Misplaced Pages

It misses some edge cases, but we're not talking about edge cases. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This isn't an edge case issue. You asked a loaded question. Like if people were disagreeing over how to describe the contents of a bag containing apples and pencils and you asked a passer-by "Hey, what should we call the contents of this bag that contains pencils?" You're tainting the input of the Rfc. --Gronky (talk) 00:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I expect you to strike these comments after the relisting, having rewritten the summary in your own words. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by User:Thumperward (Chris Cunningham)

• My own position has not changed from that of the previous discussion.
  1. As a scientific document, Misplaced Pages follows scientific convention wherever possible. This means that in general, if an authority (say, a standards organisation, or an official naming body, or whatever) uses a specific term for a subject then Misplaced Pages uses it.
  2. No such authority exists for operating systems. Historically they have been named by their vendors, who may have a half-dozen contradictory names for their operating systems. In each case, lacking any authority other than the vendor, articles are titled by whatever the vendor currently refers to them as.
  3. Regardless of any supposed normative name for an OS built with GNU components, no authority exists to officially name operating systems using some GNU code. The original plan was for there to be one GNU operating system, called GNU, built with a GNU kernel. Linus Torvalds did not plan to be a part of that operating system ("won't be big and professional like gnu"). The FSF is not an authority in naming operating systems. (see also: aluminium, where an authority exists to name the substance.)
  4. In the absence of an authority which can credibly name the OS, the next best bet is vendors (who generally use "Linux") and popular perception (which is overwhelmingly "Linux"). So as far as picking a name for the article, it has to be "Linux". "GNU/Linux" is just another vendor term. Any other conclusion lends undue weight to a minority position, and any claim to GNU/Linux being normative is POV in absence of any historical or authoritative evidence to the contrary.
  5. This should be applied consistently throughout Misplaced Pages, in the absence of arguments such as proper names. The official name of the Debian distribution is Debian GNU/Linux. However, it should still be described as a "Linux distribution", as articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects.
• Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• We simply should use Misplaced Pages policy regarding naming conflict: "Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. By doing this, ideally, we can choose a name in a systematic manner without having to involve ourselves in a political dispute." -- Man with one red shoe (talk) 18:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

  As described above, the relevant guidelines under "Proper nouns" are the subjective criteria, as there is no definitive or authoritative name for the subject. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

  I tend to agree that the guidelines don't seem to help (either side of the argument) much in this case. In that context though, I find it surprising that Chris is able to come to such a incredibly strong position against GNU/Linux (i.e., applied consistently throughout Misplaced Pages). —mako๛ 13:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

  Last summer, he changed every mention of "GNU/Linux" on Misplaced Pages to "Linux", and he was editing more than all his critics combined, so no one could stop him. I call this the "edit flood" problem - Misplaced Pages doesn't have much of a defense against it :-/ --Gronky (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by Mion (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Now Chris is not really open about whats going on, he points to a former Rfc where he should point to the reaon for this Rfc, the page where he couldn't find consensus on GNewSense, see Talk:GNewSense#Articles_are_.2Astill.2A_not_written_from_the_POV_of_their_subjects and several people have pointed out that he is walking the wrong path with his stance on Linux on his userpage. In short GNU/Linux has 16.700.000 hits on Google and for some bogus reasoning we have to remove the mentioning of GNU/Linux from Misplaced Pages. (We should remove GNU/Linux from Debian). As for productnaming, which it is, the name of the producer is always followed, just like you name a Mitsubishi Outlander V6 like the company names it. and just like we name an Ipod because the maker of the Ipod calls it an Ipod, and the same goes for Debian GNU/Linux. Mion (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is going to change the name of Debian, but at the same time "Linux" is the least common denominator for all distros, you can't call Red Hat a "GNU/Linux distribution", because they call it "Red Hat Linux" not "Red Hat GNU/Linux" Man with one red shoe (talk) 20:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I'm not sure why this is being reopened. Chris should be asking for comments on the article in question, not here. And your Google search results are misleading. By my count GNU/Linux gets 1.3 million and Linux gets over 78 million. And with regards to Debian, it is appropriate to use the term GNU/Linux on the Debian article, but not on Ubuntu, OpenSuse, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Fedora (Linux distribution), etc... —BradV 20:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but nobody requests from us to call Red Hat GNU/Linux, the whole call for consistency is bogus, we dont remove the mentioning of sedan or coupe from carpages because de common denominator is car, its the other way around we mention as much as we know in detail about every product, so on every page Linux stays, the only thing is, we add GNU for the projects that declare that the product is a GNU/Linux product. And for BRAD, try the Dutch Google it seems CA version is filtered ]. Mion (talk) 21:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

If you exclude Misplaced Pages, Google.nl returns the same results as Google.ca: 1.3 million. The point is that the existing consensus is just fine: We use Linux where appropriate and we use GNU/Linux where appropriate. This is determined by the topic at hand. —BradV 21:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's being reopened because of the furore at talk:gNewSense; the introduction is constantly rewritten to say things like "gNewSense is a GNU/Linux distribution" or "gNewSense is a software product which combines the GNU operating system with the Linux kernel" because this is the POV of the subject. As pointed out in the thread User:Mion linked to, articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects. This is why the North Korea article uses the term "North Korea" throughout even though that isn't the country's official title, and also why articles whose subjects themselves hold that POV, such as Kim Jong-il, also use "North Korea". However, the issue is not only pertinent to gNewSense but to the global use of the "Linux" term on WP. This is the most central place to come up with a project-wide consensus. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It is proper to refer to gNewSense as a GNU/Linux distribution, because that is what the official website says. But this has nothing to do with North Korea. It's all about what are people most likely to be looking for. —BradV 21:18, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Articles are not written from the point of view of their subjects. Should the Gene Ray article begin with "Gene Ray is a Doctor of Cubism" because this is what Ray styles himself? No. It may be appropriate to describe what Ray titles himself as (and this is what the article does), but one does not use it as a normative description. It confuses the issue, because then half the articles on WP use one naming convention and half the other. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

So is that the reason for the RfC? You are wondering whether we should call gNewSense a GNU/Linux distribution or a Linux distribution? —BradV 21:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

That's merely the latest incarnation of the conflict. Identical situations have popped up on hundreds of articles over the years. The RfC is for whether or not articles should get to pick and choose whether which term to use based on the POV of their subjects. In addition, after a comment Jimbo made on the issue, a couple of editors saw fit to deem this to be an "official" overturning of previous discussion. So it's worth hashing back out. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by Gronky (talk)

• The reason an operating system exists today is because the GNU project decided to do whatever work was needed to make an operating system exist. Other parts of the operating system, like the Linux kernel and the X Window System were just isolated projects that, by chance, contributed to making an operating system.
• Linus acknowledges that "a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you need a shell, compilers, a library etc. Most of the tools used with linux are GNU software"
• Research David A. Wheeler notes: "the total of the GNU project's code is much larger than the Linux kernel's size. Thus, by comparing the total contributed effort, it's certainly justifiable to call the entire system GNU/Linux and not just Linux."
• For programmers, the system is defined by it's application programming interfaces, and they're GNU libraries, not kernel APIs
• For users, you could swap out the kernel and the user wouldn't notice. Other kernels such as the FreeBSD or OpenSolaris kernels suffice. However, you can't swap out the GNU parts because there are no replacements. GNU is the essential part of the operating system.
• The name GNU/Linux is used by most big vendors of the operating system:
  • Mandriva, in their "About Mandriva" PR boilerplate, say "The company offers its enterprise, government and educational customers a complete range of GNU/Linux and Open Source software and related services." Plus see and their wiki
  • Sun Microsystems talk about "Sun's GNU/Linux offerings"
  • Fedora steering Committee members
  • Debian GNU/Linux and Knoppix GNU/Linux, obviously
  • more to come

How do any of these points establish that "GNU/Linux" is a normative term? The Free Software Foundation demands that XEmacs be referred to as "GNU XEmacs" for the same reason. Is the Free Software Foundation a naming authority for all GNU-derived code? If, in fact, it is a political rather than normative term, and the Free Software Foundation has no authority nor legal ground to demand attribution from the name of code derived partially from its copyright, why is Misplaced Pages beholden to use it regularly despite our common-name policies, when we do not use People's Democratic Republic of Korea throughout the encyclopedia? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mention FSF, I didn't use any fsf.org or gnu.org links to make my points, and I didn't say it's political. We're miscommunicating. I said "GNU/Linux" is representative of the object described, it's historically accurate, and it's acknowledged in quite official ways by most large organisations who contribute to the OS. --Gronky (talk) 01:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You didn't answer the question. Regardless of how many vendors independently use the term, how does this establish the FSF's naming convention as normative? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If common usage - and acknowledgement of it's validity by some of those who don't use it - doesn't satisfy you, you'll have to explain your criteria better and why those criteria are required by Misplaced Pages. --Gronky (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

We use the most common name. Relatively speaking, GNU/Linux is uncommonly used. There can be some weighting of sources, yes, but when none of them are authorities (and when there are high-profile examples of vendors which do not use the term, including the original author of the kernel) no argument can be made for overriding the majority term on the basis of authority. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by Benjamin Mako Hill

Whether we like it or not, this discussion is highly politicized and the current status quo -- implemented it seems almost entirely by one person -- strongly serves (in effect if not in intent) a political agenda.

Of course, that might all still be OK if, in the process, it served the purpose of clarifying a situation and keeping people from being confused. But I don't see that happening either.

This issue is highly divisive both on Misplaced Pages and in the general public. More importantly, the use of either "GNU/Linux," "Linux," or "GNU/Linux" does not seem to confuse people in my unscientific tests -- including those unfamiliar with the subject. As others have pointed out, there are places where, for a variety of reasons, either term might be more appropriate. I think that the conclusion that Thumperward has come to that this should be implemented throughout Misplaced Pages is absolutely unsupportable, distracting, counterproductive, and offers very little concrete benefit.

On top of that, the term Linux for the operating systems is, in one very important sense, very confusing in that it confuses the kernel and OS. Calling the OS a "GNU/Linux", a "Linux distribution", a "GNU/Linux distribution", etc. would go a long way to clearing this up.

Misplaced Pages is not a popularity contest. Our job is to inform and choose the most accurate names -- not regurgitate confusing and accurate public misconceptions. Now, even if you don't agree that this is the case here -- and I would like to keep these arguments separate -- the argument for the pan-Misplaced Pages anti-GNU/Linux campaign we've seen seems wholly unjustified and inappropriate. —mako๛ 14:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you therefore believe that Misplaced Pages should take no position on the use of the terminology? Does this mean that you believe the articles should (a) use the two terms completely interchangeably, as with British and American English; (b) use the term preferred by the subject of the article; or (c) use the term favoured by the current editor? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As long as it can be done in a way that is clear (i.e., introducing and linking both terms when first used in an article), I'm happy with (a). That said, I would be happy with (b) as well.

We've got a highly politicized fight going on here between people with stated personal positions in favor and against the people and institutions at the heart of the larger debate. I do not believe that is currently possible for the people currently debating to come to consensus on the use of one term, throughout Misplaced Pages, that is in the interests of neutrality. What this article should be named and how it should be introduced is a separate matter. —mako๛ 14:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Mako that the issue here is that one POV pushing side (consisting mainly of one person) has pursued their agenda repeatedly in Misplaced Pages, without regard to the consensus of other editors. Like Mako, I am happy with (a) "use the two terms completely interchangeable, as with British and American English". I am not happy with POV-pushing and ignoring real complaints about the confusion introduced by one side in this debate. There are contexts in which casually referring to "Linux" as the operating system can be appropriate.... and many more contexts where it is confusing and not appropriate. Taking a "google vote" is misleading in a number of ways, not least of which is that there is no way to sort out which of those references are for the kernel itself. The "vendors don't use it in their brand names" argument strikes me as completely invalid as well, it is like saying we can't call soft drinks "soft drinks" because each of the individual vendors like "Coke" and "Pepsi" don't include the term in their brand names. (This may not be the best analogy, but it should not be hard to construct dozens of similar analogies.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Google "vote" is misleading, but this is the term used by media and this is the term used by most of the people. Who decides in this case what is the "right" name, isn't the use of it? It seems to me that choosing the less used variant to promote some ideals is simply POV pushing, while choosing the other variant that's not used for political reasons and is used by most of the people it should be norm. But if you make a ruling that Misplaced Pages is about pushing ideals then it will be fine with everybody (just trying to make a joke). man with one red shoe (talk) 12:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to again contest the idea that this was unilateral or forced action. At every stage, I've invested considerable time and effort in bringing this to discussion and using Misplaced Pages's formal resolution steps to encourage progress on the issue.

As for the arguments about a "google vote" or such, I can't imagine that anyone would argue that the terms are in equal common usage, or that the presence of vendors who use the "GNU/Linux" term indicates any sort of authority behind it (not least because of the presence of at least an equal number of vendors who don't use the term, including the Linux Foundation itself). The use of "Linux" is not "casual", as this implies an authority behind "GNU/Linux" which does not exist. Thus, no claims of "accuracy" in the other term carry any weight. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say that calling the attempt at consistency based on our policy of using the term which is most commonly used around the world 'POV pushing' is a bit far. That implies that there is bad faith editing, which I haven't seen, and I've been on and off involved in this whole debacle for quite a while. The issue remains that there is no consensus either way really, and the idea of introducing consistency, in my opinion, was a good one.

One major thing here is that this still doesn't help us decide on the key issue - what the article about the operating system named most commonly 'Linux' should be called.

And as Chris says, there is no authority on this issue, as the 2 sides, namely the FSF/GNU foundation and Linus Torvalds both could be seen as authority.-Localzuk 19:00, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree there's no consensus, but I don't see how you can then argue for exclusive use of one term (and then choosing the most confusing/inaccurate of the two terms). --Gronky (talk) 19:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

One more comment on Jimbo's post. To expand on your example, if Coke fans would constantly and ceaselessly demand on Misplaced Pages to call Pepsi "Coke/Pepsi" how would you think about that? Or to call cola "Coke/drink" because that's the "correct" name (to give credit to company who invented the drink), how would you feel about that? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Position by Deep Alexander

It's not GNU/Linux. It's Linux.

No matter how you see it you can't name it GNU/Linux. GNU did not create Linux so any GNU in Linux should be in the form of Linux/GNU. And can you use GNU as a source on calling Linux GNU? isn't their opinion on the whole too biased to be facts? It should be immediately corrected! --Deep Alexander (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"The GNU contribution is the basis for the alternative name GNU/Linux." should say that the alternative name is Linux/GNU but that GNU prefers the GNU/Linux naming.

For the sake of sanity, correct --Deep Alexander (talk) 00:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

GNU, the FSF and Debian call it GNU/Linux. Ubuntu, Novell, IBM, Red Hat, Sun and Linus Torvalds call it just Linux. Who calls it Linux/GNU?? —BradV 00:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ubuntu and Sun call it both "Linux" and GNU/Linux" at different times. To illustrate the point, here's an example of a joint Canonical-Sun press release with GNU/Linux on the top line! Ubuntu's position is to not privilege one term over the other by using either term or, where possible, both. To reduce confusion, Ubuntu also tries to avoid the awkwardness by simply just referring to the OS as Ubuntu and not as Ubuntu Linux or Ubuntu GNU/Linux. Ubuntu also tries to call itself a "Linux distribution" or a "GNU/Linux distribution" which is more clear. In fact, Ubuntu moved away from its initial domain in part to avoid becoming a "Linux." This non-dogmatic approach is precisely what I'm advocating on Misplaced Pages and the only approach I think makes sense for an encyclopedia. —mako๛ 01:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not everytime the majority is correct, no matter how you look at it. calling it GNU/Linux could be a academical error.

If it's Linux + GNU it should be Linux/GNU.--Deep Alexander (talk) 00:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That argument sounds a lot like original research. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, though. If you can find a reliable source it can be put in the article. —BradV 00:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Unfortunately, unless you can provide references, you're not going to get a consensus for Linux/GNU. Even if it's factually correct, there is also a case for WP:COMMONNAME as GNU/Linux appears to be the name most commonly used. But start by finding references to lend weight to your argument to show it's not original research. Bardcom (talk) 00:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe GNU/Linux should prevail over Linux/GNU for three reasons: (1) It is the more common term based on a google search of "GNU/Linux" and "Linux/GNU", (2) It is the prefered term on the GNU Pproject web site and the only form referenced in the linux.org FAQ, and (3) all other things being equal, it has been the term historically used in this article since its creation. —-- Tcncv (talk) 03:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Just because it's been used since the dawn of creation does not mean it's correct. GNU/Linux would imply that it's GNU who made Linux, or that it's their version of Linux.

If their name have to be in Linux it should be at Linux/GNU since it's Linux with GNU, not GNU with Linux.

Heh, maybe we should start saying the earth is flat again too --85.11.214.226 (talk) 12:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No. "GNU Linux" would imply that GNU made Linux. "GNU/Linux" intends to imply that this is a modified version of GNU, specifically, this is the "Linux" version. Another form Stallman has used in the last 5 or so years is "GNU+Linux". --Gronky (talk) 12:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Position by Grandscribe (talk)

• Comment: These edits are the user's sole contributions to Misplaced Pages. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Reply: I found the discussion was requesting for comments. So I decided to participate. Is it reserved only for users having more contributions?.--Grandscribe (talk) 17:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Here is what some specialized books say about the topic in discussion.

• In truth, from its adoption as an operating system, the rightful name of Linux is really GNU/Linux. Linux is really only the kernel (the core component) and GNU contains the supporting applications around the kernel that make it functional. These supporting applications include the user interface and all other applications.
  

GNU Debian Bible by Steve Hunger Hungry Minds Inc. 2001

• As we have mentioned, Linux is just a kernel. You can obtain the sources for the kernel to compile and install it on a machine and then obtain and install many other freely distributed software programs to make a complete installation. These installations consist of much more than just the kernel. Most of the utilities come from the GNU Project of the Free Software Foundation.
  

Beginning Linux Programming by Neil Matthew and Richard Stones (Paperback - Nov 5, 2007)

• Strictly speaking, after all, the term Linux refers to only the kernel.
  

Linux kernel development second edition 2005 Pearson Education Inc.

Grandscribe (talk) 11:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are some examples that show that GNU/Linux is used by SUN, IBM and Red Hat. The text comes from their websites:

Sun's GNU/Linux Offerings

Sun brings a comprehensive systems approach to GNU/Linux-based operating systems. Sun is one of the largest contributors to the GNU/Linux operating system.

http://www.sun.com/software/linux/index.xml

Chapter 16. The GNU Project and GNU/Linux

The GNU Project was launched in 1984 to develop a complete Unix-like operating system which is free software: the GNU system. (GNU is a recursive acronym for "GNU's Not Unix"; it is pronounced "guh-NEW".) Variants of the GNU operating system, which use the kernel Linux, are now widely used; though these systems are often referred to as "Linux", they are more accurately called GNU/Linux systems.

http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-3-Manual/gcc/gnu-project.html

IBM website search function shows 794 documents on its website using GNU/Linux to refer to the system.

http://www.ibm.com

Grandscribe (talk) 02:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The following explains the role of GNU in making Linux possible. These are the statements of Linus Torvalds. This is the extracted text of an interview Linus Torvalds gave for the 2001 docummentary Revolution OS:

Linus Torvalds:

There's alot of these programs uh...done by the Free Software Foundation and done by other people like Linux and there's a symbiosis between Linux*(he refers to the kernel) and the programs so the programs run on Linux*(the kernel) and at the same time they take advantage of Linux* as a platform while Linux* takes advantage of the programs by just being able to use them.

Interviewer:

what programs?

Linus Torvalds:

Uhmm... the main one is actually the GNU C Compiler which without a C compiler it would not have been possible to make Linux* or most of the open programs available.

Note: The asterisk was added to point to the fact that Torvalds is clearly referring to the kernel.

Grandscribe (talk) 13:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

So... every program that's compiled with GNU C Compiles should be called GNU/programname? It's one thing to acknowledge the importance of GCC and another to change the name of a program or operating system in order to "give credit". The importance of GNU, GCC, GPL and of software freedom fighters is a red herring in this discussion because (no matter how RMS tries) nobody can make a case to name something to "give credit", there's simply no such thing in the world... on the other hand let me go and change my Edison/lightbulb and reboot my von Newman/Turing/computer -- Man with one red shoe (talk) 14:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone suggested that. GCC is just one of the core contributions of GNU to the GNU/Linux operating system. The above quote just confirms that Linus acknowledges the importance of the GNU contribution (particularly GCC). --Gronky (talk) 14:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Acknowledging the contribution does not mean agreeing with the naming convention which supposes that subjects are named according to who contributed to them. Using a cherry-picked quote from Revolution OS to give that impression is disingenuous in the extreme, considering that elsewhere in that work Torvalds specifically states that he believes the FSF's position to be ridiculous. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, Linus acknowledge the importance of gcc... so? This is open source, you know, "building on shoulders of giants" and all that crap, but that doesn't imply that you have to use a naming convention that gives credit to the code you used (other than what's specified in the license). Man with one red shoe (talk) 16:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That interview extract was in response to someone above who said that GNU had no role in the making of Linux. I did not add any comment for this interview extract suggesting that this was the basis for calling the system GNU/Linux. The Linux kernel had no GNU code when it was made(as far as I know) so it is ok to call it Linux even it the GNU C compiler was used to make it . The problem occurs when you take that specific kernel "Linux" and mix it with other software packages required to have a complete and useful operating system. If the main bulk of those essential packages come from the GNU project as the written sources I have shown state, what is the problem to say it is a GNU/Linux system? And since there are some who dispute that then why not use the two terms? Then we would be giving the two equal and fair treatment.--Grandscribe (talk) 17:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand why you added that quote, as for the argument of using GNU packages you need to use GNU name is not relevant I think, first of all we use the current name used by virtually anybody, almost nobody in mainstream press uses "GNU/Linux" CNN and NBC and NYTimes and WallStreet Journal use "Linux", a Google search bring 30 times more results for Linux, in addition the GNU/Linux results are not from official sources are mostly from blogs that usually are not even used as references here on Misplaced Pages. Another point goes like this: in free software world everybody uses code from everybody, if there would be a naming convention to use the name of the sources you use that would be hell and very annoying too. Another thing, kernel is the OS, I mean when you use a computer how much time you use the kernel and how much time you use a compiler? (even if you are programmer) Man with one red shoe (talk) 18:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you name any serious author that declares that the use of the name GNU/Linux is wrong and should NOT be used at all and every mention deleted from this Encyclopedia? The problem is very clear and concrete. It's a naming conflict between those who agree to use GNU/Linux and those who think that this name should not appear at all in wikipedida and use only the word Linux to refer to the kernel and to the complete system. Did I read wrong or according to some users the ultimate goal is to delete, redirect or merge all articles that carry the words GNU/Linux? Honestly it can be perceived that some users are too emotionally attached to their anti GNU/Linux positions and use unnecessary pejorative adjectives towards the comments that do not necessarily support their opinion. Let's try to be objective. --Grandscribe (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The reason for the "purge" (as it is framed) was clearly explained, discussed and justified by the primary reason for it: consistency. Furthermore, the suggesting that those arguing for it are "too emotionally attached to their anti GNU/Linux positions" is just psychological projection. There has been no honest arguemnt which suggests that arguing against the term "GNU/Linux" is driven by dogma, while there is a strong argument that the other party is primarily driven by such (the term is an explicit political frame). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Who said that those against GNU/Linux are driven by dogma?. A good suggestion is to avoid the use of pejorative adjectives and dismissive remarks towards those who agree with the use of GNU/Linux. The discussion should be based on concrete and objective arguments. In regards to "consistency" it was based on a previous RFC where only 3 users voted to purge GNU/Linux from wikipedia.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC) .

Position by User:KimDabelsteinPetersen (Kim Dabelstein Petersen)

First a little background: I've been in the Unix business since the early 1980's, i've programmed for and administrated Unix boxes ever since, with some brief leaps into embedded programming (again Unix). I started using GNU utilities since they first arrived on tapes in the 80's. My friends would say that i'm a GNU/Linux/GPL advocate. I run a small consultancy company called LiGnus.

Now for my take (first some observations):

• Linux is the kernel.
• GNU is important in the open-source movement.
• Linux got its first distribution with the help of GNU.
• GNU is not dependent on Linux.
• Linux is not dependent on GNU.
• There are a lot of different Linux distributions.
• Distributions are not always based on GNU.

The FSF would very much like to have the Linux systems called GNU/Linux, and i sympathize with this. But that is not the reality. The reality is that the World in general calls the various Linux derived distributions "Linux" - so per WP:COMMONNAME Misplaced Pages should reflect this. If a specific distribution calls itself GNU/Linux then this should be reflected in the articles about it, but not to the extent where every instance of Linux is exchanged with GNU/Linux.

A Linux operating system, at the very lowest level, need not be more than:

1. A bootstrap
2. The Linux kernel
3. Init (process 0) could really be exchanged with a program directly but commonly isn't
4. A program or more

None of which need be GNU derived - and in the embedded world commonly aren't.

Summary

Linux is name the world recognizes these kinds of systems by - thus per WP:COMMONNAME this is the way it should be described in Misplaced Pages. There is no requirement (or even real-world de-facto requirement) that Linux needs (or consists) of GNU software. So even by this standard we can't say that the name is required.

I personally like GNU/Linux - but Misplaced Pages should refer to it as Linux. --Kim D. Petersen (talk)

WP:COMMONNAME is for page titles which is not the case here. Mion (talk) 19:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Then refer to WP:COMMON, since what we have here is pretty much the same arguments as for page-titles. As said - i sympathize with the argument for GNU/Linux - but face the reality, which is that my Mother, my friends, my Boss, my Colleagues, the Press, my Bird.... :-) all recognize it as "Linux". --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

consider the option to enlighten them by providing information instead of removing it. Mion (talk) 19:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That would be advocacy, and as such has no place on Misplaced Pages. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 19:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the argument about the minimal Linux system with just bootloader, kernel, init, and a program is not relevant here. Yes, you can make toy systems, research projects, and things that are described on embedded Linux, but this article is not about all systems which include the Linux kernel, this article is about Unix-like desktop and server operating systems that include the Linux kernel - and those always include GNU (more GNU than Linux). --Gronky (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is about Linux in all of its many incarnations. And the embedded distributions are just as relevant as the Desktop ones, and i suspect that they represent quite a significant portion of installed Linux' systems in general. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The first line of the article says the article is about the Unix-like operating system. If someone wants to collect info about all incarnations of a particular piece of software, that should go on a hobbyist site or project homepage, not an encyclopedia. This article is about operating systems to which GNU is a larger contributor than the Linux kernel is. --Gronky (talk) 09:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What ever makes you think that µClinux,OpenEmbedded, OpenMoko or Qtopia aren't a Unix-like operating system or even less than full-fledged Linux's? And sorry to break your bubble - but these are professional Linux distributions, which have implementations in the millions. (hint: this is not a hobby thing).

And i'm sorry GNU is not necessary - its nice to have though. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree that those systems are like Unix, but either way, the first two clearly fall into the topic of the embedded linux article, and the second two both use GNU libc and other GNU software. I think you're making my point for me. --Gronky (talk) 12:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but there is no difference between Linux in an Embedded system or Linux on a desktop - except for usage patterns.

OpenEmbedded and OpenMoko both provide the option of using µClibc or dietlibc as well as static linking - so gLibc is not a requirement (i presume the same is the case for Qtopia). What exactly do you think is the difference between OpenEmbedded and OpenMoko? (Hint: OpenMoko is OpenEmbedded with more programs).

I suspect that you think that you need to have a GUI, to be a Linux or Unix system - but that is extremely wrong. X is a rather new addition, and neither embedded systems nor servers need it. (and in many cases do not install it). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Kim D. said: There is no requirement (or even real-world de-facto requirement) that Linux needs (or consists) of GNU software. So even by this standard we can't say that the name is required.

With due respect Kim D. one question: Are any of the distributions (Debian, Ubuntu, Red Hat, Fedora, etc. for which the system is acclaimed distributed without GNU software?? Is any popular distro shipped without GNU software? Are you speaking of just the kernel? --Grandscribe (talk) 22:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Possibly (even probably) not. But name me one essential system component which needs to be GNU, to make a Linux desktop/server system? (gcc is not necessary - but a wise choice). That distributions contain GNU today is by choice (and a good one) - not by necessity. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I would definitely say that this article is about all systems which include the Linux kernel. Regardless, the name "Linux" has been adopted as a name for both the operating system and it's kernel (so, despite what some people assert, "Linux" does not strictly mean the kernel). GNU/Linux distributions are definitely a subset of Linux distributions so they could not be used as a drop-in for Linux. If it's change to GNU/Linux it changes what it covers and really only makes it less organized. Mike92591 (talk) 00:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this article is about the Unix-like subset of Linux-based operating systems. It's in the first line. Other Linux-based systems, such as embedded systems, have their own articles such as embedded linux. For Unix-like Linux-based operating systems, GNU is a larger, earlier, and harder to replace contribution than the Linux kernel is. --Gronky (talk) 09:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As mentioned above - Embedded Linux's are Unix-like Linux-based operating systems. GNU can be replaced - and it will still be a Linux system, but replace the kernel and it isn't a Linux. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No one has made a GNU-less system that users or developers would think was the usual "Linux" they know. On the other hand, if you take Debian and replace the Linux kernel with the kernel of OpenSolaris or FreeBSD, users and developers would still see it as the they they call "Linux" (or what they call "GNU/Linux"). --Gronky (talk) 12:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty silly, I for one I know it's not Linux, on the other hand if users name Linux any KDE or GNOME system then your argument lacks power too, obviously KDE runs very well on BSD and that's not even GNU so it looks like this is the best proof that GNU is not needed either for a "Linux" system. But of course that is based on a silly assumption that users wouldn't figure that out, which is like saying that if you paint a big cat with stripes people won't figure it's not a tiger... not a good argument for claiming that cats are tigers. Not very encyclopedic either... -- man with one red shoe (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

(Since I offered a hypothetical situation and you reply "I know it's...", I wonder if there's a misundertanding, but anyway...) Unless you were told to check if the system was using a Linux kernel, I would be very surprised if you noticed the difference between Debian GNU/Linux and Debian/KFreeBSD. The only difference is the kernel. Even a programmer wouldn't notice the difference. Command line users wouldn't notice the difference (unless they did a specific check, with uname or whatever). --Gronky (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's like saying "if you don't use the future you won't know you are missing", well, duh! Once you add a hard drive, a camera or a wireless card you'd know the difference, configuring interfaces also is different. If you don't look for exhaust pipe sometimes is difficult to figure out if the car is electrical or with a combustion engine, so? Also if you change KDE/Gnome theme to match the Windows XP theme many people will take a long time to figure out it's not Windows, it's still an OS, that has not been used as an argument for calling Windows or Linux in a different way, they just can look the same.... but one is Linux and the other remains Windows even if they "look" the same. But anyway, let's consider my example, if you see KDE on BSD you would assume is GNU/Linux, right? Does that mean that GNU is irrelevant? Since there's no GNU and there's no Linux... Looks alone can be deceiving. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 13:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand you say(Kim D) that GNU components are NOT essential. Please tell then the name of a distribution that does not contain GNU software? Since you say it is not essential to have GNU software there must be a lot of "Linux desktop/server" distributions that do not contain any GNU software. Why install unnecessary GNU software?? And if there are distributions that contain GNU software as their main components why can't the wikipedia articles that talk about those GNU packaged distributions use the term GNU/Linux?--Grandscribe (talk) 09:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have misunderstood the Unix philosophy. Choice is the key, you don't just distribute Bash, you distribute ash, ksh, tcsh etc. so that the user has the choice of his favorite flavor. If you want to go to higher level, then its Gnome, Xfce, KDE.... Afaik, no major distribution tries to limit you as to your personal preferences. Therefore almost all distributions have most GNU components - but almost all also have alternatives. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand you quite well. You say that GNU software is NOT essential yet there are operating systems that use GNU software and do not use the kernel Linux example: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD , a very complete and usable system. Can you name a complete and usable system that contains the kernel Linux and does not contain the so called "non-essential" GNU software? Is there one such distribution? If it really exists I'd like to try it.--Grandscribe (talk) 13:06, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me Kim D just one more question.

Above you said:

A Linux operating system, at the very lowest level, need not be more than: 1.A bootstrap 2.The Linux kernel 3.Init (process 0) could really be exchanged with a program directly but commonly isn't 4.A program or more
None of which need be GNU derived - and in the embedded world commonly aren't.

Can you explain me what I can do with an installation like that? what is it useful for? Is that an operating system for a computer?--Grandscribe (talk) 13:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It (was) not uncommon in situations where you have a program that starts/controls everything else - for instance in a gadget where tight control over the system is needed. Case 4: Think Kiosk systems, X-terminals, diagnostics, dedicated firewalls etc. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Linux systems such as the Wrt54 or the Synology DS107 (two systems i run at home) run busybox (very common) for the core utilities (shell, etc), and have little to no GNU components at all. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As a sidenote - its exactly because these are full Linux systems that i use them. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:Writtenonsand

My "layperson's" take on this --
From linux.org, which presumably has some weight in this conversation --

- "What Is Linux?" - http://www.linux.org/info/index.html

- The History of Linux / Timeline - http://www.linux.org/info/linux_timeline.html

1991
December Robert Blum posts the first Linux FAQ
September Version 0.01 of Torvald's project is made available via ftp.funet.fi. Ari Lemmke, the systems administrator, gives the directory the name Linux.
August Linus Torvalds announces that he's working on an operating system similar to Minix.
June Version 2 of the GNU General Public License (GPL) is released.

- FAQ - http://www.linux.org/info/faq1.html#faq.q10

What does GNU/Linux refer to?
GNU/Linux is the name Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation and the GNU project, and its supporters prefer over just Linux. They cite the fact that Linux could not have come into being without tools from the GNU project. Though this is true, use and custom has favored just Linux over GNU/Linux in the public consciousness. This website's use of the term Linux in no way tries to minimize the contributions of the Free Software Foundation. We feel that it's easier for people to identify the operating system by that simpler name and in the end, that helps in its adoption.

May I also suggest taking a look at a few reputable general-purpose dictionaries? (IMHO the logical resource for questions of correct usage.) The ones I've looked at have "Linux" and don't have "GNU/Linux". -- Writtenonsand (talk) 19:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have checked and not even the word Linux is there. A general purpose dictionary is not the best place to look for technical terms. Shouldn't one better look at a dictionary of technical terms for the computer field? Or even compare with another Encyclopedia? Can you name which dictionary you are using? Do you want to settle this argument by just using a simple every day language dictionary?--Grandscribe (talk) 09:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

- http://www.bartleby.com/61/1/L0190150.html - From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition, an excellent general-purpse dictionary.

A general purpose dictionary is not the best place to look for technical terms. My point exactly. It's the best place to look for "general usage, free from jargon and technical quibbles."

Misplaced Pages:Make_technical_articles_accessible, from the Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, says

"Articles in Misplaced Pages should be accessible to the widest possible audience. For most articles, this means accessible to a general audience.

Every reasonable attempt should be made to ensure that material is presented in the most widely accessible manner possible. If an article is written in a highly technical manner, but the material permits a more accessible explanation, then editors are strongly encouraged to rewrite it."

"Do you want to settle this argument by just using a simple every day language dictionary?" In the absence of any compelling reason to do otherwise (which is what we're attempting to discover here), and if we find that there is a consensus on this among several reputable dictionaries, it seems to me that that's the logical thing to do, yes. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 23:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Bradv

The current consensus is that we commonly refer to the operating system as Linux, but that an alternative name exists, and is advocated by some. We even have an article on it: GNU/Linux naming controversy. This consensus is as a result of past discussions on this topic, and no new information has been presented as to why this consensus needs to be change.

If and when GNU/Linux becomes the more common name in the media the articles on Misplaced Pages will need to change to reflect the common name of the subject. The idea that we need to change in order to spread the "more correct" name, while suggested with the best of intentions, is not what Misplaced Pages is for.

To further expand on this, discussions on which name is more "correct" are kind of irrelevant. We can establish quite easily that the terms "Linux distribution" and "GNU/Linux distribution" refer to the same thing, and are used interchangeably by software vendors and the media. Between these two options, Linux is the more popular term, therefore Linux is the term to be preferred in Misplaced Pages, with honorable mention given to GNU/Linux where appropriate. —BradV 19:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The consensus mentioned in your first paragraph is actually just the single-handed work of User:Thumperward last Summer/Autumn. He changed all mentions of "GNU/Linux" on Misplaced Pages to "Linux". It's unfortunate that this tactic seems to have worked. --Gronky (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually the consensus is as a result of the previous RfC. —BradV 21:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The result of that RfC was:

• GNU/Linux: User:Mms, User:Gronky
• Linux: User:Thumperward, User:AdrianTM, User:Localzuk
• Unclear/inconsistent: User:Sakurambo, User:80.233.255.7, User:Liquidat (although I guess Liquidat intended to support "Linux")

IIRC, it was at the end of another long debate on the same subject, which is probably why participation was poor (I only made one comment). So I wouldn't call those numbers "consensus". --Gronky (talk) 21:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Is that the definition of consensus in Misplaced Pages? Because 3 ordinary users voted for the word Linux entire articles have been deleted, merged or redirected??? Amazing!!! --Grandscribe (talk) 09:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That is very weak consensus and, IMHO, should have been called undecided. In any case, we have the option of not taking a position on this issue which, given the results of the previous RfC, is what I think should have happened. —mako๛ 13:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC) (Originally posted as 69.203.79.242 (talk) 13:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC))

Consensus != voting majority. If the arguments of one side were significantly stronger than the others, then consensus can be claimed due to lack of input/arguments. Going by numbers is simply misleading.-Localzuk 19:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment by User:AVRS

Because of the confusion on what an operating system is, I sometimes say:

• “platforms, like GNU/Linux”
• “platforms, like GNU/Linux/X11”
• “for the GNU/Linux platform”
• “is a GNU/Linux-based operating system”
• “is an operating system based on GNU and Linux”
• “software platform” instead of “operating system”
• “uses a Linux-based operating system” for devices that use Linux without or with very little of the GNU stuff, or where it is unknown if there is GNU stuff at all. --AVRS (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • BTW, that phrase is also better than “the Linux operating system” for GNU/Linux-based systems. Just watch out for BSD and other UNIX and UNIX-like platform. --AVRS (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

A 3-DVD Linux distribution? That reminds me of the Bitstream Vera font licence. --AVRS (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Some said they have never seen “/” used as “and” and not “or” or “divided by”. But look at “TCP/IP” — it is close to “GNU/Linux”, and is in the same order (not as “Linux/GNU”).

See also The linux-kernel mailing list FAQ.

The confusion also leads to statements close to “Linux Torvalds started the open source movement” or even “freeware movement” (usually easy to notice in Russian, but not in English, where the word “free” is used).

And then people disambiguate the phrase “Linus Torvalds, the creator of ]” to “Linus Torvalds, the creator of ]”. Not sure how intentional that was, since it was a “Robot-assisted disambiguation”, but it stayed there for 2 years.

A software shop has put FreeBSD into its “Operating systems/Linux” section. Frankly, it is a subsection of “Multimedia”, and also contains Mandriva, Linux XP and OpenOffice.org. But that OpenOffice.org is for “Linux and Windows”. --AVRS (talk) 21:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

--AVRS (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

One could equally argue that using the term "Linux" for the OS and using the term "Linux kernel" where disambiguation is needed also resolves ambiguity. This is certainly commonplace in real life. TCP/IP is not comparable because that name stems from an authority, where none exists in this case. Regardless, the point is that WP policy dictates that we use the more common real-world usage, rather than attempting to prescribe "correct" names for subjects where none exist. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

It is logical to assume that, by creating the “Linux kernel”, LT has created the “Linux” OS. I bring TCP/IP up as an example of the spelling of a 2-word, slash-separated name. --AVRS (talk) 21:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, all those claims are false, Linus didn't start any movement, he wrote a kernel and open sourced it, yes the kernel can be used as a very good example of open source development, but that's about it. The problem here is not the name used, the problem is that the claims are not well sourced (and are false from what I see). man with one red shoe (talk) 20:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

They are false. People make them because:

1. Linus has created “Linux” (the kernel).
2. “Linux” (so called; the OS) is the most well-known piece of “free software”.

--AVRS (talk) 20:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but I still fail to see the relevance, this is an example of bad editing, it has nothing to do with the name of the OS. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Man with the red shoe,
When you say Torvalds "open sourced" the kernel Linux do you mean he GPL'd it? Do we also have to omit that Linux is under the GNU General Public License? Is there any license called "open source"? Was the development method he used for the kernel Linux called in 1991 "open source development method"? Wasn't this form of cooperation known under any other name?--Grandscribe (talk) 09:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Since you asked me that, do you think that a program has to take it's name from its license? It's important because if that's true I WOULD NEVER release my program under GPL. Linus released the kernel at the first time under a (open source) license that didn't allow for commercial usage, however he corrected the problem by releasing subsequent versions of the kernel under GPLv2. So? Open source is not a license, it's a way to do developing, by the way there are many licenses that allow for the code to be used in a open manner, GNU GPL doesn't hold the monopoly of free or open. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Who said GNU GPL holds a monopoly?--Grandscribe (talk) 02:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Nobody, I just wanted to make sure nobody on this page has the impression that GPL is the only open source license and that the kernel was not using GPL initially, if you already knew that -- very well I won't repeat it. Of course we have to mention the license of the kernel, what kind of question is that? Only that the discussion here was about name not about the license of the kernel. man with one red shoe (talk) 02:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Linux and GNU

Why are there two separate articles on GNU and Linux? First and foremost, the operating system is either GNU (the original version of the operating system, using GNU HURD v0.2 or lower), or GNU/Linux, which is the GNU operating system (same system from what I know), only instead of GNU HURD, it uses the Linux kernel. There is no operating system called Linux. Linux is not an operating system, but the kernel GNU used because the developers of GNU HURD made the kernel more complicated than it should have been, and they looked for a "fully finished" (even though everything is a work in progress, I don't have a better term to use). I propose that Linux should redirect to Linux kernel, and that the current article Linux should be moved to GNU/Linux, OR that Linux kernel should be a redirect to Linux and the contents of the Linux article be changed to the current content of the article Linux kernel, and then the current article Linux be moved to GNU/Linux. I believe option 1 is the best here, and option 2 involves moving too much shit around. I'm sorry I have to use that kind of language, but it's tiresome to write, let alone to do.

Second, GNU/Linux and GNU are not two different operating systems, so why they have two different articles (implying they are two different systems instead of the same system with two kernels) I don't know. I propose the article on GNU/Linux (after the above change comes into effect) be changed so that it describes the same operating system of GNU with a different, more complete (for lack of a better term) kernel instead of a different operating system called "Linux". What does everyone think of this? --User:Iambus | talk 23:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I have a slightly different proposal:

1. Linux should talk about the kernel
2. Big part of the material from this article should be moved to Linux, Linux distribution and some to GNU
3. There should be no GNU/Linux article since that name is mostly intended to promote a POV and for advertisement purposes, promoting GNU and freedom as Stallman declares himself, not that's anything wrong with that, just that Misplaced Pages is not about advertising or promoting political points. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 00:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, how can material from "this article" (assuming you are talking about Linux) be moved to Linux? And I would hardly describe Stallman's viewpoint as "advertising and promotion", which imply commercial intent. I don't believe it is for the purpose of promoting GNU, or else Stallman would call the whole thing "GNU". I believe GNU/Linux is the correct term for the operating system consisting of the Linux kernel and the GNU everything else. Even though GNU is the original, and the project whose members author most of the code, RMS says if arrogance and self-promotion was the reason or that name, he would call the whole thing "GNU".

Secondly, it causes much confusion whether talking about "Linux" in the article, and since the only way to distinguish without using "the evil POV term GNU/Linux" (the POV that you disagree with, basically) is using "Linux kernel" for the kernel and using the incorrect, Torvalds-centric term "Linux" for GNU/Linux. "Linux kernel" in every sentence to avoid confusion seems awkward, and it is hard to tell if one uses "Linux" for both. So, GNU/Linux is the best alternative. --User:Iambus | talk 01:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

so following 1 .Linux should be renamed Linux (kernel). ? thats something to start with as a better reflection of the reality.Mion (talk)

I think that most of us agree that Linux and Linux (kernel) is a doublure, so maybe we should fix this first. Mion (talk) 00:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what your fancy-ass French word means, so use a regular English word to describe it. --User:Iambus | talk 01:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all "Linux kernel" is a tautology, Linux is a kernel. Second, I don't think we need to have a GNU/Linux or Linux OS (according to POV) at all, we should only have Linux, Linux distribution, GNU, Debian, Red Hat, KDE, GNOME, etc. there are no issues that cannot be treated in one of these articles. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 01:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You "forgot" to mention the GNU/Linux. I agree with Mion. Misplaced Pages should have a GNU/Linux article. By the way a "Linux distribution" would be a distribution consisting just of the kernel since Linux is only that: the kernel.--Grandscribe (talk) 02:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

If Linux is a kernel, why not 1. Delete Linux kernel, 2. Move Linux to GNU/Linux, then 3. rewrite Linux to the previous contents of Linux kernel? And what do you mean "According to POV"? My POV is already stated, and so is yours. You are not being neutral here, and nor am I. If it weren't for the GNU Project, [[GNU/Linux would have been nothing but Linus Torvalds' project, which is Linux. So, if you think about it, saying "Linux" is saying the GNU Project's contribution is invalid. That is only what makes it appropriate, and that's what you and everyone else who agrees with you are saying. It is incorrect, because since the article says it's an operating system, and GNU Project made the operating system except for the current kernel, Linux is only the right name for it if you are talking about the kernel (because without the GNU in GNU/Linux, the GNU contribution is gone in the name and thus refers to a kernel). The logical thing to do is either change the article or rename the article. --Iambus

Sorry that was Dutch, Doublure=Double. Mion (talk) 01:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. --Iambus

1. Why delete Linux kernel, it has good info, it just needs to be renamed "Linux". 2. I explained why GNU/Linux is not a good term, it's mainly for pushing POV and political points, BTW that's why you see so many people bitching about it, because they want to push a POV. 3. No need because the material from this current Linux should simple be moved to appropriate articles. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Different things have different names. A kernel is just ONE component that makes up a complete operating system. There is one kernel named Linux. To have a complete and usable operating system many more different programs have to be put to work together with a kernel. A kernel by itself would be complete useless. A user would need a lot more than if he wanted to do something as simple as write a document and send it by E-mail. These other different programs beyond the kernel that would make that simple act possible have been written by hundreds of different programmers. When their programs are used with any kernel why should the entire set thus formed have to be named after just one program in this case the kernel with which I could not do honestly any task? Then which words to use to name a complete operating system?
It has been clearly demonstrated that since most of the programs that are used to make a complete and truly functional operating system come from the GNU project it is logical and fair that the operating system that is functional and usable thanks mainly to GNU software be called GNU plus the name of the kernel if you wish. A good example is Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. This operating system demonstrates that the kernel Linux can be easily replaced but that the GNU software continues to be used. Operating systems such as Debian, gNewSense, Ubuntu, etc that function thanks to the addition of essential GNU software and that use the kernel Linux are rightly called GNU/Linux.--Grandscribe (talk) 02:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Grandscribe here. --Iambus

This is original research and personal opinion, so it's pretty irrelevant for Misplaced Pages. We should use the term that is used by most of the people and by the press and it's in dictionaries. Also the kernel is the most important part of the OS, some CS people call it the OS. It's also the part that runs all the time, even when you type now on your computer to reply to me you use the kernel however you don't use GNU tools (unless you used a text browser that's released by GNU or "cat" to contribute to Misplaced Pages) nor do you use a compiler, right? Please don't come with the libc argument, that's silly almost all the OS use libc and there no push to call them GNU/something. My proposal however sidesteps this issue, we don't even talk about "OS" we talk about Linux and about Linux distributions and about different components but separately there's no reason to pretend like there's a unitary Linux OS because there isn't there is the kernel and there are distributions that use different components, we can very well treat all the things that we treat in this article in the article about the kernel, distributions, tools, etc. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

(Reply to man with one shoe) It's not just original research and personal opinion. I gave sources. Furthermore the number of computer book authors that use the name GNU/Linux is growing. Misplaced Pages should not forbid use of this term.--Grandscribe (talk) 09:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

So your only argument is that because a lot of people use the term "Linux" we should? Many people use the term aeroplane or airplane to describe what Misplaced Pages calls Fixed-wing aircraft. And how do you determine popularity, and why should we use it? Show me the law here that says "If a lot of people use this term, Misplaced Pages should". --User:Iambus | talk 03:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all there's a rule that you can't use Misplaced Pages as reference, plus a bad article name doesn't justify another. In any language the name of a thing is what most of the people use to call that thing. Misplaced Pages also has a rule to use references, for Linux I can bring 500,000,000 or so references, I think that's plenty, don't you think? Please bring GNU/Linux references form mainstream press. You might find some, but those are just some exceptions, the overwhelming majority of journalists use "Linux". But anyway, my proposal is to get rid of this debate and put all the content from this article in article about kernel, article about distributions in general, article about GNU, article about specific distributions, article about different tools: gcc, kde, gnome, and so on, why would that not work? man with one red shoe (talk) 04:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

1. I wasn't using Misplaced Pages as a reference. 2. No, the name of something is what some people call it. There are often multiple names for one thing, and there are often names for things that appear in mainstream media but are not really true. 3. There is an expression, "Quality not quantity". Many mainstream sources doesn't have to mean quality, correct, or true, just mainstream. To me, the validity of a source is not determined by its mainstream-ness, so it doesn't matter.

You have spoken of POV-promotion and pushing, but oddly you don't think you're pushing yours. This is flawed logic, see Two wrongs make a right, where it is identified as a fallacy. I have no problem with moving parts of this article around to different articles, but I would like a consensus, e.g. editors other than us expressing their view here. --User:Iambus | talk 04:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a simple explanation for POV, Stallman himself declared that the GNU/Linux name was invented for the purpose to promote GNU and promote freedom, etc. While I understand that most of the people who comment on this page are politically motivated to promote GNU, freedom, etc, I am not politically motivated to promote non-freedom, non-GNU (or to hit GNU and hope to die) I simply say that we need to use what references show.

Again to defuse this issue that is discussed on 10 pages of the talk page of this article and is not going to end I propose to do away with this page and put all the relevant information in the pages where it belongs, I don't see any info in this page that can't be put either in the page about kernel, the page about distributions or the page about GNU. But I don't think you'd agree with this because you actually want to hijack the name of "Linux", it's not that you want to just slap "GNU" onto it, you want to capitalize on the popularity of the "Linux" term to promote GNU (which again in other settings would not be a bad thing, but Misplaced Pages is not to be used for promoting projects, ideals, etc -- that's POV pushing, by not allowing it I don't push an "opposite" POV I simple protect Misplaced Pages from misuse). -- man with one red shoe (talk) 05:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Man with the red shoe says that the kernel is the "most" important component of an OS. If we put this kernel Linux alone on a computer what will the user be able to do? Stare at an empty dark screen? Will this component alone give your computer network capabilities? Create a simple text document? Wouldn't I have to use a compiler to install additional software that will make the computer useful?

Very nice - but none of these are requirements for an Operating system. A user is not even required, as strange as this may sound to people who think that a computer is a gadget with a keyboard, mouse and screen. You need an operating system for your PIM, DVD-player, router, telephone etc. All of these can run (and a lot do) Linux - and (almost none) run GNU.

Its once more a misunderstanding about what an operating system is. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 15:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It was said that we should fix this argument by looking only at what the newspapers say?. That makes no sense. Imagine if lawyers would only be allowed to solve their cases by using only what the newspapers said? If medical doctors had to determine what they should call things in their profession using the words given to them only by newspapers??? Or doing a Google search word count? Everyone knows that they would talk to other colleagues in their respective professions to exchange reliable information.

The references I and others have given do not come from wikipedia itself but from authors that know well what they are writing about. They are professionals in the computer field. Isn't it a bit twisted to say that GNU wants to hijack the word Linux? Isn't it the other way around by trying to name Linux all systems that use the kernel Linus even though it is just ONE single program? Most distributions come with a large number of important programs from a single source: the GNU project. GNU provides libraries, editors, compilers, debuggers, etc. Can anyone do any useful thing on a computer without using the GNU software and instead use just the kernel? This kernel can be replaced as the distribution Debian GNU/kFreeBSD has demonstrated. The kernel Linux was removed and this fully functional operating system is based on the kernel of FreeBSD. The use of the name GNU/Linux for systems that combine the kernel Linux and the GNU software is right.--Grandscribe (talk) 10:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This makes absolutely no sense. Because you've confused what an Operating system is. An operating system is not: "a lot of tools ... and then the kernel". An Operating system is the interface between hardware and the user-programs.

GNU has provided us with a lot of nice and very useful tools. But the interface between the hardware and user-programs is the kernel. One could make an (good) argument for libc+Kernel being the major interface - but then your argument would again fall to the ground... Because quite a lot of Linux systems aren't running glibc - but instead use dietlibc or uClibc.

There are flavours of Linux running with primarily BSD tools, and more running with GNU tools - and even some running without both (µClinux, any busybox OS etc.).

This is just about the same confusion as that caused by Windows/MS-DOS, where people think that an Operating system is the high-level GUI or TUI. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems that you arguments are going off course. You are focused on speaking about embedded devices. Let's try to bring all this back on the right track. The whole point of this RFC is to discuss if it is ok in Misplaced Pages that articles that cover operating system distributions that contain the kernel Linux and numerous GNU software to carry out important system tasks can be named GNU/Linux. The topic of the discussion is very concrete. It is not about embedded devices but about the naming that should be used for the operating system distributions that run on a personal computer and that use the kernel Linux and GNU software such as Debian GNU/Linux, Ubuntu, gNewSense.--Grandscribe (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that i'm off course. As we are talking about an Operating system's - we need to have a clear idea of what it is. And embedded systems are an example of the basics of operating systems (they need to be). They don't contain all the fluff that user-space nowadays is filled with - its precisely all this fluff that makes it hard to see the basics. There is no consensus amongst the various distributions to call them GNU/Linux - so an argument is made, that Linux isn't an operating system without the GNU stuff. This is wrong. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kim D, Congratulations for keeping a cool discussion even if there's disagreement. Back on the topic now. If I understand your reasoning you mean that a kernel is at the same time an operating system and a kernel? I had learned that a kernel is one important component of an operating system but that it alone doesn't constitute an operating system according to Andrew S. Tanenbaum and Jochen Liedtke. Another question should distributions be named only after the kernel they use? And why?--Grandscribe (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

No, of course the kernel is not the only part of an Operating system. You need programs in user-space as well, amongst other things, you need process-management tools (init,kill,ps...), you need filesystem management (mount,umount,fsck...), you'll need programs to attach and detach devices, interfaces to system components (such as the network interfaces (ifconfig, netstat,...)), you'll need some way of interfacing with the system (shell,..) etc.

But notice that all of these components are low-level, and in fact most of these are system-dependent (they need to be rather tightly coupled to the kernel) - and very few are programs in the GNU suite. Take a look at busybox's programs - most of these are the components that are needed for Linux (or other Unix's) to become usable. (there's some "fluff" there - but all the basics are covered).

In the case of *nix flavour systems, the kernel (linux, solaris, bsd, aix...) names the operating system (and the distribution). What individual distributions call themselves is of course their choice, but in general all of the distributions are named by the kernel. --Kim D. Petersen (talk)

We agree that a kernel is one important component of an operating system. By definition a distribution is a bundle of software. If the situation is that a distribution contains besides the kernel a long list of essential software from a single source for example the GNU project, it makes sense to identify such a distribution with the "label" a GNU/Linux distribution. If a distribution uses mainly a kernel and one or two non-GNU software it would also make sense for everyone to call that distribution a Linux distribution which is the case in the examples you gave of embeded devices though that is not exactly what is under discussion. When a non-biased computer user discovers that much of the essential software in his Debian GNU/Linux, gNewSense, Ubuntu, etc, distribution is GNU software such as bash, gnome, GIMP, gzip, the GNU compiler collection, the GNU C library, GNU core utils,GNU Binary utilities,GRUB, tar, GNU grep, GNU Readline, etc (without using as an argument the fact that most of the software including non-GNU software like the kernel Linux is released under the GNU General Public license) it makes a lot of sense to name that specific distribution GNU/Linux. It's not a personal attack. It's a question of better defining these mentioned distributions.--Grandscribe (talk) 09:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It makes just as much sense to call it a BSD/Linux distribution, or how about MIT/Linux distribution, based either upon base tools and/or on base license. The trouble here is that now you aren't speaking about what is correct or not. You are speaking "fair" or "makes sense". (to whom btw? Linus? Theodore T'so? Stallman? Alan Cox? Redhat? FSF?) - it is not Misplaced Pages's job to determine what is "fair" or "makes sense", in fact this is specifically not allowed. As i said i personally sympathize with the GNU/Linux naming (i called my company lignus for a reason) - but i also understand the difference between what is the real world - and wishes. (btw. the only component you mention that makes sense to argue about is glibc - all others have standard alternatives in most distributions). --Kim D. Petersen (talk)

Ok. It is not wikipedia's job to be fair. Shouldn't it give lay people using the Encyclopedia as reference the clearest description of the subject covered?. Nobody has suggested the kernel Linux has to be called GNU/Linux. That kernel will always be named Linux. It will remain the authorship of Linus Torvalds. I didn't see anyone ask that articles about embedded devices that use the kernel Linux plus any other individual piece of software be called GNU/Linux. The reason of this RFC was that there are a few articles where specific distributions using the kernel Linux plus the GNU software as their basis, NOT all distributions, are described as GNU/Linux distributions. There are many computer book authors that use GNU/Linux to name these type of distribution. No one has asked that ALL distributions that contain the kernel Linux and zero GNU software be named GNU/Linux. I don't think you have to worry the software in minimal embedded systems risks being called GNU/Linux. Many suggest wikipedia keeps both terms to name those distributions(Debian, gNewSense, Ubuntu): Linux and GNU/Linux. To "rule" that those distributions can only be described as Linux distributions because of a mere number of 3 votes in the previous RFC hurts the reliability of wikipedia and adds confusion to the subject. It's an unnecessary counterproductive move.--Grandscribe (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The "clearest description" would certainly not be "GNU/Linux". That's simply a different arbitrary call. The term "GNU/Linux" is and always has been more political than scientific. Furthermore, RfCs are not votes; they're gauges of community opinion, and the previous one provided a solid basis argument-wise for the current state of affairs even if there was no empirical majority "vote". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Calling it GNU/Linux is a political statement. I happen to agree with the political basis for it - but i also very aware that it is political, and thus has no place on Misplaced Pages, except of course if suddenly Linus (and others) change their minds, in which case it becomes the official name. But i'm not holding my breath. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a matter of calling a spade a spade. Red Hat, Debian etc. contain more GNU than they contain Linux kernel, so it just makes sense to call it GNU or GNU/Linux. "Linux" could be called political. It's pushed by companies who sell proprietary software who also want to sell free software (or related services) while sheltering their customers from the message that computer users deserve certain freedoms from all software. --Gronky (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't "make sense" to do this, because no other software project is labelled in this way. And the argument that "Linux" is pushed by proprietary vendors instead of "GNU/Linux" is a specious conspiracy theory. There's no evidence that this is true, and while I'd expected it from the now-banned User:Lightedbulb, I didn't expect it from someone with some common sense. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Describing certain distributions as GNU/Linux has nothing to do with politics. It is based on the reality of those distributions that contain mainly GNU software as their basis. The term GNU/Linux must be kept because it reflects the use of that name by numerous authors. We should not seek to remove GNU by looking for ways to justify deleting them from articles because of "antipathy". There never was a "consensus" to remove GNU/Linux. A vote of 3 from the previous RFC is not a solid argument to back that. "Science" is based on facts. It's fact that the distributions under discussion contain the largest number of software from one single source: the GNU project. The term GNU/Linux merely reflects that fact. It doesn't necessarily mean that you agree or like the ideas that may be associated with GNU.-Grandscribe (talk) 07:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"Certain distributions" can call themselves GNU/Linux, that is certainly their right, and of course their articles, should call them by their chosen name. But that debian calls itself GNU/Linux does not "rub off" to all other distributions - nor does it "rub off" on what we call the operating system itself.

I contest very much that Linux distributions consists of "mainly GNU software" (as either their basis or completely). Yes, i've read the line-count paper - but he counts everything, not what is typically in an installation. Or what is needed for the system to run. It also seems to be that people are cherry picking his comment that there (paraphrased) is basis for calling it GNU/Linux - since he immediately also says that there is ample basis for just calling it Linux.

For instance remove the gcc compiler suite (gcc,gdb,bison,...) - and the figures are quite different. And you don't need these to run a system at all. (that goes for a lot of components - but go down to the basis - and the system will not be "mainly GNU software" by his figures. Sorry. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It also misrepresents the history of the project. Linux was written to be an operating system, in the same way that Minix is an operating system. That the quickest and best way to add functionality was to use software from the GNU project (as used by contemporary hobbyists on other Unixes) is true, but the whole "this is a complete operating system which just lacks a kernel" thing is historical revisionism which was retconned into the history of GNU by the FSF.

Regardless of this, though, the point is that regardless of the composition of the system, the aggregate is most commonly referred to in its entirety as Linux, and the encyclopedia's guidelines suggest that in the absense of an authority to say otherwise that this is how we should name the aggregate. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

GNU had a kernel, the project backfired and they abandoned it in search of a new one. It was fully complete, except for the kernel, so they found Linux (which happened to be licenced under the free licence, so the GNU Project could use it) and used it. Linus Torvalds was doing it for fun, and then the GNU Project, who could actually use it, used it. And how can I explain two users popping up on Man with Red Shoe's side in the time of a day? Recruiting perhaps?

Now, why did Kim D. Petersen choose to bring up MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows, which are two different operating systems? --User:Iambus | talk 17:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I chose Win and MS because they are the OS's that most people have migrated from. And those are the users that i most commonly see with that particular misconception (frankly MS is hardly an OS at all). And i can most certainly assure you that i've not been recruited. I've commented here before (add: even with the same context). Please apply some good sense instead of assuming bad faith - Ok? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

And GNU didn't have a kernel, it wasn't finished. And i know this from experience, since i was one of those waiting (eagerly) for the Hurd, since the 90's. Linux with the Slackware distribution was commercial way before the GNU people declared for Linux. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition, if the kernel is "only a component" and if it's such a trivial piece of software why GNU took more than 20 years and still is not able to launch a viable kernel that competes with Linux. To me this "only a component" sounds exactly like when people call evolution "only a theory". man with one red shoe (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I didn't recruit anybody, I don't have friends over there. man with one red shoe (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Did anyone say a kernel is trivial? The point is that although it is an important component it is only one component. A kernel is one component of an operating system. A kernel is not the whole operating system. Linus Torvalds and the other programmers who helped him wrote a kernel, a good one. But they did not write all of the other required components, did they?--Grandscribe (talk) 22:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death, and many editors don't rush to reply every time when a new user/account comes forth with The Truth and presents ideas that seem to be based on disagreement with the project's policies, which require due weight and use of common names. There was a recruitment issue earlier though, but it was on the other side of the debate and consisted of one user recruiting his multiple personalities. Prolog (talk) 00:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of wikipedia policies it would be good to remember them especially when treating new users:

• Be polite
• Assume good faith
• No personal attacks
• Be welcoming

--Grandscribe (talk) 20:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

People Fighting About GNU/Linux Or Linux Contributes Nothing Useful To The World

Sign here if you agree with this position. 69.196.135.44 (talk) 22:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Well, I was one fighting on this page, but I have to admit this is true. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

A comment

I don't think it contributes because I'm taking a defensive position but, I think it's worth addressing because Linux and GNU/Linux have different meanings. Mike92591 (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Please don't start a new flood

User:Thumperward, you have failed to get the support you sought with this Rfc. Please stop the new wave of "GNU/" deletions you've started. You chose the forum, the procedure etc. now accept the result. Last time I counted, there were six people supporting each side on terminology, and no one saying anything about your call for consistency. --Gronky (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm bemused that you would refer to the above discussion as having been a "failure" or "rejection" on my behalf. The purpose of the RfC is to generate commentary from others, not to have a vote, and it's ongoing. But if you're going to continue a singlehanded edit war on the topic (while at every stage blaming me for your actions), at least have the decency not to use misleading edit summaries whereby you claim to be restoring an old version which doesn't exist. I'm still waiting for you to reply honestly to why consensus isn't beneficial, or for you to demonstrate that you understand how an RfC works. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

After your flood last Summer, I don't think your helping your case by insulting singlehandedness. This Rfc, Talk:gNewSense, and the complaints on your talk page have shown me that I'm not alone on this one. I'll comment on a consensus if you can point me to one. An Rfc was called, twelve or so people contributed, most dug their heels in on one side or the other, there are no new people entering the debate, and there's as much support for GNU/Linux as their is for Linux. There's nothing to comment on. You looked for support, didn't get it. --Gronky (talk) 22:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't look for "support", I looked for comments. The purpose of the RfC is to gauge community opinion, not to have an up-or-down vote. Unanimity was never going to happen, but lots of well-reasoned arguments for consistent use of the most common name have been given, while there's been little added on the other side. An RfC is a necessary first step in the path of dispute resolution, which is where this will go next if the partisan edit warring doesn't stop. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is time for some sort of dispute resolution on this. Gronky has made several inappropriate edits with misleading edit summaries, and I have reverted several of them. I am not interested in entering this silly edit war, but there is no end in sight unless there is a formal ruling on this matter.

For the time being I strongly suggest both User:Thumperward and User:Gronky voluntarily refrain from changing references to Linux to GNU/Linux and vice versa. —BradV 22:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, happy to leave off for now. RfCs are meant to be open for a month, and I reckon there's still plenty of dicsussion left in this one. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Gronky, there may (and probably is) some history here that we can't determine. But you are the one coming across currently as the unreasonable one. You tally is btw. wrong (while noting that this wasn't a vote) it comes to: GNU/Linux: 2(3), Ambivalent/Don't care: 2, Linux: 6(7). Please stay cool - ok? --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 23:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

My count of those who seem to have taken a position is:

• Linux: Thumperward, BradV, Deep Alexander, Man with one red shoe, Kim Dabelstein Petersen, Writtenonsand
• GNU/Linux: Gronky, Mion, Mako, Grandscribe, AVRS, Iambus

That, FWIW, is how I got my 6/6 figure. I know this isn't a vote.

I'm pretty surprised my behaviour is being criticised. Maybe indeed it's because I assume something is obvious when it actually isn't. So I'll summarise the history as briefly as possible:

The background of all this

(outdenting) Last Summer and Autumn, after an Rfc with weak participation where 2-3 people favoured GNU/Linux and 4-6 people favoured "Linux", Thumperward declared there was consensus for all mentions of "GNU/Linux" to be removed from Misplaced Pages (except for mentions of the naming controversy). He then set to implementing this. I pointed out that his actions did not have the backing of any real consensus, and I undid some of his removals of "GNU/", but he reverted me. At the time, he was averaging 1,200 edits per month, so I, and others who disagreed with him, quickly learned that trying to stop him was just a waste of our time.

The result was that "GNU/Linux" was erased by one editor while those who objected were ignored and their ability to participate in the writing of Misplaced Pages was rendered useless (Misplaced Pages's community process failed - I called this the "edit flood" problem).

Recently, the issue resurfaced because Jimbo Wales, Simon Phipps, Dkrogers, NerdyNSK, voiced their objection to Thumperward's actions, on his talk page and on Talk:gNewSense. So Thumperward opened this Rfc. As mentioned above, and I know it's not a vote, but there's 6 advocates for each term. There is clearly no consensus for the systematic removal of either term from Misplaced Pages. Doing so would be wrong, but...

A few minutes ago, Thumperward went back to removing all mentions of "GNU/" anyway. I've tried to undo these removals. Since his removals of "GNU/" are combined with other trivial changes, I've done the reverts as best as I could by hand so as not to discard his other tweaks. So I'm surprised I get criticised and reverted in such an organised way. --Gronky (talk) 00:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Reply:

• Firstly, you're yet again characterising the RfC process as a vote. There was sufficient participation last time for a position to be drafted and then implemented, and there was (as now) no adequate rebuttal of the arguments given. While I was making a lot of edits at the time, there was no move on behalf of any of those who disagreed with me towards Misplaced Pages dispute resolution process. Indeed, the response taken was specifically conducted in a manner which appeared to be avoiding such a process - forum shopping (edits were discussed on individual talk pages rather than linking back to the previous discussions on this one), stealth edits to insert the term "GNU/Linux" in the form GNU/Linux or GNU/Linux so as to make it more difficult to detect links to that page, and (in some cases, though unrelated to you) edit warring with multiple sockpuppets. While you've spent over six months decrying my actions, including soapboxing on your user page, it's always been me that's taken steps towards formal resolution.
• Secondly, you're yet again characterising loud opposition from a number of individuals as being evidence of there being "no consensus". Consensus does not imply a unanimous vote. Of those contesting the decision, several have either direct links to the FSF (the organisation's webmaster, the founder of Misplaced Pages, the head of Sun's open source division) or are otherwise declared partisans. In this environment, there is obviously never going to be unanimity. However, the project as a whole can still decide, by discussion and reference to the project's guidelines, that a position has approval. I've worked to generate this consensus by engaging in direct debate on a number of occasions, by pointing to WP's style guidelines and policies, and by opening formal RfCs for further input.
• Thirdly, this edit is not an attempt to restore a previous version without disturbing other edits. It's a full reversal of the article's position. I can surmise that the reason for this is that having the article be internally inconsistent would be a bad thing. But having the project be globally inconsistent is also bad, which is the whole reason for this discussion.

Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with user Gronky. User Thumperward tried to build a "consensus" against the use of GNU/Linux in Misplaced Pages. It didn't happen. Because Thumperward himself (originator of the previous RFC and of the current one!!!) and two other users didn't like to see GNU is not a solid or valid reason to forbid the use of the name GNU/Linux to describe the distributions that contain the largest number of software from the GNU project. It is a fact not politics. --Grandscribe (talk) 08:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Consistency is desirable, but it's not a be all and end all requirement. It is harmful when facts are misrepresented in order to achieve consistency. The fact is that all of "Linux", "GNU/Linux" and "GNU+Linux" are used to refer to the operating system. Your job as an editor is to make the readers aware of this fact, your job is not to consistently use only one of them through-out Misplaced Pages to make it look like the "correct" term to use -- and that's what it is going to look like, because people expect encyclopedias give correct answers and use correct terms. -- parasti  17:05, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no "correct" term. The best we can do is to use the most common one and make it abundantly clear what the definition is being taken to be. It most certainly isn't Misplaced Pages's "job" to increase awareness of minority terms, so long as they are provided sufficient explanation to inform readers as to what they mean. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

When discussing an operating system made of GNU + Linux, and when GNU is the much larger contribution, I don't think cutting GNU from the name can ever be part of any overall hope to make clarity abundant. --Gronky (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

For some reason the William Jefferson Clinton page not only misspells the man's first name, it omits his middle name entirely! Surely clarity would only be increased by using the full name, even though it is not the most common name used to refer to the subject? (before we nitpick the analogy here, let's point out that it's obviously imperfect because Bill Clinton, unlike the Free Software Foundation, is an authority on his own name.) Policy actively favours more common names over "more accurate" names, even accepting the falsehood that there is an accuracy element to the "GNU/Linux" name. For what it's worth, dwheeler's guide happened to lump the whole of GNOME in with GNU (which evidently doesn't happen in non-GNOME distros) and points out that even then GNU software does not form a plurality of code in the average Linux distro, so the counterargument that "GNU/Linux" is no more valid than "GNU/X/BSD/Mozilla/Linux" is equally well upheld by the paper in question. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The best Misplaced Pages can do is to not undermine its own standards in order to achieve consistency. What's different in changing all mention of one valid term to another valid term from changing. for instance, all American English spelling to British English spelling? -- parasti  00:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Position by User:Localzuk

I think it is pretty obvious what my position is on this issue - the term 'Linux' should be the most commonly used one, as it is the term most commonly used by a) the media b) companies and c) normal people. The only people who use the GNU/Linux name are those tied in with the FSF - such as Sun, Debian, and the FSF themselves. There is no definitive name for the OS called Linux, as it is not created by one organisation. Why should we ignore the prior nameing rules simply because the FSF has decreed it? Linus has said the exact opposite - that it should be called Linux. So it seems to me that both of those should be ignored and the rule of common sense be used. If you start using 'GNU/Linux' all over the place, interchangably with Linux on its own, it will lead to confusion. Many people simply do not know what GNU/Linux is but do know what Linux is.-Localzuk 19:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Position by man with one red shoe (talk)

I think we should not use GNU/Linux at all, the only place where is appropriate is in the name of the distros that use such a name. The name is just an invention of RMS to promote GNU and its ideals. I am not going to comment if those ideas are good or bad, but the issue here at hand is that Misplaced Pages should not promote products and should not promote ideals (at least not in an explicit way). While I understand that many people are fans of RMS and of FSF and they are determined to push this name as the "correct" one there's no such thing as a correct term, and GNU/Linux definitely isn't the one. Linux was used long time before RMS even thought of "GNU/Linux", most of the people, the press, companies simple use "Linux", most of the distributions use Linux too. In any language the "correct" term for anything is the one that's mostly used by people. In addition most of the OSes are named after the kernel not after the compiler, license or some userspace tools, the kernel is the most important part of a OS, the kernel is actually an OS for many embedded devices, so a kernel is the minimum OS possible, you can add more stuff but that's not essential.

I think that a solution to this conflict is to not talk about a "Linux OS", we can circumvent this by talking about Linux (the kernel), Linux distributions, GNU project, KDE, GNOME, etc. separately and where is relevant to talk about them. Most of the problems that we encounter in this page are due to the fact that there isn't a (one) "Linux OS" there's no such thing, there are Linux based distributions or "Linux distributions", I think that all the material in this page can be distributed to the articles that I mentioned without losing anything essential. Once is done we need to rename Linux kernel back to the proper name "Linux" and link content either to Linux, Linux distribution, and GNU, depending on the context. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 20:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

What I don’t like here is the word “distribution”.

• It makes 10 disks a distribution of something that only takes 1/6 of a disk.
• Debian GNU/Linux becomes “Linux distribution”, Debian GNU/Hurd becomes “GNU”, and what does Debian GNU/kFreeBSD become? This is probably a different problem than “Linux distribution” vs “GNU/Linux distribution”, or something like “GNU and Linux distribution” (the latter and/or similar terms, IMO, should be used for systems that identify themselves as GNU/Linux or Linux and GNU, if “distribution” is used).
• Were it not for article size, I’d just mention that in Unix-like. Anyway, a lot of stuff in Linux distribution belongs in Unix-like.
• A guess: are people starting to choose operating systems based on what software is packaged on the discs by default? How much does that depend on the quality of their Internet connection, rather than just simple cost?

--AVRS (talk) 21:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment, that proposal is only second choice, if people don't see the merit of it so be it, but I am very determined about the first part, we shouldn't use "GNU/Linux" in Misplaced Pages only because RMS says so. -- man with one red shoe (talk) 21:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Controversy Section

User Man with one red shoe has deleted the entire section on the GNU/Linux naming controversy in this article. I asked him on his talk page to get consensus here for this edit, but he has not done so yet, so I am asking: Does the naming controversy warrant mention in the article, or is the link in the lead section sufficient? —BradV 21:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see reason to remove that section. --Gronky (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

So it's not just me then. I've restored it. —BradV 21:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all you didn't ask me to take this to talk page, you said this "wait until the discussion on the talk page has run its course", there was no discussion on talk page about this section, now that you opened the discussion you could have waited for me to give a reply... man with one red shoe (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a link to controversy in the lead section. I think any further discussion about the name should be in controversy article, otherwise it's simply a matter of WP:WEIGHT, we don't need to discuss too much about a issue like this one, that's why there's a separate article, to have the issue treated there, not to clutter this article with "controversies".... man with one red shoe (talk) 22:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I think this Talk page plus the controversy article establishes that it's worth a paragraph :) If we were to delete all sections from this article that have their own article, most of the article would be gone. --Gronky (talk) 22:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

That would not be a bad idea, I think most of the stuff should be in Linux kernel and Linux distribution pages. The name is mentioned the controversy article is linked, why have a separate section about "controversy" how is that not WP:WEIGHT, since this article is about Linux not about controversies? -- man with one red shoe (talk) 22:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Noteworthiness: As Gronky mentions, given the amount of discussion above and elsewhere about what to call it, it seems the topic is pretty noteworthy.

Topicality: The naming "issue" is about Linux. How is that not relevant in an article also about Linux? Why would it belong in the kernel or distribution page? Edit: Oh, sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote. 18:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that the issue is noteworthy and about Linux itself, I think there are a couple of reasonable options:

• Per the Misplaced Pages:Summary_style guideline, we could have a paragraph summarizing the issue here, with a link to the main article. This is how the article was, until it was removed.
• Alternately, we could discuss it in a few sentences in the "Copyright and naming" section and have a "See also" link.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 02:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Refactoring with Linux kernel

This article and Linux kernel cover a lot of the same ground. The Linux kernel article is mostly a superset of this article, with the addition of some technical and versioning information.

I suspect it got this way because of the dual duty that "Linux" performs: "Linux"-as-a-kernel and "Linux"-as-an-operating-system. I'm aware of the distinction and the synecdoche... Given the content of this article, I think that sections 1-3 of Linux kernel mostly belong here. Thought I'd seek opinions before I do some refactoring.

Thanks, WalterGR (talk | contributions) 18:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

1. http://www.topology.org/linux/lingl.html
2. http://librenix.com/?inode=2312?