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Comments

Syri i Kaltër is not in Sarandë but between Sarandë and Gjirokastër. Andres 20:45, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

So what???? --Albanau 17:28, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Substantial Greek community false or true

Could the one who added this text elaborate on it? How could you claim something when you have no proof that it even exists. And why even put substanital - it just doesn't sound too NPOV.- KAÇAK

The only reason there is no "proof" is because your government destroyed it, or rather, never created it (by deliberately suppressing greek numbers in the census). -Ellinas

Saranda didn't have a Greek majority in Saranda in 1914. If you can prove otherwise, then you can add that.--PG-Rated 18:12, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Sarande not only has a greek majority, but is a greek town, period. I'd like to remind you that, as part of its obligations to join the EU, Albania has to conduct a census of ethnic minorities. The good old days of the communist government which could indefinitely suppress ethnic minority numbers are well over. The new census will prove what i'm saying, and it's only a matter of time. I don't need to "prove" anything: I'll just let the albanian government do my work for me. Don't you just love the EU? 64.121.193.126 08:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)ptsourkas

Sorry but the town dows not infact have a Greek majrity:

Here is a recent map of the ethnicities of Albania from T.J. Winnifrith book 'BadLands-Borderlands: A history of southern Albania/Northern Epirus

] Note that Saranda is outside the Greek minority centralized area.

On the map that you link to it seems to me that Saranda is clearly placed in the Greek-polulated area.

Look at the dark dot. You can see the Greek minority area starts right outside the city. And that map isnt a "Greek populated area" is centralized zone of the Greek minority. Meaning the land where the majority of the minority reside. Similarly the Vlachs are in the same position since they do not constitute the majority of Korca.

Tpilkati 21:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

So what's your point, do you want to say there are no Greeks in Saranda? Also, I think it should be noted that a significant percentage (if not the majority) of Vlachs in Albania consider themselves Greeks. Many have been immigrating to Greece declaring as ethnic Greeks (homogeneis) and many Greek-identifying Vlach communities in Albania are receiving economic support from Vlach communities in Greece (check the GHM report on the Vlachs of Greece). Thulium 18:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Whether it has a Greek majority or not is a fact of utter irrelevance. If they are there they are Albanian citizens living witin the interntionally recognised borders of Albania. In fact there certainly are 'ethnic' Greeks there rather a lot of them, though wheteher they fomr a majorty I dont know. Many have moved to Greece, and some nearby villages such as Dhrovanj are more or less abandoned (though others are not). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.149.217 (talk) 20:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Well,the city is in Albania,Albanian is the native languange,and is in the borders of Albania what else you want.--Taulant23 (talk) 18:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Some important points

This page has been repeatedly targeted by an anonymous user, (presumably) an Albanian nationalist, that systematically seeks to remove everything Greek-related from this article in an attempt to rewrite history. However, it is necessary to set the record straight.

1) The Chaonians were an ancient Greek, and NOT an Illyrian tribe. Numerous ancient and modern sources attest to this.
2) The name of the town comes from the Greek "Agioi Saranda", meaning Forty Saints. To me, this is conclusive proof of its Greekness. If the town is supposedly "Albanian", how come it has a Greek name?
3) The town retains a strong Greek character which is obvious to anyone who has visited it. This is in spite of the forced Albanization and population transfer by Hoxha's regime. It is also obvious considering the town's proximity to the Greek border. Saranda is one of the most important centers of the Greek community of Northern Epirus, together with Argyorokastro (Gjirokaster) and Korytsa (Korce).
4) "Saranda is my hometown" is an emotional, not a rational, scientific argument. Nor does being from there make you an expert on the ancient Chaonians.
Tsourkpk 20:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Tsourkpk

1. Please elaborate bring the sources that, /attest that/. Not only the title or address of the source but one or some the paragraphs that actually attest what you say. The reason being is that the references brought here are wrong or impartial.

2. The name Saranda is it's modern name and is because of the Orthodox church influence in the district which historically has been run by Greek Priests and Bishops.Which we can not shake off even in the 21 century. If you think that is conclusive to claim it as Greek you are in murky waters. Think.. how many places villages and regions do not have a Greek name.

3. What are you talking about /Greek character/??. Tell me about it what in Saranda is Greek character and who says that. Hoxha regime Albanianize Greeks How, When, Who ? Dropulli and Narta would have been vanished especially Dropulli as a small populated area by Greeks. Through out the dictatorship they were protected and their folk praised by the dictator himself.

But if you knew this you would not be here writing what you do not know.

4. Maybe it does not make him a an expert but this applies to you too. You are not an expert ether. At least he is talking about his own country.

Jon--jon (talk) 18:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Controversy over no facts

Ok, i am not anonymous any more. I am the one who undid your modification in the text. In Albania there is 2-3 per cent greek popullation (as of the albanian statistics, and the us factbook), without the vlachs minority, the roma minority, etc. I agree with you that Saranda, derives from a greek name, menaing forty saints. This does not meen that Saranda is greek. If so, Filadelfia should be greek, and Plaka in Athens would be albanian (they are not). I agree with you too, when you say that the fact that Saranda is my hometown is just emotional, but at least it means that i know it better than you. Let me explain why i undid your modification: 1) In latin, Onchesmus means "good wind" and todays Saranda is a port in a gulf, as it was during the 5th century. It is not a greek name, and i am waiting you to prove it. 2) In albania there are three parts with greek minority. The first is Dropulli (Adrianopuli in greek) which sorrounds GJirokastra, which has a greek minority too as a city of about 25 per cent. The second one si Vurg, which is in the southern part of Rrethi ( division like Nomos in Greece) of Saranda and the third one is Narta municipality and maybe Himarra in Vlora. This three parts make the 3 per cent of the greek minority in Albania. 3) Chaons are epirotian, as Molos, Thesprotian, etc. Nobody proves that they are greek (nor Tukididi, who defines them only as epirotians and as non greek speaking - barbarians). Surely this does not mean that they are illyrians, but as of Tukidid, Pyrro has lived in Illyria and spoke this languge as his motherlanguage. Whatever i modificated the text as "the epirotian tribe of Chaonia". 4) You say that the three personalities are not known. I can say that you do not know them becouse you are not albanian. Hasan Tahsini, or Hoxha Tahsin is the first rector of the University of Instambul (Constandinople) and a well known personality in Albania and Turkey. His from Saranda and was born in there. He was albanian in nationallity. Bilal Xaferri is one of the most known writers. But, if you want to, you can add any of the greeks who are from Saranda. Today there are 6 per cent of the popullation greeks, as of the 2001 cencus. I can help you. The current minister of Work, mr. Kosta Barka, a member of the greeks minority party PBDNJ is greek, as I. 5) You are accusing me as a nationalist. I can ensure you that i am not. I like greeks, i have a lot of friends from Greece, and from the greek minority in Albania, even mr. barka is a friend of mine. So, the one who is nationist, might be you, somebody, who without any fact is trying to convince me and others that (I should repeat it) my hometown is Greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 20:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Arditbido,

I am very happy that you are no longer anonymous, that way we can have a civilized discussion. In response to you points:
1) Agree about the name.
2) If you want to claim that, you will have to provide a source. To my knowledge the Albanian census does not provide information on about ethnic miorities.
3) The Chaonians, Molossians and Thesprotians were most definitely Greek-speaking tribes. This is evidenced by both Hecataeus of Miletus , as well as Plutarch. Furthermore, there is no such thing as an "Epirotian" ethnicity, it is strictly a geographical term.
4) Agreed about the personalities. If you want, you can include Mr. Kostas Barkas.
5) I am very glad to hear that you are not a nationalist. Neither am I. I know lots of wonderful hard-working Albanian people in Greece and I count several among them as my friends.

That being said I propose the following steps:
1) Regarding the percentage of ethnic Greeks and Albanians in Saranda, until either one of us can provide a reliable source, (see WP:RS) I propose removing the sentence entirely, in order to avoid any friction.
2) I will provide references attesting to the Greekness of the Chaonians, I insist that they be mentioned as a Greek-speaking tribe.

I am glad we can have a discussion and look forward to your response. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice to hear from you,

I absolutely agree with you, but i would like not to add the word Greek Tribe, until i prove that today Saranda is albanian. Leave me five days to find the proof and so we would go on. The reason why i ask it is becouse even so there could be a missunderstatment between antiquity and modern times about the ethnic composal of my hometown. Nice to hear from you. Best wishes —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 20:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I am glad we are having this conversation. Cooperation is much better than war. I agree to your request, but in the meantime can we agree to have the article worded in neutral fashion (both regarding the Chaonians and the modern-day ethnic composition)? As for your source regarding the composition of your hometown, remember that is should satisfy WP:RS as per wikipedia rules. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.246.244 (talk) 21:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalised

Thisa article was vandalised, by greek users. It is incredible how wiki accepted edition like these, without references. It had a homemade map (no original rexserches are alloud). Editions without referneces. And most of all misconseptions about the Saranda istrict and Saranda town. It is true that the district is a mixture of greeks and albanians, but the town is ethniclly homogenous. 93 per cent are Aolbanians, as of the only study conducted as far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.246.175 (talk) 12:23, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This numbered user removed referenced material 77.242.19.9diffMegistias (talk) 16:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

He actually added unhistorical unreferenced ones as well.Megistias (talk) 16:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

His additions are from illyriansorg a known albanian propaganda site.Megistias (talk) 16:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Dont remove referenced material again numbered user.Megistias (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The source says large minority population.Megistias (talk) 17:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You removed referenced material again put it back in.diffMegistias (talk) 17:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Large minority does not mean 50 per cent. Large minority means 5-20 per cent. Up to 20 per cent it is constiutent ethnicity of the town. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

You removed even more material.There are references restore the page.Megistias (talk) 17:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes I removed also about the "ethnic cleasning", wich is not found in the references. If you find it written put it back —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 17:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Stop copy pasting and adding this "material"diff.Remove it please.Megistias (talk) 13:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

YOu are not and it will be removed.Megistias (talk) 14:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Original Research

References 7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14 are all from the same source and considered original research. If you find other legitimate references that convey the same findings, then you may have a solid argument. For now, it is considered original research and should not be posted. --PG-Rated (talk) 20:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Its from a reliable source and not a primary one.Megistias (talk) 20:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Albanisation???

I cannot see any attemp of albanisation in the references you give in the article. It speaks about the orthodox church closer. First of all, we are talking about the Albanian Orthodox Church, which language is Albanian, because most of orthodox in Albania are not Greeks, but Albanins. Secondly, Albania was declared an atheist state, and not only orthodox churches were closed and burned, but mosques, and especially catholic chuyrches were closed and burnt too. Anyway, it is another discussion, it has not to do with ethnicities. Secondly it speaks about albanian history, but this does not mean an attemp to albanise greeks. They were tought in their language and that is principle. We should revert it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 14:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The references are clear and dont support what you say.Megistias (talk) 14:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

What is clear? Where is said that there is an "Albanisation". Learn history! Albania was declared "atheist", and so no churches and mosques were aloud. Also, it is the Albanian Orthodox Church, not the greek —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 15:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I will revert the "albanisation" part, until you provide evidences 77.242.19.9 (talk) 15:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Its full of references your changes will be removed.Megistias (talk) 15:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

there is no reference! Where is it said that there was "albanisation"? If you cannot find it, there is no reference! 77.242.19.9 (talk) 15:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Its full of references and remove the additions you already made since they area copy from that website.Also Onchesmus was in Epirus Ancient Greece and was never Illyrian.Megistias (talk) 15:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Find the albanisation part! About the greek Onchesmos find a reference and put it in. About the diting parts, (exept of the Illiryan) I think there is nothing to be afraid, it just speaks about the Saranda`s atractions, and nothing else 77.242.19.9 (talk) 15:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The references speak of altering of Ethnic charakter of the Greeks.Take some time to read them.Megistias (talk) 15:59, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

No reference

1. the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."

This part is talking for Vlora district, not Saranda, read it carefully.

1. ^ http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97,onset in 1967 of the campaign by Albania’s communist party,the Albanian Party of Labour (PLA), to eradicate organised religion, a prime target of which was the Orthodox Church.Many churches were damaged or destroyed during this period, and many Greek-language books were banned because of their religious themes or orientation. Yet, as with other communist states, particularly in the Balkans, where measures putatively geared towards the consolidation of political control intersected with the pursuit of national integration, it is often impossible to distinguish sharply between ideological and ethno-cultural bases of repression. This is all the more true in the case of Albania’s anti-religion campaign because it was merely one element in the broader “Ideological and Cultural Revolution” begun by Hoxha in 1966 but whose main features he outlined at the PLA’s Fourth Congress in 1961.

Read the section about the Albanian Religion. There was not an albanisation of greeks, but there was declared an atheist state. Every religion was banned and every religious book was banned. Gjergj Fishta, the most known poet of North Albania was banned, till the end of comunnism. This is not talking about albanisation.

1. ^ http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97," under communism, pupils were taught only Albanian history and culture, even in Greek-language classes at the primary level."

This is not talking about albanisation. It says that they were tought in greek language. Albanisation means depreving the right of language. So it is not the one.

,

1. ^ http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97,"Under King Zog, the Greek villages suffered considerable repression, including the forcible closure of Greek-language schools in 1933-1934 and the ordering of Greek Orthodox monasteries to accept mentally sick individuals as inmates. "

This is an attemp of albanaising, so you can use it.

1. ^ http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97,"the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."

This does not talk about Saranda. Read out "Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well". Saranda name is ... Saranda, secondly, in Saranda there was always a greek-language school. So it is not the albanised city.

1. ^ http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97,onset in 1967 of the campaign by Albania’s communist party,the Albanian Party of Labour (PLA), to eradicate organised religion, a prime target of which was the Orthodox Church.Many churches were damaged or destroyed during this period, and many Greek-language books were banned because of their religious themes or orientation. Yet, as with other communist states, particularly in the Balkans, where measures putatively geared towards the consolidation of political control intersected with the pursuit of national integration, it is often impossible to distinguish sharply between ideological and ethno-cultural bases of repression. This is all the more true in the case of Albania’s anti-religion campaign because it was merely one element in the broader “Ideological and Cultural Revolution” begun by Hoxha in 1966 but whose main features he outlined at the PLA’s Fourth Congress in 1961.

I said it before.

1. ^ http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97," under communism, pupils were taught only Albanian history and culture, even in Greek-language classes at the primary level."

I said it before.

1. ^ http://www.da.mod.uk/colleges/csrc/document-listings/balkan/G97,"Under King Zog, the Greek villages suffered considerable repression, including the forcible closure of Greek-language schools in 1933-1934 and the ordering of Greek Orthodox monasteries to accept mentally sick individuals as inmates. "

I said it before.

So find new references if you do not want the the "albanisation" theme be reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thats what albanisation is....Megistias (talk) 19:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Albanisation is your term first of all. So it is an original research. "Albanisation" would be depriving them from their language, traditions and customs, like Greeks did to arvanites, or making them live their homes, like Greeks did to chams. So until you find a reference that this has happened, and that this had happened in Saranda, this article would be recomposed. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 19:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see Albanisation. Depriving them of their language is exactly what the Albanian government did, so you just admitted to Albanisation. And now, you are trying to do the same to this page. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, find a part which says that in Saranda Greeks were not aloud to speak Greek and we`re ok. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 20:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The sentence you keep removing states "The Greek Minority of Southern Albania have been under a policy of heavy Albanization from the era of King Zogu up to this day." Since Saranda is in southern Albania, it is automatically included, even if it is not mentioned explicitly. Or are you going to say that somehow Saranda was exempted from the policy of Albanization, while it was in force in the rest of Albania? The point is that the ENTIRE Greek minority in Albania was subject to Albanization, Saranda included. --Tsourkpk (talk) 01:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Zog's rule.That's one dictatorship.Lasted a few years.Hoxha's regime.That's dictatorship #2,with an anti-religious(NOT anti-Greek) campaign,oppressing all practise of religion for all citizens.Ended in 1989.How exactly does the "heavy" albanisation continue up to this day?.Amenifus (talk) 07:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

See the refs again, only a small part geographically and population wise is actually recognised by Albania.Megistias (talk) 10:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Albanisation is a fact in all of Albania and Sarande is not exception.If you pretend no to understand the sources not my fault.There is no consensus on your claim numbered user.You removed referenced materialMegistias (talk) 13:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Listen up. First of all you can not say "albanisation", if it is not included in your references. Read wiki`s rules. Secondly, in your references, which by the way I am sure that are not scientific, it is said that Greeks were deprived during `33-`34, in Zogu`s regime and that they did not have a minority status in Vlora District. Hoxha`s regime was anti-religious and not anti-greek. During his regime, Greeks in Southern Albania were mayors and prefects, so it is false such a statement. There is nothing about Southern Albania, which could include Saranda. Even if there was about Southern Albania, it does not include Saranda, becouse since the first cencus (1935), Saranda`s population was mostly Albanian with a Greek and Vlach Minority. So if you find a reference which says that Greeks were deprived in Saranda (like it is said in this reference about Himara), then we are ok. If you do not find it, then do not put that reference again. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 13:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You are not cooperating.This tactic was followed in all of Albania and the Greek minority was marginalised and Albanised.Albanisation is what they did.The references are scientific as you can plainly see.Hoxha regime was what the references say.Suppressive and anti Greek as well.Its includes all of Albania and even today the minority is being marginalised via recognising only a small part of it as indicated by the sources.No consensus and the references support what i say.Megistias (talk) 13:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Find me a single sentence, which says "albanisation" and i will accept it. Find me a single sentence that says about the whole Albania and i will accept it. Find me a single sentence that says about Saranda and I will accept it. About the Hoxha regime, read the article about religion in Albania, and you`ll understand, that there was not anti-Greek movement, but anti-religious one. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 14:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You can keep denying all you want it wont change facts nor refsMegistias (talk) 14:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

blah blah blah. I am giving arguments, you`re keeping saying the same things. Give me the "albanisation" part, and I will accept it. You abviously cannot find that part. So I cannot accept what you`re saying. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 14:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Depriving them of their cultural historical and religious charakteristics is Albanisation.Also Albania considers only a small part of the region as inhabited by Greek minority.Thats albanisation.You cannot understand this? Your issue not of Wiki'sMegistias (talk) 15:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey guy, Albanisation is not a term that it is used in any scientific research, so it cannot be used in wiki. Secondly, Albanians were deprived to religion, this means that albanians were albanised??????!!!!!! You cannot get it that it is not albanisation but dictatorship, the same to albanians and greeks of albania. If they were stoped to use their language, or customs that would be "albanisation", in another word, a scientific one. Here there is not such a thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 15:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Your changes will be reverted.Megistias (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

This is not an argument. Get references 77.242.19.9 (talk) 16:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

References are clear & you also vandalised albanisation article.Your lack of understanding soruces is your problem.Megistias (talk) 16:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It is clear. You can not say more than references say. If you do that, it is an original research, a misquoting. That what you do —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

No its reliable sources.You dont even know what original research is...Megistias (talk) 17:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

It maybe a reliable source, but it does not say what you say. It does not speak about "albanisation". And i explained that before. I didn`t add again my reference about the pensions that were given to albanians in order to declare themselves greek, becouse I realised that it was not fully written that way. Your references are the same thing. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 17:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Your additions are disruptive and will be all removed.Megistias (talk) 19:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

If you prove that, go on remove them. I am an albanian and I am from Saranda, but I just care that the truth be written. If what I have written is not true, I am open, and you can remove that. But if you lye in this page, by misquoting references I will not let you. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 20:19, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Your personal opinion is irrelevant.You removed perfectly referenced material.Megistias (talk) 20:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

1. the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."

"and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country." Since minority status was granted only to those 99 villages, it is safe to assume that ethnic Greeks throughout the rest of the country were subject to the policy of Albanisation. Which would include Saranda. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I have to disagree.It is not safe at all to assume such a thing.Read the following :http://www.southeasteurope.org/documents/0009albminorities.pdf It was used as reference in similar articles.Mind the Sarande section.Don't you think that the presence of a Greek school and church kinda contradicts the whole "albanisation" issue?Amenifus (talk) 07:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The report states that the school is only 8 years old and that the church was built recently. I'm talking about the years of the Hoxha regime. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No, you're not.The article clearly states heavy albanisation in progress to this day, not just during dictatorships.Amenifus (talk) 07:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I'll remove the "present day" part. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

"Till recently" still implies it as a modern event.Post-communism activities were only tensions between political and other interests,not albanisation.Confine it to the dictatorships please.(PS one of the ref links isn't working).Amenifus (talk) 07:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

read this

"The situation of the Greek national minority under almost half a century communist regime has been a subject of different discussions and comments. Nevertheless, it must be stressed that the Greek minority people have shared the fate of the majority of the population and have suffered the same limitations imposed by the regime. But the Greek minority people have not been subjected to any specific discrimination. A positive impact in this direction had the peaceful atmosphere and the tradition of normal and friendly coexistence, which has prevailed for a long time between the majority of the population and the Greek minority. This has been considered as an important achievement of the Albanian society, which has resisted various circumstances."

This is the best reference, is a official one, and not written by tow journalists such as Petiffer and Vickers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.247.86 (talk) 14:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

I propose that till we find references about "albanisation", or "greekisation", or any reference that gives other percentages for the population, we should remove the part that "There are different percentages given". Do you agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.242.19.9 (talk) 20:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

No answer to my proposal, so I deleted the "percentage" part. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 15:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to correct

Greek tribe of Chaonians/ Was called by it's Greek name Onchesmos. This ancient city is named in Latin as well /Cicero Onchesmus/. Onicesm would be in Albanian.

Bring references to this statements otherwise will be revised.

Jon--jon (talk) 18:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The article on Chaonians is full of references. That should be enough. What it's name "would" be in Albanian is entirely irrelevant, as Albanian wasn't spoken in the area at the time.

There are references in that paragraph on the city.Megistias (talk) 20:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

In all of the writers of antiquity I can not find one of their writings were it says that Chaonians were Greek. A few say that they spoke Greek but it is not in any place a statement that they were Greek. Is like saying that the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh are all English, because they all speak English.

So I agree with Chaonians spoke Greek but that Chaoninans were Greek is unfounded. Among others Plutarch says In /Phyrrus/.

.....Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning, and humane laws into his cities,....

So the proximity of their land with the most advanced civilization influenced their language and their culture.

According to the Oxford University Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica Albanian Language is An Indo-Eurpean Language, who is thought to be even older than the Greek one. Also it is thought that the Illyrian/Albanian language use to be written with the Phoenicians alphabet which was and is used By the Greeks When Roman empire occupied Illyria Albanian was written in Latin letters as well.

In the book written By Edwin E. Jacques /The Albanians/ it is written that some of the ancient writing in Greek is better translated in Albanian.

So your dismissal of the Albanian language is unfounded.

Onchesmos the city, it was written in Greek by Greek writing writers and in Latin by those who wrote in Latin. You can call all the cities or anything in the world in Greek, but that does not make it Greek.

Agaian if there is not a reference/chapter/verse that says that Chaonians were Greek it will be revised. The same goes for the city of Onchesmos, Onchesmus, Onshesm.

Jon--jon (talk) 19:13, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

There are references in the article to that effect.Read it first and then comment.Megistias (talk) 19:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Again there is not even one verse that says that Chaonians were Greek. Greek speaking but not Greek. I'm trying to be impartial but is not easy with you. If no one brings the part of the writing that says they were Greek, based on the same writers I would revise that the Chaonians were Illyrians.

Jon--jon (talk) 17:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

They were Greek as the sources say.If you change it it will be vandalism and you will be reported.Megistias (talk) 18:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

• Epirotes were Ancient Greeks,dont create problems and issues were there are none.
• "these conclusions to the evidence of archaeology, the following picture emerges. The first Greek-speaking peoples settled in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus after c. 2500, and in these areas they developed different dialects". A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 56,1986
• Borza, Eugene N. (1992). In the Shadow of Olympus: the Emergence of Macedon (Revised Edition). Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the 'northwest' Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes." "a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians." "The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus)."Megistias (talk) 19:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Referenced

The edit was already referenced diff its you who removed material.

• You removed a huge number of referencesMegistias (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It is the same study Do you wnat me to get 12 pages from the tow studys I have? It is the same thing. Your study is in —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 11:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Dont remove refs again please.Megistias (talk) 11:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I did not remove any referenced material. It is the same study. You have reverted to references: the study from council of europe and the one from southeasteurope organisation balkanian (talk) 11:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You removed points made there and changed the whole section to your liking.Your humanrights.coe source ignores the fact that albania pretends that Greeks are only to a narrow strip to the south.Megistias (talk) 12:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You also twisted the albanisation to limit it to Saranda.It was everywhere.Revert your changes.Megistias (talk) 12:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is about Saranda, please add that to Northern Epirus article, I do not care. But, in this page you cannot add material that is irrelevant. on the other hand, Council of Europe knows better than you (and your journalists) where a minority exist. Don`t you think so? balkanian (talk) 12:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Da.mod.uk is a Reliable source that brings many data to light.Yours is not and does not nullify that historical facts of this.Megistias (talk) 12:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

hahaha, please read wiki`s page of Council of Europe: "The Council of Europe, founded in 1949, is the oldest organisation working for European integration with a particular emphasis on legal standards and protection of human rights, democratic development and the rule of law in Europe. It is an international organisation with legal personality recognised under public international law that serves 800 million Europeans in 47 member states." You don`t know what you are talking about. A defense academy is a defence academy, an interantion organisation like Council of Europe is a body, wellacepted by every state as a garantee of human rights. balkanian (talk) 12:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

These facts are attested in a number of historical sources and the contradiction from council of europe raises huge questions to its supposed seriousness.Provide also quotes from the link you did not even link to this effect you claim.Megistias (talk) 12:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

"The situation of the Greek national minority under almost half a century communist regime has been a subject of different discussions and comments. Nevertheless, it must be stressed that the Greek minority people have shared the fate of the majority of the population and have suffered the same limitations imposed by the regime. But the Greek minority people have not been subjected to any specific discrimination. A positive impact in this direction had the peaceful atmosphere and the tradition of normal and friendly coexistence, which has prevailed for a long time between the majority of the population and the Greek minority. This has been considered as an important achievement of the Albanian society, which has resisted various circumstances." a quote balkanian (talk) 12:35, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Your source is inappropriate is ignores basic facts "Under King Zogu, the Greek villages suffered considerable repression, including the forcible closure of Greek-language schools in 1933-1934 and the ordering of Greek Orthodox monasteries to accept emotionally disturbed individuals as inmates. ""- ""the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well.""Megistias (talk) 12:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not care what you say, I have a reference from Council of Europe and you have a reference from tow journalists. balkanian (talk) 12:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way your facts seems too journalistic balkanian (talk) 12:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Your facts are nonexistant and your source is null and void.

Badlands-Borderland: A History of Southern Albania/Northern Epirus,ISBN-10: 0715632019,2003,T.J. Winnifrith,Page 138:"... the Orthodox Albanian-speakers who had not been expelled. On the other hand under Hoxha there were draconian measures to keep Greek-speakers loyal to Albania. Albanian rather then Greek history was taught in schools. ..."Megistias (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Albania: From Anarchy to a Balkan IdentityISBN 1850652791,by Miranda Vickers & James Pettifer, 1999,page 190,"When ethnic Greeks were caught attempting to escape to Greece,penalties were severe for the actual offender execution was common and his whole family might be condemned in internal exile for many years usually in the mining camps of northern and central albania"Megistias (talk) 12:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Albania: From Anarchy to a Balkan IdentityISBN 1850652791,by Miranda Vickers & James Pettifer, 1999,page 198,"A purge of ethnic Greeks in the professions in Albania continued in 1994, with particular emphasis on the law and the military."Megistias (talk) 12:49, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

What you gave is a "REPORT SUBMITTED BY ALBANIA" anyways.albania report in coeMegistias (talk) 12:55, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You go on giving me the same references by Vickers and Pettifer. Nevermind, about the study, It is submitted by Albania, but it is still a Council of Europe report. balkanian (talk) 13:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC) You just want a nationalistic page. I want a neutral page. balkanian (talk) 13:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Its the Albanian goverment view thats unhistorical .The council merely shows it.I have sources you dont.Megistias (talk) 13:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

History is history the Albanian goverment report claims that history did not take place and tries to change the communist suppresive past even when its attested everywhere.Megistias (talk) 13:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Your removal of refs and pov use of a supposed source will be removed.You also added a tourist guide.diffMegistias (talk) 13:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

And i also added a ref that you removed "Badlands-Borderland: A History of Southern Albania/Northern Epirus,ISBN-10: 0715632019,2003,T.J. Winnifrith,Page 138:"... the Orthodox Albanian-speakers who had not been expelled. On the other hand under Hoxha there were draconian measures to keep Greek-speakers loyal to Albania. Albanian rather then Greek history was taught in schools. ..."..Megistias (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

That is vandalism diff that you did.You removed quoted sources the new ref and added inappropriate material not sourced and not falsesly sourced.Megistias (talk) 13:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

And your pov "to the study conducted by " its a Albanian goverment opinion that goes against world historiography.Megistias (talk) 13:30, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

For real? Are you afraid having sources? I did not remove the "albanisation" part of the article. You removed the other part. So I think that Saranda`s page should have both side, you think that Saranda`s page should have only one side. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 05:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

So let`s find a solution right here. Eventhough, no references you have about Saranda, eventhough no reference you have speaks about albanisation (all of them speak about discrimination), you still want an nationalist page. What on hell do you want (this version, or this one. Whatever I have edited in this page was not nationalistic, as the tow version above, that you have done. On the other hand, I have let you speak about albanisation, a nonexisting term, in any reference and about references that are not speaking about Saranda. this should stop right now. balkanian (talk) 08:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Despite seeing refs on the article page and the talk page you removed them again and again.The journalists? Tow? There are many mentions of it....what can i say.Its Albanisation and you seem to ignore me completely to just do your things.Megistias (talk) 08:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The removal of sources in the population section hasnt been reverted yet someone do it.diff sources removalMegistias (talk) 21:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

The "famous people" section is falsely reported. There is no evidence that those individuals are... "famous," or even noteworthy. Please correct this error. Thanks

 Done: (cur) (last) 21:35, 27 April 2008 Cbrown1023 (Talk | contribs | block) (9,775 bytes) (remove unsourced information (possibly vandalism?) that doesn't seem to be the subject of the dispute as requested on the talk page) (rollback | undo) Cbrown1023 talk 21:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Edit protected

{{editprotect}} Can someone template the coordinates in the introduction, "39.88°N, 20.00°E" to "{{coor dm|39|52|N|20|00|E|}}"? (This gives us 39°52′N 20°00′E / 39.867°N 20.000°E / 39.867; 20.000. Notice I'm changing the decimal to dm). Thanks. Spencer 16:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

 Done Cbrown1023 talk 21:33, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Spencer 01:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

More

{{editprotect}} Just noticed...In the gallery, in the first pic, spell Sarandë correctly and remove the exclamation point. In the second one, get a better caption. Spencer 01:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

 Done I just removed the unencyclopedic captions altogether. If you can suggest better alternatives, I'll be happy to add them instead. Happy‑melon 10:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't think of any, at least right now. Spencer 11:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Famous people

These three are famous inhabitants of Saranda. I am trying to find some references in internet, but till now all of them are in albanian. Can I add references in Albanian? 77.242.19.9 (talk) 13:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

A

No! If you can't find references in English... why you want to edit the English version? You may only edit the Albanian version. Thanks.

famous people referenced

{{editprotected}}

Bilal Xhaferi is well known in Saranda.

• Robert Elsie, Historical Dictionary of Albania, New Edition, 2004, ISBN 0-8108-4872-4, S. 452f
• "Poeti i nemun - Bilal Xhaferri", Priština, Sabri Hamiti
• “Uragani i meteorëve", (Bilal Xhaferri përballë Ismail Kadaresë), Skopje, Fatime Kulli, ISBN 99927-2227-7-0
• "The industrial object in the mountain", Tirana, Adriatik Kallulli
• Biographie et poèmes sur Spirit of Albania
• krahuanglisht
• krahufrengjisht
• Selected narratives

you can see also his page in wiki Bilal Xhaferri

So please add him.

Anita Bitri was another famous inhabitant of Saranda. , see also her page in wiki Anita Bitri —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 13:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Naim Frasheri, the national poet of Albania, has worked as Director of Customs in Saranda. I have references only in Albanian . So please, add him. balkanian (talk) 13:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hasan Tahsini is another famous inhabitant. So please add him. balkanian (talk) 14:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

My proposal for the section is as follows:
famous inhabitants

Naim Frasheri, the national poet of Albania, has worked as Director of Customs in Saranda.
Hasan Tahsini, philosopher, historian, first rector of University of Instambull,
Bilal Xhaferri, famous Albanian writerBiographie et poèmes sur Spirit of Albania krahuanglishtkrahufrengjishtSelected narratives
Anita Bitri, singerbalkanian (talk) 19:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

 Done Cbrown1023 talk 19:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hold on a sec. None of these "famous people" are referenced by a reliable source in English. The "references" are in fact only websites and blogs, which in no way meet WP:RS. Analytically:

1) For Frasheri, a website in Albanian
2) For Tahsini, the article in the Albanian wikipedia (circular reasoning)
3) For Xhaferi, blogs and random websites
4) For Bitri, a fan website
none of these sources even come close to meeting WP:RS. Until such a time that reliable sources in English are inserted that attest to their famousness, they've got to go. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay then... this could use more discussion, re-reverting and if you want them re-added, balkanian, discuss it here on the talk. Cbrown1023 talk 20:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Come on...Why would anybody lie that Naim Frasheri or Hasan Tahsini lived in Saranda. Yep, the references are in Albanian, but as far as I know, we are talking about some Albanian personalities. It is normal that Albanian sites would write more for them. Most of famous people sections have no references at all (see Larisa for example). Who would write that somebody lived in a town, just like that...in order to lie? balkanian (talk) 20:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Find proper sources and not such sites.Megistias (talk) 21:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not the point. The point is, everything should be properly sourced, and the sources you provide are not appropriate for wikipedia. It's not that I don't believe that these people are from Saranda, but it seems like no one's ever heard of them outside Albania, so it's their "famousness" that I question. As for Larisa, what can I say other than WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. That article's "Famous people" section definitely needs cleanup, but that doesn't mean that we should use inappropriate sources on this one. That is not a valid argument in favor of your sources. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

dhermi beach??

Dhermi is located far away from Saranda, so the photo in the gallery should be reverted. balkanian (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposals for article

Here are my proposals for reaching a consensus on this article and ending the edit-warring that has been plaguing it:

1) Is the figure of 30,200 sourced? If not, it should be removed and replaced with the figure from the most recent census.
2) The history section needs cleanup as it is full of repetition and redundancy.
3) The whole "The city" section needs to go as it un-encyclopedic in tone and inapropriate for wikipedia.
4) For the "population" section, let's just keep the first sentence and drop the rest. The population figures are from a dubious source (written in extremely bad english, for example, which raises questions about the professionalism), and the stuff on Albanisation just doesn't add up for now. Until such time as better sources are found, this material should be left out.
5) The "Famous people" should also be similarly sourced or else removed. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

"Saranda is located in southern Albania along the Ionian coast and Greek border. It has an area of 149 square km. Tourism is the main economic resource, while other major resources include fishing, construction and services. The unemployment rate according to the population census of 2001 is 19.58 percent35. Family tourism and seasonal work during the summer period mitigate the unemployment rate. The population of Saranda increased from 15,700 inhabitants in 1989 to 14,553 in 2001,36 with a population growth rate of 93 percent37. However, due to uncontrolled movements, especially after 1997, this figure is considered to be even higher, and according to the municipal sources approximately 32,000 inhabitants are currently living in the city, with a population growth rate which is calculated to be 203 percent (1989-2003). One hundred fifty-three families in the city are living under the economic assistance program of the municipality." I think this can be added, it is from a reliable sources, World Bank
So we have a reference, about the population figure, from a reliable source. Although it has tow different figures. I think we can add them both. X says x thousand, y says y thousand.
I agree about the history section.
I agree about the city section, we can use the above source for this section. I propose that it should be named The town, not The city.
I do not agree about the population section. The figures are from a reliabe source, (a study conducted from an international organisation), I agree about the rest
I also agree about famous people section. But I think that albanian language sources should not be deprived. I will find other sources, in albanian and maybe english, in order to add them. 77.242.19.9 (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

About Bilal Xhaferr this is a reliable source Toena, it is a wellknown publishing house in Albania. This one is another reliable source: Robert Elsie, Historical Dictionary of Albania, New Edition, 2004, ISBN 0-8108-4872-4, S. 452f
About Anita Bitri, was her personal website, and now it is managed from her realtives, so it is a reliable source. balkanian (talk) 13:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

• Your anitbitri site doesnt exist.Its anita site and it says she was born in Saranda.
• Your Toena toena just says the guy exists and made a book and doesnt mention Sarande.
• You didnt bring a mention from Robert Elsie you just mentioned his name.Megistias (talk) 14:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

They have to be famous and noteworthy not to just have existed.......Megistias (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

And alb wiki on a Bilal Xhaferri says he was born in Konispol.Megistias (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

He is born in Konispol, but he has lived in Saranda and then in USA. The other sources metions that he has lived in Saranda, and the source by toena, confirms that he is wellknown. There is not a biography of him in english in internet, so this tow should be enough. About it is not her fans site, it was her personal site, which is managed by her relatives. There is a bio in English, so I do not see any problem. About the rest, I am trying to find new sources. Now, what is your opinion about the proposals above? balkanian (talk) 14:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Find appropriate sources for noteworthy individuals.He was from Konispol(add him there) not Sarande i have made my points above.Anything properly referenced can be added.Megistias (talk) 19:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey buddy, do you read others, or just your posts? He has lived in Saranda for many years, and so he is a "famous inhabitant" of the town. Nevertheless, at least Anita Bitri is from Saranda, isn`t she? I am tired talking with you and arguing your nationalistic POV`s. balkanian (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Read how wiki works and what a reliable source is(You failed to bring any and you posted her site wrong,one work with no data for Xhaferi and you mentioned Eslie without quoting him).Since he is famous(he seeems to be really) there you will be able to find such information easily.And anyone looking in this talk page knows what pov is by looking at your posts,and i am not your buddy.You "misused" and vandalised by removing sources in the article many times so dont pov me.

• diff1
• diff2
• diff3
• diff4
• diff5

Megistias (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the problem is that being new to Misplaced Pages, Ardit, you need to achieve a better understanding of what a reliable source is. For example, the UNDP study you mention is fine, but personal websites, regardless of whose family maintains them are definitely not (in the Anita Bitri case). Misplaced Pages has very specific guidelines about what constitutes a reliable source (see WP:RS), and a source isn't just considered "reliable" because one user says so. In general, we have to be very careful with websites, as they can be very dubious (e.g. illyrians.org). Also, you should be aware that if you quote someone like Elsie (who is a very reliable source), you're going to have to provide the in-line citation as Megistias does. Those are just the rules of wikipedia. Being new to Misplaced Pages, you might not be aware of these things, and this is what might be causing some friction between yourself and other users. Also, please remain civil and don't use terms like "buddy", which will only makes things worse. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:27, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Now, regarding the article, I suppose we could include the info from the UNDP report in an economy sub-section, although not in the intro. As for the famous people, if you provide the in-line citation from Elsie, we can include Xhaferri, although you will have to do better for the others.

Ok then the only thing we do not agree, is about the ethnic division of the town. I do not agree about the population section. The figures are from a reliabe source, (a study conducted from an international organisation), I agree about the rest
So what is your opinion.balkanian (talk) 13:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope that is an Albanian goverment report with fantasies and not reliable.Megistias (talk) 13:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

It is about southeurope orgnaisation`s study. Not about Council of Europe one. Read my dialouge with Tsourkpk.balkanian (talk) 14:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that we finally reached a concensus as follows: 1) The population of Saranda is disputed. Municipal data show that the population is 32.000, but another source shows 15.000.
2) The history section needs cleanup as it is full of repetition and redundancy.
3) We will add a "economy" section, sourced with this
4) For the "population" section, we will keep the first tow sentence and drop the rest.
5) The "Famous people" should also be similarly sourced or else removed. I think that only Anita Bitri has till now enough references.
What do you think?balkanian (talk) 20:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

This can be removed its already in in the rest of the section."The ancient Greek city of Onchesmos, mentioned as a port in the 1st century B.C, it's what's known today as Sarandë or Saranda. In the 4th century A.d. the city was fortified with walls. Inside the walls have been excavated the remains of dwellings, water cisterns and an early Christian Basilica of the 5th and 6th century, containing a beautiful multicolored floor mosaic. Other mosaics are to be found in the district museum. The ruins are also preserved of an early Christian Monastery, of the Forty Saints, from which the modern name of the city (Saranda, which means forty in Greek) is derived."Megistias (talk) 20:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes of course. I will add referenced material for the most anciant sinagogue in Europe, which is in Saranda and other stuff.balkanian (talk) 20:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Response to proposal:

1) Include both pop. sources, since they do not agree.

2) The history section does need cleanup, but we need to be careful with what we "clean up"

3) OK about economy

4) Fine with pop section

5) I really don't think Anita Bitri is well-sourced. Where is the source? Personal and family websites, while interesting, are not reliable sources. --Tsourkpk (talk) 21:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarandë (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Ok then, it is fine with me. I am asking unprotection of the page, since we reached a consensus. balkanian (talk) 12:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Quotation for famous inhabitants

Hasan Tahsini, new reference, from the book "The Albanians: An ethnic history", Edwin Jacques. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 13:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The quotation from Robert Elsie, about Naim Frasheri: "He worked as a civil servant in Berat and from 1874 to 1877 as a customs director in Saranda", "Dictionary of Albanian Literature", ISBN:031325186X, page 45. balkanian (talk) 13:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Edwin E. Jacques is not a proper source.And what if Frasheri worked for 3 years in Saranda and some years in Berat??Megistias (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop using Arditbido|balkanian in your comments.Megistias (talk) 14:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion about Edwin Jacques is irrelevant. About Naim, he hes worked in Saranda, so he has lived there, so he is a famous inhabitant. balkanian (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

He is not a proper source.Not my opinion but a fact.See Pelasgians talk and or archives.He is just a priest with fringe theories of no worth.Megistias (talk) 14:11, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

We are not talking about theories here. We are talking if Hasan Tahsini lived in Saranda, or not. It seems that he has lived there, thelontas esy h oxi...balkanian (talk) 14:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

He could have but Jacques is not reliable.Eslie on Frasheri seems ok.Megistias (talk) 14:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Eslie should have all these fellas in his books so it will be easy to find and reference them from him.Megistias (talk) 14:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

No he doesn`t because he has written about writers of 19th century.balkanian (talk) 14:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Greek names

Greek language is not an official language in Albania. Therefore, there is no need to include the Greek versions or translation of the names of Albanian cities. The article should be edited accordingly. I have also raised this issue in the Talk:Albania page and I will be starting a Manual of Style a propos this issue.--_Arbër 07:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The fact that there is a living Greek minority in Saranda means its inclusion in the lead is more than justified. Please stop with your virtual ethnic cleansing. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

My virtual ethnic cleansing? Wow, you should apply for the CFSP Head of the EU. Yes, there is a Greek minority over there, but Greek language is not official in Albania. So, with all due respect to the so-called Greek minority over there, I don't see a logical argument in placing the Greek names in Albanian cities. Moreover, why don't we place the Albanian names in the Chameria region in Greece, given that there is a considerable number of Cham Albanians living over there? Yes, as you probably realize, this is where your logic becomes a fallacy.--_Arbër

See cities like Ioannina where the name is featured RIGHT IN THE INTRO. 3rdAlcove (talk) 10:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The fallacy is in your logic. While there is a vibrant Greek minority in Albania, there are no more Chams in Greece. Not one. And your insistence on removing Greek names because Greek is not official is also fallacious, because Misplaced Pages doesn't give a DAMN about official policy. Even then, Greek actually IS an official minority language in the areas inhabited by the Greek minority. --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

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