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Archives 24 August – 29 December 2005 1 January – 31 December 2006 1 January – 31 December 2007

Scanderbeg

PLEASE stop vandalizing the page. His mom was either from Tribalda OR Muzaka family. Tribalda is 120% non-Serb. The smart ass editing to make seem that she is Serb is not appreciated. Most fo the sources stated that she was a princess, yet you made it seems as they said she was a Serb. Bulgarians, Fyrom-ans and Serbs claims her. Stick with Prince Lazar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 03:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

New Year's

Happy New Year for you too Pax! :-) I just came back from some mild festivities and, well, I'm back to Misplaced Pages. This is my first edit of the year as a matter of fact. ;-) I hope this year may be of great achievements for you, both on and off Wiki. Best regards, Húsönd 01:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes thanks! And happy new year to you too :) - Francis Tyers · 20:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Happy New Year

Ma sretna i tebi :) ali ako si sad pocnemo medjusobno cestitati, nece to dobro zavrsiti :) --Joy (talk) 01:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for happy new year but because of 1 serbian custom (death in family) for me is not possible to say that. --Rjecina (talk) 16:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Montenegro

• "Montenegro had planned and prepared unification with Serbia for more than a full century, the decision was cemented after gaining a common border after the Balkan Wars and the negotiations initiated in 1914" (???)

This is my answer why article is POV. All statements are from different documents and books.

• Election has been against Montenegro constitution of 1905 in time when Montenegro has existed (1918).
• "Načelnik Vrhovne vojne komande, vojvoda Živojin Mišić, naredio je, 16. novembra, komandantu II armije, vojvodi Stepi Stepanoviću, da generalu Radomiru Vešoviću "omete ulazak u Crnu Goru". Naredio je i delegatu Vrhovne komande u Zagrebu, potpukovniku Sirnicu, da tako postupi prema vojvodi Đuru Petroviću i brigadiru Milutinu Vučiniću, i da se "crnogorske čete ni u kom slučaju ne šalju u Crnu Goru"
• "Glasanje je izvršeno bez biračkih spiskova i bez bilo kakve evidencije o identitetu glasača i dokaza o posjedovanju prava glasa u određenom mjestu"
• "U januaru 1914. godine izabrano je 66 poslanika, a u novembru 1918. trebalo je izabrati 168"
• On 10 december Serbian military forces has started in Montenegro mobilization of 10 000 loyal man for protection of new constitutional order. Why this is majority of people is wanting union ?
• Even SPA account which are fighting on english and croatian wikipedia that vote for union has been honest is accepting fact that 18.7 % of parliament members have been put in parliament without election. How many evidence and statement you need to accept fact vote has been anything but honest ? --Rjecina (talk) 18:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Nobody question fact that vote during communist time has not been honest. Problem is that many users from our region are thinking that vote of 1918 has been honest. Do not worry I will help you write article which will not be so POV. --Rjecina (talk) 19:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

He has not been abandoned by everyone. This is best seen in revolt. I have been reading that there has been 20 000 "soldiers" in rebel forces. If we believe Montenegro victims numbers of WW I then this is around 7 % of total population. Maybe I am mistaking but situation of Montenegro has been very similar to last refendum (of 21 century). Great part of population has been for union and great part has been against union. Only different thing in 1918 has been serbian military control of Montenegro. --Rjecina (talk) 22:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I have seen article but I do not see point in fact that prime minister has been for "union". Question has been if this will be union of equal partners of Montenegro will become province of Serbia. Now you can see my problem with article because I have made changes. Yes language is bad but you will understand point. Source is 1 book for which you have given links in reference. --Rjecina (talk) 4:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

There is few question about which this article must speak. In article it is writen about Montenegro will for unification with Serbia, but it is not writen that problem from begining has been question of what sort of union will this be. About this question people of Montenegro has been in 2 political blocks. First block have been people which has supported union without condition and second has demanded sort of union or confederation with Serbia so that Montenegro will protect autonomy. In begining of 20 century leader of party for union without condition has become Andrija Radović. Opponents of his vision has united around king Nicholas.

My second point is about italian agents.Article is without questio POV if it is writen about italian agents in 1918 and 1919 but it is not writen about serbian agents which has worked on union since 1866

About Committe I will say only this (from your source book !!):"Centralni izvršni odbor za ujedinjenje Srbije i Crne Gore organizovala je tadašnja Kraljevska vlada Srbije, budući da "na teren nije bio došao u kompletnom sastavu Crnogorski odbor za narodno ujedinjenje iz Pariza"

All prisoners are collaborators:"Brojni su podaci, u zvaničnim dokumentima, koji kazuju da je Vrhovna vojna komanda srpske vojske i davala naredbe vojnim komandama sa sjedištem u Sarajevu, Zagrebu i Beogradu, da preduzimaju mjere i izvršavaju konkretna činjenja kojima će zadržavati internirce iz Crne Gore, koji su se vraćali iz austrougarskih logora, kako ne bi došli u Crnu Goru "dok se pitanje ujedinjenja ne riješi"." Similar is with king and his family.

What about 18 % of parliament members which has not been elected or about parliament of 1914. He has been dismissed by Austro-Hungary during occupation. It is funny that "liberators" has confirmed this act of occupation.

Again I must say that voting for parliament has been against Montenegro laws (another fact about nothing is writen).

In my personal thinking Montenegro population has been for union with Serbia but because of paranoid acts of Serbian goverment voting has been farse. Today version of article is nothing else but myth which speaks how people of Montenegro has made free and honest vote for union with Serbia. In reality this vote has been free and honest like similar voting in Vojvodina and Syrmia.

Until article will not speak about points which I have writen here we will edit article. In reality I have wanted this weekend to play with croatian myth of Tomislav ..--Rjecina (talk) 8:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Lets go point by point. It is important to write in part background that population in Montenegro has been divided between union with Serbia without any condition or union in which autonomy of Montenegro will be protected. Second point in that part if about agents. In book which you have writen like reference for article it is clearly writen about serbian agent which has come to Montenegro in 1866 to work on unification. If you want to write about italian agents you need to write about serbian agents !! Sorry to say but about this agent stuff discussion is not possible if we want neutral article --Rjecina (talk) 13:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Let as see 10 000 of 250 000 is 4 %. If we know that many between that 250 000 are not having voting right we can say that this 10 000 have been around 8 % (many children in that time) of people with voting right. In the end it is not important fact that it has been forbiden to king and other important members of independent Montenegro to start independency campaign. About Drljević my only question is do you want to write in article how Serbian military has allowed return of persons which has been for union and not allowed for others ?

Second point is I will add about campaign where is has been writen persons which are against union are traitors. this is more important shits of thief (Miroslav Bajramović) words in Gospić massacre article. --Rjecina (talk) 15:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes Italian annexation of parts of today Slovenia and Croatia is very similar with wish to protect independence of Montenegro. This can be real only in somebody dreams. We have passed this bridge before with question if Jasenovac is Holocaust extermination camp or not. Do we need again to ask for comments if fact which I have writen in talk page are enough important for article or not ? --Rjecina (talk) 15:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

To tell truth I have lost temper and for today I will not edit anymore this article.

Point about we agree is that in Montenegro has been great support for union, about all other stuff we do not agree and I do not believe that we will agree. Even if we close eyes all fact which I have writen are staying but you will never agree to that (federation ?, agents, exile problem, military protection). Montenegro of that time is having population in 2 blocks for and against union without question. Reading your version of article users will think that everybody has been for annexation. Article need to show both parts of population. --Rjecina (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Ulmost all University of Texas libraries old maps are having so many mistakes that nobody can take them serious. For example I will take Croatian borders on map of 1097. In this map Croatia is until Belgrade :)) This is funny because northern parts of Croatia has been taken by Hungary in 1091/92. To make long story short if we believe old maps of this university Croatia has been greater in 1097 of what it has been in 1000. Funny --Rjecina (talk) 17:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen edit warring about POV tag. For everything there is first time. --Rjecina (talk) 20:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXII (December 2007)

The December 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 23:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Nikola Petanovic

I must say, you did an outstanding job on this article, as well as Andrija Radović. --Prevalis (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Good call. I am currently in the process of writing an article on Evgenije Popović (mostly finished) and Jovan Plamenac (still in the works). What would be really helpful is if you can provide me some sources for some more information on both people. --Prevalis (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks, Happy New Year! I hope it's not inappropriate of me to ask whether you can make a photo like this one in Црква Светог Јована Владимира, Игњата Јоба бб (the photo is from this page). It would go nicely with that passage about Vladimir and Kosara in the prison. VVVladimir (talk) 20:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Not to sound impatient, but...

Croatian final results? ;) —Nightstallion 20:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Srećan Božić

...Sve najbolje!!! --Prevalis (talk) 03:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey man

I can't say I know much about 13th century Serbian phonology so I'm not sure if I could do it justice. If you want me to give an IPA for the current pronunciation I could, but I'm not sure if this is what you'd want. - Francis Tyers · 07:06, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Re:SPE2008

They could fall into promotional work fair use but you will have to explain it or Misplaced Pages will just delete them. --Avala (talk) 18:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

New faction in Slovenia

Three deputies left the Slovenian National Party and formed the Lipa (lime or linden) faction in parliament -- worth an article yet? ;) http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=3173046 —Nightstallion 21:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Homo Sapiens

In begining my thinking has been why are you loosing reputation in stands which are simple speaking nationalistic POV (Jasenovac Holocaust Extermination Camp, Podgorica Assembly) , but in the end my conclusion is that you are nothing more or less but wicked (evil) Homo Sapiens. When I say that I say that about all Homo Sapiens because they are willing to harm other members of his species (or other species) for personaly profit, for pleasure to make pain or because of ideology. Because of mutation members of my species are little different in physiology and very different in psychology. Modern medical science is saying for members of my species that we are sick because of our different genes but we are living in Homo Sapiens world. Why I write all this ? After entering Croatian medical records I am happy because I know how many members of my species live and work in Croatia (mutants of my kind which are known to state) :)

About Creation of Yugoslavia and Podgorica Assembly my only comments is that people of State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs and Montenegro has wanted creation of Yugoslavia but they have not wanted to loose autonomy. This centralized Kingdom of Yugoslavia has created devils by which she will be destroyed --Rjecina (talk) 17:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

You too man! :) -- Xompanthy (talk) 19:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Montenegro Protection

I have just read through all of that talkpage and checked the IPs that are doing it. I don't think the last IP is the same, it resolves from a different country, though someone could be using a proxy from that organisation. It is protected on the version that I found it, whatever that may be. I am thinking about a semi-protection to force the user behind the ip to resurface. I will ask someone else. Woody (talk) 20:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Istvan Pastor

Official nominator of Istvan Pastor is Hungarian Coalition. --Avala (talk) 23:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Maja

has just founded her new party, For Our Novi Sad. Going to write an article about it? ;) —Nightstallion 13:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

She has just denied those claims. --Avala (talk) 17:44, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Happy New Year! and all the holidays!

How've you been? My English has A LOT improved since the course. :) --Edin Sijercic (talk) 12:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Serbian presidential election, 2008

I don't understand. How is it spelled, with or without an "I"? And maybe you should consider archiving your talk page, this one is already 319 kilobytes long.--Vitriden (talk) 16:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought you were talking about Marijan Rističević. Never mind. And as far as I can see, the capital letters are pretty distracting, and I think should be avoided unless it's necessary. But that's just my opinion...--Vitriden (talk) 18:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Kosovar Independence

Kosova will be declaring independence after the Presidential elections in Serbia. Germany and USA have made an agreement to recognize Kosova's independence and have called for the rest of Europe to do the same. Even so, the majority of European nations, including Germany, France, Britain and Italy, have been planning to recognize Kosovar independence without any objections. Apparently, only Russia and Serbia are against Kosovar independence, no surprise there, lol.

References (I recommend reading them, :D):

• Vijesti: Njemačka i SAD će priznati Kosovo
• International Herald Tribune: U.S. and Germany to recognize Kosovo independence, diplomats say

Kosovar lawmakers have also re-elected Fatmir Sejdiu to another term in office on 9 January and have confirmed confirmed Hashim Thaçi's coalition government. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prevalis (talk • contribs) 20:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Re. Montenegrin language

Don't worry Pax. I haven't been participating in the past couple of days because you guys seem to be discussing the historic aspects of Serbian/Montenegrin. But I intend to join again very soon, especially because the protection will soon end and nobody wishes the edit war to restart immediately. Perhaps I should launch that poll and ask the admin who protected the article for the protection to be extended till the end of it? What do you think? Regards, Húsönd 04:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You really like to make bad faith edits in this year ? In article which you have edited (Montenegrin language) is writen that offical language of Montenegro is Montenegrin. In article Political entities inhabited or ruled by Serbs you are writing that offical language in Montenegro is Serbian. Bravo ! --Rjecina (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

If you still believe that Serbs are not minority in Montenegro please start reading Montenegro constitution and stop making vandalism (deleting link to Montenegro constitution). I believe that you can read documents on Montenegrin language so:

"odlučnosti da smo kao slobodni i ravnopravni građani, pripadnici naroda i nacionalnih manjina koji žive u Crnoj Gori: Crnogorci, Srbi, Bošnjaci, Albanci, Muslimani, Hrvati i drugi, privrženi demokratskoj i građanskoj Crnoj Gori;"--Rjecina (talk) 16:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Službeni jezik u Crnoj Gori je crnogorski jezik. --Rjecina (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This first has been my bad. this has been funny but second question is staying because offical language is Montenegrin and Serbian, Albanian, Bosniaks and Croatian are accepted in offical use. --Rjecina (talk) 17:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

it is not possible to say that Serbian language is offical but that it is recognized.

I have been under impression of serbian newspapers. Can you please explain me why there has been so many screams in Serbia about Montenegro constitution  ? --Rjecina (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Kosovo

Hey Pax,

I've seen that you've been active within the Kosovo subject and would thus like to personally invite you to join the Kosovar WikiProject. Cheers. --Prevalis (talk) 21:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

IPA

Not perfectly of course, but quite well I’d say. ;) May I help you somehow? --George D. Božović (talk) 23:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It would go like this:

/'andrija 'ra:dɔʋiʨ/

/'nikɔla pɛ'ta:nɔʋiʨ/

/'ʥura:ʥ straʦi'mi:rɔʋiʨ/

Of course, on a deeper phonetic level, you'd have more details, such as l in Nikola being probably velarized and so on. A more accurate version would be with the pitch accents shown, but I haven't seen such detailed practice in Misplaced Pages articles on similar topics. ;) I hope this was helpful. --George D. Božović (talk) 23:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice Surprise

Thank you, Pax! And nothing less than near absolute perfection, too :). Yet I think it still needs some copyediting. Cheers! VVVladimir (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Vujanovic

will be DPS' candidate, it seems -- so if Interpol gets their act together, they may finally be able to get Milo! —Nightstallion 17:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

"To get one's act together" means to finally get going, to do stuff, to progress. I meant that they finally should charge him with his numerous crimes and indict him. —Nightstallion 19:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Poster-B2---03.jpg

Thank you for uploading Image:Poster-B2---03.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Misplaced Pages takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI (talk) 16:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I saw that your image was tagged as missing licensing information shortly after you uploaded it. You might consider using the template {{Politicalposter}}, which would provide the correct licensing for an image of this type (a piece of promotional material for a political campaign). However, I'm also concerned that the image isn't low resolution. Generally, images should be less than .1 megapixels in resolution. I'd recommend finding an image of this poster that falls under 500 pixels to a side, as an image of that size would qualify as low-resolution. Thanks, UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 18:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

RIK again bans US/UK

RIK banned US/UK monitoring again http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2008&mm=01&dd=18&nav_category=418&nav_id=281059 --Avala (talk) 21:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not nonsense

Facts about Ceda,Korac and others are maybe nonsense for you ,but not for others.Let us write facts. Bg007 —Preceding comment was added at 09:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC) BTW When you are anti-nationalist,cosmopolitan and war refuge,why you don't came back,where you came from in name of tolerrance,love and cosmopolitan opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bg007 (talk • contribs) 09:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC) You can ask for every wrote sentence in Misplaced Pages for sources. The fact about Ceda is that his mother maiden name is Mrsic.Everybody knows that Mrsic is Croatian last name,that is fact.Even croatian famous basketball player has same last name.About Korac I will put sources. Secondly,you deleted some facts ,because you don't like that facts,or you want to hide.That means that you are not objective and means that you support their political opinions. Bg007 —Preceding comment was added at 18:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC) Yeah,you want to relativise fact that Mrsic is croatian last name.Find me only one Mrsic who declare that is Serb,and I will accept your point.I didn't find anyone,so far,...Mrsic Zvonimir -Member of croatian parlament,Damir Mrsic - basketball pl.,Veljko Mrsic - basketball player from Capljina,Stanko Mrsic -player NK Osijek,...I never heard that Ceda declared himself as Serb.Jovanovic is most common Orthodox Roma last name. Korac is last name from Krajina,but his mother was Jew.Publicly,as 'former' comunist,he declare himself as atheist.Here is the independent proof ,not acusation or propaganda http://www.internetjournalofcriminology.com/Anti-Semitism%20and%20the%20Christian%20Right%20in%20post-Milosevic%20Serbia.pdf Bg007

Zastava 10

In my part of world they have started to sell Zastava 10. In my thinking this is product without future because price is 10 000 Euro (with taxes). Nobody in right mind will give this sort of money for Balkan car when it is possible to buy Volkswagen Polo or even Fiat Punto for less.--Rjecina (talk) 01:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I am sure that Tadić will win elections. In my crazy thinking possible Nikolić victory will give boost to Croatian EU negotiations, but this will not happen so we will wait Serbia ....--Rjecina (talk) 16:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Until now I have only deleted discussions started by banned users but latter I will delete more important things (for this I will need to use more time). Discussions between banned users and regular users do not exist ("legal position"). --Rjecina (talk) 15:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of banned user and normal user can't happen so all his writing and writing of user which has answered do not exist.

Have you seen map Croatian kingdoms in IX century . I have not known that Croatia in IX century is so great kingdom :))

I am not looking You Tube (never)

Independence of Kosovo is against international law but Tadić threats (today) ???

Serbian entity in Kosovo :))) This mythology how Serbs will never been minority has been one of serbian casus beli in Yugoslav wars. I see that this part of Milošević teaching has not died between Serbs. Very, very bad. --Rjecina (talk) 20:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

In my thinking Croatia has been smaller (funny).

Movie is having interesting story :)

Croatia is having problem with this Tadić words:"Zemlje u regiji znaju koji je problem i gdje je njegovo izvorište. Svako pogrešno ponašanje može donijeti negativne posljedice". --Rjecina (talk) 21:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you noticed user:Procrustes the clown edits. His name is telling everything--Rjecina (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

You are very active for retired editor :)

Discussion about Podgorica Assembly is not possible. You are interested in feelings and personal thinking I am interested only in legal argument.

Your comments on my talk page are another example of Greater Serbia propaganda. Are you really believe in statement: "Greens has taken 65+ years old Andrija Radaković mother to be rape-girl"

You need to start reading serious stuff. Not even 10-11 year old child can believe that Greater Serbia bullshit.

In legal term Andrija Radaković has been traitor during wartime. There is no need to say what is penalty for that.--Rjecina (talk) 01:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

In 1918 penalty for high treason has been death. Let say for example that Andrija Radaković has been taken by rebels and that he has come before Montenegrin court. Any judge of that time will declare him guilty and ...You really do not understand that I am only interested in legal arguments ? I am not interested in emotions.--Rjecina (talk) 02:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Answer to false accusation writen on my talk page is on my talk page. --Rjecina (talk) 15:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo paragraph

As I mentioned on the talk page, I'm not saying I disagree with the paragraph, just that it made some very broad claims without sources. I checked a lot of related history articles (but not the one you referenced) and couldn't find anything like it. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction though. Dchall1 (talk) 20:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Serbian presidential election 2008

Hi there, thanks for adding to the map. What I meant was that while the article gives the results, it would be helpful if it linked to the original source, e.g. the Serbian electoral commission or government, which presumably published the figures and also the geographical spread or local results as shown on the map. I noticed you'd uploaded the map from an official source, and the only point was that the URL of the source should be given as a reference.

Same point incidentally on the 3 Vlach parties- I can't read Serbian, and although I accept your assurance on their existence/support for Radicals, this seems so surprising to the outside reader (and I note the Vlach minority areas voted for Tadic) that it would be nice to see an English-language source to confirm that (a) all 3 exist and (b) they endorsed Nikolic. The b92 article doesn't seem to refer to all 3- though as I say I can't read it anyway! Best wishes ariwara (talk) 15:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

According to B92, Tadic enjoys a small but notable lead... And DSS-NS will not endorse anyone, which I take to mean that their supporters will mostly support Tadic, then...? —Nightstallion 17:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hungarian parties

I was wondering what was the reason for removing Hungarian parties from the support list to Boris Tadic? --Avala (talk) 11:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes but later on Pastor said all Hungarian parties support Tadic in 2nd round. I placed a link to edit summary when I added those parties. --Avala (talk) 11:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

And Otpor is now a long time gone. They have merged completely into Democratic Party back in 2004. --Avala (talk) 11:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

He also yelled that DSS supports him but they don't. --Avala (talk) 11:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:POSTER-B2-SLOGAN.jpg

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Re:Hello

You mind I came back;)? Luka Jačov (talk) 23:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Poll

This poll... doesn't really look good, does it? —Nightstallion 19:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXIII (January 2008)

The January 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Syrmia

Sorry, I just so that you reverted my changes without commenting on my questions;

• Are there any sorces in which Dragutin state would be called Kingdom of Serbia (he was just an ex-serbian king)
• Why is Dragutin's state important to Syrmia if it did not have anny common territories, and it is unsourced for its "Syrmian or other name"

Dragutin's state covers territories south of today's Syrmia(south of river Sava), are there any sources which would connect it to todays Syrmia? By the name or by any other thing? Some designations of upper and lower syrmia? Or that state's name? Because territories which were part of Dragutin's state and which are reffered as lower Syrmia, are basicly banates of Usora, Soli and Mačva... Some net sources?:)

Also if name Kingdom of Serbia is product of later historians to distinguish it from its southern neighbour, shouldn't that also be explained in the article? Ceha (talk) 06:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Claimes for the eastern areas of Syrmia should be sourced (to avoid any misconclusions:) Those are towns like Zemun, etc?Ceha (talk) 08:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

ThanksCeha (talk) 20:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

re:North Kosovo

Thanks for pointing those goofs out. The removal of mentioning KM as "capital" was sheer forgetfulness on my part--I had meant to add it to the Politics section but just plain forgot. Good eye on Nada Trajkovic, though... I didn't realize that the two lists of government leaders (the one at the top and one repeated below) no longer matched.

By the way, congratulations to your man Tadić. I certainly would not want to be any Serbian politician for the next year or so, because no matter what they try to do they'll probably have to lead during a time that won't feel too comfortable for many Serbs. That said, things will only get better. :) The Tom (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

History of the demographics of Bosnia and Herzegovina

--Territorial distribution-- There is no time frame for this, and as percentages changed during 15-18 centuries(religious changes, islamisation), something similar to this could have been only after 18th century. Because of all of this it is a little bit strange to talk in the terms of exact percentages ex. 53%.
Also before comming of the Turks most of western Bosnian territories were catholic, and as they were one of the main centers for emigrations (the other being Herzegovina, of which also the western part had more catholic) how can we speak about othodox majority in the carst regions?:) Ceha (talk) 07:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Well it is not realy clear, and no conclusions could be taken out of the title territorial distribution (no matter it commes after otoman period:) So put name tag in the title:)

Also, percentages are a bit to exact (perhaps if there are sources there would be more valid), but it is a little bit strange to see exact territorial period in a span which has more than a hundred years:)

Likeways, as it said for serbian population, it should be notted croatian presence/majority in western and southern Herzegovina, southwestern bosnia, parts of central Bosnia (around Travnik, Lašva, etc) and Posavina. Short list:)

Ceha (talk) 08:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Cool:) I've just puted scam reading (ctrl+f) and could not found turkish croatia?

Ceha (talk) 09:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you checked the sources for those percentages?

Ceha (talk) 07:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Illness and greetings

PaxEquilibrium: Hope you are feeling better after your illness late last year. Thank you again for your encouraging words and advice when I was first making contributions. All the Best. Elfelix (talk) 02:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:StefanTvrtko.jpg

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Invitation to join WikiProject Kosovo

I thought you might like to know that I've (re)started Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Kosovo to help coordinate editing and facilitate monitoring of Kosovo-related articles. I will be sponsoring the project. If you have any queries about it, please ask me on my talk page or use Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Kosovo.

If you wish to become involved, please feel free to do so - simply leave your username at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Kosovo#Participants. One feature that you may find particularly useful is the public watchlist. If you click here you can see all the recent changes to articles listed on the watchlist.

There is still a lot of work to be done on getting the project off the ground, so your help would be welcomed. In particular:

• The public watchlist needs to be populated with all Kosovo-related articles (and redirects), categories, images and templates. I've added as many as I've found so far but more need to be added.

• Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Kosovo#Recognized content and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Kosovo#Formerly ecognized content need to be populated.

If you can help out with these, it would be much appreciated.

-- ChrisO (talk) 23:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

How to make a public watchlist

Hi Pax,

It's simple enough. The templates you need to use are all listed at the top of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Kosovo/publicwatchlist - they can be used on any public watchlist (not limited to Kosovo alone). All you need to do is to go through a relevant category - I would guess in your case - and copy and paste the article titles into the list, with each one prefaced by {{pwli| and suffixed with }}. Redirects should be listed as subordinate to the articles to which they point, using {{pwlr|, and images should be listed using {{pwlimg|. If you edit a section of the Kosovo public watchlist (see e.g. you'll see how this works in practice.

If you get stuck, leave a message for me and I'll do what I can to help out! -- ChrisO (talk) 23:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Anna Ivanovic

What is the source for your edit about her family's background? Tennis expert (talk) 23:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Map

Um, I can't promise spectacular results, but I'd be happy to hear what you were thinking of. The Tom (talk) 01:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Serbian Presidential election

I guess I was quite vague in my request for more explanations. What I am looking for is what would have happened if Nikolic had won. Would the chance of a war in Kosovo increase? Would Serbia decline its invitation to start negotiations with the EU? Yes, the answers to these would be speculations, but I am sure that the candidates themselves made their promises on these topics. --Cryout (talk) 04:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject coordinator elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process is starting. We are aiming to elect nine coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by February 14! Kyriakos (talk) 20:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Zdravo

Okey nisam siguran kako se uopce koristi wiki, a nisam ni siguran je li ste vo jos uvijek ovdje. Nesta itnresantno ste napisali na jednom mjestu, zanima me kako bi mogao doci do knjige "History of slavic nations" koju ste spomenuli

pozdrav —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neznamstosamtu (talk • contribs) 01:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Guduscani

Hi Pax. Do you know a little more about the Guduscani? I have read they were an indegenous people of Dalmatia. Does that mean they were Slavonicised Illyrians, or a sub-tribe of croats? Also i;m trying to compile a picture about all the different slavic tribes in the balkans. I have quite a bit about those in greece and Bulgaria, but not so much in northwestern Balkans. I know Slavs lived in Pannonia and Transylvania: did they have specific tribal names?

Also: i read an interesting idea, that 'Serbs' and 'Croats' may not be a distinct tribal ethnos, but merely ruling clans amongst Slavs. Hxseek (talk) 07:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You're right. I have been reading a bit recently. I wanna redo some of the balkan articles, esp Serbian history. Because there is very little mention about early hsitory- the article statrs off in the 12 th century. I have found out quite a bit of info about early Vlastimirovic Serbia. I hope to add it soon.

Any way: as i asked earlier- do u know of any maps/ info of 700s AD Balkans with all the different Slavic tribes/ ""Sclavinias: in the Balkans. I know a lot in the greece/ macedonia area, but not many in western Balkans. Hxseek (talk) 22:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

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Desi ti

Desi Pixie?

Jel si ziv?

Pozdrav iz Tivata mom starom drugu

03:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC) Evergreen Montenegro1 (talk) 03:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Pixie - sto je s onim Panonian ??? Odo ahhhhhh Evergreen Montenegro1 (talk) 04:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Knjiga

Pa korisnik "HolyRomenEmperor" ili nesto, je spominje u okviru clanka na engleskom o Kapetanu Gradascevic. A kada sam pritisnuo na taj korisnik, prebacen sam na vas korisnik. Ne da sam skroz siguran je li ste vi taj korisnik nov sam ovdje. "History of slavic nations 1912" o gradascevicu i njegovom boju na kosovu...

have some info that you could add here:

"Husein led a 52,000 strong Army when marched to Peć.

While the Bosnians were liberating the city, a song was sang:

We're going on plain Kosovo;

Where our Olds lost their heads;

Old glory of our grandfathers;

We too will on Kosovo Polje;

Either lose faith in courage;

Or if Allah gives;

Our enemy defeat;

and to Bosnia in full glory return."

Because Husein is a well documented historical figure I tried to abide to strict facts in the article. Otherwise I would have put songs concerning his childhood and birth in there as well. Thats one reason why I'm not sure this would fit. Another is that this also sounds a bit like national romanticism to me, since I doubt Gradascevic cared much for the original battle of Kosovo. Out of curiosity, what is the source for this song? Live Forever 20:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC) It is the History of the Slavic nations from 1912. Husein did not really care about Kosovo; but he was a true Slavic patriot; he considered all ex yugoslavs (except for the Slovenians) as members of one big nation; that'll soon be headed by him. His ambitions reached a vast Slavic realm under "three crowns" - Islamo-Bosniak, Serbo-Orthodox and Roman-Catholic. Anyway, if you're really reluctant on the song, the 52k is useful, no? --HolyRomanEmperor 19:52, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Six districts

Speedy deletion of Template:Montenegrin parliamentary election, 1992

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Transliteration

You might be interested in the discussion at Talk:Zoran Žigić. —Nightstallion 18:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yugoslavia Creation

Excluding people based on their race or ethnicity is nowhere near universal suffrage, please do not try to misrepresent the events as such. The current version of the article was arrived at after long discussions and compromise, please do not hurt the integrity of it, like removing participation data and percentages of the assembly or that the events took place under foreign military occupation which included serbian soldiers invading major Hungarian cities like Pécs. Further the government of Hungary terminated the personal union and any remaining links with Austria on October 31, 1918, so mentioning Austria-Hungary in any context after that event is incorrect. Hobartimus (talk) 01:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm not focused on anything it just happened that the article showed up on my watchlist and the article was already a result of long and tiring discussion back when we first discussed it. I'm not saying gatherings, assemblies and the like should not be covered at all, but other facts cannot be ommitted as well. The fact is that any such assembly or gathering had no right to discuss anything about Pécs for example in the first place, but my main point is that a whole chain of events should be viewed as a whole. For example imagine if Kosovo were not declaring in a peacful way with pre existing borders, but imagine if the Albanian military occupied all south Serbia and then they organize a great assembly where only Albanians can vote and they decide that great Kosovo which in this imagined example contains 2 million Albanians and 1.5 million Serbs, should be united with Albania. Now some maybe think that even that is justified or that even the current situation is unjustified but its different than a "simple" self determination. Anyway I don't want to spend too much time on this lot of articles need work and I noticed that Podgorica Assembly became a very controversial article also. Currently I'm more intrested in the matters of Kosovo, will there be a seperate article for the declaration itself (if it happens) or will that be covered elsewhere in a general article? Is there somewhere a centralized discussion on this matter? Hobartimus (talk) 15:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Montenegrin independence referendum, 1992

Možeš li da navratiš na srpsku vikipediju? Imamo problem sa korisnikom koji selektivno uklanja neke podatke. Verujem da si objektivan, zato te zovem. -- Bojan  12:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Edits

I do not agree that 60 % of my edits are about Serbia. From today my only edits about Serbia are in article Syrmia (Montenegro ?? Kosovo from today). My edits in article Serbia it is not possible to call that way because I have only added text and sources which are speaking about Independent State of Croatia . Last month or more I am edit warring with banned user Velebit....--Rjecina (talk) 08:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

For me there is no difference between Ovčara, Gospić or Srebrenica. This has been killing against any moral or legal rule. Maybe I am mistaking but you know that first we must have court decision which will say if somebody is guilty and they decide penalty ?? Penalty can be death because of high treason during time of war, but without court decision this is massacre.--Rjecina (talk) 15:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The Greens

What are The Greens you talk about in User_talk:Rjecina#The_Greens? Otto (talk) 08:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Tvrtko and the Nemanjić realm

Small is wrong word:) I'm reffearing that from all Tvrtko's territories just lands of Travunia, parts of Hum, eastern Bosnia and Raška where lands in which Nemanjić ruled in the past. Southeastern parts of the state. And nomain is a tipfeler:) Domains:) Ceha (talk) 17:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Scripts

Sorry for delay. Both scripts had been alternatively named in some mediaeval chronicles, for example, the "Slavonic script", the "Croatian script" (Glagolitic), the "Constantine’s script" (St. Cyril was referred to as Constantine the Philosopher), etc. The Glagolitic script was named after the verb glagolati, "to speak", but it may have been called "Curillic" in some chronicles, after Saint Cyril, who has been considered its primary creator. The Cyrillic script may have been easily called the "Serb script" in Serb chronicles, too? However, have in mind that it has been created in Macedonian and Bulgarian mediaeval literary schools in Ohrid and Preslav, not the Serb ones. --George D. Božović (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

In Serbian chronicles, yes, why not. But I don’t think Cyrillic could have been called simply the "Serb script" universally, it’s just too absurd. :) The Orthodox church in Serbia is often called the "Serb Church", so the Cyrillic script in Serb chronicles could have also been called the "Serb script" (in contrast to the Latin script). With the "widening" of Serbian culture in the 16th and 17th centuries in southern Hungary (Vojvodina), the universal term "Cyrillic script" could have been applied. --George D. Božović (talk) 18:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed there is no such strong cult of Saint Cyril and Methodius in mediaeval Serbia like in some other Slavonic countries (Bulgaria, and even Czechia). The cult of Saint Sava as the "people’s cultural enlightener" seems to have suppressed Saint Cyril in Serbian culture. --George D. Božović (talk) 18:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:SerbianPres2008-World.png

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Euroyobs

Sorry to hear about your friend's car. Mob violence is stupid but some people do it anyway. someone should tell those chavs to get a life — Rickyrab | Talk 19:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I'm not in the Balkans. And even if I were in the Balkans, I'd still need a crystal ball or something. — Rickyrab | Talk 19:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Greens 2

I can not find anything about the rebel Greens in History_of_Montenegro#First_World_War. Do you have a source about these Greens? Otto (talk) 20:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Sourcing...

That's not what the source says. J Milburn (talk) 22:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Milhist coordinators election has started

The February 2008 Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting nine coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of fifteen candidates. Please vote here by February 28. --ROGER DAVIES  21:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Self-Determination (and its discontents)

Pax, greetings from Pristina! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the legal issues. I've spent long hours wrestling with the complex interplay of the legal, moral and practical issues surrounding Kosovo's independence. On the legal front, the reality is that there are very good argument on all side. Neither 1244 nor general principles of international law address clearly all the difficult issues involved in Yugoslavia's tragic demise. It is plausible to say that 1244 envisioned a mutually-agreed settlement on status; it is also plausible to say that 1244 did not explicitly require such a settlement, that in the absence of a negotiated agreement certain decisions could lawfully be made and that references to Serbia's "sovereignty and territorial integrity" were for only for the interim stage of Kosovo's administration. I wanted to address one issue in particular that you raised: self-determination. You will see that virtually all international actors (certainly the Quint countries) have steadfastly avoided using this term. First, it's not accurate to say that the so-called "right to self-determination" gives peoples the right to demand their own nation-state. As you rightly pointed out, self-determination in the post-colonial context has been interpreted to mean only that peoples have a right to govern their own affairs and be autonomous, not to secede. For obvious reasons, nobody wants to reformulate that right, using Kosovo as the example. The Quint's legal case instead focuses on the extraordinary combination of factors involved in the collapse of Yugoslavia and Kosovo -- including, the violence/genocide in Bosnia, ethnic cleansing, 1244, suspension of Belgrade authority, an extended period of UN administration, a UN-facilitated status process, a virtually nil probability of a negotiated settlement, the near-certainty of new war if Kosovo were forced under Belgrade authority -- and declare Kosovo to be a special case that requires a unique solution. If anything, I think the Kosovo case will work against groups seeking in "self-determination" a new state. Large, influential countries like the U.S., France, U.K., Germany, after months of declaring Kosovo to be sui generis, are going to be loathe to even hint that self-determination justifies statehood. All in all, this is probably for the best! Envoy202 (talk) 08:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Julian New Year

why is 1/14 ommited from Serbian page and included in Montenegrin page as a Holiday. Navyworth (talk) 13:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Template:Belgrade tasks

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Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:43, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo independence - another Balkan horror

It just gets worse and worse. PPNjegos (talk) 21:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I responded

I posted 2 responses, 1 is at North Kosovo discussion page, and the other response is here http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Bosniak#North_Kosovo Bosniak (talk) 21:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

History of Kosovo

Hello Pax. I'm going to assume you know about the history of the Serbs in Kosovo, so any input at Talk:Kosovo#PROPOSAL FOR THE HISTORY SECTION would be appreciated. Also take note of the page in question - User:Getoar/Notebook. Fala. BalkanFever 02:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Good luck!

Good luck with your exams - hope to see you back here soon! -- ChrisO (talk) 12:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

?

What do you mean? 18:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Andrei nacu (talk)

Regarding Kosovo map

Gave you a reply to it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/Image_talk:Kosovo_1913-1992_CIA.jpg) --Arsenio (talk) 10:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Polls

Have there been any post-Kosovo polls done in Serbia? —Nightstallion 15:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for catching my error. Usually I don't revert those number based changes, but I thought the misspelling of Montenegrins as "Montenerins" was a giveaway. Cpuwhiz11 (talk) 00:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: Montenegro

Standard practice on almost all country pages is to only list the head of government and head of state, leaving all other positions to be listed in the government subsection. Likewise, a leader's party is almost never placed beside their name. The only page I have found that does these things is United States, which may have been what the user was basing his edit on. However, that is not standard convention in country infoboxes. --Helmandsare (talk) 23:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Image:NemanjicCrnojevic.jpg

A tag has been placed on Image:NemanjicCrnojevic.jpg, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done for the following reason:

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Misplaced Pages criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page and leave a note on ] explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.

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Image:NemanjicCrnojevic.jpg

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RE: KLA

Thanks for those links Pax, always good to have more information available. How are you getting on by the way? I see a lot of craziness in Serbia right now - hope things calm down a bit soon.

The problem I have, I think, is with regarding the KLA as some sort of monolithic enterprise. There were some people involved, certainly, who were criminals, and there were definitely people who were members of the KLA who committed acts against the geneva conventions during the war. There is even a strong legal case to be made that attacking the organs of the Serbian state in the years running up to 1998 could be considered acts of terrorism. But the KLA of 1998 were very different. From late March 98, we're talking about a national uprising, not controlled by a central leadership - former members of the "General Staff" have admitted as much. They were totally unprepared for the huge upsurge in popular support, and whole villages of so called "KLA" were operating more or less independently. The leaders were being elected by the villages, not appointed by some military structure, and to ascribe some sort of common intent or purpose in a situation like that, (other than a general perception that it was necessary to defend themselves), is misleading. Calling a national uprising a terrorist group simply isn't a terribly useful description - in the encyclopedic sense. In 1999, the KLA changed again, as many of those who took up weapons fled, and the few that remained organised themselves into a far more efficient and professional force. Again, whether you want to call them terrorists at this stage is up for debate, but I think the consensus is that there was an internal armed conflict by this stage, and unless I'm mistaken, terrorism does not constitute armed conflict in law, thereby leading us to a conclusion that the KLA were legally not a terrorist group.

As for the Al Qaida link - I'm really not sure about it. I've heard lots of rumours, but never any proof. I know of one situation in which the CIA mistakenly identified a Kosovar Albanian KLA member as Osama Bin Laden - you can see the photo in the book 'Be not afraid, for you have sons in America' by Stacy Sullivan, which is an interesting account of one particular gun-runner from Brooklyn. I have also personally talked to a former KLA commander who told me that he was offered a unit of mujahedin fighters. He refused to allow them entry to Kosovo, and as far as I know, they never got further than Albania. The KLA that I know of (mostly in western Kosovo) wanted nothing to do them. Again, however, I have heard rumours of a group operating in the Drenica region. However, rumours are not evidence, and the claim that the KLA had some sort of organisational links with Al Qaida seems to me to be unfounded.

By the way, in regards to the question of whether the KLA can be considered a terrorist organisation re: attacking the Serb police prior to 1998, there's an essay I read a while ago that has an interesting take. I cant find the full text online now, but a summary can be read at http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:oQ9sn9PjWeoJ:www.kentlaw.edu/perritt/courses/seminar/ats-strong-theory-with-sond.ppt+brutality+index+andrew+strong&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=safari - you might find it interesting.

Anyway, I don't really have much time for Misplaced Pages these days, but I've been checking in a bit lately on account of the recent developments. Let me know what you think of the above.

Davu.leon (talk) 10:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic groups

Thanks for that, any additions are welcome. You might also be interested in my subpage here. I'm trying to collect info on all Balkan idiocy. BalkanFever 11:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Image:NemanjicCrnojevic.jpg

Image:NemanjicCrnojevic.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:NemanjicCrnojevic.jpg, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Imbris (talk) 21:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Serbian Empire Flag

There is abundant reasons for speedy deletion of both images. They are not sourced, and recreated on the basis of some symbols on a one map. Those symbols are not flags, not even coats of arms. When someone reconstruct something that never existed that is historical fabricization. It is not permited as non-encyclopaedical and orriginal research as well. I try to be civil as much as I can and wording that I use is very much used as well those shortcuts-abreviations-acronyms (whatever they are). -- Imbris (talk) 22:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

If you are what you claim to be then sourcing the material with sources outside Serbian Heraldry Association wouldn't be a problem. -- Imbris (talk) 22:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

When something is unsourced in real documents, that is a fabrication. When you use some contemporary book with reconstructions then it is obvious that this will be chalenged. There is no historical (archival) document to support the flag that you think is solved by the page 59 of your still un-titled source. I do not see what do you mean when you accuse me of over-reacting, I simply claim that you and Nikola Smolenski do not have a valid source for your reconstructions. Every historian would laugh to this discussion because of claiming something from the middle ages existed in a specific form. -- Imbris (talk) 00:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I will be more carefull next time I use the word reconstruction, it is pure fiction, fabrication, fantasy. That is what Nikola made and that is what that NemanjicCrnojevic.jpg file is all about. Unsourced, Unencyclopaedical. That page 59 is not a source, that flag is most probably the red banner with a modernized Crnojevic CoA that we have there. Nikola made that red double-headed eagle using a symbol that is very dubious, because of its file size, and because it is probably even not portrayed on that map. This is the kind of sources your friends use. And where he found yellow colour - not on that small portion of dubiously existing symbol on one historical map.

Imbris (talk) 01:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This page 59 is from where? Is it some picture-book for 3rd graders. It is most clear that you and Nikola have different souces, his low-res part of that map looks very much different. Also the page you scanned looks not-clear and funny like it was manipulated. I am not accusing you but the author who clearly manipulated with the image.

You say that Nikola is not your friend. Ok. Then why defending him and with a source that looks different from his source.

And on top of it all using his map as a template for your map when his map do not portray Crnojevic CoA which your book states that is on your red flag on Cetinje Monastery.

Also reconstructions of flags by capt. Dinko Franetovic are not sourced and look computorized so we can claim that it is his impression only. That islamic kind of a krown, where is a fact behind it, no where, we can clearly see (if the Lexicon and other sites which show red crown) that it is not correct.

Those are not images from your two books you listed or perhaps they are but which is the source of which page you scanned.

Imbris (talk) 01:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Flag of Montenegro

Stop. Have you read the Constitution of the Republic of Montenegro, no 2/3 majority were needed. Also stop changing the gallery because there are ample evidence that there before 1905 there was used a separate Montenegrin tricolor with the Krown of Montenegro under which were letters N for Nikola and I for First (in cyrilic). -- Imbris (talk) 22:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Please we are talking about two different topics. Your last address was about the Flag of Montenegro (I presume), and there you stated two books without any real sourcing, like scans from the book and such.

The scans or even book cannot change the fact that the Law on the state symbols and the statehood day of Montenegro are lawful and official.

Imbris (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Look at Meyers Kleines Konversationslexikon. Fünfte, umgearbeitete und vermehrte Auflage. Bd. 1. Bibliographisches Institut, Leipzig und Wien 1892. and then stop your POV. -- Imbris (talk) 22:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

About recent sources that you scaned. It is commendable work but we are in agreement about all of the flags portrayed in the page 69. Images of flags portrayed on 79 are dubious because of their obvious computer editing which were done in "present" times. I do not complain even on those flags, merely some details like colours of the crown and letters below it. But there can be place for your flags beside those I contributed. I object that your categorization of me as flemouyant case of insulter and such unsupstantiated statemants.

It is the path of good comeradery the fact that you discuss this topic (Flags of Montenegro in general) separate from the image that I still think should be deleted.

I hope that my contributions to List of flags of Montenegro would not be objected by you because it is well sourced.

Imbris (talk) 19:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

In that Lexicon] it is clear that the authors of that time when the flag was in use reported it to be a national flag same as they reported the flag of Serbia at that time. There is no further categorization of those and others flags at that source. And for the flags of Britain that source includes the Civil Ensign and War Flag of GB but not the Governmental Ensign (Blue Ensign). -- Imbris (talk) 00:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Image:PrincedomMNEdi.PNG

The image is sourced to a historical flag that has its source available here on wikipedia. -- Imbris (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No it is not, white colour is only your POV and stop inserting todays politics into our discussion. Reverting to pale-yellow. -- Imbris (talk) 21:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You stop your obvious constructions. The flag had yellow eagle and if the colour faded then it faded from yellow to pale-yellow. Stop your POV. -- Imbris (talk) 22:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Stefke is not the god of vexillology and you are not either because if you were of that capabilities you would have noticed that Stefke used that purple version where he changed the colours (left a bit of purple here and there) so he used the Princely standard of Danilo I to create the War banner and that War banner has a pale-yellow double-headed eagle.

Second. Nikola inherited that banner and continued to use yellow eagle, see the List of flags and stop pretending that you do not have a point of view. Everybody has - to bad yours is so negative and greaterxxxxxxx. -- Imbris (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

If the decision were to be made by Duja then it is the axe for me. Everyone with a good pair of eyes will see your doing in the List of flags of Montenegro where you claim that Montenegrins had official flag r-b-w up to 1905 Constitution but you do not let that this flag should be called with a proper and NPOV name. Instead you push for Serbian_flag.png which is clear POV. -- Imbris (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You obviously want me blocked. I must now justify myself. -- Imbris (talk) 22:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I admit that some cooling off period is needed. Hoping that the issue would be resolved but with lots of doubts. You said that sources will be checkable please if you still have time upload a portion of page 59 where that flag can be seen to verify. -- Imbris (talk) 23:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You may want to take a look....

Mass rapes in the Bosnian War. BalkanFever 07:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. I don't know much about the ICTY or really the Yugoslav wars in general. I do know that one Macedonian and no Slovenians were put on trial, but that's about it. One other thing, can we have a better title for the page? "Mass rapes", while it seems fitting (by reading the article), it may be a bit weasel worded or POV or something like that. I can't explain it properly, it just seems wrong. BalkanFever 05:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Serbs were rather late comers

Dear Pax, you must know that Serbs came to the Balkans much later than the Bulgarians. Their first King was in 12th c. --Vladko (talk) 14:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Just take a look: ]. --Vladko (talk) 06:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

All Bulgarian Khans, Princes, Kings and Tsars have names, unlike your Unknown Archont. It seems the so-called White Serbs had no state organization at all. Besides, there are at least 1000 kms from Thessaly to Kosovo. --Vladko (talk) 12:23, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

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Talk:Pagania

Hi. You have edited on talk page in article Pagania about question if population of this state has been Serbs, South Slavs or Croats. After my comments on talk page that there is consensus between editors because result in user comments are 10:1 user in minority has demanded active discussion about this. Because of that all editors on talk page has been invited to write thinking so that this question ulmost 3 years after it is opened can be closed with vote.--Rjecina (talk) 00:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

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Imbris

My God I just saw his edits. :))) I cant beleve that he actualy thinks hes right! PPNjegos (talk) 12:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

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Latest edit to template

This edit is, in principle, a good idea -- but we don't redlink to future elections normally, so could you write a short stub on the imminent election? —Nightstallion 22:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Polls?

Have you seen this poll? DSS shrinking to the point of barely making the census, and LDP growing to match DSS -- that's great news! —Nightstallion 15:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

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I'm so tired

I don't know. I had some other (real) problems over here, so nothing would come to my mind. I would stick it to only (Stjepan, Stevan). I don't know, but I am sure that any resolution that would be presented, somebody would come and say that's wrong. And start edit war. --HarisM (talk) 14:01, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Maps

I constructed the maps using sources of Fine(early medueval Balkans) and Curta (Southeastern Europe in the MIddle ages).

I will double check when the Croat duchy became a 'duchy' and double check on the borders. I know it is often claimed that croatia bordered the drina in 840s, but i think that the first time it really did was in 925 after the battle with Symeon.

As for Zahumlje, i addeda border for it in the 840 map, but did not label it because it was not actually mentioned by Constantine P. He only mentions Travunia (since Vlastimire;s daughter married the zhupan's son) and Pagania (because they were pirates). Zahumlje is first mentioned in 890 when Gojnikovic came into conflict with Michael. I am not sure of the territorial extent of Peter's expansion into Zahumlje. Anyway, i made a revised version of the 840 map, with all 4 duchies labelled. However, Peter Gojnikovic expanded Serbias borders into Bosna in 890, so Bosnia was part of Serbia in 900. Peter subjegated one zhupan called Tisemir in Bosnia during this time (can we tell whether tha is a serb or croat name ??)

I did not find any info about Duklja before 970. If we ignore the Chronicle of the Preist of Duklja, there is little info about it. Curta suggests that the slavs there were ruled directly by the byzantine emperor during the 800s. Yet by 990, Duklja was ruled by a Slavic Prince. This means somehow during this time, it somehow lost Byzantine rule (maybe Peter or Caslav expanded his rule into it- but i do not know for sure).

I noted that on the Duklja page, there is an image of the seal of one Peter, the archont of Duklja. I do not know how reliable it is, what is the source, and which Peter it actually refers to . Hxseek (talk) 14:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don;t think Symeon lost any territory in Bosnia because he won all his battles. So to whom would he have lost part of Bosna to ?

The stuff you say about Duklja makes sense, and is what i thought. But i just didn't find any references to it. If you can provide me with any source about it, i will add it-especially about the archeological finds suggesting that it was basically in continuum as Serbia. We will need to back this up , as u know. Since others will claim it was part of Red Craotia. I have not come across any western Scholar talking of a red croatia (and i told this to Zenranah and Kubura, who i have friendly correspondences with).

Also i dno't think the BUlgarian invasion of Serbia occurred in 850. It was c. 824. During this time, Michael of Zahumlje might have ruled part of Diokletija, Zahumlje and Travunia- so he came to be quite powerful

I want to re-do the Duklja article, and will add more new info about early Serb Hx (because currently it just starts with Nemenya's state), and revise a couple of the maps

Now i have to go contendt with that Turk nationalist Nostradamus about the Avar article. Talk soon

Hxseek (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Jus 2 things we seem to have a different idea about

1. If Peter Gojnik ruled to 917, he obviously could not have expanded west after 924. He expanded c. 900 into Pagania, Bosnia and Zahumlje.

2. Tomislav of Croatia beat the Bulgars, so i don;t see how he could have lost land to the Bulgars. THe Bulgars bordered Dalmatian Croats (c. 900) somewhere in Bosnia, possibly Bosna river

3. Where is/ was Gradina of Montenegro ? Hxseek (talk) 07:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Borders of Croatia c. 925

I read books by Fine and Curta who do not explicitly mention the border. The article here in Wiki about the Battle suggests that the borders were at the Drina. Hupchik, in a map in his book, draws it to the Drina. So who know, not sure exactly.

By the way, what is your though about Kosovo's curent status ? Hxseek (talk) 13:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

So who was the archeologist that founf the seals of Peter in Duklja (so i can wuote his work. publishing) Hxseek (talk) 05:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. By the way, do you know anything about Mihailo of Zahumlje. His heritage is from the Visla river. Does this refer to Vistula in Poland. ?? Hxseek (talk) 05:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Makedonija or BJRM

Hi Pax. Could you please translate this? Also, do you think it is relevant to the position of Serbia, as it is from 2005? BalkanFever 02:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Hvala/Fala. Pozdrav iz Australije :). BalkanFever 10:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo

Just read that UNMIK and KPS are back in Mitrovica now, and I've also read that the NS delegation in Kikinda has switched to the DS over rumours regarding a possible DSS-SRS coalition...? Do you think the populist coalition could break up? —Nightstallion 17:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Jebo ga ti,sto si otisao?haha

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Serb_propaganda_in_the_Yugoslav_wars_%282nd_nomination%29#Serb_propaganda_in_the_Yugoslav_wars —Preceding unsigned comment added by GriffinSB (talk • contribs) 19:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Medojevic

I didn't upload it. It was probably taken off the promotional website but tagged with gov PD. --Avala (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Macedonia

The government crisis is over. :) Any news whether there'll be problems in Croatia or not? —Nightstallion 20:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This guy

Hello Pax, In case you haven't seen this, Tubesship seems to have attacked you (again) on Bosniak's talk page

If you feel you want to take action against him, that would be understandable. He is starting to take me on too, telling me to get over the "truth" and "reality" and other crap.... BalkanFever 03:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: he extended it . BalkanFever 10:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean aside from these above? BalkanFever 14:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right. This was borderline, but I was actually more concerned about the number of attacks he made against you. Many comments that you made, relating to the article, were followed by something not constructive by him. He also has a thing for tangents about Serbs being POV and propaganda and whatnot. BalkanFever 14:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

User page update

Hello!

It seems pretty obvious to me that you're a wise choice in being approached for help regarding most things Wiki, especially the ever elusive goal of objectiveness and neutrality when it comes to anything to do with ex-Yugo history and politics. For that reason, I think that anyone who agrees with me and is considering asking for your help or advice might get dissapointed to read your user page where you inform us of your retirement. It would be a shame to lose you, no doubt, and I hope that you are not retiring and that your user page has just not been updated due to real-life time constraints.
Peace! SWik78 (talk) 15:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Amen. —Nightstallion 20:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Serb propaganda in the Yugoslav wars

Hi Pax. I took the liberty of restoring the comments you had crossed off (<s> </s>) in this discussion. On one hand, I think that the closing administrator will see those comments for what they are and ignore most of them; on the other I believe that keeping them in their original form will help any future reader of that discussion to better understand the manner in which such articles are created, maintained and developed.
In any case, if you so wish, feel free to cross them off again :-) Best regards, Ev (talk) 17:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• I can't help mentioning just a very minor detail regarding your comment at Talk:Kosovo: I think that you meant the "intelligentsia" (the intellectual community) instead of "intelligence" (which brings to mind a government or military agency: CIA, KGB, etc.). I could barely resist correcting it myself :-) Best regards, Ev (talk) 17:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Legality section on independence article

I also noted the length of the section. The article Controversy over Kosovo independence already deals with the question of legality so most of the information should be moved there, but there's also too many quotes used. Paraphrasing some of the information is a good idea rather than basically having other people write for you. On the POV it seems like you basically were arguing against independence and only brought up the opinions of supporters to then go "here's how they're wrong" which is an argument (i.e. POV) and original research. Specifically using two sources to make a claim asserted by neither is called synthesis.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that Kosovo has no viable legal claim to independence, but this is all the same a POV and your edits seemed to be pushing that POV. Obviously including support for Kosovo's independence would help balance out the section, though most of the info you had should be included in some way in the controversy article. The section on the independence article was much too long.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

ICJ opinion

The third comment here might interest you... ;) —Nightstallion 22:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo and Serbia

You are chanchen the article Serbia. This is not POV to Misplaced Pages at all. Kosovo is dispudet, if this is the case thane Serbia is dispudet too. We have 36 states witch are saying this. Serbia is protesting but all so is accepting to be recotnesed in new Borders. Beacose of this don´t chanche the articel without arguments.--Hipi Zhdripi (talk) 22:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Pax. I'm going to revert your addition of the POV tag regarding the intro. I'm going to start a topic in the Talk, and propose the POV tag. Hopefully we can discuss and change the intro (or depending on consensus not) and if it goes horribley wrong, than we'll decide to add the POV tag. It just takes away from the article too much for there not to be a dedicated discussion regarding changing it. I'm not trying to be an ass, come discuss it or hit up my talk page. We can do this, let me and you work together. Beam (talk) 23:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You are maken consencuse with yourself. But the consensues we need is consensuse with realty.--Hipi Zhdripi (talk) 23:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Take this from the reader prespectiv, not from the wikipedia editors.--Hipi Zhdripi (talk) 23:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Locig "only"

Your logic "only" is not correct. Beacose "only" one "-" is meaking from "100" to "-100" --Hipi Zhdripi (talk) 23:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Or, iracional numbers. Only a "string" is maken from "real number" a "imaginar number"--Hipi Zhdripi (talk) 23:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you leave Pax alone, you're causing problems for no reason. If you want to help with the article stop spouting nationalistic crap. Thanks. There is no room in this article for an editor who is so irrevocably biased as you seem to be. Beam (talk) 23:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I endorse Beam. We won't come anywhere like this. --Tone 00:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

And yes, I would really appreciate your help in the last proposal about intro so please, collect some more energy and help, your comments are important. --Tone 00:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo

Why are you so against the people of Kosovo? The vast majority of the people of Kosovo, together with the unanimity of the Assembly of Kosovo support independence, and then friendly relations with Serbia.

As Kosovo is a democracy, would you not say that its status should be determined by the majority?

I speak a British citizen - the United Kingdom is a union of 4 countries, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Support for the union is almost unanimous in England and Wales. In Scotland, there is a minority who want independence. Clearly, if a majority of Scots wanted independence, it would be granted; however the results of the 2007 Scottish Elections Scottish_Parliament#Results_in_2007 showed that parties supporting a independence referendum (the Scottish National Party and the Scottish Green Party) could not even muster 40% of the votes and seats. The other parties (Labour, Liberal and Conservative) which took 60% of the vote are totally opposed to independence, and even refused an offer of a coalition government because the SNP was adamant thts its independence policy should stand. Therefore the Queen appointed an SNP first minister, to head a minority administration. The point I'm making is that while I support the principle of nations uniting (eg within the United Kingdom, United States or the European Union), this must be done democratically.

In Northern Ireland, a similar situation applies, pro-unionist parties have always won the elections.

In the Republic of Ireland, a majority did not support the union, and therefore the RoI was granted independence.

I would also say that there is no chance that Kosovo will ever rejoin Serbia, Kosovo is backed by the majority of European and UN permanent members. I know Serbia has pinned its hopes of asking the UN general assembly to request a ruling from the International Court of Justice. Realistically, are the ICJ going to rule against a declaration of independence supported by 90% of the population of a country. I think notw, what about the right to self determination. Please remember that the Court backed self determination for Western Sahara International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion on Western Sahara.

Anyway, while Serbia may be able to persuade a large number of countries to remain neutral, and take no action to recognize Kosovo, it is not right to say they have the support of these nations - certainly Serbia will not get two thirds of the UN to vote in favour of in the general assembly. 2007apm (talk) 01:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Your constant fabrication and insulting of me

• hardline ultra-nationalist & POV-pusher (can you READ?? Montenegro HASNT RECOGNIZED KOSOVO

Is this the best you can do to insult someone. Funny. -- Imbris (talk) 20:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Your construction of a "net" of users who will falsely accuse me on the sole basis of your attitude towards me is ridiculous. Most of your flags that you put on the List of flags of Montenegro is sourced to only one or two sources - does it makes them completely wrong - it does not if the sources are not-biased. Even in cases of biased sources I have complained but not removed them. Your politics is clear as day but I will be polite and not say what that policy is all about, that is well known to users like Rjecina (whom I do not know, I haven't even colaborated (contributed) to an article with. User1389 is a firstimer and possibly a sock of some kind. -- Imbris (talk) 21:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid that that sit-in will not be neccessary. All of this could be talked over at one of the talk pages here. Everything is a compromise, your Crnojevic-Nemanjic flag and other stuff. -- Imbris (talk) 21:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop your attempts to resolve the pocker game you are playing. In that argument I said that I am not Montenegrin, you bragged about having MNE roots or something like that - which resulted in a mis-understanding. -- Imbris (talk) 21:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The meaning has been lost in the translation. -- Imbris (talk) 22:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I did not understand your last messagge. Can you help and clarify? Thanks! -- Imbris (talk) 19:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Flag Serbia

Pa ima sigurno Mesecdana kad sam stavio onu sliku srpska Zastava ispred UNa od tog dana taj imbis samo menja moju sliku za onu drugu neznam sta mu je.--User1389 (talk) 08:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

a na moje poruke ne odgovara i stalo pise da srbija ima dve zastave tacno je to ali ispred UNa samo jedna Visi.--User1389 (talk) 08:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Left you a note on your user talk page on Commons - pls. reply there

Hi there, just a head's up. I had some questions and observations regarding Image:Kosovo_relations.png, which you overwrote with a rather idiosyncratic content on Commons. Pls. reply on your Commons talk page. --Mareklug 03:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment

You've retired? But you still are writting stuff, in the Kosovar pages and etc. Reply at my page. Kosova2008 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

origins of serbs

At last my research is coming together. I think i am ready to present an updated, neutral account od serb medieval history , from western scholars. Here is a sample, about Origins. I know quite a bit has already been written in this article, but i think we can add this as "current theory" or concesus/ summary:

Origins of the Serbs

Here we will discuss the origins of the Serb tribe, ie the proto-Serbs, also referred to as the White Serbs. This does not entirely reflect the origins of modern Serbs- who are the product of various peoples that kept this ancient name.

According to De Administrando Imperio by Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (written c. 920s AD)- the White Serbs migrated from White Serbia- a region in what is now eastern Germany, neighboured by the Franks and White Croats. Led by the chief’s son, half the Serbs migrated south into the Balkans, whilst the rest remained behind . Porphyrogenitus dates their arrival during the rule of Emperor Heraclius (610-41). At this time, the Avars and their Slavic allies ruled over much of Illyria, save a few towns on the Adriatic coast. Constantine VII mentions that the Croats defeated the Avars, pushing them out of the western Balkans. His account doesn’t explicitly mention any Serb involvement in the above battle, although certainly some of the territory the Serbs settled was under Avar rule. He elaborates that the Serbs actually first settled a region called Servia, in Thessaly, Greece. Not too their liking, most set off back north, but were then granted a large part of Dalmatia – what was known as ‘Serbia’, Pagania, Zachlumia, Travunia and Konavle. The Royal Frankish Annals confirm this, stating that the Serbs occupy a “large part of Dalmatia”. Porphyrogenitus concludes that the Serbs and Croats accepted Byzantine supremacy, were Christianized by Rome, and were allowed to live in these lands as allies of the Emperor (ie federates).

Scholars have cast doubt on the reliability of De Administrando Imperio. Primarily regarding chapters 30, 31 and 32. Chapters 30 and 31 are two variant versions about the Croats arrival, one seemingly derived from Croatian folklore at the time, another one more fitting to Byzantine political interests. Chapter 32- about the Serbs- seems to be a copy of Chapter 31 (or vice versa). Other points are also raised. During the 7th century, the Byzantine Empire was stretched fighting Persians in its eastern provinces and would not have been in a position to enforce its supremacy over the Serbs and Croats, as it had lost virtually all its Balkan possessions. Secondly, as the Rome- Constantinople rift was already developing, why would the Emperor have invited missionaries from Rome to Christianize peoples within the political sphere of Constantinople? Clearly some political bias is evident in the works. Nonetheless, his work is an invaluable source about the early Slavic states in the Balkans. The Byzantines kept extensive chronicles about the ‘barbarians’ they encountered and the treaties they signed .

Apart from debates about the political circumstances at the time of settlement, Pophyrogenitus’ placement of the Serbs homeland in Germany had been settled. Whilst other independent writers (such as King Alfred’s translation of The History of the World and the Russian Primary Chronicle) also cite the existence of White Serbia and Croatia in Germany-Poland, these accounts are all from no earlier than the mid-ninth century, and could represent their depiction of the geography of central Europe “in the light of what was known in Constantinople”. .

Whilst the prevalent view is that Serbs are Slavs, linguists suggest that the word “Serb’ (and “Croat’) is of Iranian origin. Using this linguistic, and other (arguable) toponymic examples, they suggest that the original Serbs and Croats were Samartian tribes in antiquity, who mobilised and ruled Slavic tribes, and gave them their name. They were rapidly absorbed by the numerically superior Slavs, but the name was kept. Whilst there is no proof for such a theory, it is certainly plausible. The postulated “Slavic homeland” was in the vicinity of modern Ukraine. For centuries, the Slavs had contacts with Sarmatians. A Sarmatian tribe called the Serboi existed, which might have fused into large body of Slavs, rapidly becoming Slavonized, but retaining the ancient name Serboi. This view has been accepted by some prominent historians such as Fine and Hupchik, who view the Serbs as an Iranic tribe which ruled over more numerous Slavic tribes, thus had become rapidly Slavonized before or shortly after arriving to the Balkans.

In contrast to Porhyrogenitus’ account of a German homeland, Slavist Valentin Sedov places the origins of the Serbs to the Pontic steppe. He suggests they were one of the numerous constituent tribes in the Antean League. When the Antes were subordinated by the Avars, a great number of Slavic tribes were swept into the western Balkans as part of the Avars incursions into Byzantine Dalmatia. Curta, on the over hand, takes the view that the ‘Serb’ might have been a social label, rather than an ethnic designation. He suggests that they might have been one of many otherwise related Slavic tribes that rose to prominence in the western Balkans. Thus the name was preserved as the tribe expanded their influence over other tribal territories.

Whatever their origins, the Serbs rose as a powerful tribe in the 7th century. They probably revolted against Avar rule as part of the generalised turmoil within the Avar Khanate in the 630s. At this time, Slavs had already settled parts of Dalmatia due to their participation in Avar raids into Byzantine territory. (see South Slavs). The aboriginal Balkan peoples (predominantly Illyrians, as well as Dacians in northern Serbia), had been losing much of their language and culture after centuries of Greek, then Roman rule/ influence; compounded by a population decline during the “Dark Ages’ of barbarian invasions. Nevertheless, some of the Latin-speaking natives survived, and eventually fused with the Slavs. As Avar rule collapsed, more Slavs migrated into the Balkans. The final result was a large body of people occupying most of what was Yugoslavia- a fusion of Slavic newcomers and ‘Romanized’ Illyrians.

Constantine Porphyrogenitus states that the Serbs settled ‘Serbia’, Pagania, Zahumlje, Konavli and Tribenje. Nothing is explicitly mentioned about Duklja, but if we hold Constantine’s account, then it would follow that this region was also inhabited by Serbs since they settled the surrounding lands. Naturally, Serbian scholars generally accept this testimony, whilst Croatian and Bosniak scholars question its reliability- stating that Porphyrogenitus exaggerated their territorial extent, biased towards Serbs since they accepted Byzantine influence, whereas the Croats aligned with Rome. Instead, Croat scholars generally uphold the version written in the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja, which mentions that Duklja was settled by Red Croats. However, as Fine suggests, such a debate over ‘historical rights’ is futile, since in the early Middle Ages Pagans, Serbs, Croats, Zahumliani were merely tribal labels. The mass of Slavs who settled the former Yugoslavia were all one people that were divided into many tribes. As Reinhard Wenskus suggests, ‘ethnicity’ was not fixed by genetic (tribal) descent, but fluid – available to any person under the rule of a band aristocratic warriors who carried ethnic traditions. Thus, as the power of the Serbian princes fluctuated, neighbouring Slavs would both coalesce and disband from this nucleus of Serb identity. Only much later would Serb and Croat come to have definable, fixed meaning.

Hxseek (talk) 05:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

QUESTION: Was it in DAI that Porphyrogenitus mentions Bosnia as a 'region of Serbia" ? WHen did Bosnia as a region became known/ referred to ? Hxseek (talk) 03:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Well it became an independent banate circa 1180 during Kulin. We often mention "in 950 Caslav conquered Bosnia", but this is using today's terrminology. WHen was the term "Bosnia" first used to actually denote the region of land between Bosna and Drina

Yes. That's what i thought. Peter Gojnikovic ruled Bosna valley in 900s. DOn't know whether this border was maintained by Zaharije and Pribislav.

We also know that Bosnia was ruled by Croats in 800s as well as during Kresimir II (960s), then again during Kresimir IV (it was a recognized banate). After Byzantine's victories in 1018, we know that one 'ruler' of Bosnia was involved in the 'coalition' of Byzantine-vassal Slav states against Voislav. Duklja then ruled it in 1080 (Courtier Stephen, Bodin's vassal).

Then there is a gap of knowlegde. Hungary conquered the area in 1102- initially ruling the area directly then ban Boric is mentioned in service of the Hungarian King. The chroniclers of the Hungaro-Byzantine wars in 1140s mentioned that Bosnia was seperated from the rest of Serbia by the Drina. ITs people were not subject to the Veliki Zhupan of Raska , but had a "special way of government". It is interesting they used the the phrase "rest of Serbia" as if suggesting it was part of Serbia ?

What we do not know is how Bosnia ruled itself when external control was low, eg between 1080-1100. - was there one ruling ban or zhupan, or was the area split into different zhupanias ?

Yes, from Fine. Peter... had been expanding his state to the west, defeating Tisemir of Bosnia, annexing the valley of the River Bosna and then expanding along the Neretva, where he seems to have come into some sort of territorial conflict with Michael of Zahumlje (who also ruled Tribenje and most of Duklja).

i have never heard of this "Tisemir" before. Is that a serb or croat name? Hxseek (talk) 11:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Croatia

It's already on my watchlist, and it has always been. Sadly, I don't check my watchlist anymore, because I have waaaay too much work to do in RL as it is, and every time I look at it I see there's so much more to do here on wikipedia too. And that depresses me then :(. So I made a conscious decision to stop checking it or I will get back to editing wikipedia for hours every day and I just don't have time for that...

Not to mention that I have grown somewhat disillusioned at my fellow Croatians (and Serbs) with regards to every possible article that concerns our two peoples. We all act like utter dicks, no one wants to do anything constructive or, God forbid, have a polite discussion to air their grievances. Being dicks is what we're good at.

So even if I had time to patrol my watchlist, I have lost the patience and the stamina to deal with croatian-serb tensions and the resultant consequences of them. I'm sorry, but I hope you understand. I wish you the best (I see that you are retiring). -- Xompanthy (talk) 00:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo Intro

Please add your suggested changes and post results @ http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Kosovo&action=edit&section=29 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beamathan (talk • contribs) 01:13, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I mean actually edit the intro and add your info. Thanks. Beam (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXV (March 2008)

The March 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Koment

Ti flet Shqip apo je Shqiptar? Nqofse jo, si mundesh te flasish shqip nqofse je i huaj (jo i Balkanit)? Kosova2008 (talk) 19:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Translation: You speak Albanian or are an Albanian? If not, how can you talk Albanian when you're a foreigner (non-Balkanian)? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 20:43, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry

Smashing remark, don't you think? ;D BTW: Glad to see that you haven't retired from the project! --Camptown (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Serbs of Croatia

Good job getting your point across! I was going to do something like that so there's no doubt as to the validity of my argument but I guess I'm ever so slightly lazier than you are :)

Peace! SWik78 (talk) 14:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Haradinaj

Pax, real, honest advice here. Read the judgement on the Haradinaj case. Before you make any more remarks about what he did or didn't do. It's very, very clearly laid out. People in the KLA committed crimes. Haradinaj was not only not involved, but he was one of the few who tried to stop these things from happening. This is a guy who could help bring your two countries together, if only you'd let him. Ignore the propaganda, you're too smart for that - find out for yourself. You might just be surprised. Seriously, the judgement is available to the public, and it's worth a read.

With respect, Davu.leon (talk) 18:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey Pax,

Don't really want to talk about it in wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure I may have more information on Haradinaj than you are relying on. And yes, I have had contact with, (though as yet, only briefly, Natasya Kandic, as well as many others.)

The reason I don't want to post stuff in wikipedia is that I have no desire to have my inbox flamed on this matter and have to change addresses, but if you know of some way to make a private message I would love to discuss the matter further, as I believe you may be misinformed about this particular case. Not saying you definitely are, but as far as know, and I am not a wholly credulous person, Haradinaj is not the man you think he is.

As I mentioned before, a good starting point is the full judgement, which is interesting reading for a student of history, if nothing else. Davu.leon (talk) 23:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Tungi (hello)

I hope you don't miss this comment, I'm making a new headline at the bottom instead of replying at previous location so you won't miss it. You didn't answer my question but instead answered someone else's question probably. I think I read somewhere where you said, "I don't speak Albanian but I can understand enough to know that you wrote this and that about history"---so my question is how do you know or speak Albanian? Also you wrote in my talk-page, " Balkans can achieve peace is if we close by our cultures to each other," what does that mean? Kosova2008 (talk) 21:14, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Kingdom of Italia and Kingdom of Yugoslavia

I am sure that you will be interested in this article and I am sure that editorial help is needed :)--Rjecina (talk) 09:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure a lot of people asked this already

I'm sure a lot of people asked this already, but what is the purpose of putting up huge wikibreak and retired signs, when you edit at a record setting pace of 50 edits per day(500 per 10 days)? And those are quality edits too mostly longish comments on talk pages etc, I see your edits a lot on talk:Kosovo for example. Hobartimus (talk) 10:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

bosnian language in constitution of montenegro

http://www.sllrcg.cg.yu/001-2007.pdf

official page of 'Sluzbeni List Crne Gore'

Article 13: Bosnian (bosanski - босански) - not Bosniac/Bosniak (bošnjački - бошнјачки) —Preceding unsigned comment added by King.tvrtko (talk • contribs) 07:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Bosniaks

Greetings. I've noticed you are one of the editors who has edited the Bosniaks article. I was wondering if you would have any input into a few "revert wars" happening lately over there. Here's a diff. Personally, I think the changes are biased, a little racist/xenophobic, but mostly, they are wrong.

P.S, I've sent this message to a few of the users I've seen in the talk page history to try to get a discussion started. 121.222.199.140 (talk) 10:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Dragović and Bakić

Hi I am looking for some information on Z.Dragović and Bakić that wrote Code of Law in 1914... Do you have more information on these people? What positions did they hold? Where were they from? Where can I get some info about them? (I am particularly interested abut Dragović). Thanks! 217.153.207.18 (talk) 14:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Živko Dragović was one of the first historians (wrote in 1910 the "Short History for Schooling" and "The Travel of Peter I (the Saint) to Russia in the year of 1785 and the Persons which played a Role in that Journey: Abbot Dolči, General Zorić, General Nerandžić, Prince Potemkin and others" in 1902) and lawyers in Montenegro ("Code of Law" in 1914 and "Constitutionality" in 1906). He was a Rector of Cetinje's Teacher's School at the beginning of the 20th century, previously working there as a teacher, he was continually an MP in the Montenegrin National Assembly (from the first in 1906 to the Podgorica in 1918, always elected by the Cetinjans), he was a Council in the State Council of Božo Petrović-Njegoš (1879-1905). He studied the data of Marko Dragović and published them in 1881 within the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. He is from a village close to Cetinje, but spent most of his life in it and held countless local posts. He knew Russian (translated Teplova's "Deputies of Jewish States in Ancient Constantinople" in 1892) and studied Russian literature, including dedicated to the study of Montenegrin-Russian relations.

P.S. You should really register over here. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that! Where can I find some more info about him? (meaning where did you get all this info from?;)). I am Dragović so I am am particulary interested. On the other hand mine are from Vasojevići around Andrijevica and Żivko is from around Cetinje (what about MArko?). Might not be the same family, I need to check it out... p.s. sory for the unsigned post, I am new to this business so I did not get logging-on habbit yet:)Drmiko (talk) 09:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

In that case, there are more than one Dragović family in Andrijevica because, you see, I am from the Vasojevici clan not Moraca:) But still, where do you get all this information from?Drmiko (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Golubovci and Tuzi

Honestly, Pax, I am horribly bad at redrawing maps, let alone creating them. --Prevalis (talk) 15:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

?

Why did you send me WP:TROLL to read? (Top Gun)

It has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages, and I was not writing it all around but just on the talk page of an Albanian editor from Kosovo who provoked me first, I didn't seek a fight with him.(Top Gun) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.116.170.203 (talk) 21:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussing

How can we discuss when you constantly peek on the same issues. Also you have not demonstrated the will to compromise. I do not like your cut-copy-paste technique of discussing. You avoide to discuss the real topics (such as why calling the flag that Montenegrins used Serbian flag?). Please stop copying discussions about some minor topics when we have bigger fish to fry. Stop repeating that I need to produce sources because I have produced it, the fact that you haven't accepted them is beyond comprehension to me. I have not accepted your sources - but haven't bickered the issue - because it is pointless. The Misplaced Pages community will not understand neither why you do not accept my sources nor why I do not accept yours. So a compromise is needed. Reveting is not an option. -- Imbris (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Maps Issue

Thanks for alerting me on the "criticisms"

I posted my reply on the Pagania talk page. I welcome your thoughts/ views Hxseek (talk) 07:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

dragan dzajic

Is Romani? --24.108.213.239 (talk) 08:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, yeah. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 08:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I am logged in now, is there any other information associated with him being in the party? --Hurricane Angel (talk) 08:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Not to me... --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Retired or not?

Why do you say that you are a retired editor in your user page and nevertheless you continue to edit? --Checco (talk) 11:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand that you decided to remain in en.Wiki: very good news! --Checco (talk) 14:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Amen! :) —Nightstallion 17:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Results

According to press reports, the full official results of the elections in Montenegro are known, but I haven't been able to find them anywhere...? —Nightstallion 12:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Thnx

Beam, I'm tired (paraphrased)--PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes I have felt that since DBACH came at me the other day. I am trying so hard not to be an asshole.

Please don't leave. I need you. Seriously, because you disagree with me but you're not a complete dick about it. Come help me work on it. Together, the article can't beat us. I know how you're feeling, but come out of retirement. Please? Beam (talk) 23:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I have added that section to the talk page. I'll see you there soon. Beam (talk) 23:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

We have finally got a working NPOV intro done on the Kosovo article, if you have further suggestions please make them regarding the intro. I'd like to discuss the info boxes now and would appreciate your comments. Thanks. Beam (talk) 02:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Croatian collaborators

Category:Croatian collaborators and Category:Montenegrin collaborators, which you created, have been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. – Good Ol’factory 03:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

When you have a few minutes . . . .

As i said earlier, I have been working on Serbian (and Croat, Bosnian) history. Especially the early stuff, because not much is known. Here on wiki, Serbian history basically starts frm 12th century. I got quite a bit in early years. I want to add it to Serbia history, maybe in sections (eg 700-900AD). Some will go to Duklja history, eg during Dukljan dominance of Raska, so we can simply write : see Duklja. ANyway here goes

Early ‘Serbia’ (800s-1020)

Following the fall of Avar power, the Slavs of the western Balkans remained divided into many small tribes. The Byzantines called these tribal units Sclavinias. Each tribe was composed of several family clans, whose affairs were ruled by elders, headed by one ruler – the “Zhupan” (chieftan).

In the 9th century, the Bulgarian Khanate was starting to expand westward, having spread into what is now northern Serbia (the Srem region), eastern Slavonia and northern Bosnia (where it came to border the Dalmatian Croats). At the same time, it was pushing into Macedonia in the south, effectively encircling the Serbs. As a response to this, with Byzantine support, a few central Serbian counties united defensively under Knez (‘Prince’) Vlastimir- the founder of the Vlastimirovic dynasty. The extent and location of this early Serb principality is not known with certainty, but we can make a few inferences. Its core territory was probably situated in the valleys of the Piva, Lim, Ibar and upper Drina rivers, in what is now southwestern Serbia, eastern Montenegro and southeastern Bosnia(see 840s map). Archaeological evidence shows that Ras was a frontier fort controlled by the Bulgarians, marking the early Serb-Bulgarian border. The Croats were the neighbours to the north. Between Serbia and the Adriatic coast existed four minor principalities, often referred to as the ‘Southern Dalmatian Slavic Principalities’. These were Travunia, Zachlumia, Dioklea and Pagania. The northern extent of Vlastimir’s realm was limited by Bulgarian presence, since the Slavic tribes of Srem, Backa and northern Bosnia (Abordrites, Timochans, Braniches) had to acknowledge Bulgarian clientage. The Slavs of coastal Montenegro and elsewhere south were probably under the direct Byzantine rule.

Knez ('Prince') Vlastimir defended the lands against Bulgarian attacks for 3 years in the 840s. He married his daughter to the son of the Zhupan of Travunia, Balaes, raising his status to Prince and establishing an allegiance. Travunia henceforth acknowledged Serbia’s authority, and was incorporated in Serbia as a semi-independent principality. Vlastimir's sons- Mutimir, Gojnik and Stojmir- defeated another Bulgarian attack c.853, capturing Khan Boris’ son Vladimir and twelve leading boljars. They escorted Vladimir to the Serb-Bulgarian border, exchanged gifts and concluded a peace treaty. Rather than practising primogeniture, Slavic rulers practiced staresina, where rule passed to the eldest person in the extended family (rather than the son of the King). The realm would then be split between the surviving brothers, sons, nephews and cousins. Such tradition repeatedly caused succession strife.

Sometime after defeating the Bulgarians, Mutimir ousted his brothers (who fled to Bulgaria) to rule alone. He kept Gojnik’s son Peter in his court, but he also fled to Croatia. He ruled until 890, being succeeded by his son Prvoslav. However, Prvoslav was overthrown by Peter Gojnikovic, who had returned from his exile in Croatia c. 892. The name Peter is Christian, suggesting that Christianity had started to permeate into Serbia- undoubtedly through Serbia’s contact with the Bulgarians and Byzantines. Peter secured himself on the throne (after fending off a challenge from Klonimir, son of Stojmir) and was recognised by Symeon of Bulgaria. An alliance was signed between the two states. Already having Travunia’s loyalty, Peter began to expand his state north and west. He defeated a zhupan in Bosnia, one Tisemir, annexing the Bosna River valley. He then moved west securing allegiance from the Pagans. In the southwest, he possibly gaining lands further toward the coast- this province became known as Diokliteja (Duklja). Seals have been found bearing Peter’s name, titled as the Archont of Duklja. However, Peter’s expansion into Dalmatia brought him into conflict with Prince Michael Visevic of Zahumlje. Michael had also grown powerful, ruling not only Zachlumia, but exerting his influence over Travunia and Dioklea. Porphyrogenitus explains that Michael’s roots were different from Vlastimirovici, and was unwilling to yield authority to Peter.

Although allied to Symeon, Peter became increasingly disgruntled by the fact that he was essentially subordinate to him. Peter’s expansion toward the coast facilitated contacts with the Byzantines, by way of the strategos of Dyrrachium. Searching for allies against Bulgaria, the Byzantines showered Peter with gold and promises of greater independence if he would join their alliance- a convincing strategy. Peter might have been planning an attack on Bulgaria with the Magyars, showing that his realm had stretched north to the Sava river (see 900s map). However, Michael of Zahumlje fore-warned Symeon of this plan. Michael was an enemy of Peter, and remained loyal to Symeon.

What followed was multiple Bulgarian interventions and a succession of Serb rulers. Symeon attacked Serbia (in 917) and deposed Peter, placing Pavel Branovic (a grandson of Mutimir) as Prince of Serbia, subordinate to Symeon. Unhappy with this, the Byzantines then sent Zaharije Prvoslaviljevic in 920 to oust Pavel, but he failed and was sent to Bulgaria as prisoner. The Byzantines then succeeded in turning Prince Pavel to their side. In turn, the Bulgarians started indoctrinating Zaharije. Zaharije invaded Serbia with a Bulgarian force, and ousted his cousin Pavel in 922. However, he too turned to Byzantium. A punitive force sent by the Bulgarians was defeated. Zaharije sent the heads of the Bulgarian generals to Emperor Romanus as a sign of his loyalty to the Byzantines. Thus we see a continuous cycle of dynastic strife amongst Vlastimir’s successors, stirred on by the Byzantines and Bulgarians, who were effectively using the Serbs as pawns. Whilst Bulgarian help was more effective, Byzantine patronage seemed preferable.

Simeon made peace with the Byzantines to settle affairs with Serbia once and for all. Frustrated by his inability to defeat his smaller neighbour militarily, the Bulgarians resorted to trickery. In 924, he sent a large army accompanied by Caslav, son of Klonimir. The army forced Zaharije to flee to Croatia. The Serbian zhupans were summoned to recognise Caslav as the new Prince. When they came, however, they were all imprisoned and taken to Bulgaria (as was Caslav). Much of Serbia was ravaged, and many people fled to Croatia, Bulgaria and Constantinople. Simeon directly incorporated Serbia into the Bulgarian Empire, so that Bulgaria now bordered Croatia and Zahumlje. He then resolved to attack Croatia, because it was a Byzantine ally and had sheltered the Serbian Prince. At the battle of the Bosnian highlands, Croatia’s King Tomislav defeated the Bulgarians, whilst Prince Michael of Zahumlje maintained his principality’s independence. Hupchik calls Zahumlje the "other Serbian state" of the time. (As well as remaining Symeon’s ally, he fostered good relations with Croatia and the Byzantines. He was appointed protosparius by the Emperor, and possibly also ruled over Travunia and part of Duklja. He is last mentioned c. 940 AD.)

The Bulgarian subjugation of Serbia was for only three years. After Symeon died, Caslav Klonimirovic (927- c. 950s) led Serb refugees back to Serbia. He secured the allegiance of the Dalmatian duchies and expelled Bulgarian rule from central Serbia. After Tomislav’s death, Croatia was in near anarchy as his sons vied for sole rule, so Caslav was able to extend his rule north to the Vrbas river (incorporating the tribes of the Bosna river basin). During this apogee of Serbian power, Christianity and culture penetrated Serbia as the Serb prince lived in peaceful and cordial relations with the Byzantines.

However, strong as it had grown to be, Serbia’s power (as other early Slavic states) was only as strong as its ruler. There was no centralised rule, but was a ‘confederacy’ of Slavic principalities. The existence of the unified Grand Principality was dependent on the alliegence of the lesser princes to Caslav. When he died defending Bosnia from Magyar incursions (sometime between 950-960), the coalition disintegrated. The various zhupans and princes previously loyal to Caslav undoubtedly tried to carve out their own realms, falling into conflict with each other.. We do not know the details, and we do not know the names of any rulers- perhaps because no one was prominent enough. We do know that in the 990s, Dioklea rose as the new centre for a Serbian principality, ruled by Prince Vladimir. However, by 997, Serbia, Duklja and much of the southern Dalmatian coast, and Bosnia were subordinated to Samuel’s Empire, before the Byzantines re-captured the entire Balkans in 1018. Serbia was governed by a strategos presiding over the Theme of Sirmium, which encompassed the various Serb lands. Forts were maintained in Belgrade, Sirmium, Nis and Branicevo. These were, for the most part, in the hands of local nobility, which often revolted against Byzantine rule. In 1030, an independent Slavic principality arose in Duklja, which succeeded in liberating central Serbia (which then became known as “Raska”) c. 1080.

Rise of Duklja

‘Dioklea’ refers to a region which became an independent and powerful state in the eleventh century. It was settled by Slavic peoples, including Serbs, mainly during the 7th century. Its core territory roughly corresponds to the modern state of Montenegro. Byzantine chroniclers mention that the Avars also settled part of Dalmatia. Being a mountainous region, much of the indigenous (pre-Slavic) Balkan population was able to take refuge and survive in the area. Led by Slavic ‘archonts’, the peoples fused and took on a new tribal name- the Diokletians- derived from the major city of the region - Dioclea.

Little is known about Duklja prior to the late 900s. Our main source, Constantine Porphyrogenitus, mentions virtually nothing apart from stating that Duklja was settled by "Slavs" and was ruled by ‘the emperor of the Romans’. The eastern part of modern Montenegro was a direct part of the Serbian Principality (c. 840 onwards). The coast and its hinterland was ruled by the Byzantines, with a notable presence of Byzantine cities such as Bar and Dioclea. Seals excavated in Montenegro mention that Peter (Gojnikovic) was the ‘Archont of Diokliteja’. Since he ruled c. 900 AD, he perhaps expanded his realm further toward the coast, and Duklja became a province of the Serbia. It remained a part of the Serb principality until the death of Caslav Klonimirovic.

In the anarchy after Caslav’s death, one Jovan Vladimir out-contested other nobles and rose be the ruler of a ‘renewed Serbian state centred on Duklja’. Fine suggests that he also ruled Travunia and some part of inland Serbia. His uncle, Dragimir, ruled over Zahumlje. Vladimir’s pre-eminent position explains why Emperor Basil approached him for an anti-Bulgarian alliance. With his hands tied by war in Anatolia, Emperor Basil required allies for his war against Tsar Samuel, who ruled a Slavic empire centred on Macedonia. In retaliation, Samuel invaded Duklja in 997, pushing through Dalmatia up to Zadar, and incorporated Bosnia and Serbia into his realm. After defeating Vladimir, Samuel reinstated him as a vassal Prince. We do not know what Vladimir’s connection was to the previous princes of Serbia, or to the rulers of Croatia- much of what is written in the Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja about the genealogy of the Dukljian rulers is mythological.

Around 1016, Vladimir was murdered by Vladislav, Samuel’s brother. The last prominent member of his family- his uncle Dragimir-was killed by some local citizens in Kotor in 1018. That same year, the Byzantines had defeated the Bulgarians, abolishing their empire. Bulgaria, Serbia, Duklja, Bosnia and Croatia were all annexed by the Byzantines.

Byzantine hegemony and Struggle for Independence (1020-1050)

The Byzantine victory over the Bulgarians was a critical development in Balkan history. For the first time since the 6th century, the Byzantines ruled most of the Balkans. Not much is known about Serbia in the 11th century, it was probably under the jurisdiction of the strategos (governor) of Sirmium - Constantin Diogenes, the Duke of Thessaloniki. Some historians suggest that Duklja was ruled directly by the strategos of Dyrrachium, whilst others posit that a native prince (whose name has not survived) was allowed to remain, ruling as a Byzantine vassal. Either way, the Slavic nobility was under Byzantine control.

In 1034, one Stefan Voislav (a.k.a. Dobroslav) was a prominent noble in Travunia. He stopped paying homage to the Byzantines and defeated the Dioklean ban loyal to the Byzantines, taking Dioklea for himself- joining Duklja and Travunia in personal union. The Byzantines retaliated by sending in troops from Dyrrachium, and captured Voislav who was taken prisoner to Constantinople. He managed to escape and began a guerrilla resistance from Duklja’s mountains. He defeated several Byzantine expeditions and liberated most of Duklja. A Slav rebellion centred on Belgrade, organised by Peter Delian in the late 1030s, worked in Voislav’s favour by diverting attention from Duklja. He used this to assert rule from his capital in Shkoder, extending his rule from Duklja to Travunia and a part of Zahumlje. He sieged the Byzantine city of Dyrrachium and held the lands surrounding it.

In 1042, another Byzantine attack was defeated. The Byzantine’s had sent a ‘coalition’ comprising of vassal Slavic chiefs to fight Voislav. The party consisted of a chieftan from the region of Bosnia, Knez (Prince) Ljutovid of Zahumlje and the Zhupan of Raska. Fine suggests that under Byzantine dominance, ‘Raska’ (roughly centred on what is now central Serbia) and 'Bosnia' (the region between the Drina and Bosna rivers) came into existence as Serb states under heavy Byzantine vassalage. Voislav won a great victory against his attackers. He overthrew Liutevid and placed Zahumlje entirely under Dukljan rule. Duklja was undoubtedly the leading Serbian state.

The ‘Kingdom of Duklja’ (1053-1100)

Voislav probably died in 1043. Of his 5 sons, Mihajlo eventually secured rule by 1046. He was an apt diplomat- he fostered good relations with the Byzantines by marrying one of the Emperor’s relatives and was appointed protostrator. He also entered diplomatic relations with the western powers by marrying one of his sons, Constantin Bodin, to the daughter of the Norman governor of Bari. Michael conquered Raska in 1060s and assigned one of his sons, Petrislav as ruler, ousting the local pro-Byzantine zhupan. In 1072, he supported another Slav rebellion in Macedonia by sending a force led by his son Constantin Bodin. After initial success, The Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja claims that Bodin was elevated as Tsar Peter III of Bulgaria. A Byzantine retaliation resulted in Bodin’s capture, but Venetian mercenaries freed him.

At some point during his rule, Michael acquired the title of King. Most scholars place this date to 1077, when he a legate from the Pope referring to him as the King of Slavs. However, Curta suggests that Michael may have been King as early as 1053, since he proclaimed himself ‘King’ sometime after receiving the Protostrator title from the Emperor. But formal recognition as a King required acknowledgement either by the Pope or the Byzantine Emperor. Either way, he was King by 1077.

When Michael died in 1081, he was succeeded by his son Bodin. The Normans attacked Byzantine south Dalmatia, capturing Dyrrachium and Ragusa. Bodin was expected to aid the Emperor at Dyrrachium, instead he remained idle (possible as part of a pre-conceived plan with the Normans) and watched the Byzantines get utterly defeated.

During his early rule, energy spent consolidating his rule and meddling with Byzantine-Norman matters diverted Bodin’s attention from other parts of his realm. The ‘’Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja’’ notes an expedition into Bosnia and Raska. Since his father, Michael, had already captured Raska earlier, it must have slipped out of Duklja’s control, and we do not know what happedend to his brother Petrislav. Bodin successfully marched into Raska and placed his cousins Vukan and Marko (the sons of Petrislav) as zhupans. He also captured Bosnia, and placed one of his courtiers, Stephen, to rule in his name. Although Bodin was recognised as King of Duklja and Dalmatia, there is no evidence to suggest that Bosnia, Zahumlje, Duklja and Raska were incorporated into an integrated kingdom. Each region retained its own hereditary nobility, but were under the political and military sway of Duklja.

Decline

By 1085 the Byzantines got the upper hand in their wars with the Normans, recapturing Dyrrachium and Ragusa. In 1090, they punished Bodin for his impudence, possibly capturing him for the second time, and not much is known about him subsequently until he dies in c. 1101. Raska, Zahumlje and Bosnia probably broke free from Dukljan vassalage.

With Bodin gone, his Norman wife, Jaquinta feared that Bodin’s nephew, Branislav, would try to seize power before her young children could take the throne. She ordered the arrest of Branislav and his family and Branislav died in captivity, whilst his other 6 brothers and sons found asylum in Ragusa. Thus in the haste to claim the throne, seeds of family hatred were planted amongst the extended family. After Bodin died, his half-brother Dobroslav gained the throne of Duklja. Seeing a weak Duklja, the Byzantines started to meddle, sending Kopocar , one of Branislav’s exiled brothers to capture the throne. He managed to get assistance from Vukan of Raska, and together they beat Dobroslav. However, there was a falling out between Kopocar and Vukan. Vukan drove out Kopocar, who then died in exile. The Dukljan nobles then elected a Vladimir, yet another relative, who ruled in peace as a Byzantine vassal. But Jaquinta had not given up. After Vladimir died, she had Dobroslav (who was still in jail) castrated and blinded in case he were to gain the throne, thus securing the throne fro her son Djurad, c. 1114-18. She had gained support from an anti-Byzantine faction of nobles. Branislav’s family again fled to Byzantine Durazzo. There they gained support from the Byzantines, who ousted Djurad and improsined jaquinta. Grubesa, one of Branislav’s sons, was placed on the throne in 1118. He ruled peacefully until 1125. Djurad had fled to Raska, and secured the support of the new Raskan Grand Zhupan- Uros. Uros was aligned with the Hungarians, and was anti-Byzantine. He invaded Duklja and placed Djurad back on the throne. Yet another Byzantine intervention ousted Djurad for the second time, capturing him, and he died in captivity. Gradinja, one of Grubesa’s brothers was placed as King- the last ruler to hold such a title in Duklja. He died a natural death in 1146, and was succeeded by his son Radoslav. Radoslav only bore the title Knez (Prince). Duklja’s long internecine strife was devastating for its status, as it was reduced back to a Principality dependent on Byzantine support, and was increasingly losing territory to Raska. Radoslav was left ruling over a small strip of land on the Dukljan coast (From Kotor to Ulcinj). By 1166, much of Duklja was part of Raska, and in 1186, Nemanya annexed Duklja in its entirety after defeating the Byzantines and their puppet prince, Mihailo (Radoslav’s successor, and Nemanya’s nephew).

Religious affairs

In the 10th century, following the Synod of Split, Split gained jurisdiction over much of the Dalmatian coast, except southern regions (including most of Duklja) which were under the Archbisphopric of Durazzo. However, Split’s preeminent position was soon challenged by other cities vying for metropolinate status- Bar and Dubrovnik (Ragusa). The East-West Schism would have great impact upon Serbia, not only religiously, but also politically. Since Serbia was positioned at the border zone between Roman and Constantinopolitan jurisdiction, Serb rulers tried to exploit this rivalry to their advantage.

The Slavs along the southern Dalmatian coast (except, roughly, the southern hald of Duklja) were under the jurisdiction of Rome, via the Archbishops of Split, Bar and Ragusa. The rest southward and in the Serbian were under the Patriarch of Constantinople via the Archbishops of Ohrid, Sirmium and Dyrrachium. Mihailo‘s prerogative was to establish an autocephalous Serbian Church- an independent state requires an independent church. For political reasons, he turned to Rome, since at the time he was in less than amicable relations with Byzantium. Michael presumed that the Pope would jump at the chance to expand his jurisdiction in southern Dalmatia, but Michael’s wish was not easily forthcoming. Although some studies have stated that the request was granted in 1067, it seems that the cited bull is not authentic.

It was not until 1089, under Bodin’s rule, that Bar got raised to an archbishopric, as a reward for Bodin’s support of the Pope against the antipope. The Bishops of Kotor, Ulcinj, Svac, Skadar, Drivast, Pula, Serbia, Bosnia, and Tribenje were suffragan under Bar. Zahumlje and Bosnia were under the see of Dubrovnik (Ragusa) at the time. However, much of Bar’s new territory was only theoretical, as only some churches were willing to recognize Rome. Fine points out that although Bar remained a Roman Catholic Bishopric through the middle ages, the majority of Serbs (including most of the coastal population) remained Orthodox.

Rise of Raska.

In the 1090s, inland Serbia (ie Raska) was ruled by Vukan, the same Vukan put in power by Zetan King Bodin. With Zeta’s decline, Raska became the most prominent Serb state. Henceforth, many scholars equate Raska with Serbia (although it was only one of the Serb states). Vukan styled himself as Veliki Zhupan (Grand Duke) of Raska. Under him were a series of local zhupans, who were autonomous as far as affairs within their own zhupa (county) were concerned, but owed loyalty and military allegiance to Vukan.

From 1090, Vukan began pushing into Imperial territory, firstly entering Kosovo. However, each time the Byzantines were able to humble Vukan by a show of force, and he would re-affirm his vassalage (even giving his son, Uros, as hostage in 1094). Vukan, was becoming a prominent Balkan figure, and soon became more powerful than the rulers of Duklja.

In 1000 AD, the Magyars were Christianised, and their nomad confederacy was transformed into a powerful European Monarchy. They would later have much contact with the Serbs, with a mutual influence each others’ policies and, therefore, histories. By the mid 11th century, Hungary was a major power and began pushing into the Balkans. In 1070, Hungary conquered Sirmium from the Byzantines. The Hungarian occupation of Srem had little effect on daily lives of the local populace, who were Orthodox Slavs. By 1102, Hungary defeated the last Croatian King, thus adding Croatia and Slavonia to its territory. In the same move, it took Bosnia; and by 1105 it had captured the Dalmatian coastal cities as well.

For the next century, the Raskans were involved in the many Hungarian-Byzantine wars. In 1115, Uros I succeeded his father Vukan. During the war of 1127-29, the Serbs aligned with the Hungarians and captured the city of Ras, an important administrative centre of the Byzantines and the seat of a bishopric (under the Ohrid archbishop). This was an important conquest, as it became the seat for Serb rulers. This is how the region became dubbed as Raska.

The Serbs established dynastic ties with the Hungarians, and were quite influential in the Hungarian court -especially during the reign of Bela II “the Blind”. Bela had married Uros’ daughter, Jelena. When Bela died, Jelena and her brother Belos ruled as regents on befalf of her young son - Geza. Belos was appointed as ban of Slavonia- Croatia in 1142. The alliance was extended to include the Normans as well- traditional enemies of the Byzantines.

In 1143, Manuel Comnenus became Byzantine emperor. By the time of the next Byzantine-Hungarian war, Uros II had succeeded his father Uros I. However, the rule of Uros II was far from secure as the Byzantines continually suppressed Raskan expansionism and ousted Uros II and several of his brothers (including Desa, Primislav and Belos) numerous times. For example, when Uros II accepted Byzantine vassalage, he was overthrown by a pro-Hungarian contingent of the Serbian nobility in favour of Desa. In turn, the Byzantines overthrew Desa and placed Uros II back as Grand zhupan, but allowed Desa to rule over Travunia and the Zetan zhupa of Duklja. By 1162, Desa was the Zhupan of Raska again (possibly for the third time). However, in 1165 he was arrested by Emperor Manuel’s forces on charges of treason against the Empire.

For the greater part of the 1100s, Raska had little to show for all the warfare and dynastic intrigues. It had gained little territory and was still politically subordinate to Byzantium. Having made Raska a (not very loyal) vassal, Manuel’s next objective was to place his preferred candidate on the Hungarian throne. In 1162, King Geza (Uros’ grandson) died. The Byzantine candidate was Stephen IV (a younger brother of Geza), who briefly usurped the throne from the legitimate successor, Stephen III - Geza’s son. Belos (the son of Uros who had been Hungarian regent for his nephew Geza) supported Stephen III, the legitimate king. However, the Raskan zhupan, who was a Byzantine vassal, had to support the usurper. Emperor Manuel decided to compromise, and recognized Stephen III as King. However, he made a stipulation: Stephen IIIs younger brother, Bela III was to go to Byznatium, be betrothed to Manuel’s daughter, and succeed Stephen should he have no heir. As part of ths treaty, Bela III was to receive the appanage owed to him by the Hungarian King. It had become customary for the non-Heir prince to receive an independent banovina to rule- this was usually Croatia. Yet, again war erupted in 1165, over disagreements in territory. Manuel argued that Srem (the Fruska Gora area) was part of Bela’s Croatian territories, whilst the Hungarians continued to occupy it. After two battles, the Byzantine’s occupied Srem, capturing Belgrade, Zemun and Sirmium. Due to a diplomatic misunderstanding, fresh conflict broke out again in 1166. In addition to sccuessfully defending Srem, the Byzantines pushed through Bosnia and captured much of Hungarian Dalmatia- Klis, Solin, Trogir, Sibenak, Split and “the country of the Kacici” (what had been known as Pagania), amongst others. At the same time, their Venetian allies captured much of northern Dalmatia, including Zara. Thus Byzantines now ruled Croatia, Srem and the Dalmatian coast (either via their Duke, Constantine Dukas, or their ally, the Venetian Doge).

In 1172, Stephen III of Hungary died childless. Bela III peacefully acquired the throne, and kept his oath of alliegence to Emperor Manuel. Historians merit Manuel as the last great Byzantine Emperor. Thus in the 1160s and 70s, the Byzantines ruled over most of the Balkan Slavs: directly ruling Macedonia and Bulgaria, as well as Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Dalmatia by way of vassalage.

Beginnings of a Kingdom

During this time, despite Serbia’s involvement in Hungary’s conflicts with Byzantium, the Serbs gained little territory as each time the Byzantine were able to pacify them. In 1166, there was yet another change of rule in Serbia. Desa, possibly having done something to displease Manuel, was deposed for a second time, being replaced by one Tihomir – the son of Zavida (a brother of URos II and Desa, who was based in Hum). Tihomir ruled along with his brothers Stracimir, Miroslav and Nemanja. Nemanja, the youngest, ruled from Toplica, and became close to the Byzantine Emperor. Nemanja raided the Dalmatian coast and took possession of Kotor, then defeated his brother Tihomir, proclaiming himself Grand Zhupan in 1166. However, Emperor Manuel was quick to take action against his disobedient vassal in 1172, and after a brief imprisonment, Nemanja swore alliegence to Manuel.

Like Bela III, Nemanja kept his loyalty to Manuel until his death in 1180. When Manuel Komnenos died, his former vassals (Nemanja, Bela and Ban Kulin from Bosnia) saw no further obligations toward Byzantium, and Nemanja openly declared his alliegence to the Hungarian King. Serb fightrers bolstered the ranks of the Hungarian drive southward to Serdica. Nemanja resumed his annexing of the Dalmatian coast, pushing on Dubrovnik (which was held by Normans at the time). He acknowledged its independentce, but ruled all the surrounding territories, including Hum- where he placed his brother Mirsolav as prince. He captured Bar, the stronghold of the last prince of Duklja- his nephew Mihailo. Mihailo fled, and Nemanya placed his son Vukan as ruler of Zeta (Duklja). Southward, his control stretched down to Nis, Kosovo and the lands around Serdica (Sofia, Bulgaria).

A Byzantine counter-offensive in 1192 resulted in a Serb defeat, forcing Nemaja to yield some of his southern territory, yet his control over southern Dalmatia remained unchallenged. He had managed to unite all the Serbian territories – the coastal principalities (Zahumlje, Travunia, Duklja) and ‘baptised Serbia’ – excepting Bosnia, which was now under the supreme rule of the Hungarian King. This essentially cemented Bosnia’s independent development. He then gave up his title in 1196 to his son Stephen, and became a monk in Mt Athos in Greece, taking the name Simeon, and joining his son Ratsko (St Sava), where they founded the Chilander monastery. They successfully secured the recognition of an autocephalous Serbian Orthodox Church. Many monasteries were built, and Orthodoxy was emplaced as the official state religion. Nemanja died in 1199, and became a cult figure for all Serbs, the founder of a “sacred dynasty”.

In 1202, civil war broke out in Serbia. Nemanja had chosen his second son, Stephen, as his successor, because he was the imperial son-in-law. Vukan – Nemanja’s eldest son- was only Prince of Zeta. Vukan tried, unsuccessfully, to gain a Crown from the Pope in 1190- although the Pope referred to him as the “illustrious King of Duklja and Dalmatia”. Wishing to be Grand Prince, Vukan overthrew Stephen (with Hungarian help). But by 1005, Stefan was again grand Zhupan, having received help from Bulgaria’s Tsar Kalojan. By this time, the balance of power was changing in the Balkans. The Byzantien Empire was declining. A revived Bulgarian state (the Second Bulgarian Empire) pressed the Greeks, capturing Belgrade in 1185 and pushing into Macedonia and Thrace. This coincided with the disastrous effects of the Fourth Crusade which divided former Byzantine territories into many small Latin Kingdoms.

Stephen I turned his diplomatic attention to Western Europe, compared to his father who owed his ascension to the Byzantine Empire. Stephen’s aspirations at receiving a royal crown by the Pope were forestalled by the Hungarian King’s opposition, who saw Serbia as their vassal. If Serbia’s rulers were to gain a crown by a universal authority such as the Pope, it would make Serbia Hungary’s equal. Finally in 1217, a papal legate brought a crown to Stephan, transforming Serbia into a (unified) Kingdom, encompassing pretty much the same lands occupied by his father. Stephen referred to himself as the “first-crowned King” – “Prvovencani”. Peace, for the most part, existed with his brother Vukan, who was Grand Prince of Duklja.

The Autocephalous Archbishopric

The territory that was now unified, consolidated, and elevated to royal status was divided between the religious jurisdictions of Rome and Constantinople. The central area was governed by the Ras and Prizren bishoprics – who were under the Ohrid Archbishopric, which itself was subordinate to the Patriarch of Constantinople. The coastal areas were under the Archbishoprics of Bar, Ragusa and Split- who conflicted with each other over jurisdiction.

Serbia eventually aligned with Constantinople. Apart from obvious geographic proximity, it was the Patriarch that granted to autocephalous status of the Church. Additionally, they were more tolerant toward Slavic liturgy, whereas the Pope expressly forbade Slavic Liturgy back in the Synod of Split in 927. Sava was the first archbishop, and gained the request that his successor would not have to come to the patriarch’s seat for their consecration, but would be locally elected. Sava compiled a rulebook pertaining to matters of church administration. Seven new Bishoprics were erected, and the seat of the new Serbian Archbishopric was in Zica. Thus the autocratic King was complemented by an autocephalic Church: an ideal of harmony based on the Byzantine Empire (symbolised by the double-headed eagle used by the Eastern Empire, as well as Serbia and Russia). The Jurisdiction of Orthodoxy thus moved all the way to the Bosnian border (whose Bishop –although accused of heresy- was under the Catholic Archbishopric of Ragusa at the time) and the borders of the coastal towns.

Kingdom, ctd

The new status of Serbia did not secure stability. Stefan’s son and successor, Radoslav (1227-33) ruled as son-in-law of the new Byzantine Emperor, Theodore. However, with Theodore’s defeat by Tsar John Asen II from Bulgaria, Radoslav’s position was shaken and he was deposed in favour of Vladislav (who was engaged to Asen’s daughter). Southeastern Europe was then shaken by the Mongol invasions. Hungary and Bulgaria were most affected, but even Duklja and Dalmatia were hit by raids. Vladislav was then overthrown by Stefan Uros I (1242-76) (Another son of Stephen Prvovencani). He centralized royal authority, and removed Vukan’s son, Djordje, as Prince of Duklja. He no longer granted family appanages, and decreased the power of local aristocrats. For example, the sons of Nemanya’s brother Miroslav- Prince of Hum- where mere landed nobility who ruled over Popove Polje and the northern banks of the Neretva. Feeling deprived of his rightful appanage, his son Dragutin overthrew Vladislav (withthe backing of his wife’s father - King Bela IV of Hungary). Dragutin then handed rule over to his brother Milutin (1282-1321) after injuring himself (although this was later a bone of contention, as Dragutin claimed it was only a temporary handover). He retired to the region of Macva, where he inherited lands from his Hungarian mother. He initially ruled the region as a ban of the Hungarian King, but later became an independent King during internal turmoil in Hungary. His Kingdom of Macva included the town of Sirmium, Branicevo and lands in north-eastern Bosnia (around Sol (Tusla) and Usora). Meanwhile in the south, Milutin renewed anti-Byzantine sentiments, and captured northern Macedonia and Skopje – a strategically important city that was well fortified, urbanised with a heavy Greek presence. He conquered central Macedonia definitively in 1283, an area that included the vital north-south routes such as the military route from Constantinople to Belgrade. The two brothers acted in concert by taking Branicevo from Bulgarian lords, and made the Lord of Vidin a vassal. Dragutin may also have been ban of Slavonia for a short time.

There were a few administrative changes during this time, Ras was abandoned as the capital; in stead capitals were based in Kosovo and Macedonia (near Prizren and Skopje). The seat of the Archbishopric also changed, from Zica to Pec. Effectively, the brothers doubled the size of Nemanja’s state, although they were really two separate Serb Kingdoms – Syrmia and Serbia. They were largely cooperative, although there was a period of conflict from 1301-11, ending when Dragutin sued for peace as he found himself defending his land against a new Hungarian king intent on re-consolidating the Hungarian lands. The conflict may have been related to Milutin’s marriage to the Byzantine Emperor’s 5-year-old daughter Simonis. As seen previously, being the imperial son-in-law may have placed Milutin’s descendents in priority for succession. Simonis’ presence brought much Byzantine influence into the Serbian royal court- in the form of Byzantine-style dress, titles and ceremonies

There was much economic development in Serbia during this time. The newly acquired southern regions which had been previously under Byzantines were urbanised, wealthier and more populated. Naturally Kosovo and Macedonia became the centre of the Serbian state. The northern border towns such as Belgrade and Sirmium, which were once great during Roman times, had been neglected and sparsely populated, not surprising given that they had for so long been a theatre of war between Serbia, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Byzantines. Nevertheless, they were slowly re-populated and developed. Apart from Slavs, groups of Vlachs, Kumans and even Armenians were settled. This was coupled with improvements in agricultural techniques. Peasants worked the land and handed over crop to the lord, while he provided lodgings, protection and gave back part of the harvest. The raising of livestock played a vital role in the economy. Herdsmen were usually the descendants of native Balkaners (Vlachs). Salt, fabrics, wine and spices were traded. With the arrival of Saxon miners; lead, silver and copper production began in earnest. This injected the economy with revenue, created jobs for communities, and led to the development of minting of currency. The first Serbian currency (yperper) is mentioned in 1214. Trade treaties were established with Dubrovnik, governing the free movement people and trade. The consequences of these economic improvements were evident in the form of Milutin’s increased military strength, exceptional building activity and the luxury of his court.

As Dragutin died (1216), he appointed his son Vladislav II to be his successor in the northern realm. However, Milutin imprisoned him with the intent to take all the lands for himself. This provoked a war with Hungary, since the Hungarian King considered the northern lands legally his. This war was fatal for Milutin, he lost part of the northern lands, and he died in 1321. Vladislav II was freed, and the lands of his father were restored to him. A succession struggle between his sons Konstantin and Stefan Uros erupted. Stefan Uros won, killed his brother, and was crowned as the “young king” – “Decanski” in 1322. During this strife Vidin threw off its suzerainty and the Hum was lost (the local lords had began to act independently and provoked a war with Bosnia’s Ban, who captured the area).

Despite this, Serbia rose as the pre-eminent power in the Balkans. Byzantine was in inevitable decay, and Bulgaria’s 2nd ‘empire’ barely recovered from the Mongol raids, and was fragmenting by boyar regionalism. Stefan Uros was drawn into struggles within the Byzantine Empire. His father-in-law was being overthrown by his grandson. Uros supported the rightful Emperor, while Bulgarian Tsar Shishman supported the young contender. The alliance of the new Emperor and Shishman, viewing the Serbs as a their common primary threat, attempted a two-pronged attack on Serbia’s Macedonian border. However, they were crushed, where Uros son Dusan distinguished himself. Serbia secured its hold over Macedonia. Bulgaria, although not officially a vassal, was subordinate to Serbia’s political interest (Uros placed his nephew on the Bulgarian throne). However, a conflict arose between young Dusan and his father. Perhaps sensing that he, like many in the past, may be passed over succession in favour of a half-sibling from Uros’s marriage to the old Emperor’s daughter. Incited by his lords, he captured his father, who died shortly after in mysterious circumstances.

Dusan was to be the ruler of a Golden Serbia. However, upon ascending to the throne in late 1331, he had to deal with internal problems before further enlarging his Kingdom. He had to quell renegade lords in Zeta and Albania. He accepted the new Bulgarian Tsar, Ivan Alexander (1331-71), who overthrew his cousin Ivan Stefan, and he yielded Hum to Bosnia (he had made a successful siege, but had to re-direct attention south). His opportunity to meddle in Byzantine affairs came in the way of a defector who sought help against the new Emperor Andronicus III. Dusan conquered all of Macedonia to the walls of Thessaloniki.

The Serbs were keen to deliver the coup de Grace to Byzantines- Constantinople seemed ripe for the picking. Decanski however had reservations, which angered his son Dusan and alienated the Serb Bojars, who ordered his father capture and death. The northern border regions between Serbia and Hungary remained an area of conflict (Macva), while Sol was taken into Bosnia by Stepjan II Kotroman, who was Vladislav II’s maternal nephew.

Hungarian Coalition

Don't you think it's about time to have an article on the Hungarian Coalition? —Nightstallion 23:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Peter Gojnikovic

Nice article. I just made a few grammatical sentecne changes. About thos seals found in Duklja mentioning Peter as the Archont. We do not know for sure that they are referring to our Peter Gojnikovic, do we ? ? It could be any Peter Hxseek (talk) 23:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

So you think the old 900 AD map was better ? I like the new one. I think it is more accurate.

by the way Pax. Where are you/ is your family from ? Hxseek (talk) 22:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I see. You are a Konavlian, lol. I was born in Australia, but my dad is from Lubljiana and mum is from Bitola, RoM. Hxseek (talk) 23:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

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Often experienced problems

When I use Misplaced Pages (especially this one) I am experiencing strange problems with my computer. The Zone Alarm notifies me constantly. Since you are a computer-expert what should I do about it. -- Imbris (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

No I use an another programme. -- Imbris (talk) 18:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Compromise

Why do you not read the changes which I made when undoing content. -- Imbris (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Compromise is not possible if you continue with italization of latin text and in the same time protest when cyrilic text is italicized. I accepted that cyrilic is first - nevertheless the fact that Laws and panels of institutions in Montenegro are latin text.

Stop inserting that Serb_flag.png Stop denying the golden double headed eagle (at least where we have sources for it) Stop deleting the violet flag without proofs

Stop demeening the symbols with continuing writting that something means someting. E.g. Constitutionaly sancioned means that the constitution should change if the symbols wished to be changed. This applies to every state which has a Constitution but in the article where you insert that curiosity this is attacking the symbols and weasle wording for the tension to change the Symbols.

There could be more stuff we should reach a compromise on but this is a start.

Imbris (talk) 18:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I have not falsely quoted anything. I have quoted to you that there has been a golden-yellow double headed eagle from that official site of Montenegro. From that Italian site I have quoted to you that Nikola continued to use that violet flag and from that FotW site I have quoted the sources that other users (non ex-Yugoslav) quoted. Also in the description of the file I quoted the author who researched it (a very famous vexillologist). So not one source I used is corrupt or false.

Then I suggested to forget about that violet flag for the benefit of the compromise. You thaught that I would abandon all of my editing for that NemanjicCrnojevic stag. This was very impolite to presume anything. I thaught that since NemanjicCrnojevic flag is not properly sourced that it would be enough to sacrify violet flag for that flag. But no you inserted Serb_flag.png and tryed to delete that flag which is in its proper place, you deleted the Nikola I flag (white bordered one) and a few more. Is this how you think this compromise will go. I do not think so.

Also if you must add that SDP nonsense this will not go in the first paragraph, please source your statements. If SDP nonsense goes in the article then you should stop your constitutional amendments mentioning and simmilar (independentists nonsense).

Imbris (talk) 19:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

What's up with that image? Probably you should post a request for third opinion or for comment or something instead of edit warring. Please, take this as an advice, not accusation. Anyway, I hope you'll reach a decision in the interest of all. --Eleassar 14:06, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you think you're right (I do think so) and can prove it, you should use formal dispute resolution methods. Regards, --Eleassar 12:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Greater Slovenia

You are clearly spying me and interveening where ever I go. You haven't looked at the sources and havent participated in the editing of this article. Why did you vote the way you have, why do you accuse me of OR when the majority of your work has not been referenced, sourced or even produced a link. Your motto has been writen on your talk page that you write what you know is correct and cannot be bothered with sourcing each and every statement you make. -- Imbris (talk) 18:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

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Church-Slavonic & Serb-Slavonic

The first written, literary language of the Slavs was created by Saints Cyril and Methodius, who invented the first Slavonic alphabet—Glagolitic; and it was based on the local Eastern South Slavonic dialect from Thessalonica area, where Cyril and Methodius were from. In Slavistics, that Slavonic literary language is called Old Slavonic or Old Church Slavonic. As Old Church Slavonic was used all over the Slavonic universe, it was soon influenced by local Slavonic languages from different areas. Thus, different local versions of the Old Church Slavonic literary language were formed. Those versons are called redactions or recensions, and are collectively referred to as the Church Slavonic language, in constrast to the original Old Church Slavonic, giving that Church Slavonic is still used as liturgical language in various Eastern Orthodox churches, whereas Old Church Slavonic is extinct, i.e. it evolved into Church Slavonic redactions.

As of the (Old) Church Slavonic redactions, they vary linguistically in different Slavonic literatures. In Serbian mediaeval literature, the spoken Serbian language has influenced the Old Church Slavonic written language, thus making the Serbian redaction of Church Slavonic (the so-called Serb-Slavonic language — not to be confused with later Slavoserbian). In this redaction, the yers have merged, the nasal vowels disappeared etc., as those were characteristics of the Serbian vernacular. Otherwhere, other Slavonic vernaculars influenced other recensions, for example the Russian vernacular has influenced Old Church Slavonic to form the Russian recension, and so on. --George D. Božović (talk) 16:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Tomislav II

What has made you change your mind. - dwc lr (talk) 19:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

If as you say you read through the discussion you see the rule/reign business has been discussed. No one says he ruled as the country was ruled by his Prime Minster. De facto the state existed de facto it was a monarchy de facto he was the king. He is referred to in published sources as Tomislav II and King of Croatia people can try and re write history but that is how he is referred to why should Misplaced Pages go down a different route because in some peoples opinions' he was a "pretender" which is not supported by a single source. I think it incredible people are opposing based on personal opinions and not based on what published works refer to him as. - 10:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

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Old Contact Group statement

That was an interesting quote you dug up. I remember back when that was the default position of all countries, including the United States. For that matter, at one point in the early 90s virtually every country supported the "sovereignty and territorial integrity" of the SFRJ...lots of lives were lost until the international community's policies adapted to new circumstances. Policies change as circumstances change. Envoy202 (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I actually meant to say "SFRJ" -- there was a phase of Yugoslavia's disintegration back in the early 90s Washington and most European capitals were fully committed to keeping Yugoslavia together. As we now know in retrospect, it simply wasn't possible to keep that country in one piece -- quite a bit of violence was tolerated in the name of keeping the country together. Looking back on the history it seems virtually inevitable taht after the first parts of Yugoslavia went their own way, its other constituent parts (Kosovo included) were destined to achieve their independence. This is one of the many tragedy's of Yugoslavia's demise: the death of a great, multi-ethnic country that was killed by poisonous nationalism. What was that quote that you shared with me? Where did it come from? A Contact Group ministerial statement? I'm fascinated by the history and evolution of the international community's policy towards Kosovo. Envoy202 (talk) 00:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Bosniaks

You seem to know more about this than me, so your input would be appreciated. Some anon IP user has some form of a "Bosniaks aren't Slavs" idea, based on what seems to be one genetics publication. AFAIK, everybody has disagreed with him on the talk page. But he won't listen. BalkanFever 01:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe user:JdeJ, after my suggestion, took him to AN/I after some "Russian interests" crap at Talk:Slavic peoples. I think I might initiate an RfC tomorrow. Maybe. Srećen Veligdan btw. BalkanFever 10:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ministry of foreign affairs

Can you write me address and telephone number of Ministry of foreign affairs building in Belgrade ?--Rjecina (talk) 10:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. It is time for my new travel in Belgrade.--Rjecina (talk) 10:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

It is important and it is right time (election time).....--Rjecina (talk) 11:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I need to make few documents in Serbian Ministry of foreign affairs and during travel I will visit Belgrade cousins.--Rjecina (talk) 11:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It is all nice (about Montenegro) but you know that in controversial articles (or heated discussions) we need internet sources and not "obscure books". Because it is very small possibility that somebody from another state is having "your books" all books are obscure and we need internet links.--Rjecina (talk) 08:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I have seen internet book. It is POV and I can show you many POV statements.--Rjecina (talk) 10:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you please enter discussion on Talk:Timeline of Yugoslavian breakup. We are having discussion about date when timeline must end. Thanks--Rjecina (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo and International Diplomacy

I think any disinterested observer would agree that international diplomacy has not distinguished itself in the Balkans. From the early U.S. disengagement (the years when it was assumed that "the hour of Europe has dawned") to the messy last phases of the wars in Bosnia/Croatia (think: Operation Storm) to the unsuccessful diplomatic efforts to stop Milosevic's rampaging in Kosovo. Nevertheless, I think the last phase of international diplomacy on Kosovo's future status have actually been successful, especially considering the remarkable constraints involved, especially the negative and self-serving role of a revitalized, nationalist Russia. In international relations there is an overwhelming and obvious preference to keep states from dividing up. It really is extraordinary then that so many European countries overcame this preference and instead reached the conclusion that the only way out of the Kosovo morass was to recognize its independence. I think that shows the power of the arguments in favor of Kosovo independence, even with all of their well-known and well-acknowledged downsides. Serbia's behavior both before and since independence -- its thinly-disguised contempt for Kosovo's Albanians, its unwillingness to negotiate creatively about any status outcome other than their preferred "substantial autonomy" model, its post-independence actions and statements to destabilize Kosovo and promote institutional ethnic partition -- has certainly not advanced the cause of those who think Kosovo should be forced to remain indefinitely in the same country as Serbia. So should the international community's policy have remained static, never changing from pronouncements made in 1998? Obviously, a majority of European statesmen, joined by the United States and other major countries, believe it should not. Envoy202 (talk) 14:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I've previously heard your argument of "well, what's the rush? Why no just let this conflict fester for twenty or thirty years like Cyprus or Palestine?" In addition to being vaguely immoral (imagine consigning an entire people to live in perpetual limbo!), that argument discounts the fact that in Kosovo the status quo was unsustainable. It wouldn't have lasted another twenty years, at least without another blowup that would have resulted in lost lives and driven the parties further apart. Kosovo's UN administration was simply not designed for the long-term governance of a territory -- no such international structure could operate indefinitely without incurring the wrath of the people it was assigned to administer. I also think it's difficult to hold up those other long-term disputes (e.g., Cyprus) as models of successful conflict resolution! It would be irresponsible for international diplomats to willfully turn Kosovo into the next Gaza Strip. European countries, those most exposed to new instability in the Balkans, were not going to let that happen. Envoy202 (talk) 14:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

As for your reference to Serbian "patriots," I'm sure nationalists in Serbia, just like nationalists everywhere, will use whatever grievances (real and imagined) to propel themselves to power. The ultra-nationalists can point to "Western conspiracies" or even say that they reject the notion of Serbia ever joining the club of Western, market-oriented, liberal democratic societies. So what should the international community have done in response? Should international diplomats coddle Serbia's nationalist dreams, telling Serbs that they can go on denying the 1990s and ducking responsibility for dealing with the legacy of the Milosevic era? Should international diplomats have pretended that Serbia's "substantial autonomy" model for Kosovo ever had a shot at being functional or fair? I have had many Serbs agree with me that the West's "tough love" approach to Serbia was the only viable way of shaking the society out of its nationalist torpor. Mind you, I tend to be an optimist on Serbia. I know enough Serbs (usually under 35 year-old) who see through the nationalist b.s. on which leaders like Kostunica have based their careers. I know enough young people in Serbia who regret the energy and effort expended to hang on to Kosovo, a poor chunk of earth inhabited by people who (with some understandable justification!) really don't like Serbs that much. The next few years will be critical for Serbia's democratic future and I am reasonably confident that Serbia will emerge a stronger country, more secure in its identity. Envoy202 (talk) 14:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Vice-FM Delevic's statement

See http://www.law-europe.eu/serbien-auf-dem-weg-in-die-eu/ -- in case your German isn't good enough, the most important bit is:

"Important for me was the question whether Serbia could possibly recognise Kosovo , if that would prove a necessary condition for closer cooperation with the European Union. While it is not to be expected that the EU would intervene in Serbia's interior affairs in this way and make the recognition of Kosovo an official condition, but Mrs. Delevic replied that Serbia would likely ultimately recognise Kosovo as a state to achieve full cooperation with the EU."

It really surprised me, and I had to ask for confirmation (as you can see in the comments section below), but it seems she really said that. —Nightstallion 16:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Is this good or bad news for the election? —Nightstallion 11:10, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, the vast majority of people are in favour of the SAA signature and international media expect the event to help the Democrats. —Nightstallion 20:50, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Kako ci Pax. I know you are busy with other articles, but have u had a chance to look at the Serb History stuff yet ? Hxseek (talk) 02:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Kostunica and SAA

Are you sure he's eating his words? This still seems to indicate that he's anti-EU and anti-SAA... Not to mention that he's clearly an absolute idiot if he claims the status neutrality of the SAA is tied to the EU member states renouncing their recognition of Kosovan independence. Ahem. —Nightstallion 16:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXVI (April 2008)

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Ejjj

Nismo se odavno čuli. Htio sam da ti čestitam srećan Đurđevdan. Sve najbolje, brate! --Prevalis (talk) 01:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Svaka čast na članku o Jovana Plamenca.

Želimir Orešković

Hey Pax, could you help in translating this page? At least some of it so that it isn't deleted? Cheers, BalkanFever 03:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Appeal

I hate to have to tell you this, but I really wouldn't hold my breath expecting the appeal in the Haradinaj case to succeed. If you haven't yet read the judgement, I advise you to do so, you'll find that there is actually no room for the prosecution to maneuver. Barring some damning new evidence. Which maybe they have found. But I sincerely doubt it. Not wanting to sound like your average Balkan conspiracy theorist, but I believe the appeal is being made more for reasons of face-saving and political considerations (appeasing the Serbian government which is still sheltering Mladic) than any real hope of success. However I suppose I could be proved wrong. I simply won't, as I stated before, hold my breath. Davu.leon (talk) 14:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Pax, please read the judgement. That's my first point. Secondly, although your figures of one third, one third and one third are nice and round, you're pulling them out of thin air. I expect more of you. Thirdly. General Bozedar Delic didn't stand because both he and the prosecution knew full well that if he did he would have been exposed as a war criminal himself, much as he was in the Milosevic trial. He didn't stand because the PROSECUTION decided not to call him.

As far as witness intimidation, I would point you to the fact that not once, NOT ONCE in the judgement is it alleged that Haradinaj, or people operating under the instruction of Haradinaj engaged in 'witness intimidation'. In fact the judges have consistently cited Haradinaj's good behaviour, and their belief that he has in no way contributed to difficulties in this case. What they have said, is that there was a 'climate of fear'. I don't doubt it. Kosovo is a rough place, and it is well known what happened to witnesses in the Limaj case. However, there has never been even a slightly credible suggestion that incidents of the same scale or gravity occurred in the Haradinaj trial. The very worst allegation we can see is that one man went to have a quiet chat with another and urged him to 'do the right thing'. That was illegal, and it was monumentally stupid, (especially when you consider that that witness testified anyway, and the judges deemed his evidence to be essentially worthless,) and the men who did it should and have been called to account. HOWEVER, it falls a long way short of proving the kind of campaign of intimidation that you are alleging.

And that's the core of the matter really. There have been allegations made against this man, Haradinaj, and he has had a trial. The allegations have been proved to be insubstantial. Why are you so convinced he is guilty, in the absence of any hard evidence? What are you basing your belief on? My beliefs in this matter are based on verifiable fact, not rumour or supposition. Still I maintain that it is possible I could be proved wrong. You might want to re-examine your own opinion, and have a look at how rationality fits into it. I know you are not blinded by nationalism, so just ask yourself this question; why do you hate Haradinaj so much? Perhaps you have some first-hand knowledge of which I am unaware, but without that, I hate to say it, but it seems that you are simply swallowing a line of propaganda that was instituted by the Milosevic government, and has been sustained by the uglier brand of nationalism that I am sad to see is still a powerful force in Serbia, (not to mention Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo,) today. With respect, Davu.leon (talk) 15:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a postscript on 'murdered' witnesses. None were. Kujtim Berisha and two friends were run over by a 67 year old Serb called Aleksandr Ristovic whilst crossing an unlit road at night. Ristovic was arrested, tested for blood alcohol and found to be many times over the legal limit. He has never been charged with being a master assassin in the pay of Ramush Haradinaj, for obvious reasons.

One othr witness, a man in his 70's or 80's I think, died from a chronic medical condition, which is documented back over 15 years. Now unless Haradinaj has a time machine and a very elaborate sense of how to kill a man, I think we can disregard this too.

No other witness died. Thats it. I defy you to name even one. So if you're telling me that a third of the 100+ witnesses were killed, you're going to have to come up with a VERY interesting explanation of where the 33 odd corpses are buried, who killed them, and how they did it, because frankly, it sounds like a fantasy to me. Davu.leon (talk) 15:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Very quickly because I have to go, but I will try to respond fully later.

1. I do not approve of witness intimidationa t all - as I stated the two Kosovars who tried to stop a witness from going to the Hague should be punished for it, and will be. This is good. It is important to have a valid, turthful international court.

2. Absolutely and unreservedly yes, B92 is lying, even if it is only lying by association, in re-printing the lies of Blic. Get the list and I will go through each name with you.

Davu.leon (talk) 16:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

In brief, according to the prosecutor in Milosevic, Delic ordered his artillery to fire on civilian buildings, and also ordered his troops to 'take no prisoners', both violations of the Geneva convention, and thus, war crimes. I'll look into my notes for more details when I get a chance. Davu.leon (talk) 19:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Speak of the devil... http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=05&dd=09&nav_id=50098 Davu.leon (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed it, but Delic is accused of directly ordering the murder of at least 42 people. (B92 misleadingly refers to 'several dozen' without stating exactly how many dozen - this figure of 42 is merely the amount of bodies actually recovered - not the amount allegedly killed.) Ramush Haradinaj was never charged with directly issuing an order to kill anyone, merely with being part of a 'joint criminal enterprise', whose other members committed crimes for which he was, by association, equally responsible. Added to this, the number of bodies who turned up at the Radonjic canal, (at least those who were not subsequently identified as having been last seen alive in the custody of Serbian police,) was 37.

Now clearly it is ridiculous to try to score points about which alleged war criminal is 'worse' - and given that Haradinaj has been acquitted, and that Delic enjoys the presumption of innocence, it is perfectly acceptable to state that they are, as of now, as innocent as each other. However, the crimes alleged against Delic are, while certainly less sensational than the allegations made against Haradinaj, of a greater scale in terms of number, and far more grave, as they would fall under the doctrine of command responsibility - going to prove a widespread or systematic attack by the Serbian government on the Albanian population, exactly the type of thing that two trail chambers have now found that the KLA as an organisation was NOT engaged in. (For more on this point, see the judgements in Limaj et al, and Haradinaj et al. Essentially they state that while members of the KLA committed criminal acts, these acts were not pursuant to a general policy, but rather the acts of individuals acting on their own accord - though it is possible that there may have been criminal subgroupings within the KLA itself.)

I therefore find your assertion that Delic is somehow "more innocent" than Haradinaj somewhat puzzling, though I'd be glad to hear an explanation...Davu.leon (talk) 17:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Any luck with that list of names, by the way? Davu.leon (talk) 10:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Serbian parliamentary election, 2007

One simple question: did the Kosovo Albanians boycott that election? --Checco (talk) 07:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

How long are Kosovo Albanians and parties boycotting general elections? Where can I find the electoral results of general elections for Kosovo? --Checco (talk) 10:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Every single one since the beginning.

I shall do my best to grab a hold of them, though it's likely we'll have to wait (for technical difficulties) up to a week to hear the results from Kosovo. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. What about the last time? --Checco (talk) 11:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

A small number more voted (as you see), but most still boycotted. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I meant what were the results of the general election of 2007 in Kosovo... --Checco (talk) 13:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

See Kosovan parliamentary election, 2007. The local elections were held at the same time, if you're asking that, it should not be difficult to rename the article's word "parliamentary" to "general" and expand it. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 14:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to know simply what were the results of the 2007 Serbian parliamentary election in Kosovo and where can I read the results of that election and of previous Serbian parliamentary elections in Kosovo. --Checco (talk) 14:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

It will be seriously difficult to grab a hold of that (I'll do my best), since the Republican Electoral Commission will publish full-scale data by all electoral spots and online reports this time for parliamentary elections for the first time. But I know that this time SRS took most votes, while DSS-NS took in 2007. In 2003, SRS received most votes. Older election results (in any case) will be (due to the known difficulties) probably impossibly to acquire. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 15:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much. --Checco (talk) 06:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Election table

We don't yet know how many seats will parties get within coalition so I count them per the party that is the leader of the coalition. Also GSS should be counted as they are now part of LDP and they took part in the last election on their list as well so there is no reason not to count them with LDP.--Avala (talk) 11:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Detailed results

There's lots of detailed results on B92, especially this one -- would be great if we could get a table comparing the votes received in Vojvodina, Central Serbia, Kosovo and nationally, if possible... Could you do that? —Nightstallion 20:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Message from Elfelix on 05/14/08

Hello. Hope you've been doing well.

I have one Misplaced Pages issue that I should be able to solve on my own, but that I can't seem to learn how to do it. My research in Misplaced Pages editing techniques either gets me nowhere, or over my head in intricate workings. This has been brewing for several months, so I decided to ask you about it.

A very long article should be split into thirds. I think maybe I rename it three times, then erase the pre-existing article, then erase the irrelevant parts from each of the three offspring. I'm not familiar with renaming, but I understand the move tab at the top starts the process. Would that do it, 1, 2, 3? Not knowing enough about the process, I'm hesitant to plung in and risk mucking up the article. Maybe I should just wing it?

Afterwords, there would be the re-routing to do. A year ago I think I figured that out.

Right now the article is: History of Tunisia. I would want to split it into: History of Tunisia: Ancient; History of Tunisia: Medieval; and, History of Tunisia: Modern.

Thank you, whether you have the time for this or not. It might get me to do something about it eventually, now that I've articulated it here.

All the best. Elfelix (talk) 00:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Federal Republic of Yugoslavia timeline

You can put deletion tag on this article. I will not oppose.--Rjecina (talk) 04:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I will be neutral because in my thinking we need to move that timeline to another name.--Rjecina (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

SPS won't join forces with DS?!

http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=3341032 True? —Nightstallion 12:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Disappointed?

No reason to be ;)

Although I do feel even better that you remembered me :) --Bolonium (talk) 19:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Once again, no :) --Bolonium (talk) 18:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Serbian parties

I would like to kindly ask you to answer to my four remaining questions in User talk:Nightstallion#Serbian parties. Thank you!

Talk:Tomislav II of Croatia, 4th Duke of Aosta

I undid this edit as you posted it in an archived discussion. You can post it somewhere else or start a new section on the talk page if you like. - dwc lr (talk) 14:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Cro

The Croatian Orthodox Church was divided into four episcopates, none of which had territory in Montenegro. People like Stedimlija, who spent the entire war outside of Montenegro, have little bearing on what the main religions in the country were. In fact, not only was Metropolitan Joanikije's work not disrupted, he seems to have gotten along relatively well with the occupiers.

I am not exactly sure what the Montenegrin National Council is. Google returns very few results in either language for it. Is it the same as the Montenegrin State Council (which operated entirely outside of Montenegro)? Or was it the collaborationist Montenegrin government (led by a Chetnik)? Either way it seems hardly likely that Croatian was in any official use. --Thewanderer (talk) 23:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Pozdrav

Imam jedno pitanje da ti postavim al je malo licne prirode, pa posto ne znam tvoj, ako mozes, javi mi se na "gianni.adsl@cg.yu".

Pozdrav, Bojan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bojan Grgurov (talk • contribs) 02:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

RC

Hello. A user from sr just has made articles about Red Croatia and expanded article Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja. I'm not expert for this matter and I believe You are neutral, so I ask You come to see it. -- Bojan  05:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello

Haven't seen you around, just saying what up!

This template must be substituted, see Template:Smile for instructions

Arkan and "krajina"

I don't think that Arkan ever heard himself about narentans.

I was talking about his speech during the Croatian War of Independence somewhere in Croatia. Then he mentioned "Krajina" as part the most western part of "United states of Serbia"

--Anto (talk) 11:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Serbia to Central Serbia

Why? Beam 13:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If there's a central Serbia though, than where's southern Serbia? Meh, I understand both ways, I wish there was a third option for describing what is to the north though. Beam 15:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

As a political separation it sounds good, but that part of the article is all about geography. I have no problems with it, but from a geographical pov it makes it sound as if there is a North, Central, and South. Beam 15:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXVII (May 2008)

The May 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.
This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 01:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Re

Sorry about that, I just can't believe how many of these guys come along each week! --DIREKTOR 18:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Joke

look this and this :) --Rjecina 05:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

We need to give that link to all "our" vandals and banned users so that they can write in peace :)--Rjecina (talk) 14:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for information. I have deleted everything about this from my talk page. I do not want to give stupid ideas to vandals. Maybe is best that you delete this ?--Rjecina (talk) 17:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No. I am lazy. It is not problem to download but then it will take too much space on my USB drive. I will download book after buying new USB drive--Rjecina (talk) 17:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Byzantine reports about Slavs are very funny. We both know about 10 century Constantine VII work, but you can imagine my surprise after reading in 1926 croato-serbian book "Prve godine ovog cara (1071) narod Srba kojeg također zovu Hrvatima...." or "Snova pobuniše se Hrvati i Dukljani (1075)..." Book is "showing" original source but it is on Greek language so it is not possible to for me to show that on wiki.--Rjecina (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I have been naïve in thinking that Byzantine Empire knows difference between Ortodox Serbs and Catholic Croats.--Rjecina (talk) 21:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

This is from book "Povijest Hrvata" from 1926. For Croatian events in 1069-75 period you can read article Petar Krešimir IV of Croatia which is speaking about Byzantine-Croatian "incidents"--Rjecina (talk) 16:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Help

Talk:Kosovo#( 1007 )

A little help please? Beam 15:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep going. While I understand the point about Canada, further explanation would do wonders. Beam 17:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I hope that you DO know that I love you. :) Beam 18:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh baby you, you got what I neeeeeeed. But you say that we're just friends! You say that we're just friends! OH BABY PAX! YOU GOT WHAT I NEEEEEEEEEDDDD! But you say that we're just friends, pax you say that we're just friends... OH YOU! YOU GOT WHAT I NEEEEEEEDDDD! :D Beam 19:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Madness

You can't go mad if you've been of madness the whole time. Beam 21:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Who the fuck entitled you? Beam 21:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Balkans

Joking aside I think you have a bit of a tainted view. After all, the people in the Balkans are still just human beings. All human beings have the ability to do some horrible shit in the name of whatever the fuck they want. Luckily there are also humans who thinks that's not the best idea! As far as the Balkans goes, I think it can only get better. As long as the Soviets...oops i mean Russians don't throw a hissy fit over Kosovo than it will be ok. The European Union literally bribes countries to behave through its economical benefit.

And you have to admit the history is pretty interesting! Beam 22:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I just watched a 6 hour documentary style thing about World War 1 and it's pretty amazing that a lot of the current strife in the Balkans existed in some form or another at that time. And really, WW1 was the beginning of Nationalism, in the broad sense, in Europe and the Balkans. Nationalism has led to such things we see today.... like claiming a direct link from a Kingdom in the iron age. ;) Beam 03:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Chatter

Your comments to Noah are very ignorant and arrogant. What Noah said that the Serbs are taught in school that prior to 1950 that Serbs attained a majority in Kosova is most likely the product of SANU; you know, the people who wrote about how Kosovar Albanians are "genociding" Serbs...the people that indirectly got Slobodan "the butcher" Milosevic in power. Anyways, believe what you want but the truth stands. Best regards, 'Ari --Kosova2008 (talk) 05:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Do I believe Noah? Is the Pope Catholic? Of course I do. You think up to 1950 Serbs were the dominant ethnicity than Albania "opened its borders" and all of a sudden Albanians came and killed Serbs and multiplied at a ratio to 10:1 to outnumber Serbs? The reality is that after WW2 Belgrade became an epic-center for Serbian renaissance and business and Kosovar Serbs (youth) went to work in Belgrade or study and got jobs and married an they didnt want to come back to the shitty Kosova. If you believe the SANU's explanation, my friend, that is sad. Kosova2008 (talk) 15:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

But he didn't say he did. You mis understood or are ignoring what he actually said! That's sad. Beam 15:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Noah since you are on a break to study for exams I will leave you at that, but I do recommend you do some reading on the History of Kosova. Cheers, 'Ari' --Kosova2008 (talk) 03:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't you...

How many hours did you use to translate my words... or have you become fluent in Albanian...Just wondering --Noah30 (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You keep surprising me but the translation was not any surprise since I knew that you understood Albanian very well. Or I should maybe say written Albanian. I don't think you can understand what an Kosovar Albanian says while he is talking. What do you use your Albanian to? The Serbian Government, translating newspaper articles for Tanjug Kosovo press service, BETA or something at a higher level?? I know that Serbs who speak Albanian are needed in Belgrade. --Noah30 (talk) 16:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Key Words, "Serbs who speak Albanian" not Albanian-speakers, pre-requisit is to be a Serb first, is the second requirement to oppose Republic of Kosova? Kosova2008 (talk) 04:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 09:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I hope you understand sarcasm. You are welcome to discuss with me in the future. I am very open minded and do not have anything against you. --Noah30 (talk) 11:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

NATO and SFRY

You can help in this discussion ?--Rjecina (talk) 22:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Sourced way better than your Serbian Empire and NemanjicCrnojevic mythical flags

Your behaviour borders harassment.

If you think that those sources are not valid try to delete. You would see very quickly that this is not possible because the sources are rock-solid and any admin (non ex-YU, ex-SU, CN, VN, CU, or simmilar) would agree.

Sources have been presented at the talk page but you continue to bicker because your main objective is to portray POV that MNE never had golden-yellow eagle on the flag - which angle is not neutral nor correct.

Imbris (talk) 23:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

User page

Hi Pax, how exactly do you want to fix up your User page? --DIREKTOR 13:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

k --DIREKTOR 17:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

btw: We're gonna win! Croatia 1:0 Germany :D --DIREKTOR 17:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I was just about to post, total humiliation! :D --DIREKTOR 17:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

;) --DIREKTOR 18:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yugoslavs

Hey Pax, I'd like to ask what you think about birthplaces of most famous people (singers, sportsmen, etc.) from those six countries in the Balkans. They were born in SFR Yugoslavia, but there doesn't seem to be much consistency in stating this. All Macedonians have SFR Yugoslavia, but it doesn't look like that for Croats (don't know about Serbs). I think a discussion might be in order. City-Republic-Yugoslavia, i.e. Skopje, SR Macedonia, SFR Yugoslavia in the infobox looks good, much like England, UK or California, US, but I don't know about the intro. Maybe something like Rebeka Dremelj? If it's OK I'd like this discussion in one place so we can point others to it (copy this comment to my talk page if you want it there :). Cheers, BalkanFever 12:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Lol I hadn't thought about that. Do you think they should be included? Maybe not in the intro, but probably in the infobox...BalkanFever 12:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

OK cool, I'll think about that one. Lastly, could you point me to other editors might be able to help put it into practice? Thanks, BalkanFever 13:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Re

!! finally. :D --DIREKTOR 18:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Re

Pax, I'm crying jebote, nemoj mi to radit! I'm gonna wake the whole building up if I start laughing! Do you realize this might even rival the Great "Bobo Smrade" Clip!? --DIREKTOR 23:24, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Podgorica Assembly again

About number of Green military forces writen on my talk page there are few questions:

• Source of this number is ?? (internet link not obscure book)
• Date or month when there has been 4000 soldiers, because we are having 1 situation during Christmas Uprising and another few months latter.

About elections my only comment is that they are not important. Only important things are elections of 1918 and few legal questions:

• Who is legal representative of Montenegro in 1918 ?
• Who is having legal right to write Montenegro election laws ?
• Who is having legal right to call Montenegro election ?

I am not 100 % sure who are person which that legal right but I am 100 % sure that this is not committe organized and financed by Serbia --Rjecina (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

We are having "obscure" 3 book posibility:

• "Good faith" mistakes (example Vladislav ban of Slavonia)
• "bad faith" mistakes (example user:Velebit and his books)
• Bosnian, Croatian or Serbian truth

Because of this 3 possibility for NPOV users it is not possible to believe "obscure book" versions of events, but we need to have internet links when there is controversy or hard to believe statements (example herceg Stephen of Bosnia).

In my thinking 3 question about Montenegro are very simple :) --Rjecina (talk) 14:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

After looking internet evidence I can confirm that Serbs has been relative majority in Banat, Bačka and Baranja in 1918 on territory which has Yugoslavia recieved in peace agreements. On other side they have been minority on territory for which self-proclaimed Great People's Assembly of Serbs, Bunyevs and other Slavs from Banate, Backa and Baranya has voted because to this census numbers you need to add Pecs and Temišvar because of which Serbs are becoming minority.--Rjecina (talk) 21:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This is census data for discussion in article Creation of Yugoslavia.--Rjecina (talk) 22:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Kosovan Serb Assembly

Could you write a short stub? It just opened today. —Nightstallion 14:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Re

Well, to be honest, that website is such a mess I avoid ever using it. Its amazingly hard to find even the simplest info... Anyway, good luck with your search, you'll certainly need it. --DIREKTOR 14:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Illyrians

Hi PAx. Yes, I would be interested in your book reccomendations Hxseek (talk) 09:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

dr.robertg@gmail.com

I KNOW!

I'm worried... --DIREKTOR 19:54, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Unbelievable... --DIREKTOR 21:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

1991 ethnic map

Found it on the net. It should show ethnical structure of BiH in 1991, it is not much different from 1981 ethnical map and it should also be posible to fint it on the libraries concering 1991 BiH Census. What do you think is wrong with it? Ceha (talk) 23:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm right now looking the differences:
There is more muslim setlements in:

• western part of Bosnia (Bihać, B.Krupa and Sanski Most)
• central bosnia (where prior serbian settlments became muslim in Zenica, Bugojno, Žepče and Kakanj and partialy in Zavidovići and Maglaj municipalities)
• northern bosnia (Gradačac, Šamac, Modriča,Doboj)
• eastern bosnia (Bratunac, Srebrenica, Zvornik, Vlasenica, Kladanj, Kalesija, Olovo, Višegrad, Rudo, Goražde, Čajniče and Foča
• Sarajevo area (it's municipalities without Pale)

And the changes were prety large
And more Croat setlements in:

• Posavina (Šamac, Odžak, Brod and Derventa)
• Central Bosnia (N.Travnik, Kreševo, Gornji Vakuf)
• Herzegovina (Kupres, Tomislavgrad, Prozor, Konjic, Jablanica, Mostar, Neum, Čapljina, Trebinje)

Croat changes in central Bosnia are very small, in Posavina some of Serbian enclaves gained Croatian majority in northern Herzegovina serbian area in southern Kupres and northern Tomislavgrad became Croatian as uninhabited areas on the borders of those municipalities? in southern part of Prozor, northern parts of Čapljina croats gained majority in previously muslim areas, and in parts of Mostar and Neum?? (was there ever serbian settlement in that municipality?) and western parts of Trebinje previously Serbian areas.
All and all croatian changes are very small exept in Herzegovina and that is on previously uninhabited or sparselly inhabited moutinous areas.

All of those differences could be explained by demographic changes, but CIA map is almost indentical as 1981 map. Put some sign that it could be uncorect? Do you known any way hove could it be chechked in Yugoslav Statistical? Ceha (talk) 19:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

is a hand made map, but it clearly ilustrates problems with 1991 map (Milići municipality is a good example). Few questions:

• Do you have ethnic settlment map for whole of BiH?
• Is there any way to check Yugoslav Statistical for BiH 1991?

Ceha (talk) 21:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Excellent job on the diocese changes

Will be revising the diocesan structure to reflect the recent changes. Nice to see someone taking the time to update so quickly! :) Benkenobi18 (talk) 20:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Re. Kosovo in Montenegro intro

Hello Pax. I don't think that Kosovo can be described as part of Serbia anywhere on Misplaced Pages, even when mentioned in countries that haven't recognized its independence. I think that the best way to remain neutral (especially in articles of countries that border Kosovo, which have proven a major headache for finding neutral ways for mentioning a border with Kosovo) is to simply mention "Kosovo". By dropping all references to the dispute when not strictly necessary, we're probably guaranteeing NPOV by omission. I also don't think it's useful to go WP:CRYSTAL on the way we refer to Kosovo. Serbia won't be recognizing anytime soon, so we have a long lasting dispute ahead regardless of how many or which countries have recognized or will recognize. Regards, Húsönd 01:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Ljudevit Posavski

The purpose of tags is to guide editors to improve the article. Please do not remove them unless you have provided sufficient references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.32.75 (talk) 19:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Did you even bother to read the tags before you deleted them? The book you are using as a reference has 360 pages and not all of them are about Ljudevit. That is exactly the problem I am addressing, along with the lack of in-text citations. You should be more specific about your references. Why are the tags bothering you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.32.75 (talk) 22:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Re

Oh, I did not know that... anyway I suppose I'll revert myself.

My talkpage? I'm experimenting with various fonts, I'll return to the old one probably :) --DIREKTOR 17:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

k, maybe they can be spaced...

Yeah, I used this font to see if I'll get used to it... I didn't :P --DIREKTOR 17:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Grb-Cetinja-glava.gif)

Thanks for uploading Image:Grb-Cetinja-glava.gif. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Sdrtirs (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Enciklopedija

Enciklopedija link is not OK. Do you know other links ?--Rjecina (talk) 18:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks but it will not be needed. All wiki discussions are about 7-10 century or Yugoslav period. My intention has been to use this for discussion, but more or less Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs agree about that time period--Rjecina (talk) 20:13, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Montenegro

Nadam se da znas srpski jezik,jer ja ne znam engleski dovoljno dobro,pa mi je mnogo lakse da pisem ovako. Ne znam cemu takva tvrdoglavost sto se tice clanka o Crnoj Gori.Dobro znas,kao i ja da je postojao znacajan otpor srpskoj vlasti,da li je on bio vecinski ili ne,to ne mozemo znati,ali je jasno da clanak,ovakav kakav je sad,nije ni n od neutralnog.Ja smatram da su srpske trupe okupirale CG,ti smatras da su je oslobodile,zasto ne mozemo da se dogovorimo i stavimo nesto neutralno,kao:Serbian troops entered Montenegro i isto tako za podgoričku skupštinu,jer kompletan CG narod definitivno nije izabrao takav način ujedinjenja po kome ce njihovom kralju biti zabranjeno da se vrati u zemlju,i po kome ce se zauvijek ukinut svaki pomen imena Crna Gora.Previse je mrtvih bilo oko ovog pitanja da bi se sad time zezali. Zato te lijepo molim za malo neutralnosti.Ne znam sta je hvalilo tekstu koji je prethodno postojao na wikipediji o Crnoj Gori i koji je bio potuno neutralan. Ako ne zelis to da uradis,trazim da se stavi da je osporena neutralnost clanka(neutrality disputed). Pozdrav.

1. The Serbs. C M Cirkovic, 2004, Blackwell Publishing
2. John Fine, Jr. The early Medieval Balkans
3. South-eastern Europe in the Middle Ages, 500-1250. Florin Curta
4. Fine
5. Fine
6. Cirkovic
7. Fine
8. The early medieval Balkans
9. Southeastern Europe in the middle ages
10. Fine
11. Fine
12. Curta
13. Fine
14. The Balkans. From Constantinople to Communism. Dennis Hupchik
15. Fine
16. The Balkans
17. The early Medieval Balkans
18. Fine
19. Fine
20. Fine

• Montenegro