Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:00, 1 September 2005

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• Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves/Archive 1
• Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves/Archive 2
• Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves/Archive 3
• Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves/Archive 4

For the page history of any text before this time stamp please see the Archives Philip Baird Shearer 16:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Footnote regarding the correct implementation of approval voting

I do not think it is necessary.

• Because if there are only two options by far the most common then the 60% rule is enough.
• I think the wording above is very confusing. This idea that a bank proposal should be added does not make sense to me.
• Details of how approval voting is done is coverd by the link to that page. It does not have to be duplicated possibly incorrectly on this page Philip Baird Shearer 11:48, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Of course the footnote is necessary, while preventing people to try and steer votes like you did on Talk:William of Orange. No offense intended, I can perfectly see this happened in good faith. Why I'm nonetheless defending correct application of the procedure as it was fixed after long, and not always easy, debate above, is that a wishy-washy application of the procedure will probably (as usual) not be able to come nearer to a solution accepted by many parties over a longer period of time. And is that not what we want most? Or is this really about trying to prove right whatever the cost? I'd really think sorry you'd lose your taste for wikipedia over that in the end, while, indeed, I'd think that the consequence of not trying to solve issues by a consensus type of approach. --Francis Schonken 12:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Polling for requested page move

See Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves/Archive 3#What form should the discussion on the talk page take for the previous discussion on this issue.

Kim Bruning edited WP:RM removing the votes line in the "Create a place for discussion" on the talk page so leaving only one section.I presume under the noble wikipedia idea meta:Don't vote on everything. With only a discussion section recommended one of the first controversial pages formatted this way became confusing. See the history of Talk:William I, Prince of Orange Philip Baird Shearer

Ohkay, if you have to, but people had added a poll that wasn't according to polling guidelines. Actually are you sure you want to normally have a poll there by default? That's kinda broken. Kim Bruning 16:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, Support-Oppose is a good guideline, rather than looser guidelines. But the wording could be changed, e.g "vote -> opinion". I'll make such example (and if you are dissatisfied, you of course reverse). 217.140.193.123 16:40, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

==Requested move==

The reasons for move copied from the entry on the ] page
===Polling===
:''Add *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' followed by an explanation of your opinion, then sign your opinion with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>''

===Discussion===
:''Add any additional comments''

Almost agree, I changed it above for you. The explanation must not be optional, and preferably should actually be longer than one sentence. :-) Kim Bruning 16:53, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

When we moved from having the votes on the WP:RM page to the talk page as you will see from the archive, I originally proposed a more proscriptive solution but the opinion at the time was that was too much meta:instruction creep. The format we have been using for about 9 months seems to have worked well in the vast majority of cases. Particluarly since the agreement to count the proposer as a vote in favour of the change and a 60% threshold (see Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves/Archive 3#consensus), so no votes 100% consensus in favour of the move, one oppose 50/50 no consensus, One support and one oppose 2/3 so consensus to move.

The recent change which 217.140.193.123 are IMHO better but I am going to remove the header "===Polling===". The other header "===Cast votes===" had snuck in without me noticing when I cut and pasted back what I thought was the original. Having a header between the proposer and an "opinion/poll" section could re-open the argument that "No one has voted in the poll section for the change, so no change should take place". This would be a pity because many page moves do not attract many votes and keeping it simple has worked well for those moves over the last few months. The idea behind what was as a compromise, to keep instruction creep to a minimum, while making sure that an administrator can easily work out what the result is without opening up a can of worms. (see Talk:Nagasaki which sparked the #consensus section mentioned above). Philip Baird Shearer 17:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I had an edit clash so I will also answer the last comment by kim Bruning. Yes the comment should be optional and yes it should only be one sentence long. Take a look at a vote like Talk:Zürich#Move (Zürich -> Zurich) and compare that with Talk:Eastern Front (World War II)#WP:RM discussion to see why. Philip Baird Shearer 17:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

The subtitle "polling" (or, earlier, "cast votes") should be kept, since it helps the actual editing process. With it, a voter (an "opinionator") needs not take the whole length into the edit window, when writing the vote. The size of edit window is important to many, with lesser net capacity. You have seen that the discussion portion could be somewhat full and long in certain cases. 217.140.193.123 18:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

We should make a convention to admins that the proposer is counted as supporter (if not explicitly stated otherwise - there are submissions where the original proposer has forgotten to list it, but an opponent or a bystander desires to have a conclusion to a "tagging"). When closing admins know it, it should not be a problem - besides, in difficult cases, proposers themselves also seem often to register a separate vote, just to be sure. 217.140.193.123 18:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I am in favor of trying to limit the main explanation - there are always people who write an "Agatha Christie" novel to give their reasons and much more else. It would be good to have main explanation of a couple of sentences, and all the else in commentaries-section. Perhaps it would be good to require at least one sentence, on the other hand. 217.140.193.123 18:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

No the sentence should remain be optional (we don't want an arguments over "That vote does not count because you did not comment"). Fair point about the block edit. However I would suggest that it could be retrofitted (like proposals are) if the discussion starts to get large. But if we have a second header as you suggest, then we ought to have a section on WP:RM explaining that in a simple vote (only 2 options) the proposal counts as a vote. Perhaps we should have that section in the article anyway and formalise the talk page. Philip Baird Shearer 18:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the polling section myself; I think polling should only happen when discussion is just going around in circles so much you can't gauge consensus by it, and that "support" and "oippose" is useless without explanation. I don't want to read novels for each opinion, myself, but better a novel than nothing at all. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 02:00, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

60%

See Archive 4#consensus for how the number came to be included in the WP:RM page. Philip Baird Shearer

The "rough consensus (60%)" comment is laughably incorrect. I only hope that no-one is applying it. It's such an amazingly vile violation of policy that I'm surprised that I'd not noticed it before, but then I suppose I can't go around expecting people to actually understand policy and word things correctly. :-(

James F. (talk) 14:40, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't have time to really start the discussion now, though I do hope to come back this. However, in the mean time, would you care to list which "policies" it is a violation of? The community has long resisted defining consensus. The closest we have is the "guideline" at Misplaced Pages:Consensus, which says (among other things) that 66% is the typical minimum threshold for consensus in VFD. Dragons flight 14:59, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Which policy? Misplaced Pages:No original research states "Misplaced Pages:No original research is one of three content policies. The other two are "Misplaced Pages:Neutral point" of view and "Misplaced Pages:Verifiability".

See the archive above but the reason for the 60% was to help administrators with a simple rule for all moves so that people could not quibble over what a "rough consensus" is. It was set at 60% because that number works well when there are only a few people (<6), expressing an opinion. Some in the previous discussion (including my self) would have liked a higher %age for larger votes but it was agreed to stick with one %age to keep the instruction creep to a minimum. I still agree with the argument presented by user:Jonathunder during the last discussion:

"Moving a page is not nearly as "big a deal" as setting policy, deleting a page, or promoting an admin - things that do require "rough consensus". Even though the title is the most visible part of the page, changing it isn't much different from changing content - something anyone can do. In fact, most of the time, any logged in user who's not completely new can just move a page. So I don't think we need to require a high threshold for moving pages listed here."

and I agued that "on pages like Zürich to Zurich the WP:RM serves another purpose and I think simple majority voting would not serve the wikipedia community as well consensus voting does by putting those types of debates to bed for a few months."--Philip Baird Shearer 18:14, 31 August 2005 (UTC)