Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:30, 23 June 2008

This article was nominated for deletion on 26/3/2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Work

I am currently working on this article. Please discuss any changes or additions with me, I'll be glad to see how we can improve it. Not anymore, "thanks". Format aspects and so might be inconsistent because the article isn't complete yet. There is also many information that's missing which I'll add soon. --Rodrigo Cornejo 18:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Israel

I have removed that section because it's nothing but POV WP:OR unsupported by reliable sources. Most of the Jews who immigrated to Israel/Palestine were either refugees or Socialists - please use WP:RS to prove that is was "Settler colonialism" - and indeed, up to 1977 the Israeli politics was dominated by the left. The Palestinian Arabs left as a result of a 1948 Arab-Israeli War, instigated by Arabs - again, hardly "Settler colonialism". ←Humus sapiens 23:02, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Israel

The IUSSP is cited in Misplaced Pages many times . So much for WP:OR and reliable sources. Besides, there are many sections in Misplaced Pages that contain OR and are tagged, not deleted. Same goes for POV disputes. As it goes for jewish settlers being socialist or refugees, they settled in a new land. So, they were settlers. Feel free to dispute if it's colonialism or not, but political ideology does not exempt one from being contradictory. Socialism doesn't make the jewish settlers there any better or worse - you are just appealing to the no true Scotsman fallacy. Palestinians left because the 1948 Arab-Israeli War was instigated by arabs... so next time the russian army attacks Chechenya I'll say it's every single russian's fault. There was no national military organization in the Arab Palestinian community at the time of the war, and the war efforts were mainly done by other arab countries. Then again, don't insert your POV claiming that since some arabs started a war, other arabs deserve to be displaced - that's a hasty generalization. --Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 23:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The reference you gave says nothing about "settler colonialism". The section you added is your original research. Meanwhile you have also violated WP:3RR. Please do not revert again. Thanks. --MPerel 00:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Rodrigo, please revert your emotional outburst and I'll refrain from reporting you for 3RR. We can put this aside for the night and try discussing tomorrow in a rational way after a cool off. Thanks. --MPerel 01:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Indians in Fiji

Without knowing a lot about the subject, my impression is that the Indians in Fiji are an example of settler colonialism. --Richard 16:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not OR

http://books.google.com/books?q=settler+colonialism+israel&btnG=Search+Books That claim is outlandish. It's not OR to include a section discussing IF Israel has exibited the characteristics of settler colonialism. Then again, in the newly included section it is clearly stated that it could be so, but not that it is so. --Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 21:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

As it was pointed out earlier, the content that you repeatedly reinsert is based on unreliable sources. ←Humus sapiens 21:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I repeat. Care to read the above to see that the IUSSP is cited in Misplaced Pages many times If you don't think (shall I say "believe"?) that that isn't a reliable source, maybe you should point out why. You haven't done so. Remember that there are other reliable sources apart from the Tel Aviv University --Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 21:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a good time for you to get familiar with WP:RS and other WP policies. ←Humus sapiens 21:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

"The International Union for the Scientific Study of Population (IUSSP) promotes scientific studies of demography and population-related issues. Originally founded in 1928 and reconstituted in 1947, the IUSSP is the leading international professional association for individuals interested in population studies." Does this not comply with WP:RS? If so, why not? --Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 21:38, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, have you read this? Maybe if you read it we can talk about how it's unreliable.--Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 21:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

A discussion based on reliable sources is not the same as a loose summary of the Arab-Israeli conflict which makes an allegation based on the title of this entry. Tewfik 21:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I'm disappointed a user with heavy involvement in this sort of subjects has come here to talk about my outlandish claims. Would you be so kind of pointing me to where I can get mediation from a neutral third party? Thanks in advance Tewfik. --Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 21:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to follow the process outlined at Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. I also encourage you to review Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Attribution. For the record, I said nothing of "outlandish claims"; the problem is that you've produced a summary of the Arab-Israeli conflict with no direct connection to this page's topic. Tewfik 22:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I beg to my loyal opponents to provide me with trusthworthy sources so I can write the section that has caused such a stir. If you don't do so, I will just keep rephrasing the paragraph until you become so annoyed that you actually have to do something rational about it. --Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 06:24, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Your source doesn't mention "settler colonialism". This has been explained before. Please stop engaging in original research. Jayjg 02:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Settler colonialism in Latin-America

This section needs some reworking. Two points: 1) It is focused entirely on Mexico. 2) The voice it is written in, especially the last paragraph, feels biased. It seems to be speaking in a rather nationalist/leftist/populist voice, and when talking about the various 'privileged' immigrant groups takes on a nativist tone as well. Such claims may actually be true, but the way they are stated here has no place in a encyclopedia article. I added a Citation Needed at the end of that paragraph.--KobaVanDerLubbe 00:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Exploitation colonialism

Hi, I think it's very important to write a complementary article to this page: exploitation colonialism 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 16:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

OR again

I've removed this section to Talk:

While Israeli settlements aren't widely regarded as being an effort to "colonise" the territories which they occupy, there are allegations of that practice, involving the contentious nature of such settlements. It is worth noting that a number of international bodies, including the United Nations Security Council, the International Court of Justice, the European Union, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and many legal scholars have characterized the settlements as a violation of international law, but other legal scholars, Israel, and the Anti-Defamation League disagree with this assessment. Opponents to the policy of Israeli settlements have characterized said efforts as being colonialism even though the validity of either Israeli or Palestinian claims is a matter of an ensuing controversy.

Not only is most of the paragraph not about "settler colonialism", but the sole source used, Nasser al-Qidwa, is a former Palestinian Foreign Minister making a political speech - hardly a reliable source for this kind of claim. In addition, editorial comments like "it is worth noting" are un-encyclopedic. Please make sure your sources are reliable, and please ensure that your text matches those sources. Jayjg 00:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I used reliable sources extensively, consulted scholarly sources, framed the paragraph appropriately, added citations when needed, and quoted opinions and analysis hence not presenting them as facts. I believe that now the case has been *finally* settled. Teh Original Mr. Orange (Orange juice?) 04:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Begging the question

Begging the question is a logical fallacy (also called petitio principii) in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. When there is a dispute as to whether or not the Israeli settlements are in fact colonies, and you write "the colonies known as Israeli settlements are described by some scholars as colonies because..." you are engaging in begging the question, in the bolded part. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course, as is obvious, and it violates WP:ASF. Jayjg 22:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see the point of this section. See colony.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 16:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me try again: there is a dispute as to whether or not the Israeli settlements are in fact colonies. The sentence you are adding presents one side of the dispute, according to one scholar. Since there is a dispute, we can't begin that sentence with something ("the Israeli colonies are...".) that presents the desired outcome according to that side of the dispute ("they are colonies") as a forgone conclusion. Please read Begging the question if you still don't understand. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And once again, I refer you to the Misplaced Pages article colony, complete with definition. Where are the scholars that argue the Israeli colonies are simply settlements?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 19:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I understand the definition of colony. Now, there's a dispute as to whether or not this definition applies to the Israeli settlements, and not everyone agrees that it does (If this were not the case, then instead of saying "some scholars argue that..." we'd write "All scholars agree that.. " or "the consensus among political scientists is..." - and back that up with a reliable source). When a dispute exists, we can't describe them as settlements when introducing the dispute, as that is Begging the question. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll ask you again; what scholars assert that the Israeli colonies are not colonies?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 08:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on whoever makes an assertion, it is not up to the other party to disprove the statement. If you want to assert as fact that the Israeli settlments are "settler colonies", or to claim that this is the scholarly consensus, you need to support that with a relaible source. Agood starting point would be to source it to someone a little more prominent than the current obscure scholar who is being used to make a somewhat convoluted arguemt which does not even directly say the settlements are colonies.

SA relationship

This article is about settler colonialism - not about South Africa's or Israel's nuclear programs, or international relations. Please include only material related to settler colonialism - other stuff is irrelevant, and will be removed. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

re :

I concur with Canadian Monkey. Writing of colonies or heavily-colonised West Bank is a foregone conclusion, while adding South Africa's UN support for the establishment of Israel and the nuclear collaboration is not pertinent to the article's subject at all. --tickle me 15:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The U.S.S.R. and the United States also supported the establishment of the State of Israel, and Israel's nuclear program is no more relevant to this page than that of the U.S.S.R. or China. By the way, this page is woefully inadequate in the latter regard, missing entirely a section on Tibet. Jayjg 22:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree about Tibet, but the fact that the only country in a continent where most of the population suffered rather than profited from colonies to support the state's formation was a supremacist state is pertinent.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 16:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

For starters, you are simply wrong. South Africa was not the only African country to vote for partition and recognize Israel, Liberia did so as well. As you well know’ Liberia was formed by freed slaves, surely that would be worth mentioning as well, if we followed you example? Secondly, you may not be aware, but at the time of the vote, only 4 African countries were UN members. Of these four, 2 supported, one abstained, and one, Egypt, a belligerent in the ensuing conflict who flaunted the UN decision and international law by invading Israel, voted against. Would it seem appropriate to you if, instead of the sentence you want introduced, we’d write something along the lines of “The only African nation to oppose the establishment of Israel was Egypt, a Monarchy under the control of the United Kingdom, who subsequently invaded Israel in violation of International law?”

None of this matters, though. This article is about settler colonialism, and the only material that is relevant to it is that which directly addresses the topic. You are welcome to believe what you like regarding the relationship, but please keep your POV out of this article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as a suggestion to improve the tone of the discussions here, could I ask everyone to focus on discussing the article, and not other editors? Often the simple action of removing the words "you" and "your" from a post, forcing everything to be written in the third person, can have an excellent calming effect. Thanks, Elonka 04:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going on what's cited, I didn't introduce the references. If you're going to make reference to POV, you should back it up.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 19:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I just did - it is POV to cherry pick one example (SA) over others (Liberia), in order to advance an otherwise unsupported view (that SA supported Israel because it was an Apartheid government). Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I was enlarging on material already in the text. I made no mention of Israel's flirtations with apartheid.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

As a reminder, this article falls under the scope of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles and can be subject to editing restrictions. As such, I am reminding all parties that if there is a dispute at the article, that is essential that things be discussed at the talkpage. Don't just battle it out in edit summaries. Thanks, Elonka 14:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced claim moved to talk.

I've moved the following unsourced claim to the Talk: page:

Such opinions have also been echoed in the diplomatic world, particularly in the non-aligned movement.

It looks like original research to me. Could someone please bring a source making this specific claim? Jayjg 22:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Where in the article was it?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 16:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Confusing paragraph

The following paragraph is found in the article:

This allegations are placed in a scholarly framework in the light that within the foundations of cultural nationalism, we can identify one vector of difference (the difference between colonizing subject and colonized subject: settler-Indigene) "being replaced by another in a strategic disavowal of the colonizing act". The national is what replaces the indigenous and in doing so conceals its participation in colonization by nominating a new colonized subject - the colonizer or invader-settler" (Lawson 1995).

Could someone please explain what the first sentence is supposed to mean, and also explain which parts of the paragraph are quotations from a source and which are not? Jayjg 22:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

1. http://www.jmcc.org/debate/06/nov/nasserqidwa.htm