Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:14, 29 July 2005

Archives of older discussions may be found here:

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• Talk:Islam/Archive 7
• Talk:Islam/External links

faithfreedom.org

I added a link to the directories critical of Islam given under external links directories. The link was to www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm . It was deleted within a day. That is a shame. I did not edit any content of the page, nor added or subtracted any statement on Islam. The links provided by faithfreedom are more extensive than anything given under the directories listed under the external links. Faithfreedom is clearly anti-Islam and its links are to various critics of Islam. I find it absolutely unacceptable that the editors will censor to this level. Why cannot wikipedia tolerate links to faithfreedom's link page that is clearly more comprehensive than the other directories linked under external link? Perhaps the editors of the Islam page should not be biased muslims who have an agenda to beat the drum of their particular sect. Reading this disscussion page clearly shows that the malady of sectarianism within Islam has reached Misplaced Pages as well.

The links provided by faithfreedom are more extensive than anything given under the directories listed under the external links.—You are mistaken. The dmoz directories are much more extensive, better-categorized, more multilingual, and they link to faithfreedom.org already. There's no need for this link, nor for speculation about the religious motives of other editors, which is in fact erroneous. Long ago, this article had a massively bloated list of external links, and the list you see there would have been much longer if not for periodic trimming. Zora (a Buddhist) removed most of the links, and I (a Catholic) added the ODP links, and all agreed that this was the sensible thing to do. If we are going to link to faithfreedom's external links page, why not http://bismikaallahuma.org/Archive/links.htm ? Or http://islamfortoday.com/special.htm ? And so on, and so forth. This way lies madness. —Charles P. (Mirv) 3 July 2005 20:27 (UTC)

I just checked the link to the directory at dmoz and they list a total of 27 enteries that are critical of Islam. The rest are essentially links to islamic sites. Here is the numbers in the list at dmoz: dmoz gives under opposing views of islam: Ahamadiyya(32), Deendar Anjuman(2),Islamism(22), Nation of Islam(19),Quranites (1),Shia (3),Submitters (3),Sufism (13),Sunni(3) which are all sects of Islam and quite pro-Islam. I have gone to the various sites and found no contra views on Islam at those links. The contra Views on Islam are listed by dmoz as: Christian Views(20),Ex-Muslim(3),Hindu Views(3),Jewish Views(1).

Faithfreedom links to 74 sites on the page. There is perhaps an overlap of about four or five enteries between dmoz and faithfreedom. I am not interested in your or zora's or anyone's religion. The idea, I thought was to provide the readers the best information available. The issue is that the bickering on this page clearly tells us that there are plenty of sectarian issues within Islam and the contra-views of Islam are clearly a need to understand the passion being demonstrated. I provided a link that clearly has more contra views to Islam than the link given at dmoz, and that was deleted. I urge the editors to take another look dispassionately and restore that link. And look at the external links under Hinduism for a comparison. A few more links under Islam will not be madness, but far from it.

This is an encyclopedia ...remember !! Faith freedom is not a site , its hatred spread by a phobic psycho who is illeterate , unauthentic & unverifiable . ITs not coming here . What U think or say is not important . we are giving links to authentic & verifiable people , not pink monkeys & flying mules . And yes , see the hinduism page , tell me if you find any link to a "critical site" there . Try inserting links to some dungpools like FFI there . Learn how to use an encyclopedia , learn how to read & what to read . If U dont like encyclopedias , go back to your dung pool U call FFI . Sign your name if you think your existance is of any importance on WP . Farhansher 4 July 2005 07:17 (UTC)<s?

Farhansher, that sort of thing doesn't help. All we have to say is that faithfreedom doesn't get any special treatment. Rather than link directly to sites about Islam in general (except for academic sites and sites re non-controversial specific topics), we link to directories, which have the space and the mission to be completely inclusive. Anyone who goes to the directories will find ALL the sites. Zora 4 July 2005 07:25 (UTC)

Farhansher, it is your diatribes that are unencyclopedic. You will acheive nothing by ranting at people. As for "faithfreedom", by the title of that page,

Fight Islamic militancy, militarily and its ideology, ideologically. These are the two fronts of the war against barbarism.

it appears to be a site about Islamism? At first glance, it contains very cheap and sarcastic Islam-bashing, and it has certainly no theological relevance. You may attempt to argue for inclusion of the on Islamism, but probably the more appropriate place would be Islamophobia. Just like we don't link to pure proselytizing sites, we don't link to fearmonging sites. dab (ᛏ) 4 July 2005 08:23 (UTC)

The real problem with this page is that it has essentially been hijacked by a gang of Islamist who do not care for history of facts and who will stop at nothing to block any presentation of Islam that does not fit their POV. The links on FaithFreedom belong on this page. I have had my share of battling with the Islamists on this page, I will not name names , but just look at my edit trail. There are even admin islamists who are part of the blockade. Of course they will tell will you tell you that they are impartial and only interested in the encyclopedic integrity but it is just a tactic they use. Do a search for aL-taqya on the internet to learn more about their tactics.--Urchid 4 July 2005 16:36 (UTC)

There is an article on taqiyya; you should read it before making any more ill-informed personal attacks. —Charles P. (Mirv) 4 July 2005 17:25 (UTC)

The issue is not whether you agree with Faithfreedom or not. The point is that the link page at FFI has more relevent and varied links than at dmoz. Your argument that dmoz is more comprehensive and that there are too many links have been shown to be spurious. The external links under hinduism are atleast 4 to 5 times more than what they are under Islam, and the number of links at FFI clearly are more and varied than at dmoz. The bias of the editors is obvious and evident, and it is damaging to Misplaced Pages. You will not even tolerate a link to a page under External Links because you disagree with the sites point of view? That is not the function of an editor!! That is censorship plain and simple. There are many many people who agree with the pov expressed at those links as is evident by the number of sites and their readership, and you do not want to provide any link to them? Is that what an encyclopedia is supposed to be? Who is asking for any special treatment for FFI? Do the editors appreciate what is meant by contra-views on Islam? Do the editors appreciate what is meant by freedom of speech? If this attitude of censorship of Misplaced Pages gets general media attention, do the editors understand what the consequences will be for the credibility of this supposed encyclopedia? Too many people have put in too many hours to create this resource to be allowed to be "hijacked" by a few editors who obviously are having a hard time understanding the proper role of an editor.-Nickbee

The comments by FarhanSher are an example of an unbiased editor at Wickipedia? Is that representative of the quality of editorial comments here? Just curious? -Nickbee

The issue is not whether you agree with Faithfreedom or not.—I agree. As Zora explains above, it was long ago decided not to link to any sectarian sites from this page, but rather to use the non-sectarian directories. There are thousands of Islamic websites and thousands of anti-Islamic websites. Rather than make the selection of which are linked here subject to the whims and biases of editors, which would lead to endless fighting (witness this section of the talk page) over which links to include and exclude, we pass the job off to dmoz and other directories. These generally include the sites that people might want to link here, so anyone who's interested can still find them. If you want to include FFI because there are many people who agree with it, why not islamonline.com? or bismikaallahuma.org? or answering-christianity.com? or. . .but you get the idea. Millions of people agree with the views of those sites, but we don't link them either. —Charles P. (Mirv) 4 July 2005 17:25 (UTC)

I suppose I'm an islamist admin, for helping keep the fundamentalist hate sites from the article? Farhansher doesn't realize he's really working for his opponents. I estimate he is 15 years old. That doesn't automatically make you a quality editor, Urchid. For that you would have to show some productivity rather than throwing around polemics on talk pages. We won't accept any cheesy islamist proselytization links either, ok? Just because it's anti-Islamic doesn't make faithfreedom a quality site, people. "These women think they are 96% vagina" — how low can you stoop? dab (ᛏ) 4 July 2005 17:56 (UTC)

1) http://www.faithfreedom.org provides a legitimate counter POV to the Islam page and deserves to be presented. Have you seen how difficult it is to try to present any other POV on this page? Dab, are so insecure with your faith in Islam that you cannot allow to have a critical link added to the page?

2)There seems to be is a fundamental flaw with Misplaced Pages, in that by its design it is vulnerable to hijacking, for example, since you have a limit on 3 revert per day, all it takes is a few editors colluding with each other to gang up on single editors and out revert them. Then you have the admin layer of editors, which I have not yet seen being policed by anyone, though I could be wrong on that, so you have admins going around and taking ideologically motivated measures, locking pages that they are partisan in, deleting pages that does not suit their own POV and generally bullying their ideological opponents. It kind of makes it difficult to contribute to articles under those conditions. --Urchid 4 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)

Charles P. The policy is obviously not uniformly applied. I showed you the Hinduism page where the external links are directly to sites that are clearly proselytizing in nature. I am not linking to Faithfreedom directly but to a page that contains 74 links to contra-views on Islam. These links are not available to Misplaced Pages readers and you as an editor are not willing to consider whether they should be? You mention the other sites: Are there link directories at those sites? Are those sites already listed at dmoz? If not then they should be included. Who is asking for withholding of information? Why deny the Misplaced Pages readers access to information because you do not like the point of view being expressed there? Why the need for such petty censorship? Again I am not changing one line of information on the topic, merely linking to a page that contains links to sites that express contra-views to the topic and those links are not available at any other listing provided by wikipedia under the topic? If you know of sites that have directories that present links to pro-views on the topic and those links are not currently available, I would imagine that as an editor you should, perhaps must, include those links as well. Should a good encyclopedia not offer access to information that is available out there? Why the reluctance to include merely a link to a page that contains links to sites that are obviously well visited and that contain "contra-views" on the topic of the page? -Nickbee

Dab's comments make it perfectly clear that he is very familiar with Faithfreedom. So he visits it and knows about it, but he also feels entitled to deny the information about it to the readers of Misplaced Pages!! Is that not THE Definition of censorship? Who is asking posting the faithfreedom pov under Islam? But why deny an external link to a page that is obviously potent enough to rile a distinguished editor of wikipedia, and that obviously has significant readership? -Nickbee

it is teh definition of informed editing. I have visited lots of kooky website, and didn't feel compelled to add them all to WP. Of course, I don't own WP. If I am voted down, the link will be added. At the moment, however, it rather looks like you flew in the face of established consensus, mister anonymous. Also, I had never seen ff before you linked to it. "potent"? You mean "patent fundamentalism". Not on Misplaced Pages, thank you. dab (ᛏ) 4 July 2005 18:53 (UTC)

re "uniform application": understand that it is a consensus arrived at on this article, because we have quite a history of pov-pushers trying to add their precious websites. So people figured out that the way to go is to be restrictive about biased links. this doesn't necessarily hold for other articles, although as a rule, the farther out your site, the smaller the chance of inclusion. dab (ᛏ) 4 July 2005 18:56 (UTC)

Well said. Some people seem to forget that this is supposed to be an enyclopedia. Do you really expect to find Encyclopedia Britannica, say, linking to "faithfreedom.org"? This sort of silly games merely reduces Misplaced Pages's credibility. as for the Hinduism article, pruning its link section sounds like a great idea. - Mustafaa 4 July 2005 18:58 (UTC)

oh, and urchid, I am not a bloody Muslim (nor an unbloody one), got it? I'm just a random "Westerner" who cares about encyclopedicity and factuality. Not necessarily about Islam, although a fortiori about Islam as if falls into the larger realm of human knowledge and spirituality. dab (ᛏ) 4 July 2005 19:00 (UTC)

(via edit conflict)

The policy is obviously not uniformly applied.—It is not a policy, but a consensus among the regular editors of this page, which has lasted since last October.

I showed you the Hinduism page where the external links are directly to sites that are clearly proselytizing in nature.—then perhaps Hinduism needs serious link trimming, but I am not the one to do it, as I know little about the topic, do not edit the page regularly, and could not judge what should stay and what should go.

I am not linking to Faithfreedom directly but to a page that contains 74 links to contra-views on Islam.—you're not linking to their front page, but you are linking directly to a page with www.faithfreedom.org in the URL, which is closely linked into the rest of the pages on the site. Word games. Meanwhile the directories link to many sites with contra-views (including faithfreedom), which themselves link to similar sites, and so on.

These links are not available to Misplaced Pages readers and you as an editor are not willing to consider whether they should be?—They may not be available directly but they are available through dmoz; all that's required is a bit more clicking. I have considered the value of the link and given my considered opinion that it does not belong here.

You mention the other sites: Are there link directories at those sites? Are those sites already listed at dmoz? If not then they should be included.—Yes, there are link directories on the sites I named, and yes, the sites (if not the link pages) are in dmoz. I still do not believe that they, or any others with a pro- or anti-Islamic agenda, should be included, for reasons which I have already explained.

Who is asking for withholding of information? Why deny the Misplaced Pages readers access to information because you do not like the point of view being expressed there? Why the need for such petty censorship?—Spare us the empty rhetoric. I've argued against the inclusion of links to any sites with a religious and/or political agenda, for the sake of sanity and usefulness. To recapitulate:

• There are thousands of sites about Islam which have an agenda, whether proselytizing, apologetic, polemical, or political.
• This page cannot link to all of them; Misplaced Pages is not a link repository.
• Therefore, the choice of which to include will be a matter of editorial selectivity—and thus a point of contention and an endless battleground.
• dmoz is a reasonably neutral selector of links; it has no overt agenda apart from creating a useful directory of sites about a topic. In this it is reasonably successful.
• By leaving the selection of links to agenda-driven sites up to a reasonably neutral third party, we avoid disputes over which should and should not be included here. The reader is still offered a selection of agenda-driven sites which is much wider than anything this article could reasonably include.
• Therefore, rather than link to any of the agenda-driven sites, this article should link to the dmoz listings, or another directory of similar scope and neutrality.

Try to address the points of this argument, if you please, instead of squawking about censorship and withholding of information. —Charles P. (Mirv) 4 July 2005 19:49 (UTC)

It is truly mindboggling. The professionalism of the editors as expressed by their language: "instead of squawking about censorship and withholding of information.". "Spare us the empty rhetoric."!! And all of this because of trying to get the editors to reconsider their decision on providing a link. No one is asking you to link to all the sites. You answered your question yourself about the other sites: "Yes, there are link directories on the sites I named, and yes, the sites (if not the link pages) are in dmoz.". There is no need for replication, is there? Now where in dmoz are the links given at faithfreedom? Those links are not available. Why is that so hard for you to understand? There are not infinite links to Islam out there. The contra views are not many, and that is why the collection of contra views of Islam at the link page at FFI is valuable. Your comment: "you're not linking to their front page, but you are linking directly to a page with www.faithfreedom.org in the URL, which is closely linked into the rest of the pages on the site. Word games." is indicative of your mentality. The entire Internet is only a few clicks away. Why have Misplaced Pages at all? Do you understand fully the logic of your statement? It really appears that the idea of providing information to Misplaced Pages readers so that they can get ALL sides of the information on a topic is not something the present set of editors grasp. Misplaced Pages is not British Encyclopedia, is it? It is an online Enclycopedia where people can edit and enter information. It is supposed to be better than the british encyclopedia. And you cannot grasp a simple and straightforward concept that providing a link to a page that has useful information is required for Misplaced Pages to be successful. But the agenda of the current spate of editors will not allow that!! Where does it say that Misplaced Pages "policy" is that links can only be provided by dmoz? Atleast they have the decency to link to FFI which you and your cohorts are unable to fathom that it is okay if NEW AND RELEVANT information is to be had there. I assure you that this will get more and more publicity and this issue will not go away. You guys are behaving as if you own Misplaced Pages and want to run it as a private domain. No one is allowed even to ask for a reconsideration! Amazing! -Nickbee.

Misplaced Pages's success is not the issue. It's safe to say that Faithfreedom offers little relevance in religious debate. The main editors seem to not want that. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH It might be worthwhile to point you in the direction of a typical encyclopedia and reading the article on Islam. How does it read? What kind of information does it give you? I hope that maybe you doing that will solve some of this problem. gren 5 July 2005 04:08 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages's success is not the issue." If that is not the issue then why such insistence in not allowing a good contra-view to the topic link in external links? What motivates the editors to such steely resolve? -Nickbee

very simple indeed: we do not consider it good. Personally, I consider it godawful. If ff.org is your site, you are so far away from grasping the actual issues that it is almost pitiful. I've looked at it some more, and it is so full of absurd hate that it goes only to show that both Islam and Christianity have their shares of fanatical hate-mongers. Try to get listed on any of the directories we link to, so people can reach your site from here in two clicks. dab (ᛏ) 5 July 2005 13:42 (UTC)

If I may add -- the reason WP is gaining in popularity is that it is perceived as (generally) trustworthy. Why? Because there are guidelines, traditions, and structural safeguards here that stand in contrast to the bias that is so rampant elsewhere, and all too evident on partisan sites like ff. What Nickbee is asking is akin to asking, "How come the editors at (to use a conservative example) The Wall Street Journal don't run front-page op-ed pieces by Matt Drudge?" Because front-page op-ed pieces by Matt Drudge are the opposite of what the Wall Street Journal is. If it started running op-ed pieces by Matt Drudge, it wouldn't be the Wall Street Journal anymore. Clear? BrandonYusufToropov 5 July 2005 14:49 (UTC)

except the WSJ is not the best of examples here; most WSJ articles would be torn to pieces on Misplaced Pages in a matter of minutes for being ridiculously biased and rife with strawmen. dab (ᛏ) 5 July 2005 15:06 (UTC)

You are correct, sir. :) BrandonYusufToropov 5 July 2005 15:12 (UTC)

Ah, the royal we comes out! "We do not consider it good"? Who is this we? Certainly not the dissenting editors? Or are you and your "cohorts" the Misplaced Pages? If you represent Misplaced Pages then I am sure it deserves little respect and possiblly cannot be gaining in popularity. So far it has demonstrated high handedness and arbitrary censorship. -Nickbee

you are quite right, I see it now, Misplaced Pages is doomed to unpopularity :o(unless we, the hivemind, allow everybody to link their sites dab (ᛏ)

No you cannot see much because you will not allow free expression. Second bombing in Europe and of course it has nothing to do with Islam according to the esteemed editors of Misplaced Pages who cannot bear to give open links to sites that question the ideology of Islam that is driving people every day to commit suicide and kill innocents. Muslims are doing a good job of showing Islam to the world all on their own. Keep protecting your tiny kindoms on the web. -Nickbee

and of course your site is the only one on the internet providing the insight that London was bombed by Islamist madmen, and not, for example the Misplaced Pages article, 7/7. Look, if you want to know about the religion, read Islam. If you want to see a discussion of crimes committed in the name of Islam, read Islamist terrorism, ok? These are different topics, that may be linked, but should not be confused. For the same reason, we don't have the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse article under the USA title, the Auto da Fe article under Christianity, the Armenian genocide article under Turkey, or the holocaust article under Germany (yeah, Godwin, I know). dab (ᛏ) 07:02, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

And ofcourse only an unbiased editor like yourself would immediately assume that FFI is my site. FFI is not my site. I read that site like I read any other. I never said that FFI is the only site that discusses Islamist madmen. You are the one that is preventing a link to links about Islam by people who are anti Islam. Again the links are to anti Islam sites and not particular events or themes. As I said you cannot see because you do not want to see. That is alright because as I said the muslims are telling the world about themselves. Which Evil Ideology was Tony Blair referring to in his speech? Where can one find about that evil ideology? Why does it keep getting confused with Islam that Blair and Bush keep telling the world that ideology is not Islam? Are there people who disagree with them? Are there reasons to beleive that Bush and Blair are wrong? Where does one find the link between Islam and that evil ideology? And why is it that so many muslims find it so easy to accept that ideology as Islam? Today 32 mostly muslim children were blown up in Iraq by one of those who " wants to sell his soul to Allah for paradise" (their words!). What is it in Islam that should allow so many suicide bombers ? And you are intent upon censoring links that present a different face of Islam. And you claim to see far? Keep enjoying your little kingdom. -Nickbee

An interesting sidelight. The suicide bomber technology was pioneered by the Tamil Tigers, who have fielded more bombers than all the Muslim groups put together. What is it in the Tamil language that allows so many suicide bombers? What do Islam and the Tamil language have in common? NOTHING? Ah! Zora 05:09, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

yes, Mr. Socrates. How about you read some non-hatesites with these exact questions in mind? Maybe you'll learn something, but I doubt it; it is easier to hate than to differentiate, this is exacly in line with the fundamentalist mindset, congratulations. Anyway, we are not censoring information about Islamism and Islamist terrorism: they have their own articles. If you are so much into those subjects, I humbly suggest you go over there, this is simply the wrong article for you. dab (ᛏ) 05:39, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

You cannot suggest anything humbly because you are not humble. No need to be a hypocrite. I am not here asking for your understanding but pointing out to the editors here that they are acting as petty bureaucrats and refusing to even provide a link to information about Islam. Not Islamism not Islamist terrorism but Islam. Fascinating that the proclaimed "buddhist" editor will come to declare that "Tamil tigers have fielded more bombers than all the muslim groups put together"! Fascinating that an esteemed editor could demonstrate such fascinating knowledge? May we know the source, because I know enough to state that is totally wrong.

The source is a BBC article I just read, an interview with a professional security analyst asked about the London bombings: . Zora 11:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Or is this a type of built in bias that may be expected from the editors? You can keep denying that you do not censor, but your actions and your locked up page speaks volumes. Again you are unable to grasp that the issues are joined not by my interest but by the headlines of newspapers all over the world. People do want to know why so many suicide bombers can justify their acts are justified by Islam, why so many mufti's have sanctioned suicide attacks, and how come the western leaders know more about Islam than so many of the muslim scholars themselves? One of the reason obviously is that we have people in the west like the editors of wikipedia who are busy trying to censor and prevent people from finding information about Islam. -Nickbee

that wasn't hypocrisy, that was sarcasm. you have good questions, but the answers are hardly on faithfreedom.org. If anything justifies muslims in treating "the West" as the devil, it is "the West" treating them like the devil. Misplaced Pages is biased towards sanity. If you don't like that, well, there are plenty of insane fora on the internet, do go join those. Anybody is welcome to an informed discussion of the problems Islam has with fundamentalism, and this discussion is taking place on Misplaced Pages. It is just difficult to conduct, because it is shouted down by people with brilliant answers like "Islam is evil". dab (ᛏ) 06:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Is it not surprising that Misplaced Pages does not mind having a page on "Ali Sina" the ex-muslim behind FFI but the bureaucratic editors of wikipedia are unable to bring themselves to link to a good source that he provides? Becasue he is insane? Shouted down? Why? Interesting that it is people who know about Islam and probably are muslims, shias or sunnis who cannot seem to agree upon what should be on the page. And ofcourse a bunch of people who were born into Islam and have decided to leave it and claim that Islam is evil are insane!! But a westerner who is not a muslim knows better and feels entitled to judge and censor even a link to the x-muslims site where they provide links to a 74 sites supporting their views. But ofcourse they are insane!! And you feel entitiled to squash free flow of information to impose that judgement on wikipedia. And by your own admission, you did not know about FFI till it was brought up here, and you linked to it and decided in a few minutes that it is a hate site. People who overcame the fear of Allah and the penalty of death to renounce Islam do not know Islam. They may be wrong, but they do have the right to say that Islam is Evil. They would not have left Islam if they did not think that something was seriously wrong with it, now would they? But you reveal your bias when you state that the proposition "Islam is Evil" is enough to convict someone for insanity!! No wonder you do not grasp the concept of freedom of speech and free flow of information. The questions are being asked by people but wikipedia cannot provide good answers on Islam. Why? -Nickbee

This is not everything2 where we all have our own POV entries about an issue and people vote on it. This is community collaboration where we try to make a reference equal to the scholarly references in books, journals, etc. Unfettered freedom or speech in the way you seem to envision it is chaos and does not make for a good encyclopedia. An ex-Muslim does not necessarily make a better scholar on Islam than a secularist or Muslim. Anyone who has researched the sources knows about Islam and interestingly enough that is completely independent of what religion the person is. A typical Muslims might know more about ritual, but that does not mean they know more about theology. gren 11:26, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I realize that "faithfreedom.org" is linked from Ali Sina, where it belongs, in all its splendour. So why don't you just stop whining about censorship, Misplaced Pages is linking your precious site. dab (ᛏ) 11:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Only a self righteous who is unable to see beyond his tiny domain would consider my request a whine. The irony is not even lost on you is it? Ali Sina can have his page but his views on Islam (not Islamism, not Islamic terrorism) are being censored and suppressed by intellects that are having problems grasping the notion of freedom of speech. Again I have not asked nor am I asking for a change in the content of what the editors consider Islam or its theology, but what I am asking for is a link to a page that voices anti-Islam opinions and the best directory that I know happens to exist at FFI, Ali Sina's website. So the issue is no longer that Misplaced Pages will not link to Ali Sina but the editors of the Islam page will not link to Ali Sina's page. Interesting! And you still call that this is not censorship and imposition of your own biases? -Nickbee.

This is what the esteemed editor Zora says in defending Censorship by refusing a link to anti Islam sites: "An interesting sidelight. The suicide bomber technology was pioneered by the Tamil Tigers, who have fielded more bombers than all the Muslim groups put together." and provides the source for this statement as "The source is a BBC article I just read, an interview with a professional security analyst asked about the London bombings: . Zora 11:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)". Now the BBC article states: "Indeed the Tamil tigers are statistically the most successful and ruthless practitioners of suicide bombing". I assume the editor does not understand what statistically means. It does not mean that Tamils pioneered suicide bombing and it does not mean that Tamils have fielded more bombers than all the Mulims groups put together!! Is this reflective of the integrity of the editors of the Islam page? Or does this tell us about the level of comprehension that results in snap judgements and attempts at suppressing others POV?

-Nickbee

OK, you don't like that reference, try this one, from a Frontline interview: . Dr. Rojan Gunaratna, author of Inside Al-Qaeda, soon out, says that 2/3 of all known suicide bombings were committed by Tamil Tigers. Zora 01:25, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

It is not a question of what I like or I do not like. You are an editor of the Islam page at Misplaced Pages. You made totally unsupported claims and then found some BBC article which did not support your claims. Now you find another article on frontline. I can argue about it, because Ron was even wrong in 2002 and he certainly is wrong today, but that is not the issue here .. is it? I am asking the editors to restore a link to a web page that contained 74 links to anti Islam sites, and that web page happened to be at FFI, Ali Sina's site. The editors first went into a superiority huff and have made the following claims to avoid acknowledging that their actions are arbitrary and an outrageous example of censorship: FFI is an insane site but FFI is linked to by other pages of Misplaced Pages. FFI demeans the credibility of Misplaced Pages, but FFI is linked to by other pages of Misplaced Pages. FFI is a hate site but Ali Sina has been mentioned by Misplaced Pages as a personality of the times and he is an ex-muslim who has very strong views on Islam; Why are you attempting to suppress those views because you do not like them? According to the editors here anyone who says "Islam is evil" is obviously insane ... but the ex-muslims became ex-muslims and that is what most of them tell the world why they left Islam; Why are the editors insisting on implying that most ex-muslims are insane? Why will not the editors of the Islam page at Misplaced Pages allow a link to directory containing a list of anit-Islam sites? Keep your contents of Islam page as you like, but why deny a link under external links to a page at FFI because you do not like to hear or contempalate what Ali Sina has to say. That is censorship practically be definition. Why do the editors insist on defending this arbitrary excersise of abuse of power delegated to them as editors of the islam page? -Nickbee

O_O! Hi, the views are being "censored" because they are in no way scholarly, they are in fact quite disreputable. Hmm, I'm running out of ways to answer editors like you. But, my first bit of advice that seems sound to me is "read a real paper encyclopedia". See how that treats Islam, and what it says about it. Hopefully that will tell you something about the use of FFI links. If that fails then... hmmm, well, let's try this. Try adding a KKK external link over at African Americans. I mean, hell, that's a far more notable critique of black Americaness than Ali Sina's stuff is of Islam. Ali Sina says apostasy is the way to solve the Muslim problem... and, deportation or... death? well, they solve the African American problem. O_O!!! Analogies are fun, but this is tedious. Goodbye gren 06:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

yes, I think all has been said now. Nickbee, freedom of speech means you are free to shout "Islam sucks" out of your window all day. You are here, however, courtesy of wikimedia, using their resources. This means you are bound to Misplaced Pages:policy. Not letting you edit here does not impinge on your freedom of speech any more than if you don't let me use your cellphone. Does the New York Times violate your freedom of speech because they won't print your columns on their front page? I thought so. As far as I'm concerned, this is the end of this discussion, and I support unprotecting the article. dab (ᛏ) 08:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely fascinating! You cannot come up with any real reason why to deny an external link. Courtesy of Wikimedia? I thought it was the courtesy of wikimedia that you are an editor of one of the pages. I am a "custormer". New York times does not pretend to be a Encyclopedia. I am familiar with paper encyclopedias ... are you? You or gren have not addressed the question that why do you insist on censoring information that is anti islam? No one is asking you to add any of Ali Sina's views in your article on Islam which you cannot even keep unlocked courtsey of dedicated Shias and Sunnis. But why do you not allow linking to a web page at his site that provides links to other sites that are anti Islam? Are you guys drowning in so much political correctness that you cannot see your own arrogance? -Nickbee

You are familiar with paper encyclopedias. Do you want wikipedia to have the same credibility as a paper encyclopedia? It's not a matter of political correct ness. Ali Sina has debated men like Edip Yuksel or Yamin Zakaria... their sites should not be linked either. They both represent the Islamic side but are not notable enough for the main article. gren 17:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

a customer! oh my, we'd better write what you like to read, otherwise you might take your money elsewhere! we are not censoring anything, we are editing, removing the junk. Hell, let's unprotect this, and you'll see how many people will revert your hate site, you'll hit 3RR before you know it. dab (ᛏ) 17:54, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I do not care about which muslim gets linked or which muslim says what. Please link to any or all pro-Islam sites you like. It is they who cannot decide what is or is not Islam. I am merely asking why links to anti-Islam sites are being suppressed by the editors here. Why? Do you own Misplaced Pages? Are you an editor of even a minor fraction of pages at Misplaced Pages? So I think the decision of what Misplaced Pages should or should not do is beyond your pay grade. As far as I can tell it is the dedicated muslims themselves who are changing the content of the page and that is what has resulted in locking up the page. Why blame the ex-muslims? My hate site? Why does it bother you that ex-muslims call Islam Evil? Many ex-christians call Christianity evil. Are you emotionally unable to even allow a link to a directory at an ex-muslim site? The pettiness and the intellectual bankruptcy of the stance you "guys" are taking is becoming obvious. Keep it up so even the most avid poltically correct groveller will be able to see where you stand. Muslims may not know what is Islam, and are unable to agree on Islam, but you self proclaimed westerners certainly do, and know for certainity in a five minute evaluation that ex-muslims are evil and hateful. Whatever.

protection

why is the article protected? I suppose that enough people are watching it to prevent inappropriate edits for surviving more than a couple of minutes? fwiiw, I do think some slight npoving is necessary. It is nobody's fault that the Islam-critical editors we get always seem to want extreme changes or insert cheap insults. Still, some informed criticism may be appropriate. E.g. the "Contemporary Islam" sections sounds a tad apologetic, beginning with "Although". We have established that there are indeed liberal Muslim organizations, but it is rather questionable whether they conterbalance Islamism in any way. So it would be better to have a brief section about Islamism, and then a brief section about liberal Islam, without attempting to excuse one with the other. dab (ᛏ) 5 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)

Agreed. "Look, we have liberals, too!" History of Islamism, and its intellectual roots as a response to colonialism, deserves a little more context than it now has, I think. Also, the map in that section is driving me nuts. Makes it looks like there are no Muslims in, for instance, France. No wonder people don't trust CIA intelligence. BrandonYusufToropov 5 July 2005 14:04 (UTC)

You can hardly blame the CIA for that. I suppose the map is supposed to show areas with Muslim majorities. Not much of France would qualify, maybe parts of Marseilles? We could redraw the map, inserting shades, e.g. "Muslim minority, 30-50%", "Muslim majority, 50-80%", and ">80% Muslim". Yes, some context on Islamism would be nice, too. It is very hard to separate religious and societal effects in cases like this. After all, the original expansion of Islam was essentially military. Can Islamic expansion be described as "medieval colonialism"? After all, Christianity in subsaharan Africa and South America arrived by colonialism, essentially similar to the Islamic conquest of North Africa, Central Asia and Anatolia. dab (ᛏ) 5 July 2005 14:18 (UTC)

Is juxtaposing Islamism and liberals good? I'm sure you've seen books about Islam and democracy.... wouldn't that be liberal Islamism? I think it's a bad idea to make assertions about the majority of Muslims in many cases because statistics on these things aren't always so great (or even existent) gren 7 July 2005 03:46 (UTC)

Actual Muslim Population

Even by taking data from General Sources, like CIA Fact Sheet, we can easily establish that fact that total Muslim Population in 2003 is 1.48 billion which is far greater than currently estimated 1.2 or 1.3 billion. Under general source section, we have taken all the datas from popular sources such as CIA Fact Sheet, HOLT,RINEHART & WINSTON etc.

We think that in some countries the total number of Muslims are more in percentage than shown in general sources, like in China and India. For all those few above cases Islamic Sources, news items and thought provoking articles came in great help. Our reasearch shows that the total Muslim Population is 1.70 billion in year 2003.

(http://www.islamicpopulation.com) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.187.63.91 (talk • contribs) sometime (UTC)

Interesting. Seems to be quite a mixture of sources, though. - Mustafaa 7 July 2005 21:40 (UTC)

How does that compare to adherents.com? Tom Haws July 7, 2005 23:01 (UTC)

Their methodology is laughable, this is how they calculated the Chinese Muslim population as they explain on their web site:

"At present, according to official statistics there are 28 million Muslim in China but in 1936 it was estimated that the Muslim population was 48 million. By this time total population has increased 3-4 fold. So we can conclude that the total Muslim population has increased minimum by that same proportion. Therefore, now the total Muslim population is at least 150 million."

--Urchid 9 July 2005 00:39 (UTC)

I would look with skepticism at any source that is seemingly set up just to elucidate the public about Muslim population. I do agree that it is an intersting look but I think we need to know more about their methodology and if anyone of note actually believes that methodology is sound. 217.187.63.91, want to comment more about why you posted this? gren 9 July 2005 01:24 (UTC)

The English version is 'locked' and a lot of squabbling (and some well reasoned yet endless arguing). Please take a look at 'ISLAM' entries in other languages: Short and succinct, no 'lock' no squabbling. {peter}

especially note de:Bild:Islamische Länder.png, a much nicer map than our CIA one! And yes, the quibbling here is quite embarassing, I agree. dab (ᛏ) 18:12, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Since it's hard to judge which claim is right, why don't we just show the range of the respectable sources, i.e. say "The Muslim population is estimated anywhere from 1.2 billion to 1.7", or whatever the range is.(---)

Other meanings of the word "Islam"

On 23 June 2005 I inserted this section:
Other meanings of the word
The word "Islam" is sometimes used as a man's name, for example Islam Karimov (president of Uzbekistan).
Do not confuse with the village of Isleham in England.

and 3 minutes later someone removed it, stating this reason: "Other meanings" section not needed. It's pretty obvious info that does not need to be inserted. There are people named christian too but that isn't mentioned in the christianity article. Thanks.
But important words sometimes do have differing secondary meanings, and Islam Karimov is notable politically.
And the page Christian DOES have a pointer to Christian (disambiguation), which lists assorted other meanings of the word "Christian". Anthony Appleyard 17:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't Islam mean "Faith" not submission? (someone wrote)

The Arabic root s-l-m makes words with many meanings centering on "be safe", "submit", "surrender", etc. Its basic verb salama means "he became safe", "he is safe". Formally, the word 'islām is the infinitive of derived stem IV (= 4) of the root s-l-m; it means "submission". Anthony Appleyard 05:48, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

it can also mean Peace, as the Qur'an itself uses the word to invite non Muslims into Islam saying=, "Enter into Peace" where it uses the same 3 root letters s-l-m for the word peace (al slm) --GNU4Eva 18:36, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, if necessary, we can have a page Islam (disambiguation). Today, "Islam" simply means Islam. By root etymology it can mean anything from 'faith' to 'sumbission' to 'feeling safe because God is your buddy', I suppose, there is no single correct translation. dab (ᛏ) 18:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Page protection

Does anyone have a view as to whether the page still needs to be protected? It's been locked for nearly two weeks, so it should probably be unlocked some time soon. SlimVirgin 01:23, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I think it should still be protected. There are still editors around who seem to want it to read like a "faith freedom" diatribe which would only lead to revert wars. Since there is no discussion about any possible improvements to the article I think having it locked for the time being is more productive than arguing about bad edits more. gren 03:17, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

the page was reverted at least twice a day for months. one fanatic with no grasp of policy should not be allowed to hold it hostage. plus, I did make a suggestion, namely to replace the map, see above. dab (ᛏ) 08:48, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Can we unprotect yet? Maybe if the Islam-bashers give us a short break, we can indeed try to insert more material critical of Islam, as long as it is well-founded, and not hateful drivel. As soon as Islam-hyping editors try to insert their biased eulogies, I will immediately take the side of Islam critics. We are here for well-founded analysis, not for spin-doctoring (and no, FFI is not even 'spin doctoring', it's just cheap hate speech). As it is, the fundamentalists are preventing us from getting any serious work done on the article. I want to unprotect it and let them see how far they can get. Editing without consensus is pointless on WP, you are just reverted and hit the 3RR within minutes. Learn to cooperate and to 'write for the enemy', or sit back and watch. dab (ᛏ) 10:42, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

If I may, with respect, repeat a key concept:

• "Editing without consensus is pointless on WP, you are just reverted and hit the 3RR within minutes."

Peace, and I hope we do unlock the page and all work together to improve it. BrandonYusufToropov 16:50, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Okay, as a couple of people want it unlocked, and as we're not supposed to protect pages for too long, I've unlocked it, so happy editing. SlimVirgin 17:52, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

world population numbers

I don't want to enter any of the heated discussions about religion, just the population numbers.

The section toward the end "The demographics of Islam today" has some numbers that struck me as odd. The last sentence in the first paragraph reads "According to "The Almanac Book of Facts", the overall population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%.".

What is 'the overall population'? And what is 'the last decade?' This of course depends on when 'now' is. Also, what is the Almanc Book of Facts?

The number that set off alarms in my head was 137%. Surely the world hasn't more than doubles in 10 years! The US Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html) claims the world population in 1995 was about 5.694 billion, as opposed to 6.451 in 2005. That's an increase of (new-old)/old = 13.3%.

I'm not involved in demographics. But the phrasing of that paragraph, and the citing of a book I never heard of, caught my attention. Especially when online sources like Census are available, maybe one of them should be cited.

OK, now you can start flaming me!

yes, these numbers are obviously wrong. people here have been fighting over demographics for ages now. Population growth is in 3rd world countries, and I am not sure how prestigious it is for either world religion to claim a greater part of the starving masses. It is getting boring. Also, Farhansher, can you not just say according to whom Islam is fastest-growing, and leave it at that, since apparently the claim is disputed? Unless you do that, the article will never be stable. dab (ᛏ) 08:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

factoids

can we have a discussion of why green is the colour of Islam, and maybe also a few words about Muhammad's calendar reform (if I got this right, he set prayer times to not coincide with with astronomical events (sunset, sunrise), so that the impression would not arise that heavenly bodies were adored (as was common over much of Arabia in his days)). the main article Islamic calendar isn't even in the Islam template. The prohibition of intercalary months has some political significance, since it was a matter of political influence which clan got to decide when they were inserted. The role of the new sickle moon should be mentioned, and possibly how it found its way onto Turkish flags. dab (ᛏ) 12:35, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

thanks Zora; we can always link Symbols of Islam, and reduce the section to a sentence or two. dab (ᛏ) 06:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

ffi

seeing that ffi.org is a site of an alleged apostate, I suppose the link could be added to Apostasy in Islam, where at least it will be relevant (and there are only two links there so far, so pruning is not yet an issue). I still think it is a hateful website, but as a compromise I think it could be added there (or a see also to Ali Sina). Insisiting to put it here is Misplaced Pages:Main article fixation. dab (ᛏ) 20:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

There is a POV on Islam held by Ex-muslims and Apostates. Where is that expressed or mentioned on this page? Cannot the ex-muslims get simply an external link to a list of links? Why not? Why attempt to suppress their views on Islam? Personally I do not agree with their views entirely, but I do strongly believe that they deserve a link to their list. -Nickbee

There is a POV on Islam that is held by unverifiable & no where to be found people who know nothing about Islam & who call themselves ex-mulims to give some credibility to their hate speech. Credibility , verifiability & authenticity are very important things . So why do they deserve a link ?

The views of Irshad Manji, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina, Dr. Yunus Sheik, Robert Spencer, SecularIslam.org, etc. etc. views on Islam at a minimum need a link. Any criticism of Islam is labeled a hate speech here apparently. Apostacy is punishable by death and people are still being put to death for apostacy in muslim countries. So it is not surprising that many of the apostates do not want to be publicising there ID's. But many have. These people do have a point of view and it does need to be heard by people. -Nickbee

Nickbee, Ali Sina and Ibn Warraq are simply not in the same league. Ibn Warraq doesn't engage in cheap hate speech and uses his books to present useful selections from academic viewpoints on Islam. His books are found in many of the reference lists in the Islamic articles. Of course, they are regularly purged by anon editors, presumably Muslim, who object to his presence, and just as often restored by me or another editor. You can't leap from "my favorite demagogue isn't featured" to "no criticism is allowed". Zora 21:38, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

How about Robert Spencer, SecularIslam, Dr. Yunus Sheik, and others? Why not link to a list of links provided by Robert Spencer? A list of links to the POV of Ex-muslims is a useful addition to this article. You don't like FFI,fine, why not make a list of links to Ex-muslims and Critical of Islam and give that list? -Nickbee

Ibn Warraq is an ex-Muslim. His first book was Why I Am Not A Muslim. He publishes under a pseudonym because he's afraid of assassination. Is that authentic enough for you? Sheesh. I don't agree with the guy on many things, but he's at least honest and thoughtful. Zora 07:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

PS -- We already have articles on Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji. Zora 07:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

by all means, do an article on Christian converts from Islam, and we can link it from the see also. My prediction is that Muslim converts from Christianity will immediately follow, but then the dispute will at least finally take some sort of productive form. dab (ᛏ) 07:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

it is obvious from your answers where your emphasis lies: who cares who converts to what or from what. Why not link to a list of links or provide a directory with a list of links to sites that has a list of sites that are in opposition to Islam. You just do not want to allow the POV of ex-muslims on the page of Islam. Why not add a section on the Islam page about what are the views of ex-muslims on Islam; ex-muslims like Ibn-Warraq, Salman Rushdie, Dr. Yunus Sheik, Irfan Khawaja etc.

I think this has been discussed again and again above. It's not about ex-Muslims... being an ex-Muslim does not mean you have anything more to offer than Zora, you, or I have to. Islam is not a cult where those who have come out of it have secret tales. I can read the material and go to a khutbah just like anyone else. An ex-Muslim point of view is nothing special. gren 17:17, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

gren, The ex-Muslim point of view on Islam is very special as far as Islam goes. It lays out the intent and the practice of Islam from a very special angle. They present the content of Islamic literature and history which is different than the views of christian, jews, hindus, buddhists, etc. who might choose to criticise Islam. As far as I understand they present the same facts as the muslims about Islam but they do emphasise it differently. It is obvious to me after watching some of the changes being added in and reverted on the contents of the page, that the sectarian view within Islam is very healthy and strong. There is no single "Islam" despite the pretense by some of the more established editors. There is the sunni, shia, Ahmeddiya, Ismaili, etc. etc. islam which emphasise different aspects of the scriptures and history. Ex-muslims present a different view of islam and its practices. Nickbee 18:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

revert warring

seeing that the ffi link added by anonymous IPs, probably by one person ("Nickbee"), and removed by several established editors, it is very clear where consensus lies. Further adding of the link is in violation of policy. The various IPs should be considered on editor, and should be blocked for 3RR. Nickbee, if you create an account, you will at least be heard as one voice. You'll still be outnumbered, but you could look for a compromise. This anonymous edit-warring must stop, however, and I will take it upon myself to block the IPs for 3RR. dab (ᛏ) 07:07, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Dab, Show me where I have violated the 3RR policy? Do you really think that all those IP's who are reverting for ffi belong to myself. Look at the times, and look at the IP's and their locations. You want to block the IP's go ahead. Anyone who disagrees with you obviously needs to be blocked.

That is understandable that you will not allow even a single link to ex-muslims. I have not violated the 3RR rule. I have inserted the ffi link couple of times a day and I will continue to do so till I am able to get a real vote on the issue as to why the POV of ex-muslims is being intentionally blocked. I do not know how Wickipedia is organised, but I will learn. There is a list of sites at ffi that does deserve to be listed. There is a list of books available online with links at ffi that someone posted yesterday and even that was deleted. If the translations of the original books on Islam cannot be tolerated by the established editors then there is a problem with the editors and the wikipedia as a organisation will have to deal with it. Do not blame me for all of the revisions. It is not surprising at all that you are resorting to threats without any basis. -Nickbee

Nickbee, firstly, it would be helpful if you signed your talk posts using "~~~~" which will paste your username and a timestamp. Also, as he said, there is something to being an established editors. If you stay here long enough you will realize that many people come crusading about certain issues and editors have to come and work communally and build a reputation for doing that. It is important to learn how concensus works at wikipedia and that was what dab was talking about. I think about the anonymous IPs his problem is that they are usually first time (or close to it) editors just trying to re-add that link. It is hard to see what anonymous editors have to do with this and why they would just randomly stop by and cause a revery war. Either way it is not something very helpful. gren 17:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

gren, I am a newbie as far as wikipedia goes. I do not know how the various stuff works and what information is available and what the various rules are, but I am slowly learning. Thank you for telling me about the 4 tilda's. I will try it. A couple of the anon ip's are mine. It is because I do not remember to log in when I get to this site. Is there a way to automatically log in? But not all the IP's are mine. I counted about 9 IP's supporting the inclusion of the links critical of Islam. I urge those people to acquire an id. I am not very facile with computers. I am not attempting to cause any trouble, but I do strongly beleive that the Ex-muslims do have something valid to say about islam. I do not agree with everything they say. They have specific things to say about Islam and I wish some of them would contribute to the page under the section of Islam as seen by Ex-muslims. But that view does need at a minimum a link. You guys don't like ffi and condemn it as a hate site, but then how do I go about creating a directory at wikipedia where links to secualarislam.org, Robert spencer's site, Irfan Khawaja's site, irshad manji's site and all the other 74 links at ffi or the various links found at Robert spencer's site can be entered and then a link provided to that directory. If I am to be banned, I will be banned, but I was raised to have complete faith in free speech and the right of people with opposing views to be heard. Nickbee 18:01, 19 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

most newbies try to get the feel of the place before they start full-scale edit wars and ranting at people. I hope you will become a good faith editor, a critical viewpoint is much needed, but you need to learn a lot about how WP operates first. please take your time. Take an interest in builiding an encyclopedia, and what that means, not just in a single link you want to see added. You have time, and once you get the feel of how to argue, and what you can acheive, you are very welcome to watch these articles and add your critical viewpoint. Just edit warring will not do, though. dab (ᛏ) 19:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Where is Wiki's Famous NPOV with regards to Islam

Why do the editors of this page refuse to recognize that Muslim's who have left Islam have a very specific and particular view on Islam? Why is that view being totally and completely ignored here? Is the "hate" being expressed by the ex-muslims for Islam any stronger or different than the hate that the two sides of the abortion debate (the example given in the FAQ by wiki foundation to explain NPOV)? Many ex-muslims do express their rejection of Islam in very strong language but others do not? Zora has given an example of ibn Warraq as a scholarly ex-muslim. Even his take on Islam and questioning of Islam do not find a single line in this article. I have spent time over the last couple of days at Ali Sina's site. A lot of people here find it a hate site! it is a site that does not make any bones about that it considers Islam as Evil and holds the terrorism at present around the globe as a consequence of the teachings of Islam. If you consider those thesis as apriori evil, then FFI is a hate site for you. It is a site that has very very strong views on Islam and that is not hesitant to express it. Often it does not couch its criticism in a language that makes its message any easier to swallow. The point is not whether Ali Sina's site should be given a link or not. The point is that you cannot pretend that the view on Islam is complete in the present day world without considering the Ex-muslim's view on Islam. You can ignore it as you are choosing to do so, but that makes your encyclopedia incomplete and biased. Why is there a confusion between the "Evil ideology" that Tony Blair's government wants to fight and Islam? You want to hide that under Islamicism, and other side topics and pretend that islam has nothing to do with the those who are claiming that they are motivated by Islam and that they are the only true muslims. You pretend that there is no civil war going on within islam and there a people who are battling and killing around the world to win the hearts and minds of the muslims. Look at Zora's comments about the anon Salafi who edited the article yesterday! Why not acknowledge that the islam of the Salafi's is different from the islam of the Sunni's which is different from the islam of the Shia's? Why not allow these different views to be expressed on the islam page? Instead of trying to force a single view of Islam, why not take the NPOV guidelines into consideration and allow a disscussion of the different views of Islam? Nickbee 18:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

What... see Salafi, Shia, Sunni... that might help... ex-Muslims don't have a great insight. As I've said above, Islam is not a cult hidden from view that when someone gives up Islam they have special information about Islam. They have no special knowledge. gren 18:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes gren, look at how you treat shia Islam, sunni Islam, salafi islam, etc. You give a main page to Islam as if there is a "Islam" and then you branch off with links to these other pages. The history of Islam as discussed on the page is woefully inadequate. If there was a central acceptable version of Islam why do different sects keep wanting to change what wiki has decided is islam? You keep saying that Ex-muslims do not have special information about islam. But they do have a different interpretation just as the other sects of Islam do. This is all about interpretation is it not? Are you suggesting that all the writings of ibn Warraq do not provide any insight into what is Islam? Nickbee 18:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

The history of Islam on this page is not supposed to be definitive. There is a page, History of Islam where more Detail can be found and edited in.--Irishpunktom\ 19:01, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Islam is a title that encompasses all of them. You are human, I am human, we are not the same, but there is still the concept of human. Same idea. I mean, everyone who has heard of Islam has an interpretation. I am not Muslim, I still have an interpretation. Yet, that is not going to be added to this page. Religion is defined by religious members, not by outsiders, the outside opinion is done by scholars, etc. gren 19:16, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Well there is a link to Dmoz , it gives links to the so called ex-muslim sites . Other than that , this article is about Islam , not views on Islam , right ??

People who are ex-muslims clearly say what they are . They dont twist the meanings of verses , they dont hide behind their pathetic "they will kill me" excuses . If they/he/U are so knowledgeable on Islam , ask any scholar to enter in a debate with U . That isnt hapenning anywhere on these hate sites . Rather they block users who start showing showing them their real face , & ridicule teenagers with their infinite bigotery & hypocracy . AS I said b4 , U have to prove they actually are ex-muslims . Any body can make a hate site & claim they were muslims & wont reveil their identity b/c somebody will kill them . I can say Christians & jews are S*Bs & I know it because I was once one of them( like what sina says ), but that doesnt make me important enough to be added to encyclopedia . It doesent even make me important enough to be talked about . Their are christian/jew/hindu views too about Islam , and well...these people are atleast verifiable . There are Islamic views about christianity/judaism/hinduism too . We dont add these anywhere .

About Blair..

HE says he is a christian

He doesnt say he is an ex-muslim

He doesnt hide behind excuses

People know him , he is reachable, talkable, debateable person

He doesnt say he knows Islam better than muslims

He doesnt say all muslims are dogs

He doesnt say muhammad was a pedophile

If he says so , He is accountable to others ( people, courts )

He particularly says about extremism/terrorism & not about all muslims

He doesnt say all muslim scientists/sufis/philosophers were apostates.

Well list can go on & on ........

Another thing , only for brainy guys . Suppose I leave Islam , due to some theoreatical conflicts , why the hell would I call my self a kaffir . That word doesnt even represent my self image . I would use some nice words do describe myself . If I use these kaffir words for me , it only implies that I still see myself as what muslims think of me . But that would/should only happen if I still see myself associated with Islam . So , if I leave Islam , Iwont call myself a kaffir . I will only use this word for me to gather hate for Islam . OK may be its too much ....

Anyways , is this a mere coincidence that there are two well known trolls associated with FF , namely Imanuel & a kaffir , backing such a nice person like U . And using the same filthy language that they use on FF . And is this again a coincidence that U come here ( like a lot of others ) , only to add link to your precious site , and copy/paste material from it . Farhansher 19:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

But they do have a different interpretation just as the other sects of Islam do. This is all about interpretation is it not? Are you suggesting that all the writings of ibn Warraq do not provide any insight into what is Islam?

Some important concepts to be understood here

1 . How do you define sect ? How does somebody lying on the outside becomes a sect ? Why should the views of any XYZ person be discussed ? Dont they have any lerned scholars ?

2 . Do I study books by anonymous doctors ( who say I left medicine ) in medicine course , or anonymous engineers im my B.S ? Farhansher 19:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Show one post that has been blocked at FFI. Show one person who has been silenced at FFI. Go to FFI and say whatever you like and see if you ever get banned or your post is deleted. Killing apostates is what muslims do everyday in the Islamic world. I am an apostate. I know. A Kaffir 21:34, 20 July 2005 (UTC)A Kaffir

All the pro-Islam websites are linked through the DMOZ directory. All the anti-Islam websites are linked though the DMOZ directory. There is no discrimination against your favorite site. You are demanding special treatment and not getting it. Zora 21:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

May I suggest to add similar links in other religions articles. Ericd 22:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I've added similar links to Christianity. Ericd 22:14, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

gren, I thought Ibn Warraq was an outside Scholar!

Zora, Look you do not like FFI, do not allow it, but there are a lot of links and books at their site that should be provided to people who want to know more about Islam. Tell me a way how the links that are on those pages can be provided to the readers here. What is so special about the link to a german site that gets prominance here? Zora you list being at Berkeley. Is this what you learnt at a University famous for Free Speech about free speech? I wish your class mates from Berkeley could see you now.

Farhansher: there is a page on AliSina on Misplaced Pages. So he is somewhat famous already. Ibn Warraq is an ex-muslim and is considered a scholar and has expressed fairly strong views on Islam and he is still anonymous because he does fear for his life and he has been threatened inneumerable times. Irfan Khawaja was anonymous till very recently and he has published and written on Islam extensively. Being anonymous as an apostate of Islam is not something that discredits a person automatically. Many of the apostates do have families back in Islamic countries where they would be at risk if their apostacy becomes public. I am not trying to defend Ali Sina here, but I have seen testimonials from ex-muslims on his site thanking him and praising him. He does have an audience. As far as I can tell, A. Kaffir is correct, that they do make a big deal about never censoring and/or banning anyone over there. There is a lot of material posted at that site from muslims themselves apparently. Whether you like it or not, the actions of muslims themselves have brought islam to the attention of the general people in the West. UK is suddenly considering making a control list of muslims not allowed in UK similar to the one that exits in USA. One does not have to agree with a word that is said by Ali Sina or his site, but he has a right as far as I can tell in Canada and in the US to say what he does. I am not sure whether European laws would allow him to write the way he does. Europeans apparently are not as strong sticklers for free speech as we across the Atlantic. I am no psychiatrist but an apostate perhaps never really leaves his childhood faith truly and perhaps that explains the nick A. Kaffir? I though Kaffir was not a hate term but an accurate description of one who is not a christian, a jew, a zorastrian, and also not a muslim. I thought there was Sura in the Quran titled Kaffirs.

I still think and believe that some mention of the views on Islam by any of the more well known ex-muslims and links to material by them ought to be part of this page. By insisting on excluding them completely, you are not being neutral about the topic at all, but definately being a partisan. Nickbee 02:11, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

NPOV on Islam!! LOL! Second bombing in London and Jihad under Islam at Wickipedia: "Striving to seek God's approval (Jihad)" Gimme a break! Jamiat-ul-Islamia could not have a better propoganda page than Wiki's page on Islam. And Gren will tell you that Ex-muslims know nothing about Islam. What a farce! Thankyou for Islamofascism, Nickbee. Couple more bombings and a few hundred dead in Europe and then .... Exmuslim 16:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim

Cleaned up the languate surrounding that link (needed to be clearer what it was) but it's NOT a "hate site" as certain POV warriors seem to think. If you disagree, please discuss it in talk before reverting.Existentializer 16:44, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Zora from Berkeley should love this one. Iraqi women are protesting the new constitution because of the non-existent rights for women under Islamic law Shareeya, and Wiki page on Islam has only one mention of Women: "Muhammad gave rights to women ...." LOL!! This is the NPOV of Wiki? And Ex-muslims do not know anything about Islam, Gren? And Zora the buddhist is busy enforcing suppression of Women under Islam. Is that a new Zen Koan? Exmuslim 17:01, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim

Todays Asia Times states:Fighting the uncivil fight. European Union officials, not to mention Europe-wide public opinion, are starting to confront a very serious question: how to fight jihad inside the EU without infringing on civil liberties, thereby playing into the jihadis' hands. -"This message is the final warning to European states. We want to give you a one-month deadline to bring your soldiers out from the land of Mesopotamia." - Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, July 16 What fighting Jihad? You mean someone wants to fight "Striving to seek God's approval?" LoL! Wiki's NPOV? No, No, hide the if and buts in sublinks and sub pages. On the front keep the "Striving to seek God's approval" and "rights of Women". Italy after August 16? Or will it be Denmark striving to seek God's approval in 3 weeks time?Exmuslim 17:43, 21 July 2005 (UTC) Ex-muslim

Todays Christian Science Monitor: "Some of the people tell you Islam is a religion of peace because they think that then you'll want to convert," says Dublin-born convert Khalid Kelly, who soaks up Abu Osama's sidewalk sermon. "But you cannot possibly say Islam is a religion of peace; jihad is not an internal struggle." "How dare anyone come on television and say suicide bombings are not part of our belief?" And a lot more on how Brits are going to get killed by other brits, and Gren and coterie tell us that Ex-muslims know nothing about Islam. How are the people ever going to understand Islam and what it is doing? That does not concern the dhimmis and Islamofascists at Misplaced Pages. Hate? Europe has not seen hate yet, but it is beginning to. Ask the Indians, they will tell you about hate. Ask the arab christians, they will tell you about hate. NPOV at wiki on Islam? LOL! Exmuslim 18:30, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim

This from this weeks Time Magazine, Irshad Manji, an Ex-muslim speaking: "The student shifted uncomfortably. She just couldn't bring herself to examine

my suggestion seriously. And I suppose I couldn't expect her to. Not when Muslim leaders themselves won't go there. Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general for 

the Muslim Council of Britain, is an example. In the midst of a debate with me, he listed potential incentives to bomb, including "alienation" and "segregation." But Islam? God forbid that the possibility even be entertained.

That is the dangerous denial from which mainstream Muslims need to emerge. While our spokesmen assure us that Islam is an innocent bystander in today's terrorism, those who commit terrorist acts often tell us otherwise."

NO NO NO, what would an Ex-muslim know about Islam that Wiki on Islam does not already explain! Link to an Ex-muslim POV ..... Hate hate hate Site, But the 600 suicide bombers of Iraq, the dead in England, the killing in India .... that is not hate. NO not hate at all ... that is "alienation" that is "segregation" that is "marginalization"!! Islam ... Oh that is ever so a peaceful religion. LOL! NPOV of wiki? Ex-muslims have no POV on Islam says the Edddditors. Exmuslim 19:59, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-Muslim

Wiki policy states talk out the differences under "Talk". But no one chose to respond to obvious NON-NPOV stance of Mirv, Zora, Grenavitor, Yusuf, and Faransher (have not seen dab lately) who insist on imposing their POV as the only one that exists. "One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists By Anthony King (Filed: 23/07/2005)" from telegraph.co.uk. How misleading can be "Islam does not say anything. People say things about Islam" : Grenavitor. Taqqiya all the way, but the body bags are starting to tell people that islam does say things that you all are busy suppressing here. But not for long. Read Andrew Bolt at the Herald Sun in Australia: "It's time we accepted the difficult truth: many of the Muslims we invite to live in Australia want to destroy us. FOR four years, since the September 11 attacks, I've begged our Islamic leaders to drive extremists from their mosques. For four years I've also reassured you that most Muslims here are moderate...." Read it all. Islam does say things, Gren. What it says is just not very pretty. Exmuslim 18:07, 23 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-Muslim

Civility

Respectfully disagree. BrandonYusufToropov 16:48, 21 July 2005 (UTC) And I respectfully tell you that you are utterly wrong Yusuf. Exmuslim 16:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)Ex-muslim

Anon's edits on Islam and other religions

An anon added a passage to the section on Islam and other religions by saying, in effect, "yes, but sura 9 was revealed after non-Muslims had been picking on the Muslims". The section is just a pointer to the main article, and not the place to go into apologetics -- and I also think that many traditionalist Muslims wouldn't agree that parts of the Qur'an should be ignored because "that was then and this is now". Just adding that one sentence is lame apologetics. Perhaps the anon could go to the main article on Islam and other religions and make sure that his/her point is expressed there. Zora 07:54, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Anon is vandalizing user talk postings here

]

Looks like a different anon. BrandonYusufToropov 15:29, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

It's seems to be isolated, maybe dab forgot to sign in. Hopefully it won't happen again. gren 20:03, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I think a "criticism of Islam" article or section is required

In fact, I think any and every article about a controversial subject should have such a section or companion article. Islam certainly qualifies.

I think the "house of war" and the Islamic distinction between civilians and combatants, if any, as well as myriad other subjects, are worth presenting here.

side note: there are many logical absurdities proffered on this page, but one above stuck out for me, the idea that an editor is "proven" biased because he's interested in criticizing one historical figure (in this case a Muslim one), but not interested in criticizing others (in this case, non-Muslim ones).

That's blog-logic, not real logic. It's a common error that seems only to be trotted out against a certain subset of ideas. There are many books that criticize Christianity and its history, in fact it's a cottage industry. No one ever accuses the authors of bias just because they don't devote equal time to the criticism of Jews and Muslims.

It is not critique in general -- it is the type. Bias is not within the realm of logic so I fail to grasp your point. There are different kinds of criticism -- Ali Sina type, Ibn Warraq type, and Fazlur Rahman type. Two of those deserve to be represented, one does not. It is also interesting to point out that Ali Sina would be criticism over the existence of Islam, whereas the other two do not blanket the issue and call Muslims inhuman -- ecause that would be 'bbs-flamewar-logic' ~_~ gren 19:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Wiki Editors are not interested or "Burnt out", I cannot say which, but they have not bothered replying to Ex-Muslims objections on ignoring Wiki's NPOV. Unwilling to consider any objective view on Islam, considering the "Western" view on Islam as anathema, their righteousness declares the voice of Ex-muslims as "hate"; which neatly fits into the muslim law of silencing the Apostates one way or the other. The all knowing Wiki's editors are enforcing the silencing of Ex-muslims and their views. Terrorism is associated with Islam at present, and there is not a mention of that on this page of Islam. Ali Sina's voice is to be suppressed by Muslims like Grenavitar at any cost. If Ali Sina is correct on Islam then suppressing his voice is a crime. If Ali Sina is a paranoid then who cares. One in 4 muslims in the West hates the West, is that a lie as well? A Kaffir 19:55, 23 July 2005 (UTC)AKaffir.

Ex-Muslims are not a cohesive viewpoint -- some just don't believe the claims of Islam while some actively dislike Islam. This debate has not been about ex-Muslims in general it has been about Ali Sina and his links. Terrorism is associated with Islam at present and before that it was probably more related to Irish Catholics. However high profile these things may be it does not define the religion. Ali Sina, Edip Yuksel and similar voices are being suppressed because they are not a notable scholarly view of Islam. It's that simple. It does not help your cause to call other people Muslims who are not. As for 1/4 of Muslims in the west hating the west you'd have to provide a good source for that ~_~ gren 01:29, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree but the mullahs and their cohorts are not known for tolerating criticism. So do not hold out any hope.

Ask Sina to enter in a debate with any well known scholar of Islam . There are scholars from Jamia-al-azhar who specialise in Shafi/Malki madhabs , & Darululoom Deoband who specialise in Hanafi madhab . Winning that debate will make him a legitimate person to be dicsussed . But before that , he/you is just somebody running some hate site on the net . If you thing Islam is bad , you should also give an alternative , when same question was asked be him/his followers , he said "A film critic doesnt have to make good films" . Well what can I say about that .

Those self proclaimed ex-muslims werent answered b/c there was noting to answer there . Before you there was an arab ex-muslim here who couldnt speak a word of Arabic . I have talked to some of those so called apostates who dont even know about Islamic conceept of Monotheism . And whats even funnier , they always mix christian concepts with Islam . Many of them have got a mental capacity of only copying half verses ( Like kill all infidels ) that are quoted by Sina . And Sina doesnt even know what is the difference between a Sufi & an apostate . Clearly shows what they are . Farhansher 05:22, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I also think a "criticism of islam" article or section is required in the Islam section of Misplaced Pages, for the simple reason that the religion is by a large part based on the criticisms of the "unbelievers" of 7th century that were allegedly levelled against it.....the Quran and ahadith are proliferated with commandments, directions, guidances and appeals to specifically deal with the criticisms and the critics of Mohammed and his islam these criticisms existed during the time of the "revelations" being delivered and much of Quran specifically is Allah's reaction to thses criticisms.

It still needs to be addressed and allowed to continue........people who would seek to know more about Mohammed and Islam are entiteled to have access to the very type of criticisms that may arise, due to the fact that the 7th century critics no longer exist and their story can not be fully explored, it makes good sense to allow these criticisms to re-emerge for seekers of information about Islam to compare the issues that existed in yester-year and in today's world. Islam's Quran is not a closed book, nor is the issue of criticism that it appears is a larger part of it's very reason for existing a closed matter. Mohammed may have deemed the matter closed/locked-thread with his "revelations" and "final word of god", not so those who would seek to continue their "revelations" of opinion and criticism, some on hehalf of their ancestors who may well have been targets of quran's punishing guidances. As we have muslim editors here at Wikipeadia who might seek to silence the critics of Mohammed and his Islam, in affect a form of emulating 7th century doctrine and practise, so too we have people here who take the other view as was the case in 7trh century Arabia. Question is, what are the muslims here so afraid of in being so apparently obstinently persistent in seeking to silence the critics? (unsigned by 211.27.142.217)

People, please sign your talk-page posts!

Ok, for those who don't remember or wasn't around: There was an article on this. It was created back in 2002 but was deleted quite recently, on June 18, 2005. See (but don't edit) the debate on Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Criticism of Islam. The content of the article the last months was just an intro reading:

Criticism of Islam has been becoming more visible in world media, particularly in America recently and especially in the period after the September 11 terrorist attacks and the larger involvement of American and European countries in conflicts involving Muslims around the world.

That was all the content after almost 3 years of revert-wars and bickering on the talk-page. And then there was a long list of external links to various web sites. I was the one nominating it for deletion on June 5, for which I not only was flamed for being a Islamist (I'm not a muslim, trust me...) but also accused of having invited my islamists friends to vote (I don't even know any muslims). Anyway, I still stand by my nomination. But after seing some other and actually quite good "criticism" articles on other topics, I'm not completely against it myself if it can be made NPOV and encyclopedic. But at the very least come up with some lasting agreable "criticism" content in this, the Islam article, first before thinking about spawning it out to it's own "criticism" article again. If people really feel like going for it I sugest using this talk-page to come up with and agree on content (content, not just links) to avoid further revert-wars. Shanes 08:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

External links wrangle

. . .has lead to protection of the article. Discussion here doesn't seem to be moving towards any kind of consensus and has gone far off the track. I've put up a summary of past arguments and a recap of the two views on the faithfreedom links on Talk:Islam/External links; if we concentrate on the discussion there, maybe we can reach some kind of consensus. If not, then perhaps it's time to hold a poll. —Charles P. (Mirv) 16:01, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• I am not involved and don't have an opinion on this subject, but my opinion on your work here is that it seems to be very helpful. --Noitall 16:04, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

• I am involved and do have an opinion on this subject, but I second that emotion. BrandonYusufToropov 16:27, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• Charlie my man, your islam page reads like a dawa pamphlet from the neighborhood mosque. Why terrorism flourishes in Islam, why women are shrouded in black or blue body bags, why all the suicide bombers say they are true muslims, why there are so many imams who support suicide bombers as Islamic, etc. etc. etc.? And what do I find on charlies page? Charlie and friends shutting up the ex-muslims and calling FFI a hate site. I went to FFI and learnt more about Islam in half an hour than anywhere else. You want straight talk, go to FFI and get the dope on Islam. You and your muslim buddies will not allow the facts on Islam here.

• I am user Qassim666. I was banned after one day at this site because I said FFI should have voice. I was called sock puppet and I need to give addressess to get unbanned. Now SlimVirgin threaten me that I will banned if I make one mistake. This is muslim mentality. This is not site that want to tell truth. This is site that has muslim in control of Islam information. I will not be here anymore. But I will tell the world about muslim mind SlimVirgin, mullah farhansher, muslim yusuf, and editor charles Mirv who do not want to tell truth about Islam. More people know how muslim control islam page here the better. Goodbye.

It is idiocy to use the word Muslim or related terms as an insult to editors. If you believe an editor is working from a biased point of view then feel free to talk about that... but, it has no bearing whatsoever if they are Muslim, Christian, or conjoined twins. I do not know if it falls under the no personal attacks policy, but, it's typically frowned upon by most editors. As for my hopes to make the world a better place with less blanket labelling I would encourage you to, no matter how you find Islam, realize that there is quite a plurality of Islamic views and whether or not you agree that they are true or not judge a Muslim on their actions, not your perception of their religion. We must acknowledge in articles that Muslims and non-Muslims have various interpretations of Islam and therefore "muslim mentality" in the sense of cohesive unity on all issues by all Muslims as you put it has no meaning. So, have a nice day and try to like everyone O_O --gren 07:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Having come off a block for being a sock puppet, I can understand the frustration. Gren, what you say is indeed true, but those who have been touched by the 'true beleivers' of islam recently, or those who have personally given up submitting to islam, your advice may seem too reasonable to be acceptable. There is now a growing segment of opinion around the world that is beginning to treat 'muslim' as an insult. I assume the family of the buddhist monk that was beheaded yesterday in thailand may be excused if they feel strongly against Islam. I do not hold it against Qasim666 if he is an ex-muslim. He is expressing his personal reality. I just hope time and hindsight will smoothen some of the pain. Islam of Fazl-ul-rahman is found in his books perhaps; he was essentially exiled from his homeland and disowned by his own people. Isalm is not going anywhere, but those who do consider 'muslim' an insult these days because of the actions of those who claim to be true muslims do have 'an opinion' that I may not agree with but I do not have a right to deny them their experience by claiming it to be illegitimate.

Nickbee 17:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Islam and Freedom of Speech

• Folks do not get surprised at the response you get from Muslim editors when trying to insert information not in line with the Islamic talking points. You get a taste of what Islam is like. Utterly intolerant of other POVs.
• In countries ruled by Islamic law and where political Islam holds sway, writers, thinkers, philosophers, activists, and artists are frequently denied freedom of expression.
• Islamic regimes are notorious for the violent suppression of free thought. Often, as a government allies itself closely with Islam, any critics of the government will be accused of blasphemy or apostasy.
• In Islam, there exists a great fear of putting the Koran to critical scrutiny. Ordinary people do not dare to question the Koran. The result is tyranny, thought police, and stagnation, no intellectual and moral progress. Even in the academic community it is a taboo to discuss the Koran scientifically. While there exist a growing critical movement to criticise religion, particularly Islam, *Islamists, apologists for Islam, and western governments have come up with the idea of Islamophobia. They try to silence critics. Islam must be subject to critical examination. By silencing critics and calling them racists, Islamists and apologists intend to keep religious domination intact. In Islamic regimes the price for criticising Islam is death in its most horrendous way.
• The pro-Islam editors on this page are simply exhibiting what the nature of Islam is truly like. --Delwigo 03:37, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, especially the atheist, Christian, Jewish, and Buddhist editors. They are certainly a clue as the real nature of Islam <g>. Zora 05:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The greatest intolerance I see asserted in Islamic articles is from those who fail to believe that Islam in any form can be a religion practiced in a way they see acceptable. Intolerance is someone defining Islam and then hating what they have defined. Read Fazlur Rahman for a notable Islamic scholar who takes a critical view, or even Ibn Hazm -- even for his conservative nature in 11th century Al-Andalus -- can show an interesting view into diverse thought. Islam is the totality of Islamic thought, you will believe some of the worldviews created to be good and some to be bad, but you are not here to question the legitimacy of either -- just report it... gren 06:54, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the entire issue is of "just reporting it" here. The contra view of Islam is not being allowed space. There is a need to provide a channel to harness the opinions of those who have views against Islam in a form and manner that would be acceptable to Misplaced Pages.Nickbee 17:34, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

The ignorance in this chain is obvious. I am a muslim, and as far as I know, there are no current countries that follow Islamic Law, so i can only guess what u mean when u say "muslim countries". I assume you mean countries ruled by a muslim dictator. This might shock you, but these people don't follow Islamic law! Just like many Christian leaders dont follow Christian laws. Anyway, Islam is FOR freedom of speech. I've heard that never speaking against a leader is considered "shirk", which means associated partners with God. Also, in Islam, a hadith says that the greatest form of "Jihad" (struggle) is speaking up against an oppressive leader. Of course, I don't expect everyone to know about this, but I do expect you all to not talk about what you're ignorant of, as that is not only unislamic, but generally illogical.

If we put that view and Nickbee's together it would be more representative. Nickbee's right, there are strains of Muslims who are taught not to question their leader like it's their duty and then there are ones that are encouraged to question. Then some don't have leaders. The point is there is a variety. gren 19:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I do agree with Gren that there is a variety. The problem is that the various strands of variety strongly disagree amongst themselves. Many countries do insist upon calling themselves "Islamic" and have sharia courts. Pakistan, Saudia Arabia, Iran, etc. all have explicit laws that no law can be against Islamic law. Shariat Courts are functioning in many countries and have ruled against many civil laws of those countries as not islamic. The civil war within Islam, the disagreements among the muslims, and who they are willing to consider "Islamic" and who is not, is evident to all. Killing of muslims by other muslims who do not consider the slain as either muslims or as acceptable "colletral damage" is rampant across many countries (Iraq, Pakistan, saudi arabia, egypt, and so on). Misplaced Pages cannot and must not be seen as presenting only one side of this battle for 'Islam'. Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedic source can and must present the variety that exists. And, Gren, I do not believe I have ever said that there are strains of Muslims who are taught not to question their leader. I am not sure that Muslims do not question their leader, but my experience has been that nearly all muslims are incapable of questioning the "Quran" and the conduct and charachter of Muhammed. This questioning of the fundamentals is what divides the secular muslims, or the ex-muslims from the muslims more than anything else. Nickbee 20:35, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Islamophobic Link

Robert Spencer's "Jihad Watch" is racist and xenophobic in the extreme. Is it really appropriate to have it link to the Islam page?

It is not racist and xenophobic at all. Why don't you give an example of Robert's racism and xenophobia? You should be able to find something from his extensive site and books. Please give an example. If you cannot then don't slander.

Holy Cities

The city of Qom is by far one of the holiest places for Shiites, this city should be added to the "Holy Cities" section.

thank you

WP underattack by followers of Sina's Cult of phobia

Hi guys

• Ever thought why the Islam related pages have become insane these days ??
• Ever thought If its just a coincidence that we are having very insistent people wanting their unverifiable data to be added on Islam related pages
• Ever thought why there is so much pressure to add links to phobic sites made by illeterate liers that are driven by hate
• Ever thought why there is so much pressure to add a picture of Muhammad riding Burraq to Muhammad page .
• Ever thought why there is so much pressure that Jihad means "holy war"( aka kill all infedils ) only . And not a "cleanse oneself spiritually" kind of philosophy also .

Well every question has an answer , as there is no effect without causality .

The answer is right here , see for your self .

, ]

, ]

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, ]

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, ]

, ]

, ]

As you might have guessed , this is the tip of ice berg . A lot is going on , under cover . Being the followers of a cult , they dont show their intentions . This is why they use PM & not talk about it on forums now . These so called good faith editers are running a whole Project Misplaced Pages to attack each & every page associated with Islam . This has been happening under our noses for not less then 6 months , & now its officially made a project .

There was a thread there which has been deleted by Sina . So for the benifit of all sane thinking people , I have added these threads to WP , so that if some muslim hacks FFI , & by some coincidence only these threads are deleted ( as Sina says ) , then these will be present as an evidence on WP .

Now ,

• Do we want WP to become a mirror site of FFI .
• Do we want phobic psychos to run around all over WP .
• Do we want to explain the same things over & over again to people who always say that they are a newbie on WP , & want to make it better . After some time of copy pasting filth from their hate site, they vanish & some others show up with the same language , same mentality & same "Stuff" .

I was also thinking for some time what happened to all venom spitting Sina-philes , & why are we now having some decent looking people wanting to add their links to WP . Well that is also in the Sinan recommenddations of "How to attack WP" . U can all see Zeno's edits at Muhammad , & Jihad . The pressure to add a picture of Muhammad , pressure to add cresent as a symbol of Islam , Pressure to call Jihad bin nafs some mythical concept popularised by Sufis . Still in Jihad article , Zeno has changed " Ibn taymia, scholar of classical Islam " to " Ibn taymia , The classical, militant scholar of Islam " . Dont you think he could have easily changed to "Ibn taymia , the founder of Salfi thought in Islam . " Do you think its coincidence , or lack of knowledge......nooooo , its called Agenda .Similarly nickbee , who just came here , saying he doesnt accept all that Sina says , but has has written lenthy posts pressurising to add their link . Would any body who doesnt care waste so much time on adding links , He also brought two well known trolls from FFI to back him up . May be its the new strategy , work in clans , one carrot two sticks , & a lot of anon IPs .

If we dont do something , these attacks will occur again & again , week after week , month after month . Its a big waste of time & energy . When I came here , I wanted to add some info about mysticism here . I havebeen here for 5 months now , I have done nothing yet . Why ?? each time I log on to the site , I see Islamophobic cyber terrorists , wrangling to add a picture of Burraq ( like its gonna improve the Quality of article ), or to add a huge unverifiable list of Muhammad's slaves . All in the sugar coating of freedom of speech , childern , fairness , Npov etc . When nothing works they come back to their roots , rants & insults , & the favourites include "appeal to freedom of speech" again . This is going nowhere .

Its now very easy to understand , pename , aldowi , wibidabi , peterchahabi , enviroknot , hate islam , urchid , clt fn , zeno of elea , extensliser , nickbee , a kaffir , ex muslim , Qasim666 .....................& lots of anon IPs , now you guys know where they are coming from .

Any ways , My recommendations ,

• Block the IP used by FFI .

• Ask any body who comes to add hate filled data , to verify it from some authentic Islamic site . It is a waste of time to revert again & again , & to reply lenthy posts made by these people , that are filled with logical fallicies only . Nothing to answer there . If they enter a war of reverts , block their IP .

The choice is ours to make !!!!

Peace Farhansher 20:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

This is paranoia. Do you intend to block all who support letting the Ex-muslims express their view point? Are you planning on making it a litmus test that anyone who posts at FFI cannot contribute at Misplaced Pages? You charge me with deception; did you bother reading the post by Qasim where is posting the letters by SlimVirigin from Misplaced Pages? I was blocked as well. Qasim apparently is a well meaning supporter of FFI, and he does question Islam's fundamentals. You can and obviously do beleive that Jihad means "cleanse oneself spiritually" and not "holy war"( aka kill all infedils ), but hopefully you are willing to accept that there are many muslims who do include "holy war" as part of the meaning of jihad. And I do not agree with Ali Sina's site or all his opinions. I would be a brainless idiot, if I did. But I do not consider his site to be a "hate site". Qasim felt safe enough to go and post his frustration there right away. Did you notice that it was his first post at that site? It means he expected to find "kindered spirits" there. That is the strenght of free speech, atleast in the good ole USA. Do you seriously think that you are going to be able to restrict the opinions of those questioning Islam and its connection to current events as being reflected in the writings of many many authors and journalists around the world away from wikipedia? What kind of an encyclopedia would that be? Nickbee 20:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Farhansher, thank you for the wonderful research! Someone has already tried to delete it once <g>.

This is rather worrisome, as it exploits what I think is a weakness in Misplaced Pages -- the "numbers make right" method of editing. On many articles, it comes down to how many friends you have and how determined you are to make your point. I've been on both sides of this now. In the Islamic articles, despite having arrived as a critic, I now find myself with a good working relationship with editors I regard as "sane" (if not always of my POV, at least ready to discuss and compromise) -- and we're in the majority. In the Iran-related articles, Southern Comfort and Zereshk outnumber and out-revert me. I don't like what I see as their anti-Arab Iranian nationalism, but ... there's just me.

Now the FFI folks are organizing an attack OUTSIDE Misplaced Pages, to recruit enough new editors to swing the Islam-related articles to their POV. Misplaced Pages has only been around for what -- three years? As Misplaced Pages becomes better-known and more popular, it becomes an ever-more-tempting target for folks with an agenda. We're supposed to assume good faith, but ... it's getting harder. It feels like trying to fix the world by convincing one #$%@$#% at a time. Zora 22:36, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh cool, the anon cut this section out of the talk page again, and called me an Islamo-fascist bitch! Zora 22:51, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's interesting. So far Farhansher's evidence, and all comment relating to it, have been blanked seven times. I put up an alert at WP:VIP. Zora 23:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Wow, that's pretty cool. I've written the same thing about 50 times on different talk pages and it is rather frustrating. IFaqeer is gone and so is BrandonYusufToroperson. When Brandon first came I thought he was blantantly pro-Sunni and against other Islamic opinions... either he has gotten a lot better or people have gotten a lot worse around him. One FFI forum user talks about linking on as many subpages as possible so as to increase their google ranking... Any clash fans? You know the gruff voice on Red Angel Dragnet... well, I think he makes a really good point. This was just... horrible... "Ali decided it isn't a good idea to discuss FFI.org's plans for wikipedia in public and removed it." -- Nickbee below asks would we make FFI involvement a litmus test... and, no.. that is not a good idea in itself, but if it becomes apparent that users are part of what more or less seems like a vandalism project than banning should become more liberal. gren

It's the known vandal user Enviroknot and his sockpuppet Existentializer.

Whoever is tryig to delete this, please do not do that. Open and free conversation is always better than trying to suppress and censor. It is impossible to censor at wiki because all the old versions are around and can be seen by any one. Zora, I do not beleive for one second that the conspiracy of Ali Sina has a chance in hell. I looked at the posts. Qassim post has been around for 2 whole days and it attracted 4 views in total. Does not look like that the readership over there gave a whole lot of interest and wanted to jump on any bandwagon. Just look at the news today and you find a talk radio host opining on Islam, five egyptians arrested with NYC maps on them , A muslim in london questioning the myth of the moderate muslim in a UK newspaper , another Oriana Fallaci outburst against Islam, and many other such news and opinions floating on the net. These are not all manufactured by FFI and its subscribers. The guy in london says: "But there are Muslims who, at great risks to themselves, unapologetically condemn the culture of violence Muslims have bred for extremists among them to exploit. They work alone, or in small groups of like-minded Muslims, despite being maligned and ostracized by fellow Muslims, to dissect and expose Muslim extremism to the world at large while striving against immense difficulties to keep faith in the ideals of Islam. Their effort, irrespective of any effect in advancing Muslim reformation, remains real, while "moderate" Muslims being nowhere to be found confirm their existence is a myth until proven otherwise.". That is the voice of a secular muslim, or an ex-muslim depending upon how you look at it. Go spend some time at FFI; it is not that far off from this guy in london is saying. FFI does say it gratingly and not as palatably as the abouve quote. These reflect the sign of our times and the opinions of real people. Misplaced Pages cannot but help be part of the milleu of the Western world. Farhansher is not outside it. He is part of the dialog. If the opinions of the people shifts too much against "Islam" (or a particular variety of it as Gren would say) then it will be reflected by the people coming to Misplaced Pages as well. The solution is not to suppress. You forcefully eliminated any link to FFI because it is a hate site or because it is asking for special attention, etc. Please go back and look, how many times I, personally, asked for a dialog so that the information at the links of FFI can be provided so another important variety of Islam can be brought to the readership of Misplaced Pages. Frankly, I do find myself scratching my head at Farhansher's definition of Jihad. I hope holy war is included in the definition of Jihad somewhere; else I need to go back and tell the retired justice of Saudi Arabia who has a write up on Jihad a thing or two.Nickbee 02:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

The problem is ABC is no source for Islamic information and just because people are scared of terrorism means nothing. This is not theological or critical social science work and neither is Ali Sina. That's the problem. We don't linke to Edip Yuksel and we don't link to Ali Sina, there are too many two-bit hacks to link to them all. We are trying to be an encyclopedia and we surely have no exhausted scholarly sources that we must quote Edip Yuksel, Ali Sina, and ABC as sources of information on Islam. gren 03:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand why we have to put up with this. Misplaced Pages clearly has a policy to remove Personal Attacks. Farhansher's accusing any number of editors of being part of a "mass conspiracy" clearly qualifies. Will someone explain why this section has to remain?Ni-ju-Ichi 03:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

There is no personal attack in what he has said. While I would not use his writing style he only complains about editting styles he doesn't like and mentions that the FFI forums seem to be sending users here. That is perfectly reasonable and deleting it is vandalism. A personal attack is more along hte lines of rv islamofascist mohammedfucks who beat their wives and daughters like good islamofascist mohammedfucks this includes you chantingfuck gren 03:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I find this Ali Sina "conspiracy" to be very intriguiging. So much so that I have started my own "conspiracy": SIIEG (pronounced "siege"), the Secular Islamic Information Editors' Guild. Please join! --Zeno of Elea 03:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Gren, ABC is not a source for Islamic Information, and I never intended to give it as one. I wanted to show that we live in an environment, in a time, where certain aspects of Islam are being highlighted and I tried giving different sources to demonstrate. The vandalism by those who are unable to participate in a dialog is also clear. The point is that an Encyclopedia needs to give unbiased information to all sides. It cannot and must not ignore one side merely because it is not comfortable. When the secualr muslim is writing in a London newspaper and saying that there are no "moderate" muslims, why cannot we accept that there is a view of islam that is being put forward by the secualr muslims and ex-muslims. What is that view? Why do we have to hide it? Why cannot we acknowledge it? You cannot dismiss the secular muslims, the ex-muslims as two bit nobodies. I have never suggested quoting Ali Sina or using him as an authority. He has a directory of links and a directory of books that are useful sources. Do you consider Taslima Nasrin as a two bit hack as well? How about Salman Rushdie? Nickbee 04:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Taslima Nasrin wrote Lajja no? She has notability as an author and so does Rushdie. It is far more questionable in the field of religious studies. Links and books linking to a highly POV site is introducing POV. We have removed Islamic sites from the Islam links and have put directories and encyclopedic ones in its place. Only in the arts, sciences & philosophy do we have sites with Islamic affiliations. There is no point in revisiting that argument. Islam is a religion with a theology... Muslims are different matter. While Muslims are obviously relevant to Islam a Muslim claiming there are no moderates is not exactly a sociological study of this issue. I do accept there is a view but what does that mean? gren 04:17, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you at least acknowledging that there is a view that represents secular muslims and ex-muslims. Now to the question, what it is: Why not let them speak for themselves? Have you visited Taslima's site? You tell me what would be a good way to include their view on Islam? You think keep ignoring them is the way to go? As the writer from london says that they are opposed by muslims, and hence lable them as Kaffirs and exclude them from islam? Is that the way to go? It is not tit for tat, excluded islamic sites and hence no contra islamic sites are to be included. That is not logic at all. That is mere stubborness. Nickbee 04:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Nickbee, no matter how many times we tell you, it doesn't seem to penetrate. We don't link to pro- or anti-Islam sites directly, because the links were growing unmanageably. We link to the directories. Anyone who wants to find out more about Islam from the pro point of view has to click on the directory link. Anyone who wants to find out more about the antis can click on that link. Your favorite site doesn't get special treatment. This is not censorship. It is even-handed-ness. Zora 05:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Nickbee, you might want to read Talk:Islam/External_links --Zeno of Elea 05:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Zora, please please try to listen. I hear you but I do not think you are listening. The directories you link to do not give links to views Contra to Islam at all. As Zeno stated it puts some of the contra sites 4 clicks away. It is not an issue of "even-handed-ness", it is not a question of favorite site. It is a matter that there is a strong POV of Islam that is dumbfounded by reading on Misplaced Pages Islam's page that Jihad means "striving to win God's approval" (please read ex-muslims comments; although I do not agree with his over the top sarcasm) or excluding mention of "holy war" for instance. The DMOZ directory can hardly be called "anti-islam". Again, FFI is not my favorite site. Please look at yourself; you guys are behaving so clubby and unwilling to listen to any "outsider". I was charged as a sock puppet and blocked. Apparently so were the others. You are now convinced that I am from FFI. I have told you before and I tell you again, you do not like FFI, fine but what about the 70 odd links in the directory at FFI. Where should we put them so they can be linked? You dismiss FFI as a hate site and do not want to link to it. But look at the news, listen to the leaders around you, listen to the people around you, and they are saying things about Islam that you do not want to even link to let alone suggest that they exist. Please read the link to the Muslim who wrote in the london press. What kind of Islam is he talking about? Why does Wiki's page on Islam pretend that that aspect of Islam does not exist? You are pretending that secular muslims like ibn Warraq do not exist. This is what ibn Warraq says: "The jihad that the Western world faces today is identical in its motivations and goals to that which Europe managed to stave off almost a thousand years ago ­ thanks in large part to the Crusades of which the West is now ashamed. In this book, Robert Spencer tells the truth that few in the U.S. or Europe wish to face. Today's jihad, as Spencer illustrates here, is proceeding on two fronts: one of violence and terror, and another of cultural shaming and the rewriting of history. Here is a devastating riposte to that revisionism -- and a clarion call for the defense of the West, before it is too late." -- Ibn Warraq, author of Why I Am Not A Muslim and editor of Leaving Islam and What the Koran Really Says. On the christianity page, there is a link to Russels, "Why I am not a christian", but on the Islam page your club is bending over backwards to avoid stating the known criticism of Islam. Not one word from Warraq's "What the koran really says"!! How come? Please think carefully and listen to what I am saying. Have you read Warraq's "What the koran really says"? Nickbee 05:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Yes, I've read that book. I actually have FOUR of Ibn Warraq's books. He reprints some useful material. He'd probably despise me too, since I'm "religious", and he can't see anything good in that, but he's intelligent, readable, and often insightful.

Y'know, we were just starting to discuss the section on contemporary Islam, which many of the regular editors agreed sounded like feeble apologetics. That's the place to mention violent jihad, terrorism, and all the other hot-button topics. But as long as we're busy fending off the talk-page blanking and ranting FFI crowd, we're not getting any actual work done.

If and when I have time, I will try to write a trial version of that section and post it on the talk page for comment. That is, if the talk page hasn't been blocked to prevent attacks. Zora 05:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Excellent. So do I. I am not religious as well. But I do not despise you in the least because of it. Do you understand what "cultural shaming and the rewriting of history" Warraq might be talking about? Page-blanking and ranting crowd are self defeating idiots from which ever site they are from. I have now spent some time at FFI over the last few weeks, and I assure you that they have their share of nuts as well. Anonymity does seem to bring out the flamer in many a young hot blooded kids for some reason. Where will the section on Contemprary Islam go? Please let me know if I can be of any help in putting it together. Please, please do think about the "anti-islam" links on the main page and take a little time to look at the DMOZ list and see how inadequate it is to represent the secular islam's POV.Nickbee 06:14, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

DMOZ links everything four clicks away, which is even handedness for Dawah and for Ex-Muslims. I think the Contemporary Islam section is important because we cannot and would not deny that much violence is done in the name of Islam. Contemporary Islam is very interesting because you have the progressive movements and then very conservative movements and innumerable groups in between. I understand the cultural shaming and rewriting he is talking about. We are not here to say "Jihad means spiritual struggle" we are here to say that Muslims believe that... and others believe the concept to be more violent. I'm not Muslim so neither view is 'right' to me.. but both need to be mentioned in an NPOV way. I don't think the page pretends the bad doesn't exist... but, to some Muslims it is not what Islam is about and we are not here to say that they are wrong. gren 06:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Everything on the net is only six clicks away, so 4 clicks is a long long way. The question is why would wiki "intentionally" put something 4 clicks away for some and not for others. I agree that we should not take sides one way or the other and simply report showing what Islam is according to the various varieties of muslims. I propose we are not doing that but are being apologetic to some and suppressing others. The page DOES pretend that bad does not exist and the secular Muslims are not muslims. Their efforts to reform Islam and modernise Islam are simply ignored as "Islamophobia". At least that is what the page reads to many that I have shown the page.NickbeeNickbee 16:02, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

the poll

ok, so now we know all these anons doing nothing but add the ffi link are not sockpuppets, but editors-by-proxy coordinated via the ffi forum. Guys, you are in good company. the Neo-Nazis tried a very similar stunt some time ago, to "remove pro-jewish bias". Guess what, wikipedia hasn't turned into an antisemitic hate site. Strangely, decent good faith editors are not known to have resorted to such tactics. So what we'll do now to put an end to this is a poll. See Misplaced Pages:Voting. The poll shall be open for ten days, and close on 6 August, 7:00 UTC.

dab (ᛏ) 06:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Please keep comments short with no sub-comments

faithfreedom.org

do you think the Islam article in "external links" should link to http://faithfreedom.org/ http://faithfreedom.org/links.htm ?

yes

1. Zeno of Elea 10:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC) - i don't agree with linking to the FFI mainpage, but I think http://www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm should be considered for inclusion, possibly replacing "DMOZ Contra Islam" as discussed at Talk:Islam/External links#Replace dmoz with FFI list?
2. Karl Meier 11:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC) -- I don't support a link to the FFIs mainpage eighter, but after reading the discussion, I think that replacing the 'DMOZ Contra Islam' external link with an external link to FFIs collection of opposing websites would indeed be a good idea.
3. Ni-ju-Ichi 12:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC) Contrary to what some crazies around here think, I still don't think that there is any sort of a "conspiracy" going on. I think the FaithFreedom links (especially link collection page) deserve consideration.
4. Existentializer 15:03, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
5. Nickbee 16:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee - Wiki should not link to the main page of FFI. Someone should figure out a way to get the links of the links and library pages of FFI link onto a neutral site and link to that. Providing a direct link to links considered Anti-Islam by a site like FFI is important to provide a balance view.
6. Cunado19 17:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC) - Christianity has a sub-title under links of one anti-christian site. Baha'i Faith has an entire section on criticism. Opposition to Mormonism exists. one link won't hurt here.
7. Exmuslim 17:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim A link to FFI links page will enhance Wiki's credibility. Link to FFI main page would be inappropriate.
8. R. S. Shaw 19:59, 27 July 2005 (UTC) Yes, to the links page. Should keep DMOZ contra link as well.
9. Barneygumble 23:26, 27 July 2005 (UTC) A link is fine. There is a link to something critical of Christianity on that page.
10. Urchid Yes indeed , it goes without saying that all POVs should be represented in Misplaced Pages 04:17, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
11. malathion 01:45, 29 July 2005 (UTC) per Zeno.
12. Wynler 03:14:28, 2005-07-29 (UTC) New user, But after reading over the arguments I think that the link should be changed from DMOZ to FFI. FFI has a more comprehensive list. However, I would also like to see a note next to it saying that it is a not a NPOV link site.

no

1. dab (ᛏ) — I could accept a link to the ffi links page, in addition to dmoz (which I consider superior). if that option reaches a simple majority I think this would be the way to go.
2. gren 07:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
3. Heraclius 14:44, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
4. Siegerz 15:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

   Only three edits before this vote; first edit 16:28, 27 July 2005

   painfully obvious sock as well. please don't do that, people. dab (ᛏ)

5. one click to FFI??...fairness?? Farhansher 21:36, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
6. Saduj al-Dahij 22:29, 27 July 2005 (UTC) How dare anyone suggest that link to an abhorrent site about the sin of leaving Islam be included on the page about Islam. We should include a link to instead. Next you will be suggesting to include such intolerant sites as this

   Only fifteen or so edits before this; first edit 14:04, 27 July 2005

   and probably a satirical role account... dab (ᛏ)

   Why did you cross my name out? This slur against Islam must not stand. Dab is obviously islamophobicSaduj al-Dahij 14:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

7. Zora 05:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
8. Misplaced Pages isn't a link farm; links are often useful, but this seems to be PoV-motivated, as a way of getting round Misplaced Pages's NPoV rules. (That has nothing to do with the PoV reasons given by some editors above.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:33, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
9. Darwinek 13:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
10. ~~~~ 20:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

abstain

1. --GNU4Eva 20:03, 27 July 2005 (UTC) unsure yet....
2. - Why does it have to be this site? Surely there are better sites, critical of islam, out there which are less vitriolic? --Irishpunktom\ 23:36, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Ali Sina

do you think the Islam article in "see also" should link to Ali Sina ?

yes

1. Urchid Yes indeed , it goes without saying that all POVs should be represented in Misplaced Pages 04:17, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
2. Barneygumble 04:19, 28 July 2005 (UTC) The Roman_Catholicism page is just brimming with criticism. What's good for the goose is good for the gander
3. I don't really see why not. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:44, 28 July 2005 (UTC) (vote changed after discussion --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC))

no

1. gren 07:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC) - there are many more notable and more respected critics
2. Heraclius 14:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC) - Agree with gren. There are more notable and much more convincing critics.
3. Cunado19 16:44, 27 July 2005 (UTC) - If he's included then every Muslim or ex-Muslim with a wiki page should also be there.
4. Exmuslim 17:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim - Singling out Ali Sina this way makes no sense. No. I agree with dab's option.
5. Saduj al-Dahij 20:40, 27 July 2005 (UTC) - No, he is intolerant and offensive towards Muslims.

   Only fifteen or so edits before this; first edit 14:04, 27 July 2005

6. Farhansher 21:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
7. He's Just another in a Long list of Muslim Haters, I don't see why he would warrant a "See also" when other folks of the same opinions, like Nick Griffin, do not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irishpunktom (talk • contribs) 00:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

   No.--Irishpunktom\ 23:31, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

8. No. He's notable only to a certain excitable clique. Zora 05:51, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
9. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
10. R. S. Shaw 20:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC). My vote was erased by this edit

abstain

1. possibly, in an organized "see also" under "critics" or "apostates". this is a Misplaced Pages article after all, and may achieve npov dab (ᛏ)
2. Zeno of Elea 10:51, 27 July 2005 (UTC) - I agree with dab.
3. Ni-ju-Ichi 12:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC) Agree with Dab as well for this, the article needs a section for those.
4. Nickbee 16:16, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee Ali Sina is not that a prominant figure of Islam to warrant a direct mention under Islam itself. Perhaps under critics or apostates as suggested by dab.

Polls are evil

1. Don't vote on everything -- Cyrius|✎ 01:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

____________

In order to speed things up, I have decided to withdraw my objections to the poll and have reverted the talk page to before the dispute began. --Zeno of Elea 10:53, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

thank you kindly. dab (ᛏ) 10:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

the poll (discussion)

Please keep the voting area clean, to discuss something do it below gren 07:01, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

well, once we have a "critics" section in see also, and we are swamped with links to notable and respected critics, we can still unlink Sina. At the moment, it is true that there are not too many critics mentioned. Sina is rather a parody of a critic, and his smearing probably does Islam more good than harm, since I doubt he makes an impression on anyone not already violently anti-Islamic. Anyway, bring on the links to more notable critics. dab (ᛏ) 07:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I will need to research better into this... but Ibn Warraq is an all around critic of Islam that has general amounts of respect. What I think is typically more notable are people like Kassim Ahmad and those mentioned at Hadith#Western_academic_views_of_hadith are critics. Christoph Luxenberg is a linguist who critical of modern interpretation. It's hard to find critics of Islam as a whole that are notable and respected in scholarly communities. People who do blanket criticisms tend to be entities like Ali Sina whom many call bigotted and has little more than a small online following. I think it is important to mention Muslim scholars like Fazlur Rahman who was highly respected but in Islam and Modernity goes through a critique of many Islamic institutions throughout history. I have been called POV for it but I think it's true that very few people have become notable as a scholarly source by blanket criticism of a religion. gren 07:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I have never read anything written by either Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina. But I do know that Ibn Warraq studied under the famous scholar of Islam, Montgomery Watt whose works I have read. I suspect that Ibn Warraq, like Montgommery Watt, is in a higher literary class than your usual person. So Ali Sina probably does not measure up to Ibn Warraq. But I would like to see some examples of what is so objectionable about Ali Sina's writing. --Zeno of Elea 11:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

hm, what about "these women think they are 96% vagina"? Really, this guy is so little to the credit of critics of Islam that I wonder people want to add him at all. I am all for doing a decent section on criticism of Islam, but keep it sober and academic. Unfortunately, being beleagured by pov pushers from both sides, this is not too easy to do here, but we'll get there. Ibn Warraq would be a good start. dab (ᛏ) 11:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

This is the second time you have brought up the 96% vagina and so I took the time to go actually track down what is it that Ali Sina actually said about it. Here it is :

Muslim women are awra. They are objects of shame.

" "Ali reported the Prophet saying: 'Women have ten ('awrat). When she gets married, the husband covers one, and when she dies the grave covers the ten." Awra is pudendum, something to be ashamed of, something to hide. Pudendum is female's external sex organ. That is what Muslim women are according to Muhammad.

When I see a normal woman, I see a human being. When I see a Muslim woman, all I see is a big genital walking. She acts as if her entire body is a vagina that has to be hidden, protected, because it is an object of shame and embarrassment. How can you be proud of this image that you portray to the world? "

He is quoting a hadiath, a statement by the son in law of Muhammad. Keep in mind that this is cultral where men are supposed to eternal erections in heaven and women are ten female genitalia. I have not taken the trouble to find whether is qoute of the hadiath is accurate or not, but I would bet that it is. So you see it is not he who is saying that women should be covered from head to toe in body bag, but he is putting it in context for a muslim that he is communicating, trying to get through the cultral assumptions with shock value. What do you think of women under the Taliban rule where if the cultral police could see a woman's ankle under that "Burqha" or body bag when he knelt or laid down to examine if she was properly covered, she could be in for a severe beating for "exhibitionism"? How would you explain such absurd and obsessive behavior? What do you think when you see women covered in "body bags" hiding in the shadows? So I do not have a problem with Ali Sina's statement of 96% vagina in the context that he is making. What is that you are objecting to? He is talking to his constituency, in the language that he thinks is most effective. He seems to be on the side of liberating women and getting muslim women into the modern era, and not trying to keep them enslaved and covered in body bags. Please tell me if I am missing something here? Nickbee 17:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

I know this is the context. If he would make his point decently, maybe he would be a respectable ex-Muslim. Since he makes his point venomously, polemically, insincerely and slanderously, he does not seem to qualitfy as a respectable ex-Muslim. I am not saying Islam cannot be seriously criticized. Hell, yes, it can. I am just saying Sina cuts a pathetic figure as a critic, the equivalent of a Misplaced Pages teenage single-topic point-pusher. dab (ᛏ) 19:20, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I am glad that the link to the ffi main page seems to be out of the picture, that was what started the whole mess, after all. If there is a simple majority favouring the addition of the ffi links page, I'll be happy to add it. I am considering moving my vote to abstain as a gesture of good faith, since the ffi links page isn't so much worse than the dmoz one after all. dab (ᛏ) 19:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

All the links on the FFI links page could be submitted to DMOZ. Also, this al-Dauji user, or whatever he calls himself, is clearly not a real Muslim, but a malicious parody. All votes from this user should be disregarded as not sincere. Zora 06:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

No dab, the FFI link is much worse. When we submit a link we should be asserting that it has relative encyclopedic value. The FFI page links to some reasonable articles and Islamic sources but the problem is it's part of his page and links to his page. Our adding his page to wikipedia is an assertion of his legitimacy not just of what he links to. It comes with his commentary on the links, his advertisements, and blogs that he has chosen. The least part of the problem is the links themselves its their context that is unnacceptable. I agree with Zora that the stuff should be submitted to the DMOZ if it is not already. gren 07:01, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

yes, but the dmoz isn't much better. Anyone can have their site listed there, and get to describe it in their own words. I don't think there is much redaction at dmoz, not unless the descriptions contain profanity. Anyway, my vote stays no, for now, and I will only support adding the ffi links link if there is a majority of (non-sock) editors supporting it. dab (ᛏ) 07:33, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not sure about some of the yes votes. Surely there can be an Opposition to Islam article, and we could link it from the see also, plus, the ffi link would be much less controversial there. Yes, if there is Opposition to Mormonism, there can also be Opposition to Islam, no question about that. But note that this is not the Opposition to Islam article. Sure, all povs belong on WP, but not all websites, WP is not a linkfarm. I am not objecting to the link because it is critical of Islam. I am objecting because it is too vitriolic and unacademic. This Sina is really too wound up in his hate and frustration to know his ass from his elbow, let alone criticism from slander. Maybe if we had a good, decent "Criticism" section, we wouldn't need to argue over such things, and I wouldn't need to be called names by our esteemed Islamophobic editors for objecting to this particular link.

what does it tell us that we have so many outspoken critics of Islam, going to the point of obstruction to have their way with the ffi link, while none of them has seen it worth their time to compile a decent Opposition to Islam article? What does that tell us about their dedication to the Misplaced Pages project, or their notion of encyclopedicity. You want your views represented? Write articles about them, don't troll existing articles of marginal relevance. Once you have finished your critical articles, ask for links to them here. dab (ᛏ) 07:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Completely agreed, Islam is not defined by objection to it, scholarly criticism is important because it keeps in check outrageuous claims of any religion but those who define and dislike Islam have no part in Islam. There is opposition to Islam but this is not Islam. It should be noted because it does exist but it must be put in its place. Some editors fail to make this distinction which is quite a shame in my opinion and a hinderance to a properly encyclopedic source. gren 08:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

re, goose and gander, there is one link under "Criticism" on Christianity, an essay by Nobel laureate Bertrand Russell. If we restrict the Criticism links to Nobel prize winners here also, I would have no objections whatsoever. Oh wait, then we wouldn't have any links at all. Well, at least we should restrict links to essays of quality and decency at least remotely approaching Russell's. dab (ᛏ) 08:06, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Completely agree with dab. Criticism from high quality sources should be assumed. On another page I just deleted a criticism link that went to a chat-forum. And a page of Opposition to Islam linked under "see also" seems completely appropriate and would solve much of this nonsense. Cunado19 17:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Dab, your criticism of Ali Sina is a little warped. You do not disagree with his stands but you disagree with his "presentation" to his audience? He is talking to muslims in general, and in particular those who hate the west. So he discusses things in a way that might be addressing their fears and their icons, and not trying to be manipulative by trying to be friendly, sweet and sugary. Because he does not address himself to "your" academic standards, he is not a fit spokesperson for the entire secular muslim community? You certainly have a definite view of what is appropriate in this world, and little room for doubts? I have searched and I did not find a call to murder, violence, bomb, destroy, kill, maime, segregate, etc. by Ali Sina. By your criteria, Muhammed whose Islam this page is covering, should not be covered because he is one who said the women are 10 "awrat", now low class can you get? How do you tell the followers of a prophet who was not pleased with some because they were not beheading the vanquished kaffirs with enthusiasm, about the facts of their prophets life, as he sees them? Especially if you took a life time to shake that belief yourself? I think your objections to FFI being "low class" are your own bias and hangup. It is not your POV but the POV of exmuslims and secular muslims that needs to placed on the Islam page. Again I do not care whether you link to FFI or not; as I stated figure out a way to link to the list of links given by FFI for anit-islam or list of links provided by Spencer to 'anti-islam' sites. I do find it amazing that a significant fraction of those who call themselves muslims (and gren look at the YouGov survey by Anthony King that Exmuslim cited) support a mass muderer Osama, and support terrorism, and a site that opposes them and questions their ideology is the site you find objectionable because it does not meet your literary criteria? Nickbee 18:19, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Gren, the issue is not whether "YOU" find ffi encyclopediac standard or not. The issue is that ex-muslims and secualr muslims is a movement within Islam that finds it hard to be in the open because of the harsh "death penalties" imposed upon those who attempt to question Islam from within the muslim community. You necessarily end up with few "weird" souls who are willing to risk their lives. That is why Ibn Warraq identity is not known. That is why Dr. Yusuf Sheik did not voice his apostacy while on death row in Pakistan for 3 years. That is why Ali Sina is anonymous. So you tell how should this encyclopedia reflect that and provide a voice to that segment or variety of Islam on the Islam page? It is obvious that the muslim editors will oppose providing a voice to the secular muslims. At the moment, whether we like it or not, the ex-muslims and the secular muslims voice is clearest at FFI. Go ahead give me a reason why do you call it a hate site. Dab does not like it because it is "low class". It obviously does not have the "blue blooded accent" of academicians. What is your objection? Has FFI backed violence, segregation, nuking, etc.? A congressman of USA just recently suggested that mecca should be nuked. Does that mean wikipedia should not link to the US congress? What is it that you find so overwhelmingly objectionable to FFI? Remember we are here to report and not take sides and judge. We report what is Islam and not what we want it to be or what its supporters want it to be. I do not like FFI but I am not willing to support squelching the voices of the ex-muslims and the secular muslims. Nickbee 18:39, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee.

Is this poll fair? I was called a sock puppet and blocked from editing, and I had to actively pursue getting unblocked. I notice Qasim666, an ex-muslim, was also blocked and he was not a sock puppet. He could have been a contributor on "Islam" had he been given an oppertunity. Similarly, I notice that A kaffir, and Billal were blocked after having been charged as sock puppets. I have no clue whether they tried and were unable to gain a voice here or not. But anyone who attempted to support FFI links was automatically considered a sock puppet. The bias is clear. So perhaps before this poll concludes, we should clear up the bias against FFI, a mediocre site at best. We do not have to like FFI to recognize it as a legitimate site of secular muslims and ex-muslims. What are the criteria by which Misplaced Pages decides the worthiness of a site? FFI is not porn site. It does not support mass murder. It does not support Al-Qaeda and its mass murder ideology. Where are the rules according to which we are to judge the worthiness of FFI as site? Nickbee 18:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

Why is my vote crossed out by you, DAB? Exmuslim 22:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim Not much of a chance to contribute so far. I tried engaging but no one cared to answer under NPOV. SlimVirgin wrapped my knuckles for unacceptable language. Now my vote does not count? Real open system, I say. Looks very familiar .... Islamic democracy? Exmuslim 22:54, 28 July 2005 (UTC)Exmuslim

dab, if Misplaced Pages is not a "link farm" (as you claim) and if the Islam article is not an appropriate places for a link to a directory of websites that are critical of Islam, then why do we link to the DMOZ Islam direoctyr, which lists every manner of apologetic Islamic websites? Let's be clear here - this is not a debate over whether or not to include a list of websites that are critical of Islam, this is a debate over WHICH list or lists to include. If it were a debate over the very existance of a link to a critical website directory, then you should have made your poll about whether or not to delete ALL links to ALL website directories. Instead you SEEM to be advocating merely deleting all links to all directories of websites that are critical of Islam (a clear double standard). --Zeno of Elea 01:30, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Notable Ex-Muslims

As there is a marked tendency of ex-Muslims to be opposed to Islam (much greater than the tendency of those who convert between Christian faiths or away from other faiths) a section of notable ex-Muslims might be in order.

How about we start a list of names who may or may not be worthy of being on the list?
Ali Sina
Walid Shoebat
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Feel free to add more as they come to mind.Existentializer 16:43, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Ibn Warraq
Anwar Sheik
Dr. Yusuf Sheikh
Salman Rushdie
Taslima Nasrin
Irfan Khawaja

Nickbee 17:19, 27 July 2005 (UTC)Nickbee

There is that awful lesbian writer, Irshad Manji, who says many mean things about the beauty that is Islam. She should not be allowed to write because she is intolerant and offensive. Saduj al-Dahij 19:59, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes and lets not forget that blood thirsty butcher of women and children and child molester Muhammad while you are at it Saduj .

Saduj al-Dahij, I'm not sure if you're being serious or satiricial. It's difficult to tell. In any case, Irshad Manji is not an ex-Muslim, she still claims to be a believer. --Zeno of Elea 00:59, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Zeno, I don't say this often, but after reading this guy's user page he's just a nutcase.Ni-ju-Ichi 01:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

How about we start a section on notable Muslims, which would include thousands of people. Or how about we don't try to put as much slander as possible on this page. Make Ex-Muslims if you feel the need. Cunado19 17:26, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I have a solution. The page Apostasy in Islam could use a list of notable ex-Muslims.Heraclius 17:28, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

You can start a section on notable muslims if you wish too... be sure to include all the terrorists though. Can't leave off two-faced tin-pot dictators like Saddam Hussein or Moammar Gadhafi or Arafat either. Oh, and Heraclius, shut up. I have no truck with people like you who want to hide things that they don't like in articles that don't exist, just so that they can POV the hell out of existing articles.Existentializer 17:46, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, that article does exist.Heraclius 21:37, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

And I have just included it in the appropriate article. Thanks for your suggestions.Heraclius 21:55, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

let's do the Ex Muslims thing, and have Ex Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists while we're at it... What's good for the goose... --GNU4Eva 02:26, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Adding the terrorists and Saddam would be like going to Christianity and showcasing the Dominican Order, which "saved" Spain through the torture and murder of millions. Or the masterminds of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, led by the Catholic church. Or even better, the multitude of "heroes" who orchestrated the Siege of Jerusalem (1099) which left not a single person alive, man, woman, child, Jew, Muslim or Christian. Not recent enough? How about Adolf Hitler or the Ku Klux Klan?

Still think there's a trend in Islam that's not in Christianity? If you feel the need to exact justice, go put all these on the Christianity page, which right now is lacking in negativity. Or is your justice only applied to religions you don't like?

• How I Became An Ex-Christian
• List of ex-Christian web sites
• list of ex-Christian stories
• more testimonies of ex-Christians

Don't take my comments as negative to Christianity, which is a religion I love. Just using it to make a point. Cunado19 16:48, 28 July 2005 (UTC)