| Revision as of 05:25, 7 May 2008 editUbiq (talk | contribs)Pending changes reviewers1,235 edits →A neutral solution← Previous edit | Revision as of 06:05, 7 May 2008 edit undoHailFire (talk | contribs)10,642 edits →A neutral solution: opposeNext edit → | ||
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| :::::Same. --] (]) 05:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC) | :::::Same. --] (]) 05:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :::::'''Oppose'''. Scjessey's proposed edit is a smoothly scripted ]. Ask this: how is the Ayers membership on the Woods Fund board or the hosting of an event in 1996 worthy of inclusion in a ] describing Obama's ]? Isn't any Ayers-related text best handled in the campaign subarticle as other editors here have previously stated? Please help to keep this article's first section evenly weighted and do not let it continue to devolve into a venue for election year attention seeking. --] (]) 06:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Senate Career section changes == | == Senate Career section changes == | ||
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Relationship with William Ayers
Much as the Obama pundits have been deleting this, it's unavoidable that we include Obama's relationship with Ayers, which is going to be a talking point for the rest of his candidacy. Especially considering how poorly he handled the questions about Ayers, and Ayers past, there is no way there won't be questions about it, and people with questions about that will logically come here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fovean Author (talk • contribs)
- Regarding, "which is going to be a talking point", please note that Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. Grsz11 01:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- And regarding "pundit", I do not think that word means what you think it means. --jpgordon 01:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- A pundit (sometimes mispronounced pundant) is someone who offers mass-media opinion, analysis or commentary on a particular subject area (most typically political analysis, the social sciences or sport), on which they are presumed to be knowledgeable. As the term has been increasingly applied to popular media personalities lacking special expertise, however, it can be used in a derogative manner. Pundit is also a slang term for politically biased people attempting to be neutral.
- Pretty much nailed it, I believe. You two clearly have no intention of allowing Obama's Misplaced Pages page to be anything but a pro-Obama puff piece. --Fovean Author
- Rather, can you state what relevance this has to his biography? Grsz11 01:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- And regarding "pundit", I do not think that word means what you think it means. --jpgordon 01:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- It probably more appropriate for the campaign article, unless it becomes more noteworthy. Obama's campaign has acknowledged they are "friendly", but Obama appears friendly with many people, to many to mention in a biography. It is me i think (talk) 01:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's probably only appropriate if it becomes noteworthy at all. Politicians know lots of people. It's a simple guilt by association tactic that, according to policy, should be deleted. Grsz11 01:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- It probably more appropriate for the campaign article, unless it becomes more noteworthy. Obama's campaign has acknowledged they are "friendly", but Obama appears friendly with many people, to many to mention in a biography. It is me i think (talk) 01:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
- Or it could be more appropriate in the IL state senate article, since they know each other from IL, but I am not sure when the relationship fits, but it has been talked about in context of the presidential campaign. It is me i think (talk) 01:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Guilt by association is not sufficient to send someone to jail, but it's a useful and appropriate way to measure a man's character. If you associate with mafioso, you might not be mafia, but we know a little more about your character. If John McCain's 20 year pastor was a racist like David Duke and another long term friend was the Oklahoma bomber it would be newsworthy (at the least).
I don't know why anyone other than an Obama campaign volunteer like Grsz would actively try to hide Obama's associations with a racist (Wright) and a terrorist (Ayers). These two characters (and Obama's wife who is finally proud of America) give important insight into a man which we barely know. 72.196.233.224 (talk) 11:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and your point of view is oh so neutral. Was I the only one who argued against it? No. Thanks, Grsz11 13:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- I wonder if Grsz admits these issues are important now that his candidate got handily spanked in Pennsylvania. 72.205.37.144 (talk) 14:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
We need to include all relevant information, his associations are a huge part of his public persona and the media has noted this many times. Include this information, it's relevant and it's notable. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 10:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I've restored the Ayers information to the article. Clearly we have consensus - even Grsz's criteria of 'if it proves noteworthy.' There isn't anyone in the old or new news media who aren't 'noting it' now. Fovean Author (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
- No. You don't have a consensus. Notability is not the only criteria for inclusion in a BLP. --Ubiq (talk) 03:05, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I DO have a consensus, and 'making Obama look good' is also not a criteria for inclusion. I don't care if this rattles you guys at Obama Campaign Headqarters, but in fact this is a relevant reference to Obama's life, it is WELL documented, and it is pertinant.Fovean Author (talk) 03:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, really. Did Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and John McCain get a Misplaced Pages account that we don't know about? Grsz 03:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I DO have a consensus, and 'making Obama look good' is also not a criteria for inclusion. I don't care if this rattles you guys at Obama Campaign Headqarters, but in fact this is a relevant reference to Obama's life, it is WELL documented, and it is pertinant.Fovean Author (talk) 03:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like 3 editors have stated objections, 2 of which contribute to this article on a normal basis, and 3 editors want it to be included, none of which contribute to this article on a regular basis. You can fling accusations about who you think is an Obama supporter ad nauseam, but it doesn't really help your arguments. The edits in question are not pertinent to his life, are not about events that have had a significant influence about any aspect of his life, and they would only serve to perpetuate an association fallacy, something that an encyclopedia's role does not entail. If you want people to know about it so badly, go write about it in your blog or make a YouTube video or something. It doesn't belong in his biography. --Ubiq (talk) 03:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Nope, the IPs are the same editor. Grsz 03:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Looks like 3 editors have stated objections, 2 of which contribute to this article on a normal basis, and 3 editors want it to be included, none of which contribute to this article on a regular basis. You can fling accusations about who you think is an Obama supporter ad nauseam, but it doesn't really help your arguments. The edits in question are not pertinent to his life, are not about events that have had a significant influence about any aspect of his life, and they would only serve to perpetuate an association fallacy, something that an encyclopedia's role does not entail. If you want people to know about it so badly, go write about it in your blog or make a YouTube video or something. It doesn't belong in his biography. --Ubiq (talk) 03:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- I was counting fovean, quirky and the IP as a total of 3. Either way 3 to 3 is not the consensus he claims. --Ubiq (talk) 03:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the heading about William Ayers because the topic does not deserve its own heading. Whatever verifiable information there is, of course, ought to be included, NPOV as possible, possibly under a heading entitled "controversies," or some other such grouping that could cover other topics as well in such a long article. The point is not to give undue weight to a singular issue for which journalistic coverage and the information generally known to be available do not represent it as equally important as, for instance, the other topics which are given their own headings in the article. - Aratuk (talk) 03:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- It is mentioned - in the article about his campaign, because that's where it's relevant. Grsz 03:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it is a mistake to omit the information about Ayers from this article. The #1 reason I cite is the disparity in the ratio of included controversial material in the B. Obama article and the H. Clinton article. Certainly, if we under-report Obama's controversies (even in brief) from this article, we are putting our thumb on the scale in favor of him. That favoring occurs because naturally, Mr. Obama, being newer to the national political scene, will have less information reported about him. However, it's not the qty of the subject matter reporting that ought to be measured, but rather, how fully in the inclusion or exclusion of the information, informs the reader of the total picture of the person. Obama is now a national figure. Serious allegations and controversies must be mentioned (at least in brief) in the main article. Frankly, it is unprecedented that a leading US Presidential candidate freely associate(s)/(d) with a unrepentant domestic bomber. William Ayers is on recent record as an admitted criminal bomber. Omitting any pointers to that relationship from this article is a gross abdication of perspective and balance. 7390r0g (talk) 06:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm open to a brief (probably one-sentence) mention of the Ayers matter, if we can source it to unimpeachable sources. However, it's worth remembering that the BLP policy will encourage underreporting of any controversy, for any person, because most such "controversies" are pushed by sources which don't meet the high standards of reliability which BLP requires. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any justification for mentioning "the Ayers matter", as you put it. Such a thing would be only be appropriate in the campaign article, insofar as it has been given sensationalist media exposure, but in the context of Obama's life it lacks any significance whatsoever. If a consensus forms to include anything about Ayers, any mention of the whole "weatherman" thing would violate the Misplaced Pages "do no harm" policy. His association with Obama is based on their shared experience with the Woods Fund of Chicago, and not with anything in Ayers' distant past. I believe that the association has been given a more than sufficient treatment here, and I would regard any attempt to add information to this article as a POV push. - Scjessey (talk) 21:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
"I would regard any attempt to add information to this article as a POV push"... interesting. Let me posit a question to you. Are you saying that the mere inclusion of any mention of Ayers is by definition POV? If so, how did you come to that conclusion? As I see it, if your premise is true 'this is inherently POV stuff', then isn't the reciprocal of that premise also true, ie: unilateral exclusion of it is also POV?. Personally, my view is that any United States Senator, by virtue of holding that office, is an extremely notable person, about whom many people are interested to learn more. Senator Obama's relationship/friendhip is not notable because Obama is a Presidential candidate in 2008. No, it's notable because it's illustrative of Obama's comfort level regarding whom he is willing to associate. I remember when Nixon was still alive and close with BeBe Reboza. Suffice it to say, Reboza had some unsavory elements to his background and it was very reasonable that people wanted to know: "Wow - Nixon is pals with Reboza". Likewise, Ayers has a very high profile and unsavory past. The fact that Obama is friends with him does not become exclusive to 2008 campaign. Think about it, if Obama was not running, how would you justify excluding the Ayers connection from this article? The answer is that you couldn't. Ayers is notable and controversial. Obama is close to him. That connection deserves a mention. BTW: If César Chávez were still alive and he were also friends with Obama, would you exclude that fact too - simply because some in the media might be clucking about it? We are letting the tail wag the dog if we let muckrackers/bloggers, etc. force us into capricious limits on fact inclusion - simply because some elements of the media are pronse to hysteria. Ayers is on record as saying "I don't regret setting bombs," Bill Ayers said. "I feel we didn't do enough." . As I see it, that makes Ayers very notable and by extention, his friendship with Obama is notable. Also, as per this Boston Globe article from April 18, 2008 it's reasonably clear that the connection between Obama and Ayers is notable, (albeit controversial as well). Here too is another article, but one which points out Ayers details in another light. LA Times puts their perspective on Obama/Ayers. This link On Hot Air has what I feel is possibly an illuminating quote from a poster "The whole Bill Ayers situation says more about the the left-wing Democrat mob-church that runs Chicago and forgives sins though social action than any social climber that comes though there." Also, Powerline has some readable (if not overwrought) details that add light. Anyway, as I see it, it's this quote ""Like many other tenured and well-heeled radicals, Ayers keeps hoping for a revolutionary upheaval that will finally bring down American capitalism and imperialism," wrote Stern. "But now, instead of planting bombs in bathrooms, has been planting the seeds of resistance and rebellion in America's future teachers, who will then pass on the lesson to the students in their classrooms." from this article which makes clear that Ayers is notable enough that his friendship Obama ought to be mentioned and it shuld be mentioned here, in this article. Ayers, as an unrpentant doer of criminal deeds, because he now has some influence, while still persuing a path of radicalism, is a notable person. And, the fact that the Ayers home was the location which held Obama's very 1st state senate election meeting, makes clear that the Ayers connection predates election 2008. Ayers, a dyed-in-the-wool radical, has been very helpful to and is close to Obama. Omitting that connection is, of itself, a form of POV. I leave it to others to see how it can be mentioned, but mentioned it should be. 7390r0g (talk) 04:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- The Ayers content is included in relevant articles about the 2008 presidential campaign. Please do not continue to re-insert references in this biography with the justification that "omission" is POV. Every event of Obama's political campaigns cannot be included in what is a summary article of his life. Thanks. Harro5 05:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
For the records, I HAVE NOT "inserted" ANY referrences to Ayers into this article. Rather, I am attempting to discuss WHY a modest one SHOULD BE inserted. I ask that yuo cease merely reiterating a routine "NO! It's campaign related" EXCUSE and instead ACTUALLY DISCUSS the pros/cons of inclusion. Here again are the pros:
- 1) Obama is a senator - this makes him notable - regardless of being a pres. candidate.
- 2) Bill Ayers is notable and controversial on his own accord - if you don't believe that read his wiki page!
- 3) Obama's Chicago political career initiated his 1st campaign at a meeting in Ayers home!
- 4) This Ayers help pre-dates by far, election 2008
- 5) Obama has many connections to Ayers going back many years.
Attempting to sweep this away into some other article is blatant manipulation and POV.
I recommend the inclusion of a single sentence in the "Cultural and political image" section of this article:
- In recent times, as his public profile has risen, some of Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko have been the subject of increased scrutiny.
This sentence states indisputable notable facts and is appropriate because the "Cultural and political image" section is a virtual puff-piece for Obama. You can't open the door to personal criticism by having a section called "Cultural and political image" and then refuse to allow any negatives into that section - only positives. Such editng is absurd!
Forcing any and all negatives about Obama's "Cultural and political image" out of the article on the basis of "campaign" makes me question why we even HAVE a section called "Cultural and political image" if we are going to purposefully exclude all unflattering detail from that section... Who's kidding who here? 7390r0g (talk) 14:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- There is no evidence to suggest Obama's relationship with Ayers can be characterized as "close", or "a friendship". What little "relationship" there is can be safely regarded as insignificant. It is true that both individuals are notable, but their relationship to one another is not, except in the minds of the FOX News-watching sheep. Furthermore, a sentence beginning with, "In recent times" is almost certainly going to violate WP:RECENT. This is a clear attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill, and it is laughably transparent. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The only thin "laughably transparent" around here, is the obvious schemes by whitewash minded editors who seek to put 'we love Obama' spin on this article. And for your information, the solution to you complaint is to strike "In recent times", leaving us with:
- "As his public profile has risen, some of Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko have been the subject of increased scrutiny.
Now, with that correction made, does anyone here dare dispute that the above sentence is 100% true? Does anyone DENY that Senator Obama's associations with those two have been the subject of increased scrutiny?
I will wait one day and if no honest-broker reasons for keeping my suggested sentence out appear, I am inserting it. It's a true fact. It's a notable fact. It's germane to the section I intend to put it in and it's written in strictly non-pov manner. Does anyone deny this? 7390r0g (talk) 04:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'd say that wording was true, neutral and appropriate. It's not appropriate to go into details of Obama's relationship with Ayers (or lack thereof), but it has been the subject of media scrutiny. I haven't checked the sources mentioned above, so I'm not sure which (if any) of them would be best to use as a reference for this proposed sentence. Ideally, it should be something from a highly reliable source (not an opinion column or editorial — but analysis is OK) noting the scrutiny and possibly mentioning its effect on Obama's public image. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Where are you intending to insert this sentence? Why are we mentioning Rezko yet again? Only the right wing loonies are "scrutinizing" Obama's connection with Ayers, and filling the sentence out by mentioning Rezko in the same breath may make it seem "true" and "neutral", but it is certainly not appropriate. It is just another guilt-by-association wrap that is best dealt with by the campaign article. There is nothing sinister about Obama's connection with Ayers (who has never been convicted of anything, has become a distinguished professor, and only knows Obama through a connection with a now defunct charity). Why don't we just let Sean Hannity maintain this article by himself? -- Scjessey (talk) 13:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Scjessey, to answer your question "Where are you intending to insert this sentence?": As I stated, the sentence which I intend to insert into this article is:
- "As his public profile has risen, some of Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko have been the subject of increased scrutiny.
and I intend to insert it in the section titled "Cultural and political image". As I see it, that section title and the current content of it, opens the door to the sentence which I wish to put in.
It is simply preposterous to suggest that my sentence is POV in any way - it's not. There is no slander, no slight, no negative in that sentence. My sentence does nothing more than allow the reader to comprehend three 100% true, neutral, germane, salient facts pertaining to Obama's "Cultural and Political image" - those facts being:
- 1) Obama's been associated with these two people.
- 2) Those two people are controversial.
- 3) Obama's association with them has been subject to increased scrutiny.
Frankly, I am not impressed at all with Scjessey arguments on this point. As I see it, he's got WP:OWN problems here and needs to back off. 7390r0g (talk) 20:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Er, no. What you are doing, by mentioning Ayers and Rezko (who are unrelated) in the same sentence is creating a conflation. This is a sum-greater-than-parts approach, and the result is negative POV. This is a common tactic, as evidenced by Andy's comments below. And I'm not sure who you think you are telling me to back off. I am simply trying to ensure the article remains neutral. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:06, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Scjessey, I applaud your pure motives, but I suggest that your vision is clouded here. There is no "conflation" in my suggested sentence. The subject of the sentence is the "increased scrutiny" of "controversial association(s)". My sentence allows a readers to read for themselves - at the corresponding linked articles, who those people are and what they are all about. Scjessey, you presume that a reader of my sentence MUST come away with some adverse conclusion about Obama - because of my sentence. That reasoning is not grounded in the facts at hand, but is based on the negative spin you impute into my sentence. The sentence I am sugegsting, in no way is negative for Obama. Those other individuals stand or fall on their own merits - and the wiki pages for them will reflect that. However, to exclude from this article the truth that Obama's association with those two has come under increased scrutiny - merely because you conjecture that it's a negative (and you do conjecture that - you've been saying POV! POV!), does not make my desired edit fail wiki standards. I ask that you volunteer to put this point of discussion up for a request for comment. I've made my views clear - as have you. Let's not argue. Let's seek wider consensus from the community. 7390r0g (talk) 21:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you don't see the problem with your proposal, but the problem still exists. Your reason for introducing this conflation, as you have already stated is, "the disparity in the ratio of included controversial material in the B. Obama article and the H. Clinton article," which is not an appropriate justification at all. Yes, there has been scrutiny, but that has been a result of the Presidential campaign. The Ayers association motivated by a guilt-by-association agenda, and the conflation with Rezko adds more weight to what would otherwise be a non-story. Furthermore, the actual details of Obama's association with Ayers are already covered in a sub-article where they can be given the appropriate exposure. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:35, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
You entirely miss the point of the sentence, which is: to alert the reader that there has been increased scrutiny of controversial associations. You can't have an entire section about a Senator's "Cultural and Political image" but then screen out factual data points merely because that information might be interpreted as a negative. Our readers are not fools - they can decide for themselves if Ayers and/or Rezko are "bad" (as you seem to suggest our readers will conclude). If as you say, the things with Ayers are all the the past, well then where's the beef? On the other hand, Resko is likely more of a controversy for himself and for Obama as the association there is close and many people are troubled by the charges against Resko (hence the increased scutiny). Also, I see that you did not respond to my suggestion. I think we should open up a request for comment. I want my sentence included in the section I have mentioned and you are opposed to that. We are at an impasse. If you won't agree to seeking wider comment, then I feel that you do indeed have WP:OWN issues here. Yes or no, will you agree to a request for comment? I seek your agreement to go forward on that as I prefer consensus to confrontation. Please reply on this point today. I will look for your answer later on this evening. 7390r0g (talk) 21:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- It is not Misplaced Pages's job to "alert the reader that there has been increased scrutiny of controversial associations," as you put it, as it would violate WP:RECENT. First of all, the Rezko-related material has already been given a treatment in the article so further mentions would violate WP:WEIGHT. Secondly, there is only increased scrutiny on the trivial association with Bill Ayers because Obama is in the middle of a campaign, and because Hannity made a big deal out of it on the radio. There is a case for including it in the campaign article on that basis, but even that is tenuous at best. Thirdly, there is no reason to mention the two associations together other than to conflate the separate issues to push a negative agenda. Fourthly, you do not need my permission or consent to seek a request for comment, as it seems you are extremely fond of doing. Finally, I resent you implication that I somehow claim ownership of the article. There is no evidence in my edit history to support your claim. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
It's evident that you are combatively closed-minded and are not interested in reaching common ground. And frankly, I resent your mocking tone and your wiki-lawyering. I am inserting the sentence as per above. If you don't like it, you can start an RFC - I offered that to you. 7390r0g (talk) 23:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Try to be a bit more civil if you can. Scjessey raises some good points. BLPs don't serve as a news source, and it isn't our job in this article to "alert the reader that there has been increased scrutiny of controversial associations" so much as to inform the reader about Barack Obama's life. Criteria for inclusion in a BLP isn't merely: 1. fact 2. sourced. It has to be demonstrated that this holds particular relevance to his life, and as Scjessey alluded to, it might be quite a bit too early to show that it does. Obama has also been criticized and drawn scrutiny for a vast number of things due to the territory that comes with being a presidential candidate. We can't list them all in his BLP just because they happen to facts. --Ubiq (talk) 23:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Ubiq, your personal attack against me ("Try to be a bit more civil if you can") reeks of snideness and is unwarranted, please withdraw it. Further, I am be fully civil, 100%. Now, as to the sentence under discussion, are you saying we are not the "alert the reader" to things? Frankly, if that's the case, why are we telling the readers what (for example) Andrew Sullivan and other commentators think? Why is that relevant and the sentence I advance here, not? Further, you are attempting to twist my dialog on this page so as to impeach the merit of my edit. The merit of my edit speaks for itself. I've added many reasons here, but why I get in return is wiki-lawyering and insults. Frankly, I think this page is well overdue for some RFC input - we could use some fresh insight. Also, there is no BLP violation with my sentence and it's false to say that there is. I will tell you though, now that I see the retorts my sincere efforts have been slapped with, I understand why this article is such a squsihy blob of puffery. Just look what happens on the talk page - try to add A SINGLE SENTENCE and you get reams and reams of legalistic justifications to block it. My word, I amazed that there is so much WP:OWN vigor on this page. 7390r0g (talk) 01:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think you have actually read WP:OWN, which has no relevancy to this. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Scjessey, please stop leaping to conclusions and hurling insults. How can you say "I don't think you have actually read..." without asking me first? That's very insulting - and evidently, intentionally so. Frankly, if you keep this up, I feel that I should report you for user conduct. Now for your informationm, you can find this "If you create or edit an article, know that others will edit it, and within reason you should not prevent them from doing so." at WP:OWN and it's EXACTLY what I am suggesting you are doing - and you are doing it in violation of the spirit (and guidelines of this wiki) so please stop!. I am going to ask you again: yes or no, will you agree to a content RFC regarding this disagreement? I believe we can benefit ffrom outside input? Will you agree to that? 7390r0g (talk) 01:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- Look. I'm only going to say this one more time because it is clear you are just ignoring all common sense here. The sentence you are trying to add is not appropriate in this article for the following reasons:
- It violates WP:BLP with respect to WP:HARM#TEST because you are trying to use guilt-by-association by drawing attention to Obama's tenuous relationship to Bill Ayers because of something Obama has nothing to do with.
- It violates WP:WEIGHT because it suggests an increase of scrutiny over Tony Rezko, where none exists, and because Rezko is already covered in the article.
- It violates WP:NPOV because the mention of Ayers and Rezko in the same sentence, whose controversies are not related, is a conflation that introduces a negative point-of-view, even if that is not your intention.
- It violates WP:RECENT because it draws attention to recent campaign events, and has no longevity in a biography of Obama's entire life.
- It violates WP:RS because... well.... you didn't actually provide any at all.
- It violates WP:OR because you made the sentence up yourself, without referring to, or including any, reliable sources.
- So can you understand why I would think this sentence would be inappropriate now? It violates five Misplaced Pages policies and two essays. Do you really think this article would have reached and maintained FA status if the editors had let folks throw in any old bit of unsourced original research? Please consider self-reverting your edit, for which you have no consensus for introducing. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- You are free to file an RFC any time you want and don't need the approval of others to do so. I don't think your behavior on this talk page is acceptable. Your notion that my suggestion for you to be a bit more civil somehow constitutes a personal attack (and subsequent demand for a retraction) is a prime example. I'm not going to engage in discussion with you unless I see you being nicer and less combative. I'd recommend Scjessey to do the same. As it stands, there is no consensus for inclusion of this disputed content and the edit has been reverted. Go for an RFC if you feel this still warrants inclusion. --Ubiq (talk) 02:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's way harsh, Tai 7390r0g (talk) 14:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- For better or worse, right-wing loonies like Sean Hannity have an influence on our national discourse these days. We can't ignore that reality. Of course, we shouldn't pretend that they're reliable sources of factual information, but they do have an influence on public perceptions. I don't think it's appropriate to argue the details of how much Obama did or didn't have a relationship with Ayers here, but it is appropriate to note that some media sources have pushed the relationship as a story, and that it's had an impact in some quarters. If you can find a reliable source discussing the way that right-wing media have pushed the story, the one sentence could say something like ""As his public profile has risen, some conservative media outlets have scrutinized Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko.'" But again, I haven't checked the sources to see what they say. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- My contention is that this issue does not seem to be biographically relevant. It is already covered in here, and that should be more than sufficient. Also, the attempt to conflate Ayers with Rezko is a clear POV-push. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- For better or worse, right-wing loonies like Sean Hannity have an influence on our national discourse these days. We can't ignore that reality. Of course, we shouldn't pretend that they're reliable sources of factual information, but they do have an influence on public perceptions. I don't think it's appropriate to argue the details of how much Obama did or didn't have a relationship with Ayers here, but it is appropriate to note that some media sources have pushed the relationship as a story, and that it's had an impact in some quarters. If you can find a reliable source discussing the way that right-wing media have pushed the story, the one sentence could say something like ""As his public profile has risen, some conservative media outlets have scrutinized Senator Obama's personal associations with controversial figures such as Bill Ayers and Tony Rezko.'" But again, I haven't checked the sources to see what they say. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 20:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's way harsh, Tai 7390r0g (talk) 14:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- The Woods Fund is defunct? The $1M Obama voted to invest with Davis is gone? What happened to the other $71M? Nah, it's just Scjessey being wrong again. Actually, what's really needed is a sentence in Early Life and Career about Ayers (not convicted, but an admitted and unrepentant bomber), then chairman of the WF BoD, naming Junior Associate Obama to a Directorship ($6,000/yr back when Obama needed it) and also hosting Obama's first meet-and-greet when he first ran for office, to which run Rezko was the first substantial contributor. Obama barely knows the guy's name of course. It's just wonderful how these guys he barely knows do so much for him. Only in America. Andyvphil (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Here's another board. Joyce Foundation, 8 yr, $70,000. How many of these? Adds up to how much of what the guy was doing for a living? Andyvphil (talk) 14:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, yeah. This is the anti-gun foundation that his wife wanted him to quit politics, after the Rush defeat, to become president of. No mention in his bio, though. Andyvphil (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I had incorrectly assumed that the charity had become defunct because their domain was no longer resolving. My bad. That being said, all the details you describe above are irrelevant, since in the context of this BLP we can regard the "weatherman" characterization as "inadmissible" per the policy to "do no harm". Ayers is a distinguished professor and a civic leader in Chicago, and it is hardly surprising that Obama has had some association with him - an association that was of a largely philanthropic nature. The controversies of Ayers' past have nothing to do with Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wright, Ayers, Rezko, Davis. Nothing to do with Obama. "...in the context of this BLP we can regard the 'weatherman' characterization as 'inadmissible' per the policy to 'do no harm'"??? Good one! Can't mention that bomber business, or the dead people! ROFL!!! Andyvphil (talk) 14:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well, no. Obama didn't bomb anyone or kill anyone. And trying to conflate Wright, Ayers, Rezko and Davis is just a POV-push, Andy. They are unrelated. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Conflating Wright and Ayers may be a POV-push, but if so it's one shared by NBC and The Wall Street Journal, which asked voters in a recent poll to describe how concerned they were by the issue which they described as "It is hard to know Barack Obama’s values because he has friends like Reverend Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers." That sounds like push polling to me, but that's what they asked, and 32% of the people surveyed said they had "major concerns". Now, we can't tell from that how much of the concern stems from Ayers and how much from Wright, but it would seem to indicate that Ayers is being treated as an issue affecting Obama's image by reliable sources. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, no. Obama didn't bomb anyone or kill anyone. And trying to conflate Wright, Ayers, Rezko and Davis is just a POV-push, Andy. They are unrelated. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wright, Ayers, Rezko, Davis. Nothing to do with Obama. "...in the context of this BLP we can regard the 'weatherman' characterization as 'inadmissible' per the policy to 'do no harm'"??? Good one! Can't mention that bomber business, or the dead people! ROFL!!! Andyvphil (talk) 14:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well the issue above relates to conflating Ayers and Rezko, and the sentence in question was some original research that was not even placed in the campaign section. And that poll also asks about the flag pin, so perhaps we should have a sentence that points to the increased scrutiny (more than Ayers and Rezko combined) over his lack of a flag pin, which proves he hates America and is probably an evil Muslim terrorist? -- Scjessey (talk) 12:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, no — in part because that poll shows that the vast majority of voters (59%) have no real concerns over the flag pin business, and another 14% have only minor concerns. Only 27% have "major" or "moderate" concerns about flag pins (which is frankly far too many, but that's my own opinion). However, a significant minority (32%) said they have "major concerns" about Obama's past association with Wright and Ayers, and another 15% have moderate concerns. That's nearly half the electorate. I think that's a view which should be represented in the article — not with undue weight, but with a brief mention. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sigh. Even if there is polling data to indicate that Obama's association with Ayers is a problem, this is still a fly on the back of a hippo in terms of significance. Besides, it's a campaign issue (if anything) and it violates WP:RECENT. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- What is a significant minority? And to what end would we keep providing such data with the assistance of our evaluation of a poll? Presumably, significant minorities have concerns about other things too. I've read that ~8% percent of voters in some states admit not wanting to vote for him because he's black, though some have suggested the number is likely much more than this. Should we include a sentence about this? I'm just a bit puzzled as to why such things would be mentioned in his BLP. I don't see anything like that in John McCain's or Hillary Clinton's article. I also don't see, whether he wins or loses in November, why these mentions would be particularly relevant to his life. I think his public image has certainly taken a hit following from the media scrutiny, and I could see how we could perhaps provide a short paragraph to show this shift, but I do think we would need to give it some time before we do this. His image could go back up for one reason or another and ultimately the downward shift would be rendered irrelevant to his life. --Ubiq (talk) 22:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
As an example of a noteworthy critic lumping Rezko, Wright and Ayers together, see this column by Charles Krauthammer, which contains the sentence, "Then came the three amigos: Tony Rezko, the indicted fixer; Jeremiah Wright, the racist reverend; William Ayers, the unrepentant terrorist." Of course, he's obviously pushing his own agenda there, but it's further evidence of the aforementioned "scrutiny". (Someone who wasn't trying to follow NPOV might very well call it mud-throwing rather than scrutiny, but I couldn't possibly comment.) Some of us may think the Ayers question insignificant, but we've got to include all significant viewpoints, and like it or not there is a significant viewpoint which holds that Obama's associations with Ayers are problematic. We need at least to mention him in the article, and I think the proposed "scrutiny" sentence is an appropriate level. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sure. Go for it. And on that note, there is a significant viewpoint that he's elitist and out of touch. That should probably be included as well. --Ubiq (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- And don't forget the flag pin thing. There are loads of reliable sources for that as well, and for Michelle's lack of pride in her country. Oh, and don't forget to mention his poor bowling effort while you're at it. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- While I am for once in complete agreement with Josiah Rowe, let me also add that the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to be able to look information up and to follow links from article to article, NOT to make political candidates 'look good.' It is absolutely likely that someone is going to have a question about Ayers' and Obama's relationship and start looking here. The same with Jeremiah Wright, the same with Rezko. Those who fight this because they believe they're conceding to the bad press about Obama do the whole project a disservice -- Fovean Author (talk) 3:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
A neutral solution
There is a way that we can mention Obama's association with Bill Ayers without using the non-neutral solution proposed above, and that is by describing his involvement with the Woods Fund of Chicago:
- Between 1993 and 2002, Obama served on the board the Woods Fund of Chicago, a philanthropic organization providing grants to Chicago's disadvantaged people and communities. In 1999 he was joined on the board by Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. This association would later draw scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign.
I am not sure if the source I have used passes WP:RS (although this archived discussion says it does), but I believe this approach is better than simply saying that Obama's association with Ayers is drawing scrutiny. Anyway, I'm going to replace Kossack4Truth's poorly-sourced POV edit for this new version. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why all the obsession with suppressing factual threads. At the least one should also mention the importance of Ayers to Obama's support. Ayers was more than just another friend. Ayers was a significant "rite of passage" persona in the Chicago scene. Their combined role on the Woods Fund board (a small and intimate board) in funding one million to Rezko is rather important since that's about one third of the annual budget for Woods, not to mention the other questionable grants made in their jont tenure to fund organisations linked to terrorism. This article should not be just another "puff piece" for Obama's campaign, but provide a spectrum of information on the man. Cdcdoc (talk) 14:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- This article is written in a summary style, and cannot sustain the level of detail you are seeking without imposing undue weight. My solution alerts the reader to an association with Bill Ayers without risking defamation (Kossack's version described him as an "unrepentant bomber") or conflation (by linking Wright, Rezko and Ayers in the same sentence) and provides blue links to Bill Ayers and the campaign article where the reader can learn more. This approach is consistent with the rest of the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- (@ Cdcdoc, referring to these edits) I removed your recent contribution which was inaccurate and misleading. Exelon has 17,200 employees. The NYT reported the combined contributions of the employees and executives for over a number of years(presumably including contributions that date to the article's recent publication and not just prior to Obama's work on the bill). But you incorrectly attributed the aggregate contribution to the company itself and not to its employees and executives. Even if you had, the amount in question may not have preceded Obama's work as you stated. Furthermore, there is a substantial difference between the NYT raising concerns of undue influence and a contrived statement implying quid pro quo. Modocc (talk) 19:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Coming in a bit late here (I got distracted at Jeremiah Wright controversy), but I support Scjessey's solution to the Ayers matter. Seems very reasonable to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I support Scjessey's edit too, as I simply forgot to mention above, having been hurried. The solution is great, a bloody brilliant edit, as it adds in the relevant information needed at the appropriate level. Modocc (talk) 17:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Coming in a bit late here (I got distracted at Jeremiah Wright controversy), but I support Scjessey's solution to the Ayers matter. Seems very reasonable to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Same. --Ubiq (talk) 05:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. Scjessey's proposed edit is a smoothly scripted shoehorn. Ask this: how is the Ayers membership on the Woods Fund board or the hosting of an event in 1996 worthy of inclusion in a summary section describing Obama's early life and career? Isn't any Ayers-related text best handled in the campaign subarticle as other editors here have previously stated? Please help to keep this article's first section evenly weighted and do not let it continue to devolve into a venue for election year attention seeking. --HailFire (talk) 06:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Senate Career section changes
Lots of changes here. Comments welcome. --HailFire (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- The reorganization makes sense to me, and I approve of the removal of some less-than-essential content such as the Senator Barack Obama Primary School in Kenya. (Details, as always, are in the relevant daughter article.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of "less-than-essential content", yet again Andy has decided to take it upon himself to expand the NJ and ADA ratings to include information that isn't necessary for a summary section of Obama's senate career. I've moved his additional information to Obama's senate career article and removed it from this article. I've also shifted Obama's response to the NJ's rating to the sentence following the rating's sentence. While I understand why his response was located where it was (to counter both the NJ and ADA ratings), since the response is specifically to the NJ's rating and not to the ADA rating, it just seems odd to me to have his response after the ADA's rating. --Bobblehead 17:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- And yet again, Andy has taken it upon himself to revert my moving of his detail to the sub-article without discussion. What is everyone else's opinion of having TNJ's and ADA's ratings to the detail that Andy would like them to have.. I'm of the opinion the detail is completely unnecessary for the main article and is better placed in the sub-article (where it already is). --Bobblehead 15:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of "less-than-essential content", yet again Andy has decided to take it upon himself to expand the NJ and ADA ratings to include information that isn't necessary for a summary section of Obama's senate career. I've moved his additional information to Obama's senate career article and removed it from this article. I've also shifted Obama's response to the NJ's rating to the sentence following the rating's sentence. While I understand why his response was located where it was (to counter both the NJ and ADA ratings), since the response is specifically to the NJ's rating and not to the ADA rating, it just seems odd to me to have his response after the ADA's rating. --Bobblehead 17:31, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've gotta say that I don't really have a huge opinion on this. I can do with either. I would suggest that it doesn't harm the article to include it here. So why not hold hands and sing kumbaya and include it to keep the tension down around here. (Or the other way around) Arkon (talk) 16:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- No, it is clearly wrong to include it because it goes into specific (and in some cases, slightly dubious) details that seem horribly out of place in the summary-style prose. Rolling over to the POV-pushers in the hope they will play nice doesn't work, because once they get their way on something they just start a new battle elsewhere. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- That wasn't really helpful. Arkon (talk) 16:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- And a suggestion that we "hold hands and sing kumbaya" is? Suggesting that these changes would "keep the tension down around here" is not sufficient reason for inclusion. I'm not opposed to the votes being in the article, but they'd really need to be summarized. There's no reason to spend time going into excessive detail on them. --Ubiq (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Uh, yeah, it is. Working together, keeping the heat down, is, very, helpful. Now excuse me while I go buy some more commas. Arkon (talk) 17:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Well, obviously working together and keeping the heat down are helpful in reducing tension. But working together doesn't entail blindly accepting one version just to appease the person who wants it to be included. --Ubiq (talk) 17:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- The article history clearly demonstrates that POV-pushers (editors who do almost nothing but add or restore negative POV) will not accept compromise, and the result is that neutral editors just "give in" to try to restore stability. Such an approach is unacceptable. Bobblehead's edits are being continuously reverted by Andy, which is considered disruptive. Andy likes to burden the article with negative details of little or no significance in order to redress what he sees as an imbalance. If the neutral editors acquiesced to every POV-push by Andy, the article would be double the length and a distortion of reality. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) See I think this is part of the problem though. I give a rather bland 'meh' response about the inclusion of the materials after bobblehead asked for input and the next few responses are riddled with "POV-pusher" language. As if that is the only type of person who would disagree. Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning anything done by some legitimate pov pushers, but the reflexive fallback to that at every turn is not helping matters. Arkon (talk) 17:22, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Arkon, I don't think the "POV-pusher" language is being aimed at anyone that would disagree that the details are not necessary for this article, but rather at the specific editor that is adding them. Not that I agree with the usage of the language (I agree that isn't particularly helpful). --Bobblehead 17:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, this is the version Bobblehead wanted:
The National Journal, which uses 99 roll call votes it sees as important and useful in drawing ideological distinctions, identified Obama as "the most liberal senator" in 2007 after ranking him 16th most liberal in 2005 and 10th most liberal in 2004. Asked about the Journal's characterization of his voting record, Obama expressed doubts about the survey's methodology and blamed "old politics" categorization of political positions as "conservative" or "liberal" for creating predispositions that prevent problem-solving. Ratings of Obama's liberalism by the Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), based on 20 ADA-selected votes each year, declined from 100% in 2005 to 95% in 2006 and 75% in 2007.
...and this is the version I replaced that with:
The National Journal, in its 27th annual vote ratings, identified Obama as "the most liberal senator" in 2007 after ranking him 16th most liberal in 2005 and 10th most liberal in 2006. Of the Senate's 442 roll-call votes the publication chose 99 as important and useful in drawing ideological distinctions. Obama voted for the "liberal position" on 65 of 66 occasions, missing 33 of the votes. Ratings of Obama's liberalism by the Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), based on 20 ADA-selected votes each year, declined from 100% in 2005 to 95% (one vote the ADA counted as not-liberal) in 2006 and 75% (five missed votes) in 2007. Asked about the Journal's characterization of his voting record, Obama expressed doubts about the survey's methodology and blamed "old politics" categorization of political positions as "conservative" or "liberal" for creating predispositions that prevent problem-solving.
Not too crazy about that last sentence, which half-regurgitates some incoherent Media Matters criticism of Politico 's characterization of Obama's response which we nonetheless repeat unmodified, meanwhile making the cite an indirect one, but I'm not responsible for it. I only moved it back to the end of the paragraph, since it's point is that Obama rejects the label "liberal" though somehow, if you read the transcript, "progressive" is fine. The sentence needs reconsideration and probably rollback to an earlier, simpler, version, but that's not what's at issue now.
Bobblehead's sentence on the ADA is simply misleading, as it implies Obama is becoming less "liberal", year by year. My version makes it clear that in 55 votes he voted the ADA-approved way 54 times.
It also shows that in 2007 Obama voted in the way a pure liberal would be expected to by the NJ 65 of 66 times, missing 33 of the 99 votes selected from 442 that year. Bobblehead gives the number 99 with no context whatsoever and gives no idea of why the NJ would conclude Obama was liberal other than bald assertion.
The second version is simply more informative. If ignorance is pro-Obama I guess that makes it anti-Obama. Andyvphil (talk) 11:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- As I pointed out below, what you see as being "more informative" others might call "original research". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 11:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Reporting what a cite says in greater detail is not OR. Andyvphil (talk) 04:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
More edit warring
There's more back-and-forth edit warring going on over this material. Let's discuss it piece by piece, see what the general view is and whether there's room for compromise. (I'm signing each section so that people can reply to the relevant bit without it being confusing who said what.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 10:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Details of ideological ranking
Version 1 (originated by HailFire, I think):
The National Journal, which uses 99 roll call votes it sees as important and useful in drawing ideological distinctions, identified Obama as "the most liberal senator" in 2007 after ranking him 16th most liberal in 2005 and 10th most liberal in 2004. Asked about the Journal's characterization of his voting record, Obama expressed doubts about the survey's methodology and blamed "old politics" categorization of political positions as "conservative" or "liberal" for creating predispositions that prevent problem-solving. Ratings of Obama's liberalism by the Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), based on 20 ADA-selected votes each year, declined from 100% in 2005 to 95% in 2006 and 75% in 2007.
Version 2 (originated by AndyvPhil):
The National Journal, in its 27th annual vote ratings, identified Obama as "the most liberal senator" in 2007. Of the Senate's 442 roll-call votes the publication chose 99 as important and useful in drawing ideological distinctions. Obama voted fot the "liberal position" on 65 of 66 occasions, missing 33 of the votes. Ratings of Obama's liberalism by the Americans for Democratic Action (ADA), based on 20 ADA-selected votes each year, declined from 100% in 2005 to 95% (one vote the ADA counted as not-liberal) in 2006 and 75% (five missed votes) in 2007. Asked about the Journal's characterization of his voting record, Obama expressed doubts about the survey's methodology and blamed "old politics" categorization of political positions as "conservative" or "liberal" for creating predispositions that prevent problem-solving.
Some of the material in Version 2 seems like irrelevant detail to me (why would readers care that the 2007 ratings were the 27th annual?) Additionally, some of the wording ("one vote the ADA counted as not-liberal") is extraordinarily clumsy. But most important, I worry that analyzing the details of these ratings is original research. If we're going to include this sort of vote rating, we should either cite the score as reported by each organization, or (if we want to add analysis) cite a reliable third party which has analyzed the material. We can't dissect it ourselves. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 10:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've addressed the problems with Bobblehead's version above. The point of "27th annual" is to counter the idea, expressed on this page when someone first added mention of the NJ rating, that they just fell out of a tree and started doing this to trash Obama. I can live without it, and if you find "not-liberal" clumsy fell free to substitute something better, but that's not the kind of edit that this text is getting from the pro-Obama crewe. Your concerns about WP:OR are unfounded. Everything said about the NJ and the ADA ratings conforms to WP:PSTS, q.v. Andyvphil (talk) 11:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
How about:
CQ Weekly, a nonpartisan publication, has characterized him as a "loyal Democrat" based on analysis of all Senate votes cast in 2005–2007, and the National Journal ranked him as the "most liberal" senator based on an assessment of 99 selected votes during 2007.<ref>Nather, David (January 14 2008). "The Space Between Clinton and Obama". CQ Weekly. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: Curry, Tom (February 21 2008). "What Obama's Senate Votes Reveal". MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-27.{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help)</ref><ref>"Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal. January 31 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help)</ref> Asked about the Journal's characterization of his voting record, Obama expressed doubts about the survey's methodology and blamed "old politics" labeling of political positions as "conservative" or "liberal" for creating predispositions that prevent problem-solving.<ref>"Obama Interview" (transcript). WJLA-TV. Politico. February 12 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: Toner, Robin (March 23 2008). "Obama's Promise of a New Majority". International Herald Tribune. also NYT version (published 2008-03-25). Retrieved 2008-04-30.{{cite news}}: Check|first=value (help); Check date values in:|date=(help); External link in(help)</ref>|publisher=
--HailFire (talk) 12:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I guess Toner is better than Media Matters(except you don't use any of the content) but it otherwise looks just like Bobblehead, ADA-deletion, no-context "99", and corroded last sentence and all. We've got plenty of room. Take Toner and run with it. See what you can do to characterize Obama's record. The remnant you suggest is a non-starter. Andyvphil (talk) 13:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- The problem here is that we are trying to square the circle. Andy is correct in that missing out some of the information he has been adding is going to give a misleading picture. But keeping all that information gives us a paragraph that contains too much detail for a BLP, and probably too much weight to the subject. It is hard to summarize statistics without conducting original research - that's just the way it is. I have long been in favor of removing all the numbers completely, mainly for these reasons:
- We have a good source that uses the term "loyal democrat" - a characterization that neutrally represents CQ's data.
- Statistics cannot be summarized without compromising their integrity.
- Liberal/conservative rankings based on votes are unreliable - many votes are cast based on objections to attached earmarks, or specific wording, rather than to the central issue.
- A campaigning candidate will always have a smaller voting sample, leading to inaccuracy.
- All that being said, I certainly think that Obama's voting record can be thoroughly explored in the Senate career article without the need to compromise. With that in mind, I think a one-sentence treatment can be added to Barack Obama#Political positions (along the lines of "Obama has been described as a 'loyal democrat.'") with the CQ reference attached. I don't think we are going to be able to create an acceptable summary paragraph without resorting to original research. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm thinking the CQ one sentence summarization is a bit too short, if only because the most notable of the three ratings is the TNJ rating. I also don't think that not including the detail beyond the 95% is "compromising the integrity" of the statistics. It's very common in statistics to leave out the details and only report the percentages. Perhaps we could use wording more inline with the VoteSmart source on ADA and word it as "Obama supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005, 95 percent 2006, and 75 percent in 2007." Or if including the word "Liberal" is so important, "The Americans for Democratic Action gave Obama a Liberal Quotient of 100% in 2005, 95% in 2006, and 75% in 2007," --130.76.32.182 (talk) 17:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- The problem here is that we are trying to square the circle. Andy is correct in that missing out some of the information he has been adding is going to give a misleading picture. But keeping all that information gives us a paragraph that contains too much detail for a BLP, and probably too much weight to the subject. It is hard to summarize statistics without conducting original research - that's just the way it is. I have long been in favor of removing all the numbers completely, mainly for these reasons:
"a practicing Muslim"
I'm of two minds whether this is relevant or not. The evidence of whether Lolo Soetoro was a practicing Muslim is somewhat equivocal. Certainly, he was a nominal Muslim and attended mosque on occasion. But we've also got reliable sources saying that he was "much more of a free spirit than a devout Muslim, according to former friends and neighbors", and "hardly the image of a pious Muslim". And Obama's sister has said, "My father saw Islam as a way to connect with the community. He never went to prayer services except for big communal events. I am absolutely certain that my father did not go to services every Friday. He was not religious." Now, you may question Maya Soetoro-Ng's veracity, but this shows that baldly describing Lolo Soetoro as "a practicing Muslim" isn't uncontroversial. Early life and career of Barack Obama goes into some of this detail, but I think that it's too tangential to include here. And without that detail, we'd be violating NPOV if we simply say that he was a practicing Muslim. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 10:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- On the contrary, it is absolutely uncontroversial that Lolo Soetero was a practicing Muslim. Not "devout" or "pious" or "fanatical" or "conservative" or "Wahabbi" , but "Like many Indonesians, Lolo followed a brand of Islam that could make room for the remnants of more ancient animist and Hindu faiths." (Dreams From My Father, Barack Obama, emphasis added.) He went to the mosque, he prayed, he took Barry there, he practiced. I don't question his half-sister's veracity here, just the clarity of her vocabulary. She seems to be using "religious" as a synonym for "pious". But it's absolutely uncontroversial that Lolo Soetero practiced a faith and called it Islam. Describing him only as "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful" is completely misleading. Andyvphil (talk) 12:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Seriously, guys? I can't believe that we are arguing over his father's religious practices. Is there mention in the articles of other public figures about their parents' church attendance? Should we mention how many church ceremonies John McCain's parents attended... or discuss whether John F. Kennedy (and the other Kennedys) truly believed/believe that the mother of Jesus was a virgin? Personally, I am an atheist, so I don't see any religion as more or less valid than another... but it seems that the edit warring here is only due to the fact that Islam is the religion in question and not Christianity. Let's try to get past it. Paisan30 (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's not just Lolo who went to the mosque for Friday prayer. Lolo took Barry. That's an unusual experience for an American presidential candidate. Anyway, your suggestion is we just delete the paragraph? Andyvphil (talk) 13:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I partially agree with Paisan30. There is currently too much detail on the religious beliefs of his family, and it appears that we are having difficulty verifying at least one of those details. If in doubt, leave it out is my mantra, when faced with a circumstance like this. A Republican smear campaign, stoked by Hillary's "as far as I know" comment, has made this an issue that really should be addressed. Perhaps we could say something like:
- ...and his Indonesian stepfather as a Muslim, "who saw religion as not particularly useful."
- That would take care of the difficulty in verifying his stepfather's Muslimness. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Aside from the typo should be "...and his Indonesian stepfather was a Muslim,...", I'm fine with Scjessey's proposal. --130.76.32.182 (talk) 17:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- In the context of the paragraph, it should be "as" - " his Indonesian stepfather as a Muslim, 'who saw religion as not particularly useful.'" -- Scjessey (talk) 17:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- In fact, I have made this change in anticipation of agreement. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- The cited pages from Audacity, 202-208, contain no identification of Obama's stepfather as "a Muslim", practicing or otherwise. Also, this addition is entirely inappropriate here in the context of Obama's adult religious beliefs. I've removed it. Please do not make additions without verifying them first by checking the cited source. --HailFire (talk) 18:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Okay I see what the problem is. In "The Audacity of Hope", Obama says his Indonesian stepfather was "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful." In "Dreams from My Father", he wrote "ike many Indonesians, Lolo followed a brand of Islam that could make room for the remnants of more ancient animist and Hindu faiths." If we are going to say that his stepfather was a Muslim (in any capacity), we would have to use both sources. That would mean the paragraph would need a complete rewrite. Perhaps this could be expanded upon in a footnote instead? -- Scjessey (talk) 18:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- How about adding a double reference after the quote, like this:
- <ref>Obama (2006), p. 204. Obama wrote in the '']'', "When my mother remarried, it was to an Indonesian with an equally skeptical bent, a man who saw religion as not particularly useful in the practical business of making one's way in the world, and who had grown up in a country that easily blended its Islamic faith with remnants of Hinduism, Buddhism, and ancient animist traditions."</ref><ref>Obama (1995), p. 77. Obama wrote in '']'', "Like many Indonesians, Lolo followed a brand of Islam that could make room for the remnants of more ancient animist and Hindu faiths."</ref>
- Does that work? -- Scjessey (talk) 19:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not here. The paragraph is about how Obama has chosen to characterize his own spiritual path. The "his Indonesian stepfather as a Muslim" edit
that you and Andy are trying so hard to include here (and attribute to Obama's own statements)can't be verifiably sourced because it is a misreading of what Obama has written. --HailFire (talk) 19:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)- Excuse me? I am not "trying so hard" to include it. I'd be perfectly happy to exclude any mention of Islam (or Christianity, for that matter) because I believe faith (or the lack thereof) is a personal thing that should not be paraded in public or used to influence politics. The fact is, however, that the Republicans and the Clinton campaign have tried to use Obama's Muslim relatives to leverage their agendas, and it would be silly to ignore it completely - especially because Obama himself talks about his relatives in both books. The references I suggested above are direct quotes from his books that I have sourced from Obama's campaign website, and not a "misreading" of anything. I was suggesting putting these references in instead of the modified text (keeping the existing version). Thanks for lumping me in with Andy and making me laugh, by the way. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not here. The paragraph is about how Obama has chosen to characterize his own spiritual path. The "his Indonesian stepfather as a Muslim" edit
- How about adding a double reference after the quote, like this:
- Okay I see what the problem is. In "The Audacity of Hope", Obama says his Indonesian stepfather was "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful." In "Dreams from My Father", he wrote "ike many Indonesians, Lolo followed a brand of Islam that could make room for the remnants of more ancient animist and Hindu faiths." If we are going to say that his stepfather was a Muslim (in any capacity), we would have to use both sources. That would mean the paragraph would need a complete rewrite. Perhaps this could be expanded upon in a footnote instead? -- Scjessey (talk) 18:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- The cited pages from Audacity, 202-208, contain no identification of Obama's stepfather as "a Muslim", practicing or otherwise. Also, this addition is entirely inappropriate here in the context of Obama's adult religious beliefs. I've removed it. Please do not make additions without verifying them first by checking the cited source. --HailFire (talk) 18:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- In fact, I have made this change in anticipation of agreement. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- In the context of the paragraph, it should be "as" - " his Indonesian stepfather as a Muslim, 'who saw religion as not particularly useful.'" -- Scjessey (talk) 17:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Aside from the typo should be "...and his Indonesian stepfather was a Muslim,...", I'm fine with Scjessey's proposal. --130.76.32.182 (talk) 17:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I partially agree with Paisan30. There is currently too much detail on the religious beliefs of his family, and it appears that we are having difficulty verifying at least one of those details. If in doubt, leave it out is my mantra, when faced with a circumstance like this. A Republican smear campaign, stoked by Hillary's "as far as I know" comment, has made this an issue that really should be addressed. Perhaps we could say something like:
Details of Trinity UCC
Andy wants to include this in the "Personal life" section:
A megachurch with 10,000 members, Trinity is the largest congregation in the United Church of Christ. The religious doctrine it teaches is black liberation theology.
I simply think this detail is unnecessary; readers can find more information about Trinity by following the link to Trinity United Church of Christ. George W. Bush doesn't go into details about his personal theology (surprisingly, even the daughter article Religious faith of George W. Bush doesn't talk about his being born-again). Trinity and Jeremiah Wright have become campaign issues, but that's not enough of a reason why we should have to discuss the details of the church's membership or theology. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 10:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- You think Bush's articles ought not say he self-identifies as "born again"??? I think it's inexcusable that his articles don't say so. He says his Christianity is important, and I think we should take that seriously enough to identify what flavor of that faith it is. And similarly for Obama. Saying "Religion - Christian: (United Church of Christ)" doesn't mean much. If black liberation theology is an insignificant "detail" it's hard to see why we bother mentioning anything in this article. Andyvphil (talk) 12:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Andy is correct when he says that black liberation theology is a significant part of what Trinity is about - the church was founded in the '60s around that particular theology, and still continues to evoke it today. Black liberation theology is more about empowering blacks that feel put down by what they see as a ruling white class, and the church often evokes that theme - although not in an "anti-white" manner as some have been saying. All that said, Josiah is correct when he says that such details are not necessary in this particular article. There is no suggestion that Obama attends Trinity because he agrees with this particular theology (in fact, he pointedly has said he does not). Specifics about Trinity, such as what it is and how large its congregation is, belong in Trinity United Church of Christ. The reason we have blue links is so that we don't have to overstuff articles with detail, particularly when using the summary style we have here. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wong again. Obama has not said anywhere that he disagrees with black liberation theology. And, "There is no suggestion that Obama attends Trinity because he agrees with this particular theology"??? The fact that he chose to join and remain and support TUCC suggests exactly that, though the sugggestion that he joined the church for its political utliy has also been made. Andyvphil (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- No Andy. It is you who is wrong here. Attendance of TUCC is not explicit evidence of supporting BLT. At best, it is implicit evidence. You would need an unequivocal statement from Obama that he supports Black Liberation Theology in order to justify saying so. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Choosing to join a church is prima facae evidence that you agree with its theology. The whose point of a church is to constitute a community of shared belief. Wright's was pastor for 36 years, and Obama knew him for seven years before choosing to join TUCC, so Wright's theology was clear and Obama knew what it was. Your statement that Obama "pointedly has said he does not... with this particular theology" is simply false. He has never distanced himself from Trinity's theology. The idea that his church's belief is in black liberation theology is a mere detail is, frankly, nuts. Andyvphil (talk) 14:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- "The whose point of a church is to constitute a community of shared belief." Community first please. Plenty of folks know that their family and community loved ones come first. Just cause you are joined at the hip, don't mean you have to agree/disagree. Even married folk's beliefs disagree sometimes. Of course, he love's his church community and his country. The churchs' foundations are not relevant to his bio. 172.166.175.101 (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Modocc (talk) 01:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Obama didn't inherit his "community", or Trinity. He chose both as an adult. He says his religious beliefs are important. What are they? Christian. OK, we say that. Denomination: UCC. OK, we say that. Trinity's theology is idiosyncratic in the UCC. If we are going to say what Obama's religion is, why are we stopping before the level at which it is defined? Andyvphil (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Your fallacy is the absurd assertion that because Obama choose a church, he must therefore have done so because of its specific theology. Plenty of other reasons for joining include praying to God, getting to know Jesus, building the community, friendships, etc. Only Obama need ever clarify what his personal religion actually entails and this article is about Obama and not doctrine. Modocc (talk) 01:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm making no assertion about why Obama joined TUCC. My guess is that he's still a religious skeptic and joined TUCC for political reasons, but that is neither here nor there. I am merely asserting that failing to accurately report the characteristics of the community he chose to join, which community has been significant and long term influence on his life and career, is a travesty of biography. You are trying to suppress a neutral, true, and properly cited observation that Trinity promotes this unusual belief system, and the assertion that that fact is a trivial detail is absurd. Andyvphil (talk) 04:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- "I'm making no assertion..." You most certainly have with your rationale for the edit, to justify its nontrivial nature. For Trinity's theology/practices see the church article, where space allows it to be accurately characterized. Modocc (talk) 09:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm making no assertion about why Obama joined TUCC. My guess is that he's still a religious skeptic and joined TUCC for political reasons, but that is neither here nor there. I am merely asserting that failing to accurately report the characteristics of the community he chose to join, which community has been significant and long term influence on his life and career, is a travesty of biography. You are trying to suppress a neutral, true, and properly cited observation that Trinity promotes this unusual belief system, and the assertion that that fact is a trivial detail is absurd. Andyvphil (talk) 04:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Your fallacy is the absurd assertion that because Obama choose a church, he must therefore have done so because of its specific theology. Plenty of other reasons for joining include praying to God, getting to know Jesus, building the community, friendships, etc. Only Obama need ever clarify what his personal religion actually entails and this article is about Obama and not doctrine. Modocc (talk) 01:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Obama didn't inherit his "community", or Trinity. He chose both as an adult. He says his religious beliefs are important. What are they? Christian. OK, we say that. Denomination: UCC. OK, we say that. Trinity's theology is idiosyncratic in the UCC. If we are going to say what Obama's religion is, why are we stopping before the level at which it is defined? Andyvphil (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- "The whose point of a church is to constitute a community of shared belief." Community first please. Plenty of folks know that their family and community loved ones come first. Just cause you are joined at the hip, don't mean you have to agree/disagree. Even married folk's beliefs disagree sometimes. Of course, he love's his church community and his country. The churchs' foundations are not relevant to his bio. 172.166.175.101 (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Modocc (talk) 01:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Choosing to join a church is prima facae evidence that you agree with its theology. The whose point of a church is to constitute a community of shared belief. Wright's was pastor for 36 years, and Obama knew him for seven years before choosing to join TUCC, so Wright's theology was clear and Obama knew what it was. Your statement that Obama "pointedly has said he does not... with this particular theology" is simply false. He has never distanced himself from Trinity's theology. The idea that his church's belief is in black liberation theology is a mere detail is, frankly, nuts. Andyvphil (talk) 14:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- No Andy. It is you who is wrong here. Attendance of TUCC is not explicit evidence of supporting BLT. At best, it is implicit evidence. You would need an unequivocal statement from Obama that he supports Black Liberation Theology in order to justify saying so. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wong again. Obama has not said anywhere that he disagrees with black liberation theology. And, "There is no suggestion that Obama attends Trinity because he agrees with this particular theology"??? The fact that he chose to join and remain and support TUCC suggests exactly that, though the sugggestion that he joined the church for its political utliy has also been made. Andyvphil (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- Andy is correct when he says that black liberation theology is a significant part of what Trinity is about - the church was founded in the '60s around that particular theology, and still continues to evoke it today. Black liberation theology is more about empowering blacks that feel put down by what they see as a ruling white class, and the church often evokes that theme - although not in an "anti-white" manner as some have been saying. All that said, Josiah is correct when he says that such details are not necessary in this particular article. There is no suggestion that Obama attends Trinity because he agrees with this particular theology (in fact, he pointedly has said he does not). Specifics about Trinity, such as what it is and how large its congregation is, belong in Trinity United Church of Christ. The reason we have blue links is so that we don't have to overstuff articles with detail, particularly when using the summary style we have here. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Andy, there are simply no reasons to go into specific details about Trinity when the church has its own article. A blue link is perfectly sufficient for the task. As I indicated before, Obama's attendance is not an unequivocal pointer to his personal beliefs. Adding these details creates what may be a false implication about those beliefs. Let people follow the blue link and draw their own conclusions instead of imposing your own conclusions on this BLP. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- Before this goes farther, is there a page on the church? If there is a page on the church, then include a link to the church and leave the description/ideas of that church to the related article. The information is not directly about Obama, but the church he attended. This information lends nothing to the article, but adds to the controversy. Brothejr (talk) 15:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes - Trinity United Church of Christ. That is already linked in the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Leave it as a link to TUCC without the details of what the church is.. This article isn't about TUCC, it's about Barack Obama. We don't include the "controversial" beliefs of the Catholic Church in the bios of Catholics, I don't see how this would be any different. --130.76.32.182 (talk) 17:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes - Trinity United Church of Christ. That is already linked in the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Before this goes farther, is there a page on the church? If there is a page on the church, then include a link to the church and leave the description/ideas of that church to the related article. The information is not directly about Obama, but the church he attended. This information lends nothing to the article, but adds to the controversy. Brothejr (talk) 15:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Per this discussion and Bobblehead's edit summary here, I have removed excessive detailing of TUCC from the Barack Obama#Personal life section of this article. --HailFire (talk) 16:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Head of State
it should be noted that his favorite film is Head of State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.36.77 (talk • contribs) 21:00, April 30, 2008
- Why? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I suppose it could be worse. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- I was asking "why should it be noted?" rather than "why is it his favorite film?" I haven't seen Head of State, and have no opinion on it (although Chris Rock is generally hilarious). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- I suppose it could be worse. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Images
Should the article use images from his senate photo gallery at http://obama.senate.gov/photo/ ?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
- One problem we've had with using images from his senate photo gallery is that even though they are on a .gov website the images were not actually taken by an employee of the federal government, so are copyrighted. We'd have to get clarification on the copyright status of those images before we can call them PD and use them. --Bobblehead 16:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
improving readability
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One section is so hard to read that I added titles. There should be no opposition unless one purposely wants to make it less readable or wants to hide details such as his religion or his house. I can't believe nobody has thought of this! Watchingobama (talk) 15:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
hiding RezkoRemoval of the subsections has the effect of hiding Rezko. That makes an encyclopedia bad because it hides information. Rezko helps Obama because Obama returned all of the money and regretted the land deal; it's not like Rev. Wright controversy where Obama kept supporting the man for 20 years and only now doesn't support him. With Rezko, Obama acted swiftly to correct the mistake. Why hide this and not hide Rev. Wright? This is unfair treatment of Obama. Watchingobama (talk) 20:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
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Malia Obama
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I support Malia as a separate article. Many oppose. A common opinion is "More reasonably covered in the article about her father. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)" and redirect/put info in Barack Obama-personal life. So I am putting Malia information in. If you delete it, you should go to AFD and support Malia Obama article. If you oppose the Malia article, then leave the stuff in this article. You can't be for redirect AND for getting rid of sourced information, otherwise that's censorship and reason to delete other sourced info in this article. Thank you. Watchingobama (talk) 21:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
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how is this a featured article?
how is this a featured article? i see it contains a section that is being questioned for its neutrality. is this enough to revoke featured status?
im not trying to be partisan here, i just wish to be fair to the other candidates who's articles are not featured but have no warning labels.
(70.181.148.148 (talk) 21:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC))
- Hmm, looks like we just never removed the tag after the discussions over Wright ended. I don't see any discussions currently on the page about NPOV issues with the Presidential campaign section so I've gone ahead and removed it. --Bobblehead 22:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
- ^ Barman, Ari (May 1, 2008). "Obama Under the Weather". The Nation. Retrieved 2008-05-05.
{{cite web}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - Curry, Tom (April 18, 2008). "Ex-radical Ayers in eye of campaign storm". MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-05-05.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - "Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal. January 31 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "From The Editor". and "Key Votes Used To Calculate The Ratings". - "Obama Interview" (transcript). WJLA-TV. Politico. February 12 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "Politico's Harris and VandeHei Misrepresented Harris' Own Interview with Obama". Media Matters for America. March 19 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.{{cite web}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - "Senator Barack H. Obama Jr. (IL)". Project Vote Smart. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
- "2007 Congressional Voting Record Inside" (PDF). ADA Today. Americans for Democratic Action. 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite web}}: Unknown parameter|month=ignored (help) - "Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal. January 31 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "From The Editor". and "Key Votes Used To Calculate The Ratings". - "Senator Barack H. Obama Jr. (IL)". Project Vote Smart. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
- "2007 Congressional Voting Record Inside" (PDF). ADA Today. Americans for Democratic Action. 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite web}}: Unknown parameter|month=ignored (help) - "Obama Interview" (transcript). WJLA-TV. Politico. February 12 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "Politico's Harris and VandeHei Misrepresented Harris' Own Interview with Obama". Media Matters for America. March 19 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.{{cite web}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - "Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal. January 31 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "From The Editor". and "Key Votes Used To Calculate The Ratings". - "Obama Interview" (transcript). WJLA-TV. Politico. February 12 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "Politico's Harris and VandeHei Misrepresented Harris' Own Interview with Obama". Media Matters for America. March 19 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.{{cite web}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - "Senator Barack H. Obama Jr. (IL)". Project Vote Smart. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
- "2007 Congressional Voting Record Inside" (PDF). ADA Today. Americans for Democratic Action. 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite web}}: Unknown parameter|month=ignored (help) - "Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal. January 31 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "From The Editor". and "Key Votes Used To Calculate The Ratings". - "Senator Barack H. Obama Jr. (IL)". Project Vote Smart. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
- "2007 Congressional Voting Record Inside" (PDF). ADA Today. Americans for Democratic Action. 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite web}}: Unknown parameter|month=ignored (help) - "Obama Interview" (transcript). WJLA-TV. Politico. February 12 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) See also: "Politico's Harris and VandeHei Misrepresented Harris' Own Interview with Obama". Media Matters for America. March 19 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.{{cite web}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - "Senator Barack H. Obama Jr. (IL)". Project Vote Smart. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
- "2007 Congressional Voting Record Inside" (PDF). ADA Today. Americans for Democratic Action. 2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27.
{{cite web}}: Unknown parameter|month=ignored (help) - Keogh, Diana (2007-10-01). "Chicago's Trinity UCC prepares to welcome new pastor for new generation". United Church News. United Church of Christ. Retrieved 2008-04-30.
- Allen, Mike (March 16 2008). "Obama's Church Accuses Media of Character Assassination". Politico. Retrieved 2008-03-16.
{{cite news}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - Talev, Margaret (2008-03-20). "Obama's church pushes controversial doctrines". McClatchy Newspapers. Retrieved 2008-03-31.
- Wright, Jeremiah (2007-03-01). "Talking Points". Trinity United Church of Christ website. Retrieved 2008-03-31.
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