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Like Wikidemo, I also am not convinced it should be mentioned, however if a consensus emerges after a day or so on LoLE/Norton's wording I won't stand in the way. Brothejr (talk) 12:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Why are we proposing words here for something that does not yet appear in the sub-article that this section summarizes? Please take this to the sub-article first. There's plenty of room for improvement there. Summarizing here first seems kind of presumptuous. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why we need to do one before the other. They're independent matters. I've presented facts and we've begun discussion, let's see if we can come to agreement. I think that since this is a pretty simple factual matter which isn't in dispute (not the language I'm proposing, anyway), we have some hope of getting a consensus quicker than with Ayers, Wright or Rezko. No sense in letting this discussion go stale. I have every intention of adding to the sub articles, including some of the information I posted near the top of this thread, but I've only got so much time. Noroton (talk) 04:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Rick Block is absolutely correct here. I can support a brief addition to the main article, but definitely not before there is mention in the child. This main bio is written in WP:SUMMARY style, and hence should limit itself (to a very close approximation) to summarizing material in linked children. I don't see a real problem, Noroton, for you to edit the child to include a concise and neutral mention that we can then (perhaps) summarize.

FWIW, I now believe the association with ACORN is a bit more biographically important than others Obama has had, and hence could merit a short mention. But it's only a bit over the threshold, and I certainly think Wikidemo and others are making good faith judgments in thinking it falls below that threshold. Moreover, I don't actually see any evidence that ACORN has "become embroiled in scandal" or anything of that sort... except in the illusion created by recent and bad-faith edits to the ACORN article. People with politics greatly opposed to those of ACORN have long opposed it, and over four decades ACORN has had a few issues with employees and staff acting improperly, but it's hardly a situation of "newly revealed corruption and misconduct"... except in the imagination of a few extremist bloggers. LotLE×talk 06:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with nearly everything LotLE says in the FWIW paragraph just above. It's important enough to mention. The organization is not embroiled in a scandal but it does have critics (don't we all). This is not an association that Obama or other politicians have run from. Should information on the runup to his state Senate race be in the "Early life" child article or the "State senate" child article? It's also rather annoying to be told I've got to do extra work when editors on this page aren't even doing the little bit of work of reading the evidence I've provided on this page. Noroton (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Few more words shorter

What about this reduction of a few more words: ''In this role, Obama coordinated with the Chicago chapter of ACORN, a nationwide social action group that has supported Obama's political career.a nationwide social action group that has supported Obama throughout his political career. Any objection to this minor trimming? First thing though, is that we need something in the "Early life" child to summarize by a sentence like this. LotLE×talk 08:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

If we cut out longtime we remove a key justification for the sentence. If they were just any old supporters at some particular time, then there's much less reason to mention them. As you've said, there is reason to believe the relationship is important and "longtime" indicates that. There are much better places in the article to save space. Noroton (talk) 16:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

My prior version didn't have the word "longtime", but it did have "throughout", which I just restored. It didn't seem necessary, but it doesn't seem harmful either. But you're OK with the relative indexical clause, right Noroton? Since this sentence will follow immediately after "directed Project Vote", we shouldn't need to give the full description of the role in the next sentence (and it doesn't mention the chapter/national thing that Bdell has doubted). LotLE×talk 18:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm fine with it. The word throughout makes the importance of the group clear enough. It isn't possible to explain in this article all the elements that make the relationship important, and that should be done elsewhere. I'm all in favor of adding to the child articles, by the way. Noroton (talk) 19:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Why is there a proposal for text that explains what ACORN is when it is my understanding that Obama worked for Project VOTE!, rather than ACORN? There is no source that describes any formal association with ACORN that I am aware of. I'm not even sure why any mention of this is being considered when (a) there is very little coverage to speak of, and (b) what coverage does exist appears to be contradictory and largely opinion-based. Any additions to this article (or the daughter article) must be backed up by cast iron sources, not a few that seem to contradict each other. We must be sure of the facts first, and even then a case must be made for its importance to a biography of Obama's entire life. Like others have suggested, I am convinced this is being considered purely because of the perception that ACORN is a left-leaning organization tainted by fraud and theft allegations. Noroton admitted he wouldn't even have been looking at this if it weren't for a whiff of controversy, which seems like agenda-based editing to me. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The only ones here insinuating any type of negative connotation between Obama and ACORN are those that are fighting tooth and nail to keep it from the article. I saw the original statement (not even remotely negative) and then saw it removed because of weight concerns. A little google searching indicates that not only did Obama work with ACORN while doing the Project Vote stuff, it appears to be a major connection, and he is apparently proud of his work. I'll state it again, the connection between ACORN and Project Vote is too large to ignore. To fight to not include the ACORN stuff, when there is noone here that is trying to make any claim of scandal implies a censorship because those that are obviously for Obama want to make sure that even an implied negative light against Obama is extinguished before it begins. The fact that some are fighting so hard against this to me is much more suspicious that Obama's connection to ACORN. It should be further noted that the WSJ article makes this connection clear, and Obama hasn't made any comments to suggest that it is not true. If people feel this strongly against the mention of ACORN then take out the Project Vote section. To include one but not the other is extremely misleading and disengenious. Arzel (talk) 15:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Arzel's suggestion that the Project Vote section should be removed from the main article. It is not unusual for politicians to get involved in "get out the vote" campaigns. The matter should be fully explored in the daughter article, where the problematic nuances of the ACORN/Project Vote relationship (with respect to Obama) can be properly explained. The WSJ opinion piece by a conservative commentator, if used, can be properly balanced with some left-leaning opinion commentary (if it can be found) to preserve the neutral point of view that is desired. - Scjessey (talk) 15:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, you have no excuse for ignoring the evidence of the long, close ties Obama has with ACORN, which I provided evidence for at 04:01, 13 July (amended at 04:29 that day), and not far below it, my 05:28 post that day. You've also ignored my argument for the sentence I actually want to put in, which avoids the problematic nuances by stating things in terms that are fully sourced (which you would realize if you actually read the posts I've just referred to). I have no problem at all with more information on this being added to the child article(s), and with Obama's prominence, it's worth a paragraph in the ACORN article, too. This really should be a noncontroversial addition because the Obama/ACORN relationship is clearly important, solidly sourced and a simple fact, which is just exactly the way I'm proposing to present it. Noroton (talk) 16:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I think, Scjessy, that this issue became clouded by the initial conspiratorial claims on this page that Project Vote was somehow "run by" or "a puppet of" ACORN caused this to seem like a different issue than it should be. We should not include mention of ACORN because of Obama's job with Project Vote; but that does not necessarily mean we should not mention them period. Some points:

• Project Vote and ACORN are completely separate organizations that happened to have cooperated on some projects. Project Vote is a smaller organization with a narrower purpose (voting rights), while ACORN addresses many issues for poor and minority communities. FWIW, I knew of ACORN since the late-1970s (when I was a teenager), but they've been widely known since the 1980s at least.
• The WSJ editorial doesn't even vaguely resemble WP:RS, it's a screed that we should not consider as a citation. However:
• ACORN is a large and well-known political organization that has endorsed, campaigned for, been trained by, and worked on common project with Obama. This is more true of ACORN than it is true of other large political organizations. If UAW, or League of Women Voters, or Sierra Club, or AARP had a similarly close relationship with Obama for a similar length of time, I'd want to mention it. He has said good things about all of those organizations, and they of him, but the connection isn't as close as with ACORN.
• Project Vote belongs in the main bio. Even though it was brief, state-level director of a major organization is a significant achievement for a young guy out of law school. It might not be unusual for a young politician to be involved in "get out the vote", but it's also not unusual for them to practice law, write a book, get married, and lots of other things that we do want to mention Obama in particular did.

LotLE×talk 18:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Again, ongoing accusations of "censorship", "ignoring" evidence, editing disingenuously, and POV-pushing are disruptive and will only increase tensions. If you want to make the case to include this content, perhaps you should actually make the case rather than announcing that you've proven it already. Obviously a number of people are unconvinced. Although Noroton has said many times he has provided ample evidence, I have combed this very long discussion as best I could and read all of the sources I could find, and do not find them persuasive. There is clearly no formal affiliation of Obama and ACORN, and the contacts they have had are either indirect or far too ordinary and minor to make an issue of them here. The negative connotation of ACCORN are not a product of this page - they are being stated vociferously off Wiki by partisans trying to defeat Obama's Presidential campaign. Wikidemo (talk) 18:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Project Vote. Please read ALL of the contemporaneous account (1993) at http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-1993/Vote-of-Confidence/ which clarifies that what Obama headed up was a Cook County chapter, not an Illinois chapter, and it was indeed part of the national organization. Sounds like some of you read the top third of the article and jumped to some comclusions. This was not some 'typical' political involvement thing. I also don't see the connection with ACORN (and I did read Michelle Malkin's article, but that was about fairly recent issues in other states - I don't see the connection with Obama). Flatterworld (talk) 16:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

If you're going to oppose language on ACORN and say that you don't see the connection, you can't ignore the overwhelming, incontrovertable evidence I provided at at 04:01, 13 July (amended at 04:29 that day), and not far below it, my 05:28 post that day. Please look it over. Noroton (talk) 16:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Wow! What an utterly absorbing account! The excellent Chicago Magazine piece gives amazing insight into the community organizing Obama was involved in, and it is definitely more elaborate than I realized. Obviously the Project VOTE! thing deserves some mention after all, and there is plenty of material for the daughter article. Tellingly, there is no mention of ACORN, so I guess there is no need to stuff it in the article in the hopes of making an OAK out of it. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(whistles, looks up) "Nope, no other evidence around here. I don't see any other evicence at all, no how, no way. Gosh, you'd think if there were anything to this connection, there'd be some evidence on it that editors could post right on this page." Put the telescope on the other eye, Lord Nelson. Noroton (talk) 17:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe Project VOTE! is lumped in with ACORN now, but it appears that was not the case back when Obama was actually involved. The organization is specifically described as a non-partisan "get out the vote" initiative, and there is no mention of ACORN. The only reason I can see for bleating about ACORN is to try to associate Obama with ACORN's left-leaning tendencies and issues with personnel in other parts of the country. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to recap your position: The New York Times, ACORN itself and Obama himself and the Chicago Reader and the Los Angeles Times and Social Policy are not good enough for you and therefore there is no connection between Obama and ACORN worth mentioning. Have I got that right? I mean, I could quote from all those sources but ... I already have. You've come up with a new criterion: It's got to be contemporaneous now (and every single source has to mention it?). It's so boring to watch you ignore evidence put right in front of you (repeatedly). Think I'll stop now. Noroton (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

That might be wise. If you do want to state the case for inclusion you probably should show us everything you have, in a methodical way in a single place. I see all the diffs. As I mentioned before I (and apparently others) have tried to review arguments and materials from throughout this discussion and remain unconvinced. I don't see that the case been made, and castigating other editors for not agreeing with you is not going to make the point any clearer. Wikidemo (talk) 19:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Although I think I've put my case together in a methodical way more than once, I'll do it again on a separate page in my userspace and link to it from here. I find this a burden, especially when Rick Block is suggesting other burdens, but I'll do it, probably tonight, and I won't complain about it. Just read it with an open mind when I do. Noroton (talk) 20:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(after ec) - Yet again, you focus on the editor rather than the subject being discussed. And now you add a layer of sarcastic incivility for good measure. Let me spell out my view one more time. A brief summary regarding Obama's ties with Project VOTE! should be included in the main bio. A fuller description that includes details of how that organization is related to ACORN, and how ACORN has supported Obama (neutrally-presented, of course), should feature in the daughter article. This dovetails with what Rick Block has been saying above. Also, I agree with LotLE that the WSJ is unusable screed. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I think all the links in my comment at 17:49 speak to what I'm focusing on and what you're not focusing on. Noroton (talk) 20:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(Unindent)Add to article.Just my .02. with 50 more we would have a dollar , and with a lot less a consensus built.Die4Dixie (talk) 22:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Case for ACORN proposed language, restated

Per Wikidemo's request, I went over my evidence and my proposal, made it neat and presentable and posted it here: User:Noroton/The case for including ACORN. Please look it over and comment here rather than there. I wrote it up there because it's almost entirely a rewrite of what I said in various spots on this page, so I'm not sure that it would contribute much to this page. Perhaps it should be moved here for archiving purposes (input on that would be appreciated). If it changes any minds or if someone can show me where the case is weak, let's discuss it at this spot. Noroton (talk) 02:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This section is written in summary style. Per Misplaced Pages:Summary style#Keeping summary articles and detailed articles synchronised editors should first add any new material to the appropriate places in the main article (which, in this case, is Early life and career of Barack Obama). The wealth of detail and references should be applied to this article first. To some extent this is a procedural objection. My intent is to refocus the energy here someplace where it will be more immediately productive. If the energy that has been spent on this talk page had been spent on the sub-article, I imagine the sub-article would be much better. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Be that as it may, the current summary of Project Vote in the main article simply repeats what is already in the sub-article, so it may be that this entire aspect isn't worthy of inclusion in the main article and the whole section removed and devoted to the sub-section. That said, the wording by Norton is, in my opinion, quite good. Arzel (talk) 04:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll be happy to add details about ACORN to the "Early life" article. In reading up about Obama and ACORN, I found a lot of interesting, valuable information about Obama and Project Vote that would be ideal for that article. Project Vote is more important in Obama's career than I'd thought: It really seems to have helped him launch his political career. It sounds like a very good idea to synchronize between the two. Noroton (talk) 15:34, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I read all of Noroton's stuff, even registering to read that story about ACORN, and looked around some more. See http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=4143 ACORN's 'allied organizations' of which Project Vote is just one among many, and it's a pretty diverse bunch. Some are connected more closely than others with housing issues. Obama was hired by Project Vote, not ACORN, to do the (highly successful) voter registration. As you can see from the article I linked to earlier, people were very impressed with his planning, strategy and execution of the job - it was what got him known in Chicago (as opposed to the communities he was working in). On a broader note, there is NO shortage of organizations eager to inflate, fabricate, or otherwise state a connection with someone as now-famous as Obama. They'd all like to 'bask in the glow', and that's understandable. John Fund in the WSJ conveniently left out connections and dates, as that would spoil his story. It's what he does, and we're all used to it (especially now that he has Murdoch to impress). I certainly don't feel responsible, or even connected, with problems which happened after I stopped working for various companies. Why would anyone rational try to make that non-existent connection? imo any information about the relationship of these 'allied organizations' is best addressed in the ACORN article and/or the Project Vote article. Unless you want to start a precedent in which every mention of the (London) Times, WSJ, Fox News, etc., etc. include a mention of News International and Rupert Murdoch. I'm sure some would like to connect some dots with Obama, ACORN, low-income housing in general and Rezko in specific, but this is really a stretch too far. Obama did a voter registration drive. It was successful. It got him the attention of movers and shakers in Chicago. They were impressed, and saw a lot of potential in him. End of story. Well...maybe the beginning. ;-) Flatterworld (talk) 05:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Do any of those other affiliations run voter drives, Flatterworld? Provide a source that says "Obama was hired by Project Vote" quote unquote or "Project Vote hired Obama" quote unquote. Without such a source it cannot be said that Obama was not, in fact, hired by ACORN (as one can read, quote unquote, by opening a copy of the Wall Street Journal) to work with Project Vote in Chicago in 1992. The Obama campaign says "In 1992, Barack Obama returned to Chicago after law school to direct a massive voter registration effort called Project Vote". Why does Obama say that Project Vote was the name of the registration drive as opposed to the name of an organization that hired him? Because Chicago Project Vote is better understood as something that was done (for ACORN) than as something that is. One can say "Obama worked for Project Vote" or "Obama was named director of the local Project Vote operation", but one can just as easily say that "Gene Kranz worked for Apollo 13" or "Kranz was named director of the Manned Space Center in Houston" and that doesn't mean Kranz wasn't hired by NASA. Yes, there is an ongoing national organization called Project Vote, but it is the voter registration arm of ACORN. The ongoing argument over whether he was hired by Ford Canada Ltd as opposed to Ford Inc is ultimately a red herring. What matters is that ACORN was "smack dab in the middle" of an event that the Chicago media says "raised a new political star". The idea that a mention of ACORN is an attempt to tie in scandals makes no sense on its face, because A) the scandals like "Jive Turkey Sr" were, in fact, committed by people who nominally worked for Project Vote as opposed to ACORN (ACORN, of course, is mentioned more frequently in indictments and media reports because it's legally liable) and B) Obama has no objections to calling attention to his association with ACORN; in fact, when he said "I've been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career", the one example that he pointed to was the Illinois registration drive.Bdell555 (talk) 09:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

No, it's obvious that Obama worked for Project Vote, not ACORN. The question is whether the two are so closely affiliated that the connection is worth mentioning. Wikidemo (talk) 09:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly obvious that he worked for Project Vote, just as it is obvious that Gene Kranz worked for Apollo 13. It is not obvious at all, however, that Obama did NOT work for ACORN (or that Kranz did NOT work for NASA). For what it is worth, Obama himself felt that ACORN's role was "worth mentioning" with respect to the registration drive ("smack dab in the middle").Bdell555 (talk) 09:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Bdell555, I've never figured out why it is important that Obama worked for ACORN as opposed to Project Vote. I think you've made the best case possible for it, and there are certainly some statements out there that he worked for ACORN. I just don't think we know enough about the Project Vote/ACORN relationship to know if it's fair to say he actually worked for them, so it seems like a strain to state it baldly when it's just not that straightforward in so many of the sources. Noroton (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Noroton, I am NOT taking issue with users like yourself who believe it's "not straightforward". I am rather taking issue with those who claim "it's obvious that Obama did NOT work for ACORN". We "don't know enough" to say that. This claim that he didn't work for ACORN on the 1992 voter registration drive is then used to argue against any mention of ACORN by insisting that all we have left are the facts that subsequently he trained ACORN staff, ACORN staff worked for his campaigns, etc and that those alone don't meet the threshold of notability.Bdell555 (talk) 17:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I read too quikly. I see what you mean. Noroton (talk) 01:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(@ Flatterworld) I agree with you 100 percent that there's a very interesting, important story about Project Vote, and it needs to be in the Early life article. You say, there is NO shortage of organizations eager to inflate, fabricate, or otherwise state a connection with someone as now-famous But there aren't even a handful that can claim the long, deep connections with Obama that ACORN can. The evidence I provided shows a strong connection -- what other organization has been so important in his life story, has that kind of connection with him and is not mentioned in the article? Noroton (talk) 15:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Noroton, Chicago is filled with organizations (and individuals), and Obama's worked with plenty of them, particularly as a state legislator. That's goes with the job. ACORN was one of many, but I expect its standing as a national organization, as opposed to a local one, accounts for its higher profile in most reports about Obama. People outside of Chicago simply wouldn't be familiar with the rest. I expect Mayor Washington had a big impact, but how many people outside of Chicago know much about him? Obama's actual "long, deep connections" are with community organizing itself, not particular organizations or particular people. He believes in "bottom up" change, and voter registration is certainly an important step in that. That was the important point that's stayed constant in his career, and who was funding Project Vote and/or who was in charge of it is essentially a red herring. If it was fairly irrelevant to Obama, why is it so important to you? Why this constant attempt to find some 'nefarious operatives' who 'launched his career'? We've been through Rezko, Ayers, Alice Palmer, now we're at Project Vote. I'd prefer we write an article about Obama himself, not what some would like to imagine him as. Meanwhile, my issue remains one of consistency. We don't constantly point out Murdoch's connections with all his owned entities and employees (perhaps we should!) so I don't see why Project Vote should be treated any differently. Anytime someone is adamant about changing precedent, without giving a good reason, I'm skeptical. Flatterworld (talk)

Has Obama ever said "I've been fighting alongside on issues they care about my entire career?" If there is a better example of Obama's connections to community organizing, it's time to get specific: name ONE out of these legion of associations you contend would have to be mentioned as well as ACORN on the basis of "precedent" so we can examine whether consistency would really be impossible to maintain were we to exclude it and not ACORN.Bdell555 (talk) 17:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

(@ Flatterworld) Your statement Why this constant attempt to find some 'nefarious operatives' who 'launched his career'? is interesting. Why do you think ACORN is nefarious? If you don't think it's nefarious, what's your objection to leaving out of the article a simple statement about it and Obama? If Obama's ties with other groups unnamed in the article are as longstanding or deep, it should be easy to find sources indicating that. I've done the work of looking up these sources, but you don't have any. Instead you're giving us suppositions (I expect and I'm skeptical). Which groups has Obama trained members from for year after year? Which groups have given him support in all his election campaigns? Acorn is worth a sentence. Oh, and you say we don't point out Murdoch's connections with his "owned entities". Actually, we do. It's in the News Corporation box at the bottom of the Rupert Murdoch page. Noroton (talk) 20:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

So...point out ACORN's connections with its "owned entities" at the bottom of their own page - pretty much what I suggested. These connections simply don't belong on Obama's page, and it has nothing to do with my personal thoughts on ACORN, but what some are trying to paint ACORN as being. To clarify my point, this constant attempt to find some 'nefarious operatives' who 'launched his career'? refers to the meme that he's a puppet, a Manchurian candidate, a 'front man' (which of course brings to mind Bush and Cheney) with no thoughts, ideas or plans of his own. Is it really so impossible to believe he actually did his own work, launched his own career, is running his own campaign, and would indeed 'be his own man' in the White House? Occam's Razor. Flatterworld (talk) 21:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Insults (particularly the removed-from-reality last sentence, which has nothing to do with anything I've ever said) and assumptions of bad faith are not adequate talk page arguments. The existence of memes is not an adequate reason to oppose an addition of information to Misplaced Pages for Misplaced Pages's encyclopedia-building. Noroton (talk) 21:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why you insist on taking my posts personally. I of course have no idea of your nationality, preferred political party or anything else. Nor do I care. I was clarfiying my earlier post for you, which you clearly misunderstood. As for our job, it's to stick to the facts, not look for 'evidence' to support memes which are untrue to begin with. We start with relevant facts, and let any conclusions follow. We do NOT start with conclusions, then try to dig up evidence that supports them. Flatterworld (talk) 22:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I notice you haven't answered my questions in the 15:21 and 20:58 posts. Nor did you explain how your assigning low motives to me (somehow concluding that I don't believe he actually did his own work) doesn't violate WP:AGF. Here's another: which facts in my proposed sentence do you dispute? If you're going to insult other editors, not provide any relevant facts or bring up policy objections, your not worth replying to. Unless you start doing that, I'll be ignoring you. In forming consensus, we can ignore trolling. Noroton (talk) 00:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

"Project Vote, the nonpartisan arm of Acorn" appears on http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12047Bdell555 (talk) 06:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Bdell555's latest source contains yet another refutation that PV is a subsidiary of ACORN: On September 27, ACORN, working frequently in partnership with Project Vote, recorded our one millionth voter registered since our non-partisan voter registration campaign began in July 2003! LotLE×talk 06:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

An organization can partner with its "nonpartisan" arm to work on nonpartisan projects. That's doesn't mean its partner isn't its arm.Bdell555 (talk) 18:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggest again that this be addressed first in the sub-article

Can somebody please explain to me why we're in such a big hurry to include this here? Checking the history of the sub-article, it's not obvious any of the editors involved in this ruckus have ever contributed to that page. My suggestion (above) to edit there first has been largely ignored. Are we writing an encyclopedia here or waging some sort of campaign? It's been said before but I'll repeat it - this is not the place to conduct a political campaign. I'm tempted to move this entire thread to Talk:Early life and career of Barack Obama but suspect this would be hastily reverted. There's absolutely no way to enforce this but if everyone could please stop and think for a minute or two about why they're editing here (on this page) I'd appreciate it. Furthermore, if the honest reason you're here is more related to the current presidential race than creating an encyclopedia please spend your time elsewhere. Write a blog. Volunteer for whatever political party you choose to. Canvass your neighborhood. But please go away. I'm not going to name names, but if you think this may be addressed to you it probably is. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:42, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you not set up non-Misplaced Pages standards for discussion on this page. Personally, I stayed away from editing the article (or, frankly, even looking at it for weeks) when I saw that people would make edits, see them reverted and then start edit warring. I have no intention of wasting my time on that, getting involved in two or more debates about Obama at the same time rather than just one at a time. You've also said we should edit the other "child" articles, but there's no Misplaced Pages requirement to do that first or second. There's no "big hurry" to include this just because we're not debating it for a month or so. This is still, actually, longer and more elaborate than the normal discussion to get a sentence into a long article. Furthermore, if the honest reason you're here is more related to the current presidential race than creating an encyclopedia please spend your time elsewhere. Who are you to say what interests are legitimate or not legitimate for Wikipedians whose motivation is to have a WP:NPOV-compliant article and who want what's best for the encyclopedia? I've given reasons for my proposed language, please address them above. Noroton (talk) 19:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not talking about interests but motivation. If someone's motivation for being here is to contribute to an NPOV encyclopedia and wants what's best for the encyclopedia, then that person is in the right place. Someone who's motivation is to try to help or hurt McCain's or Obama's electoral chances or slant this or any other article (in any direction) is not. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

All right, I misread you. Noroton (talk) 03:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Rick is right, because this is a biography of a whole life and career of a notable individual, not a profile of a presidential candidate. And this article is written in WP:SUMMARY style, with an expectation that it summarizes what is found in its subarticles. The same logic is applied to many biographies across the encyclopedia - we shouldn't be putting something into a summary section that isn't summarizing something that is found elsewhere. Tvoz/talk 03:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Nonetheless, procedural maneuvers should never discourage contructive expansion of the encyclopedia. Eg a normal sequence for WP's growth is for somebody to contribute Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor to a main WW2 article before a subarticle section giving it coverage would be created and fleshed out.

And as for motivations for contributing here: it's not us WPdian's job to get anybody elected or stop them from being! Yet, due an often liberal bent to the contributors here (including me, actually), how this bias usually gets manifested is through folks' cutting otherwise notable material not because of its own lack of merit but from fear opponents will use it as a coat rack.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 16:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Rezko Again

Apropos this addition, are we done with Rezko or not? I've reverted for now because additions like this need to be discussed on the talk page per the steps we took to calm last month's trouble. I thought we had moved on. Is there any need to re-open it now? If we re-open the question of revamping the Rezko material we can consider this new change but we should put cards are on the table, including the possibility of scaling back existing coverage. I also wonder if it's a good idea to consider two contentious matters at the same time. Wikidemo (talk) 06:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This edit looks out of process to me. After a month of discussion, virtually every editor strongly opposed such long and POV description. The addition is brand new, long, contentious, and poorly written paragraph. Maximally oppose adding this material. LotLE×talk 06:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Lulu, your I'm sure sincere critique sounds like sloganeering to me. Short and sweet I'd just referenced the embarrassment that an early Obama contributor had later been convicted for corruption unrelated to Obama. But if it was too long you could suggest how to recast it more economically, if it's too yuckily written you could suggest how to wordsmith and phrasesmith it aright. And as for your hyperbole of its contentiousness----although it's never been my goal to imply anything negative about Obama whatsoever (I like O, support him, will vote for him), I think the basic circumstance of the Rezco matter deserves brief mention since it's obviously considered important by the serious sources that go into B's early years in politics.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 07:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

no reaqson not to consider more than one at a time. I suppose if we wait every time, the rate of addition will be eclipsed by the general election --Die4Dixie (talk) 06:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree completely with LotLE that this material should not have been added - and agree with Wikidemo's revert. We've already considered this to death, Die4 - you might want to spend some time reading the talk archives - but be sure you're in a comfortable chair. Tvoz/talk 06:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The amount of talk generated is indeed impressive. Consensus can change and I for one am willing to go back and work though these things again.Die4Dixie (talk) 13:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Considering the bruising debate literally just ended, I doubt consensus has changed since the weekend. Barring new developments surrounding the issue, I doubt you'll find many people willing to take up the matter again. --Clubjuggle /C 16:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

"Not I", said the little red hen. Tvoz/talk 03:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid if long-time contributors can't see how zero mention anywhere of Rezco mars WP's coverage and don't notice that the guidelines' suggest the inclusion of reasonably balanced and well-sourced contributions, only later to refine them and worry about their most proper placement, this doesn't speak well to the effectiveness of these editors' self-supposed neutrality.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 18:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

"zero mention anywhere"? See Barack Obama#Family and personal life (2nd paragraph). Then click the link in the 2nd sentence. There's an entire article about Rezko here, with a convenient link to it from this article. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, the talkpage Rezko commentary was so convoluted I never really read any of it; then when I did finally read Lizza's New Yorker mention of Rezko in context of B's initial foray into politics, I made my suggested contribution, but only after skimming the article and somehow getting the impression that mention of him had been excised still pending an elusive compromise among the talk page War and Peacers. But the long and the short of it is that I have to apologize here for my brain lock.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 19:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

JMHN, you can surely be forgiven for that. A lot of good editors were driven off. Even Noroton was driven off in the end. By the time Rick Block called the question on a drastically shortened version, the only editors left were the ones who have been fighting the inclusion of any criticism all along. Minus one of their number of course, who was afraid of beng outed, I suspect, as a Democratic Party operative. Inevitably Rezko must come up again, if only because the conservative 527s are going to inevitably use any controversy to Swiftboat Obama. Hopefully the group of editors who discuss the future editing of the Rezko bit and other avenues of criticism will be more balanced and less acrimonous. WorkerBee74 (talk) 15:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Sandy Newman

If "who hired Obama to run the 1992 voter registration drive?" (the event that "raised a new political star" to quote the Chicago Mag) is still a question, I think the indisputable answer is that it was one Sandy Newman. It appears Sandy Newman also founded Project Vote in 1982. If he founded Project Vote as the voter-mobilization arm of ACORN, I think it's fair to say that ACORN hired Obama to run a voter mobilization project in Chicago, although Sandy Newman would be more direct. If Project Vote was not created by ACORN, I'd concede the point that Obama has not hired by ACORN to run this project.Bdell555 (talk) 19:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Good, since Project Vote was not "created by ACORN, we can end all this silliness then.

As your source shows, it was Sandy Newman who founded Project Vote.... but in English, we don't attribute corporate action to individuals. So just as Obama worked for Project Vote rather than "for Sandy Newman", I worked for IBM, not for Herman Hollerith (nor even for Samuel J. Palmisano). LotLE×talk 19:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This source says "Project Vote is another get-out-the-vote group. It was created by the radical group ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) and it is set up as a 501(c)(3) charity."Bdell555 (talk) 20:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The Capital Research Center couldn't be described as a reliable source by any conceivable measure. The "radical" characterization should have been the obvious clue there. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC) -- Strike that. I had not seen your edit summary until after I responded. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

That's one reason we have a reliable source requirement. Editors who say things at other places aren't necessarily any smarter or better informed than editors here, and they're likely to make the same mistakes and have the same prejudices as we do here, or worse. In the world of politics, and also when talking about their own accomplishments or networks of connections, people often throw about misinformation about who started what, who runs what, who is affiliated with whom. We really have to insist on accuracy here, and the best we can do is find the best sources that do the underlying research and fact check it with a critical eye. Wikidemo (talk) 20:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

From the New York Times, Sept 26, 2004: "... Project Vote, the nonpartisan arm of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or Acorn." Not an opinion piece/editorial.Bdell555 (talk) 20:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere. Let's compile a list of top flight sources to make sure it's not a mistake there or controverted by other equally reliable sources, and if it looks solid then it's safe to say the two are connected, on the assumption that in its news stories, profiles, and features (as opposed to op eds) an organization like NYTimes does fact check every statement like that. Wikidemo (talk) 20:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Legal name of Project Vote appears to be "Voting for America, Inc". Contact e-mail is given as somename?@acorn.org.Bdell555 (talk) 21:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

From the Baltimore Sun, January 12, 2007: "The suit was filed on behalf of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, also known as ACORN, Project Vote/Voting for America"Bdell555 (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Don't be so quick to strike out that source. It represents further evidence that Project VOTE! and ACORN are not the same organization. Project VOTE! is an independent, non-partisan charity. Although obviously associated, employment by one organization is not synonymous with employment by the other. It would be a bit like saying a FOX News employee was also a Wall Street Journal employee, just because they were both owned by Rupert Murdoch. Aaarrr! -- Scjessey (talk) 21:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe I already addressed this point when I provided the Kansas City example of someone who nominally worked for Project Vote but was ultimately considered to work for ACORN. Anyway, the author of this October 2007 article describes himself as "deputy director of Project Vote. Project Vote provides support to ACORN's voter registration program." It suggests that Project Vote is the voter registration arm of ACORN by Project Vote's own account.Bdell555 (talk) 22:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

From TIME magazine, October 18, 2004: "... Project Vote, a nonpartisan arm of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN)..."Bdell555 (talk) 22:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you even bother to read the source you provide, Bdell555? What the Sun article says is: The suit was filed on behalf of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, also known as ACORN, Project Vote/Voting for America and a current director and former activist with ACORN. In other words, there are three plaintiffs in the suit:

1. Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (also known as ACORN)
2. Project Vote/Vote for America
3. An unnamed director of ACORN (who is plaintiff under his/her own name).

My guess would be that the individual joined because of standing issues that the organizations might not have where an individual does; but that's speculation on the reasons. The three distinct plaintiffs part is clear. LotLE×talk 21:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a fair speculation that Project Vote is legally independent of ACORN for tax reasons only.Bdell555 (talk) 23:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

That is quite likely. I even think it's likely that ACORN is one of the major funders of Project Vote, and I don't doubt that many members of the board of the one organization are quite friendly and familiar with members of the other board. But it means something to incorporate a 501(c)(3): it means that the created organization needs its own bylaws, its own board of directors, its own staff, it must file its own tax documents, etc. All of which means: they are two separate organizations (sympathetic, sure; sharing goals, yes; and organizationally independent). I don't know whether Sandy Newman specifically had any formal relationship with ACORN when he founded Project Vote; but it makes no difference. I myself, ofr example, have served simultaneously on boards of multiple non-profits: you are required to wear different hats in the different roles.LotLE×talk 23:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe readers are much interested in whether Obama's project was incorporated under subsection 501(c)(3) or not. Of interest here is not legal technicalities or formalities like whether someone works for Ford Canada Ltd or Ford, Inc, but for whom Obama's project was for in non-technical terms. Note that the Beldon Foundationgave a grant "to Project Vote/Voting for America for its ACORN Alumni Mobilization Project to reach out and re-connect former staff into its voter outreach and turnout campaigns"; - although the grant was routed through Project Vote, the project itself was described as an ACORN project. Note also the use of the word "staff" here suggests that whether "staff" are Project Vote or ACORN is not a meaningful distinction.Bdell555 (talk) 23:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Figuring out agency / affiliate relationships based on a choice of co-plaintiffs in a lawsuit is awfully convoluted. Standing follows different rules, perhaps, than other things. What's the problem here? Wikidemo (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's review here. When TIME magazine noted that someone was a "director of Project Vote", TIME believed it necessary or preferable to immediately add that Project Vote is an "arm" of ACORN. When the New York Times noted that someone was "was hired by Project Vote", it likewise believed it necessary or preferable to immediately add that Project Vote is an "arm" of ACORN.Bdell555 (talk) 22:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

All of this "proof" you are presenting will not change the fact that the two organizations are independent entities. Obama was employed by Project VOTE! You cannot say he was employed by ACORN, because that would be inaccurate. At the most, you can say Obama worked with ACORN as part of his role at Project VOTE!, which gives you the hook you would need to note ACORN's support for Obama. All that being said, it is something best discussed here. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, when we report who someone worked for we report their actual employer (or if it's a shell company, IPEO, agency, their nominal employer). This doesn't prove Obama "worked for" ACORN, but it does tend to show that he worked for Project Vote, a _____ of ACORN. The blank might be "nonpartisan project of", "entity formed by the founders of", or whatever. Wikidemo (talk) 06:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Edits on cultural image

I strongly disagree with the reverts being done, trying to suppress the explanations of Obama's church attendance. It's not soapboxing, and it's not wikipedia's place to 'avoid hot button issues.' Relevant details that have been removed:

• Obama's conversion to Christianity under the tutelage of Jeremiah Wright. This is a prominent part of his autobiography. I can find and use direct quotes, if necessary. The point of the article is to describe his life and his cultural image. His conversion is a significant part of this, and Jeremiah Wright's role in it is, too.
• The Obama campaign's descriptions of his church going activity. In a section about religion, this is quite pertinent. Trilemma (talk) 22:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Two much detail for this bio. I can actually endorse some mention that clarifies a widespread false belief, but exactly how often he attends church, and how that changed slightly after the birth of his children, etc. is just too much minutiae for this. Moreover, Obama's relationship with Wright is already discussed elsewhere, so there is not need for duplication. Wikidemo's edits for conciseness were very good, but I have trimmed it a little farther, retaining the essential point. LotLE×talk 22:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This section should have its own page; then the space concerns wouldn't be so prominent so as to stand in the way of including relevant information. The McCain version is already its own article, so I don't see any reason this shouldn't be either...Trilemma (talk) 23:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. A fair bit of interesting stuff was cut out a while back due to space concerns, but there was no discussion about expanding it into it's own article. Part of the problem is that much of the article would consist of opinion, because a person's "image" is not a tangible thing you can support with straight facts. That would make it a difficult article to keep neutral, and it would (potentially) be a magnet for the kind of soapboxing mentioned above. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think a good starting point would be to compare it to the McCain counterpart page, and then work off that. Trilemma (talk) 22:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Muslim School

There is some misinformation in the media regarding Obama's schooling. Please read this link. Should we address this issue? Pierre.cardoone (talk) 03:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

In a perfect Wikiworld, first, we would have already sourced B's exposure to Muslim beliefs and practice, sourced nativist fears and concerns, sourced neutral campaign coverage acknowleging his campaign's deemphasis of this arguably minor exposure, and sourced partisan criticism that the campaign had thereby mislead the public; and then would have crafted carefully nuanced, encyclopedic coverage of this very noted matter. Finally, we would have been able to build consensus to include this coverage without its being completely vetoed by some faction. (Alas, similar to those making a brouhaha over the NYer cover cartoon, some WP contributors believe that while they themselves can appreciate subtle distinctions and make sense of complicated realities, they can't allow themselves to trust encyclopedia readers to process whatever the facts and draw their own conclusions.)  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 04:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Oops, sorry I didn't realize this was a one of the discussion-first pages. I probably should have figure that out with the election months away.

Anyway, I'm thinking at some point we should talk more about the rumors and misconceptions circulating in the new media and online. The New Yorker cover at least for the moment is the posterchild for topic. The edit I attempted to make admittedly is lengthy, but perhaps it can be scaled down and worked into a new part of the prose:

As rumors of Islamic upbringing continued to mount, The New Yorker magazine published a political satire cartoon on the cover of it's July 27, 2008 issue depicting the Obamas as anti-American Islamic militants based on those allegations. The depiction immediately drew criticism from Obama's supporters as well as his presumptive Republican opponent, Sen. John McCain, accusing the magazine of publishing an incendiary cartoon helping strengthen the rumors and misconceptions in support of his detractors. Editor David Remnick explained that the cartoon is intended to be viewed as a satire of Obama's critics themselves resorting to tactics of fear, but acknowledged the concern that it can be misunderstood, particularly by those unfamiliar with the magazine. Obama, in an interview on Larry King Live shortly after the magazine issue began circulating, said that he understood the satire, but was disappointed by the results saying, "Well, I know it was The New Yorker's attempt at satire...I don't think they were entirely successful with it...I do think that, you know, in attempting to satirize something, they probably fueled some misconceptions about me instead."

What do you guys think?Thinkbui (talk) 09:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

What do I think? I think this is a low point in American politics, of turning simple things any thinking person understands quite well into fodder for political mud-slinging. Of course we hit these bottoms every four years. As far as whether this belongs in the article, no, it is a trivial piece of ephemera. Perhaps worth placement in an article about the various events arising in the run up to the election, but not a bio of the candidate. Wikidemo (talk) 09:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

WD's initial, blogworthy comment encapsulates partisan counter-critique of the nature of some of O's opponents' criticms, as parodied by the NYer's notable cartoon. In any case, Lulu's deletion of Thinkbui's entire contribution is another example of how subtle bias creeps into WP's coverage through "proceduralism"; and, in fact, WP's guidelines specifically and plainly discourage the quick deletion of balanced and well-documented, notable information from an article it most naturally at first fits in, until/unless another article somewhere picks it up, to to ensure WP contains as encycopedically complete of coverage as possible.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 17:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

We should accurately describe his upbringing and clearly address any widespread misperceptions. However, that doesn't mean that we should do so by focusing on a particular magazine cartoon that happens to be dominating the news at the moment; it would be preferable to take a wider viewpoint of events and perceptions over the last couple of years in which Obama has been in the public eye. —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 17:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's July 2008 and WP has somehow managed to avoid doing so (this secret explained by the inequity of some championing such additions' having been banned for warring while others who warred to delete the additions' being allowed to remain). While we look beyond any past inequities, however, let's now stand up to those favoring deletion of balanced, sourced material, in the present case by our leaving cartoon coverage here until the hole otherwise in coverage would be filled.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 19:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The proposed addition was blogworthy; I responded in kind. A single incident like this is utterly not pertinent to Obama's biography. It doesn't say anything about him, his career, etc. It's just a random incident in the election process. As neutral sourced content of perhaps lasting notability (after the WP:NOT#NEWS hubbub dies down and we see how notable it really is) it may belong somewhere, but not here. Wikidemo (talk) 20:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't necessarily call it 'random', but agree that in the grand scheme of things that it would end up as a trivial detail if it stood by itself. What I'm suggesting is that it be used as an example of some of the skirmishes Obama's had to fight on the campaign trail regarding his upbringing. Honest question here: though this cartoon wasn't intended as an attack on him, does it stand out since it's suppose to represent the collection of rumors that are started/perpetuated by his critics?Thinkbui (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Obama's birth certificate is fake?

This issue seems to gaining currency. I've read a lot about it on many web sites. Here's an analysis that looks convincing to me.

Pierre.cardoone (talk) 03:18, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It may look convincing to you, but the link you provided is a personal blog, hardly a reliable source suitable for verifying your claims. The birth certificate claim is an Internet rumor that has no place in a neutral, verifiable encyclopedia. szyslak (t) 05:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Szyslak is right. There's no RS that takes this claim seriously. Trilemma (talk) 22:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Polling data

I've just removed this from the last part of the "Cultural and political image" section:

Although Obama is Christian, polls have shown that some Americans believe incorrectly that he was sworn in to the Senate on a Quran (12% in a Newsweek poll), is Muslim (12% in a Pew poll), or was raised Muslim (26% in a Newsweek poll).

Although technically correct, I think it a snapshot of public opinion that isn't particularly biographical and has WP:RECENT issues. It may be more suited to the campaign article. I'm not a big fan of parentheses in articles, but that's just my opinion. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Misperceptions about Obama's religious background have been a persistent issue for months now; it's not just a fad in this week's news, so WP:RECENT does not seem to apply. And widespread misperceptions about someone's background seems to me like an obvious issue to be addressed in a biographical summary of the person. This is not a campaign question per se, as it has nothing to do with Obama's political platform - it's simply an item about his biography that is widely misunderstood. Moreover, it goes well with other items discussed in that section of the article, e.g. I'm not sure why you think it's good to discuss perceptions about his cultural background in connection with the African-American community, but not in connection with the Christian community. And once we say in the article that it is widely misunderstood, it immediately follows that we need to back up that statement with quantitative polling data - we can't just say "some Americans" (see WP:WEASEL). —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 16:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that any such 'discussion' would fit better in the campaign article (or a separate article, or one about campaign tactics) than in this main article. Let's just stick to the facts and not get sidetracked about who said what when to whom and where. We've all seen the photos of the school on CNN, we know it was and is a secular school in a predominantly Muslim country, and we all understand the concept of WP:WEIGHT. Flatterworld (talk) 17:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're referring to, precisely, with your reference to WP:WEIGHT. Here, we're talking about one sentence in a a long article, describing misperceptions about someones biography held by 10–25% of Americans, perceptions which have been a persistent issue in the public discourse for months now. How is that giving undue weight to minority views? How is this not sticking to the facts or getting sidetracked? And what do photos of the school have to do with this one sentence? I'm confused...does your comment belong in the previous discussion section about Muslim schools? —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

This article is written from a historical perspective. Adding details that are justified by snapshot polling data presents problems, particularly when these numbers are constantly changing (the recentism issue). We already fully explain Obama's past, and that should be sufficient. You are suggesting we tailor the article to allow for the lowest comment denominator, the so-called "low information voters" who prefer to believe gossip over factual evidence. That isn't a very encyclopedic approach. It is the responsibility of Obama and his campaign to educate these people, not Misplaced Pages. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Scjessey that snapshot polling suffers from WP:RECENTism. However, per Stevenj, the general prevalence of a misconception of Obama's religion or religious background seems like a notable biographical feature (it's not really about Obama so much as about a probably deliberate attempt by opponents to engineer a perception, I admit). If we could mention the widespread misconception without going so far into poll-of-the-week, that would be ideal. I don't care whether is is 12% in one poll and 18% in another (with questions phrased slightly differently), nor whether it jumped 2% between certain months, nor whatever false specificity... still, this has been a longtime and widespread thing. LotLE×talk 18:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no evidence that these numbers are changing rapidly over time or vary a lot between polls, which would be the only reason to make a big stink about quoting a specific polling number. If I recall correctly, a couple months ago a poll showed 10% of Americans thought he was Muslim, which is pretty close to the 12% in the recent Pew poll. This has been a persistent phenomenon since Obama became a presidential contender, and has been a major issue in his "cultural and political image" (to quote the title of the section we are discussing); it is very far from a "poll of the week" kind of thing. The article doesn't quote zillions of polls and compare margins of error over time or anything like that; it just quotes representative recent numbers on typical issues (whether people think he is a Muslim, or was raised Muslim); I really think the supposed "recentism" is being blown out of proportion. You have to quote some hard statistics, or you are left only with vague weasel words like "some Americans think".

In any other Misplaced Pages article, there would be no debate about the article directly addressing a major misconception among a significant fraction of the public about the subject of the article; I don't know why there is so much resistance here to a single uncontroversial factual sentence on the topic in a section on his "cultural and political image". To say that a single sentence on a widespread misconception is "tailoring the article for the lowest common denominator" is gross hyperbole, and hence unpersuasive. —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 21:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I do not share Scjessey's concern about "low information voters", nor think the mention of the misconception about Obama's religion is "tailoring for lowest common denominator". My only concern with the level of detail, really, is that the current sentence presents three separate figures for "is muslim", "sworn in on Quran" and "raised muslim". While I obviously realize that those beliefs are logically independent, they all seem to fall under the same general misconception; reading them myself, my mind goes off in mostly superfluous directions to try to figure out who falls in the N% gap between the one misconception and the other, what is the overlap, etc. I recognize StevenJ's point that we need to cite something for support, but I'm not sure the concrete figures in the body text really add anything. We might be able to use some more general phrase like "widespread misconception", and let readers consult the footnotes for the numeric specifics. LotLE×talk 21:51, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem with just saying "widespread misconception" is that it is a weasel phrase. How widespread? There's no reason not to make it quantitative, and it much more informative with an actual number in the text, rather than buried in the references. It's not like we are inundating the reader in numbers; we're talking (ad nauseam) about a single sentence here. (At the very least, we should keep the numbers for both whether he is Muslim or was raised Muslim, as the latter misconception seems vastly more common according to the statistics and is quite distinct from the former misconception. I can agree with removing the statistic about being sworn in on the Quran, as that doesn't seem to add much beyond the number of people who think he is Muslim now.) —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any point in saying anything like "widespread misconception", "falsehood", etc. We state that he converted to Christianity and speaks of it regularly (once this gets its own article, the greater elaboration on accounts of his church activity can be restored), and then we say that xyz people still believe he is a Muslim. Anything more than that is redundant and spoonfeeding. Trilemma (talk) 23:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It is still a mistake to quote specific poll numbers, because these numbers are utterly irrelevant when viewed from a historical perspective. These numbers can (and will) change, so having the article reflect a particular point in time is a mistake. Moreover, I am right about the "low information voter" problem. The article already documents the true nature of Obama's background, and it does not need to be repeated in another section to allow for those people who don't read the article properly. Snapshot data is better presented in the related campaign article, because it is polling data that is directly connected to the campaign itself. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous - even when talking "from a historical perspective", you still talk about events and statistics at particular points in time. Sure, it wouldn't hurt to attach a year to the poll numbers. And if the numbers change drastically in the future it should be updated --- but even in that case the widespread false impression in 2008 that Obama is a Muslim is a major part of his image in this pivotal campaign year for him, and it's hard to imagine that a historian writing 10 years from now would not mention it when talking about his public image. How can we have a section on his cultural and political image and not mention in that section a misperception of his religious background that has played a major role in that image to date? —Steven G. Johnson (talk) 00:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I think Stevenj make a good point to distinguish the description of Obama's actual background from a description of his perception. Those things really can be distinct from each other, even at odds. Let's try to move this to something less specific for a moment: Some prominent politician (not Obama for now) might be perceived as being a "bold leader", or being "inept", or being "a womanizer". None of those characteristics are ones we can simply state about the politician as a biographical fact; however, each of them may be significant aspects of the public perception of a given politician. Given evidence of such belief being widespread, I think the belief can be encyclopedic to characterize (especially if citable to specific polls). Even unfair or inaccurate reputations can be biographically important. LotLE×talk 00:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, particularly given that this is a section (and eventually, article) on his image ;) Trilemma (talk) 00:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It is unclear what article it is that you anticipate will eventually exist, but for now let's work with the articles that actually do exist. If you create some new, encyclopedic article, we can take that into account in terms of what to link, summarize, whatever. LotLE×talk 01:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm a tad bit busy to be creating a fairly significant full length article right now, and when I do get more time, I want to concentrate on some Rwandan figures, but basically what I think is necessary is a full length article as the Cultural and political image of John McCain exists. Trilemma (talk) 01:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

• Back to "polling data

To give it a timeline I would like to add something like this:

After widespread rumors early in the primaries xx % still believe....etc"

Any objection/inputs out there? --Floridianed (talk) 02:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Comic relief

For all those Wikipedians who have been working so hard on this article, a little comic relief for you. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

w/ apologies--->Rbt. Zimmerman  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 16:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

(rings handbell) Hear ye, last chance to comment

@ Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Obama family (2nd nomination)!  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 17:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Superfluous information

The discussion on the fact that Obama is not a Muslim keeps growing out of proportion. Some editors (mostly one) keep finding material that is "interesting", and expanding the discussion to include each new cite and quote. I do not even disagree that the material is interesting, nor that it's properly cited, but try to remember that this is a main biography. This and that ancillary person concurring that Obama is a Christian, or more-and-more trivia about the fact, doesn't convey anything further about the minimal encyclopedic point.

In particular, this sentence was recently added (repeatedly) without discussion by a certain editor:

James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute expressed in a news report (reacting in part to a satirical New Yorker cover) that ethnic caricature involving faulty depiction of Obama's faith harms Muslim Americans, impeding their "opportunity to participate in the political process."

Zogby's a good guy, and makes an intelligent comment. The New Yorker cover is notable over at Wikinews. All of it adds up to material that has no relevance to a main biography. It's pure WP:RECENTism, and brings the tone down to chatty discussion of issues rather than encyclopedic presentation of facts. Moreover, the real topic of the sentence only uses Obama as a vague touchstone, while actually being about the other (interesting) topic of the position of Muslim communities in the US political process, or something along those lines. This material just doesn't belong in this article. LotLE×talk 20:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Setting actual positions aside for a sec, Lulu----let's talk "m.o." When an article is watched by a crowd, if a Wikicontributor makes a deletion that raises a controversy with a Wikicolleague, proper Wikietiquette says, "Wait and see if another Wikicontributor steps in who agrees with ya and if not, just let it be."

Wikiwatchers will murmur, "Whoah! Two casual bystanders in agreement. Powerful"----or else, "Hmm! Noone else around agrees. Must not reflect much consensus, or at least for the moment."

Of course, hovering and multi-deleting is OK----it just makes the person sticking hi/r neck out there into a lightening rod. Which is fine if that's what you want.  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 07:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I see your misunderstanding. Take a look at the "proper" flow at WP:BRD. If an addition is contentious (as yours have been), it is the responsibility of the proposing editor to take it to the talk page. It is bad wikiquette to try to edit war to force an addition that (so far) only a single editor has supported. Event though it is your job as editor proposing addition to discuss it, in a fullness of WP:AGF, I have brought it here on your behalf. LotLE×talk 08:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as they say, Lulu, concerning our respective styles of contributing. Still, take my feedback FWIW. I see somebody who rides herd on things you just don't like, even when they're not obviously improper; so, you play the Label Game. That is, you so convince yourself of Zogby's Controversiality, you think it a slam dunk to revert-and-rerevert with no need for others' input, even on a page with a history of warring----with you as a not-incidental participant! (Your right to do.) Then you begin the verbal onslaught to color your actions as merely expedient against somebody you label The Other, the Opponent of Virtue, of some kind, eg by coming to "Talk" and saying that my plural contributions are "controversial," but only bringing to this page the example of Zogby. Which generalizing, in my belief, is an m.o. of a controversialist. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's the rep you desire.)  ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Justmeherenow (  ) 09:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

You have misunderstood, I am afraid, Justmeherenow. I have no claim about Zogby being controversial. The edits you made adding his comments are controversial. This controversy is self-proven by the sentiment of another editor (me) that the material is not proper for inclusion in the article. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any external politics of whether the inclusion is left or right, pro- or con-, or whatever; it simply a matter of whether there is lack of dispute for the new material's encyclopedic value. The burden for addition of new material is always on the editor proposing addition. LotLE×talk 18:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Cultural and political image

To clear up some dispute here, and for better organization, I've created a new article, Cultural and political image of Barack Obama. That parallels the Cultural and Political image of John McCain article, which seems to be functioning well. If people agree that this is the right thing to do, then we can go ahead and condense the treatment here and expand that other article. The new article clearly needs a better lead but my creative energies are low. What do you think? - Wikidemo (talk) 20:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Please stop blocking criticism of Obama

I remember when we had a lot more editors actively taking part on this page. Many good editors have been driven off. We have also seen one of the editors who were blocking all criticism of Obama, abandoning a long-term account of many years because he was concerned that he would be outed. I suspect the information that would have been revealed was that he was linked in some manner to the Obama campaign or the Democratic Party.

Others were helping him, however, and using tactics that were not in WP's best traditions or best interests: and by the time Rick Block called the question after offering a drastically shortened version of the Rezko material, they were the only ones left to vote.

Please stop blocking material that may cause Obama to be criticized. You know that compared to George W. Bush, Tony Blair on the day it became a Featured Article, and other WP biographies about similarly situated politicians, this article contains a severe shortage of anything that resembles criticism, but you continue to employ every trick and stratagem in the book to block its introduction.

I am inviting Scjessey, LotLE and Noroton to join me in mediation.

If you are blocking criticism solely for the sake of blocking criticism:

Please stop. Examine your motives. Compare this biography to other biographies about similar people, and allow this article to reflect WP:WELLKNOWN: if it is notable and well-sourced, it belongs in the article, even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. WorkerBee74 (talk) 14:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, I didn't "call the question". I suggested a shortened version, a variant of which was introduced by this edit, not made by me. I actually didn't notice this edit until several days later. I'll also note that the reason the long term editor left is not precisely known and your supposition about the reason has no basis in fact. Some editors here make no particular effort to hide their real world identities. Some editors apparently go to great lengths such as creating a WP:SPA and using it only from what they know are untraceable IP addresses. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Starting this section is an auspicious way audaciousto return to the article after a week-long block for incivility and wikigaming. I suggest we either ignore it, or close it as incitement not reasonably directed to improving the article, and ask editors not to incite things by using the talk pages to complain about other editors. Wikidemo (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

... your supposition about the reason has no basis in fact. Well, he was fighting like hell to keep anything that resembled criticism out of an article about a very prominent Democratic politician, using false accusations as a primary method of debate; and then someone did a search and discovered that he had a COI. Very abruptly, he stopped fighting like hell and went into hiding (WP equivalent). That's a pretty good basis in fact. Actions speak louder than words. It's likely that he was a Democratic Party operative, and it's possible that he differed from other Democratic Party operatives on this page only in his lack of discretion about covering his tracks.

... an auspicious way to return to this article ... I'm asking for mediation. Let's see whether anyone would like to resolve this through mediation, Wikidemo. Would you be interested in that? Or do you like the way things have been going on this page? WorkerBee74 (talk) 19:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I do not think mediation would be productive. That seems like yet more wikigaming and prolonging an already-resolved issue, and by opening the matter with the above statement attacking other editors you're pretty much guaranteeing that the process will be contentious. Your contributions to this page have been disruptive in the long term. It would go far to improve conditions on the page were you to stop editing here, as has been proposed a number of times at AN/I. Wikidemo (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

(after ec) - I'm not clear on exactly what you are seeking mediation on. I was not aware of any existing content dispute that you have been involved with. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

... already-resolved issue ... If you think this is resolved, you've got another think coming. We haven't even started talking about Ayers yet, the ACORN material is following the same tired pattern of disagree/ provoke/ report, and the Rezko paragraph will inevitably be reopened no later than September 3, when he gets sentenced and the 527s start Swiftboating Obama for it. I'd like to resolve all of these content disputes amicably, under the supervision of a large group of people experienced in dispute resolution; so that they can see for themselves who's really gaming the system, and who's really got the best interests of the WP project as their only agenda. WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no "disagree / provoke / report" pattern - that accusation is just more of the rancor you're bringing to the article. I trust the "another think coming" isn't going to be from you. If one or more seasoned editors / administrators were willing to moderate this article and its talk page that might help. However, to date they all seem to think conditions here are too contentious for them to do any good. A formal mediation process removed from this discussion page, with the contentious editors at the table who should have been topic banned already, seems unlikely to do any good either. Wikidemo (talk) 20:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The disagree/ provoke/ report pattern is well established here; and now everyone can see who is offering mediation, who is refusing it, and who is claiming that others "should have been topic banned already." WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Visiting Service members in Combat Zone / War zone

Obama came to the combat and for some reason people are not allowing it. My personal opinion they are McCain supportors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronjohn (talk • contribs) 18:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, please be civil when talking to other Wikipedians. Your edits are being reverted because of Misplaced Pages policies, such as WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:WEIGHT. There is no political motivation involved. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict - addressed to Ronjohn) You seem to be a little inexperienced about Misplaced Pages. Please note the assume good faith and no personal attacks policies. Also, you've inserted the material 5 times in the last few minutes which means your account is subject to a block at any time - best to promise that you won't do it again if you want to avoid that. We don't know for sure how anyone is going to vote; few here have announced there political positions. But if it helps, if you look at the article history the three people who have objected to the material are citing value-neutral objections (trivial, not news), and have also objected to the inclusion of biased anti-Obama material in the article as well. Wikidemo (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

A US Senator visiting a combat zone where people die not notable Im confused as to how that is trival. if this is so trival why is there a picture of him up playing with deployed service members in 2006 when he visited us at Camp Arifjan before. There's not even a vote in process you guys just keep deleting it without even creating a discussion. --Ron John (talk) 18:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikinews is an excellent place to work on user-editable descriptions of current events. I believe that with the unified login system, you should be able to access it using the same user account that you've established on WP. LotLE×talk 18:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I've just removed a non-free image (with an incorrectly cited reference) that is related to this news story. I recommend that Ron John seeks to build a consensus here before making any more changes to the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

1. . TheSpec.com. 2008-07-15 http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/402837. Retrieved 2008-07-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
2. . Marie Claire. 2008-07-16 http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/world/266893/barack-obama-new-yorker-cover-branded-tasteless.html. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
3. "Democrats' bus heads South to sign up new voters". The Boston Globe. 2008-07-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
4. ^ Jonathan Darman, Glow Fading?, Newsweek online exclusive (11 July 2008).
5. Poll: Obama extends national lead over McCain, Associated Press (11 July 2008).
6. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/politics/bal-te.magazine15jul15,0,4906395.story