Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:31, 20 April 2008

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Archives

Index -index- As of January 16, 2003 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 - late May 2006 May 24 - July 2006 July 2006 - August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 - Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 - December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 - Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 - Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007- Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2-5, 2007 March 5-11, 2007 March 11 - April 3, 2007 April 2 - May 2, 2007 May 3 - June 7, 2007 June 9 - July 4, 2007 July 13 - August 17, 2007 August 17 - September 11, 2007 September 14 - October 7, 2007 October 28 - December 1, 2007 December 2 - December 16, 2007 December 15 - January 4, 2008 January 4 - January 30, 2008 January 30 - February 28, 2008 February 28 - March 11, 2008 March 9 - April 18, 2008 April 18 - May 30, 2008 May 30 - July 27, 2008 July 26 - October 4, 2008 October 4 - November 12, 2008 November 10 - December 10, 2008 December 5 - December 25, 2008 December 25 - January 16, 2009 January 15 - January 27, 2009 January 26 - February 10, 2009 February 8 - March 18, 2009 March 18 - May 6, 2009 May 5 - June 9, 2009 June 10 - July 11, 2009 July 12 - August 29, 2009

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A star for you!

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		You get so much shit, crap, and flak hurled at you by vandals, et al. that I want to give you something to balance it out. You deserve a lot more of these. :) —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  18:40 8 April, 2008 (UTC)

{{empty comment for archiving purposes Fram (talk) 07:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC))

Guestbook

Hello Mr Wales could you please sign my guestbook? Thanks alot for your time, wwesocks 07:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Takes Manhattan photo contest results

Hi Jimbo. We briefly talked about this at the event the other night, so I thought I should give you the link to the results of Misplaced Pages Takes Manhattan. This was a collaboration between Free Culture @ Columbia, Free Culture @ NYU, the working-to-be-recognized Wikimedia New York City and Misplaced Pages volunteers. It was the first event of its kind anywhere, as far as I know.

We got photos for 92 specifically requested sites (90 separate articles), nearly half of the 188 on our list.

Check out Commons:Misplaced Pages Takes Manhattan/Gallery (which is really cool). Thanks.--Pharos (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Updating the server

Perhaps its time you updated the server, at least 30 times today something has prevented me from saving my work or editing a page with the lock "Misplaced Pages database is temporarily in read-only mode". Its not a good look for the site -it makes it look like it can't handle the strain and it is quite frustrating to keep losing work which won't save first time. Am I the only one experiencing this? ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ 20:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No, Blofeld, you are not the only one suffering from this, though perhaps not as many times as you. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

ITN

WP:ITN embodies the sui generis potential of Misplaced Pages to not simply be replicative but transformative of how knowledge can be created and communicated. News of all types from across the world are often featured on ITN and expose readers to up-to-date, detailed, and high-quality encyclopedic articles to provide a context for issues that no newspaper can. Moreover, the active community of editors who participates there has developed a strong ethic and set of rules that allows them to weed out the trash new and infotainment that degrades and demeans journalism as an essential component of a free and open society and to instead focus on issues of international importance and encyclopedic interest.

However, we're currently in the midst of a debate about how we might go about including the deaths of people of important encyclopedic and social importance. This year alone, the deaths of Suharto, Pavarotti, Arthur C. Clarke, Edmund Hillary, Bobby Fischer, and Charlton Heston were not included because of the existing rules despite a consensus that they should have been included anyway. However, we are again faced with the unfortunate task of debating whether or not to include the deaths of two scientific luminaries, John Archibald Wheeler and Edward Lorenz.

The compelling and often contentious manner in which consensus emerges among a dedicated group of editors, it is not ultimately up to them to take action. Like many tasks on wikipedia (deletion, banning, etc.) editing a template that appears on the front-page is prudently restricted to administrators only. But administrators are placed in the unenviable position of having to err on the side of inaction or straight-laced interpretation of the rules even in light of a consensus suggesting otherwise for fear of being accused of acting too quickly, employing poor judgment, reversing precedents, using imperfect information, being reverted by another admin, or upsetting vocal minority constituents (of which I have certainly been a member sometimes). The effect is, we have a cycle of logjams in which there is a consensus to make a change, a case in which the new consensus might be enacted, but an inability to effect the change leading to frustration. After a round of archiving and change of membership, amnesia sets in but in time another instance of the issue raises its head, the same consensus for change re-emerges, but is again unrealized.

The reason why I bring this to your attention is not for you to take a side or otherwise ask for your blessing on a policy matter, but to ask your advice on how how a community of editors can go about implementing change when the means for enacting that change are reserved to another class of users? Madcoverboy (talk) 03:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not Jimbo, obviously, but an admin. If you need the attention of admins, the best way is the administrators' noticeboard. A brief post like "we have reached a consensus here (link), but need an admin to do X" should be enough to get a few of them over to the discussion, and to either do what you want them to do, or explain why they don't (too small a consensus, problems not thought of before, whatever). If you did this already and it had no result, then you can always contact me or any individual admin to come over and have a look. Fram (talk) 07:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I took a look at the discussion and it made me very proud. It seems like just the kind of thoughtful discussion that leads to progress. My own opinion (and this is just one person's opinion, and in fact the opinion of someone who does not directly participate in the particular case and may be therefore wrong in some important way) is that those who think the criteria should be expanded to include certain highly notable individuals who are not heads of state, etc., is a step in the right direction, and thoughtfully writing it up in such a way to minimize controversy and capture our general community spirit of what should be there is a good thing.

As to the question of what happens when there are editorial considerations in the general community that might not be reflected in the opinions of the admins who are able to actually implement those changes, well, I am not aware that there is a serious conflict in this area. I think if people generally get to a good solution here, there would be no issues with it being implemented.

The really great answer to this, of course, is flagged revisions, which will allow us to open up the editing of homepage elements for the first time in several years.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Fancruft inquiry

Dear Jimbo, I have been trying to remove a large amount a of fancruft from the article prehistoric park. It is a fictional documentary (possible "mockumentary") about extinct creatures brought into the real world via time travel and put into a zoo called "prehistoric park", starring Nigel Marven (who plays himself). This article is riddled with fancruft, and has even been forked off into these pages. The "plot summary" almost contains the entire script. Being appalled by this, I started a user subpage to perform test edits, and I am being assisted by a another user, Dinoguy2 who agrees that this article is filled with fancruft. I also notice that most articles about fiction have original research in them, have huge plot summaries and are written in in-universe styles. Although Some wikipedia guidelines discourage this, I think that overall, wikipedia needs to be more strict about this. T.Neo (talk) 14:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I generally agree that this is a problem. An encyclopedia is not a data dump. An encyclopedia is not an in-universe fan guide. It is difficult to draw the line, and I generally try to stay out of it. But it seems to me that an insistence on sources is a good place to start.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages chapter in Jonathan Zittrain's book "The Future of the Internet and How to Stop It"

FYI - Have you seen the Wikpedia chapter in Jonathan Zittrain's book "The Future of the Internet and How to Stop It"? It's very interesting, and delves into many detailed issues that sometimes come up on this talk page. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 16:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Very good book indeed, and well publicized. Seth, if you or others wish to help expand Jonathan Zittrain that would be great. Hoping for DYK a couple days from now. It's within 3,000 chars of the five-fold expansion requirement at the moment. -Susanlesch (talk) 17:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• Did you know...that cyber law author and professor Jonathan Zittrain (pictured) co-founded StopBadware.org to distribute the task of collecting data about malware to Internet users at large?

Hello. DYK length is done now, and whether it is chosen of course no way to know yet. Corrections for both the article and DYK hook most welcome. -Susanlesch (talk) 01:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Boy I still don't know if highlighting the issue of malware or leaving it out to make a positive message is better. Alternate below. Thoughts anyone? The more I read the more this gentleman convinces. I apologize for the extra posts here but think this topic is worth it. -Susanlesch (talk) 10:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

• ...that scholar Jonathan Zittrain (pictured) sees the future safety of the Internet not in walled gardens but in the principles on which the IETF and Misplaced Pages are founded?

Help

I watched a documentary tonight, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, but it appears that many of the scientists interviewed for that film are in cognito contributors at wikipedia. Isn't this the encyclopedia that anybody can edit? They are making up rules intead of forming concensus throught the bold, revert, discuss cycle. Yhvh777 (talk) 04:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, everyone can help out build this encyclopedia, as long as they aren't blocked or banded from wikipedia.--RyRy5 (talk) 04:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

True, but usually we expect better edits than, say, this one. Abecedare (talk) 05:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Edits like this are not needed here. Also, edits like saying "this is the greatest" or "this is my favorite" are not needed here aslo. We should always stay nuetral when writing articles. Also, I do not understand User:Yhvh777 comment. Please clarify.--RyRy5 (talk) 05:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I have not seen the documentary, although I suppose I might. I do not have any particular interest in debates around evolution at this time: I explored the topic to my personal satisfaction some years ago. In terms of Misplaced Pages policy, I strongly support our ongoing work at favoring peer-reviewed academic research over newspaper articles. I think that Misplaced Pages itself should never take a stand on controversial issues, but instead should merely report fairly and in an appropriate place on relevant controversies. Good behavior should be expected of everyone. Edits like that made by Yhvh777, linked above by RyRy5 and Abecedare, are completely unwelcome and contrary to any spirit of true inquiry. Insults and personal smears have no place in thoughtful discourse.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Good-point. There are many people adding nonsense edits which are quickly reverted, wheather it is false info or true info, nonsense is not welcomed here.--RyRy5 (talk) 16:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Visit to Oxford

I am a student at Oxford (Hertford College) as well as a Misplaced Pages editor and administrator. I have heard rumours that you will be speaking at the Oxford Union in early May - is this true? If so, I look forward to meeting you there. Walton 19:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Adoption

Are you taking on adoptees? Because I would like you to adopt me for WP:AAU. Nothing444 19:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Why would you ask Jimbo. I seriously doubt he's adopting. Please ask someone else. Unless for some, beyond reason you would accept Jimbo.--RyRy5 (talk) 20:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't you mean unless Jimbo would accept you? Anyway its not a good precedent or everyone would want to be adopted by him. Thanks, SqueakBox 20:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I meant that. BTW, User:Nothing444 already has 2 adopters, is it possible to have more?--RyRy5 (talk) 20:27, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

There is more than one editor with Jimbo's autograph... but how many can boast Jimbo as an adopter? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Having watched Jimbo's edits for more than a year now what I see is that he attends to this page and otherwise his main role is adopting articles not editors, and I would advise him to continue in this role and let we volunteer editors adopt other users. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it true that a User can put anything he wants on his user page?

User:Cult free world has created a "draft" article of 4x previously deleted content on a sub-user page. On this page he is basically making up "practices" and "beliefs" of the group Sahaj Marg/Shri Ram Chandra Mission based on creative selection of various primary sources and foreign language blogs or sources. He ignores good faith comments from others here and accuses those who disagree with him of having a COI, calls them "cult" members, or just rudely dismisses their detailed opinion. And this isn't even the worst of it...

The truly objectionable part of this user page is that he quotes verbatim from a newspaper article found libelous and defamatory by a high court in India. (Yes, a court found the article libelous and defamatory, this is a fact, not just an allegation.) This issue was first brought to admin attention on an MFD for the article here. (The article was kept after a sanitized version was reviewed by an admin here, and then User:Cult free world immediately reverted it to his libelous OR version here. Several editors tried to revert the libel, including myself (because I thought all editors had an obligation to revert libel on any space), and we were eventually penalized for "violating" Cult's userspace. At least four complaints were filed on the BLP board by four different persons () and no one so much as cautioned User:Cult free world.

Most alarmingly, when one enters "Sahaj Marg India" (the title of this user page) into Google, it gets a #1 hit... An article based on court-ruled libel and defamation!

So here's my question: Is it true that a user can post whatever they want on their user page? Even libel and defamation as the whole first paragraph here was found to be by a court of law?

If yes, how does a Misplaced Pages user page differ from a www.blogger.com?

Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 09:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

This has already been answered on one of the Administrators Noticeboards, where the answer was, "Yes, within reason and Misplaced Pages policies". As you will be aware, the page is not the editors Userpage, but a sub-page where the editor is working on a proposed article. You have already been blocked once for edit warring (by me, to ensure there is no question of me not declaring an interest) on this particular issue. I would also comment that the material - albeit in different versions - has survived previous attempts at deletion, contrary to your suggestion above. There are appropriate avenues to pursue your concerns regarding this content, some of which you have already exhausted, and I really recommend that you investigate the others rather than attempting to circumvent WP's processes. Even so, you may have to reconcile yourself to the possibility that you may not get exactly what you want in this situation. LessHeard vanU (talk) 11:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni di Stefano‎

In light of the recent lawsuit against the foundation and several volunteers here your intervention would be much appreciated. This isn't the sort of thing that should be handled by the community. I understand that you cannot speak publicly about the lawsuit but surely you can make an executive decision on the fate of the article. What ever happened to WP:OFFICE? EconomicsGuy (talk) 07:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Mike Godwin has been notified. At the present time, I personally see no reason to believe that there has been a lawsuit filed in any jurisdiction, though it is of course possible. I see no reason at the present time that the article should be treated in any special way. Mr. Giovanni is a well known and colorful character about whom there are many reliable sources. As a general principle, Misplaced Pages articles on living persons should report faithfully on what reliable sources say, with due consideration given to WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. In complex cases, especially, WP:NOR must be given careful consideration as well. We need to respect human dignity, and the best way to do that is to write and monitor carefully and with a loving outlook.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)