Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:04, 30 March 2008

Archive 1 Archive 2

Grand Panjandrum inaugurates my freshly cleaned Talk page

you moved quickly to remove any suggest that you are pulling OMs strings - sadly, from the recent posts on this page, the cat is out of the bag. Section31 --87.114.141.40 (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I am gratified to see that the first post in my fresh, clean Talk page is from a Grand Panjandrum sock. I must be doing something right. See Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day#User:Fredrick day. I wish I were pulling OMs strings. He'd not have been blocked.--Abd (talk) 14:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I am *not* filing a report on AN/I, even though this IP should be immediately blocked. Too much trouble. Not worth my time.--Abd (talk) 14:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Were you not so busy being smugly self-righteous, Abd, you might have noticed that

• The matter was already being discussed on AN/I;
• Both User:Fredrick day and User:87.114.141.40 were already blocked.

You are far too fond of your fantasy of being persecuted for your ideas. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I was just looking at those pages and missed it. The active IP account wasn't blocked a few minutes ago. Fantasy? Well, let's say that I'm old enough to know what's real and what is not. I'm not being persecuted. Have you seen any place where I claimed that I was? The diff you gave doesn't show it. This error on your part is an example of what happens here. People, like you, project what they imagine on what other people write. I have not been persecuted here. It was tried and the person attempting it (James Salsman, through some socks, starting with User:BenB4) was blocked, quickly. Don't confuse me with Jordan. He's being persecuted, and that is one very complicated question. Now, "Smugly self-righteous" is a personal attack. If you don't respond appropriately here, I will place the appropriate warning on your Talk page. Your choice. The next steps won't really be up to me.--Abd (talk) 17:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

From what you wrote above, I see that you did the block of Fd, even though you didn't get the active IP, at least not yet. . Congratulations. You get some points for that. I still expect an apology for the personal attack, but ... we are judged by the balance of our deeds, may the good outweigh the bad for you.--Abd (talk) 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I don't see the AN/I report you mention above. The discussion on AN/I was mine, did I miss another one? Your comment is strange, regarding that. But AN/I is really far too active to follow, like the Village Pump. Part of the problem. DYK that the founder of AN later concluded it was a mistake? (I think he is incorrect, but that attention needs to be paid to how it is done so that scale does not continue to make it even more cumbersome)--Abd (talk) 17:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you so much Abd for your intervention against my block! Users who manage to stand up against the level of accusations I have been subjected to are rare, and I truely appreciate your support in this respect. I did not know you before I think, but I am very grateful that you have been around! Best regards. PHG (talk) 21:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Abd for your advice. PHG (talk) 14:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Concern

(in response to your comment at Akhilleus' talkpage) Correct, you had not been on the VAV talkpage. You have, however, since showing up at the MfD, suddenly appeared at many other places in the PHG dispute, often with unhelpful language. Then, you followed the disputants into unrelated places, such as the DreamGuy WP:AE thread, and then to the talkpage of the admin that closed the thread. Looking at your contribs: Abd (talk · contribs) it seems that you spend a lot of time doing this, jumping from dispute to dispute on Misplaced Pages. May I suggest that you might want to spend some time actually working on articles? --Elonka 04:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, Elonka, I find that your conduct with PHG has been tantamount to harassment, and that you are pressuring others to take strong action against him, and now against DG. Why is this your concern? You said elsewhere that you were tired of following PHG around cleaning up his messes. Why have you taken on this task? Has it occurred to you that maybe you would not be the best person for that job? From reviewing your behavior around this, it seems to me that you think that Misplaced Pages will fall apart if you do not stop the likes of PHG and DG. Personally. Absolutely, there is a severe problem with incivility, but additional incivility is not going to solve it.

Your description of the events is warped. For example, I did make that comment on the DG AE thread; I came across it because of looking at PHGs AE thread, where you were pushing, as I recall, for him to be blocked. From history, I saw that PHG had commented there, that is why I took a look at it. I wrote something for it, put it up, and then saw that the report had been closed. I read the closure notice and was impressed, so I congratulated the closing administrator. And then *you* responded with "less than helpful comment." I wasn't following you around at all.

As to working on articles, if I feel like it. We each do what we can, when we can. Lately, I've been working on process, it is my major interest outside. I do notice disputes, though I haven't been seeking them out, getting involved in process seems to lead to those places. And something I have noticed: you are there a lot, pushing for sanctions. To return the favor of your suggestion about working on articles, have you considered trying to help editors become more civil? Instead of trying to get them blocked or banned? --Abd (talk) 04:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Abd, as with pretty much everything else that you've posted on these topics, it's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. You see a situation, you make a snap judgment, usually wrong, and then you start chastising people as though you have some authority to correct their behavior, even though you have completely misjudged the behavior in the first place. Some of the comments that you have been making about me have been borderline personal attacks. I am telling you now, stop it. If you persist with negative (and false) statements about my character, I will be forced to escalate this matter. --Elonka 04:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

If I may, I would invite you to look a bit closer at the editor you are defending, Abd. Many editors and admins have spent days at a time trying to counsel him, with no lasting effect. In order to be counseled, the person being subjected to such has to actually want the counseling. If they don't, al the good intentions in the world aren't going to affect matters. I would also like to point out that I am the one who filed the ArbCom Enforcement complaint, and Elonka said very little on the page, compared to those who have since awarded each other barnstars for protecting the underdog without knowing that that particular dog has a history of biting. I would welcome any comment you may have, but I would ask that you take some time to read some of the lengthy notes surrounding DreamGuy's actions within Misplaced Pages; I realize they are rather extensive, but I feel that it would provide you with a fuller picture of whom you are protecting. I am aware of the ideals you are pursuing; I am just not convinced that the current subject of your passion is deserving of the effort. - - Arcayne () 05:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern. I would urge you to re-examine what I've done. It is not to defend DG or PHG. It is to defend the Misplaced Pages community, against rampant AGF failure. I don't believe I attacked any user, and certainly not Arcayne. (Elonka is more complicated, because she is more, shall we say, active in confrontation.) Let me repeat this: DG is not the subject of my passion. He could be a total jerk for all I know, or he could be an embattled editor with human failings, like most of us, responding to a bad situation with bad actions. I am suggesting that, in response to provocations, we not fall into incivility ourselves. We can deal with disruption without becoming uncivil. It's pretty simple. Someone who is disrupting Misplaced Pages should be blocked. It does not matter whose fault it is. However, when we make blocks into punitive actions, when we condemn those we believe we need to block, we do enter a very dangerous territory. A block should never be a punishment. And if it is a protection, anyone can be blocked for the welfare of the project. We are both too reluctant to block and too block-happy when faced with a "bad" user. And to address this will require patient work, to clean up block policy and practice to avoid the abuses -- and I see plenty of them -- and make it easier to protect the project and prevent collateral damage. I must remind readers that WP:AGF is a basic policy, it is fundamental. I know little about DG, I know more about PHG. ArbComm specifically found that it could continue to assume PHG's good faith. I'd suggest that this be considered binding on the community just as the other aspects of the decision are considered binding with PHG. There are means that do not involve any incivility for dealing with the hazards and problems presented by DG and PHG, and all of us -- including them -- will benefit if we find and follow them. Adversarial debates are part of the problem, not part of the solution. We actually have an excellent system, if the community is awake and concerned, and one vulnerable to terrible abuse if it is not. --Abd (talk) 15:32, 25 March 2008

Removal of IP and probable block evasion edits from my Talk Page

First of all, my thanks to the editors who have reverted these edits. I will, however, restore some of them here, to respond specifically to them as I choose. TenOfAllTrades, you may continue, should you so desire, to revert any vandalism or abusive edits to my pages. Equazcion, please refrain from removing any material at all from my User pages, no matter who placed it. Elsewhere, you can certainly do that.

Generally, though, any editor, unless specifically asked not to, may remove blatant vandalism here. However, merely abusive or insulting posts, however, such as those by the IP editor or the probable sock evaders, should not be removed. I'll handle that. This is intended to cause minimum wikifuss for others. An exception: posts here which clearly violate NPA, involving editors other than me, as with any such offensive material anywhere, may be removed. I'll mediate any disputes which arise in my Talk pages.

Meanwhile, the time to clean up is not while the shit is still hitting the fan. It is slowing down, to be sure, but I've also got Other Stuff To Do.--Abd (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

edit by User:Fredrick day sock (probable)

I have restored this here because I believe it raises important issues.

He's too busy, using meatpuppets trying to push his agenda to allow sockpuppets to have multiple votes, to get involved in anything as mundane as editing. Section31--87.114.10.155 (talk) 09:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This was a continuing remark after an edit by Arcayne () 05:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC). This was a typical User:Fredrick day IP sock post, the kind I've been referring to. It attempts to stir up opposition and assumptions of bad faith by making charges that might have some basis on the surface. This user was able to do this very effectively in the process involving User:Larry E. Jordan, where what were actually lies were probably accepted as true by many of those commenting. The ABF and incivility were blatant on the surface, however, as with the above (removed by TenOfAllTrades properly). What I'm pointing out with this example is that a relatively minor offense arguably blockable, and arguably defensible as minor, was exaggerated into something shockingly awful by the implications being cast upon it, first of all, and the community was so busy piling on with reaction like that that it failed to notice who had started the flap (or certainly poured gasoline on it immediately). Blatantly uncivil posts were being made by this user, as an IP editor, with no response, it was only when User:Kmweber figured out what was going on that attention went to this abusive editor. I've seen this pattern more than a few times. The community seems to have a tendency to scapegoat, to ritually stone an alleged offender (and often the offenses are very real), while overlooking worse behavior in the crowd throwing the stones.

There are three charges in this block-evader's edit.

(1) "He's too busy." Basically, yes, while I'm dealing with policy and community process, I'm not editing articles, are at least not much. I happen to think that, at this point, process has become more important than article editing, at least for me. The Misplaced Pages community is slowly but surely being destroyed by an accumulation of ill will, piling up from failure to recognize the serious systemic problems. Misplaced Pages is chewing up and spitting out excellent editors who also happen to be human beings who have faults. We need to address this, and that is probably a major part of my work over the next months. I do not work disruptively, but I do, by the nature of this work, sometimes respond to disruption, for it is a manifestation of my concerns and it can, sometimes, demonstrate what I see. This sock wants to lay charges against me, with this comment, of not being a real editor, only concerned with making trouble for real editors, for he knows that this charge is one which is often applied in justifying blocks.

(2) "using meat puppets." This probably refers to the single user who had a series of accounts, the latest being, now, some of what currently seem to me to be block-evading socks of User:Larry E. Jordan, which just appeared today. (He seems to have stayed away from editing for a remarkable time, knowing him. I highly encouraged him to do that, for it is a waste of admin time to have to be blocking him constantly. Essentially, it's rude. If he wants to come back, he knows how to do it. This time, though, he is pretty much in despair. To put it blankly, he thinks the forces of darkness have won, he was out-maneuvered by Fredrick day, who inserted lies at a critical point which were accepted even by Jordan's friends. (There is, of course, another side. Not to put too fine a point on it, Jordan screwed up, entirely aside from the vicious lies of Fd.) Jordan's Talk page is protected, so he can't even defend himself normally. (This situation is an open invitation to edit through socks. Prevent legitimate communication, people will communicate illegitimately. That natural law should be written on the forehead of every administrator....)

Is Sarsaparilla/Ron Duvall/Absidy/Obuibo Mbstpo/Larry E. Jordan my "meat puppet"? As I wrote before, I wish. That is, I wish he would do as I advise him. When he doesn't, he gets into trouble. I have *never* advised him to do anything contrary to policy, and when he writes something, it is his opinion, whether or not it coincides with mine. He just happens to have taken the time to understand what I write, more than others. There are others like this, and they are certainly not my meat puppets. Believe me, all I'd have to do is say the word, and you would see quite a few. I may appear isolated here, sometimes, but that is quite simply because it would be a violation of policy for me to solicit biased support outside (and even, sometimes, inside, depending on how it is done). And I don't violate policy unless it is accidental.

(3) "his agenda to allow sock puppets to have multiple votes." This is a reference to WP:PRX, which was written by my friend after a partial study of my work with Delegable proxy, article deleted courtesy of Misplaced Pages notability standards (correctly, according to those standards). It will be back, because we have found reliable source, peer-reviewed publication, apparently. One day at a time. The proposal was not about voting, at all. It was about setting up a system whereby WP users could designate, in a central fashion, but through proxy files in their own user space transcluded to a proxy table, a user whom they identify as "trusted." Due to Misplaced Pages policy, which I fully support, this does *not* mean that they can vote on behalf of another user. It gives them no rights that are not assigned to them by consensus, and WP:PRX did not suggest any such rights. The tables were for voluntary, experimental use. Some *possible* applications were mentioned, and some of those involved voting, which is the grain of truth in Fd's salt shaker. Among these applications, for example, would be the creation of a kind of editor assembly, as was discussed on Jimbo Wales talk pages. But none of this was actually proposed by WP:PRX, which only dealt with the file formats, really. Ironically, the process demonstrated (through attention to Sarsaparilla/Ron Duvall/Absidy and me) how using the system to assign sock puppets proxies would be sock-suicide. The *last* thing a puppet master wants to do is to call attention to the connection between the sock and the master by explicitly stating it, nor to connections between socks. I and the others above were checkusered, promptly, even though the system was only still a test. But even without that, no use of the proxy tables was to be permitted, or even suggested, that would be contrary to policy, guidelines, and consensus.

Fd's comment was, as were many before, dense with lies, i.e., statements made to lead astray. Typical of the Master of Deception. Why bother responding? Because this liar is repeating stuff that many users think, when they have seen what they have seen, or that they can easily think with faced with what they do not understand. He knows exactly how to feed them what will most effectively lead them into hatred and contempt, which is his goal. He knows how to destroy Misplaced Pages, and he will do it if we let him. He has been doing it for years. (He is the archetype, not necessarily the specific user.) The Fredrick day/User:Larry E. Jordan incident shows this clearly, and I will be working slowly, fully within policy and guidelines and the spirit of Misplaced Pages, to raise our consciousness about this in a non-disruptive way. That's the trick. I am not claiming it will be easy. But if anyone is interested in helping, please respond on my Talk, or by e-mail. --Abd (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit by probable sock of User:Larry E. Jordan

This was in response to comments above from Elonka and Arcayne. I have reviewed this and find nothing here offensive or abusive, and, in addition, I find it worthy of discussion here on my Talk page.

Abd, you probably would have been a good candidate for WP:AMA. In the criminal justice system, it is considered acceptable for one's attorneys to represent him and present his side in a biased way, helping him navigate a system that pits him adversarially against the prosecution. Here, you are simply volunteering to help defend someone, essentially being a pro bono lawyer. Yet you are criticized for it. Would a court-appointed attorney be subject to such criticism, no matter what low-life he defends? Did we fault Alan Dershowitz, F. Lee Bailey, Robert Shapiro and Johnnie Cochran for defending O.J., despite his guilt? Would they be subject to being prosecuted themselves for their cross-examination and impeachment of the state's witnesses, because they were on the wrong side?

Yes. However, I have not been acting as an advocate for the users in question, I am functioning, actually, more like a court officer. We *all* should be functioning in that way. That is, we should all intervene to interrupt abusive behavior, to protect all present, not just the alleged innocent or the alleged guilty. The difference between me and a defendant's lawyer would be that I have no duty toward these "defendants" other than the same duties we all have, to assume good faith, to use Misplaced Pages dispute resolution process -- which begins with civil discussion -- to resolve problems, and to act promptly, as we can, against disruption, and AGF failure is about as disruptive as possible. When you (I'm assuming it's you, the level of writing matches) were being pilloried for creating a non-notable article, when lies were being promoted that it referred to an obscene hotline (when it was actually a parody which could be broadcast on the radio in the U.S. where fines can be enormous for obscenity, I have heard worse on the radio, in fact), there were users who were simply perplexed and frustrated and essentially burnt-out from what they quite reasonably, given the BS they were being fed, thought was a poke in the eye from someone they had tried to help. However, there were others, a few, who went far beyond that, and the most prominent was the bad hand IP edits of User:Fredrick day. I tried to act against that, and there was almost no attention paid at first. This is the problem. The court was being disrupted, and it was not being disrupted by you. The *first* thing we attend to is disruption of the processes by which we make decisions. The priorities were wrong. There was no emergency with you, whether you were blocked or not, and there are simple ways that you could be allowed to contribute to the project, and efficiently that do not involve, even, exposing the project to you japes.

Now, about those japes.... you know! Quit it! Grow up! However, I also know, very well, what you face, and I know that people don't grow up by being shouted at. So, in the meantime, you may need to be contained in some ways. My strong opinion is that your contributions far, far outweigh what it will take to contain you, to prevent your impulsiveness from doing harm, and, if we do this, you too will benefit. But you must accept that you have shown that you require some containment, some special attention to prevent disruption. Anticipating what others may claim, those who really want to see you banned completely, the labor involved in such efforts would be voluntary, by users who take responsibility for anything allowed to remain of yours. This is actually a generic solution, it can be applied to editors similar to you, who presently often end up being banned, as the sanctions escalate and are ineffective. Punishment does not work with people like you, we need to learn that. It simply does damage. But action to protect the project and the community is not punishment, and, done properly, it is purely cooperation toward mutual goals.

You have recently made a number of edits, block-evading, with the above account and I believe another, and maybe more than that. As you know, I am asking you to reveal to me all such edits, so that they can be reviewed, by me or by others. We will work out how to do this. None of this should be construed as condoning block evasion. You know and I know that I repeatedly advised you to not evade the block, in any way. We can do this without block evasion, but, if we can find proper consent, it will be easier if you have an account you can use that *is* blocked, but that is not considered banned. I intend to be negotiating this with administrators, so that whatever we do either has consensus directly, or is, by consensus, at least, not prohibited by policy. I am working, strictly, within policy and guidelines, because, as you know, I consider them to be, already, excellently formed. Not perfect, there may be some improvements, to be sure, but quite good enough. What we need is structure and procedures that are more effective in realizing the policy goals.

But Misplaced Pages has a different philosophy, that we're against "wikilawyering" and that, as Judge Danforth said in The Crucible, "The pure in heart need no lawyers." Well, so be it. But let me say that this system tends to disfavor the unpopular defendants, because no one wants to stick their neck out for them, even in the interests of giving them a fair defense. If we would look at it more impersonally, that these proceedings are simply a means of each side presenting its case as strongly as possible, and not as undesirable wikidrama, there might be better justice done here. But you can see from what happened to WP:AMA where the community stands. Best to pack it up and get gone, before you get lynched yourself. It's only a matter of time if you continue playing Atticus Finch. Abuv the law (talk) 14:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

This analysis is correct, but I don't accept the conclusions. I see something else. There are indeed, lynch mobs. But only a very tiny percentage of even the most active users participate in them. Most users are occupied elsewhere, as they should be. There is, after all, a project to build and maintain. How do we address this? My claim is that it is actually easy.

Wait a minute! If it were easy, why aren't we already doing it?

Because it conflicts with certain unexamined ideas that we have about Misplaced Pages and what is possible. So, even though it is very simple, it seems wrong, wrong, wrong when it is first mentioned, countless objections will be raised. Each one of these objections can be answered or itself has a simple solution, but the sudden appearance of all the objections at once in the mind of a reader makes it almost impossible to understand the idea. It will take time to move beyond this. It always does. I do know how to do it, I think. We'll see. Knowing does not make it happen, time is still a very necessary ingredient.

"And the reward of patience is patience."

--Abd (talk) 21:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI

There's an AN/I thread regarding you here. You may wish to comment. Sheffield Steel_stalk 01:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I responded there. This was an interesting little demonstration. User:Fredrick day discovered that he could say what he'd always been thinking by using bad-hand IP edits, only he screwed up and got caught, but not before he managed to troll outraged response to a minor transgression by User:Larry E. Jordan, resulting in a police riot. Nobody seemed to notice that this whole disruption started out with an IP editor attacking a user. Instead many piled in, for some time, focusing on the targeted user's transgression. Shocking Article on Obscene Easter Bunny Hotline! Think of the Children! Misplaced Pages Reputation in Tatters! And so Jordan was, once again blocked, with his reputation completely destroyed, and many administrators and at least one arbitrator believing that he had bitten the hands that fed him. And the disruption continues, all because the community didn't notice who was trying to rile them up. Was the article improper? Sure. Non-notable. Happens every day. Speedy it out, done in a flash, and Jordan certainly would not have made a fuss. The article was not a hoax, I verified the hotline. The hotline was not obscene, the content could have been broadcast on the radio here. Bad taste, for sure. But obscene, no. I hear worse, in fact, every day, on a certain Air America program that is truly funny. Warning! The word "vagina" was used! And there is one beep and it is reasonably easy to guess what was beeped out. Any any parent who lets his or her kids read Misplaced Pages and doesn't want the kid to be exposed to stuff like this.... is crazy. Misplaced Pages is not censored. There are certain words I don't want to search for because I don't want to look at that stuff.

Definitely a bad move on Jordan's part, given the extraordinary attention focused on his every move. However, not a blockable offense, ordinarily. And now several administrators are putting in far too much labor having to deal with the repercussions. User:Equazcion is covering some of it, to be sure, and that waste of time might actually be useful, it diverts him from doing damage elsewhere. But, no, it's a mess.

In any case, Jtrainor did immediately recognize that the complainant was, shall we say, COI. Not surprising, Fd had caught a fish like this on AN/I before, so he's trying it again. Black Kite, however, took the bait. The ironies multiply. Supposedly my file User:Abd/Open was, as claimed by Fd, "adverting meat-puppet service." Obviously Fd was suggesting an administrative response. So Black Kite deletes my file, in my user space, and doesn't notify me. Thus doing what was suggested by a blocked user, which certainly looks like proxying to me. I don't think he was correct, the licensing issue did not exist, but, as I wrote on the AN/I report, it's not important. I don't need that file at this point and, if I need to, I can get it back. I'd prefer Black Kite continue to do what most administrators do, deal with the flood of crap that inundates this place. Useful.--Abd (talk) 03:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I am quite aware who the original complainant was. However, that doesn't make any difference to the fact that we have removed such pages before, mainly because of GFDL issues, and no doubt will do again in the future. It's nothing personal. Black Kite 07:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I don't agree about the GFDL issue, the existence of that page does not create any GFDL issue at all. There are things that I could possibly do with content placed on that page which might create a problem, but I have no intention of creating GFDL problems, so, quite simply, I would refrain from such. Now, given this, what problem did that page create that was not present simply from having a Talk page? Because people could place content on my Talk page and I could do with it whatever I could do with material from Open. Likewise, anyone could place a file in my user space and I could do similar. So, now that you mention it, please undelete the file. There is no GFDL issue.--Abd (talk) 18:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

March 2008

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Your comment above about User:Equazcion, suggesting that the editor's normal editing is damaging to Misplaced Pages, constitutes a personal attack. Doug. 17:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning, it is important that we begin to clean up our discussions. My comment may have been misunderstood. I see no evidence that User:Equazcion's "normal editing" is damaging, and I have not followed him to even make a comment about his general editing activities. However, he has been very, very active in deletion discussions, certain policy debates, and in commenting on other editors and their behavior, and I do consider much of this to be damaging. I don't think that this constitutes a personal attack.

For sure, I have no intention of personally attacking any editor, and if I have done so, and I am so fortunate as to recognize it, I would immediately apologize and rectify it, as I've done in the past when I made such mistakes. For me to claim that the behavior of an editor, though, is damaging is some way or other is not a personal attack. Note that such claims have been made many times about me, and I have not complained about "personal attacks." However, recently, I warned an administrator for a comment above, who had written:

Were you not so busy being smugly self-righteous, Abd, you might have noticed that You are far too fond of your fantasy of being persecuted for your ideas.

That is a personal attack. Now that it has been brought to your attention, please tell me, was I correct to warn him about it? --Abd (talk) 18:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Both comments are uncivil and I consider both personal attacks - I don't patrol for them, I just happened to notice your comment. I have not researched the background to the comments you reference but there is no excuse for such uncivil comments. To the extent that your comments about User:Equazcion relate to philosophical differences or a lack of understanding between you, you still have no grounds to call the editor's comments damaging. If you believe that editor has made harmful comments about other users you should bring it up on that editor's talk page rather than making comments like that here. --Doug. 21:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Request to amend case

Please note that I filed a request to amend my case at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Request to amend prior cases: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance. Best regards PHG (talk) 12:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)