Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:19, 8 July 2008

Proposed move

This should be at something like Responsibility for the Holocaust because the current title, The Holocaust (responsibility) implies that this is a different thing from the The Holocaust. Any objections or other suggestions? howcheng {chat} 20:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Since there were no objections, this move is now done. howcheng {chat} 20:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Poland

Sooner or later some crusader will come here asking why there is no Poland in the list. I advise creating some fair section in advance. Szopen 11:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure there will be one sooner or later... but I say - just wait for him. These nonsense accusations have been tried before but they are easy to rebut.--Jacurek (talk) 07:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't say the Poles were responsible for the holocaust, but certainly some Poles seem to have had a dislike for their Jewish compatriots, to the point of after the war continuing the process of expelling the holocaust survivors from the territory under Polish control, killing a few in the process.

• The Killing After the Killing After the ::Holocaust ended in 1945, Poland's surviving Jews still faced hatred from their fellow citizens.
• 'Fear': preliminary investigation launched into book by Jan Gross
• Chasing Away the Memory of Guilt: The End of Jewish Life in Poland
• THE JEDWABNE AFFAIR
• Poland's willing executioners
• The participation of poles in crimes against Jews

By the way, I think the sentence above was a bit sexist Jacurek, it should be him/her or "the user" etc.

hope the info above helps. --Stor stark7 00:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

All your links are nothing new, all Jan T. Gross... here is just a few for you.... I hope the info will help :)--Jacurek (talk) 01:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

]

Switzerland

There may be some people who are surprised to find Switzerland listed here. However, it was extremely imporant that the Swiss parliament set up the International Commission of Experts which came to the conclusion that official Swiss action sent Jews to the extermination camps. This does beg the question about other countries who refused Jewish asylum seekers permission to land, i.e. the SS St. Louis, resulting in the deaths of many of them. But the Swiss border guards did physically hand Jewish refugees to the Germans, well aware that they would be shipped to an extermination camp. Joel Mc 15:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Rosenstrasse protest

I have tried to modify some of the claims made about this courageous protest. There is clearly more work to be done on the Rosenstrasse protest article itself which remains one-sided in its claims. Joel Mc 15:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Footnote 18 really confuses the issue. The men were returned from a death camp where supposedly "everyone" knew "what was going on". A real soft spot in the holocaust story. Thanks for the information on an episode I had never heard about.

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BetacommandBot 15:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

A bit on collective guilt should be added

Efforts to instill a sense of "collective guilt"

"In 1945 there was an Allied consensus—which no longer exists—on the doctrine of collective guilt, that all Germans shared the blame not only for the war but for Nazi atrocities as well."

The British and The Americans considered the Germans to be guilty, using the terms "collective guilt", and "collective responsibility"

The British instructed their officers in control of German media to instill a sense of collective guilt in the population

In the early months of the occupation the Psychological Warfare Division of SHAEF (Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force) undertook a psychological propaganda campaign for the purpose of developing a German sense of collective responsibility. Using the German press (which were all under Allied control) and posters and pamphlets a program acquainting ordinary Germans with what had take place in the concentration camps was conducted.

"During the summer of 1945 pictures of Bergen-Belsen were hung as posters all over Germany with 'You Are Guilty' on them."

Later the U.S. army came to draw a distinction between those legally guilty and the rest of the population which was then merely considered morally guilty.

A number of films showing the concentration camps were made and screened to the German public. For example "Die Todesmuhlen", released in the U.S. zone in January 1946, "Welt im Film" No. 5 (June, 1945). A film that was never finished due partly to delays and the existence of the other films was "Memory of the Camps". "...the object was to shake and humiliate the Germans and prove to them beyond any possible challenge that these German crimes against humanity were committed and that the German people -- and not just the Nazis and SS -- bore responsibility."

Immediately upon the liberation of the concentration-camps many German civilians were forced to see the conditions in the camps, bury rotting corpses and exhume mass-graves. On threat of death or withdrawal of food civilians were forced to provide their belongings to former concentration camp inmates

--Stor stark7 23:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

On the statistics from the post war polls

We need someone to actually read the book the statistics come from, who can say what the U.S. interpretation of the numbers was.

Personally I think that perhaps with 3 million Germans dead from the post-war ethnic cleansing the Allies and Poles had staged/were staging, and the millions of Germans in allied slave labor camps, many former nazi concentration camps in Poland used to slowly kill German civilians the Allied dismantling of German industry that lasted until 1950, the mass-rapes by Russian and Polish soldiers, the "democratisation", and the "collective guilt" propaganda campaign perhaps the Germans were not in a mood to give the "liberators" the answers they wanted? --Stor stark7 01:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the recent revert

Joel Mc (talk · contribs), regarding this revert of yours, please state what it is you feel that needs to be discussed.--Stor stark7 15:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I had planned to explain my revert here, but was pulled away. The removal of the image and reference to the poll(s) needs explanation and discussion. I think that I understand your opinion about the polls, and the references were a bit messy. I have changed this, making the direct reference to Tony Judt. Given his status as a historian, his use of this info certainly gives added weight to it. Your references to German victims of the Nazi regime are certainly important but don't seem very relevant to this article: The important work of Peter Hoffman is not contradictory to the results of the polls. Your idea of linking to the Denazification article is a good one although I needed to correct my reference to polls. Goldhagen's study has been discredited by a wider range of historians than indicated, i.e. Yehuda Bauer: Rethinking the Holocaust. Haven, Yale University, 2001.--Joel Mc (talk) 20:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I have some issues with this. First, you've put the reference to Denazification in the footnotes, which means that essentially no-one will be able to see it and investigate furhter - and therefore will accept the opinion poll that is provided without any context as gospel. This is very bad, since the referenced data certainly needs context, for example showing that the cited question was very badly phrased.

Second: My reference to the German victims are very relevant here, since they were victimized because they were opponents to the regime. As it is the article currently wikilinks to the Greek resistance, the French resistance and to the Norwegian resistance, but incredibly no link is provided to the German resistance!

• You removed the image of the "anti-Nazi German women in the concentration camp ovens"

There is a sentence in the text that currently implicates the Germans by stating: "and that the basics of the concentration camps, if not the extermination camps, were widely known." That is sheer idiocy, of course the workings of the camps were known since many ordinary Germans had been forced to spend time there. This is the text you removed.

Almost every community in Germany had members taken away to concentration camps, as early as 1935 there were jingles warning:

"Dear God, make me dumb, that I may not to Dachau come."

"Between 1933 and 1945 more than 3 million Germans had been in concentration camps or prison for political reasons"

Tens of thousands of Germans were killed for their resistance; 12,000 were killed by Special Courts, while 40,000 were killed by "regular courts". In addition 25,000 German soldiers were killed after court martial. (see German resistance)

Please state specifically why you do not wish to see that text in the article.--Stor stark7 14:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

• I put the internal link to Denazification in the footnote as this is standard practice for making such a reference. I have no problem if you want to put it in the body.
• You have an interesting point of view about the historical context in which the polls were carried out and the nature of the question referred to. I have seen no reference to a scholarly discussion of this viewpoint. That doesn't mean it does not exist, but until there is a reference, it remains a personal point of view. The standard studies made of the polls can be found in: Merritt, Richard L.; Merritt, Anna J. (1970). Public opinion in occupied Germany: the OMGUS surveys, 1945-1949. Urbana: University of Illinois Press. ISBN 0-252-00077-3.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) and Merritt, Richard L.; Merritt, Anna J. (1970). Public opinion in occupied Germany: the OMGUS surveys, 1945-1949. Urbana: University of Illinois Press. ISBN 0-252-00077-3.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link).
• I removed the text and the picture because they were copied and pasted directly from the WP article German resistance, which seems to me where they belong. I agree with your point that there ought to be an internal link to German resistance.Joel Mc (talk) 14:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

• I will re-insert Denazification into the body then, and expect you not to remove it again.
• "Interesting point of view regarding the polls". You just proved that you never bothered to read the Denazification article, which is where the polls are discussed. It is not a "personal point of view" This makes your revert of my original edit suspicious. You did not revert the user who included the polls withou context in the first place, and edit that he by the way seems to have plastered all over Misplaced Pages. I once again suggest that we either delete the data and direct the reader to the relevant article, either that, or copy the full discussion into this article.
• Regarding the deleted information, how come you did not choose to leave the link to German resistance in that case? --Stor stark7 17:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I have not only read the Denazification article but Sarah Gordon as well. She has never implied given the historical context of denazification that: "the Germans were not in a mood to give the "liberators" the answers they wanted?" (Your words and personal point of view above.)In fact she has written with respect to some of the process, "The interviewees may have been particularly reluctant to give 'unfavorable' answers to Americans." (p. 199) She does raise some important points about the wording of the OMGUS surveys, but of course there were other surveys, and the 1950 and 1952 stix come from elsewhere. I also note that you have copied again chunk of text from Denazification and pasted it into the Responsibility for the Holocaust article. I don't know if there is a WP policy on this, but I certainly have never seen it done in any other encyclopedia. I have tried to keep my interventions here civil and don't really think they warrant your aggressive reaction. I have other things to do and will move on.--Joel Mc (talk) 15:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

1. Henry Maitles NEVER AGAIN!: A review of David Goldhagen, Hitlers Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust", further referenced to G Almond, "The German Resistance Movement", Current History 10 (1946), pp409-527.
2. Peter Hoffmann "The History of the German Resistance, 1933-1945"p.xiii
3. Peter Hoffmann "The History of the German Resistance, 1933-1945"p.xiii