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:Huh? a private initiative? It was a criminal case; he was charged by a public prosecutor and sentenced by a public judge. Like it or not, this case has (rightly, IMO) been cited in the international press as an example of human right problems endemic in the Greek state, and of course it was an event that is only explainable in the context of the public nationalist hysteria of the 1990s. The fact that the judges in the court of appeal had a bit more sense doesn't take away from the scandalous miscarriage of justice that was the first trial. ] ] 14:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
:Huh? a private initiative? It was a criminal case; he was charged by a public prosecutor and sentenced by a public judge. Like it or not, this case has (rightly, IMO) been cited in the international press as an example of human right problems endemic in the Greek state, and of course it was an event that is only explainable in the context of the public nationalist hysteria of the 1990s. The fact that the judges in the court of appeal had a bit more sense doesn't take away from the scandalous miscarriage of justice that was the first trial. ] ] 14:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
::"Public nationalist hysteria of the 1990s"? His case was pursued by a small group of Vlach leaders; it barely rated a mention in the Greek media. You should know that that kind of holier-than-thou rhetoric doesn't really register with Greeks, especially coming from a German. ] (]) 00:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights
You mean a mission to improve coverage of Human rights issues on Misplaced Pages? Then sure I'm on a mission — well, not really a mission, more like a short sojourn. What other kind of mission would I be on? And explain exactly what is ridiculous about this article (apart from the paltry size for such a large issue). - FrancisTyers21:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
It is ridiculous (and infuriating if you ask me, but that's me) that you start the article by saying "Greece has been accused of varying degrees of human rights abuses" blah blah, as if Greece is a third world country with no respect to human rights whatsoever. The article should obviously start by putting things in perspective, namely stating that Greece is a DEVELOPED country with a VERY GOOD human rights record and praised for it by the international community. See the point? And then, of course you can mention your issues. You're just pushing your POV fanatically, this is what I see.--Avg21:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
My apologies if it appears that I am pushing any kind of "POV". I searched for "greek human rights" in Google and just made the article out of the first stuff I came up with. None of it mentioned Greece being praised, incidentally. I have added an introduction taken partially from the Human rights in Romania article which I hope allays some of your concerns. I will work on a more comprehensive introduction shortly. - FrancisTyers21:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is a collaborative effort after all, so I shouldn't direct my criticism to you. I can edit what I don't like and then you can edit what you don't like and so on. My guess is that in some days (or weeks or months, I don't know), this article will reach a good and mutually acceptable level.--Avg21:47, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
And since we both live in the UK, see what I mean: Human rights in the United Kingdom. This seems the way to go. It is more appropriate to compare Greece with another EU country and since I've lived in both countries for quite a few years, let me tell you that there are issues where the UK is far worse than Greece. --Avg21:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Dude, don't get me wrong I totally agree. The government of the UK are largely criminals — unfortunately that is a minority position :( Not only do we export our bad record on human rights to other countries, cf. Iraq, but we do it at home too, cf. Northern Ireland. I think that article could do with expanding too. Its been on my watchlist a while, but I keep getting distracted into other things... - FrancisTyers22:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This one from HRW is fair and I consider these actual and serious issues (by the way do you see Macedonians even mentioned? This should tell something to you, I hope) . --Avg22:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, thats a good report. They mention Macedonians/Macedonian issues ten times, and corroborate most of what was written in Amnesty. I'll probably take that source over to Ethnic minorities in Greece, I'd like to avoid getting too much of the Human rights stuff bogged down over there though. I was hoping for it just to be an introduction to the topic. Specific human rights issues can go here. - FrancisTyers23:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Well I've actually read the whole report and not only scanned for the word Macedonia but you're welcome to take it wherever you want. I believe the phrasing of the report is excellent in terms of NPOV. It does present the issues but does not use hard verbs. If only the phrasing here was the same. --Avg23:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, i did add it to 2 articles. I did not mean for it to be a point of veiw push but it should be found as a whole on possibly one article and summarized on the others as you have done kekrops. That is a good point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by P m kocovski (talk • contribs) 06:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
BalkanFever you say that "current issues include the treatment of minority groups". What is that supposed to mean? The US Department of State's up-to-date report which I added explicitly defines the problem as "limits on the ability of ethnic minority groups to self-identify; and discrimination against and social exclusion of ethnic minorities, particularly Roma". This is much better than your vague paragraph since it specifies the exact problem and it is supported by an authoritative reference.Dexippus (talk) 13:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I think he wants each group mentioned separately and explicitly. I think the extra paragraph on the "ethnic Macedonians" is a bit much, though, apart from giving them disproportionate attention in comparison to the other groups. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 13:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
What was the point of mentioning the Bletsas case? That was a private initiative, in no way supported by the government, and he was finally acquitted. That shouldn't even be come into the picture.Dexippus (talk) 13:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Huh? a private initiative? It was a criminal case; he was charged by a public prosecutor and sentenced by a public judge. Like it or not, this case has (rightly, IMO) been cited in the international press as an example of human right problems endemic in the Greek state, and of course it was an event that is only explainable in the context of the public nationalist hysteria of the 1990s. The fact that the judges in the court of appeal had a bit more sense doesn't take away from the scandalous miscarriage of justice that was the first trial. Fut.Perf.☼14:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
"Public nationalist hysteria of the 1990s"? His case was pursued by a small group of Vlach leaders; it barely rated a mention in the Greek media. You should know that that kind of holier-than-thou rhetoric doesn't really register with Greeks, especially coming from a German. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 00:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
