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Edit this section for new requests

Momento edit-warring over criticism section at Prem Rawat

• Article probation, see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Prem_Rawat#Article_probation
• Momento (talk · contribs) twice removed the Criticism section in less than an hour:
  1. First time, in three steps: 21:35, 17 May 2008 - 21:36, 17 May 2008 - 21:47, 17 May 2008
  2. Second time, revert 22:16, 17 May 2008
• In the mean while some talk had been going on at Talk:Prem Rawat#Criticism section, not amounting anywhere near to a consensus to remove the entire section.
• Momento's behaviour is uncooperative to say the least, please take him out for some time, not too long, just enough to make him realise this is not an acceptable method to take control over something he doesn't like. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

refactored evidence - see below

I can add more evidence of problematic behavior during and since the ArbCom case, and will do so this evening . I request that folks avoid making a final decision here until all the evidence is in. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

• I closed this and blocked Momento for 3 days. Then after 1/2 day or so I unblocked him and have decided to seek further evidence and input for all concerned and uninvolved admins. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Refactored and added evidence, all from May:

• Made sweeping (and false) assertion about what "all other sources claim".
  • 10:04, May 1, 2008 (sticking to the source)
• Reverted to his version of intro, which didn't include the claim of notability, despite extensive discussion of newer version
  • 22:57, May 2, 2008 (merged info from the last two versions of the lead/removed cites to article)
• Deleted fact reported by AP, replacing it with 2nd-hand reporting in a memoir which makes a derogatory assertion about a living person, claiming that that source, "trumps all". (In response to my assertion that the AP trumps a memoir).
  • 23:43, May 11, 2008 (hotel beds correct figure)
  • 02:24, May 12, 2008 (Eye witness trumps all)
• Deleted material claiming it's misquoted, while in fact it's almost a verbatim quote.
  • 05:56, May 16, 2008 (Removed misquoted Galanter)
• Deleted material sourced to Time magazine, asserting "excess weight"
  • 22:14, May 16, 2008 (relocated "teaching" material from "Leaving India" section to "Teachings" section. Remove Time quote and Collier quote as undue weight)
• Twice deleted "criticism" section and sourced material that had been developed via extensive discussions on talk page.
  • See above
• Deleted all mention of organized opposition, gave inadequate explanation
  • 21:25, May 17, 2008 (REmoved extremists websites)
• Keeps asserting that the New York Times is an unreliable source. (He'd previous asserted that the L.A. Times was an unreliable source.)
• There is an active mediation effort related to this topic but Momento has failed to participate. Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-04-20 Divine Light Mission
  • He was also a party in at least one previous mediation effort: Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Prem Rawat
• His talk page contains numerous complaints and warnings from a variety of editors, including those who share his POV.
  • User talk:Momento

In summary, this is a single-topic editor and acknowledged student/follower of the movement. His is apparently editing Misplaced Pages with the sole intention of promoting certain POVs regarding his teacher. He does so in a disruptive manner that frequently ignores consensus and Misplaced Pages norms, or that is simply incorrect. He has been editing for more than two years and shows no improvement. Rather than a short block, I suggest an indefinite topic ban. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Francis has complained here that I employed edit warring at the Prem Rawat article over the "Criticism" section. He is wrong. The "Criticism" heading was added by Mukadderat without discussion the day before my edit. NPOV policy says "Care must be taken to ensure the overall presentation (of an article) is broadly neutral". In this case, having a section called "Criticism" is a "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself" and "may require additional attention to protect neutrality and avoid problems like POV forks and undue weight".

So in good faith I spent 20 minutes relocating the three paragraphs of the new "Criticism" section into the appropriate places. The substance of two paragraphs had already been covered in the article (Mishler in "Coming of Age" and Kent's view by others in "Teachings") so I added the cited sources to that existing material. The third paragraph, a five sentence comparison of two charismatic religious leaders (Osho and Rawat) by Schnabel is too big and out of proportion to the rest of the article, so I relocated it to the "Teachings of Prem Rawat" article where it belongs. I then removed the "Criticism" heading since the "criticism" was covered through the article.

This was reverted by WillBeback . After reading Will's rationale in Talk I used my one-revert-per-day to return to my NPOV version ]

This isn't edit warring, it is me removing and repairing an undiscussed edit by an uninvolved editor that contravenes NPOV guidelines.

On the other hand, since this article was unprotected Francis has reverted me four times. He reverted me three times claiming that the source I quoted (Fahlbusch E. et al) didn't support my addition of "despite rival claims from his own family". . As you see, I am right and Francis is wrong .

In a similar situation I spent an hour removing errors, finding new sources for "citation needed" material and improving readability of the "Teachings" section. Within 11 minutes of completion Francis reverted and re-inserted the following errors..

• Briefly,
  • 1. Lipner doesn't refer to "dogma" or " direct inner experience' but to "ritual" and "true religion is a matter of loving and surrendering to God who dwells in the heart" as I corrected
  • 2. Galanter source refers to premies giving satsang not Rawat which I corrected.
  • 3. Naming Van der lans and Derks is undue weight, which I corrected.
  • 4. Inserted material than has been tagged "citation needed" for more than a month, which I corrected.

I used my one-revert-per-day to reinstate my much improved version. During this period Francis has characterized my edit summaries as "lies" , criticized me in the "talk" pages and filled this complaint without informing me. How long can he get away with this behavior?

I would appreciate if before such measures are taken, that evidence about other editors behaviors that may have triggered the last round of editing disputes and reverts is allowed to be presented. I am under severe time limitations due some personal issues, but would do my best to present evidence no later than tomorrow AM UTC. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

If jossi has an issue with other editors, he should file a complaint about them in the appropriate place. This is not about other editors, it's been going on for 2 years already (it may take two to tango, but why is one of them always Momento?!). Regardless of what other editors are or are not doing, this kind of behaviour is wrong. Even if jossi could prove someone else was edit-warring, it would not be terribly germane to this issue, unless you believe two wrongs make a right. How about instead, let jossi try and defend Momento's behaviour by talking about the edits in question and explain why they should be allowed? Somehow, I don't think he's up for that challenge... -- Maelefique 23:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I will have a look at this tomorrow and may provide feedback then. Jayen466 01:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Section break

WP:AE is not a place to address content disputes, but to address editor's behaviors that may be in violation of ArbCom remedies. As such, I will not address specific edits made by involved editors.

We just came out of a long and exhaustive ArbCom case on this and related articles. During the time the case was open on March 18, and until the arbcom case closed on May 12, the article was protected due to edit-warring in which User:Momento (the user about which this AE posting was made) and User:Francis Schonken (the filer of this AE posting) and others were protagonists. (log ; diff evidence of edit warring is available in the evidence page).

During the ArbCom proceedings active editors of these articles engaged in discussions in different articles and together sought WP:DR by requesting MedCab assistance, initially with the related article Divine Light Mission and extending it to other articles as well: Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2008-04-20_Divine_Light_Mission.

• User:Francis Schonken has chosen so far not to participate in the mediation effort, despite being made aware of it via article talk pages as well as directly .
• During the time the article was protected, editors sought to continue discussions that could move things forward during that time. Francis did not.
• As soon as the protection was lifted, Francis springs to action and starts editing the article as if nothing has happened, making substantive changes to the article, without explanations or prior discussion.. There are times in which being bold is warranted, and other times in which this is not a good idea. After a protracted ArbCom case, for example.
• Momento reacts with by undoing many of these edits, moving material to other articles, removing new material added by Francis, and re-instating previous versions of certain paragraphs
• A series of reverts ensues in which User:Francis Schonken, User:Momento, and User:Will Beback participate. Common sense soon prevails and the article is brought back to the version pre-ArbCom case. (It begs the question, why do we need this AE report? What is the purpose of re-filing an AE case, when the source of the dispute has been removed?)
• During the last few days, personal attacks by User:PatW, which was blocked during the ArbCom case, re-ocurred. , this time targeted at User:Momento, which he self-reverts a few hours later , although the damage was already done, unecessarily escalating a content dispute into a personal dimension. (What is the point of making a personal attack, leaving it for a few hours, and then removing the attack without an apology, with a possible motive to escape the obvious consequences as established in the probation? At this point in the game, editors should know better that to push their luck.)

What all this demonstrates? That editors such as Momento, Francis Schonkem, and PatW need to start getting clued in the fact that editing is a privilege, not right, and that clicking the edit button carries responsibilities as well. Would it be possible that editors start using the edit button not to beat their opponents over the head? Would it be possible that editors start thinking that maybe such attitude gives you a short-lived high, but that in the long run an edit that you know will not fly and that will escalate an already tense situation, is not the best of behaviors? What about starting thinking in these terms: "How can I improve this article in a manner that other editors would accept it and that I can live with"; "Does this edit have the potential to remain in the article, or will it be reverted on-sight?"

Quoting User:FT2, a member of Arbcom in a recent discussion: The primary concerns of Misplaced Pages related to editors' communications are 1/ the prevention or reduction of gross breach of integrity of the editorial process, and 2/ the prevention or reduction of social friction, or other actions, that might detract editors from congenially collaborating on the objectives of the project, or significantly impede the aims of the project.

The breach of integrity of the editorial process includes never-ending disputes and no attempts to bridge differences. After the ArbCom case closed some of us are making good-faith efforts to conduct an orderly debate so that the focus can be on improving content rather than engage in useless edit wars and the escalation of inter-personal strife. It may not be easy given the animosity that has been generated through the presentation of evidence in which each side of the dispute has tried to paint their opponents in the worst possible light, so tempers are high and the tension palpable. But please, we have no other choice than to work together and within an effort that will result in article stability so that eventually we can move our energies to other articles.

I would encourage all editors involved, to take the article probation seriously and make good faith attempts in dispute resolution, with the assistance of the good volunteers at MedCab, and limit the use of round trips to AE to egregious violations of the spirit of this project. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Meowy

Meowy (talk · contribs) is involved in edit warring together with MarshallBagramyan on the same articles about Lachin (town and district). He was explained many times that in controversial articles like this independent sources are preferable. However he restored to the article a reference to the Armenian nationalistic author Samvel Karapetian yet again, which is 2 rvs within the last 2 days. His persistence on using this particular source is very strange, considering that I provided a much better independent source, which he mentions in his subsequent edit, but does not use for whatever reason. I’m not quite sure what this user is trying to do, but in any case it is an obvious and deliberate violation of 1RR limitation, on which he was placed as per the arbcom case AA2: and which is still in force. Grandmaster (talk) 05:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Not for the first time (and - I bet - not for the last time) Grandmaster indulges in some gameplay, trying to exploit Misplaced Pages for his own ends. I have not been "edit warring". The only person who says that the cited source, a book by Karpetian, is unacceptable is Grandmaster himself - and, beyond broad and unproven slurs like "Armenian nationalistic author" he seems incapable of articulting what his specific objections to the source are. In fact, he agrees that the source is factually correct in its information - the information being the former name of Lachin. The alternative source is not a "better source", it is a foreign-language online source written in Cyrillic. Given that the English-language source - the book by Karapetian - contains exactly the same information, it should be the one used for an English Misplaced Pages article. Meowy 17:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The source that you are persistently trying to include has a strong conflict of interest in this issue, Karapetyan openly expresses his racist views about Turkic people to a western journalist. Such source cannot be considered neutral or reliable, and you know that. And I'm not the only one objecting to the use of this source, another 3 editors agreed with me. But this board is not about content disputes, you made 2 rvs in the last couple of days, which is a clear violation of your 1RR parole. Grandmaster (talk) 17:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The only racism is from you, you who are dismissing a source, which happens to be a detailed, comprehensive and reliable book (and a book which you have never laid eyes upon), for no other reason than that its author happens to be Armenian. There is no "conflict of interest" - you yourself have admitted that the fact that Ardalar is the former name for Lachin (for which the book is being used as a reference) is a correct fact. And I only made one revert, on 13th May. The revert was to restore the Ardalar information - information that you agree was correct! Meowy 18:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I am at a loss to understand what Grandmaster's agenda is here. I added the Ardalar information to the entry. He then removed it. Another editor re-inserted it. Grandmaster's pal Atabek erased it again. I restored it. Meanwhile, Grandmaster dismissed the source because of its author, dismissed the old map I cited as another source, demanded I upload a scan of said map (with the implication that I was lying about its contents), then, when I did upload it, he dismissed all maps as sources! And all this is over a trivial fact he himself admits is correct! What is his objection to a reader knowing that the old name of Lachin is Ardalar? Or is his real agenda to engineer situations in which he can manipulate Misplaced Pages procedures in order to attack editors he disagrees with? Meowy 19:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I only want the article to be properly sourced in accordance with the wiki rules. I do not understand why you have to use this source that causes so many objections from other users, when there are perfectly acceptable ones. And it is not just about this article, you try to insert the same source to every article about this region to support other claims. It appears that the purpose is to get it accepted first by using it to support a claim that is not so controversial, and then expand its use on other claims. If you only want to state that the older name of the region was Ardalar, you don't need that source at all, I found a better one and provided it at talk. Why cannot we stick to neutral sources? However you go as far as violating your parole just to reinsert it once again to the article. I do not understand this persistence and I don't think you are allowed to violate your parole, whatever your motivations are. This is very simple, you violated your parole, when you really did not have to, and you did that on purpose, knowing the consequences. Grandmaster (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Quote: "If you only want to state that the older name of the region was Ardalar, you don't need that source at all" - if that were your true opinion (that the fact was uncontested and thus didn't need a reference), then why did you erase the mention of Ardalar when you erased the mention of the reference, and then ask to see the scan of the map for proof of the former existence of a place called Ardalar? And are you saying you remove information you know is correct just because you don't like the source?

I will continue to use that book, "Armenian Cultural Monuments in the Region of Karabakh", as a source whenever I feel it is needed: it is credible, comprehensive, and unique (there being no other book in English dealing with that subject in such depth). Your sweeping dismissal of everything in a book you have never even set eyes upon says much about your overall attitude here. And, once again, I made only one revert. Meowy 21:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

And as further proof, Grandmaster says in the above that he accepts that Ardalar is the old name for Lachin, yet on this ] talk page he says the exact opposite, quote "the city was founded in Soviet times too. How could they have any old names? This is just invention of Armenian propaganda to justify the claims on Azerbaijani lands". It is as I suspected. His objection to a reader knowing that the old name of Lachin is Ardalar is because that trivial but truthful fact disagrees with some lies contained in Azerbaijani propaganda. Meowy 23:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You made 2 rvs, second one by restoring the source that was not considered reliable by other users. And I don't mind mentioning that the old name of the town (at the time a village) was Ardalar, as long as it is properly sourced. I was only asking you to provide a third party source, which I eventually found myself. You persistence on using Armenian sources and rejecting Azerbaijani ones is a violation of wiki rules, which require using third party sources for controversial topics. You were claiming that An "Azeri author" is not capable of reflecting on "historical truth", which is a pretty racist claim. But despite that, I still suggest that we give preference to neutral sources when writing about controversial topics, that will help to increase the reliability of the articles, as there will be less claims that the article is dominated by Armenian or Azerbaijani propaganda. Grandmaster (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan

MarshallBagramyan (talk · contribs) is involved in edit warring in Nagorno-Karabakh related articles, which is the area covered by the arbcom cases Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2. He fails to cite any reliable sources to support his claims and resorts to edit warring to keep the nationalist Armenian source that he uses as his sole reference in the article. While the rv parole me and other users were placed on a year ago has expired, I voluntarily agreed to stick to it, and the admins recommended other users editing the arbcom ruling covered area do the same. However MarshallBagramyan made 2 rvs on Lachin within the last 2 days, in contrast to what the admins recommend: In a situation when everyone else voluntarily sticks to 1RR, such behavior is nothing but baiting others to violate the parole and disruption, and in my opinion this user should be placed on the same editing restrictions as others. I see no reason why anyone should be able to make more than 1 rv per week in this topic area anyway, some people are clearly gaming the system. Grandmaster (talk) 05:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

MarshallBagramyan warned, as per ArbCom remedy. If the user persist after this warning, please post a new request. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Has he been placed on 1RR, or just warned that he would be if he persists? Grandmaster (talk) 05:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Eusebeus still edit-warring over TV episode articles

On April 19, Jac16888 initiated an AE thread concerning Eusebeus, saying Eusebeus "has begun blindly restoring redirects." That thread was closed April 23 by GRBerry with no action taken. Since then, Eusebeus has continued to edit war over Scrubs episode articles like My Best Friend's Mistake , My Mentor , and My Princess . I believe that's a violation of the ArbCom remedy where "The parties are instructed to cease engaging in editorial conflict and to work collaboratively to develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question. They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute." and the also the Principle that "Edit-warring, whether by reversion or otherwise, is prohibited" and the Principle that "It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change. This applies to many editors making a few edits each, as well as a few editors making many edits." As far as I know, no other involved party of E&C2 has been edit-warring with Eusebeus on those articles, and restrictions were not imposed on Eusebeus in particular — so I could understand if no action is taken yet again. However, if that's the case, I think an amendment of the remedies of the E&C2 arbitration case may be in order. Any input would be appreciated. --Pixelface (talk) 05:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You don't think that maintaining the status quo, and neither undoing existing redirects nor creating new ones is the appropriate thing to do? You may well consider that They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute is a sword whose edge may well be directed at you. Kww (talk) 05:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit-warring is never the right thing to do. Catchpole (talk) 05:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

And may be symptomatic of the person's abiity (or lack thereof) to negotiate with others in an ongoing basis. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• Eusebeus and I have since reached something of an agreement over the scrubs articles, at least in the sense that we have both come to the conclusion that an article can stay if it shows some possibility of being more than a plot and music list, as has happened with My Princess, which you neglected to mention does still have an article, with Eusebeus's consent. The two of us have managed to establish a common ground over editing styles. While we both have very different viewpoints, neither of which are likely to change, we've still agreed to work together, the first time I've seen that happen in this "conflict". It would be nice if maybe a few other editors, from both so-called "sides", had a go at this. There's no reason both "sides" can't be more civil in this, if we keep sniping at each other its just going to go on for ever.--Jac16888 (talk) 05:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
• I agree with Jac's comment above and say that, despite our earlier differences, we will be trying (I hope) to chart a way forward with respect to Scrubs. I cannot help but wonder if this is a singularly ill-advised vendetta based on my earlier filing at A/N in which I singled out certain behavioural patterns which, I see, are being repeated. Eusebeus (talk) 05:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

True that. I find some folks eminently agreeable once moving away from the festering sore of TV episodes - and Eusebeus has done some much-needed translating work for which I am grateful, as well as some streling copyediting advice on Dirty Dancing. We are in desperate need of more skilled at prose and it would be great to see more efforts in these areas. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

How does your continued edit-warring over Scrubs episode articles mean I have a "vendetta" against you? Jac16888 says you two have reached something of an agreement, but you've also dragged Alaskan assassin into this. You keep spreading the dispute. On Talk:List of Scrubs episodes, Oren0 supported un-redirecting the articles and Colonel Warden also supported the reversion of the redirects. Is edit-warring how you plan to "chart a way forward"? --Pixelface (talk) 07:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Far more editors spoke in favor of keeping the redirects, and the whole situation has been stable for a week. Are you worried that the problem might go away unless you keep reporting it on noticeboards?Kww (talk) 12:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• could we maybe pause all this for a few days?, i have exams this week.--Jac16888 (talk) 06:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

  Good luck....Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out that I really can't see a motive for this report other than enflaming an already unpleasant situation. This report documents events that are

1. Over a week old
2. Already settled by discussion between Eusebeus and Jac16888 on their talk page
3. Already settled by a parallel discussion between me and Alaskan Assassin on my talk page?

What's the purpose of bringing it to AE now?Kww (talk) 12:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The parties were told to cease engaging in editorial conflict. That's why I filed the report. And frankly I was unaware of the discussion at User talk:Alaskan assassin or User talk:Kww. Alaskan assassin said "gotcha" and you say it's settled? And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't these two reverts occur after this was supposedly "settled"? --Pixelface (talk) 13:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"Gotcha" followed by his actions (he ceased undoing redirects) seems to be agreement to me. As for the other two edits, they are a week old, and the undoing of the redirect was by an anonymous IP ... really hard to come to agreements or terms with anonymous editors.Kww (talk) 13:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

So "editorial conflict" is okay as long as it's against anonymous IPs? --Pixelface (talk) 14:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I am somewhat concerned about other unconstructive behavior with regards to the editor under question.

• Notice as well, assuming bad faith: , , , ,
• Incivility: , , , , , , ,
• Dramatizing: , , , ,
• Use of obscenity/curse/swear words in edit summary: ,
• Also, not signing post.
• Finally, I'm not sure if the calling me "Pumpkin" rather than LGRdC or Roi is mocking: ,

Please also consider DGG's comment regarding Eusebeus' incivility and how Eusebeus ignoed DGG's warning and brushed off BrownHairedGirl's later warning on his talk page and even edited her post. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• To make the obvious point, none of this is germane to the question at hand, which is my supposed disruptive editing over Scrubs episodes. This is Arbitration Enforcement. As you seem eager, however, to bring up this litany of my abuse at every venue, may I suggest three doors down on the left you will find WP:RFC, which you may find highly suitable to your needs? It is a fairly straightforward matter to launch a user RfC. Eusebeus (talk) 18:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It is relevant here, because the arbitrators encouraged editors to work constructively and to not inflame the situation. Many of these instances cited above do not demonstrate efforts to work constructively, but do show evidence of making things worse. I disagree with plenty of editors, but I do not devolve into hyperbole or toss blatant insults at them. I just hope that you could show similar courtesy to those with whom you disagree, but if you are unwilling to do so, then I hope someone else can persuade/convince you. I always hold out the hope that all of us can "get along" somehow or other. The attacks and anger is just not necessary. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 19:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

9/11 general sanctions

SalvNaut

SalvNaut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has a long history of tendentiously lobbying to insert unreliable information and promote fringe theories about 9/11. I request an uninvolved administrator to review their edits and issue either a warning or topic ban as appropriate. Jehochman 15:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

To my knowldedge, I never insert unreliable information. I base my edits on secondary sources, and I am very well aware of the status of CDH in the engineering community, or 9/11 theories in the mainstream. I edit these topics because some time ago I've read a lot of official, unofficial, scientifc, pseud-scientifc documents and my curiosity has not been put to rest at all. I wait eagerly for the NIST WTC7 report, and any other publications. The last edit provided by Jehochman (who has a habit of putting everyone he does not agree with under AN) is very appropriate to the CDH article, because it is about a peer-reviewed article published in a third-party engineering journal. Very relevant and one of the reasons why the CDH still lives, imho. I would surely agree on a different wording, but see no reason why the info should be removed entirely. I don't have much time for editing, that's why I am WP:BOLD and put my edits in place, instead of putting them under discussion. I had, and have, no other intents, after first reactions to my edit, than to wait and see how discussion on the talk page evolves... and now this AN case, too, of course. salVNaut (talk) 16:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

My previous complaints here about 9/11 disruptions were confirmed and the users were either blocked, topic banned or warned. Therefore, I request you strike out the bit about "who has a habit of putting everyone he does not agree with under AN". Thanks. Jehochman 21:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm having a look. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 20:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• After some head-scratching, here are my thoughts. We seem to be dealing with a case of civil POV-pushing again. All this account, SalvNaut (talk · contribs) has ever really done is hammer away on 9/11 articles trying to promote the old idea that 9/11 was the result of a controlled demolition. There's a couple of 3RR blocks in his log, but for the most part I don't see any overt policy violations apart from WP:UNDUE and WP:TE - not good ones to violate, admittedly. Usually in these sort of circumstances I'm fairly liberal, because it's not a case of outright trolling, but the problem is that IMO 9/11 controlled-demolition hypotheses are not things we can really have genuine debates over. Academic consensus rejects them pretty much unequivocally, rather like homeopathy. Ergo, in this case, due to tedious continuation of pointless debates, I am inclined to issue an indefinite topic-ban from all 9/11 articles per WP:ARB9/11, but will wait for further opinions from my fellow administrators before acting. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 22:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The idea that it was a controlled demolition is preposterous. We have clear video footage of airplanes causing it. If this user has been pushing this for this long, causing this much drama, then I say a topic ban is in order. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The controlled demolition has its own article: Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center in which these conspiracy theories and hypotheses are presented. I see no need to ban an editor from editing these articles based on a POV that believes that these hypotheses are true. I would only support such a topic ban, if the user is violating policies in his editing endeavors. The question is: Is he? or is he not?≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he is, by proposing the same edits over and over again that are rejected as contrary to policy. This is classic tendentious editing. Jehochman 01:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not quite ready to impose sanctions here, though I'd not argue if another admin saw fit to do so. In the meantime it would be prudent for User:SalvNaut to press the CDH stuff only on that specific article and not on more general articles relating to 9/11 where it risks running afoul of WP:UNDUE. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I've been editing only these articles since 6 months or so. It is true that there might be not enough secondary sources to present these views in other articles, for sure these views are not welcomed. salVNaut (talk) 10:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a clear misrepresentation by Jehochman. I propose edits when new secondary sources show up. They might be similar in spirit, but things are evolving. The last edit was about the first peer-reviewed (no doubt about it) article in an engineering journal (low to moderate impact) from proponents of CDH. I discussed it on the talk page before, but only recently an news article in a reliable newspaper was published, hence my bold edit. Those with superficial knowledge of the topic seem not to acknowledge that there is at least some science happening here. Please note, that Jehochman issued a controversial accusation on Thomas Basboll when Thomas implemented a consensus reached on the talk page. salVNaut (talk) 10:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You took a very trivial reference and inserted it into the most prominent part of the article, the lead, to create the POV appearance that there is some sort of legitimacy to the controlled demolition hypothesis, when there isn't. You did this repeatedly, in opposition to multiple other editors who were supported by policy. Misplaced Pages is not the place to publicize Truther propaganda. Please find another website for that. Thanks. Thomas Basboll was banned from editing, and the Arbitration Committee has thus far upheld that decision. Your complaint on that basis is extremely tendentious. Jehochman 11:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I actually agree with Jehochman here. If my editing violates the 9/11 decision then SalvNaut's most certainly does. (I'm not that kind of guy, but if I were I'd be a bit pissed if Salv were not banned.) Unlike me, SalvNaut is clearly here to defend the controlled demolition hypothesis. He wants to put it in as a good a light as possible (but he understands that what is possible is defined by WP's policies). In my opinion, WP benefits from such editors because they represent important aspects of the topic of the article. The article is in large part about believers in a fringe hypothesis, and SalvNaut appears to be such a believer. So long as he remains civil, surely it is a gift to hear his views on how the material is presented. Would we really want to chase, say, Jones or Griffin away if they took an interest in the page? Again, one can imagine it getting ugly, but neither Salv nor I have been ugly about it. We have suggested changes to the article, sometimes by making them, but always with an openness to their being reverted, discussed, modified, and ultimately winding up in some other part of the article. This new notion of "civil POV-pushing" as a bannable offense marks a new era for WP. It may be wise, I don't know. In any case, it may be prudent to wait to ban Salv until the precedent in mine case is clear. But in his defense: Salv's sensitiv to "good news" for the CDH often turns up perfectly informative stuff, like this journal article. It doesn't belong in the lead, but he's the reason it will have made it quickly into the article if does. (It should go in the article somewhere.)--Thomas Basboll (talk) 11:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thomas, aren't you are topic banned from 9/11? Why are you involving yourself in this dispute, at risk of getting blocked? Jehochman 13:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you cite the policy you are referring to which would allow a block of Thomas for this edit here.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 13:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I probably would not have commented if my case wasn't being discussed here. I have been banned "from the September 11 attacks-related articles and talk page".--Thomas Basboll (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"..., when there isn't."-- and that's according to who? Yes, my view is that there is some sort of legitimacy to the controlled demolition hypothesis (however, I recognize that the hypothesis itself might be false), and apparently reviewers from Bentham Open do think so, too. The CDH article is the place to provide such information. Not in the lead? Ok. let's discuss it. (here, I admit "shoving" facts into articles instead of discussing them, myself). Jehochman is so 100% sure of his thoughts that he deleted from the article a completely valid information on the right place, and he apparently accuses me(?) of sockpuppetry. It's the second time I'm accused of it, while I don't do that. It sucks. salVNaut (talk) 12:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Please present a diff to showing where I have accused you of sock puppetry. The IP editor below could be anybody. You are assuming bad faith. Your endless wikilawyering continues to prove my assertion that Misplaced Pages would be much better off if you stopped editing this particular set of articles, and instead focused on some of the other millions of articles available for editing. Jehochman 13:04, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Then, I am sorry, for assuming bad faith. As for, what I should edit - please let me be "the decider". salVNaut (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you carefully study my edits, you'll see that I also edited other topics of my interest. Still, it is no doubt true that 9/11 conspiracy articles spark my action most often. Is this unhealthy to the Misplaced Pages? Let's hear about it. salVNaut (talk) 14:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Enforcement of 911 Arbcom is getting out of hand if editors are using it in an attempt to get good faith editors banned because they do not agree with their own POV. salVNaut did not add anything that was not factual, and if relevant, it was in the wrong section and too detailed which is the worst that can be claimed. Instead of addressing his edit civily, salVNaut is reverted with comments assuming bad faith, accusations of promoting Truther propaganda and a request for a ban based on the edits being against policy (Truth is now against WP policy?). Good faith but misguided(?) editors may be annoying but they are essential for nuetrality as they counter the POV extremists who regard controlled demolition as impossible which is a position even most experts who support the OCT do not claim. When I first came to read the 911 articles I expected any problems would be conspiracy theorists adding rubbish but I was struck by the mass of false claims the articles included for no other reason than to discredit conspiracy theories. Possibly half of the articles current content was at one time vehemently opposed because, while factual, it was first proposed by conspiracy theorists. It is thanks to debates/arguments between editors supporting both sides that the articles are currently as good as they are. If salVNaut's edits do not have merit then they will be scrapped by consensus instead of on the say so of a few POV editors, but if he is condemned for proposing them in the first place rather than for any violations of policy the POV extremists have won control of the page. Wayne (talk) 17:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

SalvNaut repeatedly added obscure content in support of the conspiracy theory to the lead of the article. This was reverted many times. Finally, when SalvNaut stopped, a sock puppet account appeared and continued adding the disputed material. Jehochman 17:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Using words like "obscure, unreliable information", etc. without any proof (any merit imho) does not help. The fact that you give something a bad name does not make it so. Not all of my edits shine, but most facts I added to the article stay there to this day (including the first diff provided as evidence in this case), albeit many edited and changed, and that's even better. What's most interesting in Misplaced Pages editing is to see how others with different POV's adjust facts to their worldview. I do not edit too often, thus, yours "Finally, when stopped" must regard my last two reverts (I know 3RR), both commented with reasonable arguments, after which I stopped and joined the discussion on the talkpage.... salVNaut (talk) 18:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You understand the situation here. 9/11 is a serious topic and we don't want any unreliable information, nor do we want to "stack the deck" by allowing a minority view or a fringe view to get more than it's fair share of coverage. I think you can consider yourself full informed of the possible consequences. As far as I am concerned, you are free to edit, but please follow WP:5P as closely as possible, especially when working on contentious articles. This is a collaborative project and we need to work together, even if we have different views. Jehochman 22:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We agree on general matters, but apparently we disagree in details. The sourced information I proposed in the lead of the CDH article should stay in the article, possibly in another place than the lead (I won't argue on placement, no time). salVNaut (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with including relatively minor facts in their proper place. Jehochman 20:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Lets not be confused about the issue here...yes, civil POV pushing has become a forte of a core group of 9/11 CTers...and some are adept at being subtle in their proposed additions. My understanding is that if an editor is topic banned from 9/11 related articles, then they shouldn't be permitted to continue to comment regarding proposed topic bans on similarly inclined CT advocates. We need to stop wasting our time with these editors and put our foot down. Some of these editors have done little but promote CT in 9/11 articles and in the worst cases, have been terribly detrimental to any potential that these articles can be deemed relaible enough to become featured while they continue to try and undermine the encyclopedic integrity of them. Lest we find ourselves back at square one regarding this issue, the CT POV pushers should be simply topic banned. If they really care about Misplaced Pages, then surely there are millions of unrelated articles they could write or edit. If Griffin or Jones and other published CTers show up, I think it is pretty obvious that just because they have written and in some cases published a book or paper that their non-science si going to be any more acceptable than an unpublished editor. If they are here to promote non-science, then that is a detriment to this project.--MONGO 16:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Diversity of (sourced, verifiable) opinions is what makes Misplaced Pages more interesting than, let's say, Britannica (not in your opinion, I guess). Let's not be confused here: the much over-exhaustive removal of "any other than mainstream POV on 9/11 events" from main articles, albeit also from any other article, hidden with WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE (which do not recommend complete removal), etc, has become a forte of a core group of "deletionists","defenders", who, very often, just promote their POV.

Every month there is an article published in European media, World media, which raises concerns about 9/11 events and truth, let me give a recent example. Those are from different perspectives, they raise mixed opinions; the point I bring it here is that people are concerned; only a scientific apporach addressing difficult questions can settle (most of) these voices down (and you won't have that effect with cutting the discussion short, framing questions as non-issues).

When comes to science: the core point of my last edit to CDH was that the authors, mentioned by you, do try to promote real science, which in this case is a publish in a peer-reviewed journal, which tries to stir up a scientific discussion within the community (about topics like these). salVNaut (talk) 22:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

152.131.10.133

152.131.10.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is another tendentious, povpushing account that is disrupting 9/11-related articles. Checkuser has indicated that this is a sockpuppet of a named editor. I believe they are logging out intentionally to avoid scrutiny. I suggest the editor (whether editing via named account or IP) be topic banned per WP:ARB9/11. Jehochman 11:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, it seems that the CU was inconclusive. Could you please clarify? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The CU revealed that it's a named editor, apparently logging out to evade scrutiny. I am looking for a review of their edit history to see if enforcement is needed. The editor's indentity remains private until a determination is made. If this were an anon, that would be a different situation. Jehochman 23:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah; this is unacceptable behavior if they are involved in the topic already. If they are just some user, then whatever — warn them as an IP and let it drop. But if they're someone involved in the topic and not banned, then they need to be held to account here. Logging out and editing with an IP account is not an acceptable way to behave if it is to avoid sanctions or scruntiny. --Haemo (talk) 00:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• It's hard for me to make a value judgement on whether someone is intentionally trying to avoid scrutiny or just prefers to edit while logged out. The user in question is Bov (talk · contribs). I will decline for the moment to disclose his other IPs, since you did not spot them; if a ban is enacted and you suspect him of violating it, you can file a RFCU. Although with no prior warnings, it would seem that starting out with a 1RR per page per week and a warning about logging out to avoid scrutiny would be the place to start. Thatcher 02:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, this isn't the first time this has come up: , never went anywhere last time...but it is ongoing. RxS (talk) 04:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, in either case, the reviewing admin should consider Bov's editing history, which is highly involved in the subject area, and the previous complaints regarding this IP when deciding on a course of action. --Haemo (talk) 04:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• Perhaps we should issue a warning to this editor to use only one account when editing in the 9/11 article series. Perhaps we should add that to the general sanctions: all editors are required to use only one account when editing 9/11 related articles. This would help avoid gaming or the appearance of gaming, the two of which may be impossible to distinguish. Jehochman 20:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea, and will propose it as an amendment to the arbcom decision. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Followup: A couple of arbs basically said "yes, we don't need to decide because admins already can do that" and archived it. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Eyrian on an IPs?

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

inconclusive...Rlevse

• 65.11.23.219 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 71.9.8.150 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 72.151.55.27 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/JohnEMcClure confirmed that Eyrian, who participated aggresively in AfDs and last edited in October 2007 and who was subsequently blocked per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Eyrian, made "numerous IP edits". Notice this IP's edit history that follows seems to focus on certain kinds of articles. Now today, notice this edit in which the IP writes, "It's been awhile since I've seen an ipc article nominated", but if you look again at the edit history of the IP, there are NO previous edits to any IPC articles, which thus makes that statement odd and as if it is from someone who either edits using different IPs or who is an old user. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• There are many editors who are AFD regulars (this IP certainly is if it is a stable IP) and care about IPC, fancruft, trivia, episodes, and the like. Any specific reason you think this is Eyrian as opposed to someone else? And do you really think the closing admins are going to pay any attention to IP comments that don't make new arguments? I don't think the admins will. GRBerry 18:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I think Eyrian, because the IP's edits start around the time that Eyrian stopped editing from his Eyrian account (in October 2007) and started using different accounts and IPs. I suppose one of the arbitration committee checkusers could check the IP to see (I'm not sure if they could go back far enough to check if it's Eyrian, but if it is someone also using additional current accounts or IPs, those might show up). Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Two possibilities. 1) This isn't Eyrian - obviously, we shouldn't do anything then, but it would be helpful to point out to the editor that commenting in an AFD using an IP results in minimal weight and the user might consider using an account. 2) This is Eyrian - then he can readily evade by going to a different IP (proxy, resetting a router, going to a different coffee shop, et cetera...). Either way, I don't see much to gain by blocking an IP. So far as I can see, since the case close identified or even suspected any puppets or IP addresses of Eyrian that were still in use at the time suspected, so I don't know what would happen if we tagged as a suspected puppet. Definitely try the user's talk page for a discussion. Consider tagging with {{sockpuppet}} and watching; if the IP editor vanishes then that will be confirmation of a sort, but indicate that an unending game of whack-a-mole is forthcoming. GRBerry 19:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I sent an email to Morven who was the checkuser on the Eyrian case just in case if the IPs identified at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/JohnEMcClure, which were not listed there, were not tagged. Also, I see at top of this page that we should notify the user. Is there a template for this page similar to the ANI notification template that could be placed on the IPs talk page? Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 19:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
        • Not that I'm aware of. Write a message, with attention to the third paragraph of the "Enforcement" section above. "A discussion about you is underway at ] might suffice." GRBerry 20:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Another IP that looks somewhat similarly suspicious is this one. Also another IP in the 7 range has just posted a similar edit to that other one. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The IPs are unlikely to be related. They all originate from home internet providers. Two originate from the same provider, but different regions. The other originates from a different provider. Vassyana (talk) 06:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC) I am not a checkuser.

Is it possible for a checkuser to see who the one IP is that claims to have not seen an IPC AfD in a while and yet the IP has no edits to IPC AfDs? Do the checkusers still have the information on Eyrian to see if it's likely or if in fact it is actually a current user possibly using IPs as socks? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 01:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Macedonia

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

closed per Moreschi...Rlevse

We have the Greek-Macedonian naming and symbols conflict spilling over again. Can somebody please apply WP:ARBMAC sanctions generously all round?

Situation currently focussing on Template:Ethnic Macedonians, a navbox. Conflict has been over whether the navbox should contain a flag or similar symbol, and if yes which. Macedonian editors favour the "Vergina sun" symbol, which is a matter of political contention with Greece (the Republic of Macedonia was forced not to use it as a state flag, after pressure by Greece, but Macedonian individuals and private organisations still unanimously use it as a popular ethnic symbol.) There was a straw poll, which was probably rigged by votestacking from (at least) the Macedonian side. Now the Macedonians are claiming numerical victory and have begun implementing their prefered solution; Greek users are predictably edit-warring against it. Most notable opponent among the Greeks is Avg (talk · contribs), who has made it clear that he regards the use of the symbol as "theft" and will use any means to prevent it. The whole situation is surrounded by a good deal of incivility, mostly by Raso mk (talk · contribs) and MacedonianBoy (talk · contribs) from the ethnic Macedonian side. Some parallel disruption is happening on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians.

My personal view is that Avg needs to be topic-banned from Macedonia-related disputes for a good while, as he has made it more than clear his behaviour is overtly POV-driven; he just doesn't accept any use of names and symbols that is contrary to his POV , will use brute edit-warring force against it, and has repeatedly shown he is impenetrable to reasoned debate in these matters. Raso mk and MacedonianBoy need civility paroles at the very least. Makedonij (talk · contribs) is another factor that needs some looking into. Tsourkpk (talk · contribs), Avg, MacedonianBoy and Makedonij could all do with short blocks for sterile revert-warring over the template. Tsourkp , and Raso mk have done some votestacking on-wiki (though the most significant parts of that were probably off-wiki anyway).

Please note that this is going to be a flame-fest if the parties to this conflict become aware of this discussion. My recommendation is each of them should be allowed at most one brief statement. Any bickering between them on this page should be met with immediate blocks, or the page will very quickly become unuseable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. There appears to be also some heavy revert-warring at Macedonian language. MacedonianBoy (talk · contribs) is claimed to have gone up to 6R, two Greek users (Tsourkpk (talk · contribs) and The Cat and the Owl (talk · contribs) have 3 each.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

(Please do not put everybody on the same basket as flamers Fut.) I'm very sensitive to the issue and I don't accept a lot of what comes from the ethnic Macedonian side. I have AfD'd the article Aegean Macedonians since I (and not only me) consider it a POV fork and I've reverted the Vergina Sun image from Template:ethnic Macedonians since it came from a poll where obvious canvassing and sockpuppeting took place. However, I'm always basing my objections to Misplaced Pages policies. I can limit myself to the 1RR if I'm asked to, since I consider this reasonable, however I consider topic banning an extreme and unfair measure, since I have been only responding to actions. I have never created a POV fork, not sockpuppeted, nor have I created a SPA, nor have I canvassed, on or off-Wiki, nor have I insulted anybody. I (and my view) have been on the receiving side of all of the above. I have been insulted by almost every Slavic Macedonian editor (latest one was "Gayreek" from Kobra) and, if I may add, Fut.Perf. has failed to act in order to protect me since he probably considers that I'm "not worth" it, since we have some history. I strongly want a wider enforcement of ARBMAC, which will be very tough against POV pushing from both sides. --   Avg    21:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

As the administrators can see from the pages, the Macedonian users never, never ever used offensive words in the pages, not especially me on that pages for any user. I am trying, and all Macedonian users too, to make a neutrality for the desputive articles but it is not possible because each our edits are deleted or removed. Each line that we write is considered as POV (which is nonsence). Personally, I do not have bad thaoghts for the Greek users, but that 6 reverted edits are as consequence of defeating the page of vandalism, because there was a source for that number of Macedonian speakers but because some of the users do not like that number revertede the page. Also, since we are there I was removing that phrase Billingual speakers, because it is obvious that minority that live in another country must know authomaticly the foreign language, so they are becaming authomaticly bilingual, there was no need for such phrase. Thats why I have made 6 revertings as the users say. And for the navbox, it is sensible topic but the users on Misplaced Pages must know that the Star of Kutleš is our holly flag, we love it and it is our national symbol such as the eagle national symbol for Germany or Russia. But some users did not get it and the Macedonian users felt thretened. That was the problem. The freedom of using our own national symbol is limited. I wish to all the best and I hope everything would be in good order. Regards--MacedonianBoy (talk) 22:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I got emails several times where I was called by the name Monkeydonian. :-( I have not said nothing desputive except the name baby related to one user. --Raso mk (talk) 22:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC) P.S. It was not pushing POV it was just defeating the Macedonian ethnicity and nationality.--Raso mk (talk) 22:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a few notes on MacedonianBoy's reverts and I'm off (no lengthy speaches this time). MaceodnianBoy's reverts on Macedonian language were more than unjustified - he edit-warred to include an unsourced ridiculous number for Macedonian-speakers in Albania with no reason provided for the reverts whatsoever (neither in the edit-summaries nor anywhere else). I had a similiar problem with his stubborn reverts a couple of days ago on where he insisted on a POV tag with no reasons provided again (see: Talk:Grigor_Parlichev#Reasons for the tag. Instead he tried to make a forum out of the talkpage where he and Raso could discuss my contribs. --Laveol 23:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

(un)Add user Polibiush's edit warring on Aegean Macedonians even after being told to start a new section on the talk page and voice his concerns. Broken 3RR already. 3rdAlcove (talk) 00:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I did not break 3RR rule, my edits are different. I see you are still learning Misplaced Pages guidelines, you did not know what a POV is, and also you told me to "fuck off" - completely unacceptable. Polibiush (talk) 03:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Note: I blocked Polibiush 48h for a pretty blatant 3RR violation here. A revert parole might be in order. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding my own behavior, I must say I did get carried away in the heat of the moment and did some things I probably shouldn't have. The two reverts I made to Template:ethnic Macedonians in particular were not such a good idea, and I regret performing them. I had become incensed when I observed massive vote-stacking in both Aegean Macedonians and Template:ethnic Macedonians, with brand new users such as Filipgd appearing out of the woodwork, and no action taken by any admins (one user even went so far as to vote twice ). I find such efforts, in all likelyhood coordinated off-wiki, as particularly insidious and damaging to Misplaced Pages. While my attempts to contact two other users was probably not very intelligent, it was at least done on-wiki and out of frustration rather than part of an organized, premeditated plan. As for my edits to Macedonian language, these edits by MacedonianBoy constitute blatant vandalism IMO, considering the information is important and moreover sourced. In any case, under no circumstances did I break WP:3RR. As FP pointed out, the onlt reverts I performed were 2 on Template:ethnic Macedonians and 3 on Macedonian language. I would also like to point out that in the 10 months I've been on wikipedia, I have maintained a clean record, both with regards to WP:ARBMAC (not even a warning) and elsewhere. I have never broken WP:3RR (or even "gamed the system") and have striven hard to avoid edit warring, discuss things and build consensus. I understand my most recent behavior merits at the very least a warning, but I would like to point out that is the first such instance. I hope that the fact that I have a clean record so far is taken into account by the Arbitration Committee. As a final note, I would like to point that the incivility on the part of some users is far more extensive than indicated by Future Perfect, and particularly brazen and provocative: , , , , , , , , , . The use of irredentist terms such as "Star of Kutles" is also clearly intended to provoke and not helpful at all. --Tsourkpk (talk) 00:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The whole thing is a big nonsense,if there is realy neutralety,administrators shoud understand Ethnic Macedonian,i mean how can Greek editors judge what is thruth about Ethnic Macedonians,when they dont recognize Ethnic Macedonians like a nation.Is there any Macedonian editor editing Greek articles???I put two links in discussion page about most respected ethnic Macedonian associations,i allso insert a link which describe the wholle situation about simbols.Nobody listen,i also inform neutral administrator ChrisO to judge about whole thing,no answer.My apollogise to all,but the thing is simple,let the Greeks use blue one and Macedonians red one.

I dont regrate nothing,everything was fine,the problem was that there was no judge to judge.Makedonij (talk) 06:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Something noteworthy: user:Filipgd is not a new user - he is just the same guy as user:Profesorot. NOT a sockpuppet however, since the Profesorot account has not been active (I guess he forgot his password). BalkanFever 07:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Some examples of Avg's ranting about "monopolisation":

Some examples of incivility from Avg:

Obviously, everything should be read in context, but Tsourkpk didn't bother to provide any with his diffs.... BalkanFever 07:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the edits at Macedonian language - Tsourkpk 3 + The Cat and the Owl 3 vs MacedonianBoy 6 - I can only point to WP:ARBMAC, where concern was expressed over tag-team edit warring. BalkanFever 07:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok

Thus far, 96 hours off for MacedonianBoy + civility supervision, formal civility supervision for Raso mk, and revert parole for Polibiush. I'll come back in another couple of hours and sort out the other half of this dispute (the Greeks). Moreschi (talk) (debate) 10:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Avg has been blocked for 72 hours + topic-banned: Tsourkpk blocked for 48 hours + revert paroled. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 13:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Makedonij blocked for 48 hours and revert paroled. I think that's the lot as far as disciplinary action is concerned. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 13:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I've removed the image entirely and protected the template for 3 months, admin-only. It doesn't need a pic and it's silly for ethnic groups to have flags. Even if not, anything's better than more revert-warring by those left unblocked. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 13:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

TTN and Sonic the Hedgehog characters

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

this is not a debate page, start a clarification if you want to continue this... Rlevse

• note. TTN blatantly violated his ArbCom restrictions and has skirted the edges of it. He is blocked for two weeks, since the last block less than a month ago was for one week. Vassyana (talk) 06:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

One week after TTN was blocked for a week for violating the restrictions imposed on him in the E&C2 arbitration case, TTN decided to violate his restrictions again. In the E&C2 case, TTN was "prohibited for six months from making any edit to an article or project page related to a television episode or character that substantially amounts to a merge, redirect, deletion, or request for any of the preceding, to be interpreted broadly." (bolding mine)

On May 11, 2008, TTN went to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games and said "Only seven articles...and seven character lists...are necessary....That's the basic plan...The main thing is that it gets started..." and also said "as long as there is a number consensus here, and the actual mergers are done slowly, it should work out." Sonic the Hedgehog characters are television characters. TTN made an edit to a project page requesting that a merge be performed on television character articles, and this a violation of the restrictions imposed on him by the arbitration committee. The full thread is visible here (oldid). --Pixelface (talk) 02:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You have misunderstood his restrictions. He did not violate them. The restriction explicitly says "He is free to contribute on the talk pages". This includes being free on project talk pages to suggest merging and deletion. No violation, no action. Go forth and try to find consensus as to the right scope of coverage for these articles, as per the second remedy in that case. GRBerry 02:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

No, the restriction says TTN is prohibited from requesting merges on project pages. The phrase "He is free to contribute on the talk pages" does not allow him to request merges on project talk pages. --Pixelface (talk) 02:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

TTN is restricted from suggesting merges in project space, I'd say this was specifically in relation to wikiprojects. I'd suggest a block is in order here, but I'll leave it for another administrator to look at. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Here we go again, no adding of sources or anything just trimming (almost deleting) around almost TV material (oh heck, Jericho is a TV series, isn't it?). It is like an addiction, or as I said before Single-purpose account dedicated to removing material. However I concede that I too am involved so probably can't act in an uninvolved manner. I am not surprised. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, here we go again. Broad interpretation gone wild. I can play the ... game, too, and I get Can people please, please, please comment? For some reason, people can easily comment on the existence of one article or the inclusion of two sentences in another article, but the existence of close to one hundred gets two comments at most... if someone want to change it, that's fine... the only way that will happen is if people will comment. Looks like someone doing his best to work collaboratively with others. If people would spend more of their time improving and deleting crappy articles and less of their time at Arbcom, Misplaced Pages would be a better place. Again, he is free to contribute on talk pages, and that certainly was on a talk page. Someone close this, please.Kww (talk) 03:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, TTN started by asking for comments. But then he suddenly brings up mergers, saying "as long as there is a number consensus here, and the actual mergers are done slowly, it should work out." And soon after TTN asked for "comments", Krator nominated a Sonic the Hedgehog character article for deletion. What does it mean exactly when someone refers to 89 articles and says only seven articles and seven character lists are necessary? TTN may be free to contribute on talk pages, but he is prohibited from making any edit to a project page that substantially amounts to a request for a merge or deletion. --Pixelface (talk) 03:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

This kind of thing could be avoided if someone would just clarify the overall restriction. Truth be told, I never even noticed the part about project pages, but the whole thing really isn't clear about it. Does that mean any project page or talk page, or is it just a catch for another case like the failed "Episode review" project? Is a merge request the same thing as pointing out bad groups of articles? Am I to be completely silent every time some random old redirect gets brought back, or can I show it to someone and let them make a call on it? Is that considered having someone edit for me?

Those are just a few of the things I'm confused over. Can someone ask some arbitrators to either comment here or one of the open requests for clarification? That would clear some things up. TTN (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Why not just avoid anything to do with these TV or video game articles entirely instead of looking for clarifications on what you can or can't do? Go edit other things for the six months, there is no shortage of work to be done. Why even push the issue? If you keep that up, it looks like you're angling to get around the Arbitration to push a personal agenda, which is not acceptable. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom finding didn't come out of the blue. This thread is a pretty clear violation of the letter and, presumably, the spirit of your ArbCom restriction. You are free to request a clarification, but you need to respect the editing restriction as written until such time as a clarification is approved. Lawrence is absolutely right - instead of pushing the envelope of the letter of your ArbCom restriction, it would be better to accept its spirit. I think a block would be entirely justified under the ArbCom remedy. That said, I can accept - barely - the ignorance-of-the-law defense here. However, if you do anything in article- or project-space, including project talkspace, vaguely resembling soliciting, requesting, or planning merges, deletions, etc from here on, you don't have an excuse. If you're not sure whether something might violate the letter of the ArbCom sanction, then don't do it. MastCell  15:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Some editors take the wording "to be interpreted broadly" as a de-facto topic ban for TTN. If that was arbcom's intention, then arbcom should say so in a clarification. If it wasn't, then there is no problem with TTN's pointing out terrible groups of articles. If others agree with him, then he is doing no evil, and if they don't, then TTN can't do anything about it and the status quo remains. There already are two requests for clarification in the TTN matter, but arbcom are taking their time, so it's not like this is their priority. If it is our goal to improve the encyclopedia, TTN shouldn't be punished for stating "I am bringing up a group of ridiculously inappropriate articles to get the ball rolling on cleanup, does someone want to take a look at it". – sgeureka 15:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not right. There is no deadline. Again, TTN needs to respect the current wording of the sanction until it is amended. He can't disregard it and then blame ArbCom for being too slow to address his request for clarification. The encyclopedia will not go to pieces if he has to go a week or two without pursuing this pet project. MastCell  16:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

He has stayed within the limits of the language. I certainly don't interpret the ban on project pages while allowing talk pages to ban discussion on the talk page of the Sonic wikiproject. He's already suffered a one-week block from admins stretching "broadly interpreted" beyond all reasonable limits. If Arbcom wants to come back and say "really, we just meant that TTN should just shut up about television", then that's what they should say. Until then, a block is unwarranted.Kww (talk) 16:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Sanctions: is it time for the community to do this?

As TTN's actions (and those of his co-worker group) with these TV and fiction articles consistently and endlessly generate reams and reams of drama, conflict, and Arbitration cases, perhaps the community should simply develop custom sanctions in regards to them in place of or beyond what the Arbcom has put in place. The community has supreme power to limit internal disruption via such means, if they deem it required. Does the subjective benefit of TTN and company eliminating fiction articles and content outweigh the massive historic disruption they cause? If the answer is yes, then TTN's case needs to go immediately back to Arbitration for clarification. If the answer is no, the community needs to establish binding limitations on these actions to stop disruption. Which is it? Opinions of uninvolved editors on this matter will carry more weight. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

What's key is "the co-worker group" that aids him in causing these problems. It's not just TTN. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

If sanctions are determined then it needs to initially apply to TTN, and as he's stated before that he will e-mail his needs and desires in regards to fiction articles, the same sanction (if it comes to pass) would need to apply to any other editors that cause similar disruption via fiction articles. I have no opinion on the content either way, but like many, many people I believe we are quite sick of seeing disruption from any sort of "crusade" campaign on this website, which is what this has apparently become. Does the disruption outweigh the optional actions they are taking with these fiction articles? Do we want to allow ongoing meta-disruption and RFARs and ANIs over actions that may or may not be supported content matters? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that you have misidentified the cause of the disruption. The people that keep objecting to efforts to get rid of articles that can never be brought up to standard, and start RFARs, ANIs, etc., need to be blocked for disruption a few times. Once the message gets across that if you have written a crappy article, whining at Arbcom that TTN or Eusebeus or Sgeureka is being mean to you won't bring it back, most of this drama will go away. The reason this problem cycles and cycles and cycles is because one side of the dispute has learned that whining sufficiently loudly will be rewarded. Punish the whining, fix the problem.Kww (talk) 18:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, this is all subjective. The question is as I said (and I'm a content guy more than a policy guy, if you can't tell from my user page, so that for what its worth) does the amount of disruption from the methods used to work on these fiction articles outweigh possible subjective benefit from the actions of TTN, Eusebeus or Sgeureka? If the answer is the disruption is greater, sanctions are likely in order. If the answer is the benefits outweigh the disruption, then this needs to be hauled before the AC for an ironclad clarification that no-one can dispute. With something so subjective, the views of involved parties or their partisans need to be de-valued for objective outsiders to decide. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 18:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd consider the folks continually attempting to take TTN down to be a magnitude more disruptive then TTN's activities. SirFozzie (talk) 23:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Pixelface is correct, the restriction clearly says he is not to request a merge or any of the other procedures. These edits are then a violation. But since I did the first block, I'll leave it to someone else this time. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Serious question, Rlevse: what does He is free to contribute on the talk pages mean to you? Why did Arbcom so specifically set up different guidelines for article and talk space if they intended to block him from making similar requests in talk space? Kww (talk) 00:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Kww's correct, here. There is no reason for any action to be taken here. SirFozzie (talk) 01:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It then becomes like canvassing. I just can't believe in the face of blocks, bans etc. that someone can be so single-minded. ...and here we go again, along the trenchlines...it is still skirting the borders of the ruling to continue with the same outcomes. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Bulbasaur

In addition to requesting a merge of articles related to television characters at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games on May 11, on May 8, 2008 TTN requested at Misplaced Pages:Fiction/Noticeboard that the Bulbasaur article, another article about a television character, be redirected — which is another violation of the ArbCom ruling. The full thread is visible here (oldid) --Pixelface (talk) 05:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait, why on earth would that be redirected? It's heavily sourced, independently notable, and these character articles have been brought to Featured Article status (even Main Paged!) in the past. That makes absolutely no sense. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 05:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly - it is one of the most popular half dozen or so pokémon.Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I am reopening this, because A) There was no reason for this block (the ArbCom result says he's fully able to do this on the talk pages), and B) Two weeks for a minor infraction if it WAS an infraction is completely over the top. SirFozzie (talk) 02:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

So you're saying the phrase "any edit to an article or project page" means project talk pages are not included in the prohibition? If that's the case, is WP:FICT/N a talk page? You're saying TTN is free to initiate threads and request deletions, merges, or redirections of TV episode articles or TV character articles on any talk page anywhere? --Pixelface (talk) 13:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

That was what most of us understand the ruling to mean, yes. -- Ned Scott 05:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

What part of "TTN is prohibited for six months from making any edit to an article or project page related to a television episode or character that substantially amounts to a merge, redirect, deletion, or request for any of the preceding, to be interpreted broadly. He is free to contribute on the talk pages or to comment on any AfD, RfD, DRV, or similar discussion initiated by another editor, as appropriate." is hard to understand? A request for a redirect is clearly a breach of this restriction as Vassyana rightly commented. Catchpole (talk) 07:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You need to parse that sentence a little bit more carefully. Substantially amounts to a merge, redirect, deletion, or request for any of the preceding is a qualifier that applies only to any edit to an article or project page related to a television episode or character. The restriction does not apply to talk pages, because they are neither articles nor project pages. I think that logically the fiction noticeboard is a talk page, but I grant that it is a project page, and falls under the injunction. I've added a request for clarification of that point to my existing request for clarification. Kww (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)