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This article was nominated for deletion on 14 February 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Reverted to more stable version

Reverted to more stable version per Marskell User:Colin4C Igor Berger (talk) 10:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the article to a stable version before this article started gettig slashed and abused. Please do not edit war. If you voice your opsition to revert talk about here first, but do not just go and revert without getting a consensus for it. That will be edit warring which we trying to avert. Igor Berger (talk) 10:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Subsequent to that version I made some edits last night. I have restored these. Marskell (talk) 10:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Good! Igor Berger (talk)

Good? Marksell restored changes lost when Igor reverted to a version from a week ago, wiping out dozens of edits to many different sections. I assume the principle that that is good doesn't apply uniquely to people agreeing with Igor. I assume the right to restore changes destroyed by Igor is held equally by all. Thus, I too will do what Marksell did: restore some edits. How could it be wrong? Life.temp (talk) 12:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Marskel inserted additional material that was missing from the revert per conversation on my talk page before I restored. Both edits were done with consenses, please assume good faith. Igor Berger (talk) 18:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It would be wrong because there's no consensus for it. Marskell (talk) 12:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus for your changes either. So why aren't they wrong?

A reversion back to a version a week old, wiping out dozens of edits, scorns the entire process. Have you actually reviewed each of the many changes that is now being reverted? Have you reviewed all the comments made here to explain each edit? Do you really know that you disagree with every single one of them? Have you, for example, checked every article in the "Peer Reviewed" list to determine whether it is actually peer reviewed? I have. Most, possible none, are actually peer-reviewed. Are you even aware of that dispute (with Igor, of course), and the edits it included that you are now wiping out?

This kind of thing isn't done in the interest of consensus or policy. It's done in the interest of avoiding consensus and policy. I requested "informal mediation." Life.temp (talk) 13:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The consesus allways was and is for the article not for mass deletion. The horse has four legs, not grew an extra one over night! Igor Berger (talk) 18:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you acquainted with Bsharvy perchance, Life Temp? Colin4C (talk) 16:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want to hitch your cart to http://www.igorthetroll.com, there is a sockpuppet page just for that. Take it there. The only mass deletion was the one you and www.igorthetroll.com are defending. That is a single edit wiping out many, and there is no consensus for it. The edits you don't like were done over many days by different editors. Life.temp (talk) 21:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. Are you editing this from Seoul, Korea? Colin4C (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Tags: A Korean View

Just found this bit on the Village Pump written by a user from Seoul, recommending tags!:

"I like to see the tags, because I like to know when I am reading something that isn't a consensus. They're a reminder to readers that Misplaced Pages is an ongoing process, and no article is ever really finished. I think that's important. Also, I started editing Misplaced Pages after reading it for a long time, because I thought I could address the problems in the warning tags. If you're just a reader and you see a tag for something you can fix, you think "Hey, I know about this; I can fix it" and you are prompted to become an editor. I can't say my editing is going well at the moment, but I still think the tags are a part of the "anyone can edit" spirit." Colin4C (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Peer Reviewed Articles

I've looked at every article in that list, and see no evidence that any are peer-reviewed. One of them isn't even published. Colin, you reverted my edit. What do you propose? Life.temp (talk) 19:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Is absence of evidence, evidence of absence? Colin4C (talk) 19:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes. If somebody doesn't claim to be say, a police-officer, and displays no badge or other identifying features, it wouldn't make much sense to insist on calling him a police-officer. There is little or no evidence of life on Mars, thus, we don't have a section in the Mars article asserting: "There is life on Mars." Life.temp (talk) 19:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

So, on your logic, as there is no evidence that the authors of the articles are not Martians are we to assume that they therefore come from the Red Planet? Are the grounds for thinking that the articles in International Studies Quarterly are not peer reviewed any greater than the grounds for thinking they are peer reviewed? I have edited several academic journals and it an invariable rule that all articles are peer reviewed - thus saving many an academic reputation I might add! Colin4C (talk) 19:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is proof that International Studies Quarterly is peer reviewed: http://www.isq.unt.edu/

Nothing about the authors not being Martians though...Colin4C (talk) 19:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that article, as I pointed out here the first time I deleted the link, is that it doesn't seem to be directly related to anti-Americanism. The title is "Determinants of Arab Public Opinion on Foreign Relations." The one somewhat related reference is about the West generally: "Rather, in rejecting Hypothesis 6, we have already rejected the claim that Arab opinion is monolithically anti-Western. (A quick glance at Table 3 suffices to demonstrate that Arabs are not systematically hostile to foreign countries in general.)". However, in the interest of compromise, I'm willing to leave that article in the list. Life.temp (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

• Here is the archived discussion of this topic Talk:Anti-Americanism/Archive_25#External_Links_peer-reviewed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Life.temp (talk • contribs) 20:13, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that the articles in academic journals are not normally peer reviewed? Can you name one academic journal which accepts non peer reviewed articles? Colin4C (talk) 09:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Appropriate Sourcing

The "North America" section is a case-study for how this article should be edited. As it stands, it says:

North America

Anti-Americanism is fairly prevalent in Canada, with frequent allegations of American athletes cheating and of being snubbed by the US administration. However, such sentiment is not limited to Canada, and allegations of Anti-Americanism are frequently made by various US politicians about those in the opposing party.

Objections. 1. It states opinion as a fact: Anti-Americanism is fairly prevalent in Canada; frequent allegation of cheating is anti-American. (It seem to me the US media is full of allegations of athletes cheating: why isn't that anti-American?) Sourcing the opinion doesn't change that problem. 2. The source is not notable. It is an opinion piece from a newspaper. 3. It is not neutral, since it labels people in a way they don't label themselves. Solutions: Delete the part about Canada. It doesn't belong in the article. If there's notable debate about whether the examples are anti-Americanism, then the debate can be described here. The part about US politicians needs to be sourced. It's much easier to include, because it doesn't constitute Misplaced Pages asserting anyone is anti-American. That's an important distinction. The subject can (should) be described without Misplaced Pages calling people anti-American. I think this reasoning applies to many of the culture-specific allegations of anti-Americanism in this article. Life.temp (talk) 09:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not the sources that have to be neutral but for us here to give a balanced selection of variously POV sources. NPOV is a policy for wikipedia editors, not for the sources themselves. Colin4C (talk) 10:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, but that doesn't address the objections. Life.temp (talk) 11:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes it does. Also your point number 2 is wrong. Notability has to do with wikipedia articles not sources of citations. If you give a reference for a statement people can judge the statement on the basis of the reference. That's how academic references work: "According to this ref so-and-so is the case". Whether something is absolutely true is unknowable, except perhaps to God. Au contraire the statement "According to this ref so-and-so is the case" can be checked to be true or not by inspecting the reference. The notability of the source can be judged by the reader. It is not for wikipedia editors to judge. Our role is not so exalted. Colin4C (talk) 13:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It was a stub section that said nothing relevant. I removed. Anti-Americanism is fairly prevelant in Canada (it defines Canadian identity, in part), but it should be better described if we are to include it.

But before proceeding further, can we run checkuser on Life.temp? I don't like discussing with this feeling of duplicity hanging over everything said. I'm quite busy for the next few days or I'd initiate one myself. Marskell (talk) 18:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I found the relevant policy description:

"Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves." Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#A_simple_formulation. Everybody should read that section of the policy. It's what I was trying to say above. A lot of this article "asserts the opinions themselves." Example, "Anti-Americanism in some form has existed across different American presidential administrations, though its severity may wax and wane considerably depending upon particular economic or geopolitical issues." Please note that the problem with this sentence isn't solved by adding a reference. The problem is that it iasserts an opinion. It would need to be re-worded as, "According to , anti-Americanism in some form...." And there would need to be balance with the fact that few of these being labelled anti-American would accept that label for themselves. Life.temp (talk) 21:48, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's more specific policy that addresses my concern. I would only add that 1) if it is likely many people dispute that the Beatles are the greatest band, the opposite view needs to be present, and 2) anti-Americanism, as a potential pejorative about living people, requires a very high standard of neutrality.

"When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the UK Singles Chart," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources." Life.temp (talk) 22:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Just to say that what is classed as a 'fact' is only through someone's opinion. 'Facts' do not impinge on our consciousness with the blinding force of revelation and even if they did we would have to convince someone else that what was revealed to us is the TRUTH. Nobody knows what the true facts are about reality. Descartes, Kant and Hegel couldn't find out and even Einstein didn't know. All we can do is say e.g. "According to Einstein E = mc squared" or "According to George Bush the weapons of mass destruction are in Saddam's garden shed" and leave it to others to figure out what credit they are prepared to give to Mr Einstein or Mr Bush or whoever. Colin4C (talk) 09:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The policy of Misplaced Pages is that some things are classed as fact and some are not, and the policy is given in the link I provided above. If you want to start a nihilistic encyclopedia which recognizes nothing as fact, I will be very interested to see how it works out. Misplaced Pages is not such a project. Life.temp (talk) 12:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not nihilism. Science progresses. Newton's theory of physics was replaced by Einstein's which was replaced by quantum theory which itself is not the definitive answer. There are new discoveries being made every day in science and new philosophical theories and new definitions and new ways of analysis and new historical discoveries. If you want to start a medieval encyclopedia based on the immutable thoughts of Aristotle I would be interested to see how it turns out. Misplaced Pages is not such a project. Colin4C (talk) 15:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Colin, make an effort. Misplaced Pages's policy is given in the link I provided. This is the fourth time in 2 days I've referred you to an actual page that explains the policy on classifying fact/opinion and how to write about them. Life.temp (talk) 21:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Is that a fact or an opinion? Colin4C (talk) 09:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Case in point: the first paragraph of the Latin American section, which I removed. The first source (PBS) said nothing about anti-Americanism, and its only comment about sentiment was "For too long, Mexicans have felt that their generosity and good will towards Americans have been corresponded by abuse and perfidy from their northern neighbor." In other words, Mexicans felt affection toward Americans but thought Americans were anti-Mexican. The second source, from the Financial Times, was an opinion piece. The third source called nothing anti-American and barely mentioned sentiment at all. This whole article is like that. Life.temp (talk) 12:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

All three sources reported facts about anti-American sentiments in Mexico, Chile and South America generally. Colin4C (talk) 12:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Document please. Life.temp (talk) 13:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

All the references are of standard form used and accepted in all other wikipedia articles. Colin4C (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

You were asked to document your statement: "All three sources reported facts about anti-American sentiments." You've moved from harassment to word games. Do I need to complain about your behavior? Life.temp (talk) 22:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Latin American Anti-Americanism is very interesting. For a long time it was thought that Guevara and Castro were communist stooges, but we can now see with Chavez that South American Anti-Americanism has got legs of its own and is in fact a long standing historical factor 'south of the border' originating from before the Moscow Communist Experiment and now continuing afterwards. I have added some more material on this - fully referenced from widely used textbooks on South American history plus a biography of Fidel Castro. Winn's book is an up to date textbook on South American History used in universities which has elicited a chorus of praise from reviewers. Winn is Professor of Latin American History at Tufts University.Colin4C (talk) 19:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no evidence the Winn book says anything about anti-Americanism. It doesn't appear to be primarily a textbok, either: "companion volume to a PBS TV series." Regardles, a sourced opinion is still opinion and shouldn't be stated as fact. Life.temp (talk) 22:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Professor Peter Winn's book is used as a college textbook on South American studies and reports anti-Americanism in South as a reaction to historic attempts by the USA to assert it's hegemony over South America by military, diplomatic and financial methods. Colin4C (talk) 15:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

1. The text it references has nothing to do with hegemony. 2. A sourced opinion is still an opinion, and needs to be stated as such. 3. You haven't documented that the book says that. Life.temp (talk) 08:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Deletions

I am wondering why Life.temp has just deleted this from the article:

• Regularly updated series of articles and commentary on Anti-Americanism in the Atlantic Review.

As the Atlantic Review addresses questions of anti-Americanism or perceived anti-Americanism it seems relevent to this article. If nobody can give me cogent reasons why it should be deleted I will restore it. Colin4C (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Even Igor agreed to it. See the discussion within the section on The White Man's Burden above Talk:Anti-Americanism#White_Mans_Burden. Life.temp (talk) 11:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I just looked. There was no concensus to remove it. All we have is your assertion here that there was a concensus. What do other people here think about this? Colin4C (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The only person to object, Igor, reverted the change once, then agreed to it. The link is not to a series of articles on anti-Americanism, as described. It is to a page of search results for anti-Americanism at that Web zine. Previously, this section had a warning for having too many "indiscriminate" links or something like that. (The warning is now gone.) Plugging the title of an article into a search field at a Web zine, and then linking to the hits page seems like a good example of indiscriminate linking to me. We can't even know what the page will say at any given time. Life.temp (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

You and Igor may be right. What do other people here think? Colin4C (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

A nonAmerican PlayGround

This article certainly has gone through changes over a year or so, little historical reference and filled with blurbs of bigotry based on current events. Most of the American editors have been run off and left happily to nonAmericans, and forever under the watchful eye of Marskell. Congrats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.229.197.54 (talk) 21:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hey. I saw there was a pending request for a third opinion, but I'm not really sure what the issue is. Can someone explain? — HelloAnnyong 21:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The most recent discussion is Talk:Anti-Americanism#Appropriate_Sourcing. There is also an outline of objections to the article here: Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-04-14_Anti-Americanism#Attempt_at_Salvage. In a nutshell, this article violates a number of policies of neutrality. Interpreting something as anti-Americanism is an opinion. So, it should not be asserted as fact. This article asserts those opinions as facts. Saying, or implying, that people are anti-American is usually labeling them in a way they don't accept for themselves, so that also violates Misplaced Pages guidelines on neutrality. The term "anti-American" has a pejorative connotation, so it is triply non-neutral for this article to proceed by calling people anti-American. In short, the article should discuss the fact that people think such-and-such is anti-Americanism, but it should not be asserting those opinions as fact. Almost all of the section on regional attitudes does that. When I made these objections to Colin4C above, he played a word-game over the fact-opinion distinction and reverted my edits.Life.temp (talk) 22:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

So if someone in Iran burns an American flag whilst chanting 'death to America' is than anti-American or not? When Fidel Castro in a recent speech compared the Americans to the Nazis is that anti-American or not? When Hitler declared war on the USA in 1941 was that anti-American or not? Are you saying it is not possible to be anti-American even if you declare war on the United States and kill its citizens? Is this extract from a speech by Castro in 1958 in which he states that he intends to wage war on the USA anti-American?:

"When this war is over a much wider and bigger war will commence for me: the war I am going to wage against them . I am aware that this is my true destiny. We accuse the U.S. government…of selling to the Batista dictatorship the planes and bombs that have killed so many defenseless Cuban civilians. If the U.S. violates our sovereignty we will defend it with dignity…We are ready to die in defense of our people."

Historic anti-Americanism in a useful hermeneutic concept and explains a lot of things which are otherwise mysterious. E.g. why South America continues to oppose United States hegemony after the fall of Communist Russia. Rather than being a by-product of global communism anti-Americanism is a long standing tradition in South America. Read any text-book on South American politics and society and you will see that these facts are as plain as day.

Colin4C (talk) 00:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing remotely anti-American in the Castro quote: "If the US violates our sovereignty we will defend it..." Is it neutral to characterize Bush as anti-Arab? Personally, the only one of your examples I would agree with is the chanting of "Death to America." But it doesn't matter, because the point is neutrality not truth. Misplaced Pages policy is that you can't even call the Ku Klux Klan racist . The point is that there is no reason for an encylcopedia to interpret these things for others. You just describe the Ku Klux Klan, or the Iranian fundamentalists, in the appropriate article and let the reader decide if they are racist or anti-American, or not. That's what it means to be neutral. Life.temp (talk) 01:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You are completely wrong in your interpretation of wikipedia policies on NPOV. The NPOV is a policy for us the editors to be neutral not a way to falsify reality or play politically correct word games. This is an encyclopedia not a spin doctor's operating room. The page you quote Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid is not official policy and has currently been frozen due to an edit war there. See where it says at the top: "This page is currently protected from editing until disputes have been resolved. This protection is not an endorsement of the current version." Colin4C (talk) 09:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

1. Nora Jacobson (2004-11-28). "Before You Flee to Canada, Can We Talk?". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2007-11-09. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

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