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See Also

Why are Alchemy, Pathological Science, Protoscience, and Transmutation linked to Cold Fusion here? Wouldn't Nuclear Fusion, Nuclear Fission, and some other kind of energy production linked to this article? They seem almost unrelated to this article, other than the fact that most of those require a fusion of some sorts (namely alchemy and transmutation) and that this is a new science (protoscience). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.185.104 (talk) 03:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Cold Fusion isn't protoscience so much as it is pathological science, hence the links. I have no idea on Alchemy or Transmutation, though. Titanium Dragon (talk) 09:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Cold fusion was considered pathological science in the 90's, but it isn't anymore: the 2004 DOE was evenly split on the evidence of excess heat, and identified several areas of research to resolve the controversy. You would expect such an assessment for a protoscience, not for a pathological science. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:21, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen any evidence that the field's reputation has improved since the 90's. According to the Physics Today 2005 article, cold fusion is still in a state of "disrepute." Therefore, the link to pathological science should probably stay. 209.253.120.198 (talk) 01:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Funny enough, the title of the Physics Today article you refer too is "DOE Warms to Cold Fusion". That article does not talk of "pathological science" at all. Actually, I do not think that there is any post-2000 source presenting cold fusion as pathological science. Pcarbonn (talk) 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The Physics Today April 2004 article is titled "DOE Warms to Cold Fusion" while the Physics Today January 2005 article is titled "Cold Fusion Gets Chilly Encore." The former states that the scientific community "shuns" cold fusion, while the latter states that "Claims of cold fusion are no more convincing than they were 15 years ago." Physics Today is the principal magazine published by the main association of American physicists. 209.253.120.198 (talk) 12:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Surely the numerous recent articles on cold fusion would present cold fusion as pathological science if that's the proper way to present it. None is doing it. Pathological science is a a clearly defined concept: a science in which "people are tricked into false results ... by subjective effects, wishful thinking or threshold interactions". None of your statement nor your sources supports that view. Instead, they are consistent with a new field of study trying to establish its legitimacy. Pcarbonn (talk) 13:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

They recommended against giving it any federal funding, and considering some of the things the federal government HAS sunk money in (the infamous telportation report, the remote viewing program, ect.) I don't think that's exactly a vote of endorsement. They listed some very basic stuff which cold fusion has ultimately failed to answer; I think calling it pathological science is justified given it seems more that people WANT to believe in it rather than actually having solid evidence for it. The whole thing reminds me strongly of polywater. Titanium Dragon (talk) 23:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken : the 2004 DOE DID recommend giving federal funding (but not in a focused program). Here is a quote from the 2004 DOE report : "The nearly unanimous opinion of the reviewers was that funding agencies should entertain individual, well-designed proposals for experiments that address specific scientific issues relevant to the question of whether or not there is anomalous energy production in Pd/D systems, or whether or not D-D fusion reactions occur at energies on the order of a few eV."

Polywater has been shown to be pathological science, not cold fusion : small impurities were invariably found to explain the polywater phenomena; many experimental reports of cold fusion have no satisfactory explanation at this point. If some people want to believe in CF, as you suggest, others chose to show "pathological disbelief" towards cold fusion, only on the basis of their belief system. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A general principle on controversial articles is to keep the See also section quite short and not to use it to introduce aspects of the controversy that should be dealt with in main article space. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The relevant scientific literature does classify Cold Fusion with Polywater. See "Indicators of failed information epidemics in the scientific journal literature: A publication analysis of Polywater and Cold Nuclear Fusion", E. Ackermann, Scientometrics 66, 451-466 (2006) --Noren (talk) 23:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You can't conclude that cold fusion should be considered pathological science from that paper, only that it should be considered as a failed information epidemics. The definition of failed information epidemics given in that article is distinctively different from the definition of pathological science. I would have no problem tagging the cold fusion article as a failed information epidemics, but it would require this topic to be presented in the article (as itsmejudith explained). Pcarbonn (talk) 06:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages; we report from a NPOV and use RSs. RSs say that cold fusion is a pathological science, and indeed it is more commonly thought of as a pathological or pseudoscience than as an actual science by scientists. Hence, we MUST state that it has a reputation as being such; it would not be neutral for us to do otherwise. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Then please provide a reliable source, among the many published since 2000, that say that cold fusion is pathological science. Wikipeida policies require that any challenged statement be backed up by a reference. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You mean other than the source already in the article? Titanium Dragon (talk) 04:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Refer to pcarbonn's previous comment, where he notes that said source does not say that cold fusion is pathological science. Kevin Baas 15:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

hatnote

The hatnote is unorthodox and contains a word which has a pejorative meaning. This is unneccesary and reeks of battles behind the scenes which should not be reflected in article space. If we cannot do better, we should simply remove the attempt to distinguish this subject from others and simply leave the second sentence, directing people to Adobe ColdFusion if they come here expecting an article on software. 86.44.26.69 (talk) 21:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This is fixed in the draft version coming out of the mediation. You can find it here. Pcarbonn (talk) 07:05, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, but since the mediator had copied over a version of a lead, it seemed he had neglected the hatnote. Defeats the purpose of starting at the top if you don't actually start at the top ;) 86.44.28.245 (talk) 04:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

I fully agree: mediation has been going on for a very long time, and seems to be dwindling. The current mediator's version should be copied into the article, including the hatnote. 76.225.156.160 (talk) 17:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Y Done, sort of. I copied over the hatnote from the mediation draft. I did not copy anything else. Although the mediation draft version seems much better. (Just took a quick look at it.) So, are there more people that think that the mediation draft should be copied over here? --David Göthberg (talk) 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I planned on copying it over a day or two ago, but I've been out of town a lot and haven't been able to do so. But I see no reason why it cannot be copied over, and if it's not done by the morning, I'll do it myself. If there are no objections. It's always open for discussion post-copy, so it's not one of those "finalized forever" versions. seicer | talk | contribs 04:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

As discussed here, there is still one major issue to be mediated. Pcarbonn (talk) 08:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The word "proposed" should be inserted in the hatnote. The current hatnote version does not communicate the level of disagreement in the field. Does anyone object to that? 209.253.120.198 (talk) 12:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Palladium

There needs to be a mention early on that palladium electrodes were used by Pons and Fleischer and by most? nearly all? all? researchers since, as well as the fact that palladium combines with hydrogen in electrolysis. I'm not sure of the best way to do this. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable, as palladium was as essential of an ingredient as heavy water was in the original cells. Not all of the researchers since have used palladium. Other metals have been used with positive results. Interestingly, at least one experiment claimed a positive result with light water using - if i recall correctly - a silver cathode. This is hard to believe. But it is actually predicted by a theory proposed by a reputable scientist whose name i unfortunately forgot - hsi theoryhad something to do with the periodicity of the lattice. But to answer your question, I would say most, not all, experiments used palladium as the loading material. Scientists have experimented with different cathodes, with some success using cathodes other than palladium. Kevin Baas 14:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Post-2004 literature reviews

There were some recent peer-reviewed literature reviews mentioned during mediation which were published after 2004 (which is where the "History" section currently ends.) They are here and here. I think a summary of their abstracts and conclusions should be included in the article. What do other people think? Wide and Slow (talk) 04:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I fully support it (but don't have the time to do it). Pcarbonn (talk) 07:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You may also want to add this 2002 report: Szpak, Stanislaw & Mosier-Boss, Pamela A., eds. (2002a), Thermal and nuclear aspects of the Pd/D2O system - Volume 1:A decade of research at Navy laboratories, Technical report 1862, San Diego: Office of Naval Research/Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center.Pcarbonn (talk) 07:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

lenr-canr.org

No thanks. It's not a reliable source, and most of the links to it were blatant copyright violations (hint: when you cite the international journal of so-and-so, the url is not lenr-canr.org). Also, it has been shown to editorialise rather than simply republish material. It is a ocmpletely inappropriate source for this or any other article.

As a side issue, the bibliography is a laundry list of "see? we are right!" papers by cold fusion advocates and needs to be massively pruned. Guy (Help!) 10:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

What were the opinions on excluding lenr-canr.org during mediation? I am inclined to say that they should only be included in the article if a source meeting the reliable source criteria has described them. --Why? (Why not?) 10:52, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, but I do know that no amount of mediation will ever allow us to link to offsite copyright violations. Guy (Help!) 12:14, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I reverted JzG's changes. I'm willing to rediscuss these issues under mediation, if we reopen it. Pcarbonn (talk) 13:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

JzG, Noren, do you accept that we resolve this issue under the mediation of Seicer ? Seicer, do you accept to mediate this issue ? Pcarbonn (talk) 16:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Let's discuss this further. Until then, to prevent edit warring and etc., I've protected the page. seicer | talk | contribs 16:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are some issues with JzG's edit:

• Noren said in the past that we should avoid repetition in the text. The first sentence that JzG added in "ongoing controversy" is already quoted in the "Experimental reports / Nuclear products". I see no need to repeat it in Ongoing controversy.
• I don't see the need to quote "Physics today"'s opinion on the 2004 DOE report in "Ongoing Controversy": Misplaced Pages readers are smart enough to make their own judgement.
• Replacing "cold fusion researchers" by "cold fusion advocates" is unnecessary POV pushing.
• please re-explain the issue with lenr-canr.org. Lenr-canr.org contains copies of articles published by other reliable sources: I don't see the need to remove these urls that are provided for the convenience of the reader. Why is it not reliable as a repository ? What evidence do you have of copyright violations ? Why should it be treated differently than arxiv (which is often used for citations, see here)?
• citations have been incorrectly removed: lenr-canr.org is not the publisher of these papers, it only has a copy of it, with authorisation from the author. For example, the proceedings of the 10th ICCF conference was published by World Scientific Publishing is (you can buy it here).

Pcarbonn (talk) 16:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• And here are some issues with your edit: WP:OWN, WP:NBD, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and so on. Sure, you spent countless hours chipping away at the neutrality of the article and skewing it your way, and I don't have that much time to waste and am in any case not so very obsessed with legitimising cold fusion, but there is no doubt that LENR-CANR hosts offsite copyvios. And to be honest I can quite see why a CF advocate would hate the Physics Today analysis, but it is accessible to a general readership and explains in very vivid terms why the field is considered controversial. The edit was small, explained on talk, and calling it a "POV push" was not exactly a helpful or productive thing to do. Guy (Help!) 17:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

lenr-canr

The lenr-canr site has to go. For example, J. Electroanal. Chem., 304 (1991) 271-278 Elsevier Sequoia S.A., Lausanne at the head of www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BushBFheliumprod.pdf is, on its face, an admission of blatant copyright theft. Elsevier do not allow websites to host full text of their journal articles (I know, I have asked them). It's also been shown in the past to host supposed "copies" of material (specifically the 2004 DoE review) which started with editorial. It's also been spammed by the site's owner. Its main function is as a mirror of copyright material wrapped around with pro-CF advocacy. It fails abjectly as a WP:RS, and if the reliable sources aren't available online then we just use {{cite journal}}. Feel free to show any content it has which is hosted with permission and which comes from reliabel, independent, credible, peer-reveiwed sources, which are themselves not available online. Guy (Help!) 17:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

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