Misplaced Pages

Apologies Schambo - I didn't realise you created it. But that means you can fix it, no?? Sarah777 (talk) 13:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah777, I'm sorry: I have just examined Template:Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County more closely, and you were quite right to blank it ... so I have now blanked it again. See discussion at Template talk:Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County, where we could do with your input! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Least there be any confusion folks - I have no issue whatever with DL having a County template - just one that fits. Sarah777 (talk) 13:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

VintageKits

Interesting ... User:Giano/Terms for VK's return Didn't think that admins had this sort of power.... --Bardcom (talk) 19:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

They do, and you are now banned for even questioning it.... I jest of course. Giano isn't an admin, all he has done is propose a set of conditions, under which Vk may be permitted to edit again, for the community to decide upon. You are free to wield the same power, should you have a proposal. Rockpocket 22:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I was just going to point out that Giano isn't an Admin - I think he is trying his best to get Vk back - you can see the strength of the opposition. Sarah777 (talk) 13:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism at Clonmel

I've tried to fix the intrusion as I believe you have too. Could you have another look please at Other People Of Note . My attempts to edit seem to delete whole tracts. Thanks.RashersTierney (talk) 23:32, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Tweaked it a bit and removed the vandalism....it seems OK now. Sarah777 (talk) 23:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks ! Personally, I'm not so cracked about that flappin' bird though RashersTierney (talk) 00:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It flaps meaningfully....Sarah777 (talk) 00:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't we all...RashersTierney (talk) 00:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

British Isles

Hello Sarah. Normally I have a sense of humour about such anon-editors as 86. But, his interesting suggestion at BI? was a bit overboard. GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello there, never really involved myself in the debate over the British Isles, my opinion is the same as yours, but I don't think the ip's suggestion to GoodDay helps your side of the argument. --Jack forbes (talk) 22:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting it was helpful - the injunction was obviously in breach of WP:CIVIL - but the observation re British Nationalists (though I think it wasn't aimed at G'Day) struck me as being consistent with the facts. G'Day isn't a British Nationalist, I assume? (Mind you, I've never seen anyone admit to being a British nationalist on Wiki - but then that is hardly surprising, is it?). Sarah777 (talk) 06:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Canadian Nationalist. GoodDay (talk) 14:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Very good - Republican or Royalist? Sarah777 (talk) 20:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Republican; the people should have the choice as to who their Head of State will be. GoodDay (talk) 21:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

G'day - you seem to be a sturdy free-minded citizen rather than a subject. (But I've had great difficulty getting any references to subjects into the UK or "BI" articles. Oddly enough when you think about it. I'll be re-visiting that issue when I get the energy to muster a few references!)

"temp" in the Infobox for Rosenallis

What does "temp" mean in the infobox for Rosenallis? davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 00:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It means I don't know the Irish version of the name! Sarah777 (talk) 06:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Courage

Hello Sarah, I looked for the first time at the Great Britain and Ireland page and noted you saying that you doubt that Scotland would have the courage to break away from the UK. I think you are underestimating the Scottish people! Scots have, I assure you the courage to go it alone. There are plenty of people like myself who want independence, and in one of the latest opinion polls as many people wanted independence as those who did'nt. The longer the SNP are in power the more popular it becomes, so please don't assume the Scots don't have enough courage! --Jack forbes (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

That is news to brighten my day! I guess I've become frustrated at seeing the Scots dip their toes in the Waters of Freedom so many times down the years only to pull back from the edge every time! As we Irish have discovered - it is a whole lot better outside the cage....Sarah777 (talk) 09:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Zenit

Like I said there, Sarah, I sympathize with the fact you are frustrated with certain elements of wikipedia. I in the past have had similar frustrations. But English football's small problem with racism and the bigger Hiberno-Scottish problem with sectarianism have absolutely no bearing on Zenit, nor on the truth of claims in some of the media that Zenit have racist fans. If you wanna accuse any of the media of hypocrisy related to the state in which they work, that's an argument you should have with the individual journalists or else vent about it on a forum or among your friends. But it's not relevant to the content of this article, which is what its talk page is for. You'd also be better not appearing to seize every opportunity to bash the "British", as it is unlikely to make your editing experience more fulfilling nor to the point make anyone else's And just so I'm clear, this is not an admin warning or anything. Just counsel from a fellow editor! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW, Dbachmann is an admin and actually one of the best. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that but I fear I disagree with almost everything you've said here.

• I don't regard British football racism as merely a "small problem" - it is a large problem.
• My comments have everything to do with the Zenit article; we must be consistent about what is put into such articles, whether Russian or British.
• I don't "seize every opportunity to bash the British" - but seek out and try to remove British or American POV that isn't consistent with WP:NPOV; which is what we should all do, surely? (And British pov is rather a greater problem on English Wiki than Russian pov, for example. For obvious reasons).
• If certain people conditioned by a lifetime of living the Anglo-American paradigm choose to interpret elimination of British pov as anti-Britishness rather than anti-pov and support for WP:NPOV then all I can do is try to educate them.
• "If you wanna accuse any of the media of hypocrisy related to the state in which they work, that's an argument you should have with the individual journalists". Hardly, when some folk are trying to use their propaganda to insert claims of racism selectively into only "foreign" clubs.

Again, thanks for your concern - but I'd ask you to try and look at this issue from a neutral pov. Your downplaying of British racism signals to me that you are not really able to adopt a neutral position in this case. Sarah777 (talk) 01:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, if D-man is one of the best it confirms my worst fears about the Admin class. Sarah777 (talk) 01:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't regard British football racism as merely a "small problem" - it is a large problem.

All racism I guess is a large problem, but most of the worst racism is gone from English football and England is not regarded as a problem country.

Reply - Clearly, as stated, that is not a view I'd share or which I believe is based on the facts.

My comments have everything to do with the Zenit article; we must be consistent about what is put into such articles, whether Russian or British.

Think you should read the journalism concerned. Zenit's alleged problem is of a different degree than anything any western European countries have had in my adult lifetime. Pointing out that English clubs have had or have some racism problems is irrelevant. All western European clubs with large fan-bases have racists. Making it "British" versus "Russian" misunderstands the context, ignoring the subtleties (this appears in the French and German media, as well as in Russia!) and ignoring the fact that UEFA actually commented on it. As far as I know, Swizerland is not in Britain and UEFA is not run by a bunch of English nationalists. You see, this is where such a conversation would lead, Russia good/bad, "Britain" good/bad. Not helpful.

Reply - Lots of things about Rangers supporters appeared in the media after they trashed Manchester and stabbed a Russian. I guess it suits your pov to downplay the British racist and hooligan problem.

I don't "seize every opportunity to bash the British" - but seek out and try to remove British or American POV that isn't consistent with WP:NPOV; which is what we should all do, surely? (And British pov is rather a greater problem on English Wiki than Russian pov, for example. For obvious reasons).

I don't think you can honestly deny that you appear to do this. There are better ways to balance different "national" perspectives, where you allege they exist, than by bashing everyone with a certain passport, which you appear to do.

Reply - If there are "better ways" why is Wiki such a cesspit of British pov? That wasn't my doing. So I guess the "better ways" don't work.

If certain people conditioned by a lifetime of living the Anglo-American paradigm choose to interpret elimination of British pov as anti-Britishness rather than anti-pov and support for WP:NPOV then all I can do is try to educate them.

What you call the "Anglo-American paradigm" is the middle ground of "moderation" upon which the social order of English wikipedia is based. Calling it that may decrease your respect for it, but it is nevertheless essential. Thing is, if everyone believed they were the sole bearer of the truth and went around going against the discourse community, there'd be no way for this place to function. Misplaced Pages is not the place to challenge or change usage in the English language or move the middle ground of mainstream society. This is an encyclopedia. There are a number of things in this paradigm that are annoying, the British Isles maybe for you and many other Irish people, other things for me, but you need to reach a certain level of acceptance - or rather, tolerance - in order to function here as a good editor. This is a community of humans. You depart from the mainstream far enough and often enough, you'll get ostracized. This is natural. But don't glorify too much in this, happens to the nuts as well as the prophets. ;)

Reply - What I call the "Anglo-American paradigm" is anything but a "moderation"!!!. It is a middle ground amongst the 4% of global population that make up the UK and America. Classic example of parochialism and conditioning! And Wiki isn't a "community"; it is many communities at best. "You depart from the mainstream far enough and often enough, you'll get ostracized." As I said, I am the mainstream.

If certain people conditioned by a lifetime of living the Anglo-American paradigm choose to interpret elimination of British pov as anti-Britishness rather than anti-pov and support for WP:NPOV then all I can do is try to educate them.

I don't know if people call that anti-Britishness, so can't comment.

Reply - You called it anti-Britishness! (Amlong with lots of Anglophiles).

Hardly, when some folk are trying to use their propaganda to insert claims of racism selectively into only "foreign" clubs.

People are people. We can suspect those motivations, but in this case they have an excuse. The job of good editors is to decide in that context if the material is reliable and if so if it puts undue weight on certain negative elements. But you got the wrong end of the stick here. If all those stories were true (I suspect here they are based on truth but exaggerated), it would actually be notable, as no other European club has been noted as having such a serious problem ... hence why the Zenit fan there is annoyed by it. Think of it this way, there are probably Basque speakers in every EU country, but in Spain and France, there are a higher proportion of them so that it is sufficiently notable to be mentioned in the Spain article. Not in the Ireland or Scotland article though.

Reply - Refer to the cover of Ranger's British fans in the global media as I have mentioned. I recall the San Francisco Chronicle (fairly typical) said lots about British football thugs and zilch about racist Russian ones. To give but one example.

Well, if D-man is one of the best it confirms my worst fears about the Admin class

I doubt this approach is ever gonna yield results for you. Seriously! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

That rather depends on what results I am striving to achieve, dunnit? But of course as improving the project is my only goal I would calculate some minor achievements already. Sarah777 (talk) 02:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

. I guess it suits your pov to downplay the British racist and hooligan problem.

Lol. You really don't know me.

It is a middle ground amongst the 4% of global population that make up the UK and America. Classic example of parochialism and conditioning!

You've chosen to lump two states together (I assume you're not putting other English-speaking countries like Australia, Ireland, etc in this) and call anything you don't like "Anglo-American paradigm". I have not done this, so dunno why you'd continue to forward an argument to be based on it. I think the absurdity of this construct would come across more if you ever tried to illustrate it with a concrete example.

Lots of things about Rangers supporters appeared in the media after they trashed Manchester and stabbed a Russian.

Yes, Sarah, once again, your point? It has an article, 2008_UEFA_Cup_Final_riots.

You called it anti-Britishness!

Not in this universe I haven't.

As I said, I am the mainstream.

Well, you'll discover yourself the truth of that eventually.

Refer to the cover of Ranger's British fans in the global media as I have mentioned. I recall the San Francisco Chronicle (fairly typical) said lots about British football thugs and zilch about racist Russian ones. To give but one example

You've missed the point entirely! I think you probably have to read my comments more carefully. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, I completely agree with you that the allegations of racism against Zenit do not appear to be well founded and should not be inserted in the article. On the other hand a long discussion about treatment of the religious minorities in the Great Britain is not needed on the talk page of a Russian football club. It does not help much and easily deteriorate into personal attacks and incivility. I have archived the discussion please do not continue it there. Alex Bakharev (talk) 02:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Cool Alex - just watch them though. Now Deacon, (see Alex agrees with me and he's an Admin) I think YOU have missed the point entirely. It is that to the world outside, British football is far more identified with hooliganism and racism than Russian football is. The irony of this appears to have escaped both yourself and the British meeja hacks. As for "you'll discover yourself the truth of that eventually" - I've got news for you - I already have. And I'd include most Australians, Canadians and NZ folk - but not most in Ireland. We are the only country where the natives regained control - hence our better perspective. Sarah777 (talk) 02:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Zenit 2

Alex did well to archive it. Anyways, I don't know what you think I'm arguing, Sarah. You are not correctly identifying where I am coming from. I don't care about "British hooliganism" nor do I have any real opinion on the prevalence of racism at Zenit, just interested that the article holds to WP:UNDUE and verifiability, and (here in practice) trying to get you to stop introducing disruptive irrelevancies onto talk pages. BTW, I have not found Irish people to have any perspective on the world greatly divergent from the rest of the English-speaking world, except on the issue of naming the British Isles of course (and I am far from convinced this is mainstream even in Ireland). The factory workers of China, the Yanomamo horticulturalists and pygmies of the Congo forests probably don't have anything to say on it at all. And btw, Scotland is not identified with hooliganism (consistently awarded by UEFA and FIFA for its good behaviour), England might be (as is Holland and Germany to lesser extents), a point very well known to people who actually follow football and a point you seem to have missed in desire to go at this in this way. And as I said to the user who brought it up, Scottish journalists weren't reporting this. For your information, for all your love of making things "British", the amount of overlap in football journalism between Scotland and England is virtually non-existent (because of separate newspapers and separate leagues and national teams), except the websites of certain UK wide media organizations (who normally cover separately in paper and tv but not online) ... which is another reason the conspiracy and media stuff is just absurd. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do you keep referring to a "conspiracy" when I have never claimed there is any such thing? Monkeys don't need to conspire to swing from the trees - they just do 'cos they are monkeys! That's how these things work. You seem to be questioning the existence of a nation called Britain - or a thing called Britishness - which I find interesting. (I guess would too if I had to live in the place!) So I don't "know where you are coming from"? - it doesn't really matter - I deal with arguments not motives; though I may of course note motivation. I'd also have to quibble with your characterisation of Irish pov; everyone has different views on everything but opinion polls clearly show huge differences between Ireland and the Anglo-world re for example, the invasion of Iraq where we were at the far "anti" end of thew Western spectrum and the Australians, Americans and British were part of the invader-force. Despite all the marches etc when the war started a very large majority of British people supported the murderous aggression; it was opposed by 85% of the Irish. A difference of perspective borne of the experience of the transcendental evil of British Imperialism. And, of course, in that we were at one with the mainstream, moderate international opinion. (Though I know Anglo-hacks often define the "International Community" to mean the Anglosphere plus a few hangers-on - but in the real world it isn't - its the mainstream of the other 6 billion). Sarah777 (talk) 13:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, I think the reason there is such a divergence Between Irish and "British" opinion on the Iraqi invasion is the pravda like reporting in the media, and that includes the Scottish media. You have heard the saying "don't believe everything you read in the press"? Well, I'm afraid there are a sizeable amount of people that do. The Pravda like reporting in the Scottish press is so bad you would have to see it to believe it. Just one small example, before the elections, Alex Salmond and the Scottish Labour leader Jack McConnell had a debate on tv in which Salmond won every argument and had McConnell tied up in knots. What happens? Next day the press report that Jack won hands down! A blatant lie that would have made the Pravda editors proud. They would'nt know the truth if it fell on them, or rather they do but it does not jibe with their own politics. What actually astonishes me is that the SNP got into power withought a single newspaper backing them, which restores a little faith in me for the Scottish people. Can you imagine what would happen if they had a couple of newspapers backing them? You may be reading this thinking, my god, he's rambling on about Scotland again! Sorry, can't help it! :> Jack forbes (talk) 14:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Jack, I have the utmost respect for Scots who distance themselves and want no part of the British State. But as in NI - you are either Irish or British; I guess in Scotland there is a similar choice - Scottish/British - you can't really be both. To my mind if you don't support an Ireland independent of the British Crown you are not Irish. You are culturally British, even if you happen to live on this island. At least our Northern Unionists have the honesty to be clear about that. I sympathize with your difficulty with the British press; but it merely reflects where power and majority opinion lies in the British state and until Scotland leaves that state you'll be stuck with its establishment. Of course Deek here thinks the Scottish Press is totally different to the English but then I guess he only reads the sports pages! Sarah777 (talk) 19:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, you are seriously misguided if you think all "British" people supported the Iraqi invasion. Generalizing based on "nation" (or states in this case) is just intellectually flawed, especially drawing distinctions between 4 countries, England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, that are pretty much identical in culture as far as any outsider is concerned. You heard plenty of people there giving self-righteous rants similar to yours, though not being Irish they attributed their presumed moral superiority to things other than Irishness or "not being an Anglo". As for Britain being a "nation", well, that's up to the individuals as such. Plenty of "sources" claim "Britain" is not a nation, so it's a POV thing. But some people, like yourself, think it is a nation. For my own POV, nations are just made up ways of classifying human beings and pretty daft ones at that, though that doesn't stop me, irrational as I am, being proud of being Scottish and Irish. Nonetheless, nations are one of the banes of every good historian's existence, and nationalists with no respect for wikipedia's neutrality standards are the banes of the good editor here. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear - I never said "all British people supported the Iraqi invasion". In fact I went to some length to explain exactly what I mean. The people in the UK were in favour of butchery in Iraq by a substantial majority - as was their Parliament; the people of Ireland were massively opposed. Fact. Live with it. Reality bites.

"pretty much identical in culture as far as any outsider is concerned." So what? I'm pointing out that contrary to the pov of British and other "outsiders" it isn't, in fact, the same - there are significant political differences based on historical experience. That's why 70% Brits supported (initially) the murder in Iraq and 85% of Irish opposed it.

And don't be so presumptive of the ignorance of these "outsiders" - see the vast number of countries where folks attitude changes when you explain that you are Irish, 'not British - it ain't just the Irish detest British Imperialism.

I take it from your piffle about "plenty of people there giving self-righteous rants similar to yours" that you are one of the large majority of British folk who supported the invasion; just as I was one of the overwhelming number of Irish people opposed. It's the "British" thing that puts warmongers in a large majority in the UK and in a tiny minority in Ireland. Cultural difference you see. In fact it is a cultural chasm, as the disputes here over attempts by good editors to remove the pov of British and American Nationalist editors, with no respect for wikipedia's neutrality standards, clearly demonstrates. Sarah777 (talk) 18:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Listen, Sarah, if you wanna preach divisive inflammatory rhetoric, doing it to me is a complete waste of your energy. In the 21st century among an educated audience, it is probably a complete waste of your energy more generally. Basically, because I object to and am trying to improve your reasoning and your methods, you've been consistently labeling me everything at the opposite end of the political spectrum from yourself (Deacon must believe in black if he denies white ), and profiling yourself as a tendentious editor on some kind of crusade. You need to be more sophisticated than that, and recognize what wikipedia is about. You've guessed my background and opinion correctly on no occasion. If you wanna see the whole world divided neatly into the imperialists and the oppressed, perpetrators and victims, Irish and Anglo-blah-blah, there's little I can do about it other than try to guide you away, but you're gonna have to take this on board for yourself through your own intellectual growth. And btw, if there is anything like a trend, and there are a bulk of exceptions, it's that people tend more often than not to follow the leadership of their governments, and that the UK has to manage its diplomatic interests more pro-actively, esp. with regard to its status and its relationship with the USA. I would regard the idea that Tony Blair and such conducted that war for the sake of imperialism as slightly childish, though I admit I'm not psychic. The idea you have, that there is some special difference because the Irish people have a more developed glorification of historical victimhood may or may not be correct, but that's too dodgy an assertion to be made without being fully fleshed out in a paper or a book. Off the top of my head, it certainly doesn't make sense of the regional statistics within the UK, nor why Poland (actual historical victim country of imperialism), but say not France (historical perpetrator of imperialism) supported the war. However if "evil British" and "saintly Irish" is as prominent as a duality in your own thought process as it is in your public assertions, it doesn't surprise me that you would think like that. Sorry, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Fond of straw men, aren't you. I never said the Irish were "saintly". I said they had a different perspective based on history - not a very radical notion; more stating the bleedin' obvious. You obviously like to pretend that facts which don't fit your confusion must be denied! Despite your denials I reckon I got you sussed - y'know - if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck etc. Regardless, your statements are soaked in Anglo-conditioning. And don't flatter yourself - my interest in converting or convincing you is less than zero. I am merely trying to get you to stop inserting British Nationalist POV into Wiki articles about Ireland.

Another straw man: "The idea you have, that there is some special difference because the Irish people have a more developed glorification of historical victimhood" This puerile psychobabble inclines me to think you are somewhat out of your depth here. So, for the last time (to you) I will repeat:

I said the Irish had a different perspective based on history. If you are unable to read simple English I see little point in continuing this. Sarah777 (talk) 21:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Please re-read what I've said; it doesn't sound like you've read anything from my text but your own prejudices. I am interested in trying to help you become a good user, though maybe I need to learn how to do it better or when not to attempt the impossible. But thanks, I'll add "British nationalist" to "Scottish nationalist", "Irish nationalist", "Russian nationalist", "Lithuanian nationalist", "Greek nationalist" and all the other such things "patriotic" editors of various national allegiances have called me over my time here. 'Tis an honour! Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:55, 18 May 2008

(UTC)

Add whatever you like to whatever you like Deek. You're inability to address the points I make and your focus on straw men you invent means you are getting rather boring. Zzzzzz....... Sarah777 (talk) 21:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Thought this was over! Are you adding this to convince me, or yourself? If you wanna convince me you need to do more than just make assertions! Your standard of argument here is below what I'd normally respond to, only interest is trying to help you become a good user. Appears success is a long way off! :D Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............Sarah777 (talk) 22:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

All we are saying, is give peace a chance; a song by John Lennon, who was a UKer with Irish roots (I think). GoodDay (talk) 22:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. But as in life we need the criminal to repent, the abuser to confess before there is closure. Instead they are still at the denial stage. Sarah777 (talk) 22:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps; but it's also important, to put behind the scars of yesteryear. Cheers. GoodDay (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

And we can all walk off into the sunset together! :) If only it were that simple. Jack forbes (talk) 22:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Imagine, all the people..., someday Jack, someday. GoodDay (talk) 23:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Is everything ok?

Sarah, I noticed this edit which I thought was a bit strange, especially the summary you used. Why would you add an old AfD tag to an article rather than to its talk page, and why would you mention vandalism in the summary? Let me know if you need any help or advice; I'd hate to see you getting blocked for incivility again, but it definitely looks like you're heading in that direction. Please take this as a friendly comment rather than a threat. Best wishes, --John (talk) 15:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't see any incivility - but there was no formal closure of the discussion which was hijacked by edit-warriors. I put the tag on the page to remind some Admins what a formal decision looks like; and that a previous attempt to delete this failed only 3 months ago. So I take it that we can all get stuck into new rounds of voting every 10 weeks or so? I certainly think a vote on renaming "The British Isles" is way overdue by that measure. And no; before you ask - I refuse to treat each article in isolation when they are linked to the same British/Irish dispute with much the same British pov-pushers pushers of British pov involved in each case. Sarah777 (talk) 09:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Sarah. Why were you changing islands to countries at Great Britain and Ireland? GB & IRLD are islands, not countries. Also, you seem to be getting agitated lately; what's up? GoodDay (talk) 13:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm fed up having to remain civil in the face of pushers of British pov in Ireland-related articles. Sarah777 (talk) 01:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Okie Dokie. GoodDay (talk) 14:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

619 in Ireland

AfD nomination of 619 in Ireland

I am happy to withdraw if you can find some other event to put in place, I couldn't find any other deaths or births though. Tim! (talk) 17:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't be so petty. Tim! (talk) 16:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I see you have removed the AFD notice tag at the top of 619 in Ireland. I have reverted you because it is inappropriate to remove an AfD tag for a discussion already underway. If you delete the tag, it does nothing, because Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/619 in Ireland will still be there. If you do not want the article to be deleted, then go to the AfD page and voice your opinion there. However, while the discussion is ongoing, the AfD header HAS to be on the article. The administrator who closes the discussion in a few days will remove the AfD header. So please, stop removing this tag. If you have questions about this, feel free to contact me. -Andrew c  00:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

TRAGIC NEWS!

Ireland kicked out of the Eurovision song contest - Irish glove puppet dumped from Eurovision song contest!

I blame John and the rest of the wiki-Anglocentrics. Is there no end to their villainy? Bloody Pooters! --Major Bonkers (talk) 21:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

RTE were always a crowd of puppets IMHO; so they live down to their reputation. How did Poland do? Sarah777 (talk) 00:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I saw your question and wondered about who had done well myself. This is what the Telegraph’s article says:

Other nations that were dropped included Andorra, Armenia, Estonia, Moldova, Montenegro, The Netherlands, Poland, San Marino and Slovenia, to the disappointment of fans who had travelled from the former Yugoslav republic.

The countries going through to Saturday's final included favourites like Bosnia, Greece, Romania and Russia. The others were Armenia, Azerbaijan, Finland, Israel, Norway and Poland.

Unless countries are permitted more than one entry, Poland and Armenia are both in and out of the contest now. Are you any the wiser now? I'm not. ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me butting in, but I saw my name mentioned above. You know, we should give ourselves a pat on the back sometimes; for all its flaws and problems, our editorial process is very, very good. I see brain-dead writing and copy-editing like this all the time, even on supposedly reputable organizations like the BBC, the Guardian and so on. I always used to write to the latter to tell them when they got the Britain/England and Wales thing wrong. The last time I did so (wrt the latest teachers' strike in E & W, which they had called "national"), I rather snarkily mentioned that I would not expect to get away with such lazy writing on Misplaced Pages. They did not reply. I wonder why? --John (talk) 03:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

There's something very strange about Dustin the Turkey's beak to me; it looks as though it's been made out of a lady's comforter, complete with two spherical objects for his eyes. That probably made the song a bit of a hard sell. On the other hand, he could make an alternative career as a gigolo! --Major Bonkers (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Giggle, giggle. GoodDay (talk) 14:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm. Ladies comforter....that would be a hot water bottle - I just can't see the resemblance - Mind, he's handsomer than some of the fellas I've seen off in my salad days!! Sarah777 (talk) 02:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

More kneeslappers, ha ha ha. GoodDay (talk) 17:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

N72 road

Nice picture of the N72 you got there. The part in your picture is probably one of the smoothest parts of it before Fermoy anyway. do you travel down its path often? Towel401 (talk) 00:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Very rarely - I read it is listed by some Euro-survey as one of the top 10 Irish roads needing upgrading - not altogether surprised! Sarah777 (talk) 01:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Changes at 619 in Ireland

Please do not call obviously good-faith edits "vandalism"--it's insulting. Also, do not remove AFD tags from articles before the AFD discussion is complete. As an established editor, you should know as much. Mangostar (talk) 03:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Please don't delete 20 separate articles without any discussion. That is vandalism. Sarah777 (talk) 00:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, you have now been adequately warned that AfD tags must not be removed for any reason as long as the debate is in progress. If I see you doing it again, I will block you for a lengthy period of time.  Sandstein  22:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

May 2008

Please do not delete content or templates from pages on Misplaced Pages, as you did to 619 in Ireland, without explaining the valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Please make use of the sandbox if you'd like to experiment with test edits. Thank you. Toddst1 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Please be advised this is being discussed here. Toddst1 (talk) 01:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Note to Administrators

File:Animalibrí.gif If you are an Admin please make that clear when you chose to leave messages on my page. I am not clairvoyant - and any unidentified messages that I regard as in the least bit aggressive or threatening are likely to be removed on sight without further engagement. Some Admins take this personally and then abuse their blocking powers. Don't YOU become an abuser. Sarah777 (talk) 01:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, please stop digging yourself deeper at AN/I. At least consider that you may be wrong. If nothing else, just step away from the computer for a few minutes. Note that I have never blocked you and have no plans to. But if you continue to flout policy like this, it's likely that someone else will. I know how it feels to have your stuff deleted or reverted, but it happens, and those of us who've been here a while have learned that you have to take the crunchy with the smooth, as my hero Billy Bragg once said. Please take this as a kind word from someone who wants to help, rather than an abusive Brit POV-warrior abusive admin, if you can. Best wishes, --John (talk) 02:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry John; where have I sinned against what? No incivility; I have argued my case - is that now verboten? Sarah777 (talk) 03:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, I do not have time to discuss this at length, nor debate the rights or wrongs, because I am working to a very tight deadline at the moment. However, my very strong advice to you, is to not write another word on that ANI thread or about the subject of it. Removing AFD templates is verboten. It says so very clearly on the template and someone of your experience should be aware of that. Arguing the toss is not going to get you anywhere except blocked, and then restricted from pages that you would rather not be restricted from. When the ArbCom remedy gets quoted on ANI, it is not going to work out in your favour. Rockpocket 04:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, John and Rockpocket give you sage advice. Removing AfD tags while an article is up for AfD is a blockable matter. Full stop. Regardless of whatever reason you think you have. (and the article IS up for AfD... that's not debatable) Argue the case at the AfD page but do not disrupt (yes, I said disrupt... again, removing legitimate tags is disruption, sorry but it is). So don't do that again or you may well be blocked to prevent disruption to the project. Walk away, find another way to contribute. (admin) ++Lar: t/c 12:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

OK - it seems you are technically correct on the AfD tag; but how the heck does someone delete twenty articles without any consultation; debate - anything. That took away hours of work; took twenty minutes to revert - but it isn't disruptive! Instead all we get are confused rationalisations from B Kite etc - but no censure. Something is rotten in the state of Wiki; there seems to be no relationship to crime and punishment. I have now ceased removing the tag but not defending myself at ANI; even at the risk of being shot; is a bridge too far. No can do. (Though I thank you both, and John, for what I know are genuine attempts to help someone whose actions and words you don't always 100% agree with). Also, bizarre though it will seem to you folks, I want to go to Arbcom and have the "anti-British" restriction removed. If was wrong in the first place and as enforced or threatened amounts to a bounty on my little head). How do I start that process? Sarah777 (talk) 21:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't honestly know how one would go about doing that. I don't think there is an automatic right of appeal, but I would suggest that emailing the ArbCom list with your request would be the way to start. I have to say though, I think they are unlikely to agree to it. The point of the restriction was to defuse the persistent tension that results from expressing an critical, nationalist perspective (or responding to other's edits in that framework). Even a cursory glance at your recent contribs would reveal that is still happening. So that may argue that the remedy is in effective and thus should be lifted., However it may argue that it simply isn't being enforced, or that a tougher remedy may be required. These would not be favorable outcomes for you. Do you really want do place yourself in the centre of the ArbCom radar, considering you are right in the middle of a number of Irish/British POV wars? Rockpocket 22:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the way the ANI is being conducted I don't see any alternative, frankly. Sarah777 (talk) 04:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Note from an Administrator

merges are something which is a content dispute and don't require any admin action - User:Black Kite

So there you have it folks - merge to your hearts content; no discussion needed, no consultation, no consensus - if it feels good - merge it!! Sarah777 (talk) 02:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

My comment meant that nothing to do with the merges required immediate action at WP:ANI. Black Kite 03:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well maybe you should have said that? Sarah777 (talk) 03:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Years in Ireland

Hi. I like your work for years in Ireland but can I ask you to use full references such as under Template:Cite book? 625 in Ireland for example only provides title and author for The Chronology of the Irish Annals and Irish Kings and High-Kings. We need year and publisher and hopefully city if you can provide it and even ISBN would be nice. Thanks. gren グレン 09:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

So far all the content is based on existing Wiki-articles; no Original Research involved! Sometimes the refs are not in-line and it is unclear which of several books refer to exactly which event. That's why I always link the original articles. But the referencing could obviously be vastly improved as you say - but its a huge body of work to be done for articles that appear to be targeted for extinction every few months. Sarah777 (talk) 14:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah I was going to support your 619 in Ireland article but I noticed that the only item you've listed is also listed as 618. Can you give me something which might influence my decision to support the keeping of the article?GDD1000 (talk) 13:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Ignore my above. I've lent my support.GDD1000 (talk) 13:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep there is one or two like that where two different dates are given in the sources for a birth or death. 619 in Ireland isn't the easiest one to defend when taken in isolation (and in isolation I'd let it go without much resistance) - but my big worry is that it's fate is going to be then applied to all the other "Years in" articles; see recent deletions by Mango (which apparently weren't deletions at all - they just looked that way!!) This isn't the first attack on this series either. I'm off now to look for a cliff off which to jump....Sarah777 (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

And thanks! Sarah777 (talk) 13:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I've found it very frustrating too. I've been accused of having a COI, just because I know a bit about the subject matter. Do you know what would really help that article though? If you could fins something else which happened that year. I'm reading a book at the minute which is dealing with the origins of Irish Nationalism and I'm just in the early stages between initial colonisation and the invasion by the Anglo/French. I'll have a wee swipe through it later and see if I can find anything which might help. I think it would be such a shame to have spent so much time working on all this chronology to have the work trashed.GDD1000 (talk) 14:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll search - this is where an encyclopedic entry about "619 in Ireland" would come in handy! Sarah777 (talk) 14:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Aye but where would you find one of those?GDD1000 (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I once, long ago, thought Wiki might be such a place......Sarah777 (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah, you have to find a place where you're allowed to edit ;)GDD1000 (talk) 15:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Go take a wee look now ;)GDD1000 (talk) 18:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Heh! I want to remove all diacritics from Misplaced Pages (particullary the Ice Hockey articles), but the chances of that occuring is slim (at best). So, I've a choice - do I A) Get angry & accuse a bunch of editors of being Foreign Language Pushers? or B) Go with the flow & accept I'm in the minority. Accusing others of Political PoV pushing, is only gonna irritate matters & make it more difficult, to get what ya want. It's a give & take world we live in. GoodDay (talk) 18:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

On the matters of concern to me, elimination of POV - especially in relation to Irish-related articles, there isn't any such option. Interesting article on the nature of one of Wiki's most reliable sources. Sarah777 (talk) 20:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I've never really believed there was such a thing as a reliable source. The world is full of political POV whether that's individuals or newspapers. That's why you have such a hard time with the British Isles article, there are more British pov attitudes in the world media, so you are up against it as far as quantity of sources are concerned Jack forbes (talk) 20:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

'Tis a tough road. But ya gotta remember, Sarah - for every editor you suspect & accuse of being a British PoV pushers; there are editors who'll suspect & accuse you of being a Irish PoV pusher. GoodDay (talk) 20:50, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

They would wouldn't they! But that isn't really central to my argument except as support for my central proposition. I'm not sure you little interjections are really....constructive here G'day. (Sez she, menacingly).Sarah777 (talk) 20:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Okie Dokie, Sarah. GoodDay (talk) 21:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Tell me about it Jack!! This was a key issue in a long dispute at "List of Massacres" that went on for months (years actually, but I stumbled into it via an Irish "massacre"). However while the problem is recognised centrally (kind of) Wiki takes no measures to try and produce WP:NPOV and instead gives vast power to hordes of Admins imbued with Anglo-American POV to enforce their worldview to the exclusion of more moderate and globally representative opinion. If you want to see this in action check Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents - read and be amazed. But don't comment there - as just about anything you say can and will be taken down and used against you. And everything you say will be characterised as disruptive and incivil. Especially if some editor/Admin says "F u" and you are provoked into responding "You too". Sarah777 (talk) 20:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there not some kind of saying at wikipedia that goes something like " wikipedia is not about the truth, it's about verifying a fact" or some such nonsense? Where do I find the truth? help!! Jack forbes (talk) 21:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep. No less than Jimbo himself said the truth isn't important; all Wiki does is record what imagined "verifiable sources" say. Trouble is "verifiable sources" include such as the organ I linked above and are determined article by article by pov-imbued Anglophiles and defined in such a way as to make (Truth=Editorial view of the British/America corporate media). As this pov coincides with mainstream Anglosphere pov any other view, even if held by 80% of the global population, is defined as "incredibly extreme". (Again - see the musings of the Admins at ANI) Sarah777 (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/260 in Ireland is unlikely to bring a smile to your lips. Still, has to be done. What can't be mended needs to be merged or deleted, and a timeline of the 4th century of Ireland, let alone the 3rd, 2nd or 1st, would never do. Cormac mac Airt, being a fictional person, is as alive today as ever he was and certainly didn't die in 260 AD. Toodle pip, Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Not really one of mine; I like to start with real folk even if their details are a bit hazy. It's after circa 450 I am interested in; or maybe 500. (I do notice that some editors have taken material from the annals, happily writing articles and quoting dates as if they had historical validity - only to renounce them when the incidents are extracted and added to a "Years in Ireland" article. Odd beheaviour that. Sarah777 (talk) 02:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the record will show that the main cause of the current dispute is the manner in which one editor took it upon himself to delete twenty articles from the 7th Century. Indeed, many of these dates and material extracted from articles you wrote or helped write. Where there was a quibble about the date or reality of the 'person' I generally left it out; bar old St Patrick. I added him in to rid Wiki of the snakes. Sarah777 (talk) 03:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Update 22 May

Ireland articles by quality and importance
Quality	Importance
	Top	High	Mid	Low	NA	???	Total
FA	6	3	27	33			69
FL			2	6			8
GA	1	13	63	169			246
B	30	192	436	844			1,502
C	29	208	950	4,500			5,687
Start	1	206	2,301	28,176			30,684
Stub			381	26,607	6		26,994
List		31	329	3,058		1	3,419
Category					24,204		24,204
Disambig					160		160
File					180		180
Portal					25		25
Project					20		20
Redirect		8	61	907	1,702		2,678
Template					2,911		2,911
NA				109	2,594		2,703
Other					65		65
Assessed	67	661	4,550	64,409	31,867	1	101,555
Total	67	661	4,550	64,409	31,867	1	101,555
WikiWork factors (?)		ω = 343,111			Ω = 5.26

Misplaced Pages:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Ireland articles by quality log for details of latest changes. Sarah777 (talk) 09:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Essay

Further to the ANI discussion, I think it could be helpful to create an essay that explains some of the points you are making. I've made a start at wp:nationalism and would appreciate your input. PhilKnight (talk) 14:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd be delighted to, but I'm not really a great writer I'm afraid! But I will certainly give it a go. I'm not so much a Nationalist as an anti-Imperialist; my views on Ireland's history of occupation and especially the systematic cultural and physical genocide - I have the same perspective on victims of Imperialism across the globe. And Imperialism itself is nearly always merely Nationalism turned cancerous; is a form of hyper-Nationalism whether German, British, Russian, French or American. This self-realisation seems to be largely missing in the mainstream Anglosphere worldview. Sarah777 (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, I'm making one more plea. Discontinue making Political PoV charges & perhaps the ANI will be lenient. The way things are looking now, you're heading towards (at least) a British/Irish Topic Ban. GoodDay (talk) 19:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I was asked to comment. I responded. I am being charged with political pov least you missed that!! (Not with making allegations of it). Sarah777 (talk) 19:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me giving you a little advice. You should try and hold back expressing your opinions on British POV, even though you are right in many cases. If you get blocked from Irish topics or given a total ban who is going to fight it. You have sometimes got to learn and fight your corner with a smile on your face even if inside your furious. Give your opinions in a civil manner, believe me, that will piss them off more because they will have no reason to go crying foul. Jack forbes (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Oddly, I'm not really furious. I feel like Jesus felt on the cross - y'now "I forgive them for they know not what they do" (Oooops, now I've offended the fundies!!) Sarah777 (talk) 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

You are accurate in saying you are mostly anti-Imperialist. The point is this is not the moment to go to war when a bunch of people are trying to save you. MilkFloat 23:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not "going to war" with anyone. I am speaking openly and honestly - which is the only real way to indicate respect for people. When people criticise me me - (and on ANI it appears to be open season with WP:CIVIL suspended when I'm the target) - I respond by debate. Not by calling for blocks and bans. But as I said, I'm more than willing to reasonably compromise on a list of named articles - all other Wiki activities I must be allowed the same freedom as my detractors enjoy. I sincerely wish to remain on Wiki - but not at any price. Thanks for your concern, and to G'Day etc. I'm not being hostile - just as honest as I can be. As I have one block for accidental 3RR, have never vandalised articles, never threatened anyone, never used IP contributions, not being any more uncivil than many Admins casually are, explained my reasoning behind my edits, contributed a lot and never used puppets of any stripe I have rather strong views on the fact that a Community Ban is even being discussed. But if I were too open about my feelings in that regard I'd have to include my P45 with the message! Sarah777 (talk) 08:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

And by "P45", you of course mean a pink slip. We'll have none of your Anglo-Irishisms around here, milady. Don't you ever learn? Rockpocket 09:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

See - we all tend to regard our norms as the real norm! Actually isn't it a UB40 across the (small) pond? Sarah777 (talk) 12:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope. The Unemployment Benefit, Form 40 is what you fill in when you are unemployed and looking for government assistance. Brits devised the P45 first, and then imperialistically imposed its tax documentation system on you guys. Rockpocket 21:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

And we didn't even change the name?!! Sarah777 (talk) 21:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, a 'pink slip' (or 'pink ticket') in the British armed services means a certificate awarding leave. By extension, it then comes to mean a license to do something naughty, eg: The wife's away this week-end, so I've got a pink slip to visit Spearmint Rhino. Dunno about UB40. I'll mentor you, if you like Sarah - I think we'd have a lot of fun together! --Major Bonkers (talk) 15:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't doubt that we would Bonk, but I'd be concerned you'd drop me in it as a practical joke! Sarah777 (talk) 15:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Do not edit closed AfDs.

Make your comments somewhere else, please. The instructions on the AfD page are quite simple.  Sandstein  22:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Where else do I make them? I stayed outside the box. You have suggested that editors should feel free to delete articles that were not subject to the Afd. How else do I warn them not to proceed as suggested? Sarah777 (talk) 22:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You could edit the talk page of the AFD, rather than the AFD itself. ➪HiDrNick! 22:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Either the AFD or its talkpage are a bit pointless anyway, to be honest; if there's somewhere where your comments aren't going to be read, it's on a closed AFD. You'd be better off on the talkpage of 7th century in Ireland, or more generally at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ireland. Black Kite 22:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

OK - but I put it up top because I don't really want to have to do 95 reverts. I didn't even oppose this deletion, but it was exactly such extrapolation that led to me being hammered at ANI; (for deleting an AfD tag in the first instance; then they chucked in everything including the kitchen sink). 7th Century talkpage will be too late if someone starts deleting the articles again. Sarah777 (talk) 23:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Anyone out there like to protect 95 articles???? Sarah777 (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You may have been told this already, but if anyone does anything to these year articles, it will be merging them, as per the consensus apparent from the AfD, not deleting them. There's a big difference.  Sandstein  23:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please point me to the consensus to merge all individual year articles into "century" articles please? I see a discussion on an AfD about one article, but that's it. Even then, it wasn't discussing a wider merge, so I would say that it's a slight stretch to say that a consensus was reached. Also, this issue might well should have been raised on Wikiproject Ireland or somewhere else related for a fuller discussion, to test if a new consensus had formed, involving a wider and more knowledgeable audience? Not saying the decision would be different....but at least due process would have been followed... --Bardcom (talk) 10:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The AfD was for deletion. If it was about merging I would have contributed. There is absolutely no decision to delete 95 articles. It isn't nerging anyway because all content has not been preserved. Sarah777 (talk) 23:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, where there are only one or two pieces of information in a year article, I think the 7th century in Ireland format is better - you can just scan the page for the information you want, rather than having to click on all the links to try to find what you want. Obviously, where there is a considerable amount of information, such as in 666 in Ireland, then a separate page is reasonable. Black Kite 23:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That is a matter for proper debate and decision. In the meantime, someone is deleting all the articles again. Would someone please warn him to stop? Sarah777 (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Yes, the AfD was about the deletion of one article, but incidentally, it also provided a consensus that this sort of content should not be organised in per-year articles. Again: No one proposes right now to delete the other articles, people just want to merge them. Do you understand the concept of merging?  Sandstein  23:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Then someone should propose a merge; tag the articles etc. Due process. Sarah777 (talk) 23:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No, per WP:MERGE, "merging is a normal editing action, something any editor can do, and as such does not need to be proposed and processed."  Sandstein  23:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

This is deletion and the deleting editor never proposed merge/delete. This is simply outrageous. Sarah777 (talk) 23:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No, this is not deletion, because nothing is being deleted. The articles are being merged, which means that the histories of the individual articles will remain visible. If you disagree with the outcome of an AFD, you can obviously also request a deletion review. Aecis 23:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Listen, Sarah, you've been here a long time, and I'm sure you've contributed much to Misplaced Pages, but if you make a habit of pretending not to listen to people who explain very basic aspects of our normal editing procedure to you – such as not deleting AfD tags, not editing closed AfDs or the difference between mergers and deletions – then your remaining time with this project is likely to be brief and unpleasant. Oh, and stop that reverting spree right now, please, or I will block you for edit warring.  Sandstein  23:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely

What the bloody blue blazes do you think you were doing Sarah? Even if you were right, which I'm pretty sure you're not.. going on a revert spree when you're already under everyone's eye is bloody dumb, if you ask me. I've blocked you indefintely (which does not mean permanently, mind you), but I suggest anyone who looks to unblock puts you under conditions to cut this behavior out. I expected more from you. SirFozzie (talk) 23:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

To any passing administrator, please note WP:ANI#619 in Ireland and WP:ANI#Can someone block Sarah777?. seicer | talk | contribs 23:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Why is Mangostar not blocked - anyone bother to check what he did? (Sarah777) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.15.158.59 (talk) 00:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, you can still edit this page whilst logged in as yourself, even when blocked. This is so that you can request unblocking, if you wish to do so. (The format for this is {{unblock|reason for unblocking}}). Black Kite 00:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I bothered, he was just fixing what he could say he reasonably saw as simple vandalism, as redir will not redirect. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, you can still edit this page while signed in. That is preferable than logging out and editing elsewhere. Rockpocket 00:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I give up. You guys win - what's the point; someone is deleting my IPs - that I've used here - is that a crime now? How else can I talk here? 123.242.230.157 (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

By logging in as yourself - you can still edit this page (and only this page) whilst logged in. Black Kite 00:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

So I can! Last time I was blocked from here too. So I need only use IPs on other talkpages? Look folks, this has nothing to do with Britain v Ireland - some drone is deleting nearly 100 articles that I spent countless hours building up. Nobody asked me anything; nobody left any message saying we are going to merge/delete 100 of your articles; no "merge" tag were placed and now I find folk are conflating all real and imagined sins from the POV issue to the Afd to this. I may be a bit combative - but this isn't right. Sarah777 (talk) 00:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

No, because using IP addresses on other pages is a violation of blocking policy, and any such attempt to evade the block will result in the IP addresses being blocked on sight. To add, no article was deleted; they were merged, and you have been made well aware of that many times already. seicer | talk | contribs 00:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

That is complete rubbish. Sarah777 (talk) 00:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, I suggest you either (a) submit an unblock request (see below), or (b) don't comment further or this page will be locked as well. Black Kite 00:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

• As I mentioned above, if you wish to request unblock, use {{unblock|your reason for unblock}} on this talk page. Incidentally, using IPs on other pages at the moment would be avoiding a block, and is unlikely to go down too well if you're considering requesting an unblock. Black Kite 00:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

  I suggest you wait a couple of weeks, come back and then post an unblock message. I am sure at that point you will get some support, at the moment that is much less likely. Indef may mean until you can persuade the community you are ready to return. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

See RFCU for a pending case. Comment here regarding the case Sarah777, if you wish. seicer | talk | contribs 01:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Very funny. Without using an IP I can't comment on that page. Sarah777 (talk) 01:15, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that was me. The clue is in the "Sarah777" that I signed. Thought that even yer average Admin could follow that! Brilliant dectective work! Sarah777 (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

G'night all. Me off to bed. Sarah777 (talk) 01:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

For your info, the RFCU case has now been  Declined - Alison 05:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

There was a lot of chat at the ole RCFU about whether or not I might be a "tor". If someone tells me what that is I'll tell you whether I am or am'nt. Sarah777 (talk) 14:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Sarah, they were wondering if you were using a TOR proxy to bypass your block. Tor (anonymity network). The problem with TOR IP addresses on Misplaced Pages is that they're GENERALLY (not totally, just generally) used by long term problem users to vandalize and/or continue the behavior that got them banned/blocked. I was sure you weren't, and said so, so at least on this part, I think we can just write that bit off. SirFozzie (talk) 14:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

OK. I thought it meant something...eh...uncivil! Sarah777 (talk) 15:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.' HalfShadow 17:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect...

...I think we need to get a sense of proportion here. It obviously is a bloody nuisance when one's work is summarily deleted, especially if the deletionist hasn't had the courtesy to notify the author on their Talk page. I see a number of issues here - wiki-Anglocentricism, rudeness, misunderstood remarks which are taken as rudeness, and the preservation of one's own work - which really ought to be seperated out and commented upon individually. Looking at the present morass, from Sarah's viewpoint it must look very much like a witch-hunt; I'm astonished and alarmed that from a relatively minor spark we now have an indefinite block, and this on a constructive editor. We're in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath-water, driving away good editors.

Suggestion: please can the block either be lifted or (at least) a limit be put on it, with Sarah put on a parole for the moment? The point's been made, the lesson learned. --Major Bonkers (talk) 08:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Bonk. I do still find it astonishing that 100 articles can be deleted under the guise of a merge when there hasn't even been such a proposal. I'd discuss this further on your page but it appears that would be "block evasion" and as you can see we have some serious control freaks loose hereabouts. Sarah777 (talk) 14:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. And, with lots of respect, I agree with Sarah777's point that an AfD to delete one "year" article is not the right forum to for (I was going to say gerrymander) a "consensus" that all "year" articles are to be replaced with a "century" article. First off, being reasonable, I don't see how a consensus can be tested in such a short time, and secondly, I don't see where the consensus was tested with "knowledgable" editors. Again with respect, while Sarah777's reaction to revert those articles seems OOT, think of it as a cry for help and attention, seeing as most admins were admonishing her aggressive attitude and incivility rather than trying to follow due process. --Bardcom (talk) 10:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree. I don't see this barring, blocking, tarring-and-feathering or whatever for Sarah to be a useful outcome at all. I tend to see this as tribal reactionary behaviour by the wikigentsia more than any anti-Irish Cabal, but when comments are posted like, ' "Anglo-American pov trumps the stated policy of WP:NPOV every time" is completely beyond the pale', that's a pretty unhelpful and politically ignorant turn of phrase to have randomly picked out of the ether - you do begin to wonder. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually Andy; I have stopped wondering. What we have here is an unholy alliance I fear. Sarah777 (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems that Major Bonkers, Bardcom and Andy Dingley are expressing this dissatisfaction with the turn of events which seem to have happened way too quickly and while some admins seem to just go for the jugular instead of being constructive. Deletions without any notification is unacceptable and you will notice that there are no links in any of the recent Sarah discussions to those deleted article that I can find. Sarah is generally a constructive editor and though strong minded she does loads of good word, so an indefinite block is way out of line, especially where there are many more destructive editors who get away with much less punishment. While I don't see eye-to-eye with her on everything, we need to avoid driving away hard working editors. ww2censor (talk) 14:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The block is not indefinite as in permanent, it's a "Cut the You-Know-What" block. Considering that there was general support to impose some kind of sanction previously on Sarah in a thread that was winding down previously on ANI, to do what she did is spectacularly unwise. Hopefully, we can work out a set of restrictions/compromises that will allow us to unblock Sarah and get back to productive editing. SirFozzie (talk) 14:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not expressing dissatisfaction with turn of events (it's complicated, I haven't had time to follow it all) so much as with a community that can react to a politically sensitive issue with a crass knee-jerk, then accuse Sarah of being the one causing everything. I mean, catch yourself on woman! you're hardly innocent here, but this tango has plenty more than two people dancing it. As advice to Sarah, stick scrupulously to the rules because they'll whip you for it otherwise, but that doesn't mean I think peppering pages with AfDs is helping anything. What's the problem with 619 for goodness sake? It might not be needed (As the BBC once put it, "Today there was no news") but it has never been harmful. Treating it as worse than deliberate vandalism (are we suddenly running short of that?) just cannot be seen as even-handed, even if particular editors have a history. How would you the reader have reacted to this? I know how I would, and it would be a lot louder than Sarah. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Per Foz above, I'm willing to unblock but we need to work on some sort of conditions, else we'll be right back here again. Sarah, there are enough people on here who want you gone for good. Neither myself nor Foz want that. However, it's that meet-half-way thing again, and you need to do something to allay community concerns. What do you suggest happen here? - Alison 15:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) - again...

Fozzie/Ali; is anyone going to make any comment on the "process" leading to the second deletion of 100 articles in a week? I find it ironic that I'm bombarded by folk quoting rules at me who seem to have scant regard for rules themselves. I'm not appealing the block at this stage because I'm seriously considering what point there is adding stuff that gets deleted for no good reason. I'm thinking of supplying the full list of (non "years in") articles I created to assist the deletionists in their efforts. I may put one especially tiny one up for AfD and if that succeeds I'll delete the rest myself using the current logic. Then we'll all be happy as pigs in s**t. I'm starting to not care. I'd fight the pov issue to the bitter end - but this latest issue is just depressing. Which may well be the point of it. Sarah777 (talk) 14:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I'd have to use an IP to nominate the articles and then the nomination would be deemed invalid and my IP would be zapped. Life is tough.....Sarah777 (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

← (multiple e/c) SirFozzie, I stated at ANI that a 1RR editing restriction, and a possible topic ban would be workable in this instance. Mentoring is pretty much out of the question, given Sarah's total reluctance of any mentorship, indicated by her ANI comments. But given the strong consensus to block at ANI, we really need Sarah to work with us here -- what are you willing to do to change your behavior? What restrictions are you willing to work with? seicer | talk | contribs 15:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, the information you provided has in the vast majority NOT been deleted, but merged into the various decade article. I've read the output of the Articles for Deletion debate. (I'm going to copy it here, ok?)

The result was delete but allow restoration on request for the purpose of a merger to an appropriate article (which does not seem to exist yet). After discounting some particularly inane comments ("All hail my Anglo-American pov!", "The year in question clearly occurred", "like the potato famine", "Lets start a new guideline", etc.), consensus is that events in this country and era should be covered at the century level for now (or possibly at the decade level once WP:SS requires it), due to the apparent scarcity of verifiable exact dates or even verifiable events. As soon as someone creates an article such as 7th century in Ireland, we can undelete and merge the contents there. Sandstein 22:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: I overlooked that work on 7th century in Ireland has already begun, but it was a redirect at the time of the closure. Feel free to undelete 619 in Ireland and merge the contents to the century article, to the extent that consensus there allows. Sandstein 22:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the AfD debate, that's clearly the consensus here. If you have issues where information wasn't merged into the decade articles, fine, let me know, or Ali know (or post a polite request on AN/ANI, if we're asleep, like I'm supposed to be at this time of day (grr), and we'll see what we can do to help you with that. That was the right way to go about things. Instead, you decide that you're right, despite the overwhelming consensus that there's just not enough on a per year basis for separate articles and just go willy-nilly reverting, something that quite frankly was the worst thing you could do with all the discussion that had happened around you previously. SirFozzie (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC) (signing for previous note)

SirFozzie, I already asked the question above. What consensus? What process? The AfD shows a lot of different opinions, most of which are valid, but only commented on 619 in Ireland, not on every article of it's type. And given that there were lots of different opinions, what makes one opinion into a consensus over another on 100's of articles? It's not a vote count, and no discussion or form of compromising took place, which is a key test for consensus. At all. The AfD was about a single article, not trying to form a consensus or policy about 100's of articles. This decision is very seriously flawed and I can understand why Sarah777 is upset. This is a form of bullying and railroading. And asking Sarah777 to "take a break" is just a form of trying to sweep the issue under the carpet and hope it goes away. Can I suggest a reasonable compromise to show proper process. Make a proper and specific proposal for this issue, allow a discussion to take place and allow consensus to be tested with knowledgeable editors, and then make a decision. --Bardcom (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Bardcom, I suggest you read Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2008_February_18 for a related decision on this. As for the community discussion, see this discussion on ANI and This discussion of the block I issued. I suggested a break for Sarah because I want to keep her editing at WP, but I don't want her to say something in the heat of the moment that will shut that possibility down. Even her most fervent supporters in all the discussions realize that Sarah has to bend, at least a bit here. See Alison up above? She attempted to offer mediation to try to allay the community's concerns, only to have Sarah say that she had done nothing wrong and didn't see any value in it. SirFozzie (talk) 16:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks SirFozzie. My fault for mixing two topics - the block and the consensus - let's keep them separate. Regarding consensus - I would request that you address my points on due process above and the reasonable compromise. I withdraw the remark about sweeping under the carpet above. Thank you. --Bardcom (talk) 16:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

We've already requested compromises previously, such as editing restrictions, 1RR and mentorship. The latter was rejected soundly by Sarah777 despite two administrators who were willing to be mentors, and the former two were inconclusive in consensus. If there are any more, we are all open ears at this point. seicer | talk | contribs 17:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Seicer, again, my fault for mixing topics. This is not a request for a reasonable compromise on Sarah777's block. This is a request to test consensus on the creation of a century-level article to replace individual articles. To save repeating, my points are above. --Bardcom (talk) 17:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

←This probably needs to be brought up at a more generalized forum, maybe AN to test consensus. That's all fine by me. seicer | talk | contribs 17:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

May I make a suggestion? Take a break from WP. not long term, maybe 48-72 hours. Don't even load up WP's main page. Let's get past the situation and then when the black mood passes, come back and we can see if we can hammer something out that allays the community's concerns and get you back to editing productively? SirFozzie (talk) 15:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

OK. I'm gone for 24 hours - I always make quick decisions. Not sure what "the community" is but I'll catalog my photos on Commons or something - unless Commons is verboten too??? Sarah777 (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope, blocks on English Misplaced Pages do not carry over to Commons. Just a suggestion, your wikibreak thing at the top of the page isn't helpful to the situation, would you please remove it? SirFozzie (talk) 15:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

A Suggestion for going forward once Sarah returns

Seems like we're having a bit of an impasse, from the AfD, many people think that the years articles "X In Ireland" should be merged into Decade or Century articles, and of course, Sarah and several others here have stated their vocal disagreement with this solution (or don't see the consensus to deal with these as such in the AfD).

Well, we can settle both of these at one go, can't we? Once Sarah works out terms for an unblock (as Alison said further up, Sarah has to make a bit of a concession to allay the concerns of the folks who spoke on the ANI threads, and we can discuss what those are when she comes back). Let's do it simple, RfC style perhaps. See what the will of the community is, once and for all on this.

Would folks be amenable to this as a solution, going forward? SirFozzie (talk) 22:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm good with this. It's not that Sarah doesn't have genuine concerns; she does, but it's a huge convoluted mess and quite a number of people are now embroiled in it. The problem is that 1) maybe she's not totally aware of some of the rules around AfD, merges, etc and 2) she tends to react badly when things go awry and takes the law into her own hands. Sarah - I'm really trying to sort something out here but please, give me something to work with here, rather than just pushing it back onto me ... - Alison 22:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I was going to ask to parallel the actions, but I since Sarah would probably like to participate in the RfC, I understand why asking wouldn't make sense. I agree with the suggestion. Thank you. --Bardcom (talk) 23:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Foz, can I go back to mentorship again here and make the suggestion (actually someone else suggested in email :) ) that a neutral editor be chosen/volunteer who has good knowledge of the background, and of the relevant policies but isn't "tainted" by Troubles/Great Famine matters. Thoughts? - Alison 23:25, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, works for me. SirFozzie (talk) 23:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest Tyrenius. - Berks911 (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)