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could you please do me a favor?

Hello,

I am a master student at the Institute of Technology Management, National Tsing Hua University, Taiwan. Currently I am wrapping up my master thesis titled “Can Misplaced Pages be used for knowledge service?” In order to validate the knowledge evolution maps of identified users in Misplaced Pages, I need your help. I have generated a knowledge evolution map to denote your knowledge activities in Misplaced Pages according to your inputs including the creation and modification of contents in Misplaced Pages, and I need you to validate whether the generated knowledge evolution map matches the knowledge that you perceive you own it. Could you please do me a favor?

1. I will send you a URL link to a webpage on which your knowledge evolution map displays. Please assign the topic (concept) in the map to a certain cluster on the map according to the relationship between the topic and clusters in your cognition, or you can assign it to ‘none of above’ if there is no suitable cluster.
2. I will also send a questionnaire to you. The questions are related to my research topic, and I need your viewpoints about these questions.

The deadline of my thesis defense is set by the end of June, 2008. There is no much time left for me to wrap up the thesis. If you can help me, please reply this message. I will send you the URL link of the first part once I receive your response. The completion of my thesis heavily relies much on your generous help.

Sincerely

JnW 05:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure, happy to help. My email address is elonka@aol.com --Elonka 05:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, here is the link

Pretest webpage

If you have any question during pretest, please contact me.

Please finish it before 25 June. Thanks a lot. :)

JnW 15:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a pretty java-heavy page, and the instructions are not very clear. I tried it a couple times, and it kept crashing. --Elonka 03:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is a java applet-embedded page, and as I know, Java 6 didn't integrated with Firefox 2 very well. I don't know what your browser and the version are, but now I am using Firefox 3 with the latest update of Java 6 and everything goes well. Maybe you can try to update your browser and Java 6 to the latest version. Hope that would help you. Thank you. :)

JnW 12:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, the questionnaire is completed. Link:

evaluation questionnaire

It is no longer java-embbeded. Don't worry about it would crash your browser. :)

thanks for doing this questionnaire, and I hope that you will feel interested about this. :)

JnW 04:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Dei patris immensa

Oh, is that allowed on Wikisource? There's no rule against "original research" there? I suppose I should fix up the translation, since it is currently filled with question marks and nonsensical English! Adam Bishop (talk) 03:51, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Christopher Dawson made English translations in 1955 of the first two letters of Innocent IV. The book "The Mongol Mission" was republished in 1980 (reprinted in 1995) as "Mission to Asia". I have added the references to the two articles DPI and CMS. (The book is reviewed on Jstor and the review explicitly indicates that these particular letters were translated; it is also mentioned in the link to David Wilkinson's website on Innocent IV.) Some months ago, you asked me on my talk page about Latin translations. I presume that you were referring to these texts, as well as VAV / VCV. Mathsci (talk) 10:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Excellent find, Mathsci! Thank you. And yes, when I mentioned Latin awhile back, I was referring to those, and others at List of papal bulls. --Elonka 15:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The whole of Dawson's book is available to subscribers on www.questia.org. Here is the start of Dawson's translation of DPI:

"God the Father, of His graciousness regarding with unutterable loving-kindness the unhappy lot of the human race, brought low by the guilt of the first man, and desiring of His exceeding great charity mercifully to restore him whom the devil's envy overthrew by a crafty suggestion, sent from the lofty throne of heaven down to the lowly, region of the world His only-begotten Son, con­substantial with Himself, who was conceived by the operation of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a fore-chosen virgin and there clothed in the garb of human flesh, and afterwards proceeding thence by the closed door of His mother's virginity, He showed Himself in a form visible to all men. For human nature, being endowed with reason, was meet to be nourished on eternal truth as its choicest food, but, held in mortal chains as a punishment for sin, its powers were thus far reduced that it had to strive to understand the invisible things of reason's food by means of inferences drawn from visible things. The Creator of that creature became visible, clothed in our flesh, not without change in His nature, in order that, having become visible, He might call back to Himself, the Invisible, those pursuing after visible things, moulding men by His salutary instructions and pointing out to them by means of His teaching the way of perfection: following the pattern of His holy way of life and His words of evangelical instruction, He deigned to suffer death by the torture of the cruel cross, ... "

This is flowing English. This is what you uploaded to wikisource:

"The immense benevolence of God the father, considering with ineffable piety the fall of mankind, which came to ruin by the sin of the first man, and wishing with great love to mercifully revive him whom diabolic envy has made prostrate by deceitful suggestion, has sent his only-begotten son, sharing the same nature with him, from the highest throne of heaven to the lowest dirt of the world, he who, conceived in the womb of the pre-elected virgin by the grace of the Holy Spirit and endowed there with the clothing of human flesh, thenceforth appeared to all, having exited from the enclosed gate of his mother's virginity. For human nature, although it was reasonable, ought to have fed on the eternal truth as its own best meal: (but the penalty of sin, detained in mortal chains because of this, was reduced from decreasing, so that through interpretations of visible things it tried to understand the invisible things of a reasonable meal????). The creator of that creature became visible in our fashion not without a change of nature, so that, made visible, he might recall those following visible things to himself while invisible, informing men with his teachings of salvation, and, showing them the way of perfect life with his teaching as proof, after his examples of sacred conversation and his speeches of angelic instruction, he deigned to suffer death under the torture of the harsh cross ..."

The second translation, in its current form, has various serious problems. It seems hard to justify how it could be used on WP. Mathsci (talk) 00:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The translation continues:

"that, by a penal end to his present life, He might make an end of the penalty of eternal death, which the succeeding generations had incurred by the death of their first parent, and that man might drink of the sweetness of the life of eternity from the bitter chalice of His death in time. For it behoved the Mediator between us and God to possess both transient mortality and ever-lasting beatitude, in order that by means of the transient He might be like those doomed to die and might transfer us from among the dead to that which lasts forever.

He therefore offered Himself as a victim for the redemption of mankind and, overthrowing the enemy of its salvation, He snatched it from the shame of servitude to the glory of liberty, and unbarred for it the gate of the heavenly fatherland. Then rising from the dead and ascending into Heaven, He left His vicar on earth, and to him, after he had borne witness to the constancy of His love by the proof of a threefold profession, He committed the care of souls, that he should with watchfulness pay heed to and with heed watch over their salvation, for which He had humbled His high dignity; and He handed to him the keys of the kingdom of heaven by which he and, through him, his successors were to possess the power of opening and of closing that kingdom to all ..."

Mathsci (talk) 00:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The neat thing about Wikisource, is that multiple editors are allowed to work on improving a translation. We unfortunately can't use the book translation (because of copyright issues), but if you see specific locations where Adam Bishop's or Aramgar's existing translations could be improved, by all means feel free to dive in and tweak.  :) --Elonka 04:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Other authors (Robert Norman Swanson, Caroline Walker Bynum) quote the whole or part of the passage I've indicated (with citations) in their texts, so I am not sure that you're correct about this particular issue of copyright. The fact that the translation already appears on your own WP talk page must presumably already be a copyvio (it is pages 72-73 in Dawson). Please remove it a.s.a.p. if you know for sure that that is the case. Mathsci (talk) 06:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, remove what? Your above post? You are welcome to delete it if you would like. --Elonka 06:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I can see that quoting these translations on WP, with citations, is permissible and does not violate copyright. This makes wikisource, with its copyright restrictions, not so useful here. Many of the papal bulls have been translated elsewhere, often by religious institutions, and are accessible on the web. In the particular case of the 2 letters of 1245, Dawson's book seems the best source at the moment. It would be interesting to locate a published translation of the third letter. (I actually came across a new copy of Peter Jackson's scholarly book on the Mongols yesterday, but, despite a brief description of the 3rd letter, it does not cite a translation.) Mathsci (talk) 08:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I know some Wikisource editors who would disagree with you.  :) --Elonka 12:06, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

If I didn't know better...

...it would appear that you are wikistalking me, as at User talk:JohnGalt65. Thanks again for taking the time and effort to keep an eye on all of the various fronts here. Alansohn (talk) 15:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I prefer to call it "closely mentoring", but okay.  :) --Elonka 15:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Semantics. Alansohn (talk) 02:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

It's all about the intent.  :) If you'd ever like to contact me off-wiki, I can give you more info about why this particular case is so interesting to me. --Elonka 04:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Off-wiki message has been sent. Alansohn (talk) 15:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

request for help, follow up

Hi Elonka, I left you a message 2 weeks ago which you promptly replied to... but which I didn't see :/ The message was here .

As you requested here are some examples to verify what I was speaking about... to recap, the editor in question was told that the source he disliked was valid as a reference, so he went through deleting all reference to it himself under various pretexts.

1. Comment: “Removed "Zionism on the Web" link. This site has been spammed onto other article pages.”

Link has been there since article creation, it was added by an Admin, Humus sapiens see and it was there for years until the user removed it as part of a mass removal exersize. This is a common theme.

2. Comment: "Removed "Zionism on the Web" link. This site has been spammed onto other article pages." (note the comment is identical to the one above!) It was added and in the article with no complaints for 2 years, it is relevant. Added:

3. Comment: The source documents are useful, but the slanted intros are more than a bit problematic. Does anyone know of other sites offering the originals, without editiorial comment?

The is irrelevant when it is providing a link to the primary source below. Further what this editor refered to as "slanted" is a biography of a historical personality... I don't see how it can be refered to as slanted as their is no controvery over any of the facts. It is not only a false claim, it is an irrelevant claim.

4. Ber Borochov Comment: (none)

Here the user removed a source with no explanation. If an online source of a historical document is available, what excuse is there for the deleting the link? It makes Misplaced Pages less useful.

5. Comment: “Cancellation of boycott: removed dodgy statement from equally dodgy source”

This removed all reference to the peace vigil that took place outside the special meeting to cancel the academic boycott by the AUT in 2005. The site (which is mine) is a known resource center for material on the boycotts. The statement is one of fact (that an event happened), the comment is therefore somewhat disconnected to the edit.

6. Comment: It's not immediately clear why AJ6's criticism would be as notable as the ADL's or Brian Klug's

Content removed is about a statement by AJ6, a movement that represents British Jewish students in their final years before university. Their statement expressing the specific concern of these pre-university students in light of an academic boycott are relevant, topical and not able to be substituted. The press release is hosted in the archive with permission from the organisation concerned.

7. Comment: I doubt this is the best possible source that one could find on "dhimmi" status

Content removed is a reference to an on topic article by Dr Denis MacEoin, an expert in the field. It is written for Zionism On The Web, so can not be got from another source. Other articles could ofcource be given, but there is no valid reason for removing this one.

8. Comment: Here -- I'll add a more notable pro-Israel site in its place. I'm not against the inclusion of this perspective, just of the specific site in question.

This is a clear statement of his intent in the comment.

The content change: Adds a link to Jewish Virtual Library, this is following a complaint after he removed a link to source documents on Zionism stored at Zionism On The Web here.

There can be no grounds for removing that links as it is provides references to key documents on the topic. His extra link is not a substitute.

Summary In summary though, these are just a few of hundreds of deletions this user made. They did this only after an attempt at Wiki lawyering failed and resulted in other editors disagreeing with their claims of a lack of notability, reliability etc. Rather than except the views of the discussion they took unilateral action using false pretexts for removals. Individually these might look like mistakes, or perhaps look plausible enough not to justify further consideration... added together it is a serious case of vandalism, those spread across many articles. Oboler (talk) 22:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

FreepRipper and Fyunck

Both of these accounts are still being used, apparently in disregard of the original purpose of the block of these sockpuppets. See 1, 2, 3. Best regards. Tennis expert (talk) 22:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like he made his choice on a primary. I went ahead and blocked FreepRipper (talk · contribs) indefinitely. If you see any other accounts or anons pop up which you think are the same user, let us know. --Elonka 04:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute..... I have to read and then leave your box up FOREVER??? Is there a way you can make Tennis Expert leave me alone on my talk page? holy moly. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I placed the banner on your talkpage rather than your userpage, so eventually it can scroll off. Keep busy, and it won't be an issue. The category, however, is permanent. I also recommend making a userpage so your name doesn't keep showing up as a redlink. As for Tennis Expert, he has the right to contact you if you and he are both editing the same articles, and he needs to communicate with you about something (just as you have the right to communicate with him). Communications have to be WP:CIVIL though. If any are not, let me know. --Elonka 16:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Explanation

In fact, Svetovid made some controversial edits yesterday, that's why Nmate got a bit upset (not that I'd defend his behavior). He deleted a number of Hungarian names from articles as "irrelevant in English" but carefully left there the Slovak ones. He also went against the spirit of the new naming convention.
If he wanted to refer to that paragraph, he applied it wrongly to say the least. And we still don't know who this IP is basically doing the same across a number of articles. Squash Racket (talk) 05:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is in any way fair or encyclopedic. Squash Racket (talk) 11:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I have blocked the IP as a probable sockpuppet of User:MarkBA. As for Svetoid's edits, many of them look reasonable to me, and his rationale also makes sense, that if Hungarian names are to be re-added, that they should be included with an English-language source proving that it's a common name. If such a source is added, and Svetovid (or anyone) continues to revert, please post about it at the Experiment page, and we (myself, Shell Kinney, or EdJohnston) will take a look. --Elonka 15:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I think there is a problem here

I have an admin deciding to close out IfDs, using his own personal interpretation of NFC to evaluate and close arguments. After contacting Nc8200p to try and clear up what I thought was a mistake in an IfD discussion, he instead told me his personal take on IfD and suggested I go to DRV, which I have. I am getting the impression that wagons are circling, and the only one losing is the rest of us editors. Maybe give me your take on the situation? - Arcayne () 06:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

One last compromise

Can you help with the Elizabeth Bentley compromise. I have compromised and reduced the information to a footnote, and removed the link to Time magazine. Currently it is the only documented job in her biography. It is still being labeled as "trivia" and "non notable", despite appearing in Time magazine. Labeling info as "triva" is subjective, appearing in a reliable source is objectively notable, since Time magazine took notice of it. I also believe that stating that Time magazine published it "only" for some other reason constitutes "original research". Again it is a matter of objective reality (published in a reliable source) vs. subjective reality (Time published a piece of trivia). Again its become a matter of compromise (moving it to a footnote) vs. absolute deletion. Your input and guidance would be helpful. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Just how many articles are you and RedSpruce battling at? Would this really be the "last" one, or just one more in a long series of disputes? --Elonka 00:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

"Personal attacks must cease"

It sounds like a good policy, but forget it. If you make this a goal in and of itself, you will only make matters worse. I don't mean "you" personally; I many anyone with less than god-like omniscience.

The problem is that a great many insults come veiled in lies and distortions: "Ever since the WP:ANI that resulted in your being blocked for 3 days..." for example. Insult or not? It depends on whether that's an accurate description of the ANI and its results. And how might the insulted (we'll assume) party respond? "You're a damn liar" would be perfectly honest and correct, but some (not all) admins believe that all editors should be held to the Christ-like standard that no level of provocation justifies a personal (counter)attack. We'll leave that question aside. What if the insulted editor responds with "Your characterization of that ANI is laughably inaccurate." Some, with all the facts at their hands, might think that this is a remarkably civil response to a damned lie. Others, who don't have all the facts at their hands might think that the question of who is being civil and who incivil must depend on those unknown facts--what's the story with that ANI after all? Still others need read no further than the word "laughable", which sets off the "personal attack" light on top of their heads, and the matter is settled.

That's a bad way to do things. If your approach to rooting out personal attacks is just to keep an eye out for the Seven dirty words, you're going to spend a lot of time being wrong. Worse than that, you're going to end up rewarding those editors who have learned the slimy skill of painting over their insults with lies and distortions. Those who choose to remain honest, even in the face of their strong feelings of injustice, will lose out.

It was because the situation with RAN, Alansohn, and myself had deteriorated so much that I was suggesting the strict and punishable set of ground rules that prohibited any off-topic discussion whatsoever. This would have prevented all of the usual insults (painted over or otherwise), non-sequitur, circular arguments, willful illogic and other forms of stonewalling that have characterized previous attempts at discussion. IMO, you should have encouraged that idea, instead of playing find-one-of-the-seven-dirty words.

RedSpruce (talk) 21:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

In need of arbitration

Hello. I am not sure this is the right way to do it but I understood you can arbitrate in some cases. I am registered here for a few months and created mainly articles related to firearms technology, development and history.

I could bring a lot of informations unknown because of the barriers of language and secrecy surrounding such development in France. For these reasons, the French touch in this field was quite uncovered until recently the Armament Archives could be accessed and books appeared. On the other hand, I edited many articles because of inaccuracies. I added some informations to already good articles as well.

Recently, I made some edits related to http://en.wikipedia.org/Heckler_%26_Koch_G3 and brought some datas and pictures to make the history of the development better known and more importantly more accessible to the readers. For example, I added the missing period between the german experimental weapons in 1945 and the spanish development after 1950. this period saw the german technicians in France, they accomplished a major part of their work there. I posted cutaway views of the roller delayed locking to allow the reader to visualize the system the article was referring to under the "development" title. I replaced a 1988 picture irrelevant on a technical and historical point of view by pictures of the precursors of the G3 and technical pictures. The replaced picture was a low quality that did not even allow identification of the G3, I replaced it by a high definition picture with a crisp quality and placed it in the relevant part of the article related to variants.

Since then another member, Koalorka, started an harassment war by systematically removing my edits and complaining I removed an historically very important picture.

More over he obliges the reader to go back and forth between 4 articles by removing these pictures I posted all related precisely to the major technical and historical step that made the G3 what it is.

Please indicate to me what I should do to get out of this stupid war I am drawn into by only trying to bring a better quality information.

Thanks

Edmond HUET (talk) 00:13, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. Specifically, I am not seeing any discussion at the article talkpage. I would start there, and see if you can find a compromise. --Elonka 00:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I answered on the talk page.

Edmond HUET (talk) 10:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit Restrictions

Elonka, I was hoping you might reconsider and lift my edit restrictions for the Al Durrah page. I have created several stubs on my 'vacation' including Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Israel) , Israelinsider , Palestinian Centre for Human Rights , Kaleet River and am working on putting up something about Yom-Tov Samia shortly. I have learned a lot in my time off and would appreciate an opportunity to try again. Thank you. Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:29, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have been very impressed with the excellent work that you have been doing, especially in creating some much-needed stubs. Thank you for your efforts. I am lifting your editing restriction at Muhammad al-Durrah, and you are free to resume editing. I do still strongly encourage you to continue and find a balance, with no more than 50% of your edits being al-Durrah-related. Other than that, welcome back!  :) --Elonka 01:38, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Needing sources?

• From WP:NCGN:

  Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages

No sources needed for English usage; I hope I don't need to provide sources that Hungarians lived/live in Upper Hungary (today's Slovakia). Tankred had added a Slovak name to the city of Szeged where 0.1% of the population is Slovak.

• From WP:UE:

  The body of each article, preferably in its first paragraph, should list all common names by which its subject is known.(...)If there is a significant number of alternative names or forms it may be helpful to keep only the most common two or three in the first paragraph and a list of them in a separate section or footnote to avoid cluttering the lead

The subject is definitely "known" by the Hungarian name, English usage is not specified there.

What convention/guideline applies to buildings? According to Markussep's comment:

OK. Since Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (architecture) is inactive, WP:NCGN is the next best thing for buildings. "group of people that used to inhabit the area" would refer to a larger area than the building itself of course. (...)Markussep Talk 11:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

So we add names to the lead of buildings based on WP:NCGN? Or WP:UE?

Here exclusively the Hungarian names were removed from an article with zero references. Edit summary: "unsourced for 50+ days" (no citation needed tag placed earlier). Squash Racket (talk) 03:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I cautioned him about using {{fact}} tags before deleting things as unsourced. He's right though, that anything that's challenged and unsourced, can be removed per WP:V. If someone goes crazy with it, we can block them per WP:POINT, but if they're just challenging information in a few specific cases, the better course of action is to go and find sources. --Elonka 03:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I repeat: or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place does not require any proof of English usage, only proof for minorities living there. Squash Racket (talk) 03:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so provide a source which proves that then.  :) --Elonka 04:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

That was frustrating

Re: Teardrop trailer
The IP didn't explain what they were doing until after they received the final warning. I made sure I used the removal of content warning the first time, but if a user continues to do that without explaining what they're doing I usually just consider it vandalism. I think I did the right thing considering the circumstances, but thanks for the heads-up. --Closedmouth (talk) 03:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

You were definitely doing the right thing... My only constructive criticism here is about the terminology used. Or in other words, before using the vandalism word, think about, "Could I report this at WP:AIV"? They'll generally only take action on blatant cases of vandalism, otherwise they'll bounce them back as "content dispute, wrong venue". So it's best to get into the habit of only using the term in blatant cases. --Elonka 03:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks --Closedmouth (talk) 04:01, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Wikifan12345

Grateful if you could have a word with this editor. His latest contributions do not strike me as at all helpful. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Jagz

FYI, I have reinstated the indefinite block of Jagz (talk · contribs). Please see his edit to User talk:MastCell for the reason. --B (talk) 00:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I concur with the indefinite block, thanks for letting me know. --Elonka 01:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

nasty edit

Maybe you would look into this edit made on my TALK page? Thanks, Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, sorry about that. Appears to just be random vandalism, nothing to do with you. I have blocked the user for a month. --Elonka 03:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. What a jerk! Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay.

i appreciate the "polite" warning.

though i think u might be a little confused. i went to the talk page first, explained my proposal to change a SINGLE WORD in the intro, several members endorsed it, so i went on ahead and did it. i came back today and somebody reverted it with little reason why, so i went ahead and reverted it back. in response to your included links, i know it's hard to be fair and truly neutral in a hot environment like that, but let's be real honest. it's very easy to pick and choose another users comments without considering the whole situation and throw the book at them. if you take a full look at my history in the pal/israel discussions, ive been more than cordial. more cordial than most that ive been in contact with. if you take a gander at several of the users in the al-Durrah discussions, you'll many users have violated Editing Conditions laws and many other rules that have been established to protect abusive persons, yet i have not seen them receiving warnings as i have. im not quite certain why youre motivated to pin me out here, as i havent really been involved a lot with al-durrah. i suggest before giving somebody an unnecessary and unwarranted warning, please review all available information. id also add that i am under no restrictions in any of the wiki sectios as far as i know. thank you Wikifan12345 (talk) 03:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide a link to where you explained your proposal, and several members endorsed it? Thanks, Elonka 04:00, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah#rephrasing_intro please make an effort to respond in my discussion. thanks Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

also, so we're clear: I did NOT start a revert war. that seemed to be the core of your warning so it needs to be emphasized and accepted. again, thank you. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:12, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Based on my view of that discussion, opinions were pretty evenly split, so I wouldn't exactly call that a "consensus" discussion. I think it's also an overstatement to say that "several" members endorsed it, since I only saw two. However, if you'd like to change the wording in the lead again, and cite the source that Tundrabuggy mentioned, including perhaps a quote in the reference to show that the source does use the word "allegedly", that would probably be okay. Remember, the restriction only applies to reverts. You are still welcome to make changes, as long as each one is a bit different than something you tried last time, and you stick carefully to reliable sources. I encourage you to try and find a compromise. --Elonka 04:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you're missing the game Elonka. We're talking about a single word here. If anything, I was making a correction. The source used was over eight years old. please make a strong effort in considering the entire situation before issuing unnecessary citations. Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

When making a correction, it is best to include a source, which confirms the correction. See also WP:V. --Elonka 04:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I don't usually butt in on others' talk page sections, but this really needs to be dealt with IMO. A lot of us spent quite a bit of time a few weeks ago hammering out the al-Durrah lead, especially the "reported to have been killed" bit. While not perfect, it was at least something accepted all around. Now weeks later we have Wikifan here swapping it out with "allegedly", the veritable King of weasel words, because "the source is old?" Well, it may be, but since nothing in a reliable source has been found to contradict it in those 8 years, then that is what we can and should go with. This is the heart of the matter here; do new unreliable sources trump old reliable sources? IMO, our policies here clearly say "no". Tarc (talk) 14:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide a link to that discussion? Also, please remember that consensus can change. According to the link that Wikifan12345 provided, there is no solid talkpage consensus. But again, everyone is welcome to change the text to try and find a compromise version, that is in accordance with current reliable sources. --Elonka 15:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Jagz

I'm sorry. I'm very disappointed in his behavior. I'm honestly shocked that he's done this. Dusti 05:01, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Dont be sorry. You guys tried, and that is admirable. I was skeptic of the entire exercise (I first thought that it was a waste of time, then I thought that perhaps you were just giving him more rope to hang himself), but, in the end, you guys made me better at assuming good faith! I am pretty good at WP:AGF on the keyboard, but you got me to do it off the keyboard too! So, at least one good thing came of it. Thanks! Brusegadi (talk) 08:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Dustihowe: Yes, I'm disappointed too.  :/

Brusegadi: Thanks, and yes I knew there was some risk that it wouldn't work, but I felt it was a gamble worth taking. My gut tells me that he's not completely gone though... He probably has another account, or has moved his efforts to Wikia. I don't think we've seen the last of him. However, because he decided to "go out with a bang" on the Jagz account, his next accounts (if any) are not going to get much sympathy in terms of a second chance. If he would have stayed on good behavior with his Jagz account, then if another account was discovered, that was behaving in a constructive and collegial manner, we might have adopted a "wait and see" attitude. But as it is, anything new is just going to be blocked on sight. --Elonka 15:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, you guys had gotten me to believe he could really change his ways in the end. My hat off to you for trying.--Ramdrake (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not surprised, given some of the opposing editors kept stalking and edit warring with Jagz, combined with MastCell's threat to ban Jagz the next time he'd make an edit to a policy page. --Zero g (talk) 17:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think in a way, we are kind of responsible for his actions, because quite simply, individuals crack under pressure. Maybe he just got the final nudge? Dusti 18:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you and Elonka took on a difficult challenge in mentoring Jagz. Ultimately Jagz, and not other WP editors, must take responsibility for his own actions. MastCell's warning after Jagz's edits to policy pages was a completely normal response from an administrator, following Jagz's edits from a considerable distance. Nobody can excuse Jagz's obscene and disproportionate response. Mathsci (talk) 04:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

You know Mathsci I agree with you, but, I don't think that some editors helped the situation much by watching his every move and being overly critical of his every edit. Dusti 19:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in, possible POV fork here

Please take a look at this. It seems to me to be uncomfortably close to a POV fork of Dysgenics, although I'd like to hear what you think of it.--Ramdrake (talk) 17:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the content, but if you think it's inappropriate, go ahead and tag it for a merge, like I did with Dysgenesis. Add {{mergeto}} to that one, {{mergefrom}} to the other, and start a section for the discussion. --Elonka 17:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Pauline Fowler

hi elonka. I made an edit to remove 5 of this article's 7 fair use images. It's been reverted. Will you take a look and see if you still think these images are appropriate? 86.44.16.82 (talk) 18:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

That article has already been through extensive review processes, including WP:FA status. If there's a dispute, I recommend taking it to the talkpage. If there's consensus to remove the images, then proceed, otherwise, should probably leave them alone. See also Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. --Elonka 18:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

From your contribs, 86.44.16.82 (talk · contribs), it seems fairly obvious that you've got experience with Misplaced Pages. Care to identify your other account(s)? If nothing else, I would recommend creating a named account if you are going to get involved in disputes. --Elonka 18:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm somewhat taken aback by your responses. I have never had an account, just a series of IPs. I am not really in what I would call dispute, I'm just editing. As you are the main contributor to this article, I was asking for your specific opinion on the image use, rather than advice. My next step in lieu of good arguments or agreement would probably be FAR, rather than dispute resolution. 86.44.16.82 (talk) 19:08, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Get lost, GNU freedom troll! You are exactly the kind of people who make Misplaced Pages suck, by insisting on ruining our fine articles with your idiotic ideology. Go back to commons where you belong. --Dragon695 (talk) 19:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The anon's actions do appear to be in violation of WP:POINT. --Elonka 19:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry Elonka for my lack of civility. I'm afraid I'm a little frustrated about this nonsense and will be having a nice cup of tea now. --Dragon695 (talk) 19:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, and feel free to refactor any of your previous comments.  :) --Elonka 19:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You're a little late mentioning refactoring, since you've already given Dragon's comments your tacit support. I'm completely taken aback by all this. What point am I making, and how am I being disruptive? What's the problem? 86.44.16.82 (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Just saw the ANI thread. Perhaps you might see fit to pop over and apologize for your error in characterizing me as edit-warring. Your accusations of WP:POINT violation and threats are equally bogus failures of good faith, but unfortunately they are the kind of accusations one can not easily disprove. 86.44.16.82 (talk) 21:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. People are encouraged to get an account, but they are not forced to do so. All users should be treated with respect. Just because a person is using an IP address instead of a logged in account doesn't mean they are less than equals here. An apology is in order. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

To Anon, I am sorry for my outburst, I have redacted my comments. --Dragon695 (talk) 21:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't see the redaction yet, but thanks, Dragon. I prefer the nomenclature "IP editor", btw. :) 86.44.16.82 (talk) 21:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

And which other IPs might those be? --Elonka 21:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

There are no others in this thread, so there'd be no confusion. Are you asking for a list of IPs I've edited under?! 86.44.16.82 (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed I am. And/or named accounts. --Elonka 22:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

For what reason? And you have already been told that I have not now nor have I ever had a named account. Continue on with your rude inquisitorial bluntness, false assertions, failures of good faith and implications that I am a liar regardless, though. After all, I made an edit to an article then enquired as to your opinion on the issue at hand! 86.44.16.82 (talk) 22:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I've no problem telling anyone as best I can, btw. I expect to know why you wanna know, though.86.44.16.82 (talk) 22:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

For the reason, 86.44.16.82 (talk · contribs), that I believe you to be in violation of both WP:POINT and WP:SOCK, specifically, "it is a violation of this policy to create alternative accounts — or to edit anonymously without logging in to your account — in order to confuse or deceive editors who may have a legitimate interest in reviewing your contributions." So I guess we could go to SSP or CheckUser, but I was hoping to save time. --Elonka 22:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Your beliefs are less than fascinating, though it is charming that you feel no need to back them up with reason. 86.44.16.82 (talk) 23:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, the IP editor has already informed you that he has never had an account, yet you continue to assume bad faith and refuse to believe his assertions. Further, he's asked you to point out what abuses he's supposedly committed, and you've failed to provide any. You can have whatever beliefs you want to have. But, continuing to make the accusations without assuming good faith and without backing up your accusations with evidence is behavior not in line with best practices here. I encourage you to reconsider your position. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The anon has been blocked (not by me) for one week, for trolling. I support the block, and have placed my reasoning on the anon's talkpage. --Elonka 03:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

• And you still haven't provided any evidence of the supposed poor behavior. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I only came across this on your talk page because we've come into contact over Muhammad al Durrah. I would just make the point that someone editing under different IP addresses is not of itself evidence of sockpuppetry - people might edit from different PCs at different times, and even when they edit from the same PC, as I understand it some ISPs assign rotating numerical addresses to the same internet account. And I haven't looked at the detail of the dispute, but from what I can tell the editor made - yes, a bold - removal of some images. When they were reverted, they did not edit war, but entered discussion on the article talk page and also came to your talk page to ask for your view. Then they were subject to some pretty childish abuse (which elicited a smile from you) and also to accusations of sockpuppetry, trolling and WP:POINT, as well as to general criticism based on the fact that they were an IP editor. Things seem to have now got out of hand from there. --Nickhh (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Nickhh, outside opinions are helpful. And you are correct that just editing anonymously is not necessarily a problem. However, some editors do hide behind anonymity to be disruptive and avoid blocks, and that's when it does become a problem. As for your investigations, you're close, but I'd make a few small changes in the timeline: The editor was participating at one of multiple AN/ANI threads that had been started about Fair Use images, and then in the middle of that, made a no-notice deletion of several images from the FA-class Pauline Fowler article. They were reverted, told me about it, and then after prodding from me, took it to the talkpage. There was then a strong comment from another editor that the anon was, in effect, making WP:POINT edits about the "fair use" controversy, to which I agreed in principle (if not language). Things escalated from there, and the anon was then blocked (not by me). I did support the block, as did another admin who reviewed the unblock request. For more information, check the anon's talkpage. :) --Elonka 19:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

• Elonka, you state that the IP editor was participating in multiple AN and AN/I threads on the issue and then in the middle of that removed fair use images from Pauline Fowler. A review of the IP editor's contributions shows this accusation to be false, as the IP editor had made only two Misplaced Pages space edits prior to the Pauline Fowler edit, and neither of those edits to the Misplaced Pages space had anything to do with fair use images. You are in error. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I was referring to these edits to the AN thread "Non-free images in "List Of" articles", which thread was later closed since it was overlapped with this ANI thread "non-free article discussion and 3RR". --Elonka 19:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

• You asserted the IP Editor engaged in editing Pauline Fowler after initiating discussions on fair use images. You are wrong. You have also continued to refuse to provide diffs showing incivility on the part of this editor. Would you please take the opportunity to provide those diffs now please? Thanks in advance, --Hammersoft (talk) 20:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

excuse me?

I'm sorry, but I see no wikipedia rule/article that explains what constitutes borderline civil attack. My message was not targeted at any specific person, I didn't use foul language, or innuendos, or anything "borderlined" mean. No less than many of the posts authored by NickH or administrator ChrisO. Unless of course you consider capitalization a civil attack. Look, I respect your position as an administrator, but you if continue using frivolous citations I will be forced to seek another administrators opinion and file a complaint against you. thank you Wikifan12345 (talk) 20:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, I have wide latitude in imposing restrictions, towards the goal of stabilizing the article. You were already informed of this on June 8, though if you would like a second official warning, I can definitely provide one. If you are indeed banned from the article, you are welcome to file an appeal. However, you might wish to read this first: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Request for appeal: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles. In any case, just make sure that you abide by the conditions for editing, and keep your communications and edit summaries extremely civil, and no ban will be placed. --Elonka 20:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Response on my talk page

Hi Elonka. Thanks for the message. I've been away for a bit, but I'm back now and have replied over there. Carcharoth (talk) 08:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Editing restrictions

I need to replace one of the images on Muhammad al-Durrah (the postage stamp) with a higher-quality one. Any objections? -- ChrisO (talk) 08:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Your restriction applies only to editing the article itself. Other peripheral things such as updating an image file, participating at mediation, etc., are fine. --Elonka 14:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

When is this debate over?

I think Markussep and me provided enough evidence that a signficant Hungarian minority lives along at least parts of the river (actually in Komárno, where the Vág river meets the Danube, there is a Hungarian majority).
So Svetovid thinks it's time to remove the names (including the Hungarian one). Squash Racket (talk) 13:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

User_talk:86.44.16.82

I had a brief exchange with this IP and didn't think much of it except that I didn't think much of his/her attitude. I've always disliked that IP editors, however good their edits are, don't really have a completely visible track record and this can avoid accountability and use that to game the system. In this case, the guy has a point that he does not need to have an account, and I await his forthcoming unblock request with interest. Since he's in Ireland, I would expect that to appear before midnight my time since we're in the same timezone. FWIW, I think he does have an arguable point about the non-free images in Pauline Fowler. Checkuser? Well I wonder what grounds there could be for that, because I think you need a pretty good reason, and merely being a "spiky" editor won't cut it. I'm in two minds about this, but I'm sure others will try to make it up for me. I'll keep an eye on it. --Rodhullandemu 17:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

RedSpruce Redux

As I said in our last conversation, arguing about quotes in footnotes at one article serves no purpose. When consensus is reached at one article, RS moves to another article. We are now here. What is your opinion? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked his account for three hours. --Elonka 18:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

my user page

yes. why do you ask? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, it's my concern about "setting a good example" since you're an admin. To keep that kind of thing on your userpage, tends to make it look like it was a personal vendetta, and that you might be gloating. Better would be to just take it in stride, make a "no big deal" show of it. So he's gone, so are a lot of people. It doesn't mean you need to paint a "kill marking" on the side of the cockpit. --Elonka 18:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are two reasons why I think it is wise. The first is indeed personal - Jagz and several others made various accusations against me in the course of this conflict and I want an easily accessible record to turn to if anyone ever raises the issue again. The second is not personal and to me far, far more important: trolling is a serious persistent problem at Misplaced Pages and we have no real good mechanism for dealing with it except community bans - Arb Com only enforces violations of personal behavior policies, and most of our mechanisms and policies are meant to deal with conflicts between or among users. We have never had a good formal process for policing the quality of articles and people who have a persistent pattern of sabotaging articles - this is a matter of a conflict between someone with access to the internet versus Misplaced Pages itself, not between two users. I think it is especially important for administrators to learn how to recognize such trolls and for that reason I think there is a real value in accumulating a record of these kinds of incidents. Misplaced Pages is growing too fast for there to be a good sense of institutional or collective memory about these things (I wonder what percentage of people remember the entire Lir saga?) and too big for any one admin to know all the bad and ugly, as well as the good, that is going on here. AN/I gets archived at a dizzying rate. So yes, I think it is the epitome of wisdom to maintain an easily accessible record of such problem cases. I think they are very instructive. PS - I think you are generously over-estimating the number of people who look at my userpage!Slrubenstein | Talk 18:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)