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Previous discussion on this page has been archived at Talk:Bill O'Reilly (commentator) (archive).

The National Academy of Arts and Sciences

"After the September 11, 2001 attacks, O'Reilly was honored by The National Academy of Arts and Sciences for his coverage and analysis of the events." What exactly is the National Academy of Arts and Sciences? Did the author mean the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences? I sure hope it wasn't the National Academy of Sciences. ;-)

Some of the information here seems wrong.

uh, like what? if you're going to put a disputed tag on a page, explain exactly why. putting a disputed tag and not actually explaining why gets noone anywhere. i'll remove it until you detail your objections. --Jamieli 16:14, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Proof O'Reilly is a bullshitter is PoV?

It's like Jon Stewart once said, are those reporting the news anti-Bush or is the news itself anti-Bush? In this case, the news is against Bill O'Reilly. I put on there that O'Reilly said a town in New York state was named after an "Indian" tribe when in fact no such Native American tribe exists. It isn't PoV to say he wasn't telling the truth, but it isn't apparent that he was really lying but just that he was trying to act like he knew something when he didn't. That's bullshitting, I go to college, I see it all the time. And it isn't PoV to point out objective facts, objective facts are in the NPoV tutorial under "What Not To Avoid." So if anyone wants to revert the facts away, they should here state why the facts are not worth presenting. Maprovonsha172 03:53, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

"Canandaigua" was the name of a Seneca village and was also the name of a treaty between the Iroquois tribe and the confederacy. So there is a fairly reasonable chance that this was an honest mistake. At the very least, no, it is not "apparent" what he was thinking when he made the statement. Your conjecture is not "proof" nor is it "objective facts" so to call him a "bullshitter" is baseless and POV. And without that bit, your remaining contribution is pretty worthless. There are many more well-publicized and widely scrutinized instances of O'Reilly's dishonesty as well as sources that compile them, both of which are already referenced in the article. Your edit doesn't add anything of value. To put it plainly we don't need a play-by-play of every show the guy puts out. The article references Media Matters; should we include a few sentences about each of the 200-plus items they've compiled on O'Reilly? Davetrainer 16:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I wonder if you watched yesterday's show. I did. He said "the Indian tribe" quite confidantly and abruptly right after correcting his pronounciation. It's not an honest mistake, its bullshitting. He needed to bullshit that "the Indian tribe" stuff after correcting himself so as to save face. Some people think he is a liar, some people think he is a saint, here is an instance of him bullshitting. I think that is very important, alongside more important instances like when he said he was "in combat" and all sorts of things like that. We can reword if you like but the information is valid.

P.S.: You would do well to register as a member David.

I agree with Davetrainer. Pointing out hand-selected quotes as an example of "bullshit" is POV, as well as original research. Rhobite 19:07, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

That he said something confidently and abruptly does not rule out the possibility that he made an honest mistake, and it certainly is not a sufficient basis for calling him a "bullshitter". Again, it isn't apparent to anyone what he was thinking when he made the statement, so for you to infer that he was "bullshitting" "to save face" is POV. And yes, it is also original research. I'm pretty certain that no amount of rewording can reconcile any of these problems. Davetrainer 21:49, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose it is original research, so I will retract it for that reason. But it is a perfect example of O'Reilly bullshitting, acting as though he were familiar with a Native American tribe that doesn't and never has existed. Anyone who caught that last night could back me up on that. Maprovonsha172 21:59, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

No hard feelings, frankly I do consider O'Reilly a liar and a bullshitter, and I don't doubt he was bullshitting in this case. So it's a POV that we share, nonetheless it is a POV. Davetrainer 22:48, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Requested move

The cricketeer is nowhere near as notable as the controversial talk show host, and a disambiguation page is good enough. Google for 'Bill O'Reilly FOX News' receives 625,000 results; 'Bill O'Reilly Cricket' receives 41,200 results. I would be bold and move myself, but I'm afraid that doing so might not be possible due to page histories, etc. I am requesting this page be moved to Bill O'Reilly, and have Bill O'Reilly as it currently stands be moved to Bill O'Reilly (disambiguation).

Vote here with Support or Oppose.

Support

• Support. ral315 18:28, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
  • Withdrawing request, as apparently the cricketeer is much more well-known than the commentator elsewhere. ral315 23:18, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
    • I still support this. If he were much more well-known, he'd have more than 10 articles linking to him. Misplaced Pages's Aussie editors are plentiful (and I lived there this entire last year), so there's no worry of geographical bias, in my mind. Shem 23:43, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Shem 21:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)***The appalling ignorance of some Americans on here really does make me believe all those Dubya jokes must be true. We have one who thinks merit is determined by Google results and another who thinks it is determined by the number of Misplaced Pages articles!? The first one also says that it is only olympic participation that determines if a sport is "major"; but of course baseball and American football are "major" despite not being in the olympics. Absolutely unbelievable.

And yet the guy who raised the issue in the first place has done a bit of sensible research, realised that cricket worldwide is somewhat bigger than he first thought, and has withdrawn his proposal. --Jack 18:24, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

• Support. I am going to take every opportunity I can to agree with Shem. The only Wiki issue is notability and it is not even close. I am not always a fan of Google searches, but in this case, it tells the story. --Noitall 03:06, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • I'm curious why, if you're not a fan of Google searches, that in this case you are. An American media personality is obviously going to have more Google hits than a dead Australian cricketer - but that doesn't neccessarily translate into notability. The cricketer was one of the greatest players that ever lived. The commentator will be all but forgotten a couple of years after he retires. -- Ian ≡ talk 06:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I am not a fan because sometimes Google searches can be misleading or discussions when close to same hits are erronious. In this case it is not even close. I don't think being one of the "greatest players" from an extremely minor sport of cricket (no offense, but its the truth) from years ago who is dead and from Australia (no offense again, but Australia just does not influence the world, especially from many years ago). --Noitall 01:27, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • It is not true that cricket is an "extremely minor sport". It is followed by more people across the world than any other sport except soccer. It is a very minor sport in the USA, certainly, but worldwide it is more significant than any American sport. No offence, just correcting your "truth". -dmmaus 02:08, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
      • No offence taken on any point :). However, I don't see what Australia's status as a world influence has to do with the notability issue. As I and others have argued, Cricket is a significant sport and "old" Bill is a highly notable individual in that sport and that this is a multi-language, international encyclopaedia. I put it to you that neither Bill is more notable than the other in that context and that that they should both be referred to from Bill O'Reilly (a disambig page). -- Ian ≡ talk 04:18, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
    • You seem to be ignorant of Bill O'Reilly's impact on politics, journalism, and media, I think. He is the most-watched political pundit of any on Earth currently. Shem 11:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Can you back up your claim: on earth? Ian, Jguk, and I have all not heard about this commentator. I don't believe any of us are behind the times, or don't keep abreast of current events. We come from three different countries. On earth? nice claim. User:Nichalp/sg 13:43, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
        • Certainly, he changed cable news, changed regular television news, received ratings far higher than all others (and from all POVs), the issues he raises influences politics and political opinion. In short, he has had an enormous impact.--Noitall 01:27, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
          • He has an impact in the United States. From the international point of view he may just be a regular tv anchor. From Misplaced Pages's article on the commentator, the only international events that the commentator can be credited to is the coverage of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and his (really stupid IMO) edict against French goods. Please do not claim "global" impact. His realm of influence is North America. The cricketer's influence is much more widespread. Keep the dab page as both are notable. User:Nichalp/sg 06:22, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
      • Yes, I'm completely ignorant of his impact on politics etc. I rather think that's the point, isn't it? Stephen Turner 06:59, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
• Support. User:Bedford 04:29, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Oppose

• Oppose. I've never (well hardly) heard of Bill O'Reilly the commentator. I sure that there'd be millions of people who know who the cricketer is though. A case of WP:CSB. -- Ian ≡ talk 01:59, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • And I'd argue that millions more know who O'Reilly is, in Australia and the UK, too. Yours looks a case of cricket fandom, not countering systemic bias. "For the Australian cricketer, see: Bill O'Reilly (cricketer)" would still be on display prominently at the top of the page. Shem(talk) 02:05, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Your argument is based on an assumption that "millions" in Australia and GB know who your TV "personality" is. I can tell you for a fact that he is unknown in England, though Tiger O'Reilly is well known even to people with a passing interest in cricket. In Australia, Tiger O'Reilly's native land, he is an absolute legend and an Aussie pal of mine has just confirmed over the phone that he has never heard of anyone else called Bill O'Reilly. Please do not assume that the rest of the world is taken in by American hype and propaganda. Frankly, we are just not interested in America. A good example came up in my conversation with my Aussie pal when we asked each other how many baseball names we know. We both agreed we had heard of Babe Ruth and then we were really struggling. My mate says he read something about one called Strawberry Fields (unless that was a Beatles song!) and he mentioned another called Jeter(?). The only other one I can think of is Billy Bonds' namesake. Given that my friend and I are both knowledgeable people who are widely travelled and are both huge sports fans, I would say that we are a good example of the complete indifference to Americana that is common throughout the world apart from in the USA itself. --Jack 12:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Neither is self-evidently more notable than the other. --Ngb 19:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Definitely not clear that one is more notable than the other - googlecounting is, as ever, pretty stupid. --Khendon 19:10, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per Khendon - O'Reilly played fifty years ago, naturally his google count is going to be deflated. Don Bradman picked him in his all-time World XI before he died, apparently. Sam Vimes 19:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Bill O'Reilly was one of the best and most famous cricketers of his era - as evidenced by him being in the Australian Hall of Fame and in Bradman's all-time World XI. I've never heard of the American commentator, jguk 19:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Both are notable to different audiences. A disambiguation page is the right solution. Stephen Turner 20:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
• Very strong oppose: – I live in India. I don't get the Fox News Channel, and so I haven't heard of the commentator. Are you going to tell me just because he is pretty famous in the US, and his name is occasionally heard of in Australia and the UK, he gets the benefit of the title? This is nothing but systemic bias! How can it be gauged that he is anywhere less notable by those who aren't familiar with cricket history? He was one of the most famous cricketers of the Bodyline era. User:Nichalp/sg 05:59, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • Systemic bias my ass; this is a vote-bombing by Wikiproject cricket, and fandom trying to play itself off as fighting systemic bias. Shem 08:48, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
  • That's an American ass, of course? American as in a country led by George W Bush? There is no vote-bombing here at all. It is simply that cricket is a major worldwide sport, second only to football (played with feet, round ball, you know the one), and that people in the rest of the world, not just cricket and football fans, object to exercises in American propaganda trying to convince us that we have heard of every American "personality" when we are simply not interested in America. A pal of mine in Bangalore told me only today that he has never heard of any Bill O'Reilly other than "Tiger" and that people in India "have better things to do than be interested in American TV personalities". --Jack 12:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I will take the opportunity to remind you of Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith. Baseless allegations of 'vote-bombing' are not in keeping with this. --Ngb 08:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
      • You should take the opportunity to read my user page, and be reminded that I don't follow that guideline on Misplaced Pages. My observation is definitely not baseless; a very sensible move was proposed, and a "hey, come vote here cricket fans" notice was posted at Wikiproject Cricket. Were such a notice posted off-site, it'd be vote-bombing without question. Y'all're a bunch of cricket fans, first and foremost, using the fact that you're not Americans as leverage in a bogus allegation of systemic bias. Shem 11:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
        • WP:Cricket is not vote-bombing - and there are plenty of instances of cricketers only being linked to via a disambiguation notice at the top of an article on someone completely different that I wouldn't think of changing, regardless of how many other cricket fans tried to persuade me otherwise. In this instance, however, Bill O'Reilly is one of the all-time greats and is one of the better-known cricketers of his era. I'm not convinced the American O'Reilly will be remembered 70-80 years past the peak of his career. I'm glad we've had this proposed move though - it's highlighted how inadequate the Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) page is, and I see it has improved a lot since it gained this attention, jguk 11:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
        • Since you obviously have no intention of assuming good faith, and seeing as you've been needlessly and rudely confrontational from the off, I don't see that it will be profitable for either of us or for Misplaced Pages if we continue to debate this. --Ngb 14:01, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Why would I be a fan of old Bill? I think you're a very big fan of younger Bill :) User:Nichalp/sg 09:10, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • Errrmm... do you get "Star World"? Fox News and Star World are both owned by Rupert Murdock and I'm quite sure O'Reilly is sometimes on Star World (but perhaps not recently?)... Sortan 17:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, I do get Star World; its an entertainment channel. They show programmes like Friends, Desperate Housewives, Buffy the Vampire Slayer etc. I fail to see how a news channel figures here. I haven't said I haven't heard of FNC, I said that it is not received here. Murdock owing the channel has nothing to do with O'R. User:Nichalp/sg 18:14, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose AlbinoMonkey 00:56, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose - Regardless of which one of the more prominent, there is no hugely asymmetrical difference between the two. Having Bill O'Reilly as a dab page strikes me as the best way to go. Guettarda 18:14, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Neutral

• Neutral. I was attracted here by Wikiproject cricket. Although I feel the cricketer is more famous to a wider audience than the commentator, and will have a longer lasting impact, I have no strong opinion on this particular proposed move. -dmmaus 02:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

I disagree with your assertion that the commentator is any more notable than the cricketer. This is almost certainly true within the boundaries of the United States, but I would contest that the opposite is true in many other English-speaking territories (the UK, Australia, India, etc.). I would expect many people outside of the US never to have heard of Bill O'Reilly (commentator), whereas Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) is widely notable in those countries as one of the best leg spinners ever. Don't forget that this is an international encyclopaedia, not just an American one. --Ngb 19:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

You won't play the "American bias" card with me, sorry. I've lived abroad for well over three years now, most of it in Australia, am married to a Commonwealth girl, and Bill O'Reilly here is very noteworthy as one of Rupert Murdoch's top men. This is not a matter of systemic bias, and I'm tired of seeing Wikiproject Cricket pretend that it is. Shem 08:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I don't see where I mentioned 'American bias' here. I noted that while the move proponent's assertion would be true within the US (where Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) is certainly less notable, I have no reason to believe it is true internationally -- and this is an international encyclopaedia. --Ngb 08:59, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

You're implying it, heavily. Or was "don't forget this is an international encyclopedia, not just an American one" just you shooting the wind? Shem

I'm afraid I'm not sure what 'shooting the wind' means, but I assume it's derogatory. So, no, it means exactly what it says. I was reminding the move's proponent that in other parts of the world than the US -- parts of the world that this Misplaced Pages covers -- it's by no means a clear assertion that either of these two Bill O'Reillys is more notable than the other. --Ngb 14:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

So you agree that this is an international encyclopedia? That means a dab page would be the most neutral thing here. Thank you very much. User:Nichalp/sg 13:41, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. I have never heard of the commentator, but know of the cricketer. --Q 19:29, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) only has 10 other articles linking to it, most of them athlete lists. His article also claims that he was known as Tiger O'Reilly -- was he known by this to the point where his article could actually be titled Tiger O'Reilly? We can also add For the Australian cricketer, see: Bill O'Reilly (cricketer) to the top of this article, once it's moved. Shem 21:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

No, he was and is mostly known as Bill O'Reilly, jguk 07:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Tiger was an affectionate nickname only. He was always called Bill. Unlike Tiger Woods, for example. --Jack 12:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

May I suggest that the discussion is getting a bit too heated? Attacking the person with opposing views to yours makes your own argument look weak. I am addressing this to people on both sides. Stephen Turner 14:54, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

It's interesting to note how many of the same WP:Cricket members voted against making Cricket a dab page, but insist of keeping Bill O'Reilly a dab page (switching reasons when it suits their purposes).... imho, both should be dab pages, but the hypocrisy demonstrated here is saddening. Sortan 17:45, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Where is the hypocrisy there? It is a case of consistency, not hypocrisy. Cricket is a major world sport while the insect is of interest to insectologists, of whom there are far fewer than there are cricket fans. As far as an individual like Bill (Tiger) O'Reilly is concerned, there is always the possibility that he will have a namesake who is well known in some quarters and you have to be prepared to disambiguate there. I have, for example, come across a situation only this morning regarding a cricket writer called Christopher Lee and I accept that his namesake, the actor, is better known; another cricket writer is called John Ford and he is nowhere near so well known as the film director. --Jack 12:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

There's no hypocrisy, and no switching of reasons. I believe that Cricket is more notable than Cricket (insect), but that Bill O'Reilly (commentator) is not more notable than Bill O'Reilly (cricketer). (Similarly, and also without hypocrisy, I believe that London is more notable than London, Arkansas, but that Milford, Derbyshire is not more notable than Milford, Connecticut.) Simple. My reasons for these beliefs are stated in the appropriate places. Your mileage may vary. --Ngb 17:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Sortan, I tend to agree with you that they should both be dab pages, but let's please not start the name-calling again — it's not "hypocrisy", or even contradictory, to believe that cricket (sport) is much more prominent than cricket (insect), and that neither Bill O'Reilly is much more prominent than the other. In fact they're rather consistent views; it depends how notable you think cricket (sport) and cricketers are. So although I disagree with those people's conclusions, I think they hold a perfectly sensible point of view. Stephen Turner 18:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about Sortan - it's a sockpuppet account used for trolling (see his user contributions and you'll see what I mean) and more recently following me around objecting to everything I do. He's best ignored for what he is, jguk 18:16, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I was attracted here by the note on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket. It is impossible for me to judge how well known and influential the commentator is in absolute terms, as I had never even heard of him before. He demonstrably does not have a high profile in many countries outside the USA. Likewise, it is impossible for people who do not know much about cricket to gauge the fame and importance of the cricketer. I suggest that either party in this disagreement making claims about the notereity of the other O'Reilly is talking about something of which they are largely ignorant. That is not a good way to come to an agreement about their relative importance, as we can see. Judging purely on the facts available to me, I conclude the following:

• The cricketer is one of the best known players of his era, in a sport of large global importance. He is of significant historical importance in the sport, and well known to many cricket followers.
• Cricket has more followers than any other sport in the world except for soccer. It is not a minor sport. Therefore, it would be reasonable to say that more people in the world know of O'Reilly the cricketer than, for example, Cy Young the baseball player - a player of similar importance in baseball to O'Reilly's importance in cricket.
• However, I would not be surprised if considerably more people searching Misplaced Pages for "Bill O'Reilly" were looking for the commentator than for the cricketer. I base this conclusion on the fact that the cricketer is, indeed, dead and not frequently thought of by current cricket followers, whereas the commentator is clearly a contemporary figure and has a significant following in the USA. If Cy Young was the name of a significant political commentator in England, I suspect more people would be searching for Cy Young the commentator than Cy Young the baseball player, for the same reasons.

Therefore, I do not oppose the proposal to move this page. But I am unable to form a solid opinion on how notable O'Reilly the commentator really is, so I cannot vote in support either. -dmmaus 09:17, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

The American is unknown outside his own country and, let's be honest, this is yet another baseless assumption by Americans that, if someone is well known in the USA, it follows they are internationally famous. The rest of the world is not interested in America and this TV personality is completely unknown in the real (i.e., rest of the) world. As you have said, Bill (Tiger) O'Reilly remains a famous figure in the world's second most popular sport. Oh, and by the way, thanks for telling us all about Cy Young. I can now name three baseball players: Babe Ruth; Billy Bonds' namesake; and Cy Young. --Jack 12:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Being the #2 sport in the West Indies and India does not make it a major sport. There are at least 100 more major sports in the world in the olympics, which cricket is not, having been removed. Also, since India is extremely tech savvy and dominant in the internet, then Google analysis is an appropriate way to find out about the cricket "Babe Ruth." The cricketer: 4,430, Babe Ruth: 706,000, O'Reilly Fox News: 246,000. I think that says it all. --Noitall 12:59, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

By population it is a major sport. Conservatively speaking I would put the number of cricket fans in India at 25% the total population. Now that's about the entire population of the United States. Cricket has a presence in 90 countries. I'm sure you didn't know that. Your figures only tell us that there are more internet users in the United States than in India. User:Nichalp/sg 13:18, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Wiki is interested in world-wide notability. Your analysis does not even touch on the figures I noted that address worldwide notability (removal as Olympic sport, very few Google mentions in comparison). --Noitall 13:23, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

That's because your figures are self-evidently ridiculous. Selection as an Olympic sport is not predicated on notability, and Googlecounting is meaningless. --Ngb 14:17, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

The ICC has never really pushed cricket to be an Olympic sport. They don't get hard cash. I'm beginning to get the feeling that you know absolutely nothing about the sport of cricket. The Olympics has a fixed quota of allowed sports. I'm sure you know that. Notability has nothing to do with the Olympics. Its the global reach of the sport and the people who follow the sport. This site shows that cricket has reached your backyard. User:Nichalp/sg 14:49, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion moved my talk page after diatribe regarding greatness of India and cricket:

Your being a fan of cricket and India has blinded you to the realities of Wiki, where the issue is notability. Your sport got removed from the Olympics long ago and does not even merit a write-up by the International Olympic committee, being less notable than the sports of Rugby and Tug-of-War. --Noitall 14:08, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

You're getting a little too hot and personal here. I suggest you cool down. User:Nichalp/sg 14:49, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Presumably the reason there's no writeup is because Cricket's participation in the Olympics was very ad-hoc and only recognised afterwards: see Cricket at the 1900 Summer Olympics. --Ngb 14:17, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

BTW, I have cited the only 2 pieces of evidence (the International sport body and Google notability) here in this discussion (other than rabid fandom) and the evidence is objective and normally used in Wiki to determine such matters. --Noitall 14:32, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Why do you keep citing Google? Its not an absolute or accurate metric. User:Nichalp/sg 14:49, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Only a complete idiot would regard Google results as "evidence" and cricket is noted for the intelligence of its participants. Besides being the 2nd most popular sport on Earth after football, it is also the 2nd most tactical, after chess. As for the Olympics, there is no doubt whatsoever that football is the most popular sport on the planet but it treats the Olympics with utter contempt (and quite right too because the Olympics is riddled with corruption and drug abuse). In the Olympics, a handful of under-21 football teams compete for "Olympic glory". Hardly on the same level as the World Cup or the European Cup, is it? --Jack 15:12, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I admit, you are very passionate for your sport. But you need to take your arguments elsewhere, perhaps to some Cricket blog, if you choose to ignore the only objective evidence and argue against Wiki standards. --Noitall 18:05, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

WHAT Wiki standards? Do please tell us and provide some links to pages on Misplaced Pages which rule that Google hits and participation in the Olympics shall determine the merit or otherwise of a particular sport. Also, answer two simple questions. One, are baseball and American football "major sports"? Two, are they in the Olympics?

And finally, are you aware that the guy who raised this issue in the first place has subsequently done a bit of sensible research, has realised that cricket is a much bigger sport than he originally thought, has apologised for his error and has formally withdrawn his proposal? It's all in this page. --Jack 18:38, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Baseball is in the Olympics, believe it or not, as of 1992. But yes, participation in the Olympics and Googlecounting are not useful grounds for establishing the notability of a sport. --Ngb 19:11, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

It is for now, and will be played in the Beijing Games. However, it's been axed, along with softball, from the London Games (and by the IOC before anyone asks), jguk 19:14, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest Noitall visit this club to learn more about cricket. Its in Maryland, his area of expertise. Talk about cricket's global impact! User:Nichalp/sg 18:57, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

A small point of fact that I can contribute. Since 1900 cricket has never been eligible to be in the Olympics. IOC rules set guidelines for number of countries in which a sport must be established to be included in the Olympics (which cricket easily passes), and also that both men's and women's versions of the sport must be administrated by a single administrative body. The International Cricket Council and International Women's Cricket Councils merged only this year. Cricket's absence from the Olympics says nothing whatsoever about its global presence, as IOC rules prohibited it from being included for a different reason. This argument is getting us nowhere, by the way. I suggest we have an admin look over what has passed, make a decision, and stop fussing over it. -dmmaus 01:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopedia

Could anyone imagine an encyclopedia writing in it's own voice "As if that was not enough to demonstrate this poor grieving woman was unhinged?" Hipocrite 16:52, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I think since this line was inserted directly after that CHEAP SHOT quote of hers, that a little context on how deranged some of her other statements are is quite apropos.

Remember, this entry is about Bill O'Reilly. W When did it become a forum to post every hateful comment about him by fringe left elements?

This is just one of at least TWENTY examples of hateful left wing biased spin in this article.

It's hilarious if you think this nothing more than an O'Reilly hit piece masquerading as an encyclopedia entry.— Preceding unsigned comment added by BigDaddy777 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

The correct response to a bad article is to fix the article, not make it worse. If you go through, line by line, and make changes that make me think that the article is more encyclopedic, I'll defend them. If you go through and start attacking other editors in the main body of the article, you will be blocked from editing wikipedia. Hipocrite 18:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. Let's get it on.

One of the easiest things to correct, as it's pervasive throughout the entire entry, is the cheap shot at the end.

My grandfather used to teach me that you can learn the most about someone by the way they enter and the way they leave.

There are countless paragraphs in this entry that have a pretense of objectivity, but always end with a shot at O'Reilly.

You'd think the liberals who wrote this would know better than to overplay their hand, but I guess not.

Here are just a few of the egregious examples:

NOTE: These are the last sentences of sections pertaining to subjects or people O'Reilly has confronted on the air.

CINDY SHEEHAN "Sheehan subsequently refused to appear on O'Reilly's show, calling The O'Reilly Factor "an obscenity to the truth and an obscenity to humanity."."

LUDACRIS

"O'Reilly, who had voiced strong opposition towards Ludacris' alleged degradation of women, had no retort."

NEIL BOORTZ

"To this day, Boortz retains a general disdain for O'Reilly, which he shares with fellow Atlantian and occasional studio guest, Ludacris."

JEREMY GLICK

"Glick and his supporters deny O'Reilly's allegations, and maintain that the transcripts show that he said nothing of the sort."

IRAQ & TERRORISM

Actually, it seems like someone cleaned this one up already. It used to be some outright attack from MMFA. Now it just ascribes their disagreement to them. That's a step in the right direction.

But I could go on and on with these last second cheapshots.

Each taken individually by themselves MIGHT BE, by the lowest possible standards, excusable.

But taken as a whole, it paints a picture. A horribly biased picture where, in virtually every SINGLE disagreement, O'Reilly turns out to be wrong.

Even in the French boycott section, where O'Reilly's claim of a one billion dollar trade loss was confirmed, it was phrased in a way that cloaked his vindication.

All in all, it's a hatchet job... straight up.

And I can't believe no one has called Wik out on this before...

big daddy

Ps To break it apart line by line is NOT the way to correct this. I'd say begin by gutting all these unnecessary entries about Glick and Sheehan, all of which add NOTHING to understanding O'Reilly other than to help his political enemies make him out to be an ogre.

In fact, if you read the entire entry from start to scratch, the ultimate conclusion you come away with is that O'Reilly is a right wing bully who pretends to be something he isn't.

What a coincidence!

That's EXACTLY what his political ENEMIES want you to conclude.

This entry is a classic example of old school liberal bias -

Arrange the facts in such a way that no SINGLE point can be entirely disputed but ultimately leaves you with the conclusion THEY want you to have.

Sorry, that is NOT neutrality.

Big Daddy 20:50, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking about going through that point by point, but I decided not to. Instead, I edited your comment below to a form that people would be able to discuss without getting pissed off.

I think that a critical and pervasive problem in this article is the snide remark that ends many of the paragraphs. I've found a couple examples, and feel there are many more.

CINDY SHEEHAN: "Sheehan subsequently refused to appear on O'Reilly's show, calling The O'Reilly Factor "an obscenity to the truth and an obscenity to humanity."."

LUDACRIS "O'Reilly, who had voiced strong opposition towards Ludacris' alleged degradation of women, had no retort."

NEIL BOORTZ "To this day, Boortz retains a general disdain for O'Reilly, which he shares with fellow Atlantian and occasional studio guest, Ludacris."

JEREMY GLICK "Glick and his supporters deny O'Reilly's allegations, and maintain that the transcripts show that he said nothing of the sort."

While alone these seem acceptable, the pattern that emerges paints O'Reilly as turning out wrong in every conflict.

Even in the French boycott section, where O'Reilly's claim of a one billion dollar trade loss was confirmed, it was phrased in a way that made that ambigous.

Then, you follow that up with 1 or 2 concrete changes you want made. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:59, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip,

I still can't get past the fact that no one...I mean NO ONE. has objected to this HATCHET JOB before.

Check this little piece of the O'Reilly entry out and tell me it's not a TOTAL SMEAR -

" FAIR, a media watchdog group, published a book, The Oh Really? Factor, documenting false accusations and inaccurate statements that O'Reilly has made on his show. FAIR notes that O'Reilly distorts the news by framing it through his bias. For example, after the Supreme Court ruled that public hospitals could not test pregnant women for drugs and send the results to the police without consent, O'Reilly commented: "Coming next, drug addicted pregnant women no longer have anything to fear from the authorities thanks to the Supreme Court. Both sides on this in a moment" (O'Reilly Factor, March 23, 2001)."

Big Daddy 21:06, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not at all surprised that an encyclopedia with over 1,800,000 articles in over 100 languages has one article that one person things is so terribly objectionable, and is shocked, shocked that it still exists. I've made a number of encyclopedic edits to the article itself to address some of the concerns you brought up. I'm doing way too much time doing research on stuff you don't like and way to little time helping you do edits. I'm not the expert on polidrama played out on the cable news screamshows, and I certainly don't want to be one. You're the expert, so why am I doing the editing? Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

"You're the expert, so why am I doing the editing? ??"

Ummm...Because EVERY time I tried to edit, it was COMPLETELY erased by that other editor, so now, I'm half-afraid, that if I DO edit anything, they will ban me.

Big Daddy

ps Thanks for trying to make me out as the bad guy here. Big Daddy 21:18, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Be Bold. I'll back you up if you deserve it, and you're not going to get banned if you don't talk about other editors. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip,

Bold I can do.

Take care,

Big Daddy

Ps Give me a few days, I really want to be fair in approaching this. Allow me to become familiar with the entries of some of the other talking heads in here. I think it'll help in my efforts to be objective. Big Daddy 21:44, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Its day 3 of your wikipedia career--I'll give you a few months. You triggered a bunch of peoples "vandalalarms" with the usertalk in article space, and so the world looked harsher than it was. Conservaburnout seems reasonably prevalant - I'm not going to posit on why. Bold isn't reckless - if you write something, and you think it might piss someone off, best to write it to the talk page first, let people hack at it, and then, if you listen and incorporate the right changes into your proposed change, it's always good. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

For starters, I suggest we replace this entry:

Some critics contend that O'Reilly often makes up facts and figures to support his points. FAIR, a media watchdog group, published a book, The Oh Really? Factor, documenting false accusations and inaccurate statements that O'Reilly has made on his show. FAIR notes that O'Reilly distorts the news by framing it through his bias. For example, after the Supreme Court ruled that public hospitals could not test pregnant women for drugs and send the results to the police without consent, O'Reilly commented: "Coming next, drug addicted pregnant women no longer have anything to fear from the authorities thanks to the Supreme Court. Both sides on this in a moment" (O'Reilly Factor, March 23, 2001).

With....

That's right, nothing.

Just get rid of it. It's an unredeemable hatchet job by a left wing organization not even named as such.

If some of you want to defend it's inclusion, knock yourself out. It woul then be only fair to include a section in the Al Franken entry articulating Bill O'Reilly's grievances with him...

After all, we want to remain POV neutral, right?

Big Daddy 03:49, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Could you explain what's wrong with the paragraph without talking about liberal bias or doing bad things to someone else's article? Is FAIR a liberal media watchdog group? I'm done doing research, but the change that I see to that paragraph is "FAIR, a liberal media watchdog group, accuses" Hipocrite - «Talk» 04:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip,

The answer to your question is found in your question itself. You asked "Could you explain what's wrong..without..doing bad things to someone else's article?"

Well, the only 'bad' thing I suggested doing to 'someone else's article' is what was done here to O'Reilly. So apparently we are in agreement that it's bad, right?

Ps I've read portions of 'The O'Really Factor' it's a nit picking hatchet job that only brings up tiny minutae that have no bearing on the overall theme of O'Reilly's messages.

It is true that O'Reilly, being kind of an old guy, stumbles on his words a bit and sometimes isn't too artful in expressing his views. (He has gotten a little better lately.)

But to EXPLOIT these insignificant tendencies and leverage them to an entire book is just sad.

And that's what FAIR did. They are his enemies.

Reference to this book has NO place in this article.

They do NOT document false accusations etc. They only SAY they do.

But again, if this is fair game, keep it in. I only want to be evenhanded here. I've got a few comments from O'Reilly and Limbaugh about Al Franken, Bill Maher and Bill Moyers that I'll be HAPPY to include on their pages.

Big Daddy 14:20, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

You can't negotiate tit-for-tat. That's not how it works. Make this article better. I suggested one change to the paragraph, which you failed to comment on. What you suggested was "This article is terrible, and unless I'm able to do with it what I will, I will make this other article just as bad! I don't think this article is bad per-se, but I see areas for improvement. You should feel free to do the same. So, without talking about liberal bias or other articles, what needs to be done to fix this? Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:51, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip,

It should be eliminated. Period.

Ps Also the Sheehan segment should go. What the hell does this have to do with Bill O'Reilly? The liberals have tried to turn this into a left wing blog. There's no long term significance to the way O'Reilly covered the Sheehan story.

I edited out that last comment from her about his show. It was TOTALLY gratutious, mean-spirited and hateful. IOW, it's completely consistent with the way non-liberals are treated here in Wikipedi! lol!

I also took out that sentence where Media Matters (of all people) tried to 'clarify her intent' regarding the discrepancy between her first and second interviews about the Bush meetings.

Now THAT is pure liberal spin. Let the facts speak for themselves.

Interview #1: Effusive praise for how Bush handled himself and posed for a photo being kissed by him and holding his hand.

Interview #2: Bush is the anti-Christ.

None of this belongs on O'Reilly's page anyway but let's all please curtail the liberal hack job on every single commentator they don't like.

This is not metafilter.

Big Daddy 00:17, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip Writes: "Conservaburnout seems reasonably prevalant - I'm not going to posit on why."

Oh, I'm starting to get an idea real fast. lol!

Hip: "You can't negotiate tit-for-tat."

Don't worry Hip. I have no plans to go to Franken's site and trash him the way liberals trash O'Reilly. It's just not in my makeup. I guess that's just a liberal thing...

Hip: "What needs to be done to fix this?"

Give me a little bit of time. I'm still busy fighting battles on the Ann Coulter and Cindy Sheehan site. So many biased articles...so little time.

Big Daddy 02:24, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I find it incredibly difficult to treat you with respect when you have such utter disrespect for an institution that I have grown to love, and the contributors that have made it what it is. Misplaced Pages is not about "fighting battles," or "defeating liberals." You need to STOP FOCUSING ON EDITORS AND START FOCUSING ON EDITS. Hipocrite - «Talk» 08:43, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Hip writes:

"I find it incredibly difficult to treat you with respect when you have such utter disrespect for an institution..."

Well, I hope you'll re-think that position. I would never disrespect another human being just because I disagree with them about an institution.

If you don't think that, at present, there's just a few reasonable people fighting off an ONSLAUGHT of liberal bias in the articles pertaining to non-liberal commentators, then we're just not reading the same Misplaced Pages. If you look at the talk page for Ann Coulter and see the nitpicking, church-lady, vicious attacks on her about why she's such a liar and makes stuff up and all the typical boilerplate liberal caluminty, it makes you wonder if you're on Wik or dailykos.com

Not to mention the countless times dailykos, democratic underground and media matters are used as SOURCES! I would never think to use lucianne.com or freerepublic.com etc as resources. It just seems too unseemly.

So, like it or not, this is what I see.

And I think it's a little disingenous of you to play the 'disrespect' card when it's blatantly obvious to any reasonable person just how tilted left these entries are.

Now, having said that, I'm encouraged by the changes that have recently been made.

Plus, I realize in my zeal to propose these changes, I violated several aspects of Wiketiquette which is why I've scaled back my work here so as to get a better feel for how the Wik community operates.

It IS very exciting to be part of something that has such great potential like Wik.

An internationally collaborative effort like this has never been attempted (or even been possible) before.

But it is biased. I'm sorry if that offends you. It's got an inherent bias because so many of the editors are liberals like yourself but somehow think a whole bunch of 'fair-minded' liberals' (which you also are) can create a bias-💕.

But, that's just not true. Wik, in my view, needs to admit it has a problem in this regard and go out of it's way to recruit conservative editors.

I notice when I bring these points up you always try to deflect them but never counter with articles that disprove my point.

I think there's a reason for this. You probably can't.

The articles about Al Franken and Michael Moore don't have separate sections, primarily sourced by their SWORN ENEMIES, filled with endless attacks about how bogus they are. Maybe a choice quote here and there, but not complete sections.

But the articles on Coulter, O'Reilly do. (BTW, for a few laughs, go to the Sean Hannity article. It's almost got as much cheap shot criticism and far left liberal links than it does a basic bio!)

In conclusion Hip, I think an apology is more in order. An apology that Wik has been allowed to be OVERRUN by left wing editors that have allowed this stuff to go on for so long.

But, if you want to personally attack my analysis, go ahead. That's another thing that makes Misplaced Pages great.

Big Daddy 14:12, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

There is no chance I am apologizing to you, nor am I addressing your concerns about Misplaced Pages at large in the talk page for Bill O'Reilly, because this is not the appropraite venue for such discussion. You have posted yet another screed about liberals owning this encyclopedia without proposing substantive encyclopedic change to the article, and thus I choose not to respond to you. More edits, less editors. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

HipOCRITE,

I am beginning to question your abilities as an editor at Misplaced Pages. You seem to lack the most basic skills of reading comprehension and in addtion to an obviouls lack of common sense. However, I do not want to make this a personal attack. I'm just questioning how you could write the above and be serious.

I'm not concerned about a PERSONAL apology to ME. For one, I'm not offended. But you and all other liberal editors at Wik (and conserative ones for that matter) owe the internet community an apology for positing Misplaced Pages as something that it is not. Neutral.

Secondly, if you wanted to apologize, who said you had to 'do it here.' You certainly could have left a message on the Big Daddy Talk page, right?

Anyway, I did provide a

I excised this statement regarding Roger Ailes of Fox News:

"(and architect of the infamous Willie Horton attack ad)"

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to figure out why, but for those not quite as bright, let me break it down.

You liberals are insane!! You are so DRIPPING WITH HATE FOR FOX NEWS that you can't even mention Roger Ailes without cheap shotting him?

Why not just say ...'Roger Ailes of Fox News, who has a large ass boil on his right butt cheek!'???

Because that's how the inclusion of that totally out of left field Willy Horton comment in the Bill O'Reilly article appears to REASONABLE people.

Good God liberals....chill out. The constant oozing of all that hate can't be good for your health...

Just trying to help,

Big Daddy 18:23, 5 September 2005 (UTC)