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Revision as of 07:45, 28 July 2005

Comment to Bishonen re: summary - if you disagree with the way that I've characterized the attempts at resolution, by all means demonstrate something otherwise happened. Look at the course of the conversation and tell me who spoke politely and who spoke with profanity, personal insults, and allegations of "censorship" and other unseemly acts. It's not hard to tell. And please forgive me, but I must also express skepticism with your characterization of the addition of unrelated David Duke quotes to an article as "perfectly reasonable" and "good NPOV'ing." Rangerdude 02:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, here it is, it was directly underneath my summary last time I saw it. That's a good move, it's better here. But you think I commented without looking at the course of the conversation? That's pretty... well, let's just say, of course I didn't. Yes, I disagree, and I do most heartily forgive you for disagreeing with my disagreement, I would expect you to. Please forgive me, in turn, if I ask you to make sure you don't sound like you want to bully people who comment. You filed a request for comment from the community, remember. I'm afraid I don't have time or inclination to jump through the hoops you suggest. (Profanity? Is that "ass"?) Bishonen | talk 03:18, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

You have a very peculiar attitude, Bishonen. I moved the comments here when I was reformatting the section errors because it is where they belong. Reading more into it than that, and using it as the basis for smart-alecky personal attacks is not very...shall we say...administrator-like. I responded to your comment, as I am free to do, because I found at the time (and still find) the logic you employed in reaching it to be dubious at best. Beyond that the most we can do is agree to disagree. Rangerdude 04:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

What..? Reading more into..? You have a very suspicious attitude, Rangerdude. You think it's sarcasm when I say "That's a good move, it's better here"? Why on earth..? Anyway, I can assure you it's not. Moving your comment to this page was a good idea, I say so in all good faith, how would you like me to put it? Sheesh. I didn't expect to get flamed for commenting on an RfC according to the best of my understanding. Of course I realized you wouldn't like my opinion, but RfC means Request for Comment, not Request for Compliments. Once you open one of those, you'll have to put up with people expressing their views frankly, and, I suggest again, resist the temptation to bully them for it. For the record, I'm not aware of having made any "smart-alecky personal attacks". (The question about "ass" was a smart-alecky remark, but that's not the same thing.) Anyway, I'm taking this page off my watchlist now, I've full confidence in people taking any further accusations from you for what they're worth. Bishonen | talk 14:00, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

On Personal Insults

What I find to be a personal insult on Wiki:

1. False courtesy.
2. Passive/aggressive behavior.
3. Feigned concern for standards.
4. Arbitrary reverts while claiming to be editing in good faith.
5. Staged confrontations to make a complaint record.
6. Omphaloskeptic citation of Wiki policies.
7. Smug dismissal.
8. Patronizing lectures.
9. Paternalism posing as formality.
10. Priapic obstinance.
11. Page hijackings posing as NPOV.
12. Longwinded talk page essays full of sound and fury - yet signifying nothing.

Perhaps I am too glib, and offend by being sarcastic. Apologies. But I say what I think. And prefer it when others do likewise.

I will ponder this during a 48 hour break from editing the page in question. --Cberlet 02:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The disguised vitriol above aside, anybody interested in what Misplaced Pages's policy on personal attacks really says may view it at Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. The author of the above is also invited to spend some time on that page during his pending contemplative period. Perhaps then he will come to understand why other editors are finding his behavior objectionable. Rangerdude 04:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Chip, the items you have listed are not even considered offensive here! Show utter disrespect for a fellow editor -- get a pat on the back. Call them an arsehole -- feel the weight of the policy. This attitude is demonstrated on this very page. Some like a passive-aggressive paradise, where they can hide behind "policies" as a means to attack their enemies. Like you, I prefer straight talking and believe it leads far more quickly to resolution and ultimately to good work. Still, you need to take care on your own account not to allow your personal views to flavour your contributions too richly. Work for the opposition occasionally and you become a smaller target for, well, anyone who might want to shoot at you. -- Grace Note

Responses to Question by Robert McClenon

I am not entirely sure what all of the heat is about. If I were asked to judge at this time, I think that I would say that the complainant is being unreasonable, but that I would ask to wait a few days to think about it.

I have read through the diffs. I don't see exactly what the case is. I would ask Rangerdude to provide a brief summary of what he thinks that the wrongs committed by the other two users are. Robert McClenon 03:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Robert, Here's what I think the heat is about...I don't see how the editorial actions re David Duke can be seen as good editorial policy. Such had the blatant effect of comparing those who criticize the SPLC to that KKK-nutcase. The other things I object to is: (1) The proliferation of critiques by the SPLC. Any attempt to shorten them was labelled as "censorship", even when responding material was also shortened correspondingly; (2) To the objection that the article was becoming more an article about the SPLC's opinions on the LvMI, than an article on the SPLC, it was objected that such objections were "censorhip". I don't see this. Criticisms can be voiced briefly without going into unwieldly and lengthy quotes, especially from second-rate non-scholarly criticism like the stuff found on the SPLC; (3) Furthermore, responding to the objection that the article was disproportionately weighted on SPLC criticisms, some editors responded that "then you should add more material on LvMI positions". However, neither I nor anyone else can possibly construct quality-summries of LvMI positions as fast as can lengthy quotes from emotionally charged accusations at the SPLC be brought up. Thus, the article will apparently forever be especially disproportionately weighted on the SPLC's criticisms. (4) Finally, at one point, someone disguised a description of the "position" of the LvMI by using out-of-context quotes of Rothbard from an SPLC article (quotes which the SPLC did not reference). This is disingenuous when discussing the positions of the LvMI. --Dh003i 04:05, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Robert - Thank you for your time in reviewing this matter. As you requested a brief summary of the issues here, I'm happy to oblige. The jist of my complaint can be summarized in two parts:

First, I am contending that the current disputes on the LVMI article are primarily the result of intentionally disruptive editing behavior by a small number of individuals with strong personal political beliefs against the LVMI itself that have led them to introduce an inordinately large amount of material favorable to their position while simultaneously screening and restricting material that disagrees with it. In short, there is an active effort to bias this article's text against LVMI, which is a violation of WP:NPOV. Evidence of this effort may be found in many of the edits by Willmcw including his additions of extraneous wholly unrelated material by notorious racists such as David Duke to discredit more legitimate and mainstream sources that differ with his POV. Other evidence of it may be found in his removal of balancing language that is critical of his political viewpoint, including at least once where he passed off this edit as something inoccuous and minor. He has also employed an extremely partisan political source that is favorable to his viewpoint for the purpose of crafting a "factual" section on LVMI's beliefs - something that is forbidden in Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. He has also actively sought to remove counterbalancing sources that are critical of his position by erroniously labelling them "blogs" and then stating they cannot be used as sources because of that. The sum of this behavior is fundamentally anti-NPOV, which is problematic for Misplaced Pages because NPOV is one of our driving mandates.

Second, I am contending that both Willmcw and Cberlet have been personally abusive towards other editors involved in this article. In doing so they have soured several attempts to reach a constructive solution on the NPOV disputes at the article. They have also violated many Misplaced Pages policies against personal attacks. Some examples: Willmcw made personal attacks on the occupation and place of employment of another contributer, User:Nskinsella, on the talk page and in his edit description. Cberlet has made several personal attacks on myself and other editors as well including profanity , bad faith allegations of "censorship" in response to a simple request that he make NPOV and other revisions to his proposed edit to bring them in accordance with WP policies , and attacks and other derogatory remarks aimed at the political affiliations of other editors. All of these things are explicitly prohibited by Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks and related policies.

I feel that this RfC is necessary because both the POV pushing and the personal abuse and other Misplaced Pages policy violations by these two editors has continued unabated despite several attempts to curtail the personal abuses and initiate discussions aimed at reconciling the NPOV dispute tag that is currently on the article. In fact, earlier today when I was attempting to get Cberlet to participate in a civilized talk page discussion about the NPOV problems I indicated that a RfC of this very nature might be in order as the next step if he was unwilling to work, and he essentially told me in not so polite terms to go ahead and start one! If there is a mediator out there who would like to volunteer his or her services to this case I believe that would be a reasonable next step. Thank you again for your input. Rangerdude 04:21, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

• Willmcw also has done the following to me. First, someone else posted my entry months back. I had no knowledge of or involvement in it. Willmcw initiated a delete. In the delete he called my entry non-notable (which I did not contest), and also that it was vanity. He has stated many times that I caused it to be put up, even though I have denied this. So he is not assuming good faith and is calling me a liar, in effect. Second, during that debate, he kept calling my entry a copyright violation, even though it was taken from mateiral on my own site that I gave consent to. I believe Willmcw was basically trying to harass me and make a tempest in a teapot here, as a means of inducing me to adopt the GNU type license on my own website. This is an abuse, in my view. He also bases a lot of his comments about copyright, in that matter, and on the Intellectual Property entry, based on a fallacious understanding of copyright. He kept trying to insist that mention of my own anti-IP article on the IP entry, have a comment after it stating that the article "was copyrighted" by the publisher; this was clearly an attempt to make some snide, non-neutral critique of or comment on the article, which was completely out of place, uncalled for, non-sensical, and unjustified. Then, after he or someone else added on the Mises entry the SPLC critique and charges of racism etc., and I put up some comments by Horowitz that showed that some people bleieve SPLC exaggerates sometimes--he added to it the David Duke comment, in yet another transparent effort to prop up the SPLC critique. Yet more bias and non-neutrality. All the while Willmcw feigns innocence and pretends to be objective about all this. I for one find it disheartening that such an influential and active editor keeps doing this kind of thing. This is just my personal view, from what I have seen. I do not claim to be an angel but am trying to abide by Wiki policies. Stephan Kinsella 18:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Sam Spade?

User:Sam Spade has never been involved in the dispute at Ludwig von Mises Institute and his listing himself in the dispute section is not appropriate. Sam Spade also fails to mention that we both agreed to mediation by a real Wiki mediator, not one of his allies, and that mediation is ongoing. His entry should be moved to the proper section.--Cberlet 15:48, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree, Sam was never a participant in this dispute. His presenting evidence here is inappropriate, particularly in the light of his ongoing mediation with one of the accused Cberlet, and the "evidence" he presented is highly dependent on his particular interpretation of outside events, irrelevant to the matter at hand. FeloniousMonk 16:49, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I've moved the endorsement by Sam Spade to the appropriate section. It appears to me to have been a simple mistake. Please assume good faith. Rangerdude 19:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Was user:Wyss involved? I don't remember any contributions from him either. -Willmcw 00:47, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. Wyss 01:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

There is a reason why Cberlet and FM are not allowed to edit the disputants section, and I feel accomadating them in this way was unfortunate. I think perhaps Rangerdude, DickClarkMises, and or Stephan Kinsella might do well to review the links in question and decide for themselves which add to the basis of their complaint, and make a decision whither my inclusion as a disputant would aid them or distract from their case. The evidence can be included without my signature as a formal litigant, btw. That said, its not a big deal, and I will respect the judgement of Rangerdude and the other parties currently listed as disputing this user's conduct on this project page. In summary, please do whats best for you, and the project, rather than what might appease either myself, the accused, or their fellow partisans. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 22:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Sam - Thank you for the clarification. Holding that the material you introduce about the behavior of Cberlet is relevant to a discussion of objectionable editing behavior and WP policy violations by him in general, I believe it is valid to make mention of it. At the minimum, and holding the practices to be similar, it would show that Cberlet's violations on the LVMI article were not isolated or uncharacteristic incidents for him, and that is sufficiently germane to retain at least some mention of it for the purpose of allowing other editors to review them. Thanks again for your consideration of this RfC and comments. Rangerdude 00:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Sam's "evidence" is immaterial to the causes of action listed in this RFC. Sam presenting irrelevant evidence here is a transparent attempt to insert himself into the fray and get in a few licks against Cberlet, nothing else. FeloniousMonk 23:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

This is a RfC. I dispute this user's conduct. I provided evidence of such. End of story. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 04:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The merit of your dispute is in question. The evidence you offer has scant relevance to this RFC. And its actual value of your evidence is yet to seen. Time will tell. FeloniousMonk 06:49, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Content distractions from personal friendships, recusal from mediations etc.

In the course of this RfC it has occurred to me that several of the editors stating opposition to the RfC's case and/or support for the rebuttal have strong personal relationships with one or both of the editors accused of violating Misplaced Pages policy. Among these, some have openly stated these relationships as the basis of their opposition to the RfC. While participation of all editors is welcome on an RfC, that personal relationships have been asserted as the basis for opposing it in place of a balanced objective consideration of the facts is very disconcerting. The persisting absence of any substantive case containing accurate documentation, specifics, and cited responses among the rebuttals to date is similarly indicative of this problem. As the two accused editors in this dispute are both prolific contributers to wikipedia and as one has administrator privileges, it is not unsurprising nor inherently problematic that both have personal friendships and allegiances with other editors here. That said, personal allegiances and friendships have little place in a dispute resolution proceeding as they distract away from the content of the proceeding and do little to resolve the existing disagreements between editors.

Given that a situation in which personal allegiances have exhibited themselves during the dispute resolution has emerged and given the possibility that this particular dispute may require future actions under the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution process, among them mediation and, if necessary, arbitration or some further intervention, I have become increasingly concerned that the result will be to prolong the dispute itself and inhibit the reaching of a solution that is agreeable to all sides. Should this indeed become the situation and should this dispute necessitate further procedures such as mediation and/or arbitration, I must request that any contributer with strong personal and/or political allegiances to either User:Willmcw, User:Cberlet or both recuse him or herself from any administrative, mediator, arbitrator, or other related third party role in subsequent steps of this dispute resolution. According to Misplaced Pages:Mediation such a recusal is proper in many such cases as mediators should be "independent, neutral and in no connection with any of the involved parties." Similarly per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy Arbitrators who have a conflict of interest in the case "shall recuse themselves immediately from participation in the case." Thank you. Rangerdude 04:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Criticizing the very community you appeal to for assistance is not likely to help your case. FeloniousMonk 06:51, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

So if your RFC doesn't get the reaction you're looking for, I guess the proper response is to blame the cabal. Gotcha. Rhobite 07:19, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

"Cabal?" I don't believe I ever suggested there was one nor do I see evidence of any. I do, however, see a handful of editors stating the fact that Cberlet and/or Willmcw are their personal friends as their sole reasons for opposing this RfC. As such comments are largely distracting to the dispute resolution process and as they indicate a personal conflict of interest in future dispute resolution procedures on this article if necessary, making due note of it and requesting the said persons to voluntarily recuse themselves upon that conflict in the event of either mediation or arbitration is entirely appropriate. As to the remainder of the RfC, it has been generally beneficial insofar as it has generated new participation at the article with an aim toward resolving the editing conflicts there, and I thank any and all editors who have done so in good faith. Of course there still are a small number of persons who, rather than contribute toward resolving the article's disputes prefer instead to linger here posting generally meaningless and unconstructive comments such as those found here and here, but that's a matter not worthy of substantive attention. Makes ya thankful that Misplaced Pages is not a democracy Rangerdude 07:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC)