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PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE DISCUSSION WITHOUT AUTHORITY -THIS IS BEING REPORTED TO AN ADMINISTRATOR AS VANDALISMKingsleyMiller (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Mediation Cabal
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Request details

The attachment theory page includes a list of tenets of attachment theory without specifying where they have come from.

Who are the involved parties?

User:KingsleyMiller

User:Jean Mercer

I have added Jean Mercer and left Fainites although now that I have been able to verify the authorship of the list my dispute is with Jean Mercer KingsleyMiller (talk) 11:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)KingsleyMiller (talk) 11:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

barley

What's going on?

The other side is evasive but I think they are using an early version of this theory by John Bowlby which is now discredited.

What would you like to change about that?

I should like the other side to clarify the source for this list. For example it includes 'monotropy' which has been abandoned.

Are they representing this earlier version of Bowlby's work as the true version?

Mediator notes

Why don't you both review your sources? Look at the dates. the most recent is usually going to be the most accurate.

Lunakeet 13:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Would it be possible to start by trying to agree the ambit of mediation please Luna as there are three running between the three same editors on roughly the same ground involving the same set of articles. Fainites 17:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That (review)would ordinarily be reasonable, Lunakeet, but in this case part of the problem is interpretation of the sources, and another is quality of the secondary sources in use.Jean Mercer (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest the following to encompass all three referrals:

There may of course not be definitive answers to any of these but there are plenty of notable sources around. Fainites 21:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Mediator; Who are you? Are you Luna Santin the administrator?KingsleyMiller (talk) 09:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

This case appears to encompass the same issues as Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-25 Michael Rutter and Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-26 John Bowlby. If there are no objections I will close the other two cases and leave notes referring to this case. --Cabal of one (talk) 07:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Fine by me. Fainites 08:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Same here. Jean Mercer (talk) 22:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Here is what Jean Mercer says about Bowlby on his Wik page. There is no mention of 'monotropy'. So where has it come from?

Bowlby's Legacy

   Main article: Attachment theory

Although not without its critics, attachment theory has been described as the dominant approach to understanding early social development and to have given rise to a great surge of empirical research into the formation of childrens close relationships. As it is presently formulated and used for research purposes, Bowlby's attachment theory stresses the following important tenets: 1) children between 6 and about 30 months are very likely to form emotional attachments to familiar caregivers, especially if the adults are sensitive and responsive to child communications. 2) The emotional attachments of young children are shown behaviorally in their preferences for particular familiar people, their tendency to seek proximity to those people, especially in times of distress, and their ability to use the familiar adults as a secure base from which to explore the environment. 3) The formation of emotional attachments contributes to the foundation of later emotional and personality development, and the type of behavior toward familiar adults shown by toddlers has some continuity with the social behaviors they will show later in life. 4) Events that interfere with attachment, such as abrupt separation of the toddler from familiar people or the significant inability of carers to be sensitive, responsive or consistent in their interactions, have short-term and possible long-term negative impacts on the child's emotional and cognitive life.

(I assume the above is KingsleyMiller)

• an editor has just alerted me to this. i note that although Jean Mercer is quoted as the author of a disputed passage she is not listed as an involved party. It also seems to be a complaint implying bad faith rather than a request for mediation. Fainites 21:02, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Not bad faith. Bad editing.

The passage above is taken from the page on John Bowlby.

When you clarify where your source lies for the disputed list we can try and contact them as well.

(The point that is being made is that one of the previously alleged sources does not claim authorship for the reference to monotropy on another page. So where did you get this table from?)KingsleyMiller (talk) 08:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer1

(This form of mediation was suggested by a third party - In this case my dispute is with you as the author of the list/table - Please can you put your responses here so other people may contribute)

Jean Mercer if the list of 'tenets of the attachment theory' is yours then you need to reference the title on the page to make it clear that you have made this title.

Where did you get it from?

Which book?

I would like to see a copy in the library if possible.

Many thanks

KingsleyMiller (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE DISCUSSION WITHOUT AUTHORITY -THIS IS BEING REPORTED TO AN ADMINISTRATOR AS VANDALISMKingsleyMiller (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer's response

I'm not sure what format to use here, so I will do this. No doubt someone will tell me if it's wrong. I referenced my book which discusses all the items in that list. If it would be preferable to have another source for each of them, I can easily use the sources that i used in writing the book. The list is not a direct quotation from the book, nor could I supply a single page number relevant to the whole list.

A particular concern of KM's seems to be about monotropy. I know he was much put about some time ago when I edited a statement about monotropy to indicate that it could mean not just one, but a small number of people. I made this change in part because of a statement in Bowlby's 1958"nature of the child's tie" paper, in which he proposes to use the term monotropy to mean "the tendency for instinctual responses to be directed toward a particular individual or GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS and not promiscuously towards many" (p. 370). The use of the monotropy concept in the strict ethological "imprinting" sense has certainly been minimized, as KM points out, but the idea of attachment to a few individuals is still very much with us. Two examples would be the criteria listed for Reactive Attachment Disorder in DSM, where ready social engagement with strangers is viewed as pathological, or the "day care wars" of the last century (cf. Belsky), where there was concern about young children having more than a few caregivers.

I believe it is impossible to cite one (or even a few) documents setting out the tenets of attachment theory as it exists today. No such revised theory has been formulated in an explicit way, although there may be an implicit theory indicated by stress on particular issues. We can only work with the theory as it was put forward by Bowlby. This can be followed up with suggestions or arguments that have occurred after the formulation of the theory, but those are not part of the theory in the usual sense of the words. Perhaps we could agree on a date at which attachment theory of the Bowlby type was completed. I would propose the date of the last volume of the trilogy.

I don't understand whether Kip is suggesting that i donate a copy of my book to his library. Jean Mercer (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Just looking further at KM's concerns above: the Bowlby page is not "about attachment therapy", so when I commented on the tenets of the theory I referred to those which are STRESSED, not to all of them. The page is biographical and would presumably be read for different purposes than those which would motivate someone to read about attachment therapy itself. To omit monotropy from this short list of stressed ideas does not mean that monotropy does not appear on a more complete list. If KM would like to edit this passage to say that these are the tenets of greatest interest to most people, but not the only ones, there is nothing to stop him from doing that.Jean Mercer (talk) 16:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer2

Thank you for this.

So, the list is basically made up of your own beliefs with no verification needed because they are your own ideas. Is that correct?

Would I be correct in assuming also that although the page is called 'Attachment Theory' a more accurate description, in your opinion, would be 'Bowlby's Attachment Theory'?

KingsleyMiller (talk) 16:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Your first question is not at an appropriate level of discourse.

When I wrote the lead part of the attachment theory article, I noted that although there have been various attachment theories, the term is generally taken to mean Bowlby's attachment theory, and I maintain this view. Ordinarily, when you read this term, you can assume it doesn't mean S. Freud, it doesn't mean Gewirtz, etc. I think it may be true that there have been some implicit post-Bowlby changes. Perhaps you would like to find a term for the post-Bowlby theory and describe its tenets, including recent scholarship on the topic? I'm working on a paper on this topic myself, so I certainly can't bring in my own OR. Jean Mercer (talk) 17:17, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer3

Let me put it like this. One definition of 'tenet' is doctrine. You have made a list about 'attachment theory' which states 'Tenets of the Attachment Theory'. As a student reading the page for the first time I would expect the list to be a definitive account. Whose 'Tenets' are they? You should give the list an appropriate title. For example, is it Bowlby's tenets? Or is it Jean Mercer's 'Tenet's of the Attachment Theory' Can you think of an accurate title?

KingsleyMiller (talk) 17:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I note you have started to reference the 'tenets' for the list which is extremely helpful. Can you please make sure you also give the list an accurate title - This is also very important so that people know who made the list in the first place.

(Please note From your statement above I guess you would not say that Bowlby is the 'originator of the attachment theory' and I have also added that quote to the relevant discussion. I think it will help both discussions).

PS Somebody has tried to erase this discussion. I have reported it as vandalism and made a copy of the relevant passages.KingsleyMiller (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

KingsleyMiller (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE DISCUSSION WITHOUT AUTHORITY -THIS IS BEING REPORTED TO AN ADMINISTRATOR AS VANDALISM18:27, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you give it a title? And why don't you check all the tenets and make sure all are there, and none are there that should not be? Or, since you like Rutter's 1995 paper, why not see if his headings would work? You really can't expect me to write it the way you want it, on command.

I trust that I'm not the person you're admonishing not to remove things. I don't think I've ever removed anything, unless i had written it myself. Jean Mercer (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

(Jean Mercer - Please see the PS - Many apologies for any confusion)

By the way, if anyone wants to know who put the list together, they just have to look at the article's history, right? Once again, there is no page in anything I've ever published where this list of tenets appears in this form. But if you read through my book "Understanding Attachment" you'd find all of them. Jean Mercer (talk) 18:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer4

Sorry but I don't agree with the list. 'Tenets' means 'tenets' and if you cannot define them you really should not put up such a list that is not accurate.

People like Fainties have read your list and basically destroyed people who disagree with your list on Misplaced Pages!

It is up to you to put it right.

(I am the author of a booklet on an aspect of the theory of 'maternal deprivation which Professor Sir Michael Rutter called an 'interesting and informative guide'. I have the e-mail on the wall if ever you would like to see it?)

What are you going to call your list?

KingsleyMiller (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't tempt me to tell you what I'm calling it in my head!

I stand by the list. You haven't given a plausible argument against the accuracy of any of the points made. It's called "tenets" and I consider that to be an appropriate title. If you'd like a different title, suggest one-- there's no reason this can't be discussed, but there are many reasons why bullying won't work.

Once again, I propose a definition of the type of attachment theory we're talking about here. You must know that Rutter's 1995 remarks were not the last word on this, nor were they the formulation of a revamped theory. I stated in the article that the theory formulated by Bowlby was the one being discussed. If you have another theory you want to put forward, that would be a worthy contribution, but you must say what you're talking about.

Perhaps you can tell me who was destroyed and in what manner this occurred? But not today-- I have other things to do, and it would not be a bad thing for you to reflect on some of the issues I've stated here.Jean Mercer (talk) 19:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but if you are saying these tenets refer to Bowlby you should say so.

Jean Mercer5

Jean, you have written this on the discussion page on Bowlby.

Of course I think Bowlby's the originator of the theory associated with his name, the one whose tenets are on that list. There are other attachment theories too, as I mentioned, and naturally he's not their originator. When most people say attachment theory, they mean Bowlby's theory, as I noted in the article. Wouldn't you be surprised if someone spoke of attachment theory and it turned out they were talking about Gewirtz or Ian Suttie? Jean Mercer (talk) 23:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

If this is the case why have you not made it clear that the 'Attachment theory' page refers to Bowlby's attachment theory and that the list of tenets are his 'tenets' of the attachment theory? Surely this would clear up any confusion?

KingsleyMiller (talk) 17:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

All - As a result of the CABAL MEDIATION TAG Jean Mercer has now referenced the list of 'Tenets of the Attachment Theory' and removed her own citations. Therefore the SELF-PUBLISHING TAG has been removed and instead I have replaced it with TAGS disputing the title of list of the 'Tenets of the Attachment Theory' as well as the page as a whole. Many thanks KingsleyMiller (talk) 18:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

No. I removed the self publish tag KM because you had misunderstood what self publish meant. JeanMercer has not removed her citation. The tenets could be obtained from any decent work on attachment theory - including hers. She has added Bowlbys primary sources. As attachment theory as currently understood originates with Bowlby there is no need to change the title. The lead makes it clear that attachment theory originates with Bowlby. If, however, you wished to add a history section of earlier theories that relate to attachment, nobody is stopping you - provided its in accordance with policies of course. However = I think someone has already pointed out that bullying, shouting and demanding that other people write things to your command is unlikely to be a winning formula. Fainites 19:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not leave the tags where they were if the contents were not self-publishing? KingsleyMiller (talk) 09:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious? Self publishing is inappropriate editing. It was plain from your talkpage post that you had misunderstood what it meant. You also made several plainly untrue statements about references and tags being removed. For the nth time Kingsley - mediation is supposed to be a co-operative process. It requires agreement and good faith. Why would anyone agree to mediate with someone who's edits frequently consist of personal attacks, a stream of false allegations, accusations of bad faith and implications of some kind of underlying conspiracy?Fainites 21:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, of course I meant Jean Mercer's references not the 'tags'. The tags should be removed once the offending self publishing citations were also removed. KingsleyMiller (talk) 23:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercers refs are not self-publishing, they have not been removed, the tag was removed by me because you had plainly misunderstood what 'self-publishing' meant. Fainites 21:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who reads, marks, learns, and inwardly digests the attachment theory article will see that it is Bowlby's theory that is being discussed. It says so. Jean Mercer (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer6 - NEED FOR TAGS

Jean Mercer,

You have written the following;

Anyone who reads, marks, learns, and inwardly digests the attachment theory article will see that it is Bowlby's theory that is being discussed. It says so. Jean Mercer (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me but the title of the page does not say this at all. This is an encyclopedia. People want to read about the attachment theory not your opinion of Bowlby's version.

Unless you change the title of the page to reflect the contents in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy I shall take this matter to the next stage of dispute resolution.

KingsleyMiller (talk) 09:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

You haven't even done this stage yet Kingsley. No mediation has started. Fainites 21:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I await developments with bated breath and baited hook. Jean Mercer (talk) 23:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer,

If you look at the page about Rutter you will see that despite my many reqests Fainities still has not told me what his objections to the page maybe. I would save your breath.KingsleyMiller (talk) 11:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Jean Mercer - No need for further discussion

I do not think there is any need for further discussion.

It all boils down to this, you are happy with the title of the page 'Attachment theory' and the title of the list 'Tenets of The Attachment Theory'. In particular you see nothing wrong with the reference to 'monotropy'.

I shall refer the next stage to an administrator.

Thank you for your cooperation.

KingsleyMiller (talk) 23:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Response

• Hey! Who am supposed to have destroyed? Its news to me. I hadn't realised I was so powerful. And what has the list of tenets got to do with it? I think you need to realise Kingsley that there is no body of full time authors of article who are responsible for articles who are in a postition to be bullyed by you into writing things. Actually until quite recently I had relatively little to do with either the Attachment theory or John Bowlby page. A quick flick through the history would have shown you who wrote the tenets, and anyway - JeanMercer made it very clear to you. Your implication of some kind of cover up or misrepresentation is presumably another implied bad faith allegation that will go the way of all the others you make and then never substantiate.
• Also - in my disputes with you I have set out great chunks of 'original Bowlby' and other notable sources so I have not got my ideas or views from JeanMercers list. Many of your beliefs appear to derive from website material rather than notable sources - hence your difficulties. If we take monotropy - you keep stating that it is not a feature of attachment theory in a way that implies that anyone who disagrees with that statement is acting in bad faith. However - you have on several occasions on various talkpages ignored quotations from Bowlbys work on attachment theory in which he describes his first use of the word and what it means, and material from other notable commentators. Why is this? You then seek to start the same discussions making the same assertions on new pages - such as the monotropy article you wrote or these mediation pages.
• None of this is appropriate on this page anyway and we are probably all about to be slapped on the wrist and chucked off. As I have said to you elsewhere - mediation requires an assumption of good faith, an unbiassed statement of the nature of the dispute and notification to all relevent parties. You then wait for a mediator to come along and offer to mediate. That seems increasingly unlikely. A request for mediation is not an attack page.Fainites 20:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Higher Education: Don's delight Dr Raj Persaud on Maternal Deprivation Reassessed -the book that changed his life

The Guardian (Manchester); Jan 21, 1997; DR RAJ PERSAUD; p. 002

THE book which had the most profound impact on all our lives is often a publication we may not even be aware of - for it must be the literature which our parents consumed as we grew up - anxiously seeking guidance on how to bring up sane children.

The child psychologist your parents religiously followed in print has, decades later, been proved entirely wrong! Even if our parents did not read popular tomes such as John Bowlby's 'Can I leave my baby?', published in 1958, this eminent British psychoanalyst shaped the way a generation of parents related to their offspring.

He was interpreted as insisting that continuity and closeness of maternal care were the only certain ways of preventing adolescent and adult psychological disturbance. The inevitable conclusion was that mothers should not go out to work. All mothers who wanted a career or a life outside of childcare worried about comments like Bowlby's: 'Mother-love in infancy and childhood is as important for mental health as are vitamins and proteins for physical health.' Then came the book which argued the primary care-giver need not be the mother, nor were her absences always hazardous - Maternal Deprivation Reassessed, published in 1972 by Sir Michael Rutter, Professor of Child Psychiatry at London University's Institute of Psychiatry. It is difficult for us to recall, before Putter's book, what a struggle it was for women to break free from the notion that spending some time away from their children inevitably resulted in 'deprivation'.

My mother left us for a year to finish her PhD in Britain, when my brother and I were both under 10. It is Putter's book which ensured she never felt guilty for temporarily leaving us, and which ensures that, today, my wife continues to pursue her career as an eye-surgeon, as well as having children. By challenging what we believe constitutes good parenting. Maternal Deprivation Reassessed has changed not just my life, but all our lives.

Dr Raj Persaud is consultant psychiatrist at The Maudsley Postgraduate Psychiatric Teaching Hospital, University of London.

To order any book mentioned in Guardian Education, call 0500 600102

KingsleyMiller (talk) 09:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE DISCUSSION WITHOUT AUTHORITY -THIS IS BEING REPORTED TO AN ADMINISTRATOR AS VANDALISMKingsleyMiller (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)