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LGBTQ+ studies B‑class

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Controversy Edit (Dec 2007)

I got more specific about the alleged ethical breaches. I've spent years reading articles on both sides of the controversy, and the major issue that both sides seem to have is that Bailey seems to have cherry picked his research subjects. Almost all of the research subjects are Latina, the amount of which is not reflected by the general population of transgendered people. The races of transgendered people seem to be distributed in the same percentage as the general population. In addition, they all seem to have frequented the same bars. Frankly, going to drag bars and picking women out of the crowd doesn't exactly strike me as ethical research behavior.

That, coupled with the fact that some of his research subjects didn't know they were participating in research leads me personally to suspect that a portion of his findings stem from nightclub conversations. I prefer to stick to the facts and leave POV out of it, so I only edited the content minimally.

There's a statement (which was already there) about how on the date of a purported sexual encounter with a research subject, the "only objective evidence" places Bailey at home with his family. I'm unable to find any evidence of this anywhere, but I have left it in hoping that someone else may have some insight. I have been unable to find anything that puts a specific date on this alleged encounter, nor any evidence supporting or refuting it (other than Bailey's own statements). I don't feel that it's a particularly good passage, but I left it in until I can find sufficient amounts of reference on this. Glamrockboy (talk) 14:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I think we disagree here about the meaning of research. Would you expect a different approach from a newspaper reporter? That is, if (name your favorite journalist) met a handful of people, said "I'm writing a book about transsexuals, and I'd like to get your views," and they answered question after question after question on the subject, would you claim that then publishing a book which (in part) presents the information from these interviews was horribly unethical?

What if it was a blogger instead of a printed newspaper? Or just an author who writes nonfiction books instead of someone with an official press pass?

The issue is that Bailey's critics have decided to simultaneously assert two things:

1. It's not scientific research (so it should be ignored), and
2. It's definitely scientific research -- and it's utterly unethical for university professors, who have a very l-o-n-g tradition of publishing books, to use the same information-gathering techniques that we'd accept from any other author.

Bailey himself has said that this book is not itself scientific research, and the federal regulator that is charged with protecting US research subjects says that interviewing people -- like every journalist does -- isn't research. He may have hoped to illustrate some of the concepts that Blanchard's research indicated, at a level that the average person could grasp, but basic journalism is not research.

BTW, if memory serves, the source for the 'only objective evidence' is the New York Times article. The NYT was provided with copies of the evidence (mostly e-mail messages) and confirmed it with his ex-wife. If you haven't read that article, I recommend it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we disagree about the meaning of research per se, but I feel that when someone is referencing people as "research subjects" they shouldn't be offended that people treat the material as if it were intended to be research. It's also worth noting that he did treat his work as research before the bulk of this backlash started. I've seen his now-infamous lecture at Stanford where he makes fun of transgendered people as well as gays and lesbians (this was right after the book was published). He even makes fun of children in the process, which I find to be incredibly mean-spirited and uncalled for. As a psychology student, his work disturbs me greatly and on so many levels.

I would not rate his work on the level of most journalists. Based on his cavalier attitude and unprofessional lectures, I'm surprised that he even managed to secure a professorship at all.

In a nutshell:

1. I don't think his work meets the standards of the research community as a whole (and as such it's not really research)
2. I think that because it was intended to be taken as research, it's ethics should automatically be inspected
3. I don't think it should be ignored
4. I would expect any book that accuses a large group of people of being paraphilics would have a bit more "research" and a bit less "anecdote."

Sadly, most newspaper reporters would have gone with the same angle as the book -- transsexuality as a "freak thing" sell more papers than transsexuality as a "brain thing" or "psychological thing." Bailey treats sex as a macguffin for transsexuals, as if they are all motivated by sex and that their transitions are related to their sexuality. In practice, this theory doesn't hold up. Anyone who has worked with transsexuals for a decent amount of time can see that they aren't motivated by sex, but by some sort of psychological and/or biological mechanism.

I think it's interesting that you mentioned blogs. A major psychiatrist from kaiser permanente recently stated that in his experience, all black women are promiscuous and have lots of children. This was stated on someone's blog. Just because he didn't say "this is based on years of research" doesn't make it less inflammatory or less incorrect. The big difference between his statement and Bailey's is that J. Michael Bailey did originally treat his work not only as research, but as the ultimate research piece on transsexualism.

Thanks for letting me know where that NYT statement came from, it's uncited so I was concerned that it was more opinion than fact. If I find a link to the story, I'll reference it.Glamrockboy (talk) 15:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

1. ^ http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2003/4/25/psychologyLectureLacksSensitivityToSexualOrientation

You'll probably find the article cited in one of the other related articles, like autogynephilia or the Blanchard, Bailey, Lawrence theory. Some anon editor is making a billion edits to the one (that I know of) this week. I figure there's no point in cleaning up the mess until the dust settles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Controvery edits (Feb 2008)

The controversy sections in this cluster of articles seems to grow endlessly. Everyone wants to add just one more detail. Could we consider splitting them into two sections? There are actually two parts to the controversy:

• the criticism of the basic ideas, to be labeled "Criticism" and to include all of the "how dare you define the sexual orientation of transwomen according to their biological sex" and "Blanchard didn't statistically control for this factor" kinds of complaints (about any part of the book), and
• the scandal surrounding various allegations and bad behavior shortly after publication, to be labeled "Bailey Scandal" and to include nasty websites, allegations that he had sex with a transgendered prostitute, e-mail messages from his ex-wife, NWU's spineless decision to hide behind "employee confidentiality," and so forth.

What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Recent POV edits by DarlieB

The edits made to this page over the last two days or so by one editor have dramatically reduced the quality of the article and seriously unbalanced its coverage, which already included significant descriptions of the critical response to Bailey's work. So far no (zero) reliable source references have been introduced to support any of the edits that have converted this article from a neutrally worded piece on this work and its controversy into a unalloyed slam article. I would far rather have a stub, or no article at all, than such a poorly balanced and unreferenced article. Avruch 22:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

I've tagged this article with a neutrality tag to reflect my view that this article represents a fairly clear anti-Bailey point of view. I've said in the past and will repeat that I don't have a particular agenda regarding this article other than a neutral treatment of the subject (the book) and its author. This version of the article (contrasting the version from a few weeks ago) is far more critical of Bailey and represents his defence and defenders in a much less rigorous manner, a bias that I believe ought to be corrected. Its hard, though, when editors of the article decline to discuss their edits on the talkpage and make significant edits at a rapid pace. Avruch 19:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Titles

At this point, it seems reasonable to clean up the professional titles for this piece.

In the ==Summary== section, we have these four that need identification:

• Kenneth Zucker
• Simon LeVay
• Dean Hamer
• Ray Blanchard

In the ==Controversy== section, we have these four that need attention:

• Clinician Walter Bockting (add academic degree: PhD, MD, PsyD, something else?)
• Anne Lawrence
• writer and consumer activist Andrea James (are these titles at all relevant ?)
• Dr. Alice Dreger (should have academic degree, not "Dr.", and title should be here , not in next section)

Generally, I think everyone with a doctoral-level degree in a relevant field should have that mentioned, and everyone should have a reasonable (and short) title (so "sexologist" or "psychologist" instead of "The John R. Smith and Mary L. Jones Professor of Gender Identity, Sexology and Whatever Else We Thought Of").

Would anyone like to look these up? I don't, BTW, think that we need to source these in the article, but if you want to put a link after the names here in the permanent record on the talk page, then it might prevent future problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:23, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Wording

The article reads, 'Many of Bailey's critics attack not only his book, but his personal integrity.' I think this could be better worded (I'll leave aside the question of whether it should be in the article at all). Generally, one 'questions' someone's personal integrity, not 'attacks' it. Skoojal (talk) 08:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Another quibble. The article also reads, in part, 'The second section deals primarily with homosexual men...He also discusses the behavior of gay men and its typically masculine and feminine qualities.' I don't think it makes sense for the article to use both the expressions 'homosexual men' and 'gay men'. One or the other should be used, but not both. Skoojal (talk) 08:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Third quibble. The article reads, 'One of these pages - now removed - published pictures of Bailey's young children labeled with obscenities and vicious personal attacks.' Setting aside the accuracy of this description of the website in question, I doubt that the word 'vicious' should be there. Calling something 'personal attacks' is such strong language that adding the 'vicious' qualifier to it hardly seems necessary. Calling something 'vicious' looks more like making a moral judgment than stating a fact. One can make whatever moral judgments one likes, but surely it's unwise to present them in articles? It smacks of self-satisfaction. Skoojal (talk) 08:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Fourth quibble. The article reads, 'The text above the pictures reads " Let's replace women in my community with a couple of random photos and see if Baileys words and theories seem as academic ."' Surely past tense should be used here? Skoojal (talk) 08:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Fifth quibble. A section of the article is titled, 'Concerns about academic and intellectual freedom.' This could probably be changed to something shorter and more concise; it sounds grandiloquent. Skoojal (talk) 09:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that those things need work, and leave it to you. MarionTheLibrarian and I have an agreeement to not touch it. Dicklyon (talk) 14:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

That is correct.

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 15:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I will change most of these things shortly; in my view, even referring to 'personal attacks' here is unnecessary and gratuitous. Obviously labelling pictures of someone with obscenities is a personal attack; there is no need to spell out the obvious. Skoojal (talk) 22:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I've now done what I said I'd do, and I will consider whether further changes should be made. Anything I do to this article will be minor touching up of the kind I've already done. Skoojal (talk) 23:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

One of the additional changes I have made is removing the reference to 'obscenities.' As I wrote in the edit message, implying that someone is a prostitute may be offensive, but strictly speaking it is not an obscenity. The way I reworded this may not be perfect; if someone wants to reword it again, that's fine, so long as the inaccurate 'obscenities' does not go back in. I have also cut down on the number of times the word 'controversial' is used; it doesn't have to be used every other sentence; people get the idea. Skoojal (talk) 01:36, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Another point

The article reads, 'As part of this controversy, a male-to-female transsexual person who was interviewed for his book accused Bailey of having sex with her while she was his research subject.' This seems like a rather odd way of putting things. Presumably, if the person who made this accusation had sex with Bailey (I express no opinion either way), the sex was consensual, with both partners equally responsible. So why 'accused Bailey of having sex with her'? Why not 'said she had sex with Bailey'? Skoojal (talk) 02:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The cited source says "A transsexual woman who is described in a book by J. Michael Bailey, chairman of the psychology department at Northwestern University, says he had sex with her while she was an unwitting subject of his research. The woman also says that Mr. Bailey, as a psychologist, supplied her with a letter she needed from a professional..." I think the asymmetry comes from the idea either that he was in a position of power over her, since she needed the SRS letter from him, or that he knew she was a research subject and she didn't. She's not saying it wasn't consentual, but that it was inappropriate. Feel free to reword it to make it more consistent with sources if you feel that's needed. You seem to be doing a good neutral job so far. Here is the whole cited article, as reposted by Lynn Conway. Here is another source about it. And Conway's analysis of it, and more collected stuff in case anything there is useful. Dicklyon (talk) 04:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Titles

There's a hidden comment in ==Controversy==: Why are the critics described with professional titles but the supporters are given no identification other than their name? Do we have a standard set of titles for the untitled people in this section? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You're describing a favored tactic on this issue. The criticisms of the book are merely ideological. So, it's long been in the interest of the critics to exaggerate their basis for having an educated opinion and to minimize the qualifications of supporters. If you read Andrea James' or Lynn Conway's websites on the issue, you'll find that rarely is someone simply "a researcher." They are typically "a discredited researcher" or "a recognized expert" according to whether they agree with James/Conway.
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 20:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

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