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| :BTW, in this article there need to be a mention of, and a link to, the entry for the town of Lachin. Does anyone know if the Lachin rayon was given that name because of the name of the town of Lachin, or was the settlement renamed Lachin because that was what the rayon was named? And what does the word "Lachin" mean? | :BTW, in this article there need to be a mention of, and a link to, the entry for the town of Lachin. Does anyone know if the Lachin rayon was given that name because of the name of the town of Lachin, or was the settlement renamed Lachin because that was what the rayon was named? And what does the word "Lachin" mean? | ||
| :: Once again, Karapetyan is not third party source and should be removed. And Meowy, if you have any maps that cannot be found in modern publication, maybe you could upload scans so that we could check your claims? As for the meaning of the name of the city, Lachin means hawk in Azerbaijani. ] (]) 04:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC) | :: Once again, Karapetyan is not third party source and should be removed. And Meowy, if you have any maps that cannot be found in modern publication, maybe you could upload scans so that we could check your claims? As for the meaning of the name of the city, Lachin means hawk in Azerbaijani. ] (]) 04:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC) | ||
| ::Means ''peregrine falcon'' in Turkish. ] 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC) | |||
| Meowy, according to Azeri authors reflecting on historical truth, entire present-day Armenia is essentially ethnically cleansed and Armenian settled land of Azeris. The fact is also confirmed by Bournoutian by the way. I would guess that you will claim such opinion as not neutral. Well, then I don't see how the reference of Karapetyan can at all qualify on this page. Please, provide neutral authors for future reference. Thanks. ] (]) 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC) | Meowy, according to Azeri authors reflecting on historical truth, entire present-day Armenia is essentially ethnically cleansed and Armenian settled land of Azeris. The fact is also confirmed by Bournoutian by the way. I would guess that you will claim such opinion as not neutral. Well, then I don't see how the reference of Karapetyan can at all qualify on this page. Please, provide neutral authors for future reference. Thanks. ] (]) 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :As explained in another entry, I will not wasting time responding to this sort of childish stuff. The cited book is a completely acceptable source. An "Azeri author" is not capable of reflecting on "historical truth" - if he/she were, the author would pretty quickly be languishing in an Azerbaijani prison. An Azeri author's "historical truth" might as well be that all Armenians actually came from outer space sometime in the 19th century, exterminating millions of good, honest, and always completely peacefull Azeri Turks who had been living everywhere in the Caucasus since time immemorial - and anything anyone produces contrarary to that is all down to Photoshop, money, and Armenian plots. ] 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC) | |||
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Category
In the spirit of WP:NPOV, we should include both categories. If you see Tiraspol for example, you will notice that in addition to having Category:Transnistria, it also has Category:Cities in Moldova. De facto (in reality), Tiraspol is not part of Moldova. However, de jure (according to international recognition), it is. Same applies for Lachin/Berdzor. Khoikhoi 11:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah I agree with that. ROOB323 11:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- Lachin is part of Nagorno-Karabakh neither de facto nor de jure, no more than Iraq is part of the United States. --Golbez 12:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Map
Does anybody have any good and clear map for the Lachin town. I thought it would be good idea to have a map showing where Lachin is located at. ROOB323 04:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Status of Lachin. de facto part of the NKR de jure part of Azerbaijan
I have had some concerns expressed over this] edit. Note that we have split the Nagorno-Karabakh article so when we talk about land that is de facto part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic we should include the NKR & Armenia's position at the negiotiations. This position has been that Azerbaijan can get back 5 out of the 7 former Rayons but Nagorno-Karabakh keeps the Lachin (Kashatagh) and the Kelbajar (Karvajar) rayons. Note also that the NKR includes census data from the Kashtagh province which includes the town of Lachin (Berdzor). Hence we need to express that Lachin is de facto part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 23:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- Lachin is not even de facto part of the NKR, as they have not claimed it. At most, it is occupied territory, just like Iraq is of the United States, and no one has seriously said that Iraq is part of the United States. The negotiations may thus far require that NK/Armenia keep Lachin, but at present they have made no official claim or annexation of the land. The borders of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, as laid out by the breakaway government, specifically include only the 5 districts plus Shahumian. Lachin is considered by all parties to be presently part of Azerbaijan. That they want that status changed in the future does not change its present status. --Golbez (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- I was asked to add the Armenian language name to the article, but I see that Golbez removed it back in February. What do Golbez and others think about this? And how did this anon "contribution" went unnoticed?VartanM (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- You're welcome to fix the anon; I cannot be everywhere at every moment. As for the Armenian name, note that it basically said it was in the "rayon of Kashatagh", which is false. The name of the rayon is Lachin; if you want to say "also known by the local population as Kashatagh" that's fine, but the rayons are an official division of Azerbaijan that cannot be changed by another population. The city is a different matter; cities can and do easily be renamed. But the divisions of Azerbaijan are handled on the national level, and the land has not been annexed by Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh. If it was, you could say "in the NK division of Kashatagh" but that's not the case. The only second-level political entity that Lachin exists in is the (Armenian-occupied/controlled) Azeri rayon of Lachin. You can mention the local name for it if you like, but the primary political divisions of Azerbaijan are dictated by Baku and no one else.
- Long story short - it would be odd to have an occupied/foreign controlled area change its designation in the national scheme of Azerbaijan, with Azerbaijan having no input whatsoever. Which is why I think we say on the Stepanakert that it is officially Khankendi in the Azeri subdivisions. It's not "the Azeri sahar of Stepanakert", that would again be false. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- Have a look at the map at the official site of the Nagorno-Karabakh republic. I can't read Armenian but it is clear that they are not distinguishing (hence claiming) all the territory under their control as well as certain parts that are currently under control of Azerbaijan. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 23:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
- That's a map showing the official Line of Control; note it includes far more than Lachin and Kalbajar. Perhaps this is how they would like the NKR to eventually be, but this is not how the NKR is now. The NKR has not officially claimed nor annexed land beyond its original districts that I know of; you'll need more than a map to source anything else. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- What does it matter if "NKR" includes Lachin in its borders or not? Such a state does not exist de-jure, has no recognition whatsoever, and you cannot find it on any world map. The only legal owner of the region is Azerbaijan, and we should use only the Azerbaijani divisions. Note that international community considers Lachin and other rayons controlled by separatists the occupied territories. Grandmaster (talk) 08:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- Not helpful, GM. It's not like we haven't heard that argument over and over again, but I think the people actually in Lachin would disagree that they do not exist. Let's talk about the actual subject of discussion rather than falling back on your old tired routine? --Golbez (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- What does it matter if "NKR" includes Lachin in its borders or not? Such a state does not exist de-jure, has no recognition whatsoever, and you cannot find it on any world map. The only legal owner of the region is Azerbaijan, and we should use only the Azerbaijani divisions. Note that international community considers Lachin and other rayons controlled by separatists the occupied territories. Grandmaster (talk) 08:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- That's a map showing the official Line of Control; note it includes far more than Lachin and Kalbajar. Perhaps this is how they would like the NKR to eventually be, but this is not how the NKR is now. The NKR has not officially claimed nor annexed land beyond its original districts that I know of; you'll need more than a map to source anything else. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- The current Lachin is a town in Azerbaijan is unacceptable. We are not writing fantasypedia. I have nothing against addition of the information that its de-jure part of Azerbaijan, but it can not be in the lead as it is now. The lead should reflect current status of the town and not be misleading. VartanM (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- But... it is in Azerbaijan. It's in land occupied/controlled by Armenia/NKR, but it is claimed nor annexed by neither; it is part of Azerbaijan, universally acknowledged, just as Basra was always part of Iraq and Paris was part of France in the early 1940s. If you want it changed, you will have to show me a source specifically saying the political (not physical) ownership of Lachin has changed. Anything less is original research. --Golbez (talk) 22:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, de-jure non-existence does not mean that someone or something does not exist in real life, it means that he/it does not exist as a legal person/entity. And NKR does not exist in legal terms, it has no recognition, no membership in any organizations, and legitimacy of its government is rejected by the international community. I think it is a valid argument which we should bear in mind when discussing "NKR". Grandmaster (talk) 09:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
- If only what you said had any bearing whatsoever on the discussion thread we're in. --Golbez (talk) 19:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
- Azerbaijani name goes first, as Azerbaijani is the official language in Azerbaijan and Lachin is part of it. That's the way it is done in any other articles about regions and towns. Grandmaster (talk) 06:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- Nope. In fact, why include the Azerbaijani name at all? It's not any different so it's irrelevant.-- Ευπάτωρ 15:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- Azerbaijani name goes first, as Azerbaijani is the official language in Azerbaijan and Lachin is part of it. That's the way it is done in any other articles about regions and towns. Grandmaster (talk) 06:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- If only what you said had any bearing whatsoever on the discussion thread we're in. --Golbez (talk) 19:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, de-jure non-existence does not mean that someone or something does not exist in real life, it means that he/it does not exist as a legal person/entity. And NKR does not exist in legal terms, it has no recognition, no membership in any organizations, and legitimacy of its government is rejected by the international community. I think it is a valid argument which we should bear in mind when discussing "NKR". Grandmaster (talk) 09:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
- But... it is in Azerbaijan. It's in land occupied/controlled by Armenia/NKR, but it is claimed nor annexed by neither; it is part of Azerbaijan, universally acknowledged, just as Basra was always part of Iraq and Paris was part of France in the early 1940s. If you want it changed, you will have to show me a source specifically saying the political (not physical) ownership of Lachin has changed. Anything less is original research. --Golbez (talk) 22:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
It is Azerbaijani spelling of the region that matters. Since it is also a name of the region with Azerbaijani origin, not Armenian (like Berdzor), it matters even more. Lachin and Laçın are different and the latter should come first according to common sense. In the opposite Armenian spelling should not be there, since the Armenian side hardly ever uses this name to call/mean this region. --Aynabend (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
- I'm gonna have to agree with that; Lachin is not quite the same as Stepanakert, and it's not claimed or annexed by anyone but Azerbaijan so that name should go first. That there is a substantial Armenian population there is the reason why we then also include Armenian. --Golbez (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I fixed the line that said Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh renamed the region. Armenia cannot rename the territory of the neighboring state, neither can unrecognized local authorities. So I used more neutral wording. Grandmaster (talk) 14:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- I deleted some obviously uncorrect unsourced "info" on currect Azerbaijani and Kurdish popualetion added by an IP. Also some expanding and checking of the historical part is needed. The Kurdishmedia is not a reliable source for this controversional topic.Andranikpasha (talk) 15:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The same POV here, stating that Lachin, which does not officially belong to either Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, is under control of "Nagorno-Karabakh" is not neutral. Since in either case, those are Armenian forces occupying the district, it's better to just state so, that it's under control of Armenian forces. Atabek (talk) 13:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC) It does not officially belong to either Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, it is an official part and corridor of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. Andranikpasha (talk) 18:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
- What?? Lachin is a rayon of Azerbaijan occupied by Armenian forces as a corridor to Karabakh? Which source says that it's "official part of NKR", please, substantiate your POV with reference or otherwise, remove your original research. Atabek (talk) 05:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I added that "NKR" is not internationally recognized, this fact is worth mentioning, since the status of NK has 2 aspects: de facto and de jure. Mentioning one entails mentioning the other. Grandmaster (talk) 10:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the two editors who have removed Grandmaster's addition. It is unfortunate that some editors whose main aim here is to
promotereproduce Azeri propaganda seem to want Misplaced Pages articles to be mirror-like reflections of Azerbaijan press releases, whose writers are obliged to use such phrases. There is no need for the Azeri stock phrase "not internationally recognised" to always appear whenever the words Nagorno Karabakh Republic are mentioned. Meowy 16:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)- First, mind WP:AGF. Accusing other editors of "promoting Azeri propaganda" is not acceptable, comment on content, and not the contributor. Second, the IP is banned User:Azad chai, who has been stalking me for quite some time. Check his contribs, they are nothing but vandalism and edit warring. And third, what's wrong with adding factually accurate info about so called "NKR" having no international recognition? Like it or not, it is a fact that reader needs to be aware of without having to check the main article. Grandmaster (talk) 18:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- Would you prefer "reproduce" to "promote"? As for following who is banned and who is not and who is alleged to be such and such a person's sockpuppet, I'm happy to say such wikkifaggotry doesn't interest me, and I hope I look at content and judge it based on its quality rather than judge it based on who wrote it. Meowy 02:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't prefer any personal comments. Keep them to yourself, you already have a number of incivility blocks, so you should be aware of consequences of such comments. As for banned users, enforcement of wiki policies should be everyone's concern. Banned users are not allowed to contribute, and especially engage in edit warring and harassment. Grandmaster (talk) 05:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Would you prefer "reproduce" to "promote"? As for following who is banned and who is not and who is alleged to be such and such a person's sockpuppet, I'm happy to say such wikkifaggotry doesn't interest me, and I hope I look at content and judge it based on its quality rather than judge it based on who wrote it. Meowy 02:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- First, mind WP:AGF. Accusing other editors of "promoting Azeri propaganda" is not acceptable, comment on content, and not the contributor. Second, the IP is banned User:Azad chai, who has been stalking me for quite some time. Check his contribs, they are nothing but vandalism and edit warring. And third, what's wrong with adding factually accurate info about so called "NKR" having no international recognition? Like it or not, it is a fact that reader needs to be aware of without having to check the main article. Grandmaster (talk) 18:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the two editors who have removed Grandmaster's addition. It is unfortunate that some editors whose main aim here is to
Well, since there is preference to "de-facto independent" instead of "unrecognized", I added a bit more clarification on "de jure" being part of Azerbaijan. Atabek (talk) 18:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- The article already states, clearly and succinctly, in the very first sentence, that Lachin "is a town in Azerbaijan". Meowy 02:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Banned user Azad chai deleted Azeri name, as usual, which I restored. Grandmaster (talk) 08:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
- Again, Karapetyan is not a reliable source. Please cite third party sources. Grandmaster (talk) 05:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Please point to concrete examples in Karapetyan's book so we may reconsider his reliability as a source. An interview is simply an interview; just because he expresses a certain viewpoint does not mean automatically mean that he is unreliable. Let's be logical here.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 00:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- See my response here and please cite third party sources. Karapetyan is a person, who denies the right of Azerbaijani people to live in Lachin. How could such a person be a reliable source? A quote from de Waal's book, check the words of Karapetyan:
- What claims does history have on the present? In what sense can Kelbajar be called "Armenian," when no Armenian had lived there for almost a hundred years? I said that I could not accept that Kelbajar was "liberated" territory, when all of its fifty thousand or so Azerbaijani or Kurdish inhabitants had been expelled. Surely, I argued, these people had the right to live in the homes in which they were born. But for Samvel, the past eclipsed the present: those people were "Turks" and interlopers. When he used to travel on buses in Azerbaijan, he would always end up losing his seat: "Every Turk or Azerbaijani asks you for a little land and says, 'Just give me a little land to live in!' But in a few years you end up with a tiny piece of land and he gets the lot".
- Since when racist authors like Karapetyan are considered reliable here? If what he says about the ancient name is true, you should have no problem finding a third party source saying the same. There are many reputable international scholars who worked in this field, so it should not be problem, if such a name indeed existed and is not Karapetyan's invention. Grandmaster (talk) 09:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I second. For controversial issues we should use neutral sources.--Dacy69 (talk) 20:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
There is bad-faith at work in Grandmaster's removal of clearly factually-correct information. One need only look at any 19th century map to see that the old name of Lachin was Ardalar (or spellings similar to Ardalar: for example it is spelt "Abdalyar" on Lynch's 1901 "Map of Armenia and Adjacent Countries". Did Grandmaster not bother to check such maps? Meowy 20:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, in this article there need to be a mention of, and a link to, the entry for the town of Lachin. Does anyone know if the Lachin rayon was given that name because of the name of the town of Lachin, or was the settlement renamed Lachin because that was what the rayon was named? And what does the word "Lachin" mean?
- Once again, Karapetyan is not third party source and should be removed. And Meowy, if you have any maps that cannot be found in modern publication, maybe you could upload scans so that we could check your claims? As for the meaning of the name of the city, Lachin means hawk in Azerbaijani. Grandmaster (talk) 04:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Means peregrine falcon in Turkish. Meowy 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Meowy, according to Azeri authors reflecting on historical truth, entire present-day Armenia is essentially ethnically cleansed and Armenian settled land of Azeris. The fact is also confirmed by Bournoutian by the way. I would guess that you will claim such opinion as not neutral. Well, then I don't see how the reference of Karapetyan can at all qualify on this page. Please, provide neutral authors for future reference. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- As explained in another entry, I will not wasting time responding to this sort of childish stuff. The cited book is a completely acceptable source. An "Azeri author" is not capable of reflecting on "historical truth" - if he/she were, the author would pretty quickly be languishing in an Azerbaijani prison. An Azeri author's "historical truth" might as well be that all Armenians actually came from outer space sometime in the 19th century, exterminating millions of good, honest, and always completely peacefull Azeri Turks who had been living everywhere in the Caucasus since time immemorial - and anything anyone produces contrarary to that is all down to Photoshop, money, and Armenian plots. Meowy 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)