish)
  8. 21 augustus 2007 (Flemish)

  Here is Google translate: click.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 23:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• Here are some foreign language sources which you must rely on machine translation to read. Oh, they don't dispute the mainstream opinion — they just don't explicitly say it is a fact. Sounds good to me! --Haemo (talk) 00:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

  ZEMBLA asserted that Danny Jowenko, a leading demolition expert, had no doubt whatsoever that WTC7 was demolished. They went on to provide no evidence or suggestion that or why or how he might be mistaken in this opinion. They suggested he was right. Is this not the same as expressing doubt at the official version implicitely?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 01:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• In other words, if a news source says "So and so claims X" without immediately refuting X, the news source is reporting that they endorse or believe X. I think even you can see the problem with that. --Haemo (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• I will not hold against you that you cannot follow me here, since you are no Dutch speaker, and cannot check the nuances of tone yourself.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 05:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• I'd just note that if you have to rely on "tone" to get an endorsement, you're probably stretching. --Haemo (talk) 05:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It's in the Trouw article: Maker Kees Schaap maakte onlangs in deze krant duidelijk dat hij de samenzweringstheorieën niet zonder meer afwijst.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• I repeat and not for the first time my question above:
  Question: Are you now making the statement that there is no significant minority?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 05:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me handle that, no....there is no significant minority. You haven't shown one, and repeating yourself over and over doesn't make it so. A short list of sources you read meaning into does not a significant minority make. RxS (talk) 06:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for stating that, RxS. But I would like to know Haemo's opinion. (You're not his PR spokesperson, are you?)  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I wrote a FAQ to answer this one... --Haemo (talk) 06:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No I'm not, please answer my question in the Andreas von Bülow issue section related to this, thanks. RxS (talk) 06:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Getting back to the point, can someone show me the proof that they were responsible?▫Bad▫harlick♠ 06:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC) And by the way, I believe that moon rocks have proven that the moon is not made entirely of cheese. ;) ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 06:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

We're not in the business of proving things, we report what reliable sources say, and they are pretty unanimous on this point. RxS (talk) 07:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Except that you leave out the parts they report and of which you think they think it is not important. The RS are assuming the mainstream account, not proving it, and it should be attributed. If they had proved it, they would have dealt extensively with Osama bin Laden writing with the wrong hand, Mineta contradicting Cheney, 3 ministers questioning the account, etc. They assume and thus we should attribute.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

We report what reliable sources report...."Proof" or "Truth" doesn't enter into it. If you think reliable sources are leaving things out you need to take it up with them. Perhaps that's the source of your confusion. RxS (talk) 21:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

PS: You think we landed on the moon?! --Haemo (talk) 07:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Al Qaeda's claim to responsibility should be mentioned as just that (Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attacks). What is the problem with saying it in that fashion? There are similar terrorists attacks (e.g. Ahvaz bombings in Iran), in which dozens of terrorist organizations took claim for those attacks. Certainly we can't PROVE which one actually was responsible, but the most noteworthy case should be given its proper weight per WP:POV. Misplaced Pages does not give undue weight to fringe theories. -Rosywounds (talk) 21:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Where are the links?

Why are there no links to discussion of the conspiracy theories in the Conspiracy Theory section? They're all listed (I think) under 9/11 Truth Movement. I'll add that link. Dscotese (talk) 04:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The very first link in that section is to the 9/11 conspiracy theories article. --Haemo (talk) 04:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

"not including the 19 hijackers"

A line currently says "There were 2,974 fatalities, not including the 19 hijackers: 246 on the four planes (no one on board of the hijacked aircrafts survived), 2,603 in New York City in the towers and on the ground, and 125 at the Pentagon." Wouldn't it be better to say that "There were 2,993 fatalities: 265 on the four planes (including the 19 hijackers. No one on board of the hijacked aircrafts survived), 2,603 in New York City in the towers and on the ground, and 125 at the Pentagon."

Were the hijackers not fatalities and did they not die on the aircraft? What is the point if exluding them from the list of deaths? JayKeaton (talk) 08:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I like your suggestion. But we would always mention them separetely in either case, to be clear to the reader whether we were counting them.
The present wording is justified because according to the widely believed official versions, the hijackers intended to die for their cause. In any army clash, you would name casualties on both sides separately, not together. (Which is a shame, in a sense, because they were all human lives, also the alleged hijackers. And since some of the pilots among the hijackers could hardly fly, it is not impossible that they themselves too might have been hijacked and killed innocently.) But to be realistic, I think it can stay like it is, for the time being.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 11:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe those weren't even planes. --Golbez (talk) 17:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Several of the official FBI hijackers* are still alive so they should not be added to the death toll:

• http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/21/september11.usa http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/21/afghanistan.september112 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/sep/02/september11.usa Why include them in the death toll if they are still slive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.76.96.16 (talk) 18:00, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Andreas von Bülow issue

proposed insertion point

conspiracy theories section

proposed text (amend, please)

references preview (only the last one counts)

1. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/20/wbulo20.xml Telegraph, 20 Nov 2003

note

still to do

add the French minister of Housing and her opinion. Any comments?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 00:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not add this to 9/11 conspiracy theories instead? --Haemo (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Because WP:NPOV says this article should be balanced. Of course, it can/should also be included over there.

• Yukihisa Fujita, a member of Japan's second largest political party, questions the Japanese efforts in the War on Terror because of the many questions that remain about the September 11 attacks.

Let's see. Perhaps you can tell why this material is inappropriate for the article? I'm sure you can but don't care — after all, undue weight is just a pesky sidenote which have decided you can ignore. --Haemo (talk) 01:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• If you are trying to troll ... it's not befitting an admin.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 05:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• No, it's a vain attempt to stop myself from going insane by repeating myself over and over again. --Haemo (talk) 06:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is what a former German research minister (whatever that is) said 4 years ago relevant here? RxS (talk) 06:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I noticed this same question first in the section below, and answered it there. You may copy your question and answer to here, if you prefer.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

removal of POV tags - again

Dear friends, fellow wikipedians,

you can wikilawyer all you like: removing this sourced material (#Andreas von Bülow issue) makes the article even more extreme POV. I also object to the removing of the POV tags.

The text which was removed before I placed the tags did not begin to balance this article. What do you want with this article? A total fantasy, copying the fantasies we read in the newspapers, who omit all the facts they themselves had once painstakingly dug up, and then conveniently forgotten? Do you want to just repeat what authority says, stifeling dissent as in the USSR or in China? With editors such as you, we need not fear any government dictatorship. You, the people, are the proletarian dictatorship already. It is sad that you think you are upholding policy this way.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 03:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

 &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 03:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The only one wikilawyering is you. Numerous people have told why your insertion of this material is wrong. You have ignored this. But, feel free to rant some more about about we're "suppressing dissent" and become a dictatorship akin to China or the USSR. It might surprise you to realize that policy is not designed to support your crusade, and relies on reliable sources — no matter how much you think they are biased and suppress the facts. --Haemo (talk) 03:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Policy has a purpose. Omitting half of the relevant evidence can never be the purpose in a scientific process which writing an encyclopia is. And numerous people stating the same agreed upon misinterpretation of policy is not policy. It's noise.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 04:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No, what's noise is the hundreds of thousands of bytes of policy-violations you have tried to pass off as a reasonable interpretation of our guidelines — which plain English, and numerous other editors have told is wrong. You take the facile, and telling, opinion that if there are two viewpoints on an issue, that both have "half the relevant evidence" and should be given equal weight — once again merely demonstrating that you still don't understand what undue weight means. But, then again, you've never balked before at displaying classically tendentious editing practices. In the light of this, you might reflect on the notion that purpose of policy is to prevent people from pushing their POV on Misplaced Pages — which might explain why you're having such problems inserting the Truth™ into articles. --Haemo (talk) 04:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

pushing their POV... Maybe this is an appropriate time to ask you what the POV of the current article is, and whether you believe that to be NPOV compliant?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 05:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you know my answer to that. --Haemo (talk) 06:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I would not ask if I knew. So: is the POV a) neutral b) that the government account is true c) that there was an inside job (obviously not) or d) something else. And question 2: how do you reconcile (b) with NPOV, if that is your answer.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

That would be (a). --Haemo (talk) 07:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Do I correctly interpret that as "the article is WP:NPOV representing, fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." ? If so, at which points/sentences is the article representing the minority view?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It is fairly obvious that what Xiutwel meant by "half the relevant evidence" was that it is unacceptable to completely ignore one side of a controversy. This does not necessarily mean that both sides should get equal weight. You have misrepresented what he said.

That knowledge, as it is disseminated by whomever constitute "reliable sources" in a given society, is partly shaped by political considerations should not come as a surprise to people who think deeply about questions of fairness in these matters. In fact, by way of example, I have just been reading Karl Popper on how Hegel, in his opinion, was a charlatan who only became influential because his writings served the interests of the Prussian state. Interestingly, this was in the same book as Popper's rejection of the "conspiracy theory of society" which is cited in the conspiracy theory article to support the argument that "conspiracy theories" are automatically invalid. Michel Foucault took this further and said, in effect, that power is truth. Foucault's critique has been one of the most influential elements of postmodern thought and should therefore be taken very seriously. Constitutionally of course, Misplaced Pages has difficulty dealing with the politicisation of thought and knowledge because of the problems it brings up about how to balance articles. Nevertheless there would be absolutely nothing wrong in at least being willing to acknowledge and discuss the issue with a view to seeing what can be done to address this dilemma. The fact that you and so many other editors are completely unwilling to do this suggests very strongly that it is you who are POV pushing at least as much as those others you so liberally accuse of trying to push their own agenda. ireneshusband (talk) 19:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Except that there really isn't a controversy. No political controversy, no academic or scientific controversy, there's no journalistic editorial controversy. There's no controversy at all among reliable sources or relevant academic community. There's one here of course, but that doesn't count.

Your comments about fairness, politics and power as regards to Misplaced Pages belong in a more general discussion space, the Village Pump or the mailing list maybe. RxS (talk) 20:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

A national poll taken during the summer found that 16 percent of Americans believed hidden explosives aided the collapse of the buildings. More than a third believed the U.S. government instigated the attacks or decided not to stop them.

That's why scientist Thomas W. Eagar, initially reticent, is willing to do interviews now.

"I've told people that if (the argument) gets too mainstream, I'll engage in the debate," said Eagar, a materials engineer at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "It is getting more mainstream, and Steve Jones is responsible for that."

Your friend Haemo seems to think very highly of Thomas Eagar's credentials as a reliable source, so no doubt you do too. Obviously Eagar seems to think there is a controversy involving, among other things, a difference of opinion between himself and another academic. Therefore please do not repeat yet again your absurd claim that there is "no controversy at all" among "reliable sources" or "relevant academic community". The world and his dog know that this is untrue and it is shameful that I should ever have had to produce a "reliable source" to prove something so obvious.

As for what you say about my comments regarding power: No, they do not belong elsewhere. Misplaced Pages policy already has some provisions for dealing with such issues in the way that I have suggested. They are Common sense and Ignore all rules. If you have good reason to think that common sense has no place here, then please explain yourself. ireneshusband (talk) 11:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

details in the conspiracy theories section, yes or no?

How come, Haemo, you allow sourced details pro debunking but you do not allow sourced details pro conspiracy theories? Is that not against NPOV ?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 04:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not a debunking, it explains the relevant opinions on the theories. Summary style encourages this explicitly. --Haemo (talk) 04:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

And what is the difference with mentioning two former ministers who oppose their view? Are their opinions not relevant? And the anonymous experts nobody ever heard of are relevant? Can you explain?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 04:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Read summary style. The section is supposed to summarize the subarticle, and (as the lead does on the article) it includes the important objections to these theories. The views of the majority of engineers are explicitly mentioned in the lead of the subarticle. The two former ministers are not. --Haemo (talk) 04:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The views of the majority of engineers are NOT explicitly mentioned. The text says "the structural engineering literature" and refers to Bazant's article, which is the view of a single structural engineer and does not address the opinions of others, but only that of the paper's authors. I have tried to address this problem in the past, but someone has reverted it. Dscotese (talk) 00:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

• sigh.. ok, I will go and add the edit in the subarticle first, then.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 05:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
• done. So can we now agree to include both or delete both from the Summery style section ?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 06:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No, why is the 4 year old opinion of a former research minister relevant? RxS (talk) 06:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Xiutwel, this wasn't a rhetorical question, thanks. RxS (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Why? He still holds the opinion. (I met him in 2006 in fact. Where he also admitted, he would never have said anything about it whilst in office.) A counter question: a thought experiment. Suppose the President came forward and admitted advanced knowledge. Suppose the press reported that, litterally in all the newspapers. And suppose then, after that, no member of Congres, no journalist ever asked him another question about it. Just business as usual. Would this article be allowed to mention that fact, without the RS to support its ongoing significance?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This is irrelevant speculation: this scenario you just described has not taken place, and any analysis of it would be pure conjecture which varied from person to person. ~ S0CO 09:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

That's what a thought experiment is. Something more abstract, less political, then: suppose the Geological Society issues a press release in January 2009 that the Earth is flat. And suppose no one ever mentions that again in any RS, after the first reporting. Would Misplaced Pages be allowed to include this fact, or no?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 15:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You still haven't answered my question. Private conversations don't have any meaning here, so...why is the 4 year old opinion of a former research minister relevant? RxS (talk) 17:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

What I find really strange is that in a so tiny section about "conspiracy theories" about 30% of the space is given to the alleged opinion of the community of the ingeneer about a particular specific theory that is even not cited at all!! I mean: it is correct to not cite this specific theory alone because it is not a relevant or prominent theory and if we cite it we should also cite other more relevant ones. But if we have correctly decided not to mention that theory it makes no sense to cite opinions about it.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 13:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, that's one of the reasons I thought is should be balanced or removed. It is a rebuttal of a censored theory, really.  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 15:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be removed unless we decide to have a more detailed section mentioning that particular theory and therefore all the other claims that are more relevant.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 16:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Since the article is now protected, we'll need a consensus on whether or not to include the POV tags that Xiutwel added and which were removed by Haemo, Strangelove, Mongo, and some others. So who feels that NPOV is not disputed in the Conspiracy Theories and Immediate National Response section. If you feel that it is not disputed, please explain away my own and Xiutwel's contention that those sections do not have a neutral enough POV to be left without the tag. Dscotese (talk) 01:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Because when you say "those sections do not have a neutral enough POV", what you really mean is that they don't have enough CT content. For that to be true, there would have to be a genuine controversy about it within reliable sources. There isn't. To repeat myself: There isn't a controversy. No political controversy, no academic or scientific controversy, there's no journalistic editorial controversy. There's no controversy at all among reliable sources or relevant academic community. So there is no need for POV tags. To add them would be (and is) POV pushing. RxS (talk) 01:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think they have enough CT content. Missing are facts that are not explained by the mainstream account. The minority viewpoint can generally be characterized as part of the 9/11 Truth Movement, which holds some conspiracy theories, so I can see how you make the connection. However, whether you consider mention of unexplained facts as "CT content" or "Mysteries of the 9/11 attacks" doesn't matter. The POV dispute is that there are two conflicting viewpoints (mainstream is right vs mainstream is incomplete/wrong) and one of them is not represented as well as it should be. I suppose that finding a consensus about that means getting around those whose POV is the better represented one. Dscotese (talk) 03:35, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

But the only dispute we'd recognize is one reported by reliable sources. That's why I keep pointing out there is no dispute of that nature. If this was about Health care or the war in Iraq then there would be debate to report on. But in this case there isn't. There isn't a "mainstream is right vs mainstream is incomplete/wrong" dichotomy, because it doesn't exist among reliable sources...not in academia, public/political debate, not among experts working in their fields. If they don't report it, we don't report it. No matter how much you think the mainstream is wrong about something...that's not why we're here. We report the "POV" of mainstream reliable sources (including significant minority positions). CT is not a significant minority position because minority positions show up in public/political debate, in reliable sources or the relevant academic communities. There is no CT debate in any of those areas. RxS (talk) 03:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

reverse method

May be we can reverse the process: in stead of making some balanced text, and arguing over the validity of its sources, let's turn it around. We have this documentary of Dutch TV txt NL which interview Meacher and Von Bülow. English subtitles are provided. We could then attribute all the claims that are made in it directly to the speakers, and then include the summery of this video into the article. How would that be? This solves WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:SYN, WP:COMMONSENSE, WP:NOR - did I miss any?  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

• I would appreciate a response from those that opposed the previous two issues...  &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 15:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Or this one:

 &#151; Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 15:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I've been out of commission with work the last few days, and have lost track of your comments. This seems to be related to other recent proposals that are still under discussion above. Inserting so many proposals simultaneously, or very close together, and in so many subsections is really confusing and probably limits the number of responders you will get, and the number of people who will understand fully what you are asking. You should probably consider revising your delivery method. Okiefromokla 20:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Since we're on that subect, you might also try to reduce the number of horizonal breaks. They can confuse people further. Thanks, Okiefromokla 20:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't Comspiracy Theories section link to the 9/11 Truth Movement?

The beginning of the "9/11 Conspiracy Theories" article says this at the beginning of the second paragraph:

Many of the conspiracy theories have been voiced by members of the "9/11 Truth Movement," a name adopted by organizations and individuals who question the mainstream account of the attacks.

Certainly, the 9/11 Truth movement should be mentioned and linked to in the summary, no? Since Haemo provided no reason for claiming that my addition gives undue weight, I'm reverting his revert. Haemo, if you'd like to revert for undue weight, please only revert the edits that you feel violate undue weight rather than previous ones that address other issues, such as the removal of POV tags. Dscotese (talk) 01:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Because they don't (and can't) speak for everyone who believes in this stuff. It'd be undue weight to single them out, bordering on promotion. RxS (talk) 01:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

And why is being able to speak for everyone who believes in this stuff an important qualification for inclusion in the summary but not the main sub-article? Do you think the sub article itself should also not mention or link to the 9/11 Truth Movement? What others are there that could be included in order not to single them out? Dscotese (talk) 01:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Because the section discusses the theories generally. --Haemo (talk) 01:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

And it shouldn't even be mentioned there. Remind me to fix that, thanks. RxS (talk) 02:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

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