Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:40, 27 July 2005

Tools

Post proposed tools for discussion here.

General systematization

• There are many thousands of disambiguation pages. They're all in various states of conformance to the Manual of Style, and they all see different amounts of traffic. Thus, we need a way to:
  • Systematize, so that we know which disambigs need work and which are done.
  • Prioritize, so that we can work on the most oft-used pages first, and leave out-of-the-way ones until later.

--Smack (talk) 03:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Post comments here

Edit link script

• Fixing links to disambigs is mind-numbing. In my experience, after half an hour of fixing links, my head starts to swim and I have to sit and vegetate for a while. If I interrupt my progress periodically to fix pages that obviously have other problems, I can fix about forty pages in that time. To me, that's not satisfactory. It would be nice to have a bot, similar to the one used for the Wiki Syntax project. This bot would do three things:
  1. Identify every page that links to a disambig page (using Category:Disambiguation and Special:Whatlinkshere)
  2. Search through each of these pages for every link to a disambig
  3. Generate a link to an edit window in which every one of these links has been suitably marked, maybe like this: ].

--Smack (talk) 03:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I was partly mistaken. I'd forgotten that there were two different ways of doing things for Wiki Syntax.

1. For the part of the project that dealt with redirects, a script generated an edit screen with the edit suggested (like this). This is easier to work with, but it may be too resource-intensive to do make this work right for pages that (unlike redirects) are liable to be edited at any time for other purposes.
2. For the rest of the project, a script just listed problems in a page (like thus). If option 1 doesn't work out, this would be the way to go. However, I would very much like to have all of the problems in any given page listed in the same place, so that we don't have to edit it five times to fix five bad links.

--Smack (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

P.S: Thank you, Triddle! --Smack (talk) 15:06, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

P.P.S: Triddle seems to want to move this to Misplaced Pages:Computer_help_desk/Smack_20050724. --Smack (talk) 22:03, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Scope addition suggested

3. addition of usage notes to disambiguation discussion pages

Several of the dab templates for use in the main article space do not have clear usage guidelines/suggestions associated with them. This could be rectified.

4. monitoring of dab-template repertoire

The template I listed on the main page which does not appear in the Template Messages: General listing is {{TLAdisambig}}, which I ran across accidentally about a month ago. This WikiProject could take stewardship of the representation of disambiguation-related templates in the Template Messages page set and actively contribute to discussions regarding deletion and creation of templates in this space.

Thoughts?

Courtland 04:36, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

3. That's a worthy task, but from what I know about wiki convention, it's something that should just get straightened out on a talk page somewhere. That said, we can create a dedicated talk page for it here, but the title would probably be a little frightening (something like Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Disambiguation/templates).

4. Also a worthy task, since disambig-related templates are among the most important, but I'm not sure that it belongs here. The two tasks that this project has at present are thrown together a bit haphazardly, but they're similar at least because they're both clear-cut and require a lot of work. This one is nebulous and requires comparatively less work. IMHO, I think that could be a separate project, but I really don't know. --Smack (talk) 01:58, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Agreed .. it's a fuzzy activity, more a matter of being a good wikicitizen than anything else (the creator of the template should place it on the index page in general, I think). Courtland 03:07, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Page titling

Another possible expansion of scope: correcting page titling. Some dab pages are named Glop (disambiguation) but have Glop as a redirect, or vice versa. This might be too big a can of worms, though.

And then there's the fact that Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Uranus are primary topic pages but Saturn, Neptune, and Pluto are dab pages. (Mercury is a special case because of the element.) I put Venus on Requested Moves to move it to "Venus (planet)" (and turn Venus into a dab) and that idea got soundly trounced, so probably Saturn, Neptune, and Pluto should become planet pages.

Also, some pages titled Glop (1989 movie) have a dablink to Glop (disambiguation) even though it's not necessary.

I'm thrilled that somebody started this project, however, and am eager to dig in! —Wahoofive (talk) 07:33, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm mildly in favor of adding this to our list of tasks.

Why is that form of titling a big can of worms? User:Jnc promoted it here, and I've been using it semi-regularly.

Second, I'm confused by the Venus thing. Venus has around 1000 links, and Venus (mythology) has around 175. Some of the reasons cited on the relevant talk page are against policy. --Smack (talk) 01:58, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

What I was referring to regarding the planets is the inconsistency; some planets have a dab page at the primary title while others go directly to the planet. The decision on Venus is already made. —Wahoofive (talk) 03:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

_ _ It is a mistake to assume such inconsistency is a problem, just bcz they are all planets. Saturn and Mercury are both cars; should we ensure that the subject matters of Saturn and Mercury are consistent with other cars or with other planets? The attempt to discover all the types of things that should "own" the corresponding un-qualified titles will inevitably result in contradictions because there is no logic to which types (planets, mythological figures, cars, & many more) can "overlap" by sharing a name; i am convinced the only feasible approach to these cases is title by title, disregarding all supposed precedents in the form of things of the same kind.

_ _ In fact, our whole concept of dabs rests on the fact looking a topic up with an unqualified name works whether or not that title is a dab, an article with at Top-of-Page dab leading directly or via a dab to the sense you want, or an article on the sense you want. How would inconsistency among planets disrupt that?

_ _ Don't get hung up wanting order for its own sake, where the information we are representing is just not that orderly.
--Jerzy·t 08:25, 2005 July 21 (UTC)

indicating agreement with User:Jerzy on points made Courtland 12:35, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. --Smack (talk) 01:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Planets being inconsistent with each other because of title differences: not an issue. We can't help that planets like to share names.

The big can of worms with Glop redirecting to Glop (disambiguation): very big issue. We should be looking to rid that. Neonumbers 10:47, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I follow where you are leading ... there are sometimes reasons for having such a redirection when there is not clear primacy of a term's use over another; it's not terribly common, but it does happen. Agreed? Courtland 13:42, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

trying to think of a good example .. how about Pool (User:Ceyockey)

Suggested way for individuals to start

A good start to work out personal processes for page updates related to this WikiProject might be for each participant to go through their own disambiguation page-related contributions and work on those first. However, looking through one's contributions list is tedious; is there a way the database can be interrogated directly to identify the set of pages I'm referring to here? Courtland 03:15, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

as a follow-up, I'm finding that some of the things I did when I first started working in Misplaced Pages in the area of disambiguation look really weird to me now; fixing them (cleaning up after myself) is non-trivial but is a good way to think through the details of the style guidelines. Courtland 13:46, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Maintenance

I was glad to see this project get going, because I've been quietly been working on fixing up dab pages for a while. One of the things that's been really frustrating to me is to put in a lot of time fixing up a real mess of a page, only to have somebody come along the next day and start undoing all the work you did. I think we need some standardized edit tag to point people to an explanation of what this project is all about; hopefully that will both disuade un-fixer-uppers, and help enlist new people into the project. RoySmith 12:50, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

How about

Disambiguation cleanup -- you can help!

—Wahoofive (talk) 22:56, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Works for me. RoySmith 23:39, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest about being careful about taking ownership of the pages that we as a group edit. The notion that changes to a page might be made after we've ourselves made changes is part of the "Misplaced Pages experience", being both a strength and a weakness. The label "un-fixer-upper" is a moniker that is close to being inconsistent with the Misplaced Pages concept of "assume good faith" and puts changing pages nearly on par with vandalism.

• If the creation of this maintenance-indicator template takes place, I would suggest it be put in the talk space and not in the article space.
• Further, I would suggest that variation in format/style within the guidelines that are codified is both acceptable and to be encouraged. This is the way toward definition of better guidelines, both new definition and dropping superfluous or unhelpful guidelines. (this is a general statement and not restricted to the present discussion)
• If we truly believe there are certain disambiguation pages that should not be changed, then we should consider the step of protecting them from edits. I can envision some such pages where minor changes can have major POV impact or there has been an edit war for primacy of a term.

Regards, Courtland 12:44, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that I owned the page, or that I minded anybody else editing it. But, the Manual of Style gives specific, objective guidance (and, yes, allows people to break the rules if appropriate) on the right way to do it. If we can find a way to make it obvious to future editors of the page that the MoS exists, and encourage them to read it, that would be a good thing. RoySmith 14:49, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The way I indicate a MoS wholesale change (-wiki, complete re-layout, whatever) is by using

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)

as the edit summary. Most explicit. Josh Parris ✉ 22:55, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I actually like Wahoofive's

Disambiguation cleanup -- you can help!
Disambiguation cleanup -- ]!

better. The invitation to other people to come on board is useful, and it follows the same style as other cleanup projects I've seen. RoySmith 11:28, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I stole the idea from some other cleanup project.—Wahoofive (talk) 17:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Depending on how much work I've done on a page in the last few days I'll add something like "revised as part of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Disambiguation". Courtland 13:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Edit links generated

Hello, there was a message left at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Wiki Syntax saying this project needs some help. If I understand correctly you have a list of articles that need to be edited. I can create a report for you that would look like this. All I need is the list to do or I can give you the perl script that generates a report just like that. Triddle 00:42, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Please see the second posting under "Tools" above. --Smack (talk) 14:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll check it out and see if there is anything I can do. By the way, this is the exact sort of thing I created the Misplaced Pages:Computer help desk (shortcut: WP:CHD) for. Its new and I'm still trying to get the word out. Triddle 17:09, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

"For" template

Maybe {{For}} is something that should (also) be listed in a new subsection of the template listing entitled "for use when a disambiguation page doesn't seem necessary" (or something less awkward). I've gotten into the habit of using this template to bypass a disambiguation page that has only two items on it, which I follow by converting the disambiguation page to a redirect when it is possible to choose one target in favor of the other (open to much interpretation). An example of where I've done this are with the former disambiguation page A Byatt. Courtland 16:38, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Good catch. I didn't know that there was a template for that. --Smack (talk) 02:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Massive revision of AC

I've just finished a massive revision of AC and anticipate that other two-letter abbreviations might need similarly extensive revisions. I've invited the (potentially many) people affected by the revisions to contribute their concerns about the changes on the talk-page for AC and think that their input might inform work going forward on other two-letter abbreviation and three-letter abbreviation pages. Please feel free to go and fix up the page further; perfection it is not by any means Courtland 22:28, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

AC: 8 headers for 26 entries seems a lot to me. Besides, I wouldn't separate Isaac Asimov and AC/DC in a lead section. -- User:Docu

OK, those can be fixed. About the Asimov item, would you have anything as "definitive" for "AC", meaning anything for which "AC" is the name rather than just an abbreviation? Courtland 03:55, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Another proposed scope/activity item (template choice)

(item number here). Orphan {{Disambiguation}}, replacing instances of this template's use with {{disambig}}, culminating in placement of the newly orphaned template on WP:TFD.

I thought of this because I've occasionally gone the other direction, placing the longer titled template rather than the shorter. We should keep {{disambig}} as the primary as it is consistent with {{TLAdisambig}} and presents an unambiguous shorthand (no comedy intended) to the editor employing it. I took a quick census and found that there are between 50 and 100 uses of {{Disambiguation}}. Thoughts on including this as a Scope or Activities item? Courtland 02:41, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

It'd be nice if we could mark pages that need to be brought into compliance with the MoS - perhaps by making every page with {{disambig}} have a (hidden?) link to pages needing to be brought into line with the disambiguation MoS... maybe by changing {{disambig}} and then manually changing it to a version that doesn't link to pages needing to be brought into line with the disambiguation MoS as each page in brought into line. Josh Parris ✉ 08:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible to have one template redirect to another? --Smack (talk) 02:09, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

• It is done all the time (see {{OtherUses}} as a recently created example). Courtland 02:16, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

"Dablink" template

• {{dablink|This article is about the blarg. For the blarp, see ].}}
  
• :''This article is about the blarg. For the blarp, see ].''

Both provide the same effect, but which is preferrable? As comments on its talkpage suggest, the dablink template may be unneccesary markup. On the other hand, since there is a template for nearly every other kind of dab notice, it would add consistency to use this. Shall we establish some consensus as to which should be used for this project? -- jiy 18:12, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

• Does {{Otherusesabout}} do the same thing once again? Courtland 18:16, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
  • The problem with {{Otherusesabout}} is that the 'Article (disambiguation)' link is hardcoded into the template, but not all articles that need to be disambiguated have a disambiguation page. For instance, take Chess Records:

This article is about the record label. For records in the game of Chess, see World records in Chess.

Maybe a new template similar to Otherusesabout is needed, e.g. :<span class="dablink">''This article is about {{{1}}}. For {{{2}}}.''</span><br/>? -- jiy 18:40, July 27, 2005 (UTC)