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Appeal of community ban of Iantresman

Initiated by Stifle (talk) at 10:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Stifle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• Iantresman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the reques

• Notified Iantresman here
• I will soon leave talk page messages for other users who participated in the CSN discussion. They can then drop by here and add themselves if they wish.
• Messages left in the following diffs: Stifle (talk) 10:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Not applicable as the matter is an appeal of a community ban. There was no RFC or other prior dispute resolution before the matter was landed at WP:CSN.

Statement by User:Stifle

At the Community Sanction Noticeboard around nine months ago, User:Iantresman was banned with just over 5 hours' discussion. He has indicated a desire to appeal this ban and I am opening it here on his behalf. I feel that while Iantresman was disruptive at the time, the punishment was excessive and the ban should be reduced to time served, perhaps with probation or an editing supervision. Stifle (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

In response to JoshuaZ and for the avoidance of doubt, I would be inclined to unblock Iantresman to give him a second chance to comply with editing norms. Stifle (talk) 12:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Iantresman

I feel that an appeal is warranted because some allegations in my Community Ban proposal (a) are now shown to be false, and (2) have misled other contributing editors. Other allegations are (3) unsupported by any examples, or the previous ArbCom case, and (4) there was no due process. For example:

• Allegations made in my Community ban proposal, that I harassed an editor from Misplaced Pages, were false:

• JoshuaZ stated that I (1) "repeatedly harassed User:ScienceApologist who eventually left the project over a variety of issues, including Ian's behavior." (2) was "now repeating the exact same thing with a relatively new user User:Mainstream astronomy". A later arbitration case discovered that ScienceApologist himself been using the username Mainstream astronomy, together with the usernames Fradulent Ideas, Nondistinguished, and Velikovsky.
• JoshuaZ was mislead, twice. Other participating editors where also mislead, for example (1) "I would not object to a community ban. After Mainstream astromony posted on his user page that he was leaving directly as a result of Iantresman's harassment," (2) "Strongest possible support. If you drive someone from Misplaced Pages and you haven't been community banned, you damned well better be" (3) "It's safe to say this guy is done editing here--driving someone from Misplaced Pages by means of harassment" (4) "Endorse community ban. Driving good editors away cannot be tolerated "

• Allegations that a I am a pseudoscience POV-pusher are not supported by any evidence:

• JoshuaZ also stated that I am "a general POV-warrior of all sorts of pseudoscience and fringe science ideas", but no evidence has ever been provided by him or anyone else that I push any view at the expense of another. As commented by User Bladestorm (the last Community ban comment) "I've looked through this sanction discussion several times, and, in fact, I've yet to find a single case of actual proof against Ian, beyond the arbcom."
• JoshuaZ stated I "has been placed on probation by the ArbCom which has reduced but by no means eleminated his POV pushing", but ArbCom never found that I was guilty of pseudoscience POV pushing.

Significant loss of editing privilidges must require due process; Misplaced Pages makes editing evidence readily avaialble, and without the right to reply to allegations, Misplaced Pages becomes a kangaroo court. Half a dozen editors basing their judgement on false or misleading evidence, and curtailing the right to reply, is not conensus.

• I will also remind JoshuZ that my previous ArbCom appeal was not aware that some of Community ban allegations were false, nor aware of the ArbCom discussion on "ScienceApologist has used sockpuppets abusively" where you noted that you were "not happy with SA's sockpuppetry"

--Iantresman (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Addendum statement (pasted on behalf of Ian Tresman by --feline1 (talk) 14:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC) )

• ScienceApologist, below, has acused me of using sockspuppets during this appeal, and of personal attacks against him. Within the hour I was Checkusered, and cleared by Thatcher131. Removing Sock templates and an apology is the traditional respsonse, especially when our previous Arbcom found that ScienceApologist had been both uncivil and failed to extend good faith, towards me.
• Raul654, below, thought that I had a second appeal turned down a few days ago. But ArbCom had not replied to my request to make an appeal at any time this year, and no second appeal was made (is there a public record to the contrary?). FloNight did email me yesterday to say that "The Committee had elected to not over turn the Community ban", but I did not ask ArbCom to overturn the ban, I asked for an appeal (ie. due process). I suspect that "asking for an appeal" is ambgiguous as it is not clear whether asking is the actual appeal, or a request to subsequently make an appeal.
• Charles Matthews, below, has noted my procedural point (4), but said nothing about my evidential points (1) - (3); Were two editors driven from Misplaced Pages? --Iantresman (talk)
• Sam Blacketer, below, notes whether my "editing cause significant disruption to the cause of writing a neutral, high quality encyclopaedia". There have been no complaints regarding my other articles, (and many others), most with extensive citations, and in many cases, my own contributed graphics; I also had no complaints as a professional writer in the 1990s, writing my Masters Thesis in the 1980s, or editing a magazine in the 1990s. With a science degree, I think I understand neutrality, verifiability and reliable sources (and that's all verifiable). I don't do "disruption", though some have claimed it. But I have been persistent, and would be again if due process ever fails you. --Iantresman (talk) 14:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:JoshuaZ

Against what may be my better judgement, I'm writing an off-the-cuff statement here. I may expand this later. For now, I would like to remind the ArbCom that it declined to hear an almost identical appeal from Iantresman a few months ago (albeit before the most recent election). If no one is inclined to unblock then no one wants to unblock and that's more or less the end of the matter. If Ian wants to improve his behavior and convince the community that he can become a productive enough member that his presence would be helpful that something he should have someone take up on ANI or AN and see if he can get a consensus to unblock. However, that doesn't look likely. Ian's request to appeal appears to not include any perception or understanding that he might have been doing anything that earned him his block which does not bode well. JoshuaZ (talk) 12:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Kwsn-pub

I'm on a library computer right now, but I'm currently looking over the ban discussion. From what I see the primary motivation for the ban was the attacks on ScientistApologist, which seemed to be fueled by revenge from previous attacks by SA. It was stated several times that those attacks drove SA from the project, when in fact it was stated he was already leaving. An interesting item to me is the fact that he was on probation already, and banning him from the areas he was a "problem editor" in could have easily solved the problems from my standpoint. Also, the time from opening of discussion to the block disturbs me, as does the lack of solid evidence. As such, as an admin, I am willing to unblock for arbcom purposes only. Kwsn-pub (talk) 13:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Just confirming on my admin account this is my stance, nothing else. Kwsn (Ni!) 01:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts by AGK

Tentatively, I suggest that Iantresman be unbanned: it has long been the case that Misplaced Pages always keep an open mind, even in cases where a user has contributed abusively. There is a chance here; Iantresman is not a lost cause, but simply requires the Community (or the Committee) to implement remedial measures to assist him in rediscovering his ability to edit constructively.

I suggest that such remedial measures be, for example, the implementation of a mentoring system, whereby one or more mentors are appointed for Iantresman, as has been utilised in the past. Acceptance of the appointed mentor would be an unavoidable condition, one hopes, for Iantresman, should his ban be lifted by the Committee.

On a tangential note, I would observe that a Request for Arbitration is not the standard method for hearing banned user appeals. The traditional "workshop, proposed decision, etc." structure is not ideally suited for efficient hearing of ban appeals. In fact, it seems to me that all appeals are heard by the Committee via their private mailing list. That, however, is semantics; with regards to the request to be unbanned, I hold that, on a principle of "keeping the door open" for those that truly wish to contribute, the Committee should consider reducing Iantresman's ban to a mentoring remedy, and proceeding accordingly. Anthøny 13:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

As something of a clarification, I am willing to unblock this user, which technically means the community-ban principle is now no longer applicable. Having said that, such an unblock would be conditional, on the basis of, as described in my above comment, Iantresman entering into mentoring. Anthøny 14:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts by GRBerry

At the last rejection by the committee (3/3/0/1), no admin said they thought this user should be unblocked generally. Stifle is now willing to. That is significant change in the facts and circumstances. Reviewing the situation, what I think the CSN should have done was to impose a topic ban; the tool was authorized under the prior case but never really attempted as is shown by the case log - nor was using it considered in the CSN discussion that I can see. The one year time horizon of the prior case has now expired, but the committee could extend that discretionary sanction while removing the community ban. GRBerry 14:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts by ScienceApologist

If Iantresman should be given a second chance, I would ask that he not be allowed to troll on any pages related to science or pseudoscience including pages on plasma physics, cosmology, astronomy, Velikovsky, etc. Let him stick to the other pages where he was not so tendentious or disruptive. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Ignore the above. I just discovered that Ian has returned as a sockpuppet and posted some mean and nasty things about me: . He should remain community banned until he can stop making this so personal. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

• Please also notice: Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Iantresman (2nd nomination). While you're at it, check out how many different abusive sockpuppets Iantresman created to hound me. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

• • Why did this suddenly turn into a flame-me contest? Look at all the meatpuppets come out to play! Is this really a way to start off an unbanning? ScienceApologist (talk) 15:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Ill-referenced opinion by Feline1

In my opinion, Ian Tresman's ban was the result of vexacious wiki-laywering by User:ScienceApologist, who is an incorrigable flamer, proven liar and sockpuppeteer, and who openly professes contempt for numerous aspects of the wikipedia project. Ian was simply a casualty in Science Apologist's self-appointed crusade to purge wikipedia of all those he feels are not proper scientists. He happened to have taken an editing interest in some articles that were in Science Apologist's path, and thus got crushed under SA's steamroller. In retropsect it can clearly be seen that much of the evidence presented at Tresman's 'trial' was unsound (indeed, maliciously so, with a clear intent to deceive and pervert the course of justice), and if this were a court in any respectable legal system, Ian's conviction would be deemed unsound.--feline1 (talk) 14:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I would just like to add that the fundamental reason for asking the community ban to be reconsidered is that much of the evidence upon which the ban decision was taken has been shown to be flawed. I am amused to see ScienceApologist attempting to present a red herring with an allegation that Ian Tresman used a sock-puppet to be incival to him: may I remind everyone that not only is ScienceApologist a convicted sockpuppetter himself, he has actually campaigned on wikipedia for policy changes under the banner

I am bewildered to read below the views of two of the Arbitrators, who have the opinion "said editor has only procedural factors running in his favour ... I really don't know why (in the real world) the ArbCom would want to open itself to the argument 'you ignored a mail of mine, so I'm worth a case'." Tresman's grounds for appeal are clearly set out above, under three points, none of which are to do with the fact that the ArbCom didn't reply to his emails for a couple of months. I cannot understand how such a mischaracterization of the appeal can be given credence. (The first-and most significant in my view-point was that Tresman was banned for "driving away" ScienceApologist and MainstreamAstronomy, which has been since proven not to be the case.) I am also reading on this page the notions that an appellant should not have their appeal considered because (a) they believe the original verdict was wrong, or (b) simply because their were "procedural" problems with the arbitration. LOL! Is this for real? Why would anyone appeal a verdict if they believed it was right!? This is basically denying the concept of appeal on the basis that contemplating it constitutes contempt of court! And whilst I am no expert in the legal systems of the world, I believe that pointing out procedural deficiencies (and discredited evidence) are fairly standard grounds for appeal in most jurisdictions.--feline1 (talk) 08:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts from Soupdragon42

IMHO Ian Tresman has been the victim of a ScienceApologist witch hunt. SA attacks all science that does not conform to his world view, and flagrantly flouts Wiki rules in this little holy war of his!

Ian Tresman, by contrast, has been polite and reasonable throughout.

ScienceAntagonist has also repeatedly accused me of being a sockpuppet of Ian Tresman, and has yet to apologise Soupdragon42 (talk) 14:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

Iantresman was a tendentious editor who promoted his own interests and fringe POV on Misplaced Pages. I see no evidence that the fringe POV he espouses is under-represented as a result of his ban. Some support for the appeal seems to be on the basis that some other editors, whose editing did not serve to advance a fringe POV, are not banned. That does not sound to me like adequate grounds for overturning a ban. Iantresman also gives no indication that he understands that his aggressive advancement of a fringe POV (something which also dominates off-Misplaced Pages searches for his name) is a problem per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. Since violating these principles was a large part of the problem, it's not clear to me how we can believe that Iantresman will modify said behaviour, given that he asserts that there was nothing wrong with his editing. Incidentally, if Soupdragon42 is not someone's sock then I'm a Dutchman. Whether it's Iantresman is open to debate, but I hear quacking. Guy (Help!) 15:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

First, try the simplest process that might work. This matter should be discussed at WP:AN or WP:ANI to see if there is a consensus to unblock. If that discussion produces an intractable disagreement amongst administrators, then the case may return here. I take no position on the underlying dispute and would be willing to review the matter and provide an opinion at a community discussion. See Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Iantresman (2nd nomination). I have blocked that IP account for making personal attacks against ScienceApologist. I have not yet determined whether or not this is an Iantresman sock. This incident might be a Joe job, and I am hoping that Checkuser evidence will clarify the situation. Jehochman 15:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

@Thatcher. Meat puppetry is also not good. Could you also have a look at the IP? See Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Iantresman. It would be best to record the results there for posterity. Jehochman 15:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Raul654

I agree 100% with Jzg - no good can come of unbanning Iantresman. The arbcom has already rejected his appeals twice (at least that I am aware of) - once several months ago and again a few days ago. Why is this even a consideration? Raul654 (talk) 18:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Mukadderat

Iantresman does not show any sign of remorse. Instead he (or his champion) attacks the past process, i.e., engages in wikipedia:Wikilawyering, i.e., sincerely believes he is right and community was wrong, and hence most probably will continue to behave in a disruptive way. I am sure the arbiters will take this into an account. Mukadderat (talk) 20:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Univolved Rocksanddirt

Based on the Ferryloge precedent for review of CSN site bans, I recommend the committee pick up this one. I have no strong opinion right now on the ban itself. If, after review, the user is well banned, so be it. I would not recommend that the case be expanded to "include the actions of all editors." --Rocksanddirt (talk) 23:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Uninvolved User:Ncmvocalist

I don't see any harm in reviewing this case. I was disturbed that one statement noted 'no good can come of unbanning' the banned party. While I ponder what effect was intended by the person who made that statement, I don't see any merit in it, particularly because bans are not effective on their own in cases like this one. Based on what I have read here so far, I think other remedies need to be considered, and as such, I am of the opinion that this case should proceed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by MGmirkin

Since (if I recall correctly) I commented at the time of the original ban, I may as well briefly restate that I feel now as I felt then that no actual evidence was presented of malfeasance by user Iantresman at the time of his original ban. The ban request was processed in an extraordinarily short time frame, leaving little time for discussion, and amounted to a kangaroo court by people who simply didn't like user Iantresman. Likewise, I feel now as I felt then, the remedy of complete ban from Misplaced Pages was incommensurate with the *unproven* crime, when lesser remedies may have been available (suspension for a finite period, or restriction from editing specific contentious articles ). I think that sums up my position. I would vote for a re-hearing or drop of the ban back to whatever pre-ban status was in place for user Iantresman.

To declare any conflict of interest, I'll note that subsequent to meeting user Iantresman on Misplaced Pages, I have coincidentally met him in person through another venue and generally found him to be an amicable sort. Regardless of the fact that I now know him in person, I did/do feel that he was treated unfairly in the original ban request by his detractors.

• In response to ScienceApologist's notes in the clerk's section below, as I've previously stated, yes I have since met user Iantresman in person and do know him outside of WP. Regardless of that, I also still feel that the ban request was carried out without sufficient evidence and in far too short a time frame, with too stiff a punishment based upon the lack of supporting evidence, as noted in comments by others on this page.
• And yes, I do have something of a distaste for ScienceApologist's occasionally confrontational style and high regard for his own POV at the expense of others' (as, apparently do several others commenting here), and occasionally wrong statements. I've said so openly on WP and elsewhere and don't deny that. But I prefer not to bring personal feelings into this case, as this case isn't about me or ScienceApologist, but the fact that user Iantresman's ban was not well-founded, provided no evidence and used the most extreme remedy possible when lesser remedies were available and may have been equally effective against the alleged behavior(s) without fully revoking user Iantresman's Misplaced Pages editing rights on articles not related to his probation, etc. Mgmirkin (talk) 17:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

As I recall, there was also a pending arbitration request at the time of Ian's ban (initiated by user Iantresman to request clarification of unsupported allegations by an accuser), which was related to the ban itself, but Ian was banned while the arbitration request was being submitted, thus he was disallowed from his own defense on that issue. The arbitration request with direct bearing on the ban request should have been allowed to proceed prior to the ban being effected. One should be allowed to confront / answer one's accusers, lest it later (now) lead to allegations of impropriety. Mgmirkin (talk) 16:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Odd nature

Iantresman was a constant cause of disruption of Misplaced Pages who was already on arbitration probation at the time community banned him, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Iantresman_placed_on_Probation, which found "Iantresman's editing to pseudoscience and science-related articles are characterized by low level edit warring and frequent edits against consensus" and "Iantresman has also been uncivil regarding ScienceApologist". He was subsequently blocked twice, Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Log_of_blocks_and_bans, once for disrupting pseudoscience articles and once for harassing ScienceApologist. Then there's this comment yesterday repeating the attack from User:82.35.165.180 who is no doubt Ian. A person who sees Misplaced Pages as only another channel to push thier pseudoscience POV and who has a persistent habit even in while asking for readmission from exile of harassing their nemsis is exactly the sort of editor Misplaced Pages does not need. I ask the arbcom to reject this appeal and continue the community ban. Odd nature (talk) 00:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Coppertwig

One of the major reasons given for the original ban was that Iantresman allegedly drove another editor, ScienceApologist, from the project. But ScienceApologist is now present and editing this page. Therefore, in my opinion, it's time for forgiveness, reconsideration and a second chance for Iantresman. --☺Coppertwig (talk) 02:27, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Soupdragon42 is probably not an actual sockpuppet of Iantresman but I would be surprised if they did not know each other, at least professionally. Thatcher 15:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

They're all involved at the thunderbolts forum where they take potshots at me for sport. User:Mgmirkin is also heavily involved there. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:25, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/3/0/0)

• Accept since we now have administrators willing to unblock. The procedural situation raises the question whether the case should be heard directly by ArbCom, or whether the issue should be remanded to ANI (as successor to the old CSN) for reopening of the sanctions discussion there. However, given the divided opinions already expressed, I conclude that the ANI discussion would be unlikely to produce consensus and therefore we should proceed with arbitration. The case will also provide another vehicle for discussion of as-yet unresolved issues concerning community ban procedures and reviews, which the committee noted but did not resolve in several recent cases including Sadi Carnot and Ferrylodge, and to assess the effect of any recent community review of policies in this area as urged in those cases. Finally, I note with regret that this user's unblock request submitted directly to the ArbCom mailing list went unresponded to for an unreasonable length of time. As a committee we should continue our review of internal procedures to avoid a recurrence of this situation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
• Accept. I agree with Newyorkbrad that situation is ripe for review by the Committee given the disagreement between admins and the other arbitration cases related to this user. FloNight♥♥♥ 15:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. A persistent correspondent with the ArbCom, said editor has only procedural factors running in his favour, in my opinion. While NYB has a point about our procedures, we have never in the past taken procedural rather than substantive matters to have had this weight. I really don't know why (in the real world) the ArbCom would want to open itself to the argument "you ignored a mail of mine, so I'm worth a case". Charles Matthews (talk) 19:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • The procedural points, while significant to me, are ancillary. The fact is that we have a community-banned user but administrators (plural) have indicated they are now willing to unblock him. Both our decision precedents and community-written policy are unclear whether the a community ban requires unanimous administrator agreement as opposed to a strong consensus. In the absence of a resolution it is not clear to me what the next step would be, although I certainly hope that all admins will proceed in a collaborative rather than unilateral manner. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
    • The logic is that he is still blocked, but not community banned. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
• Reject again. Agree with Charles. --jpgordon 20:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. I am not impressed by procedural arguments because we are not bureaucratic and procedure-bound; the guiding issue is this simple consideration: if IanTresman is unblocked, will his editing cause significant disruption to the cause of writing a neutral, high quality encyclopaedia? Having checked his previous history up to the time he was blocked, I agree that he was disruptive. In this appeal I see nothing to indicate that this attitude has changed; indeed it appears to have hardened. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarifications and other requests

For clarifications and motions in prior cases, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Clarifications and motions.

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