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March 22

Cult Definition

Why isn't Christ and his disciples considered a cult?

Max Weinreich famously said (on the difference between a dialect and a language) that "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy". I think the same is true for cults versus religions. I'm sure that after 1000 years of recruiting the cult of Xenu will seem as respectable as the cult of the zombie that's given me the day off today. --Sean

A famous saying goes, "The difference between a cult and a church is how many members it has." -- Kesh (talk) 00:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, one could define cult a little narrower, to not mean so much "unpopular/fringe religious sect" but rather religious sects that require extremely high degrees of investment (cut of all ties to your family, divert all resources to the group, pressured or coerced to conform to group expectations, not allowed to leave the group). I'm not sure if the original relationship between Christ and his disciplines would fit into such a definition, at least by the New Testament account—participation seems to me to have been pretty much voluntary, and if anything Christ was a little contemptuous of his disciples deciding to follow him around, if I recall correctly. Perhaps someone who has read the book of Matthew more recently than I (it has been about ten years for this agnostic) could share with us their perceptions on how well this definition fits or does not. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Christ was not at all contemptuous of being followed. He told many of his disciples personally: "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men". He asked them to follow him. Wrad (talk) 00:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I seem to recall—and it has been awhile—him occasionally making disparaging remarks about how irritatingly dense they were at times. There were some times he seemed positively pissy. But again, it's been awhile. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 03:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I once saw an episode of a well-respected TV quiz show where the question was something about which religion some famous person belonged to, and the answer was supposed to be "Christianity". The answer given by the contestant was "He was a Roman Catholic", which he was. To the contestant's anguish and the viewers' amazement, it was marked wrong, and the explanation was that the religion is considered to be Christianity, but Catholicism and all the other varieties of Christianity are considered separate cults of the overall religion, and they weren't asking about the person's cult but their religion. Not sure how many complaints they had about that one. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Muslims would say he was Muslim. Wrad (talk) 00:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Since Jesus went to synagogue, his group was probably a sect in those days, with teachers commonly being accompanied by followers. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

A functional definition of cult is not based on the success of a cult, but on information control, use of fear, emotional manipulation, isolation from outside influences, power structuring, etc. Any gestures towards such definitions are routinely reverted at Misplaced Pages, a symptom of cult information manipulation in itself. --Wetman (talk) 09:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Christianity was originally considered a cult (by the romans), and persecuted. See Christianity#Early_Church_and_Christological_Councils87.102.16.238 (talk) 12:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Moral philosophy of evolution

Is there a moral philosophy which posits evolution as the source and answer to ethics questions? If so how would this philosophy answer the following paradox? (Is there a name for this paradox btw?)

An old lady and the Mona Lisa (or some great work of art) are in a burning art museum. You have time to save only one. Which do you choose?

Thanks, --S.dedalus (talk) 05:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You could take a look at bioethicist Peter Singer especially this section to do with evolutionary biology. Singer is an evolutionary atheist by the way. Now I hope to push the little old lady out of the way of the crowd rushing towards the mOna Lisa. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

PS I like your conundrum about the two little old ladies. The value placed on either of these is fraught. JR

I can not speculate on the legislation in other countries, but in the EU you would be charged with "gross negligence leading to the death" of Ms X, if you were to have saved Ms Mona Lisa. I think the US term is "criminally negligent homicide". --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

In most places in the U.S., criminally negligent homicide wouldn't apply, as there is no legal duty to put your own life at risk to rescue others, and as neither Ms. Mona nor Ms. Biddy are in your care. - Nunh-huh 14:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Altruism is considered to be a mechanism which has affected evolution (or the other way round). Sorry if this is Weasel-speak, but I can´t find the reference I have stumbled across some weeks ago.

If my memory serves me right, these scientists (anthropologists ?) argued that altruistic behaviour may have been instrumental in the survival of tribe X whilst a less community oriented and selfish humanoid clan, tribe Y, may not have survived.

Maybe somebody else knows what hypothesis I am referring to ? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you are referring to group selection as the proposed mechanism of the evolution of altruism. - Nunh-huh 19:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd be very skeptical of any attempts to base a moral philosophy on some independent foundation, and in particular one from the natural sciences. There have been adherents of the theory of Social Darwinism who viewed this theory not as a descriptive, but as a prescriptive theory, legitimizing the elimination of "social misfits". I have no idea, though, how such people would have solved your conundrum.  --Lambiam 20:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You could also look at Porphyry (philosopher) arguably Springer's forbear. Julia Rossi (talk) 03:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an entire field known as evolutionary ethics. Unfortunately such attempts often fall into the naturalistic fallacy at best, and a projection onto nature at worst. Every ten years or so we have a totally different idea about what sorts of conclusions we should draw from our evolutionary lineage (were our predecessors more like the carnivorous chimpanzee, the noble gorilla, or the sex-crazed bonobo?), and science has, in my opinion, proven itself quite unsuited to the normative, or prescriptive, task when it comes to ethics. It tries to base it in nature, but nature doesn't boil down to simple answers or maxims—nobody looks more out-of-date than the ideas of a scientist who has proclaimed ten years previous that they understood how nature says human behavior should regulated. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 04:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Sdedalus for subjecting cleverly us to the false dilemma otherwise known as "the lesser of two weevils". Not the fastest bull in the arena, I learned a lot.  ; )Julia Rossi (talk) 07:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I would save the old lady, since I don't much like the mona lisa. What about everything else in the museum. surely it would be much better to just put the fire out?HS7 (talk) 20:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, evolutionary ethics is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! As for the “dilemma” I believe it’s actually intended to be a Value theory question. It considers the value of art over life, but in this context it is made more complicated by the fact that the woman is over the age of reproduction. (Sorry, that’s a pertinent factor when considering evolutionary value.) Thanks for the help folks, -S.dedalus (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Based on my limited understanding of his work, I think the "biological ethic" of Herbert Spencer might also apply. User:Jwrosenzweig, not logged in 03:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Burma, Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand: Indosphere or Sinosphere?

Our Indosphere article places those countries in that orbit. Is this clear cut?

Lotsofissues 06:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Countries often fall into numerous spheres of influence - some of the countries you mention also fall into a 'sino-sphere' of influence.87.102.16.238 (talk) 12:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

All four countries currently use a writing system derived from Indian alphabets (as opposed to Vietnam, which used a writing system based on Chinese characters before going over to the Latin alphabet in the late 19th-century). However, active ongoing cultural influence from India may not have been too significant in recent centuries... AnonMoos (talk) 20:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

These nations could be said to be the middle of the Indo-/Sinospheric Venn Diagram. Ninebucks (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Princess Anastasia

I saw a cartoon on tv yesterday about Anastasia. My mum says she thinks it was about a real russian princess. She dosent know any more. She says I should ask here. What happened to the real Anastasia. What happened to her family. Yours sincerely, Julia Mackenzie (aged 8)

The cartoon was probably Anastasia, which is based on stories told about Grand Duchess Anastasia, the daughter of the last reigning Tsar of Russia. The Tsar and all his family were killed in the Russian Revolution, but many people hoped that somehow Anastasia had survived, and many women later claimed to have been the long-lost Anastasia. Unfortunately, the stories were false, and the women, like Anna Anderson, Eugenia Smith, and Nadezhda Vasilyeva, were impostors: Anastasia had died in the Revolution with the rest of her family. -Nunh-huh 08:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

My great-aunt, who died not so long ago, happened to be a playmate of Anastasia when she was about the same age as Julia. Small world.John Z (talk) 09:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I've seen this film. It really is a very offensively revisionist piece of propaganda. The achievements of Leninist Russia are completely overlooked, and the Romanovs, some of the worst tyrants in history, are portrayed as fairy-tale characters. Ninebucks (talk) 15:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Does the Christian celebration of easter have its origins in the Hindu Bahagavad Gita ?

If so, what is the relationship?

Easter festival was originally a pagan festival - search for "easter pagan" for more details.

See eostre for more details.

I don't know if the link goes back further - do hindus have an 'easter festival'?87.102.16.238 (talk) 12:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

This page gives a little more info http://hindugenius.blogspot.com/2007/06/pagan-origin-of-easter-festival.html I can't find a direct link though.87.102.16.238 (talk) 13:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The answer is "no". And "Eostre" only gives the name of Easter in English -- the actual religious observance of Easter goes back to the Jewish passover (the word for Easter is usually a variant of "Pascha" in most European-derived language). AnonMoos (talk) 19:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Not the whole story. Nearly all Old World, northern hemispheric civilisations celebrated some kind of spring festival, as a pagan celebration of the annual rebirth. These ancient pagan celebrations were quite universal, having counterparts spreading from India to the Middle East to Northern Europe. After millenia, people start to make up bits of religion to superimpose over these ancient festivals - thus, Passover. The celebration of Easter within Western Christianity today is a synthesis of the purely Christian story of Jesus' death and rebirth (having, itself, Jewish roots), and pre-Christian spring-tide festivals throughout the Roman world. Christian Easter, Jewish Passover and Hindu Bahagavad Gita are all essentially divergent festivals from a much more ancient style of rebirth celebration. Ninebucks (talk) 15:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That's an opinion, but not necessarily the correct one. Unlike Christmas, where the date was fixed pretty much arbitrarily and probably to coincide with previous pagan festicals, Easter's date is tied to Passover. So to show that Easter is 'derived' from pagan festicals you have to show that Passover was. As for modern Easter practice (bunnies, eggs, chocolate) etc.) yes a lot of that is derived from Spring festivals. But none of those are that closely tied to the Christian festival of Easter. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Philosophers Wealth

How did the great philosophers throughout human history- Plato, Aristotle, Descartes- earn a living and become considerably wealthy ? Surely all they had to offer were opinions and ideas about the nature of the world and time, where is the money in that ?

Descartes inherited sufficient wealth that he never had to work for a living. I believe Plato and Aristotle were in the same boat. Algebraist 15:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

As to antiquity: A significant number were, in modern terms, teachers of patricians. Have a look at our article on Academia which has a section on Plato, Plato´s Academy and Ancient times. One of his students, Aristotle, later took on a pupil by the name of Alexander, who presumably paid hefty fees before embarking on a spot of empire-building.

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There are basically four ways to make money with philosophy: 1. already have it, 2. teach, 3. find a beneficent donor, 4. go to law school and become a lawyer! ;-) --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 18:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Some of them were poor homeless bums, like Diogenes. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Diogenes of Sinope, in (simplified and loaded) modern terms, was an anti-social anarchist drop out.

Societies, then and now, protect themselves from those who dare to question the dogma. The methods vary (legal prosecution / mental institutions / public ridicule et al).

Those who misunderstand the meaning of the much maligned term cynic may still wish to read it up. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Does that make professional philosophy a leisure pursuit? Looks like Socrates brought it down to earth a little without leaving his name to a syndrome. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Population

How can any organisation be even close when estimating the human population of this planet ? Surely as people are constantly dying and being born at only roughly equal rates, one can never be certain of the population. There must be no way of ever knowing how many of us there are, or if anybody's estimations are anywhere near the truth. Misplaced Pages states that on January 25th, 2006 the estimation was at 6.5 billion, but what is the margin of error ?

This website has information on methodology. Carom (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Population counting itself is not a unique statistical problem—statisticians have been dealing with exactly these sorts of issues since the dawn of statistics as a discipline (it was, at the name implies, the science of the state, that is, the science which tells you about the nation-state itself, about how many people are in it, who they are, how they are doing, etc.—what might today be more specifically called demography). In anything where you are tallying people you have to make certain assumptions about how reliable your models are, who you are missing, how much you can extrapolate from a small sample size.

The silliness comes in when places like the US Census make it look like their estimates are valid all the way down to the individual person. This is a display of false precision. I wish I could tell you the margin of error in such things but it is likely that the last four—and probably even more—digits given are just false precision, statistical junk that nobody has bothered to filter out. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Demography and population statistics are specialized fields. If you count all people in a given area during a certain period, say a single day (as is done in some countries when census is taken) the effect of the difference between the birth rate and the death rate will be small. If the annual growth rate is 1.18%, the growth rate per day is only 0.0032%. The main error is then in not counting people who are away (or possibly hiding) when the census taker comes. Given the growth rate, which usually will not suddenly change dramatically, such numbers can be projected to dates like January 1. By counting some parts more precisely, it can be estimated what the undercount is in general. Using standard statistical methods, the variance can be estimated, and can further be checked with differences between projected and counted results. When summing estimates of different areas to obtain a global estimate, just add up the respective variances as well. The main issue for global estimates is that problems such as civil war may make it impossible to take the census of some countries. Such disturbing aspects are much larger than uncertainties related to the constant going on of births and deaths.  --Lambiam 19:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Art Work

What is the difference between G/P and S/N on a Thomas Kinkade painting?

I can't find a GP. The prints listed for sale on the Thomas Kinkade website are marked "S/N' and "A/P". S/N stands for "Standard Number" which places it in the Kinkade inventory somewhere; it is also the number written on a brass plaque that accompanies the print. "A/P" stands for "artist's proof" which seems to mean, in this case only, that is is slightly larger than the rest of the print run and is basically just another shorter run of the same "S/N" print. The "A/P" costs more than the "S/N". Please note that Kinkade print runs tend to number in the thousands, and even if an "A/P" is a shorter run, it still may be longer by far than the full run of most other artists' numbered print. (I once attended at a framing lecture given by Kinsler where she said that any print run longer than 250 copies was not "limited" in any realistic sense." ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Stalin's father

I read that there may be some doubt over the exact parentage of Joseph Stalin, not shown in your article. Is any more known? Rigsby's Cat (talk)

Only the doubt that seems to spring up about the parentage of many famous figures.... AllenHansen (talk) 11:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

See Nikolai_Przhevalsky#Przhevalsky_and_Stalin; our article calls it an urban legend. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What do interest rate cuts have to do with inflation?

I'm trying to understand the US Economic policy, with its interest cuts and Economic Stimulus Package. I heard a few arguments on why interest cuts would increase inflation. Is this because more money will be able through credit? I thought the fed did a good job controlling inflation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legolas52 (talk • contribs)

This is an involved topic. Here are some articles for you to peruse to get an overview: money supply#Link with inflation, inflation#Controlling inflation, monetary policy. –Outriggr § 00:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Devils

How, and to what extent, does Dostoyevsky's novel reveal an understanding of the inner workings and philosophy of The People's Will? Yermolov (talk) 21:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean the Volonté generale? ... AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry. I mean Narodnaya Volya, a political movement in tsarist Russia. Yermolov (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there no answer? Yermolov (talk) 17:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

According to our article on The Possessed, another name for The Devils, the novel is from 1872, while the terrorist activities of Narodnaya Volya's seem to date from 1879 onwards only. So perhaps Dostoyevsky had a general intuition of the mindset of extremist revolutionaries of his day and age that also was valid for N.V. (Or, an interesting hypothesis, they may have been inspired by his novel.) However, I don't know anything about "the inner workings and philosophy" of N.V., and I'm not qualified to comment on the degree of similarity. You can read something of what a mixed bunch it was here.  --Lambiam 01:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

ebooks

Hi, im looking for books on 'how can i know/understand myself better', 'how to study people's behavior', 'how to deal/behave with people'..etc. Could anyone suggest me some good online library along with the titles of the books, where i can find my need. Thank you in advance.

For a starting point or guide, have you seen our list of Self-help books? Please sign your posts with four of these ~ to avoid confusion. Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 07:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC) Oops, fixed the link so you can try again, cheers. JR

Depression in students

In universities, are students majoring in arts more likely to have depression than those majoring in sciences? NeonMerlin 23:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Statistically, whether they are students or not, arts-persons are more likely to suffer from depression that science-persons. Wrad (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it is the other way round: depressed people tend more to like art than not depressed people. If the correlation is true at all, of course. Mr.K. (talk) 01:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This 2008 article in the New York Times science section about the work of neuroscientist Dr. Jack Pettigrew is worth a look. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice source, but this article is not from 2008, but 1999.WikiProteus (talk) 14:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

So it is, thanks, WikiProteus. I looked at the wrong header. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

March 23

About a photograph

I found this strange photo in a gallery with the name "Amazing photos throughout our history", and I was wondering - since it's been placed in such a category - if it has got some kind of story to go along. It seems to be a portrait of either a inbreed family or a freakshow. Any suggestion what it is?

Here it is: --Petteroes (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hard to say without any information as to who it is a photo of, where taken, and when taken. Could be a Photoshop project, could be a family some of whom have unusual appearance, could be a 19th century institution. Edison (talk) 18:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Judging by certain prominent anatomical features, these individuals exhibit several conditions resulting from developmental birth defects such as congenital hydrocephalus ("water on the brain;" the young woman fourth from the left) and microcephaly ("pinhead," the small person on the right). More recent medical advances such as treatment (shunts for hydrocephalus) and in-utero screening (for deformities of brain and central nervous system that might indicate reason to abort the affected fetus) have made these conditions uncommon today, but they certainly continue to occur. The subjects' wardrobe (about which I'm no expert) places them in the late 19th or early 20th C. I would suppose they are unrelated and were living in an institution for the feeble-minded, or similar term current at the time. Those similarly afflicted but less fortunate would possibly have been exploited for their "freakish" appearance and displayed in sideshows, well portrayed in Todd Browning's classic film, Freaks (1932). Author Robertson Davies offers a literary treatment of one such non-institutionalized mentally disabled individual in What's Bred in the Bone (1985). -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that picture is in this book Saudade7 07:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

...or one of the half-dozen other books with related titles Amazon.com suggests to those interested. Certainly argues towards the authenticity of such cases, and that this photo isn't a retouch job. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Huang Yong, Chinese serial killer

Hi friends, some users (or the same) are vandalizing this guy's article. What can we do? Maru-Spanish (talk) 02:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Try these guys, Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Task Force. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Do Jews believe in hell and the devil?

Do Jews believe in hell and the devil?

They believe in Sheol and Satan. AnonMoos (talk) 03:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

But nothing like Christian concepts of the two. See Jewish eschatology and this page on Judaism and HaSatan (the adversary). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Supply and demand in the labor market

For jobs paying minimal wages is clear that there is much more supply than demand. For jobs paying some hundred dollars/hour the contrary is the case.

But, how can we calculate all these cases in the middle?

If I know that a job pays $15/hours, how is the ratio of supply and demand?

Where is the point where there is as much supply as demand?

Mr.K. (talk) 03:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Your assumptions are not necessarily correct. In some places or times of high unemployment there can be more demand even for minimum wage jobs than there is supply. For some high paying jobs (doctors, for example, here in Canada) there is much more supply of jobs (i.e. demand for doctors) than there is demand. Other dangerous or difficult jobs can also be in plentiful supply, despite their high pay. You might be better thinking of pay rate as being a balencing factor between supply and demand; for example during the bursting of the dotcom bubble both demand for software workers and their pay rates went down. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

must religious stereotypes be bigotted???

religion MEANS its adherents will have certain ideas, so how is it bigotted on its face to attribute it to the members of that religion? It's just a question of true or false, isn't it, since either the adherents will or won't have the thoughts you ascribe to them.... can someone explain why religion should be treated as though it didn't involve BEING certain ways, as though it were just being a circumstnace of someone's birth?

It depends on whether the stereotype is hateful or not, and whether one is compressing a great deal of variance into a simple statement. It's one thing to talk about beliefs that are very widely held by groups, it's another to start ascribing other attributes to them. On the whole, it is not bigoted to say that Mormons are anti-gay, that Catholics are anti-abortion, and Jews and Muslims aren't supposed to eat pork. But in all of those there will be variance as well—it's not a question of true or false, some Catholics aren't anti-abortion, some Mormons aren't anti-homosexual, some Jews and Muslims doubtless think God has bigger things to worry about than their lunch. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 04:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Like his own lunch. How many calories a day does an omnipresent being need, anyway? It must be an awful lot. -88.109.94.132 (talk) 09:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Could God make a sandwich so big he wouldn't have room for dessert afterwards? Important theological question. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

What does "anti-homosexual" mean? The reason I ask is that mormons don't think that God hates guys, they just believe the lifestyle is morally wrong. Wrad (talk) 20:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

They're against people being homosexual. Claiming that something which is clearly a form of identity is a "lifestyle" and therefore suppressible is, I think, grounds to consider someone being against the thing itself. In any case, I don't think one has to believe that God Himself hates gays to be anti-homosexual. They are against people identifying as homosexual and acting in a homosexual manner. That's about all you need to be anti-homosexual, in my book. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 21:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

"They're against people being homosexual." That's absolutely correct. I just think that "anti-homosexual" is a bit ambiguous. There's a big difference between the "God hates fags lets go kill some" crowd and the "love the person not the act" crowd. Anyway, yes, you're right, Mormons are against the homosexual lifestyle, though they are not part of the decidely more extreme and hateful anti-gay crowd. Wrad (talk) 04:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Does that mean that as far as Mormons are concerned, it's ok to be homosexual in nature as long as you keep your sexual activities secret, you never tell anyone, and you never openly live as one? That may be a less extreme position than killing fags, but it still sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

No, we (speaking as a whole) don't consider it 'ok', lived secretly or openly, but it's a matter between the person and God, who'll deal with it in his own time, in his own way. We don't teach hatred against homosexuals. I have a homosexual realtive and a homosexual friend and I love them, but it doesn't mean that I agree with the choices they've made. There are restrictions, such as not partaking of the sacrament, going to the temple, or, for none members, being baptised, but those restrictions apply equaly to, say, adulterers. AllenHansen (talk) 08:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You speak of "the choices they've made" as if it's simply a matter of choice. I'd love to know why a person would willingly choose to expose themselves to the possibility of ridicule, hatred, vilification, discrimination, imprisonment, execution, religious persecution, religious restrictions, and murder. That's the attitudinal record against homosexuals down the ages, and much of it still goes on. Why would anyone ever choose to put their head into such a lion's mouth? Most straight males have a visceral reaction to the concept of 2 males having sex, which varies from mild displeasure to outright repulsion. So who are these people who go against their own nature to choose to enter into what they themselves consider to be repulsive sexual arrangements? What could possibly explain such utterly bizarre behaviour? Insanity? Extreme rebelliousness? And how does it go from being repulsive to being attractive, desirable and sexually arousing? Oh, I know, maybe they were always attracted to such things. Is that just barely possible? And wouldn't this mean they never chose this "lifestyle", just as they never chose to be left- or right-handed, never chose to be born in whatever country they were born in, never chose to be male or female, never chose to be short or tall, never chose to be a musical genius or tone-deaf, never chose to have parents who were Mormons, witches, Breatharians or whatever. I hope you see my point. The only choice homosexuals have is whether to acknowledge their nature and live their lives in accordance with it (not that it defines them or their life's purpose any more than being heterosexual does), or not. There are many reasons why many don't do so, and it's not hard to see why given the immense challenges they would often face. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You might ask why anyone would "choose" to become a Mormon and "expose themselves to the possibility of ridicule, hatred, vilification, discrimination, imprisonment, execution, religious persecution, religious restrictions, and murder." Yet millions choose it anyway all over the world. Why does anyone do anything hard? Wrad (talk) 21:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

We're not asking you to agree with the viewpoint, Jack, just saying that such a viewpoint exists. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't what I was saying, Jack. I was refering to deciding to live that lifestyle (for lack of a better term). That's my opinion and it doesn't make me hate or dislike them. I'm not downplaying the struggle or difficulties. I don't, however, see any reason to like homosexualism. I'm sure there are things that you yourself find repulsive. 192.117.101.209 (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

To Jack from his question way back: ::No. They believe it's wrong whether you hide it or not. They believe it's wrong to have that lifestyle in secret or in public. They believe it's a sin. I just wanted to make the clarification because, as a Kansan, I've had more than my share of Fred Phelps. He makes me sick. Wrad (talk) 21:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I just read that link. All I can say is YOIKES. I've never heard Phelpsian teachings in our church. 192.117.101.209 (talk) 21:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I just wanted to clarify that there is a big difference between Mormon anti-gay and Phelps anti-gay. Anyway, I'm starting to wish I'd never brought it up. It's starting to become a classic example of the problem originally posed. Religions can't say anything without being accused of being bigoted, when in my experience, non-religious folks can be just as bigoted. I've run into bigotry on both sides. Religion does not hold a monopoly on bigotry. Wrad (talk) 21:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I hope my remarks weren't interpreted as being in any way bigoted against religions, because that was certainly not my intention. I'm just trying to get my head around this question of "lifestyle". Is this simply another way of referring to sexual activity, or is there more involved? Let's take a married man who has occasional homosexual feelings, and has a single clandestine homosexual experience. I assume the disapproval would be on 2 grounds: (a) it's adultery, regardless of the gender of the sexual partner, and (b) any homosexual acts, in any circumstances, are frowned upon. If a man, whether he's married or single, does this on repeated occasions, does this mean he's practising a gay lifestyle? If a man takes it further and acquires a male sexual partner, or a series of them, is this the gay lifestyle you're referring to? Cheers. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Mormonism believes in strict chastity before marriage and complete fidelity after marriage. So, in mormonism, if you're engaging in sexual acts outside of marriage, then it's a sin. It doesn't matter if you're homosexual or heterosexual. Wrad (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That, I can understand and accept as a position. I just wonder why people don't say it as simply as that, rather than getting into the "lifestyle" language, which just seems to muddy the issue because people have different concepts of what "lifestyle" means. Thanks. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. This particular issue has a lot of muddy definitions that hurt both sides. Wrad (talk) 23:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Who is the earliest known person?

I've tried to locate the earliest historically known person, which I think should be some time in the 4th millennium BC or perhaps even earlier, prior to Sargon of Akkad of the Sumerians/Akkadians and Iry-Hor of the Egyptians. I've found many mythical names who supposedly existed before recorded history, but I'm looking for a real historical person. My guess is that it would be the name of a ruler, or perhaps a scribe who signed his (surviving) works. — Loadmaster (talk) 04:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Scorpion I? If the scorpion symbol associated with him is his name. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, we had an article on this topic but it got deleted due to lack of sources. — Kieff | Talk 05:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ötzi the Iceman? Not historically attested I suppose...but he was a real person. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well if you allow Ötzi, you'll have to allow Lucy.--Shantavira| 09:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

See also a related question from December 2006: "Who is the first recorded human by name?". ---Sluzzelin talk 10:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Mitochondrial Eve (140 kY ago), whilst not documented by her contemporaries, indubitably existed. Indeed, you may argue she still exists.

Y-chromosomal Adam, by comparision, is a spring chicken, aged 60 kY. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The list of Kings of Sumer extends back a long way. The lengths of reigns are obviously inaccurate, but according to the theory I first read, Enmerkar ruled at roughly the same time as the first known egyptian pharohs Tiu and the Scorpion, around 3050BC, but the lists here seems to suggest instead that Ngushur ruled at their time, which was apparently 3200BC. Names before that are increasingly unlikely to have been real people, but I doubt there's any point where we can say, 'none on the list before this king were real'. Or maybe there is no first person and all our history is circular. HS7 (talk) 20:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone says "Adam", "Chap One" preceeds him in most Bibles. --Dweller (talk) 20:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

does the California State Military Reserve allow gays

?

I don´t know if this is applicable to the question, but under the link http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ig/Pages/Homosexual.aspx the subsequent statements are made:

• Applicants for enlistment will not be asked nor be required to reveal their sexual orientation
• Applicants for enlistment will not be asked if they have engaged in homosexual conduct
• While on active duty, soldiers will not be asked about their sexual orientation or conduct unless there is credible information of homosexual conduct

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't ask, don't tell --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 22:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Date Of The New Moon Visible In Jerusalem Nearest The Spring Equinox 2008?

Please can someone help me with the date of the new moon visible in Jerusalem nearest the Spring equinox this year 2008? Grateful thanks.NZGail (talk) 07:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it should be April 7. See here for example. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless you use an optical aid; then it could be April 6. And are you sure the new moon preceding the equinox is not closer?  --Lambiam 01:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The council of Nicea formula was the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox, by the way... AnonMoos (talk) 11:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Where the vernal equinox is defined to be on the 21st of March – which is way off if you follow the Julian calendar.  --Lambiam 01:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Lord Jim and Imperialism

Could Conrad's novel Lord Jim stand as a metaphor for the late imperial experience? What does it reveal about the values and attitudes of Victorian England?Jessie George (talk) 08:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

When you've gone into it more, come back to us with things you find tricky (as per the intro box about homework above), Julia Rossi (talk) 08:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have gone into it, thank you very much, Julia Rossi. I was looking for opinions to compare with my own. I did not come here to be patronized. If you have nothing to say might I suggest that you confine yourself to saying nothing.Jessie George (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Jessie, your bitchy reply to Julia (a valued contributor to this Desk) is sad and unnecessary. The people who reply to questions like yours are not paid nor is this their regular job. So have a thought for Julia's feelings. Your question certainly sounds like homework and Julia was quite correct to ask for more information - Adrian Pingstone (talk) 19:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems I came here, first, to be patronized and then lectured and insulted for my bitchy response. I do not need any silly little homilies from you, Adrian Pingstone. I know how the reference desk works. I asked my question because I was impressed by the expertise some people here have shown in dealing with literature and its historical context. Not, seemingly, in this case. My question was placed in good faith. The responses I have had have been shallow and stupid. I've done with Misplaced Pages and I have done with the reference desk. So long. Jessie George (talk) 08:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you present your opinions so we can compare all the better? AllenHansen (talk) 07:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ha! What a flounce! You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, Jessie George.Snorgle (talk) 16:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, for fruit flies, that's not technically true. GeeJo ⁄_(c) • 13:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I've now lodged a request on this user's talk page that her question is posted afresh. Clio the Muse (talk) 03:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Aklavik

Do exist a city called Aklavik in Alaska? Or is only in the Northwest territories? In an atlant of 1967 there are monthly temperature of "Aklavik (Alaska)" (9 mt of altitude): January: -27,8°, February -26,9°, March -22,5°, April -13,1°, May -0,6°, June 9,4°, July 13,6°, August 10°, September 3,3° October -6,7°, November -19,4°, December -26,7°. Is only a confusion? Francesco.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/Aklavik,_Northwest_Territories for the settlement in Canada.

There are a few references via Google to an Aklavik in Alaska, but but none of them give any useful details. Maybe contacting the relevant authority in Juneau would give a precise answer. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I can find no indication that such a place exists. Like Cockatoo, I tried a Google search of "Aklavik Alaska" (With quotes around it). The only result that remotely suggested an actual place was a description of a photo from a museum's archives: "Notes: Aerial photograph of Aklavik, Alaska taken by the Royal Canadian Air Force." I don't know what the Canadian Air Force would be doing photographing Alaska; smells like a mistake to me.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. A Google Maps search only shows "Aklavik Circle, Sterling, Alaska" which looks like the name of a street rather than a town. Thanks. ~AH1 02:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It's pure speculation but I could imagine that a US weather service, wanting to report weather over the whole of the US, might find that the nearest reporting point to some chunk of Alaska was actually Aklavik in the NWT. And I could imagine them referring to that part of the country as "Aklavik, Alaska" - especially if their system didn't allow for reporting points outside the US. As I say, just speculation. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The US Geographic Names Information Server (page requires Javascript enabled) has no entry for Aklavik, so it certainly would seem there is no such place in Alaska. --Anonymous, 23:24 UTC, March 24, 2008.

Demonology trivia

Who fits the following description: "the lion-headed, eagle-footed Assyrian-Babylonian demon of disease and evil?" He is believed to wield a "mace of wounding" and a "dagger of killing." I need the name of this creature so that I may worship him.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Gozer? Adam Bishop (talk) 13:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

No Ghostbusters jokes please. This is a serious question (although a separate question of interest might be whether the fictional monsters Gozer and Zuul were based on actual Sumerian demons--but let's attend to my primary question first).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh, sorry, I couldn't resist. But if I am looking at the same book as you on Google Books, then it apparently doesn't have a name. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It is an irritating and somewhat uninformative book; however, I believe he does have a name and very possibly a Misplaced Pages article. I am of the opinion that learning this entity's name will allow me to animate a host of undead warriors from the bowels of the Earth. Any Wikipedian who helps me discover this name may be permitted to rule at our side.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Possibly Asag. It's how he is depicted in Hordes of the Things, for example. See here. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm restoring your first comment (hope you don't mind). I think this actually helpful, and I love that picture! If I had to guess, I would think that "the Hordes of the Things" designer probably used this as inspiration (see figure 2). scratch that. on closer inspection, the miniaturist said he constructed his creature from a griffin with the head of a temple dog. However, I can't find evidence that Asag was described this way in ancient poems.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Zu or Anzu. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so.... Anzu looks like an actual bird--and not a particularly anthropomorphic one. I think my demon is more of a half man-half beast kind of a deal. Also bear in mind that the demon I wish to worship is "Assyrian-Babylonian," not "Sumerian." Can someone tell me whether these cultures had discrete mythologies, or whether they overlapped or derived from one another......--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Mesopotamian religious practices "overlapped" greatly: the succesive waves of new immigrants tended to incorporate -and deeply respect- the religious traditions of the peoples and "older civilizations" they found already established in the region, and syncretism run rampant. As a clear example, long after Akkadian had replaced Sumerian as the spoken language of Lower Mesopotamia, Sumerian made its last stand as a venerated religious language in which certain rites continued to be performed. - Ev (talk) 15:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

rofl I just saw the picture at Google Books :-) This kind of demon is generically known as an ugallu, but I'm not aware of any instance of one being individualized and given a proper name. Its depiction in the walls of Assyrian palaces was intended to protect the place from supernatural beings and evil spirits, much like a lamassu or the Roman Lares. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 14:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Ugallu = Gallu? Or is that a different type of Mesopotamian demon?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16653/16653-h/16653-h.htm " Gallu was applied in the sense of "foreign devil" to human and superhuman adversaries of certain monarchs."

Elsewhere they are described as 'demon bulls'

Caution. Don't these creatures usually make unreasonable demands in return for their proper name eg Your soul, years supply of snickers bars, gold subscription to XBOX Live etc...87.102.16.238 (talk) 14:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Different types. Mesopotamian languages are full of homonyms: gallu or gallû itself can also mean "soldier" or an equivalent to our "policeman". - Ev (talk) 15:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

State first to throw a million men into war?

Lotsofissues 13:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Achaemenid Empire, if you believe Herodotus...but no one does. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Roman Empire probably could have. Or India. Or, if it doesn't matter if they were all on the same side, maybe China. The Maurya empire had 50 million people at it's peak, the roman empire between 70 and 100 million 400 years later. A large part of the roman army seems to have been used for defence of it's huge borders, which might count as a war. at the time of the Maurya empire, the chinese Zhou empire was ending in a civil war. I don't know any exact numbers though, but I suspect it must be one of these three.HS7 (talk) 20:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Qin Empire of China (221-206BC) (which emerged the winner after the centuries of civil war that ended the Zhou Dynasty) had an army of over a million. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Douglas MacArthur

How popular was it to name a child after Douglas MacArthur during World War II? What references show this?--Doug 13:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I doubt many people changed their child’s last name, so probably not that popular. --S.dedalus (talk) 21:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Good point! I will reword the question: Were there an unusual number of new born sons named Douglas during the time of WWII because of the popularity of Douglas MacArthur? Sources that say this?--Doug 21:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I went here and calculated the numbers of Douglases per decade as a crudely rounded percentage of the total through the twentieth century. I'm not going to even try to cobble together an ASCII graph of the results, but here they are in tabular form:

1900–09—.06

1910–19—.09

1920–29—.1

1930–39—.2

1940–49—.5

1950–59—.7

1960–69—.7

1970–79—.4

1980–89—.2

1990–99—.1

As crude as they might be, these numbers show a marked spike, more in the post–WWII years. Remember that his fame extended into the fifties with the Korean War. --Milkbreath (talk) 22:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. These suggest, but of course do not prove, that it had something to do with MacArthur. Some of the Douglases may have been so named purely because it had become a popular name for baby boys (which in turn may have been because of MacArthur's prominence). The popularity of individual names rises and falls for all sorts of complex reasons, and maybe it would have happened anyway. Then again, maybe MacArthur wasn't kidding when he said "I will return" (he never specified in which form he'd return).  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 04:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Not that this will prove the matter, either, I went back and did "Dwight", a rarer name (This is all US data, by the way.):

1900–09—.04

1910–19—.04

1920–29—.04

1930–39—.04

1940–49—.07

1950–59—.1

1960–69—.07

1970–79—.04

1980–89—.02

1990–99—.02

The frequency of the most popular name (Robert, Michael, etc.) stayed in the range 3 to 8 percent throughout. --Milkbreath (talk) 11:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Well thanks for the statistical information on Douglas. I was born in 1945 and nowhere in my family history is the name "Douglas", so wondered how I came of this name. I do believe you have confirmed my suspicion.--Doug 16:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Those are some interesting calculations. By the way, it was once not uncommon in the US to use the first and last name of a famous person when naming a child, so if MacArthur lived a century earlier, I'd expect there'd be plenty of guys named Douglas MacArthur Smith and Douglas MacArthur Jones, etc., but I don't know if this first & middle naming practice was common in the 20th century. The most obvious examples of this are all the people named George Washington something. In my own family tree there is an Andrew Jackson Myers and a Ulysses Grant Myers; there were probably hundreds of boys similarly named. Even someone not well-known today, like Bishop William McKendree, had notable people named after him: William McKendree Springer, William McKendree Robbins, and William McKendree Gwin. There are doubtless many such examples, though I would expect presidents and generals to top the list. I wonder if there was a corresponding naming practice for girls? —Kevin Myers 00:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Florence was not a common name for girls before Florence Nightingale. Edison (talk) 04:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Martin Luther King, Jr. is a relatively recent example of the given names being the given name + surname of an honoured person. Although MLK was born in 1929, this name was adopted in 1935. One example does not establish that it was common, of course.  --Lambiam 11:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What were Sazonov's Thirteen Points ?

I read that foreign minister of Russian Empire, Sergey Sazonov declared a famous Thirteen Points during First World War that established war aims of Russia. However I was not able to found the exact text of those points or their exact composition. Does anybody now if there is an online text with his points, and what were they ?--Molobo (talk) 15:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The first google hit for 'Sazonov thirteen points' is an article that claims to list them. In case you can't access JSTOR, here they are:

1. The three allied powers have as their primary goal the destruction of German power and the German desire for military domination;
2. Territorial modifications must be determined by the principle of nationality;
3. Russia will annex the lower course of the Niemen River and the eastern portion of Galicia; it will also annex to the kingdom of Poland eastern Posen, southern Silesia, and the western portion of Galicia;
4. France will regain Alsace-Lorraine, and, if it so desires, a portion of the Prussian Rhineland and of the Palatinate;
5. Belgium will receive a significant territorial increase in the vicinity of Aix-la-Chapelle;
6. Denmark will regain Schleswig-Holstein;
7. The kingdom of Hanover will be restored;
8. Austria will be divided into a tripartite monarchy, comprised of the empire of Austria, the kingdom of Bohemia, and the kingdom of Hungary; the Austrian empire will include only its hereditary provinces, the kingdom of Bohemia will be comprised of present-day Bohemia as well as Slovakia, and the Hungarian kingdom will have to reach an understanding with Romania concerning Transylvania;
9. Serbia will annex Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia, and the northern portion of Albania;
10. Bulgaria will receive from Serbia territorial compensation in Macedonia;
11. Greece will annex the southern portion of Albania, with the exception of Valona, which will fall to Italy;
12. Britain, France, and Japan will divide the German colonies; and
13. Germany and Austria will pay war reparations .

That's (a reconstruction of) the version sent to Paris by the French ambassador to Russia after talks with Sazonov. It should be noted that the thesis of that article is that the points are just Paléologue's write-up of an informal discussion, and never constituted official Russian policy. Algebraist 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Could these go in the article? Julia Rossi (talk) 01:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

why dont citizens of other countries get to vote in U.S. elections

why don't citizens of, say, France, get to vote in U.S. elections, given that they're just as much affected by the results as Americans are...?

Because it would be anarchy. Governments are a group of people who hold a monopoly on the legitimate use of force in a given territory, therefore it makes sense that those within that territory should be the ones to chose that government. Foreign citizens are not bound to the land they are living in and could therefore vote with a shorter time perspective, or with other interests pertinent to his/her country of origin. Besides, voting is a right and rights bring with them certain constraints and obligations that foreign citizens might not want to have.--Yamanbaiia 18:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Anarchy is a lack of government, not expanding the suffrage to include non-citizens. The reason citizens of France don't get to vote in US elections is because the US has made voting a right that comes with citizenship—it's as simple as that. You could imagine a situation in which a country allowed non-citizens to vote (say, non-documented immigrants, or people with work visas, etc., or citizens of territories, etc.). It would be unusual to say the least but I don't think it destroys the idea of government itself, anymore than the idea that citizens can vote even if they are not residents of a territory (e.g. by absentee ballot) would. Thousands of Americans vote from other countries, they are not necessarily any more "bound to the land" than, say, a French national living in New York. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The "unusual situation" wasn't soo unusual in the US until the 1830s or so; white male non-citizens, immigrants residing in the US could and did vote in some places. Too lazy to dig up a cite. Should be somewhere here. John Z (talk) 21:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In Australia, voting is both a right and a responsibility (as long as you're registered to vote, which is also a responsibility). It's no longer the case, but there were times in our not too distant past where certain persons (eg. British subjects) who were not Australian citizens but resided here could register to vote, and having registered, were then required to vote. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The number of supra-national elections is very limited. The two that come to mind are:

• Papal elections, where 80-odd cardinals of various national bishoprics elect the Pope in the papal conclave. Clearly, this is not a sample of universal suffrage.
• Elections for the European parliament, where some 350 Mio Europeans vote for this legislative council by general and trans-national suffrage within the 27 member states.

Bear in mind that trans-national elections are a massive logistic problem. They also pose significant problems in the allocation of seats. Compare this to the US senate, where every state, regardless of the size holds two seats. Also consider that the electoral system of voting varies. In the US, the president is elected indirectly, in some countries you have a proportional system, in others a majoritarian system.

There are stacks of other complicated issues. In many European countries a parliament can dissolve and call for new elections. In the US there is no such option (at least in my understanding). All these conflicting issues have to be tackled and solved before a trans-national election makes any sense and can be implemented. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Italy has seats in its parliament reserved for representation of Italians living abroad. A man who had migrated to Australia many years ago, and who I assume has dual Italian-Australian citizenship, won one of these seats and became an Italian Senator a couple of years ago, but his primary residence is still in Australia. If my assumption about his dual citizenship is correct, he also not only gets to vote in Australian elections, he is required to do so; whereas he's not required to vote in Italian elections. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In Canada, the right to vote was not limited to Canadian citizens until the 1970s or 1980s. Any Canadian resident who was a British subject could vote -- which basically meant any citizen of a British Commonwealth country. However, this is just an example of the way Canada's status changed in gradual stages from British colony to independent country. Until about 1947, there was no such thing as a Canadian citizen (or UK citizen either) as distinct from the broader term "British subject". And the vote never extended to British subjects resident elsewhere. --Anonymous, 23:31 UTC, March 24, 2008 (copyedited later).

Preposterous. By the same token, why don't US citizens get to vote in French elections? No man is an island, after all. AllenHansen (talk) 07:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Many ideas that are accepted now were once considered quite preposterous, such as that of allowing common people – and even women! – to vote. I any case, there can be little doubt that the original questioner did not pose the question to get factual information, but to express the opinion that non-US citizens ought to be able to have a say in who will be the primary political leader of the First World. However, Misplaced Pages in general and the Reference desk in general is not intended for soapboxing or general debates, however interesting.  --Lambiam 12:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

what's the MOST number of people that could be hidden and unaccounted for without anyone realizing it?

n/t

6.5 billion. Absolutely no one would be able to know where has everybody gone to.--Yamanbaiia 19:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to be nit-picky but who are "anyone" in this case? Obviously the people being hidden would know they were being hidden, obviously the people hiding them would know. Are we talking about an organization of hiders and an organization of the hidden? Are the hidden being hidden by choice? Why are they being hidden? Does "realizing it" mean knowing the specific reason people are disappearing or just being aware of the disappearances at all?* Does it matter who is being hidden? (The most could be only one if it's the wrong person -- if you hid my wife, I'd know pretty quick!) It's a somewhat silly and unanswerable question if you don't define the parameters a little more carefully. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

*Just as an example of this: the Manhattan Project was only "secret" in the sense that many people outside the project and even many inside the project did not know it was a project specifically to build an atomic bomb, but there were thousands of people both inside and outside the project that knew there was some sort of secret project. So we say the Manhattan Project was a massive secret, but what we mean is very few people outside the project knew it was made to develop specifically an atomic bomb rather than nobody knew that there was a project at all. Vice-President Truman famously did not know the purpose of the Manhattan Project—but he did know that there was a $2 billion dollar research venture going on in Tennessee, Washington, and New Mexico (and had in fact started to investigate the spending before he was called off it by FDR). --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If 100% (all) were to disappear, nobody would be left to notice that they are gone.

If 0% (none) were to disappear, nobody would have left to be noticed that they are gone.

Anything in between would be noticed, at least in a reasonably "safe" society, sooner or later.

Bear in mind that societies have existed and still exist where hundreds, thousands, even millions disappear before the "outside world" realises.

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Cookatoo! All this time I've been living in one big safe-house and didn't know it! Well, there ya go – that secret's outta tha bag. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops! I am an agent (the name is Smith, James Smith) of the almighty Xenu, he who has whisked you all away to the terrestrial loony bin without anybody realising it.

You have penetrated the Inner Darkness and will be cast into the slavery of the evil Diskus Wikipaedos (that is just a rotund version of the one-way boomerang, by the way). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 01:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Paintings of the Popes in the Vatican

Is there an article on the Vatican's paintings of the Popes in St. Peter's Basilica? The artwork is a line of circular portraits of each Pope. Alientraveller (talk) 18:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to the Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls where numerous holders of the papacy are depicted in a frieze. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the one! Thanks! Alientraveller (talk) 20:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Gay Nazi Officer

Who was gay in the Nazi Germany? Was Himmler? 190.49.110.46 (talk) 20:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The obvious ones are Ernst Röhm and his deputy Edmund Heines, who were purged in 1934. Himmler wasn't gay. Algebraist 20:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It has also been alleged that Hitler was gay or bisexual. See Adolf Hitler's sexuality --Kvasir (talk) 12:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The largest resistance in the WWII

I am working on article on Armia Krajowa, the Polish resistance (now A-class and future FAC). Many sources state it was the largest resistance force in WWII but a few give it the second place after the Yugoslavian partisans (see Armia_Krajowa#endnote_anone). The Yugoslavian partisans article is in pretty bad shape, and I was only able to find information that they numbered about 800,000 in 1945. I am looking for some more numbers, particularly for 1944, when AK numbered about 400,000. In 1945 AK has grew smaller due to hostility from the Soviet Union, while it would appear Yugoslavian partisans grew larger (since they were communist allied; with the coming of the Eastern Front Polish communists - Armia Ludowa grew from ~5,000 in 1943 to 10,000 in early 1944 and 30,000 in mid 1944). Hence I would like to verify if possible the numbers for Yugoslavian partisans in 1944, and also whether there was one of several organizations of them (perhaps the confusion stems from the fact that AK was the largest organization worldwide, but the Yugoslavian partisans refer to the total number of several organizations)? Also, I do wonder what were the numbers for Soviet, Chinese and Soviet partisans... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Depends on what you define as the "resistance". The Chinese Red Army had 900,000 members in World War II. However, they were re-formed as the Eighth Route Army of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China in 1937 (full scale war broke out slightly earlier in the same year), so was nominally part of the "official" army of China. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Resistance - behind the lines, partisans, irregulars, etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

2010 quarter

What will the United States quarter coin look like in 2010, after the 50 State Quarters program has ended? Presumably the obverse will be kept, but what will happen to the eagle on the reverse? --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 22:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Different strokes for different fokes

I have not heard this comment used in any other way than to defend deviation from norm. It does raise the possibility that fokes are different and the reason for the difference is that they follow different rules. For instance, when someone spits on the sidewalk an immediate line is drawn between them and me. I do not spit on the sidewalk because it is disgusting to feel one's shoe slide a little instead of taking firm hold of the concrete and looking down to see where someone has thoughtlessly eliminate their mucus. I consider that the rules I follow and the rules the person who did this follows are irreconcilably different and that like divorce merits separation. Divorce is one way in which irreconcilable differences in the rules that people follow are ultimately and decisively handled. Are there any other ways in which irreconcilable differences in the rules that people follow are ultimately and decisively handled? ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 23:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

For sake of discussion, there's a difference between laws (legality) and rules (customs). Something such as spitting on sidewalks is illegal in the US, Beijing, Singapore and discouraged by consensus in other places – usually for public health reasons. Possibly how people respond to this is "different strokes for different folks", meaning they can choose a way to deal with the prohibition (such as not spitting, spitting into a tissue etc). DSFDF is more to do with choices within legal parameters. In the divorce example for dealing with irreconcilable differences, there may be ways of carrying it out, such as the friendly way (amicably and co-operatively), the angry way (with hostility and endless litigation), between the parties (through mediation say) or in the courts. Or are you looking at other avenues of handling irreconcilable differences (such as in civil disputes, talking it through, moving away, aggression etc)? Not all different strokes are legal and not all have to be laws since there's an area where people are expected to be reasonable. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

As to degree all rules are made up of variables and in terms of human endeavor variables can have multiple states. What is not often realized is simply the order in which variables are arranged may represent a difference in the rule that the variables combine to make. In other words the most significant variable for me might be not spewing mucus on the sidewalk which for others it may be whether I say "Hello." Usually the violation of another's rule can be overcome by an apology unless the violation happens too much. This is what I expect you mean by "reasonable." However, I am referring to cases in which no apology is offered and no change is made in the rule, making the difference permanently irreconcilable. ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 00:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That seems to bring in a third option sometimes called, cutting your losses. Someone told me an anecdote possibly from the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying (but it wasn't my find, so I can't verify it) about a man walking down a street with a hole in it and repeatedly falling into that hole, until he decided to take a different street. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

hummm... are you possibly saying one way irreconcilable differences might become reconciled is if the rule which an individual upholds results in undesirable consequences promoting him to change that rule? ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 00:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I feel the individual need not change that personal rule if it's a valid one, but change it's application and timing. The subject is just reconciling himself to an irreconcilable difference. He just takes another street, not another world. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In logic it may only take a change in state of one variable or a change in significance (order) of a set of variables to make a difference reconcilable. Taking an alternate route makes the problem reconcilable. Now if two people are walking home and one wants to use the scenic route and the other the quickest route then unless one yields to the other as to the rule that they will follow an irreconcilable difference occurs that requires separation. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

March 24

Hitler's "compassion"

Inspired by the Gay Nazi section above I saw this in the Rohm article: "as a last act of compassion,

Its the admission of being wrong in one's belief that homosexuality is an acceptable sexual orientation so as to show one's support for and harmony with the Nazi state (ideal of heterosexual orientation) despite being sentenced to death for being a homosexual contrary to the ideal. ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 00:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In some cultures, the Japanese culture comes to mind, of course, suicide has been regarded as an honorary method to conclude one´s life, whilst an execution was shameful.

Consider that virtually all of the top Nazis (Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Goering, Bormann) comitted suicide. Adolf Eichmann is the only major official who did not follow this path.

It does, fortunately, sound entirely alien and sick to us, but granting to somebody the right to suicide was a privilege in the twisted Aryan "Blood and Honour" mythos of the Third Reich. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this what explains the many suicides of the youthful and radical followers of Islam? 71.100.1.14 (talk) 00:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Martyrdom is entirely different from Seppuku or its German equivalent. --S.dedalus (talk) 00:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you describe the act of Jesus Christ as somewhere in between? 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you describe yourself as a troll? :) --S.dedalus (talk) 03:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

No, as a Jew. However, your post fits the act of a troll very well. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 08:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I will ignore the above posting, as it is logically unrelated to Julia´s query.

On seconds thoughts, if you were on death row, you may prefer suicide to the degrading spectacle of being strapped to some contraption and know that 20 witnesses watch your death throes.

Consider also, that some of the executions in the Third Reich were gruesomely slow executions where victims struggled for half an hour against impending death. The offer of a gun may have been almost a sign of human compassion. As you know, Ernst Röhm refused this offer. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks all – I was wondering about the cultural meaning of even being given the choice. Maybe Röhm had something else at stake. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

By "else" i mean something in his own mind, to his own way of thinking. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC) ...spiritual reconciliation with the ideals of the Nazi State, perhaps for the benefit of his family or friends is what I think is implied by the response above. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing but - family and war pension - being shot as a traitor leaves the family in an awkwards position. Commiting suicide lets them avoid the court martial and firing squad - leaving them with a 'clean slate' - did that make sense.?87.102.16.238 (talk) 10:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

There does seem to be a culpability factor. Thanks all, Julia Rossi (talk) 02:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

to give somebody the possibility to commit suicide was a custom all over Europe. The custom is even portrayed in movies. If I remember correctly The Life of Emile Zola shows Dreyfus being offered a handgun.--Tresckow (talk) 04:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Tresckow is absolutely right: it was a general practice among soldiers of all nations. Clio the Muse (talk) 03:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

American economic history

Is the following objectively correct?: In the 20th Century, lasting/major conflicts have had a positive effect on the American economy: WW1, WW2 and the Vietnam war all gave an good boost to the US economy, primarily through industrial production and employment: but the current Iraq war, although a lasting conflict, has not stimulated the economy, as top-level technology has not significantly increased industrial production nor employment. Thanks for help and information, --AlexSuricata (talk) 01:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nationally I'm unsure, but following internet bubble, and post 9/11 has greatly helped to expand the Northern Virginia area according to this Time article which referred to Fairfax County, Virginia as ""one of the great economic success stories of our time." (albeit because of our so-called "Rich Uncle.) Essentially, government, and government contract jobs makes Fairfax County, Virginia have a unemployement rate of 1.9% incomparison of the national rate of 4.9%. The main reason is that is geographically extremely close to the Nation's Capital, and that many private and public companies and Fortune Five Hundred companies are located within the county's borders. Most of said companies deal with the Military-industrial complex, intelligence gathering, technology/IT/technical for government and companies, lobbying, or just white collar/professional employement. Besides that, Fairfax County, and next door neighbor Loudoun County have the first and second highest medium incomes in the nation respectively, for the same reasons. The Northern Virginia/DC Capital Area is just booming due to the influx of federal spending. As an aside, mine own father works as a Computer program developer and tester for the CIA (I think; he legally can't tell me anything. Kinda cool huh?). I hope this helped to answer at least part of your question. Zidel333 (talk) 01:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It may be that the post-9/11 military spending has helped the DC Metro Area and perhaps other regions dependent on military spending, but nationally it is hard to find a positive effect. Instead, spending on the Iraq war and other military activity has increased the budget deficit and contributed to the U.S. current account deficit, to the detriment of the overall economy. Also, the pouring of resources into essentially unproductive uses instead of into productive infrastructure or other capital weakens the U.S. economy in the long run. In fact, while the Vietnam War stimulated the economy in the short run, in the somewhat longer run, it undermined the dollar by forcing the collapse of the Bretton Woods system and led to the harmful stagflation of the 1970s. I think that if you look closely at the supposed positive economic effects of wars, they amount to no more than short-term stimulus that does the economy more harm than good long-term. While a long-term boom followed World War II, after a late-40s recession, this can be better explained by structural factors that favored the U.S. economy in the aftermath of the war than by the warmaking itself. No war since has placed the United States in a such a favorable global position, and arguably every war since the Korean War has weakened the position of the United States in the global economy. Marco polo (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I neglected to say that an almost decade-long boom followed WWI in the United States (though not so much in Europe), again due to the way the war improved the global economic position of the US rather than due to the short-term stimulus of the warmaking (which led to a sharp recession in 1919–1920). World Wars I and II improved the global economic position of the United States mainly by devastating the economies of its main competitors (Britain and Europe in World War I, Britain, Europe, and to a lesser extent Japan in World War II). This left the United States in the position of the world's workshop and supplier. Quite unrelated to these wars, however, the United States was rising to global ascendancy due to 1) its relatively early industrialization and extensive transport infrastructure, 2) its large and rapidly expanding population, commanding a relatively high standard of living, and 3) the size of its market. While its competitors mostly shared the first advantage, they did not share the second or third to the same extent. Since World War II, the United States's military adventures have not brought the same advantages for the following reasons: 1) wars since World War II have diverted US resources from productive investment while leaving its main competitors (Europe and increasingly East Asia) free to invest in new and more productive infrastructure and industrial plant, 2) the second and third advantages of the United States listed above have diminished. The United States population is not expanding as rapidly as it once did, and the median standard of living has actually been dropping due in part to policies that have sharply increased income disparities in the United States, eroding the purchasing power of the median household. Meanwhile, the main competitors of the United States have internal markets that are potentially as large or larger (China) or have combined in trading blocks to compete with the United States on the basis of scale (European Union). Therefore, the United States no longer enjoys the same structural advantages over its competitors as it did in the first half of the 20th century at the same time that it has, in effect, been wasting its resources on wars that did not improve its economic position while its competitors have been building their economies. Marco polo (talk) 20:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Break-up of the Soviet Union

How strongly did the Soviet Union in the period 1981-1991 fear a possible coming civil war? Thanks, --AlexSuricata (talk) 01:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What broke the State occurred at the top and not the middle or the bottom. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Very strongly, although 71.100.175.66 is essentially correct. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 01:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Erm is that true? Did anyone in the soviet union say in 1985 even vaguely fear civil war. This is news to me. References please etc??87.102.16.238 (talk) 11:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Post 1985, but: There was the August coup (1991) against Gorbachev, there was his resignation and the dissolution of the Supreme Soviet. Under Yeltsin there was widespread corruption, economic collapse and the 1993 Russian constitutional crisis when the parliament was shelled by tanks.

If you imagine similar events: President X steps down, Congress and Senate dissolve, California and the newly formed Confederate States cede from the Union. The role of the armed forces is not necessarily clear cut as tanks are rolling towards Washington. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nazi justice and foreign workers

First, my belated thanks to the person who gave such a wonderful response to my last set of questions on the Nazi state. I would like to build on this by asking one more. Germany had a huge number of foreign workers from 1940 onwards, some forced and some voluntary. I would like to know precisely how crimes, misdemeanours and the like committed by these people were treated by the normal apparatus of law and justice? Some were treated worse than others, I know, but precisely how? Tee Pot (talk) 13:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Attitude towards disabled people in Buddhism

I have heard and sometimes read that certain elements of Buddhism discriminate people born with disabilities as they believe it to be punishment for former life. I would be greateful for more information on that subject.--Molobo (talk) 14:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This does not form part of Buddhist teaching. You may be thinking of the caste system, which is a Hindu tradition. You might be interested to read about karma in Hinduism and karma in Buddhism.--Shantavira| 09:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Analyzing "bog land" by Seamus Heaney

I understand that I am not supposed to ask for homework help, but I am totally stumped. Its for English Literature, and I'm supposed to be analyzing the poem "bog land" by Seamus Heaney. Currently all I've got is that the poem represents Irish history - with the layers of the bog preserving it (such as finding bog bodies from thousands of years ago). I'm not asking that anyone analyze the poem for me, only that if some kind person could point me in the right direction or give me a few hints. Thank you. Sincerely, Robbert. 79.76.231.232 (talk) 16:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This search may help. There seems to be good stuff out there, such as Landscape or Mindscape? Seamus Heaney's Bogs. I hope this answer does not prevent a more knowledgeable soul from assisting. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking for any information on Harold Johnson, 60s-era jazz pianist

Hello there. I'm looking for whatever information is available on 60s era jazz pianist Harold Johnson of the Harold Johnson Sextet. Repeated google searches have turned up very little info. I've managed to find a very basic bio, but I'm looking for whatever additional information is available, such as: Is he still alive? Where is he living? Is he still playing? How do I contact him for bookings? etc etc. Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance. (Santegeezhe (talk) 18:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC))

Please sign future edits by typing four tildes (~~~~) after your post. As you can see here wikipedia, currently does not have any info on the person you are looking for. Perhaps you could use a search engine. When and if you find anything you may want to create a page about him here on wikipedia. Please make sure it follows Misplaced Pages: guidelines and WP:N though. Thanks --Camaeron (t/c) 17:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Googling "Harold Johnson Sextet" brings up a mention of him (without a redlink) in Leon 'Ndugu' Chancler and a short article here which is clearly about your man but may be the bio you have already? Here is a page which says that in 1967 he was still a senior at the Washington High School in Westmont, California and may be the same Harold Johnson who later played keyboards on Motown recordings and was an organist behind Liz McComb. An interview here also mentions him - "There was a guy named Harold Johnson who was a grade ahead of me in my piano class in Horace Mann Junior High School. He also played in his father’s church... When I got to Washington High School, there was a talent show that he played in with his own band." You could try calling the local paper and/or public library in Westmont. Xn4 00:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Time Capsule

Hello. The term "time capsule" was used since 1937. The idea of time capsules existed 5000 years ago. What were time capsules called before 1937? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare (talk) 21:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

On a wider scale: Books? Manuscripts? Cave paintings? Language? Evolution?

All of those are time capsules of a kind. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Burials with personal things and treasures or artifacts worked as time capsules but were not likely intended that way – even if they were meant to be collected later in the afterlife it's for "use" rather than for post-time value. Looks like it's a retrospective kind of application. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Musical instrument learning resources (Piano in particular)

I'm looking for recommendations on resources for learning different musical instruments. My main goal is to find a quality resource for learning piano/keyboard, but I'd also appreicate if you could recommend me some for ANY other instruments, especially guitar and percussion. Thanks! --Voyaging 21:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

While self-taught can work, I've found having a real live teacher saves so much learning the hard way. But it's hard to recommend a teacher in person over the web. Do you have any friends whose kids take lessons? That may be a good way to find a good teacher. NB that for piano, people generally also learn to read standard music notation, whereas for guitar many play by ear or learn tablature or some other system. Hope you have fun! WikiJedits (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what a resource is, but Mel Bay's "Rhythm Guitar Chord System" is excellent. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

By resource, I mean just basically anything you can use to help teach yourself. Books, videos, sites, references, etc. Thanks guys for the help! I'm probably going to try to find a teacher. --Voyaging 16:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm late, I'm late, I'm LATE... For weeks I've been combing the humanities desk for a music question and this one somehow slipped between my fingers...

Well, to answer that question, nothing beats a one-on-one teacher-student conference, period. But if you want something on the side, I've found a handful of videos on YouTube (you can get started here) from a long list of installments. Of course, I wouldn't recommend on relying on these entirely, but you can watch these on weekends, after lessons, etc. Sorry again for the delay in reply! =)--~~MusicalConnoisseur~~ Got Classical? 05:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hehe, no worries. Thanks for the reply, I'll check those videos out and probably get a teacher. Voyaging 01:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

March 25

Nation and Ethnic Group

What is the difference between the terms nation and ethnic group. Is there a certain criteria differentiating one from the other.

A huge difference, a nation is a political entity which (hopefully) endears itself to social and cultural unity for all the different sub-groups with in it. An ethnic group is a group of people sharing at the very least a genetic linkage, and sometimes a social and/or cultural link as wel, howevere the two can exist very independently, and can split each other up. If we look in the conext of Africa. When the Europeans arrived they thought Africans should be divided up into ethnic groups and tribes because that is what they expected, and thus in a way you could argue they invented tribalism and emphasised the idea of unity within ethnic groups. Then they drew nations around these groups, unintentionally splitting up the true social groups with political boundaries. Look at the troubles within Kenya now, there is little nationalism because loyalty is to ethnic and social groups rather than to the political entity that is Kenya the nation. Nationalism was not a known concept at first in Africa because people didn't give their loyalty to nations, but to other social committments. So there is an interplay between the two, but they can affect each other greatly and exist independently. SGGH 02:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I must disagree. A nation is not the same as a country. Try reading Nation#Ambiguity_in_usage for a start, and compare that with ethnic group, particularly ethnicity and nation. Nationalism and the European conception of the nation-state are also useful related concepts. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd certainly agree with BrainyBabe's commentary, and I think the question is a good one to ponder. My opinion (based on my experience and reading, which in this area is not very extensive) is that when I use "ethnic group" I am talking about a self-identified community that is organized primarily around shared ancestry/race, whereas when I use "nation" I am talking about a self-identified community that organizes itself primarily around societal/political structure. The Kurds, in my example, are an ethnic group (they see themselves as a biological community), and most Kurds would identify themselves as a nation (that is, a community that is or ought to be unified structurally). I might call Native Americans an ethnic group (I think that's a community connected biologically) but not a nation (this is not a group seeking to unify itself in one structure, from my perspective...nations for Native Americans are at a lower level: the Navajo, for example, which I would call an ethnic group and a nation). "Americans" (or whatever we call the denizens of the United States) are, in my terminology, a nation but not an ethnic group. I believe I am using these words as they ought to be, but if anyone has a better (and more easily explained) distinction I'd be anxious to know it. Hope this helps, Jwrosenzweig (talk) 04:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It is always difficult to stake out the differences between two closely related notions, each of which is somewhat fluid. Although members of an ethnic group will often have a larger genetic commonality among themselves than with randomly selected people, it is a mistake to use genetic linkage one way or another as a criterion for ethnicity. The most important aspect, in my opinion, is a shared culture, which includes many aspects, such as language, art, myths, customs, dress, and cuisine. Also important is a sense of a group-derived identity, of belonging to the group, which is only possible if there is a shared culture. Quite naturally, people who identify as members of an ethnic group are more likely to marry within the group, which explains the stability of genetic commonality.

I am not inclined to call the Native Americans an ethnic group; rather, they are a conglomeration of many diverse ethnic groups.

The word nation is related to nativity, and originally indicated a group of people, such as a tribe, related by birth. The "German nation", as used in "the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" (Sacrum Romanum Imperium Nationis Germanicae, Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation), consisted originally of an ethnic group, the Germans – although in 1512, when this name was adopted, the Empire had expanded so as to extend to many non-German ethnic groups. It is only with the advent of the nation state (which the Holy Roman Empire was not), with its ideology of nationalism, that the notion of "nation" acquires a new meaning, diverging from that of an ethnic group. The new notion of "nation" becomes primarily political: a group of people who share a sovereign territory under a common leadership, and have a sense of sharing a common destiny.  --Lambiam 13:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

translators/interpretors salary

how much do they make an hour, like court interpreters and medical interpretors?

In the US, $35319.23 - $57864.66 for court interpreters and bilingual job descriptions as at 2005. Another google find (search: court interpreter salary) gives 30k to 80k pa. A nice link to FAQs on this is here. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of "list of automobiles - makes with histories.

Hello, I have never asked a question before which will become obvious shortly. I was reviewing the entrie(s) in the above topic/listing and saw a discussion, I believe, about deleting the above lists? Will they be replaced with something similiar or new? Are they believed to be incorrect? I have found them to be very interesting and informative. They are, I believe, rather incredible w/ many names, makes etc. that are completely unknown to me along with their histories, pictures etc.

It appears this "deletion" is imminent(sic). Could you please advise as to the current decision, if any? Would there be a similiar replacement of them? Where should I look for an answer? Thank you for your patience! Respectfully, jdmoran2Jdmoran2 (talk) 03:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't find the article you're talking about. The best way to get an answer here would be for you to go to the article you mean, copy the title, and paste it here between double square brackets, like this: Audi. This will create a link that will take us straight to it. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

1937 Soviet census

What literacy rate did the 1937 Soviet census determine for the USSR? The education in the Soviet Union article gives the literacy rate in 1939, but the 1939 census was doctored by the government and is not reliable. --Bowlhover (talk) 05:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Absurd Philosophical Notion

Which writer or philosopher was it, or have there been several, who raised the notion that we only admire great men of history because of the atrocities which they committed? In other words, for instance, Lincoln would not have been lauded as nearly so great a leader if he hadn't shown a willingness to shed blood on the battlefield. Our saints and prophets are marginalized and neglected, for the most part, while those who make haste to commit murder and evil are commended as heroes and saints. Even our most acclaimed cultural and historical figures - such as Washington, Lincoln, and FDR - have undergone this process. It sounds vaguely Swiftian, but I don't recall Swift ever going quite as far as this.

Thanks once again for your help! MelancholyDanish (talk) 06:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)MelancholyDanish

Social Darwinism? and the relentless publicity machine, PR (aka history)– usually commandeered by the victors. my bad, you were looking for a philosopher who raised the idea... apols  ; ) Julia Rossi (talk) 09:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

First thought that came to mind was Max Weber's disctinction of ethics of responsibility ("Verantwortungsethik") and ethics of conviction ("Gesinnungsethik") in Politics as a Vocation. But I believe similar thoughts can also be found in Nietzsche's On the Genealogy of Morality and all the way back to Machiavelli's thoughts on Agathocles. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Hannah Arendt talked of the "banality of evil" in relation to Eichmann. Might she have had something to say about this question? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Conquest of the Desert and the 1982 war for the Islas Malvinas (Falklands)

In what way precise way did Argentina's nineteenth century Conquest of the Desert lead to the later dispute with Britain over these islands? I have more in mind here than simple geographic proximity. TheLostPrince (talk) 06:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Argentina only claims sovereignty on the Falkland Islands on geographical grounds (the islands are located on the Patagonia's continental shelf, see: Argentine Sea). The Patagonia became a part of Argentina after the Conquest of the Desert, so if this hadn't taken place Patagonia would either be independent or it would belong to any of the other countries that were interested in the region (France, Spain, UK) and Argentina would have never fought against Britain. Hope this helps. --Yamanbaiia 16:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

According to Falkland Islands, Argentina has claimed the islands since independence on the basis of prior Spanish claims. Is this incorrect? Algebraist 17:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

No, because Spain was the Island's sovereign until 1811, but when the revolution broke out Spain had to move their troops, leaving the Islands unprotected. That is why Argentina's Uti possidetis claim applies, because no treaty was ever signed by Spain or Argentina.--Yamanbaiia 19:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

help plz

i m writing something on what makes life insecure ( imean the external influences) such as bomb blast, political unrest, inequality of life leading to crimes). Can anyone please provide some good sources for primary reading. and citation or anyone who has written about these things (any online essay or link).

:Just had to decap your question or you might be ignored (kidding), Julia Rossi (talk) 09:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

There's this in our article on lists of publications in sociology: social change section. Then if you really, really like reading, there's the Pierre Bourdieu article – a social scientist who talks about kinds of capital (as in what people have going for them – or not). Happy reading, Julia Rossi (talk) 09:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Things People Have Crossed Canada In

Alright. I know Terry Fox ran across canada. I know Rick Hansen wheelchaired across canada. Some woman went paddling across it. Is there a list somewhere of Things People Have Crossed Canada In For Charity? 24.69.167.145 (talk) 08:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Terry Fox completed about two-thirds, so I take it your list is not of people who completed the journey. There must have been early voyageurs who crossed all of known Canada by canoe. Amelia Earhart flew across part in her early aviation trips. BrainyBabe (talk) 09:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You can add walking, rollerblading, cycling, car and RV but I don't know of any existing list. WikiJedits (talk) 15:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Barbara Kingscote rode her horse Zazy across Canada in 1949 when she was 20, and much later wrote this up as Ride the Rising Wind . There's a touching review of her giving a reading here. BrainyBabe (talk) 09:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Critique of Dialectical Reason

In what way does Sartre use his existensial phenomenology to support the arguments he advances in the Critique of Dialectical Reason? F Hebert (talk) 11:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Marxism and Existentialism

Is it possible to reconcile a determinist doctrine like Marxism and the subjective forms of freedom that Sartre had promoted for most of his intellectual life? Was his attempt to do so a final surrender to intellectual dishonesty and creeping bad-faith? F Hebert (talk) 11:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

These will be on the mid-term. --Wetman (talk) 01:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If you bend them enough, you can reconcile any two doctrines.  --Lambiam 13:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

War of the Two Matildas

Hello, all good people. I need some guidance from you historians. Would it be OK for me to describe the English Anarchy of the twelfth century as the War of the Two Matildas? Thanx.

Well, Matilda of Boulogne was only involved because she happened to be Stephen's wife, so I don't think that would be the best description. I guess you can call it whatever you want in your daily life, but on Misplaced Pages you should stick to The Anarchy (unless this counts as a reliable source!). Adam Bishop (talk) 12:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

gear vehicle

Are all cars sold in developed countries non-gear automatic cars? What about truck?

Can you clarify what you mean by "non-gear automatic"? I'm not sure what specific car type you're referring to.

Regardless, the answer is almost certainly "no". Cars in the US are sold with both manual and automatic transmissions, commonly with 4 to 6 gears, and continuously variable transmissions are emerging in the market. Pickup trucks share the same options, but large trucks are predominantly fitted with manual transmissions. In any event, it is unlikely that all cars will be fitted into any such category. — Lomn 13:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, the tendency to like automatic transmissions is mainly a USA thing, for whatever reason. Americans also tend to favor ridiculously large, living-room-on-wheels type vehicles- apparently valuing sitting in comfort more than they value actual driving. We take steps to improve auto safety, but this generally involves forcing manufacturers to make heavier vehicles, rather than encouraging people to actually pay attention while driving. Our cars show this. The rest of the world tends to make fun of us for that. Friday (talk) 14:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

citation needed.

Sorry. Perhaps that was a bit soapboxy. I'm confident that the bit about automatics being way more common in the US than most of the rest of the world is factually correct, tho. Friday (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you completely, Friday. If everyone in this country had manual transmissions then they'd pay more attention to driving than phone calls, eating, applying lipstick, shaving, etc. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 15:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Wishful thinking! People in the UK still do the same thing in manual cars. I have had someone say "hang on, I need to put the phone down to change gear" - even though using a non-hands-free phoe when diriving is illegal in the UK. -- Q Chris (talk) 18:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's illegal here too, but it really isn't enforced throughly enough. I didn't see a single police car on my 30 minute drive to work this morning, but I did see scores of people yakking away on their cell phones. Anyway, the fact is that the person calling you knew that he/she had to change the gear means that they were paying more attention to the road than someone with an automatic whose frontal vision turns into peripheral vision the moment they start talking. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 18:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Automatics are rare in Europe. User:Krator (t c) 15:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

81.93.102.185 (talk) 15:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

How does anyone know people driving sticks pay more attention than those driving automatics? has this been documented? Or is it a big assumption people make? Does driving an automatic make you lazy, or do lazy, inattentive drivers tend to prefer automatics? I drive an automatic and don't talk on my cell, and try to look where I'm going most of the time. I'm not sure paying more attention to my transmission would make me a better driver. It seems like substituting one distraction for another.66.152.245.18 (talk) 20:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's one source discussing the question. And there are plenty of forum posters with personal opinions, of course. I have to imagine the insurance companies would know- they're interested in any factors that help them predict who's likely to be in an accident. That one source implies it's a wash, though. In the US, where the vast majority of cars are automatics, the manuals tend to be either economy cars or performance cars. The performance-car enthusiasts may enjoy driving more, and thus may pay more attention.. or they may be irresponsible kids taking stupid risks. I dislike cars that get you away from the feel of driving, because I think they make the driver more likely to forget he's holding a deadly weapon in his hands. But, people are capable of being inattentive in manuals, too. I think the most neutral answer is "go with what you prefer." Friday (talk) 20:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Manual transmissions are more common in other countries as petrol (gasoline) is generally much more expensive and manuals are more economical. Exxolon (talk) 00:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If the direct-shift gearbox becomes widespread, we could see automatic transmissions without torque converters, which is mostly what causes their inefficiency. And presumably automatic shift timing will also get better with technology. Right now efficiency, convenience, and performance are the biggest factors in what people decide to drive. But it's just a matter of time before technology catches up, and it will be no less efficient to drive an automatic. Then it will be purely a question of how much people prefer manual operation vs. automatic. 66.152.245.18 (talk) 17:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

From my own experience in the UK, some of the larger hire car companies provide automatics by default as they are "easier" to drive in that there is usually only one configuration (Neutral, Park, Reverse and Drive gears). Manual geared cars can have 7 gears or more depending on the make and the layout of the stick selection varies from model to model. In view of this, UK drivers can obtain an "automatic only" driving license which gives them the right to drive but prevents them from ever using a car with a manual gearbox unless they retake the full test. Historically, automatics were more expensive and seen as a "luxury" item - today a flappy paddle gearbox still is. 84.66.15.200 (talk) 06:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Whereas some off-road vehicles have "seven gears or more" (often accessed by a separate "low ratio" shift leaver and a "standard" shift lever), and some high performance sports cars have six forward gears plus reverse, almost all cars have five forward plus reverse. Some low range have only four forward plus reverse. Every car I have come across since the citroen 2cv and the early Renaults were withdrawn (early 70s?) have a standard shift pattern for the forward gears. Reverse gear can be in different places and may need a collar bellow the stick to be lifted to go into reverse, but for forward driving people expect the standard layout.

The above layout will cover any car you are likely to come across will have the above pattern, maybe with the fith gear missing and with the reverse somewhere else. See Manual transmission for details, though note that column mounted changes are almost unheard of now and sequential gearboxes are normaly only used in track-racing, not road cars. In short European drivers expect to be able to get into a manual transmission car and not have to worry about where the forward gears are. BTW for most cars automatics are still more expensive in the UK, though luxury models often have it as a "no cost" option. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Sony vs. Casio

What Phone has sold more units, the sony ericsson w580i or the casio G'Z one type-s?

Please don't post the same question on multiple desks. If somebody can find the answer, they'll provide it. --LarryMac | Talk 15:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not write to the two companies and ask? Going to the source seems like a good idea at this point. 08:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Scriabin's Sonata in E-Flat Minor (1889)

Alexander Scriabin is my favorite composer, and I enjoy playing his music on the piano. However, I have a couple recordings of people playing his 'Sonata in E-Flat Minor', and I can't seem to find the sheet music to this sonata. The work doesn't have an opus number, so that doesn't help much. It is a very interesting sonata from what I've heard in the recordings; I would love to play it myself. Does anyone know of anywhere I can buy a copy of this piece in sheet music form?

Allpianoscores has a downloadable pdf-file. It's free. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks a lot!

SS

Hi all I would like a bit of information on the SS which operated in Nazi Germany. I have read the article on the SS but found it a bit overwhelming. I have heard the SS being called a 'state within a state'. Could anyone explain to me whether this is true or not and if so, how? I realise that the SS amassed great wealth through the use of slave labour during the second world war and that they operated as a sort of army and police force. Any expansion or simple explanations of the SS and their role would be much appreiciated!

Not to be condescending, but the version at the Simple English Misplaced Pages is briefer and (obviously) more simply written and may be more of what you're looking for. -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Rubles at turn of 20th century

I'm writing a short story set around 1900, and I have a question that I can't answer (and don't really know where to look for). Approximately how much would it cost, in rubles, to travel from the western Russian empire at this time across the ocean to America (say New York)? And if you don't know but have an idea where to look, that'd be good too. Any help would be appreciated!

This is a very cool question, so I had to take a stab, but it's a huge research project for a non-expert. Still, if no expert appears, maybe this can help get you started. The first part, cost of getting from your character's starting point to Hamburg or other main port (maybe Danzig? Bremen?) I have no idea. But as for the ship crossing, here are some interesting links:

American Historical Society of Germans From Russia: Passenger Ships and Immigration Links

100 Years of Emigrant Ships from Norway: Cost of passage, Norway – America This gives you 166 Kroner from Trondheim to Boston in 1900.

New York Times, April 9, 1892. Steerage Rates Raised This gives Bremen/Hamburg – New York passage as now up to $30 from $25 in 1892. ("steerage rates" might be a fruitful google search term.)

And a couple more interesting sites that popped up Emigration From Hamburg – description of the passage, though a bit earlier than you want. And Genoelogy.com gives the contact info for two America-Russia history societies.

Happy writing :) WikiJedits (talk) 18:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The answer is on the tip of my tongue, but you might find answers in histories of Jewish emmigration. 192.117.101.209 (talk) 20:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Unreasonable and outdated dissatisfactions

Removed trolling. --Milkbreath (talk) 22:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Changing fortunes of the Nazi Party

Hi there I was wondering if anyone could help me understand how the fortunes of the Nazi party changed in their 12 years of power (1933-1945) or could recommend any books which deal with this subject. If you were wondering, this is a school assignment but I am asking for help as I have no idea about what to write. I think the defeat at Stalingrad in the second world war seems reasonable to mention as it was a change of fortune for the Nazis. If anyone could inform me of any other events which denoted a change of fortune for the Nazis or just give me some hints that would be great! Thanks.

Are you looking for the basis of the change of fortune? I can't find it just now but I have read somewhere that the current reason it is rejected is that it was deemed part of the Jewish agenda (see verse 26) to dominate the Earth and regard States and government as animals rather than as men. I'll keep looking for the reference. Multimillionaire (talk) 23:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, maybe it's a little early for me, but are you suggesting that Nazism is not in favor now because it is regarded as part of the "Jewish Agenda", which you have defined as a passage in Genesis? Because that's ridiculous, as well as ignorant. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 12:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. As a member of law enforcement I am often within earshot of members of the brotherhood of which several members have been overheard expressing the point of view that because Hitler's grandfather was a Jew there is a Jewish connection which reveals a Jewish purpose. The purpose is to dominate the Earth of which government, business and a mered of other enterprises are a mere part. Multimillionaire (talk) 13:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, in 1943 the allies started targeting their oil sources in Romania (covered a little here). It had been the Axis plan to capture Arabian oil fields to ensure a supply, but obviously that didn't work out. — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I am reasonably certain that any "brotherhood" whom you might "overhear" as a member of law enforcement, Multimillionaire, is not likley to be a relaible source for reasoned political and social histories. Wild fringe theories based on distortions and misunderstanding, deliberate or otherwise, yes; thoughtful analysis based on evidence, no. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Kublai and Genghis

Why is Kublai Khan so much more famous than Genghis Khan in America, but Genghis is more famous in Europe? Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that American culture (South Park, Citizen Kane etc) always mention Kublai Khan whereas in the UK I'd never heard of him until these references but Genghis is infamous. Thanks a lot. 90.192.223.225 (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm American. I've never heard of Kublai Khan until 2 minutes ago when I read this question. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 18:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm also American and don't think that Kublai is more famous than Genghis here. Both are covered in world history school textbooks. Kublai might get a little more attention because Marco Polo claimed to have met him and because Kublai was also emperor of China. (I may be old, but not old enough to have met Kublai Khan!) Marco polo (talk) 18:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Marco Polo may also get relatively more attention in American textbooks because he's treated as a predecessor to Columbus.--Pharos (talk) 19:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Kublai Khan is almost certainly not better known than Genghis Khan in America. To the extent that Kublai Khan may be relatively more popular than in Europe, I would put that down to Xanadu in Citizen Kane, which was of course inspired by "Kubla Khan" by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. I imagine that Kublai Khan may also be more relatively popular in Britain than in the rest of Europe because of the Coleridge poem.--Pharos (talk) 19:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Another American who thinks Genghis is more famous than Kublai.--droptone (talk) 19:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The questioner is probably thinking of What Would Brian Boitano Do?, which mentions Kublai Khan, but I believe that is only because it is such a bizarre reference. Referencing Genghis would have fit the meter as well, but it wouldn't had the same bizarre effect, since everyone knows who Genghis Khan is. In popular culture, he was the leader of the Mongols in the original Civilization, and my favourite, John Wayne played him in a movie. Adam Bishop 01:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Is that where he said "Truly this is the son of Genghis!"?  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 03:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Haha, that reminds me of an anecdote I once read - Wayne was directed to give that line "more awe", and on the next take he said "Awwww, truly this is the son of God!" Adam Bishop (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I hate to ruin a joke but I have to report that that anecdote was slightly fictitious. The "Truly this was the Son a Gaaad" quote is a real quote, but it comes from the 1965 movie The Greatest Story Ever Told, in which John Wayne is in a brief cameo role (all of 3 seconds) as a Roman centurion at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. He's shown in darkness and facing away from the camera, silhouetted against the sunset with his cape waving in the breeze. He's only recognisable by his unmistakeable voice. The Conqueror was made 9 years earlier, in 1956. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I know, I thought we were referring to Greatest Story now. (And the anecdote came from "Movie Anecdotes" or some other book of apocrypha.) Adam Bishop (talk) 00:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Authorship and publication of Misplaced Pages

Who wrote the Wikepedia? Also, when was is publihed?

Volunteers wrote wikipedia anoymously and continue to edit it constantly; it's not been published in any real form. Kuronue | Talk 01:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that people asking this question are usually trying to fill out bibliographical citations. If that's your purpose, see Misplaced Pages:Citing Misplaced Pages. Jwrosenzweig (talk) 04:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

In English law, Misplaced Pages is certainly published and is an "electronic publication" of the Wikimedia Foundation. There's no answer to 'When was published?' - but you can of course establish when particular statements or words in it were published. Xn4 09:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland: Income tax liability for actors

I have checked Taxation in the Republic of Ireland and also read the material produced at the government website, as linked at the bottom of the WP article. Writers, painters, sculptors can be exempt from paying income tax in the Republic of Ireland, providing the work they do is "creative". (There are other qualifiers and distinctions, too, but this is enough for a lead-in to the question.) Does anyone know if musicians and/or actors, full-time or part-time, receive any taxation exemption or reduction based on their earnings in these fields. (I know it is possible that they may not pay taxes because of the limited amount they earn.) ៛ Bielle (talk) 19:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

stores in history

Before Auto Zone, Meineke, Pep Boys, and many other auto parts stores, there was Grand Auto. Before there was Home Depot and Lowe's, there was this home improvement store called J. Borg & Company. Whatever happened to them? Anyone know?72.229.136.18 (talk) 21:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Pep Boys has been around for quite a long time; the article indicates that the first store opened in 1921. In general, however, before large nationwide chains of any type, there were more local or perhaps regional operations. I'm not personally familiar with Grand Auto or J. Borg, where were these stores located? --LarryMac | Talk 21:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

J. Borg & Co. and Grand Auto were located in the San Francisco Bay Area, as far as I know.72.229.136.18 (talk) 03:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

H Donald Smith

What was her given name? - Kittybrewster ☎ 21:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

According to the National Portrait Gallery website , it is "Helen". The NPG -and ArtPrice- hyphenates the last two names as "Helen Donald-Smith". ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I see this information is now in the renamed Helen Donald-Smith article. You are quite welcome. ៛ Bielle (talk) 19:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

A painting by Picasso of Modigliani

Hello, Humanities. I am in desperate need of a good picture of Picasso's painting of Modigliani. In particular, the one in cubist style, made not long before Modigliani passed away. It is a portrait of Modigliani, taller than it is wide, I can only guess it is entitled "Modigliani". I would be much obliged for your help on the matter! 81.93.102.185 (talk) 22:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

PS. It was shown in the movie about Modigliani, as part of the exhibition contest. 81.93.102.185 (talk) 22:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen the movie and can't trace the painting. I wonder, could you be thinking of Modigliani's portrait of Picasso (1915)? Xn4 08:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This is the OP. No, this would not be the painting I had in mind. It follows closely the style of Picasso and Braque's cubism, that which Picasso used around 1910-1912. Indeed, see for what is, stylistically, very close to "Modigliani" by Pablo Picasso. Edited for tildes and addition: I wonder if the picture is in private ownership by the Modigliani family. 213.161.190.228 (talk) 09:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure this is not a fictional portrait, sprouting from the fantasy of the filmmakers to spice up the film's largely fictional story?  --Lambiam 17:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

undent^. I've researched the movie further. It actually states that these works (Mexico, the Madness, Modigliani, all the pieces for the competition) are not real. Absolutely bummed about this. A good discussion actually follows here, on Imdb, from which I intend to pursue the hunt for the picture. Thank you for your replies! 81.93.102.185 (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Strories set in the Deep South

Is there any stories set in the Deep South, like Forrest Gump?

The Heart is a Lonely Hunter set in the deep South yes, like Forrest Gump, no. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

John Ball's In the Heat of the Night and Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird come to mind, not to mention Margaret Mitchell's Gone with the Wind. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Song of the South? Exxolon (talk) 00:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh my lawd. That is the epitome of historical inaccuracy. bibliomaniac15 Hey you! Stop lazing around and help fix this article instead! 01:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You'll be interested in the genre Southern literature.--Wetman (talk) 01:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't fret, Bibliomaniac. The OP didn't ask for an accurate picture of the deep South, just a book set there. 01:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

For more current reading, there is James Lee Burke's Dave Robichaux novels set in and around New Orleans and the bayou country, and those by Virginia Lanier with the bloodhound theme. ៛ Bielle (talk) 01:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

William Faulkner is an noble prize winning American genuis whose works focused on early 20th century Deep south. Plus, Mark Twain, Ernest Hemmingway, Tenessee Williams, Truman Capote. Those are some truly big ones. 68.229.113.142 (talk) 02:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil is another well-known one. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What about John Grisham? Adam Bishop (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Pulitzer Prize: The Yearling. Non PP: The Black Stallion's Ghost. And that female forensic pathologist who keeps digging up corpses. Atmospheric. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My Dog Skip and Good Old Boy: A Delta Boyhood by Willie Morris are honorable mentions.72.229.136.18 (talk) 06:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That female pathologist is Kathy Reichs, but, although much of her work is set in North Carolina, some of it is set in Montreal, as well. Corvus cornix_talk 18:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Montreal is in Latin America, after all. The weather may differ from Tennesseee, but the Confederate flag is seen as a decoration. BrainyBabe (talk) 01:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Bill Bryson's The Lost Continent is partly set in the deep south.HS7 (talk) 21:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

March 26

legal age for...

I read the archived question about the "legal drinking age" and I was wondering a few things.

1.)being that the legal buying age is 21, if you're 21st is on sunday and you want to buy liquor the day before. Are you allowed?

2.) has anyone read/heard of any specific laws in the state of virginia that are irregular of other drinking laws in the rest of the united states. if so, help!?! I've been looking for them online and can't find them.

3.) establishments, once again in virginia, that have a 21+ policy for entering do so at their own will, right? it isn't illegal to have someone that is under 21 in a bar. it's illegal to serve and/or have someone intoxicated in said bar, correct?

4.) since the zero tolerance law was made, I was also pulled over and given an under-aged possession charge. I have court on the day before my 21st birthday (next week). the initial reason for being pulled over wasn't stated until the officer first gave the car a once over, then was able to find an expired sticker on the license plate. 1.) I did allow him to give me a breathalyzer test because I didn't think that he'd ticket me (he did). I blew under the legal limit for being ticketed for a DUI, however he decided to ticket me for under-aged possession.

1.) if I hadn't consented, what would have happened? 2.) even though I did, drinking wasn't the initial reason for my being pulled over as the officer told me that I was driving just fine. 3.) is there a way to get out of this without having to hire a lawyer and/or do ASAP and community service?

71.63.38.230 (talk) 00:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Cimmaron

We don't give legal advice. Find more trustworthy hands to place yourself in, guy. Wrad (talk) 00:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

We don’t give legal ADVICE here. We do answer legal questions, which is what 1, 2, and 3 are. The last two we can’t help with however. --S.dedalus (talk) 01:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The answer to #1 is definitely no. I wonder if maybe you're referring to areas with blue laws, where it wouldn't be possible to buy alcohol on the Sunday itself, but I would still say the answer is certainly no. -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that question 1 is related to the longstanding American common law principle that "a person attains a given age on the day before his corresponding birthday". So actually, it probably would be legal for you to buy alcohol the day before, but you might get to court before you meet anyone else who knows that. FiggyBee (talk) 06:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, those born on 29 February have a modest head start, as many systems of law deem their birthday in non-leap years to be 28 February. Xn4 08:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Mexicans in the US

Of the Mexican population in the US, how much of them are immigrants and how much are autochthonous of some annexed territory? Mr.K. (talk) 02:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• I don't have the numbers on hand, but I believe the majority of Mexican Americans are neither, that the largest group is probably children and grandchildren of immigrants.--Pharos (talk) 02:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes, of course. There is still this possibility. It sounds quite plausible, by the way. Mr.K. (talk) 04:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As for "autochthonous of some annexed territory", there were only a few areas populated by a relatively large number of Spanish speakers ca. 1836-1853 and included in the territories annexed by the U.S. -- mainly the city of San Antonio, the Rio Grande valley in south Texas, and northern New Mexico. I would doubt whether in 1848 most ancestors of most current-day Mexican-Americans were then living north of what is now the U.S.-Mexico border . AnonMoos (talk) 06:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I would also point out that, in New Mexico at least, the descendants of people who lived there before it was annexed by the United States do not identify and, I think, are not usually classified as Mexican or Mexican American. These people may be considered Latino or Hispanic. They typically identify as New Mexican or Spanish-American, but usually not as Mexican. In the views of many, they are no more Mexican than the Anglo-Americans are English nor than the Quebecois are French. Their ancestors were subjects of Mexico well over a hundred years ago, and then only at the periphery of Mexico and only for a couple of decades (after Mexico's independence from Spain). Marco polo (talk) 20:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Folk illnesses

I think this is more culture than science so I posted it here. Are there any other folk illnesses that only a certain culture gets, just curious? For example, it seems that only Filipinos suffer from Pasma while Bangungot sufferers seem to be concentrated in Japan, Thailand and the Philippines. --Lenticel 05:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Sickle cell is much more prevalent in sub-Saharan African and African-American populations than in the rest of the world's population, and Tay-Sachs disease is similarly overrepresented among Jews of Eastern European descent. Neither is 100% unique to those cultures, though, although there are certainly strong cultural connections between those groups and those diseases. -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

IANAD, but I am quite sure the question was about folk illnesses (specific medical conditions recognized by traditional medicine of the respective culture, but not by the modern medicine), and not about genetic disorders. Both Tay-Sachs and sickle-cell anemia are recessive genetic disorders, so two copies of the gene involved must be defective for the symptoms to emerge. Obviously, prevalence of marriages within a given culture or community increases the chance of this happening. As for non-genetic culture-specific illnesses of unclear etiology, there are conditions that are known from written tradition (like tzaraath) or historical texts (like Sudor anglicus) but not diagnosed as such by modern medicine. There are also conditions attributed by folk medicine to evil spirits or influences; these are religion- and culture-specific, of course. Please also note that we have a short article on Folk Illness that seems to stress the latter aspect. IANAD, so I will not expand it. Is there a doctor in the audience? Our article needs help! ;) . Cheers, --Dr Dima (talk) 07:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Zombies only exist in Haiti and its diaspora, because (some) Haitians believe in them. Similar chemical reactions in Japan are put down to the neurotoxic fugu fish. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to you both. --Lenticel 08:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

How about Fan death? APL (talk) 13:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

How about the article on this subject: Culture-bound syndrome? --— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 19:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Amok could be included in this list? Ninebucks (talk) 03:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Windows

When were glass windows invented? --Carnildo (talk) 06:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

According to Guns, Germs and Steel (through Google Books), the Romans invented them around 1 AD. Beyond that I'm not even sure where to start looking for info. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

See Fleming, S. J., Roman Glass: reflections on cultural change (Philadelphia, 1999). He also dates the first glass window panes to the reign of Augustus and says they were contemporaneous with the first glass tiles. Xn4 08:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

...but in fifteenth-century England glazed frames were still so precious and rare that they were removed when not needed, and were inventoried (this is how we know) as part of a room's (re)moveable furniture. Penelope Eames in an early volume of Furniture History: the Journal of the Furniture History Society.--Wetman (talk) 22:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The Don Flows Home to the Sea

How accurate is Sholokhov's depiction of the Don Cossacks and their role in the Russian Civil War in his novel? Is there significant political bias? Yermolov (talk) 06:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Sholokhov's depiction of the Don Cossacks is amazing. He grew up in the Vyoshenskaya Stanitsa and most of the characters are based on people that he knew and who had fought in the Civil War. There is also no better depiction of the Vyoshenskaya uprising. He managed to show not only what they were fighting for, but also their indecision and rivalries. I lived in the Don region for a while and all the Cossacks I've met raved about the book. It's suprising how sympatheticaly they were portrayed for Soviet times. AllenHansen (talk) 12:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it true that the best Guillotine blades were made by Gillette???

Or is that just marketing?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.28.76 (talk • contribs)

Please sign future edits but typing four tildes (~~~~) after your post. Where on earth did you hear that? The Company Gillette is named after King C. Gillette! = ) --Cameron (t/c) 11:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You mean Gillette, the company founded in 1901? In the article on the Guillotine, it does mention that device was used for execution after 1901, but a Google search of Gillette +guillotine does not return any worthwhile results.--droptone (talk) 11:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The Gillette Company was named after its founder, King Camp Gillette, an American who invented an inexpensive disposable blade for the safety razor in the late 19th century. The guillotine was named after Dr. Joseph-Ignace Guillotin, a professor of anatomy at the facility of medicine in Paris, who proposed in 1789 that death sentences be executed by decapitation, employing "a machine that beheads painlessly". The blades made by The Gillette Company were very thin and quite unsuitable for decapitational use. There is no relation between the two.  --Lambiam 17:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No and no. It could hardly be called marketing anyway. A bit like saying that the best weapons of mass destruction are made by General Atomics.--Shantavira| 17:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Mulatto - White and Black perspectives

Moved meta-discussion to talk page. -- APL (talk) 22:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Question about Niger

How does Niger regulate its imports? (Barnstar for a speedy reply!) Scarian 17:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's a list of import prohibitions.--Pharos (talk) 23:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The relevant authority would I think be the "Agence Nationale de Vérification de Conformité aux Normes (AVCN)", in English the "National Agency for Compliance Inspection". It's discussed here on a government website and this page has a brief description in English.--Pharos (talk) 23:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Kant's Categorical Imperative

Hi all read the article on the Categorical Imperative but one aspect of it is a bit too complex for me! I tried looking at it in simple English but that article doesn't describe any of the maxims and is really short. My question is, what does the third maxim 'Live in a Kingdom of ends' mean? Can anyone explain it simply please? I'm not that bright :( I-need-a-name-which-hasn't-been-taken-even-that-has-been-taken! (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

See Kingdom of Ends. IIRC, Kant believes you should always treat someone as an end, never as a means to an end; or in other words treat people in a way that could be made a universalizable principle. The Kingdom of Ends is the hypothetical state when people treat each other according to this maxim. 66.152.245.18 (talk) 19:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Marriage in the Canterbury Tales

The theme of power in marriage is the dominant theme in the Wife of Bath's Tale. Is this typical of Chaucer's view and can it be illustrated elsewhere in the Tales? Alisoun of Bath (talk) 19:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The best, and funnest, way to find out is by comparing the various stories!! AllenHansen (talk) 19:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The Clerk's Tale. Wrad (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Chaucer's Politics

Is anything known of Chaucer's political views? How did he respond, for example, to the Peasants' Revolt of 1381? Alisoun of Bath (talk) 19:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that his response to the revolt was recorded, but as a member of the near-elite and as a royal office holder, one would expect him to have been strongly opposed to the revolt. Marco polo (talk) 20:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

He mentions Wat Tyler in one of the Canterbury Tales. I forget which one... Wrad (talk) 20:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

not by name, according to searches I've done in TCT on Project Gutenberg and eChaucer. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's more subtle than that. I believe it's a pun on Wat/what or something. Wrad (talk) 23:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Found it. It's in the Nun's Priest's Tale and it's Jack Straw, not Wat Tyler. Sorry about that. Wrad (talk) 23:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I found this, doing a search for Chaucer's politics on google - "For work on political engagement, or the lack thereof, in Chaucer's life, see S. Sanderlin, "Chaucer and Ricardian Politics," Chaucer Review 22 (1988), 171-84, and Paul Strohm, "Politics and Poetics: Usk and Chaucer in the 1380s," in Literarv Practice and Social Change in Britain, 1380-1530, ed. Lee Patterson (Berkeley, 1990), pp. 83-112. Strohm's comparison with Usk is particularly illuminating, as it shows how Chaucer does not write for an explicit political purpose, as Usk does routinely. In this view, while Chaucer's politics may be reflected in his poetics, particularly in a constant emphasis on dialogue and plurality, he differs fundamentally from a poet like Usk who understands writing as a political tool." --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Land Usage in U.S.

I am looking for information about what percentage of land in each of the U.S. states is used for various purposes, particularly farming. E.g., what percentage of the land in Ohio is farmland? (Absolute acreage is fine, too; I can divide.) Bipsbop (talk) 22:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As in all things, google is your friend, turning up such sites as Land Use in the United States. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Bipsbop (talk) 23:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Agitate. Agitate, Agitate!

Frederick Douglass famously recommended this tactic for social change: Agitate!

In fact T-shirts are sold under this banner. I am perhaps daft but can not find any reference to his statement in the article. Adaptron (talk) 23:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The article has a quote "Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters." I can only guess that the factette has either been edited out of what is a long article, or has not yet made it in. The beauty of wikipedia is that, if you're informed on the subject, you can amend the article to include it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It's probably unnecessary to be included since it so well known. Anyone reading the article probably has already heard it. My only reason for wanting to include it and at the very top of the page is that it appears to be the most quoted saying and political position or direction attributed to him. It just strikes me as strange that it is not already there. Adaptron (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I would strongly disagree with that. I have heard of Frederick Douglass but I had never once heard of that quote before this question. Not everyone reading Misplaced Pages is a United States resident. Not every American reading Misplaced Pages is a university graduate. If it's well-known and attributed, it should be in his article. --NellieBly (talk) 14:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm an American and a university graduate, and I'd never heard that quote before.  :) Corvus cornix_talk 18:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Tagishsimon's quote is from Douglass's West India Emancipation Speech held in 1857. The famous "Agitate, agitate, agitate" is not a direct quote from any speech or text published by Douglass, but it is purported that he said this in 1895, decades after the West India Emancipation Speech but much in its spirit, in reply to a young student seeking his advice. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Where might I find both historical and recent commentary in regard to this advice, especially in connection with such events as the murder of Eve Carson. Adaptron (talk) 02:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

How is the murder of Eve Carson remotely connected with this topic?--droptone (talk) 11:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Lovette's comment? Adaptron (talk) 12:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

What comments? I cannot find any relevant comments.--droptone (talk) 12:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It may be a comment from Black Panther, Mumia Abu-Jamal.

Well, I can't help you on the murder of Eve Carson, but I did search for some more information on the quote.

Most online articles I found went with the student story, with variations in tonality: "When asked shortly before his death in 1895 what advice he would give to a young black starting out in life, Douglass replied firmly: "Agitate! Agitate! Agitate!" . A book review uses the passive voice: "Shortly before his death, abolitionist Frederick Douglass (1818-1895) was asked what course black youths should follow in the face of continuing racism in this country. He replied, "Agitate! Agitate! Agitate!" . The Public Interest had "Douglass continued till the end to act on the advice he is said to have given to a young man inquiring what he should do for his people: "agitate, agitate, agitate." Here he "urged a black student to "Agitate! Agitate! Agitate!"] and here he "whispered" it "to a young follower".

But I also found this in The World & I: "Agitate, agitate, agitate!" With these words, Frederick Douglass exhorted a woman's suffrage meeting on February 20, 1895. After returning to Cedar Hill, he was dramatizing his speech to his second wife, Helen, when he suffered a fatal heart attack. It was just a week past his seventy-seventh birthday, or maybe it was his seventy-eighth. He wasn't quite sure." . ---Sluzzelin talk 12:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Though i can't put an exact date to the slogan, it may have been borrowed from Daniel O'Connell's "three things I urge upon you, sons of Ireland: agitate, agitate, agitate!"—eric 16:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Would "borrowing" be called plagiarism in todays political climate? Adaptron (talk) 17:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

(Response to eric, not to Adaptron's queston which was inserted here later) That sounds very likely, see also a question from last June (and particularly Clio_the_Muse's answer) for the Douglass-O'Connell connection. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The phrase might have been suggested to O'Connell by a December 1828 letter from Henry Paget: "If you really expect success, agitate, agitate, agitate." The letter seems to have caused the then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland a bit of trouble with his government, our article states it led to his recall.—eric 17:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

March 27

A war between Japan and China, 1880-83?

I have discovered one line in a book which confuses me. The book is Love of the Samurai : a thousand years of Japanese homosexuality by Tsuneo Watanabe and Jun'ichi Iwata, the original Japanese of Iwata translated into French by Watanabe, and the whole thing translated from French to English by D. R. Roberts. The line, on pg. 122, is in a quoted paragraph, the citation of which reads:

Cited in Das Geschlechtsleben in Glauben, Sitte, Brauch und Gewohnheitsrecht der Japaner by Friedrich S. Krauss, Leipzig, 1910.

The line I am bothered by reads:

We can say, in fact, that in the homosexual liaison too, the old samurai spirit found exultant expression on the Manchu front (in the 1880-83 war between Japan and China), in a way that one would not have seen before 1868.

I have never heard of such a war. Did anything of the sort ever occur? Or is this just simply confusion on the part of Krauss, getting the dates of the First Sino-Japanese War mixed up? If so, though, I am surprised that Watanabe would not have added something along the lines of "" in the paragraph, and it surprises me that he would be so far, and to think that the war went on about twice as long as it really did. Could this have been simply a minor conflict?

I am a bit confused.

It ain't much, but this link offers the suggestion of conflict between Japan and China closer to the time you mention...1882-1885 in Korea. Given the reference to the "Manchu front", which I take to refer to Manchuria and therefore the Chinese border with Korea, I think this likely the referenced conflict. Brief mention of this conflict, at least the skirmishes in 1884, are available early in the First Sino-Japanese War article. Sorry I can't do better. --User:Jwrosenzweig editing as 71.231.197.110 (talk) 06:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Japan and Qing China were in constant conflict from the 1870s. In 1874, Japan made an incursion into Taiwan (Qing territory), meeting virtually no resistance, with the result of reparations paid by China. In 1875, Japan invaded Ryukyu (Qing vassal), with the Qing government refusing to send troops despite pleading by the Ryukyuans, with the result of Japanese annexation of Ryukyu in 1879. Also in 1875, Japan invaded Korea (Qing vassal), meeting little resistance and resulting in a treaty which proclaimed Korea's independence and autonomy from China, and the equal status of Korea and Japan.

In 1882, soldiers in the Korean capital revolted, mainly over unequal treatment of "new" (i.e. modern arms and training) and "old" troops. Japanese interests were attacked because Japan was intimately involved in the modernising attempts of the Korean regime. Korean ministers in Beijing requested Chinese help, which arrived in the form of an expeditionary force led by Yuan Shikai (later President and briefly self-crowned Emperor of China). Yuan quelled the rebellion, negotiated a treaty on behalf of Korea with Japan, and quickly became the power behind the throne, until the Japanese invasion of Korea in earnest from 1895.

My guess is that the 1880-1883 reference is an erroneous reference to the first Sino-Japanese war. There is a possibility that it refers to the Korean rebellion of 1882, but China was not really at war with Japan in that conflict. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

info on an artist

i have a small sculpture ( about 10 inches high and 12 inches long) it is of a roman soldier in a chariot with his helmet in his hand (maybe saluting the emperor). it also has two horses pulling the chariot. it is made of white marble, i think. there is a name on the base A. Giannetti. i was wondering if you had any info on this artist. i have tried for many months to find something and have not been successful. i have tried google,yahoo,and several libraries. i have even contacted the art department at both of our local colleges. no one seems to know anything about this artist. any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.194.37.231 (talk • contribs)

Hmmm, I immediately got results through Google with the search ""a. Giannetti" sculptor" and narrowed those results down by taking out a U.S. senator named John A. Giannetti and a dermatologist (here's the Google search I used): this appears to be a sculpture by the same artist being auctioned at a French gallery (you could call to ask); this is a different person inquiring about a sculpture they have, also seeking information; this page shows that there was at one time a horse statue by this artist being sold on ebay; here's an item being sold as a replica of a sculpture by this artist on ebay UK; and all this is from looking at just the first 60 results out of 187 unique hits.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

George Washington,Did he have investments in British Banks?

A friend of mine claims that G.W. had investments in British and European banks during revolutionary war.This was in case of an American defeat.I contend that G.W.(and other founding fathers) may have been hung if the Americans were defeated.Any savings or deposits surely would have been confiscated at the beginning of the war. Who is correct my friend or I? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.183.51.44 (talk) 03:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that he had a lot of loose liquid assets to be investing anywhere; he was a somewhat wealthy man after his marriage, but most of it was tied up in plantation land and slaves on the plantation land... AnonMoos (talk) 05:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I understood that his Great Grandfather was born in England and elements of his family would certainly have British Investments at that time. Possibly some of this remained and became his by inheritance rather than deliberate investments by George Washington personally.JonM267 (talk) 18:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Commonwealth war graves during WW2

How were these treated by the Germans after their occupation of Belgium and France? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wicky Witch (talk • contribs) 06:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you talking about the British Commonwealth? This only came into being after WWII. --ChokinBako (talk) 05:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

So an anacronism (and in any case you're wrong; the British Commonwealth officially came into being in 1926). I imagine the OP is talking about British and allied WWI graves in France (and I imagine the answer is that they didn't even think about them; why would they?). FiggyBee (talk) 05:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Centurion

I have an authentic heirloom, which is a roman centurion helmet, or head dress, how much would this be worth if I were to sell it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 13:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

However much a buyer is willing to pay for it. AnonMoos (talk) 14:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It's also probably not authentic... Adam Bishop (talk) 15:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

He said it is an authentic heirloom, not an authentic centurion helmet. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 16:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, oops :) Adam Bishop (talk) 00:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Its value will depend very much on its condition, materials, quality, age, rarity, etc etc. Try looking on eBay for similar products and see what sort of price they are fetching, or take it to an antique shop and ask.--Shantavira| 17:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If it is actually an authentic roman centurion helmet, you'd be better taking it to Christie's or Southerby's and not putting it on e-Bay. --ChokinBako (talk) 05:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Against the Ustase

I would be interested to know why and to what extent the Italians co-operated with the Chetniks against the Ustase in the Second World War. 217.44.78.6 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Shia majority

Besides Iran, is there any Muslim country whose state religion is Shi'a Islam? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 15:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Our article on Shia Islam indicates that (apart from Iran and a sizeable part of Iraq) Azerbaijan is predominantly Shiite. The split given in the article on the country is 85% Shiites and 15% Sunnites. If Islam is defined as a state religion I could not find out. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.azerb.com/az-reli.html says, "In the sixteenth century, the first shah of the Safavid Dynasty, Ismail I (r. 1486-1524), established Shia Islam as the state religion, although large numbers of Azeris remained followers of the other branch of Islam, Sunni." The current situation is described as "Article 18 of the Azeri constitution, mandating no state religion, allows for all faiths to practice their religion freely."

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There is also our article on state religion, which has a map indicating that Iran is the sole country which has established Shia Islam as the state religion. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The state religion of Egypt used to be Shi'ism...but that was 800 years ago... Adam Bishop (talk) 07:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

US Medal of Honour

I have recently read that a British Special Forces NCO from the SBS was awarded the US Medal of Honour. I understand this related to an action in Afghanistan where his patrol went to the location of a prison breakout saving the lives of US military and CIA personnel. I did not think that this decoration could be awarded to non-US service personnel. Is this possible?JonM267 (talk) 16:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Our article on the Medal of Honor (note the spelling - it's a proper name so it should be spelled without the "u") says that only members of the US military are eligible. Do you remember the person's name? --NellieBly (talk) 16:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Our list of Medal of Honor recipients makes it pretty clear that this is not the case. There are, however, a few awards of a more flexible nature with similar names to them. That could be what was awarded in this case. — Lomn 18:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the incorrect spelling (being British I tend to fall into the error of typing in English). Mistake noted. The event in question was in Afghanistan, 2001, at Qala-i-Jangi fort. The NCO was a member of the Special Boat Service (similar to US Navy SEAL personnel). His eam of 6 was by pure coincidence en-route from a patrol and were the closest support available. Prisoners broke out and captured armoury but contained within the compound. US Personnel either killed or pinned down. SBS team scaled outer wall and gave covering fire whilst NCO went over wall to carry out injured CIA officer. At that time the SBS were operating under direct US Command. Event was reported in The Times (London). However as no member of the SAS or SBS have ever been awarded the Victoria Cross (generally due to lack of witnesses) I would assume the report of the award was in error.JonM267 (talk) 18:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This obituary for Sergeant 'Scruff' McGough - who appears to be the soldier in question - from the Daily Telegraph of 24 July 2006 would seem to make it clear that whilst it was rumoured that a Medal of Honor was to be awarded, this did not in fact happen. (Found by Googling "Medal of Honor SBS"). Valiantis (talk) 01:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've just noticed that the above obituary is quoted as a reference in the Special Boat Service article. Valiantis (talk) 01:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I searched on "medal" plus the name of the battle, and the top hits I found gave the sergeant's name as Paul McGeogh. This includes an obituary in the Sun that also claims he receives the medal, as well as several other sites. But of course the Telegraph is a more credible source, so I guess McGough is the right spelling. The confusion may arise because, I also find, there is an Australian war reporter named Paul McGeogh.

On this British Army web page a Sergeant Paul McGough, retired from the Royal Marins (not SBS) is identified as receiving some sort of honor; it's not clear to me if that's the same man.

The SBS has its own web site (bizarrely placed under .co.uk instead of .mod.uk), and this page on the site about the battle says that "the SBS team leader was put up to be awarded" the (so-called) Congressional Medal of Honor, but "the then UK Secretary Of Defence, Jeff Hoon, quashed the nomination for undisclosed reasons." --Anonymous, 02:19 UTC, March 28, 2008.

It's not bizarre at all - that website is "not affiliated with or endorsed by the SBS". FiggyBee (talk) 02:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Economy and outsourcing

How is recession to do with outsourcing?

Officially the United States is not yet in a recession, I believe, but I assume you mean the recession many economists are predicting for the US at the moment. The answer is that it doesn't have very much to do with outsourcing, but is mainly caused by the crisis in the financial sector. It is difficult for companies to find investors, who are worried about all the bad loans around (especially because of the subprime mortgage crisis, during which apparently safe securities often turn out to be extremely risky after all). As a result overall economic activity may decline: a recession. DAVID ŠENEK 18:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The only arguable (very arguable) effect could be the result of a completely collapsed dollar value - which nobody is predicting. If, for example, every country we outsource to had a huge upswing in their economy and the our money became so devalued that it was below theirs, it would not be profitable to outsource because it would cost more to pay foreign workers to do the same job. Also, other countries would look at our country as a good country to outsource to. Since the chance of this happening is about 0.00%, it is ridiculous to suggest that there is some relation between outsourcing and a recession. -- kainaw™ 20:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Native Indian population of Americas

Of the total 900 million population of North and south America, how much is Native Indian population(excluding people from the south Asian country India). If some native Indian has married a white and have a child, lets calculate that child as 0.5 population. Calculating like that, what would be the population... any idea...?

Best I can find in a quick search is this page from the International Labour Organization which gives a *1990* figure of 41,977,600. The number today could be higher. (For example, that page estimates 350,000 in Canada, while the latest Canadian census says 1.2 million.)

The UN says worldwide there are about 300 million indigenous peoples living in more than 70 countries and 70 per cent live in Asia. So your number will fall somewhere between 42 and 90 million, I reckon.

P.S. You may find that your definition of indigenous is unlikely to be the same as that used by official census-takers, and the definition of indigenous varies from census to census anyway. WikiJedits (talk) 18:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Working out to decimal places the "mixed bloodedness" of a person would very often prove impossible -- there have been non-natives (not just "whites") in the Americas for over 500 years. You're not going to be able to find complete records with the kind of detail you are asking for. Pfly (talk) 23:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps DNA group studies (like the The Genographic Project) will be able answer this more precisely in the future. We'll never know for sure about the "mixed bloodedness" of many historic individuals—no one can say with certainty how much European ancestry, if any, guys like Tecumseh or Joseph Brant or Little Turtle had—but perhaps we'll get a better overall picture of North American ancestry eventually. —Kevin Myers 01:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Arts and Crafts

I was at a meeting the other day and had heard of a new Arts and Crafts discipline. I did not get the correct spelling, but phonetically it sounded like "emagaroomi". I know I butchered the spelling, but I'm trying to do some research on this. Anything would help.

Thanks Aphs81 (talk) 19:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Macrame, maybe, pronounced MACK-ruh-may. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Macaroni is the ancient Etruscan craft of knitting with oodles of noodles.  :) --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Amigurumi, I'll wager. Deor (talk) 22:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Religion

are there any religions whos religious mythology, or particularly, dieties, came into direct contradiction with (scientific) understanding of the world and suffered massive credibility loss, or do they all adapt quicker than this can occur? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.159.69.149 (talk) 19:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

To the extent that the drift to secularism arises out of an inability to swallow faith-based explanations of natural phenomena, all religions suffer in this respect. Specific issues, such as the roman catholic views on condoms in the context of the prevalence of HIV, illustrate times when arguably the church has moved insufficiently fast to stem further credibility losses. But I cannot think of a religion which crashed and burned as a result of the uptake of scientific notions. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Many people would doubt the science rather than their religion.  --Lambiam 22:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I never doubt my religion. Atheism is infallible. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Atheism is NOT a religion! --S.dedalus (talk) 07:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Nothing is infallible. Except, in theory, God. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

My computer is an Atheist but admits that it is possible God is infallible since God can reduce more variables having more states to minimum form in less time; an infinite number of variables and states in an instant of time to be exact. 71.100.7.155 (talk) 01:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Religion is an umbrella term denoting the worship of k Gods, where k can have the value 0, 1 or n, (in words: atheism, monotheism or polytheism).

Stating that atheism is not a religion is equivalent to pontificating that zero is not a number, nihilism is not a philosophy and atheism is an oxymoron.

Apart from that, my comment was meant to be an absurdist joke. But then, one must apparantly expect the Spanish Inquisition to monitor the WP:RD to catch the odd heretic and drag them off to the barbecue. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 08:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Kenya - sustainable development project

I'm visiting Africa especially Kenya and i would like to use some cash i have been saving to help the youth there.I'm a computer guy and i dont want to give the cash to a charitable organisation.i want to actully participate in helping the kenyans.I want My own project to create positive change in the environment. How can I foster sustainable development in a community.i know i cant change the whole country but just a few people.Something clever,something different. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.220.113.117 (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

am targeting the youth —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.220.113.117 (talk) 20:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Title added --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi 41.220, it's lateral but, illusionists Siegfried and Roy came up with a clever idea around their expertise: the College of Magic in Capetown, South Africa, for "social upliftment". There's something healing and sustaining about fun and skills combined. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You may consider supplying a school with a number of OLPC notebooks. Check http://laptop.org/ (OLPC Foundation, 
P.O. Box 425087
, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02142, 
U.S.A.) for options to participate.

That way you can also use your own expertise on your visit to Kenya. Good luck, --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Famous Canadian Color guard photograph

Hi. In this article, a scene being shot for the film State of Play is described, featuring a marching band and an orange and cream-clad color guard performing complex choreography with rifles in the background. As the article describes: " Macdonald's purpose with the band and the Color guard is to recreate a famous photograph - a Canadian photograph taken in the 1970s that featured majorettes twirling guns." My question is, of course, which "famous" photograph are they talking about? Macdonald goes on to talk about the themes which such an image represents in relation to the film, so I think it would more than qualify for fair use in the State of Play article. Thanks, Steve 22:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

March 28

scrabble replays

where can i see scrabble replays to see how the masters do it? I wonder what kinds of points they usually score per turn too... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.88.10 (talk) 00:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

big buildings in pre-Columbian America

The Aztecs, Maya, and Incas all constructed cities with very large buildings with which nothing north of Mexico compares. What factors might explain this fact? (Not an exam question... I'm 66 y.o. ;) ) --Halcatalyst (talk) 02:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Agriculture and population density. And of course there were some relatively large buildings and cities north of Mexico (described in some detail in the Mound builder (people) article). Perhaps not comparable to the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas, but impressive nonetheless. --and also mainly due to agriculture and population density. Pfly (talk) 04:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

9/11 Lawsuit

The Cantor Fitzgerald article states: On September 2, 2004, Cantor filed a civil lawsuit against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, one of a number of organizations to do so. It was later joined in the suit by the Port Authority of New York.

What was the outcome of the lawsuit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.218.4.37 (talk) 03:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

All the lawsuits against Saudi Arabia and members of the Saudi royal family got knocked on the head within a few months, because there are laws in the US that say you can't sue a foreign government. Of course, there are still appeals and wrangling and lawyers-profiting-from-tragedy-ad-nauseum going on, but no actual lawsuit has ever gotten over the first hurdle of finding a court that will hear the case. FiggyBee (talk) 03:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson

Although Bill Clinton is presumed to have only "misspoken" when he said that he did not inhale, that he did not have sexual relations with that women and that the events a Waco were Janet Reno's responsibility, did Thomas Jefferson ever make the claim that he did not commit adultery or that in his opinion adultery was not illegal or not wrong? Also, are the offspring resulting from adultery considered illegitimate in Thomas Jefferson's case? Mimus polyglottos (talk) 04:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I read an excellent biography of Jefferson two years ago. If memory serves me well, Jefferson never acknowledged the relationship. I was surprised that the situation was very public. Jefferson was far worse than an adulterer. He had absolute power over Sally Hemmings, the half-sister of his deceased wife. She could not walk away. Choice was not present. One presidential campaign revolved around this relationship. The Sally Hemmings relationship was a larger affair than the Monica Lewinsky matter. Another negative factor that affected his conduct of foreign affairs while he was president was his massive debt, owed to foreign countries. Virginia enacted a state lottery to support him shortly before his death. I was shocked when I read his biography. Elementary school taught me that he was perfect. Of course, he had wonderful traits, too. The biography was a library book so I do not have a copy here to which I can refer. 75Janice (talk) 08:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)75Janice

That's interesting. Jefferson has always been upheld as being ahead of his times, a man who had the foresight to make the Louisiana Purchase. A man who believed the way to eliminate the difference between American Indians and Whites was through interracial marriage. I probably need to read that book. Was the death of Meriwether Lewis mentioned in the book? Mimus polyglottos (talk) 10:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Irish short story

I've been trying for several days now to remember the name of an Irish short story I read a couple of years ago. It's nineteenth century I think, and concerns two old men looking for the precise location of an unmarked plot in an overcrowded church yard. Thanks for any prompts. Gifford Jnr (talk) 06:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Roger Casement's poem entitled The Nameless One

I'm trying to figure out the meaning of one part of a poem. It was written by Roger Casement some time close to 1900. Most consider this poem to point towards Casement's homosexuality. The whole poem can be found here , but I will only copy two stanzas out.

I look beyond the stricken sky

Where sunset paints its hopeless lie;

That way the flaming angel went

That sought by pride love's battlement.

I sought by love alone to go

Where God had writ an awful no.

Pride gave a guilty God to hell

I have no pride--by love I fell.

What is he trying to get at in the third and fourth line of the first stanza? Is it an allusion to Lucifer? What does he mean by "love's battlement"? In the second stanza, what is the meaning of the third line? Does it mean that one who is prideful places all guilt on God and dismisses him, as it were, to hell? I have several other ideas what the meanings could be, but I would be most appreciative if someone had other insights in to the possible meaning of these stanzas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.174.0.10 (talk) 07:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

State to first throw 500,000 men into war?

You did a great job on the last question guys. Thanks. Lotsofissues 07:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I would still go with the Achaemenid Empire :) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

State to first rule over 1 million people?

So many dates, so many states. This is my attempt to get a better idea of the span of history. Thanks guys for keeping up. Lotsofissues 08:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this question is that the population of all ancient kingdoms, empires, city states, etc. is a matter for speculation. Most of them had only a rough idea what their own populations were. Having said that, I think there's a scholarly consensus that the population of the Old Kingdom (between about 2575 and 2134 BC) was somewhere between one and two million. Perhaps there are other contenders in Asia? Xn4 08:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The first reliable population figures in Chinese history are for the Qin Dynasty (221 BC - 206 BC) which ruled over about 20 million people - though even that figure is fairly rough as it is based on a number of separate figures for various regions of the empire.

The earliest recorded population figure is for the time of Yu the Great of Xia Dynasty (about 2200 BC), which was 13 million - but this first appeared in records long after the Xia Dynasty, and so is fairly unreliable. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

philosophy

Strike-through text

bacon seems to challenge three kinds of what he calls false philosophy;"the sohistical,the emperical and the superstitious" why and how does he consider all three to corrupt philosophy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.128.0.118 (talk) 10:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

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